Where we stand on Calvinism, Arminianism and Some Other Words You May Not Know

In this episode, Dan and Scott have a discussion about where we stand on the controversial subject of Calvinism and Arminianism.  What is the definition of these terms? Why is there disagreement and are there other options?

Join us as we discuss these topics. And please note, we are not going to put to rest a controversy that has existed for hundreds of years. We want to let people know where we and Broad Creek Christian Church stands on the subject. 

Shownotes:

https://soteriology101.com/about-2/statement-of-faith/

Produced, edited and hosted by Scott Askew and Dan Daugherty

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:19

Hey everybody, this is the Creekcast with Scott and Dan. It's a pleasure to be with you. Uh, this week we are discussing a topic that has um been brought to us. Well, as far as the podcast goes, it's been brought to us quite a few times, but in our careers, it's been brought to us quite a few times as well. Um, yeah, we're gonna be talking about um Calvinism and Armenianism and um a an aspect of belief called provisionism, which um Dan and I have kind of it's funny, Dan and I agree on our ideas on this, but we never really could find a true word for it. Right and um uh because we yeah, it just really couldn't agree on a word. And uh we kind of found found this and studying it. So uh I really like it. And I'm gonna let Dan talk about that later. Dan, how are you doing, bud? Good, good. Good, excellent. The word for the day is sodiorology. So yes, that's a good word. Soturoology, yeah. So we'll um uh we will deal you in or you can go right now and Google it. And Google it and maybe you'll know ahead of time.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

And and you can let us like should we tell them what it means? I I think we can tell them later. Or no, we can tell them now.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

Well, no, give them a chance. Let's tell them later. I was gonna say, give them a chance. Yeah, give them a chance. And uh we'll let you guys simmer on it. Yeah, you you're like you know, minimizing the podcast right now, trying to get to you know your website. So shut the podcast off. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you do that, then yeah, that would you just have to come back. Um sinners. Dan said it. I did not. And interestingly enough, that word has to do with sin and salvation uh and other things. So anyway, uh we will uh we will definitely talk about that. Um we do want to get into it today, and before we we jump in with with both feet, um I thought a lot about how I really wanted to talk about um the aspect of Calvinism. And um, Dan, you know this. I've taught to you before. When I was in high school, I dated a girl who went to a uh Christian reform church, and I was able to go and be a part of their church, part of their youth program. Um I had the best youth leaders that I could have ever asked for in high school. They cared about us, they loved us, they taught us, they spent time with us, uh, we hung out at their house. I mean, we just I at one point one of the leaders actually built like a shed. It wasn't a shed, it was a little house, and we could all just go back there and play and and hang out and play games, and it was just fun. And I I had the best experience, but I sometimes we get in conversations about Calvinism uh versus what I grew up as, which was in the Christian, just the Christian church, and uh kind of uh we describe it sometimes as Baptist light. Um and uh but which it is, it's very close to Diabaptist. And um, and uh, and and so we just grew up, we didn't grow up with a hierarchy. We Broad Creek, our church right now, does not have a hierarchy, um, uh other than Christ Himself. Um and so, you know, it was great because I got the best of I think both worlds, and I was educated in something where no one hated me and no one told me I was going to hell because I didn't believe the way they did. They truly cared. We had conversations, I never jumped on board with Calvinism. It it was just something that um that I I never did. And so growing up, of course, going to Bible college, I I became very educated on Calvinism. And then I came to Broad Creek and uh in my 23rd, second or third year of ministry, 21st, 22nd year of ministry. And here I met a a different kind of um Calvinist. Um and and it was I don't know, man, it it was amazing to me how aggressive uh they were and how um uh I don't know, off-putting they could be over something that, in my opinion, is not an essential. Right. And I don't believe I don't, I'm not saying they're going to hell, but they were very quick to label me a heretic and say, you know, that I was teaching poorly, and um it wasn't just one voice, it was multiple voices. And they're all scattered now, they're in different places, and and honestly, I've prayed for their success. Uh it took me a while because I was upset about it. Um, but um, I I do pray for their success, and I pray that, you know, even if they hold on to this belief that they're not gonna be quite as aggressive with others, and uh, because it hurt, it really did hurt. And anytime I think we hurt people with our faith, I think we need to take a step back and go, wait a minute, is this what Christ would have us do? So um, but anyway, I I just wanted to say to the people, if you ever listen to this and you were part of my upbringing at um at Teresia Christian Reformed Church, I really appreciate you. And I I love you, uh youth leaders, um, Billy and Diane, Ken and Irene, and and um Jessica and Nelson. Um I'm not sure even if they're still with us. They were they were older back then. They may still be. I hope so. I haven't talked to them in many years. But um just thanks. Thanks for loving me despite my my different ideas and uh different beliefs. Thank you for not condemning me for that. But I just wanted to start with that um and and just say that I I I have many brothers and sisters who are Calvinists who I believe um uh in in faith. I believe that their their savior is Jesus Christ and that they're going to to be okay in the long run. But um, it's just the beauty of the uh the difference that we can hold in Christ, the liberty that we have to do such things because of the grace and mercy of Jesus Christ, as long as we hold on to the essentials. And um so uh Dan, um I'm sorry to start off that way, but I was I really appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 6:05

You know, your your experience with it is is what it what it is, and I'm glad you had that. And I I didn't get introduced to Calvinism really until I was in college. So we started talking about it as you know, uh a belief system, and you know, it was always a a knotty word. Yeah, yeah in our b at our Bible colleges. Yeah, yeah. You know, you don't you don't talk You always kind of turned your head to the left and kind of squinted a little, yeah, you know, but it's like no, it's it's uh it's one of those where I have a large circle of different types of Christians that I deal with on a regular basis, uh just in academia. Yeah. And so um a lot of close friends that I've gone to to my through my master's and PhD with that have challenged me, professors that have challenged me that aren't uh necessarily in agree that I'm not in agreement with on on this issue, right um, but cause me to think and think for myself. Um and then the the select few that I'm I'm friends with that um are jerks about it, you know, and and it and it's just a shame because like like it's it doesn't have to be such a dividing point. No, and so our goal here today is not to come across as crass or right or or what whatever. We just want to present to you what these are and allow you and then even give you a couple different ideas um um and you know who we are as a church is we're not cal we're not a Calvinist church. No. Um but if you're a Calvinist that comes to our church, you are more than welcome. And we love you. We love you. You know, we want to we want to have good discussion, yeah. We want to serve together, we want to edify one another. Yes, um, you are welcome here. Absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:59

And I I think that's a wonderful way to say it because we are not going to draw lines um over these things. I recently had a discussion with someone from our church. Um we had um talked about um eternal security, and um eternal security is the the it's the pea in the tulip that will talk about um uh the preserv uh preservation of the saints, perseverance of the saints, yeah. And um, and so we have this um thing in Calvinism where they say that if you are truly saved, you can never be unsaved. Um and and so while Dan and I both believe in eternal security in Christ, we we do believe that if it long time from now, and it can't just happen, it's not just something, but if you were to decide that you weren't a Christian and you hated God and everything else, then that is up to you and God, and that's gonna be something that you have to deal with. I believe that the power of Jesus Christ is so efficacious and so big and so powerful that if you are a Christian, you will never want to give it away. No, and so the idea of ever letting it go really shouldn't be a question. Right, right. You you are eternally secure. That's right. You are gonna be eternally secure no matter what you do in that sense. As long as you love Christ, hold on to him. You know, even in the sense of if you walk away for a while, and we could get into this forever, but our idea, he he disagreed with me, and he said, I don't know if I need, and I haven't even told you this, and um, I need to tell you tell you this out, but I love him. And he said, uh, I don't know if I agree with you in this, so maybe I shouldn't be a part of what we're doing here. And I said, No, brother. I said, no, no, no. You should be a part of it. I said, we need to talk about these things, we need to sharpen each other, and we need to love each other through these things. And I love it that he was bold enough to say it. I love it that he was humble enough to put himself in that position, but that's also what makes him great material for a future leader here at Broad Creek because it's going to be something that, and he said, Well, I I feel disqualified. I said, No, not at all. I said, No. I said, We can we can differ on these things. It's okay. And so, um, yeah, I mean, there are things that Dan and I will put our feet down and we will stand on until Jesus himself returns. But um, these are not going to be things that I'm gonna die on a hill over. Um there's too many other important things too. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 10:19

Yeah, and it and it's important that we we understand that we're um that this podcast, first of all, is is primarily for our people at Broad Creek. It's for Broad Creek. Um that's why we started it. We we we get a lot of questions uh on a on a regular um and sometimes there are deep questions that we can't give an answer to in a in a 10-minute conversation we have on a Sunday morning.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Because our classes are structured, it's hard to diverge, and the sermons are planned out for a long time. And so we felt like this would be a better format.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

So uh we're able to take an hour and and give you some stuff that we've studied and and what we know and what we don't know. Right. Um and so so if you're not a part of Broad Creek and you're listening to us, thank you. We we appreciate that. That's awesome. But when we're when we're talking, we're you know, we're we have you in mind. Um but but what's foremost on our on our thought process is the people we deal with uh week in and week out. Yes. Um and so um as we talk about this, you know, we we welcome you know the fan mail stuff and the questions and it's never fan mail, it's just questions. But that's okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Um I haven't got a coffee card yet. But anyway, um not bitter about that at all. Yeah, no, not at all. But but we you know we we want to have dialogue, but you know, if you're if you're out of the if you're out of the the scope of who we deal with on a regular basis, we're gonna try to get to your questions, but we're gonna take our questions of of the people that we deal with on a regular basis first. That's right. Um and whoever you know gave us this first fan mail question about Calvinism, um, don't know if you're a part of our church or not, um, but uh you just so happen to get put in this queue because we have a lot of other people even in our own church that have questions about this.

SPEAKER_00 12:06

Yeah, we've received other fan mail as well. I think one from I believe it was Pennsylvania, somebody. Oh yeah. So um yeah, so that and that's important to us to make sure, and I Dan's exactly right. We we want the people of Broad Creek to know what we we we have a statement of beliefs. Um we're actually going through a process right now of uh um doing all of our SOP, the standards of procedures, and everything else that we do. Um we're writing every we're getting everything rewritten down, written down so that we can have it all in a in a guide. So if people ask, what is your you know, statement of faith? Well, we have it online, but we want to make sure that we're accurate and so we're redoing that. That's right. And uh, and so this is we use the podcast to kind of say, listen, this is if you heard this in a sermon, this is what we mean by it. And and um, so yeah, if you don't come to Broad Creek, we still love you and we have you in mind, but it is directly.

SPEAKER_01 12:57

And and again, you know, we you we're a part of the broader body of Christ. That's exactly right. Um and if you don't have a church family and you're not going to church anywhere, I mean check us out. Yeah, we'd love to have you. Love to have you if you're in there to have you.

SPEAKER_00 13:09

And uh I I I feel like it's a I feel like it's a really good place. And uh not because of me. They were good before either Dan or I got here. They were a really good church. So um we were a really good church. Um all right, so let's jump in. Uh I think defining Calvinism first, and um uh and then we'll jump into um kind of where Dan and I fall in this um theology of salvation, and uh we will and we'll talk about that word and uh we will we will get there for that. So um in Calvinism, there's basically we have this idea of a tulip. Um now when I first heard this, of course, I was at a at a Christian reformed church that was largely um formed and populated by Dutch uh reformed tulips tulips. And so it was very easy to remember because the biggest tulip farm on the east coast was about a mile down the road on the right, and it was beautiful. I love tulips. Oh my gosh, it was so gorgeous. And then and then they found out that they could they could buy the tulips from the Netherlands and it was cheaper to ship them here and and and present them. And and I didn't blame them. They still grow things out there in the spring, you can ride over there, and it's beautiful, it really is. But I'm gonna have to do that. Oh, yeah, it's it's it's a beautiful place. Flatland, black dirt, big canals, and a bunch of pretty flowers. So uh it's it's worth going to see. It really is. Just a nice little day trip. And if you go early and go by acre station meat farm and get a big old cheese and sausage biscuit, and you your world would be changed. So um in more than one way. In one way, yeah, yeah. And yeah, you'll need a you'll need a a place to stop later. So anyway, um, the doctrines. The doctrines of Calvinism um can be summed up basically in those five major points. So you got T-U-L-I-P. So the T uh in the tulip stands for total depravity. This is the idea that um sin has affected every part of man, the heart, emotions, will, mind, and body. All of it is affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we would be, um, but as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin. And Calvinism maintains that because of our fallen nature, we are born again, not by our own will, but by God's will. Yeah. We do not have the ability to call out to God according to total depravity. We are so depraved that we cannot acknowledge God, our need for God, or anything, unless God Himself intervenes with that faith spark in us to turn to Him. So, therefore, if let's say Dan and I were just normal people and um total depravity was a thing, uh, then God may determine to ignite and intervene in Dan's life, but he may choose to never do so in mine. So therefore, Dan would be on his road to salvation, and I would never have a chance at it. Would you I think that's a decent definition?

SPEAKER_01 16:01

Yeah, that's a great assessment.

SPEAKER_00 16:03

So um uh yeah, that's that's total depravity. Um the scripture clearly uh states that uh for us that that we have an ability to call upon the Lord. Um, but of course, tr total depravity says we do not. And so um that's the T. Anything else to add to that? Uh no. Okay. Um unconditional election is the you. Um unconditional election is is the idea um that we are chosen to be saved irregardless of what we do, irregardless of who we are or where we come from, that God chooses to save us, whether we originally even wanted to be or not. In other words, he he instills us with this idea of salvation um first and foremost to point us in that direction. In other words, God chooses we do not. Based on his will, you have no choice in the matter. Right. It's it's free will is completely out of the out of the and we'll get back to free will in the I with irresistible grace, but yeah, um, because irresistible grace is how God accomplishes this. Um so but this is the um uh measure of it. So yeah, the you is unconditional election. He elects you to be saved, um, whether you wanted to be or not originally, and he it's his choice, not ours. And of course that brings up a lot of problems because the one that always gets me then and and is the fact that then God does create people with the full knowledge. One of the hardest questions of Christianity to answer is why does God create people that he knows is never going to choose him? We get that quite often. And and the answer to that is that love has to offer a choice, and that God's love, you know, should woo us to the place where we want to be holy, we want to be made righteous, and that should draw us to God, who alone can make it so through Jesus Christ. We don't have any other option to go through to salvation other than Jesus. But um, and and man has a choice in that man can choose not to be with God for eternity. But what um what what this says, uh, you know, uh this election idea, this that unconditional election, says that God actually creates people with the sole purpose of them suffering for eternity. He ne he knows he's going to create them and never give them a chance to know him, and yet they and they will suffer for eternity in that sense. And so it really brings up a lot of problems.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

And we we were discussing this earlier because we hadn't really heard it called this. We're familiar with that, but we until recently we never heard the idea of uh what they call it, double uh double um uh oh crud double predestination. Double predestined predestination. Basically meaning that he predestines those who will be saved and he predestined those who will actually uh eternally be separated from God.

SPEAKER_00 19:09

Yep. That God actively chooses specific individuals to receive grace and God passes over others choosing not to save them. Right. Which results, of course, in their condemnation. Yeah. So yes, uh 100%, and that's where the idea of predestination and foreknowledge come in. And of course, uh the Calvinists would say, and that we'll probably go over this again, but the Calvinists would say that predestination is fact in the Bible. It is predest predestination is everywhere. It's list in the Bible's everywhere. Yep. God predestines the nation of Israel to bring Jesus into the book of Israel. I'll talk about it over and over again over and over again. We cannot deny that, yeah, we cannot deny that predestination is in the Bible, but we we never see the predestination to salvation of an individual such as Daniel or David or Abraham or anybody. Um, but we do see the predestination idea uh in different places that people are saved due to God predestining them. And the idea here though is that he does that due to his foreknowledge. It says he predestines us according to his foreknowledge, and that foreknowledge is really important because God sees the present just like he sees the past and the future. And so it's possible that we can say that God chooses us because we chose him, um, if you're talking in literal chronological terms. Um, but but yes, God is um, and correct me if you if I say anything wrong, Dan, please. Um, but um the the idea of God, you know, choosing us is based on his foreknowledge that we will choose him. Right. And so anything else there?

SPEAKER_01 20:48

Yeah, I I was just gonna add that quote that I read to you earlier. Um this this guy I was reading, and I never really thought I I've always answered it this way, but I never I never really formed this question. But he said, Am I saved because I chose God or because God chose me? Yes. Yeah, that's I mean, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:07

That's that's a good answer. And it's a great question. And and that's something that Dan and I have done through this study getting ready for this, is we've been able to put a few words to things that we've always believed. Yeah. Um, not that we thought we had original ideas or that we created this. Again, we're not gonna solve any problems for anybody. No, we're just making a statement of where we stand, right? And and we get that. But um, to be able to put quotes and words and ideas to it feels good. It does feel good because it means that you know we're not we don't feel like we're off base with what we believe and and how we have been taught and interpret scripture. And so uh we feel like we're accurate, but uh, of course, someone will come along and say we're gonna do that. And that's okay. It's okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

We can we can talk about it or talk about it. That's right. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

The L limited atonement. Jesus died only for the elect. In other words, when Jesus Jesus died on the cross. God made it so that Jesus did not die for this for the sins of all the world, of every person who would ever live. That he only died for the people whom God would choose to have salvation. And this limited atonement is of course a little, you know, it's a problem. It's a real problem. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:26

I mean, just John 3.16 sticks out, you know, for God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son.

SPEAKER_02 22:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 22:31

Um so when you think about that, and and they'll tell you that's just the world does not mean the world. And it does, it's man. It of course it means the world. But I I didn't say it. You did. I know. Yeah. Sorry. So there's there's a lot of um there's a lot of issues that with that. Um anyway, go ahead. We're trying I have to understand if we had a camera here, you'd be able to see my face.

SPEAKER_00 22:59

You have to understand, guys, that we've been we've been we've both been raked over the fire for stuff like this. Yes. And and it's not that we feel like we're in a minority position or that we're wrong. It's just after a while, when you get hit in the face enough with something, you I hate it, but you tend to you tend to put up walls. Even when Dan and I are sitting across from each other and completely agree with each other, we know that people will listen to this and disagree. And and again, I'm I want I want you to know that I love you if that's the case. But again, when you're punched in the if you if you if I go home and and hit my dog and hit my dog repeatedly, and I get up tomorrow and I rush at my dog, he's she's not gonna think I'm rushing at her to hook her. Right. She's gonna think I'm rushing at her to hit her. And and that's that aggressiveness is something that should just shouldn't exist. And so anyway, I'll get off my soapbox. Um 2 Corinthians 5, 14 and 15 from the New American Standard says, For the love of Christ controls us. Oh, there's you know, there's control. Having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died, and he died for all, so that they who live might no longer live for themselves, but for him who died and rose again on their behalf. And so um Jesus died for all, and uh that's what we believe. Um, and we'll get come to that again. But limited atonement says that Jesus only died for those whom God is going to choose. Right. Um anything else there?

SPEAKER_01 24:20

Uh we we just gotta remember he's the atoning sacrifice Christ is Christ is uh and it's for the sins of the entire world. Yeah, um he died um that anyone who would repent, not just ask Jesus into their heart. Yeah, uh that doesn't exist really. It doesn't and I and I know if you if you're at Broad Creek, I've hammered that away a lot personally the times I got a couple weeks ago when I preached. I think that just it just creates a uh a problem when we say, I'd ask Jesus into my heart. Uh, but did you repent of your sin? Right. I mean that you know that that's what the Bible's calling us to.

SPEAKER_00 25:00

Asking Jesus in our heart is a part of it. Right. It's it's an invitation, right? Uh and an acceptance of an invitation.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

But it's repent and believe. Right. Uh, and so like his death uh it is effectual his affects everything, yeah. And so and everyone. Yeah. And so the atonement is unlimited in that it for it forgives and provides a sufficient uh a sufficiency for sins. Right, right. It's it's for everyone in the history of all the world. Uh and so so we have to, you know, it's not limited just to select people. Right. Again, uh a true Calvinist would would disagree with that. Yep. And that's okay. Um, because like we'll I'll mention in a bit, uh, even Calvinists can't agree with each other on that. So that's right. No, that's good.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Um the I in tulip stands for irresistible grace. So when God calls a person, they can't resist it. Right. Um, he his grace is irresistible. In other words, it's it's like uh I heard one uh uh one writer wrote about it was like uh the love potion in the Harry Potter movies, that it just made you fall and made you fall. You couldn't, you cannot resist it. It your your will goes out the door. Um and and that's uh that that violates, of course, again, free will, right? Um, where we don't have free will. Um I'm I remember Joshua 24 where he says, Um, you know, you choose today who you're gonna follow. You choose. Uh yeah, it's it's for me in my house, we serve the Lord. That's right. We're going to go, but you get to choose. And I love how Caleb, just a side note, Caleb, who's not an Israelite, um, he's like 80 years old at this point. And he he like hikes up his stuff in his, you know, he girds up his loins and he grabs his sword and his shield, and he's like running across the way. You got it, man. You gotta love a dude like Caleb. And uh that's a man. And so uh you follow that dude anywhere. But but no, the irresistible grace is something that we cannot resist, is uh according to a Calvinist. That that uh when God calls you, you cannot turn it, you cannot say, No, I don't want it. The grace is too irresistible, and God saves you. Just look at look at Paul.

SPEAKER_01 27:08

Paul's a great example. Yeah, uh clearly God is calling Paul. Yep. But what is Paul resists, he resists completely, and it takes it takes an act of God, literally, to open his eyes by making him blind. That's right, right? Leaving him that way the truth, man.

SPEAKER_00 27:26

That's right. Three days.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

And so, and so uh e even even Paul, I mean, this this great person of of Christ, which he was Saul at the time, and by the way, his name change is not anything to do with right personality. It's it was just there's a Hebrew and then there's a Greek. Yeah. So the Greek was Paul, the Hebrew was Saul. Anyway, um, that's a side note. Um but the butt even Paul was resisting. And so God is able to open his eyes eventually by closing his eyes. Right. And so, um, yeah. So I I think of Jonah.

SPEAKER_00 28:02

Why the whole why the whole rigma role? Right, if if Jonah and and of course I think a Calvinist would say, well, there there can be resistance, but resistance is choice. Resistance is always choice. That's right. And if God is sovereign in the Calvinist scheme, then then God chooses what we do. Jonah would have never had a choice to run the way he did, and to have to be swallowed by a fish, and to have to be convinced, and then have to be spit up, and then there's there's no reason for all that. And um uh so yeah, there there's just too many examples in the Bible. Of course, again, a Calvinist could rebut those because they they study hard and they know how to rebut those things um to try to make sense of it. But again, Dan's gonna fill you in on a couple of things here in a second that that uh talks about um why why there's problems in that too, in the divisions of Calvinism. Uh the last uh letter is is P Perseverance of the Saints. Um and this says you cannot in any way lose your salvation. Um once God chooses to save you and does save you, you have no choice but to be and remain saved for eternity. And the the thing that again, I I'm if I had to choose one of the points of Calvinism, I would choose this one. Yeah. Um that I'm I'm I'm closest to this. Um I believe it's very hard to lose your salvation. Um uh of course a Calvinist would say if you lose your salvation, you were never a uh Christian in the first place. And I would, you know, I I get that. I mean, there's there's I think there's right.

SPEAKER_01 29:31

I I I just wouldn't call it perseverance of the saints, but I would call it eternal security. Good.

SPEAKER_00 29:35

And now I think that's the way we should.

SPEAKER_01 29:37

I mean, you know, uh in reality, that this perseverance of the saints, uh it really does denote it just in that statement, uh a work that you have to do in order to to keep that salvation. Right. Um, I believe 100%, and and so and and and we'll get into this in a minute. I I'm there's not th there's things in Calvism that I agree with.

SPEAKER_00 29:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

Um, and so um and and we'll we'll talk about that in a bit. And there's things in things in the other thing that I agree with that we'll talk about. But anyway, um this perseverance of the saint, like like you have nothing to do with salvation. Right. When you when you repent and believe, and you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ, that is all him. Right. And so there's these things called the five solas. And one of the solas is uh uh uh sola christas, which is Christ alone. He is the only way we're saved.

SPEAKER_00 30:38

Right.

SPEAKER_01 30:38

Uh sola uh uh gratia, which is grace alone. He he is he's it's only by his grace that we're saved. And so so we we agree with Calvinism in this in this way that you can't lose your like you can't lose your salvation. God's not just gonna say, man, uh that cigarette you smoked. I'm not saying smoking's a sin, by the way. I'm just I'm just using, you know, and you and you told me that you wouldn't do that again. So I'm sorry, I'm gonna send you to hell. Right. That's not how that works.

SPEAKER_00 31:11

It becomes a spanking board, basically. Right. Right. When we believe right, because we were both taught the same thing. Yes. Be careful, little eyes, what you see. Yes. Be careful, little hands, what you do. For the father up above is looking down in love. And and that's almost like, oh my gosh, we have a we have big brother watching us all the time. And we do. God sees everything we do. But the aspect of that song and the teaching was that when we do one thing wrong, God is going to slap us.

SPEAKER_01 31:38

I I had a kid, I had a kid in uh in my ministry in Utah when I was doing youth ministry there, um, who came up to me one day and he was in tears. And I said, I said, What man, what's going on? He said, I'm going to hell. I said, What makes you say that? He said, Because I had a rough week this week and and I made a lot of bad choices and I sinned. I was like, Then I'm going to hell. Yeah, I was gonna say that we were. And he looked at me and I said, I said, Who who told you that? But he had he had been pounded into his head so much that be careful, your God's gonna yank your salvation away. Yeah, and that's dangerous. We have a lot of kids and a lot of young adults and adults walking on eggshells because they've been told that uh you willy-nilly can just lose your salvation. And that's not the case. God will not take your salvation away from you. Nothing can separate you from the love of God, neither height nor depth. This is Romans we're talking about here, okay? Uh, and so nor angels, nor demons, nor any other power can separate you from the love of God, right? Um, because that's God's love, it's his salvation he's giving. That's right. However, I believe you can reach a point in your life to say, I don't want you anymore. Yeah. And God honors that choice. Yeah. But that's a really hard place to get to. And I would, and I would, I would agree in part with the Calvinistic view of then I don't believe you really understood the grace of God to begin with.

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Maybe, maybe you were a recipient of great gifts, right? But you never understood the nature of those gifts because again, like you said, like you said earlier, when you experience the grace of Jesus Christ, truly, you'll you won't ever want to give that back. And that's why Hebrews 6, 4, for it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift and have shared in the Holy Spirit, which honestly a sharing of the Holy Spirit has to be a salvation, you know, point.

SPEAKER_01 33:36

I mean, we'll see the Spirit of God, if without the Spirit of God, you're not saved.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

That's exactly right. So um, so who have tasted the heavenly gift, salvation, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, salvation, and have tasted the goodness of the Word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away to restore them again to repentance. And so we get this, you know, this shouting from Hebrews that says, look, if you if you you know claim that then and you are a Christian, and I I agree with Dan, I I think either you never fully understood or you somehow just man, you really turned your heart. But I don't think it's something that you lose on a random Tuesday. Yeah. It's not something that you know these kids I remember I said excuse me, I said the Lord's name in vain in third grade. God followed by the word damn.

SPEAKER_01 34:22

And um my grandpa used to tell me sorry, God didn't damn it, the beaver did. All right, you're great. Yeah, that was that's pretty good. That was and so that's always so anyway. Go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

No, I mean interrupted. I remember I said it. I I uh the principal of the school heard me say it, and uh I was with a friend, and he took me in his office. He was a Baptist lay minister, and uh he took me in his office and he stared at me for what seemed like forever, and then he said, You understand that you committed the unforgivable sin. Oh my gosh. And I said, He's one of those. Yeah, and I said, I'm sorry. And he said, You took the Lord, you you took the Lord's name in vain. That's the unforgivable sin. Well, dude, I'm in third grade. Right. And I'm going, oh my gosh. You're going to hell. I'm going to hell. So for like, let's see, that was in a handbasket. Oh, yeah. I had no no chance. Yeah. I mean, I had no chance. From eight years old to about 14 or 15, I'm thinking, well, why am I even going to jail? I might as well do whatever I want. And I and yet I was a decently good person. So I would, but me. That's because your dad would have whooped you. Oh, yeah, dad would have killed me. And uh, and and so and he he would have told me uh that. But um, then I had a youth leader in that in the Christian Reformed Church. And I went and told him, I said, Man, when I was in third grade, I said this, and and he just laughed. He was just laughing his head off. And I was like, what is so funny? And he said, That's not what that means. And he opened up the Bible and he explained it to me. And I was, it was such a freedom from that. But for years, I was embedded with this idea that everything I did had this just broke my relationship completely with God because of who I was. So when I learned that, I became a Christian, an actual Christian soon after. I repented of my sins, I accepted Jesus Christ, I was baptized in Him. And it was the beginning of a difficult walk for me to begin with, and maybe through the years, it it's been off and on. But, you know, as I grow in Christ, I understand that my little misgivings and faults, while I don't want to do them, and I know that they're not what God wants of me, they don't disqualify me from the grace of God. And the grace of the grace of Jesus Christ is much larger than any sin that I can commit. And and as I walk with him and and and move with him, I don't have to worry about losing my salvation because I did one thing, right, you know, or two things, or even over an amount of time doing something, it's that's not how it works. No.

SPEAKER_01 36:53

The salvation of Jesus is and praise the Lord for that because we'd all be going to hell. Oh, and we'd all be in hell. Honestly, like like none have there's not a week that goes by that I I can't look back at something and say, man, I really screwed up there. Yeah, absolutely. Like, like if I were God, I wouldn't let I wouldn't let me in. You know, like like I'm looking at that going, that was pretty bad. You know, you are stupid. Yeah, what are you doing? But the the reality begins to to set in after I I have that thought of like, man, God's God's grace is like Paul says, is sufficient for me. It is. And so um it's not by my works that I'm saved anyway, it's by God's holy and uh holiness and his grace. That's right. And so I just gotta submit to him and say, you know, and and and repent. Yeah. Okay. There's that word again. Yeah. Repent, name the sin in your repentance, and then move forward.

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Yeah. And that doesn't mean that you're gonna get every sin either. No. It doesn't mean that you're gonna ask for forgiveness for every little thing that you do wrong. But the heart. I would, I would again, I would be praying a long time. I mean, I would pray without ceasing.

SPEAKER_01 37:58

And so we oh yeah, God, I did this, this you already know that though.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

God's going, okay, okay. Um, but no, no, not really. We what we have, you know, I think it's important at this point also to talk about the nature of forgiveness and the way forgiveness works, because between humans, let's say uh Dan does something wrong uh to me, and I just look at Dan and I say, Man, I forgive you. Well, whether Dan accepts that forgiveness or not is up to him. I mean, it he can either he can choose to I've chosen in my heart that I am not going to hold it against him. That's right. He's my brother, I'm not going to hold it against him. I love him, and I'm not gonna do it. Now, if he chooses not to accept that forgiveness and hold, hold whatever he wants to against me, or still not like me, or do it to me again, right? That's up to him. And I've always felt like that was kind, and I I think I could go through scripture and but that's that idea of um not unlimited atonement, or not limited atonement, but unlimited atonement, where God offers it to anyone, but whether they accept it or not is up to them. That's right. And it wraps into this idea um as well as perseverance of the saints, because you know, I I I want that forgiveness. I desire that forgiveness. I know I'm broken without that forgiveness, and so I have that forgiveness in Jesus Christ. I have for many, many years for most of my life now, and uh it, but it's not because of me, it's because of Christ. Right.

SPEAKER_01 39:19

And you know I we were we just went through uh in our elders' meetings, we we do a training for um men that we we look at and say, hey, you know, these these men have uh great leadership qualities and abilities, and maybe they can be future elders. And so we know we and it's it's extensive.

SPEAKER_00 39:39

We yeah, we it goes on years.

SPEAKER_01 39:41

Yeah, it's not we don't just say, hey, you got a pulse, you're a man. Okay, let's do that. Yeah, we do not do that here. Um so we just went through the book of James and it took us probably half about a half a year. Yeah, I was gonna say it took us easy, six months. Um and that's for five chapters. So anyway, um uh we just ended last night. And James 5, 19 says, My brothers, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone brings him back, let him know that whoever brings back a sinner from his wandering will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins. And that's a beautiful passage, man. The letter of James is not written to non-believers, right? It's written to Christians. That's right. Addressing Christians and saying, There's gonna be people among you who are gonna wander from the truth. It's your responsibility. It's our responsibility to bring them back. Okay. And what happens when you bring them back, a sinner from his wandering, you save his soul from death.

SPEAKER_00 40:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 40:43

Which to me, along with many verses in Hebrews and other passages, uh there yes, yeah, you can you can wander too far away. You can. Um, but there's always grace to come back. Absolutely. And so, um, and so that's that's where we've got to really look at that. If you're a Christian, and please rest in this, please. If you're a Christian and you're listening to this, you are saved. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 41:10

And it's eternal security. John says, I write these things so that you may know that you have salvation. Not that you may have to hope. Yes. There is no, I mean, there's great hope, but but it's not hope of salvation.

SPEAKER_01 41:22

I mean, Hebrews 6.19 talks about, you know, like the this great hope is this anchor for my soul, you know. And so that that is the hope is not like, oh man, I hope I make it. It's a hope that is that transcends this this human thought process and goes right into the hope is Jesus. Yeah. And so we don't hope Jesus was there or died on the cross. We know he did.

SPEAKER_00 41:46

We know it.

SPEAKER_01 41:46

But our hope is in him because we we are knowing that he's already accomplished it. That's exactly right. And so, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:54

That's the exact opposite, too, of us being worried about every little sin. Right. Is us worrying that I'm not doing enough to remain saved. Right, right. And they're both extremes that are wrong. Yes. And so we need to make sure that we are resting So stop it. Yeah, yeah, stop. Rest in the knowledge that Jesus Christ has paid for your salvation uh from sin. So um, all right. So, yeah, that's basically a summary of two of the tulip and of Calvinism. There are many other things, and I'm sure a Calvinist um um could sit down and talk to you about it. But before I introduce uh what, well, before Dan introduces what he's gonna talk about about provisionism, uh let me make one more point. The I read a lot of places that some people don't like it to be referred to as Calvinism anymore. Now, my friends from my teenage years, I'm pretty sure don't care. They they were kind of classic Calvinists.

SPEAKER_01 42:47

All my friends are unashamed. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 42:50

They'll say Calvinism, no problem. Yep. But what Dan's getting ready to talk about about oh, I guess we can talk about the divisions and then and get into provisionism. But um, what Dan's gonna ready to talk about is the idea of why some Calvinists don't want to be called Calvinists anymore. They want to be called reformed. Right. And um the the reform movement is uh different, and that's what I experienced when I got here. Yeah. And so um, yeah, uh if you'll just a little bit and head into it.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

So so just just within Calvinism itself, um, there are divisions. Um there are uh uh and and it and this is just you know, as I was studying for this, because you know, I this is a subject that I can I can largely do without notes, yeah, um, but I don't want to misrepresent right either. Right. And so and so as I was gathering notes together and stuff, um uh the this this article, this guy says the very fact that there is a plurality of views on Calvinism designed to deal with the uh with these weaknesses, uh and the weaknesses being like double predestination, limited atonement, because even Calvinists can't agree on those. Things they they change and they they modify in order to uh um have more acceptable conclusions than the fact that God saves you, but he's gonna send you to hell right without even an option.

SPEAKER_00 44:14

Right.

SPEAKER_01 44:14

Um anyway, and so um he he says that you know there's three-point Calvinism, four-point Calvinism, moderate Calvinists, there's caged Calvinists, there's uh there's uh young young restless reform, there's uh I mean so there's all these different branches of Calvinism uh because they can't look at tulip and say, well, that's all true. Right. Or I like two of those, or you know, um uh and and including including us. I mean, we just told you like we we agree with the the P. Yeah, yeah. I mean we can I mean I I kind of agree with the P. I mean I I I would But we would call it eternal security, not perseverance of the saints. That's right, based on Christ, not ourselves. Right, right. And so and so like it's just it's just odd um that even even the Calvinists can't agree with and and I'm telling you right here, I and I'll be very honest, uh I most of the um most of the church leaders slash theologians that I study and read from are Calvinists.

SPEAKER_00 45:20

Many of them are because they there's been a large takeover of a lot of the research um portion of of of Christianity and of faith and of everything else. That is a lot of kind I mean, and just to name some names, um Charles Spurgeon Charles Spurgeon is my absolute favorite, right? And he was a tremendous preacher, just tremendous. Yep. Um modern day, you've got oh well, and and of course John MacArthur's past now. Yep, but um you uh Voddy Balchum, is that how you pronounce his name? Bachman. Vodie Bachman. Who just passed away? Just passed away. A great preacher, um Calvinist. Um and if you follow me on Facebook, I I I repost a lot of the videos that he's done because there it's truth. It's truth. He he preaches a good sermon and and and a lot of it was and and I agree with a lot of what he says. And again, that that means that we don't just dismiss people who can preach truth just because we don't agree with them on every little point. Know what you believe and then glean the truth. That's right. Um who else? Uh uh uh Alistair Bagg. Alistair Bag Um who I love. Oh my gosh, I love Aleister Bagg.

SPEAKER_01 46:23

Scott, squat uh squat. It's been a long week already.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

That's all right.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Scott uses uh uh a lot of Aleister Bagg uh stuff that that uh in and he's you know and he's he's Scottish brogue, and I have to be careful not to preach like him when I'm using some of his stuff. In fact, he there's uh there's an app that you can get uh of his ministry um that I love it. It's called Truth for Life. Yeah, Truth for Life. Man, you can listen to his sermons, comes on radio, devotionals, it's a podcast, it's really good stuff. Have it on my phone. Uh there's there's uh um uh uh another guy who passed away with Sproul, R. C Sproul. I have his whole set of lessons. I mean, and like the there's hundreds of lessons on that.

SPEAKER_00 47:04

And RC Sprawl always seemed to me to be really aggressive. He was one of those really aggressive guys, but really smart, really brutal. I would hate to debate him. Right. I mean, oh my gosh, I am.

SPEAKER_01 47:13

I mean, I I consider myself pretty learned and and knowledgeable and things, but there's I mean, uh one of the reasons I I I read a lot of these these guys is because there's a lot of places that I land that I'm like, yeah, I mean, I can see that. Yeah. Um, but also they're really well studied. They are very John Piper. Yeah, John Piper, I very well studied. I love uh if I if I'm gonna listen to you or um read your book or whatever, I gotta know that you're coming from a place that you put a lot of effort into what you are talking about. That's right. And so And these guys do.

SPEAKER_00 47:50

These they very much do. They very much do. So I and that, and that's and that's why I say if if somebody came to me and said, hey, you have to go debate John Piper, I'd be like, no. I'd be like, no, I don't think so. I'm gonna go ahead and call him Burry Bernie Sanders an accident. You'll have to Google him. I would I would I would buy him a uh a hot dog and hope that he would just be my friend. Um so anyway, but uh these guys are incredibly smart, they're incredibly talented. I don't agree with everything that they talk about, but and that you know, that that it's just where we look at it.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

What happens when you listen to somebody or you read somebody and and all you do is agree with everything they say. It doesn't challenge. I mean, there there's no challenge there. And so and so, like, like even the people that you know, like 99% of the things I agree with, there's always going to be a disagreement, but that's not a point of division.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

No. I want to be challenged because if if I'm wrong, right, I want to know.

SPEAKER_01 48:41

I want to know if I'm wrong.

SPEAKER_00 48:42

I want to know. And and I'm willing, I I think well, I have done it in the past. I think that if I'm wrong, I would be willing to view the view the proofs and change if that's what it was required.

SPEAKER_01 48:55

Right. I I've done that, I know you have done that. I mean many times. I have been challenged uh throughout my life as a Christian on uh a few different things that I just thought was true because I was told it was true. And and so I didn't study for myself, and then when I started studying for myself, I'm like, wait a minute. Yeah. That I and so it it caused me to have to change.

SPEAKER_00 49:19

Um and again, we go back to a few weeks ago when we did the rapture. I was I grew up with the rapture, grew up listening to it in church and in family, and when I got old enough and read the Bible, I I I just got to the place where I said, you know what? I don't I don't believe that's in the Bible. I can't believe that. I can't believe that. And and so I changed and uh I changed my mind about it and I prayed about it. And honestly, guys, Calvinism is something that I've been so familiar with for so long that I have come back to it again and again just to say, okay, is this something that I could hold on to? And I can't. And so that's where I'm at. If God changes my heart and my mind at some point, um, then I hope that he would do so in such a clear way that I could not fight that.

SPEAKER_01 50:00

Purely Calvinist. Purely Calvinist. Yeah, yeah. I mean, because we're we're about to talk about something that like is is uh I look as uh kind of a middle ground, um, but it is its own thing. Yeah, go ahead and do that. Um I used to call it 50 minutes. Yeah, I used to I used to call myself a Calminian um because I don't fully I don't fully subscribe to Calvinism and I don't fully subscribe to our Arminianism. Right. Um because I I do see in in scripture election and predestination, they're there, eternal security, yeah. Uh those types of things. And I see on the Arminius side this this idea of free will and God is sovereign still as we have free will. And I I 100% agree with that. I do too. Um and so um as as he has to be. I mean, if he's not, we're all screwed up. Exactly. Um but the the Kalminian thing, um, and and and I and it was just because I didn't realize, and I on if I'm honest with you, I thought I invented the word. Yeah, I I did like at that time I was and I have to say this, but and Dan knows this.

SPEAKER_00 51:04

When we went to hire Dan, um, my first conversation with Dan, I called him on the phone and I was talking to him and um didn't know what he looked like, hadn't looked, I hadn't seen anything on the phone. I didn't see that I was dividedly handsome. I I had no idea um that I would be a threat, that it would be a threat to my trophy preacher status. And so um and uh and and I and I asked, I said, so man, where do you land? You know, this and this. And he said, Well, I would classify myself as a Kalminian, and I thought, man, we are not, I am not dealing with this guy. I am not hiring this guy. But then uh when we got into more conversations with him, I found out that we really kind of stood in the same place. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 51:39

And so you just didn't know what to say, we just didn't know what to call it. So I in fact, uh um, uh, and I hope I hope she listens. Uh my my cousin Todd's wife, Nikki, um, is is an amazing person. Um uh she's been a they've been married for 25, 26 years, um, and they're just uh she she's a great Christian woman, and I think has a lot to do with my cousin coming to Christ uh as well. Um but uh she she sends me messages from time to time just and asking questions because she she you know she's like if she wants if I want to be in a church, I want to make sure that I'm being led right the right way. Absolutely. And you know, I'm kind of the de facto theologian of our family, so uh so she'll send stuff to me uh every now and again. She asked me about Calvinism one time. And I said, Well, I you know, I I could I I can see it and I can see our maniness, and I can, but I said I'm more of a Calminian. She said, I haven't heard of that before. She's like, What about this? And she sent this to me. Sorry, that was a lot of a lot of words. Anyway, and uh and oxygen. It's called provisionism, right? And so I didn't give it too much thought. Um, and then then we were prepping for this. Um I went back to my our messages together. I had to scroll back, and I'm like, there it is, that's the word. And uh anyway, so I I started researching this, and oh my goodness, I'm like, maybe this better describes where I am. Um and uh in and coincidentally, um as I was studying this, um, this is uh a um a place where most um for the most part Southern Baptists and independent Baptists end up landing is in is in this. Um I always thought Southern Baptists were traditionally were were Calvinists.

SPEAKER_00 53:25

Um I think you'll find it in the church, but it's it's not as prevalent as this as this and the reason and the reason I understood that is because um there was a fella in our churches who taught at MacU. He was a president of Cincinnati Bible College, and he actually left the Christian church to go to Southern Baptists. Okay. And I knew him well enough to know that he was not going to subscribe to Calvinism in any way, right? And so um I but there is there is a preponderance of of Calvinism within that within that.

SPEAKER_01 53:55

And then this article, well, I'll include it in the show notes too. But um, in this article, he this guy says that they get along well. Even even if they're not uh provisionists uh and they're the Calvinists, they get along well, which we should. Yes. Okay, so get along, please. Get along. Um get along, little doggy. Anyway, um sorry. It's been it's been a long day. It was a long day.

SPEAKER_00 54:17

We had eight hours of meetings this year. Yeah, it was yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:19

When I got home, I was like, uh zombies. Anyway, um, so provisionism. Uh they use an acronym, uh Provide. And I'm gonna I'm just gonna go through quickly because we are running on an hour here. Um so uh so P is people sin. Okay. Um uh no duh, right? Um so people sin. And so when you look at the the people in sin, so basically what they're saying is that um sin separates us all from fellowship with God, and therefore a divine provision became necessary. Okay, I I can I can ascribe to that. And uh again, on on the show notes, if you go there, there's a graphic, and this is what I'm reading. I'm reading off the graphic, and it gives you a list of verses where they they get this from Genesis 3:15 through 24, Isaiah 59, 2, Romans 5, 12, Romans 6, 23, Hebrews 9 22. Uh R is responsible. Uh that is everyone is able to respond to God's appeals for reconciliation because a divine provision will be heard and understood. Um, and they list some verses there. Uh, and then uh it's just that's the idea that like like we hear the truth and we respond to the truth because a divine provision has been made through the gospel. Through the gospel, yeah. That pro that provision that has been made is is what Jesus has done on the cross. Yep. Um and so since that's been made, and if we hear and understand that, we can accept that. Uh the O is open door, and this is the divine provision offered impartial uh uh the divine provision offered impartiality to all for anyone to enter through faith, for whoever may come to his open arms. And so this is an open door to anyone who would repent and believe. Okay, and and so that that's in direct contradiction to what the Calvinists would say about uh uh only God's sacrifice this limited atonement was only for certain people, not everybody. This one is anybody can come. Uh and then the V is a vicarious atonement. Uh so this is the divine provision given of sufficient value for the sins of the whole world and provides a way for anyone to be saved on the basis of Christ's shed blood. There's no other way, it's just Jesus, and that's offered to anybody. Right. The I is illuminating grace. Um, it is the divine provision offered sufficiently to all and provides clearly revealed truth so that all can know and respond in faith. So we see this. Uh it it has Romans 1 16 and through 2 16. And if you know anything about Romans 1, it's like you look out and you see the creation of God and you're without excuse. Yep. You can see it. And how our conscience reflects and our spirit. The D is destroyed. Uh for unbelief and resisting the Holy Spirit's drawing to God's mercy will be the divine provision of justice. Like you, I mean that's if you want if you're an unbelieving person, if you resist the Holy Spirit's drawing, God's justice takes place. Uh you hear me say it, I think you've said it before, and I tell my students this all the time. God does not send you to hell. You send yourself. Yeah, that's right. You choose. God honors your choice. And that's the justice of God. He honors what you've chosen. Right. And so I think that fits right right well in there. And then E is eternal security. This is the divine provision that is everlasting for all true believers. Uh that's one of the differences between uh Calvinism and this is they choose not to use uh perseverance of the saints, they choose to use eternal security. Right. And so um so that that's that one. And there, I mean, there's a whole stuff that you can read and stuff like that. Again, this is gonna be tied to a lot of Southern Baptist thought, um, which is is fine. I if I'm honest, I've applied it at a couple of Southern Baptist churches uh in when I was looking for uh to leave my last ministry and before I got here. So um I can work in a Southern Baptist church. Right. So um I just don't like the denominational aspect. So anyway, uh God is in charge, not us. Yep. Um so so so we we look at we look at all this this the provisionism and I and uh it's like man, and and as I was reading and studying this, I I was having a an epiphany, and and thank you, Nikki, for um, and I'm sorry I didn't uh look at this sooner. Um but like this provisionism uh uh it it fits to me more directly to who I am and what I believe, even more than my original thought of Calminianism. Right. Which which you know we don't have time to go through all of that. Yeah. Um but there's also another another thought process called Molinism. Um this has a lot to do with God's knowledge. Um and you can go uh study that on your own. Uh a big proponent of that is Dr.

SPEAKER_00 59:22

William Lane Craig. Um and I and I've always I've liked Molin. And when you said it earlier, I've I've looked it up really quick just to make sure I was right. I I like Molinism. Um, I I you know again, I've I I feel kind of like an orphan when it comes to all this. And and you know, my my viewpoint on it I think would fall, I think falls in what you've just said. I think it it still kind of go because I believe that God is sovereign and in control. Absolutely. He could do anything he wants to do in spite of me. Like, I mean, I may make the dungeon. He does that every day. He does it. I he factors my stupidity into his will. And so, you know, I to to say that God is powerful and in control, um, I I believe that wholeheartedly. I just don't believe God has to pull the puppet strings on me or anyone else to to to to show his love. That's that's dictatorship, that's tyranny. It's not it's not a love that God has for us and a total righteousness.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:19

It's a sadistic mindset. It seems like it to me in in my in my mind. Now, now again, um, I I have another friend that uh I because I post a lot of Calvinist stuff because I agree with some of it, um, but there's a lot I disagree with. So I had a friend message me and said, I didn't know you were a Calvinist, and we went to college together. I said, Well, I'm not I said I said I'm not fully Calvinist, but you know, I I see it it's challenged me to look at scripture deeper. Right. And so um, but yeah, I'm but yeah, this this whole idea of provisionism, I was just like, man, this is just really something that I um gosh, I just really looked at and and said, This again, I I don't know that I I would say that I'm completely and 100% in that department, yeah, because I gotta do more research on it, but it really does describe just in that this what I read you guys um describe uh my my thoughts uh on it. So pretty close to it. Yeah. Um so I I we're that's that website's gonna be in um the uh uh show notes. So you can go you can go check it out. Um uh and then you know, of course, there's Arminianism. And um that's the uh Jacobus uh uh Arminius um from 1560 to 1609. He was a Dutch theologian, um, and he emphasized uh the opposite of what Calvinism uh emphasizes uh in a lot of ways. Uh he you know he talks about partial depravity and conditional election and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:46

And conditional election in this case being elected due to God's foreknowledge of your choice.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:52

He chooses those who he knows will choose to believe. That's right. And so no one will be no one is predetermined to either heaven or hell. Right. Um and so and then he talks about unlimited atonement. Um Jesus died for everyone, and I I believe that. Yeah. Um but only believers are saved. Yeah, but but only believers are saved. By choice, yeah. Uh and it's because they've placed their hope and faith in Jesus Christ. Uh resistible grace, uh, God's call to be saved can be resisted or rejected. Okay. Um there's a lot of um two, three point, four-point Calvinists that agree with that.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:26

Yeah, I think the main thing there is that there everyone can hear the call. Right. It's not like God only calls certain people and he omits the rest. Right. This is a universal call. And Jesus said it, when I am lifted up from the earth, I will call all men to myself. And so I think of the people who hear the name Jesus all their lives and never give their lives to him. It's not because God didn't choose them, it's because they chose not to believe and react. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:51

Uh then uh conditional salvation. Uh Christians can lose their salvation if they actively reject the Holy Spirit's influence in their lives. Um, that's where I'm gonna disagree mostly um because uh again, I kind of lean towards the eternal security, um, that when you're saved, you're saved. And it's gonna take a whole heck of a lot to lose that salvation, and that's gonna be that's gonna be you.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:15

Yeah, and the reason I'm so close to that as well is because I don't really know I don't know that line.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:21

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:22

I it's I'm ignorant of what line that takes to get to. Yeah, I mean, I just don't have any idea.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:27

I mean, because God if somebody commits blasphemy of the Holy Spirit, right? Um, we know that's the unforgivable sin. So what what does that mean? Like, is it unforgivable um until they repent and return to Christ? What would would Christ re would Christ uh uh forgive and accept them back after committing the unforgivable sin?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:45

Yeah, and I've always felt that the unforgivable sin was dying without a chance.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:49

Yeah, and that's that's kind of why like what I've done.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:53

I mean, it's it's a good question to ask. And I've I've just always felt like the blasphemy, blasphemy of Christ will be forgiven, is what it said. Right. Um, but how long do we live in blasphemy to Christ and His work before we become Christians? Yeah. And as uh again, as leaning towards the free will aspect, we have that choice to deny him or to throw mud in his face or spit in his face. But blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives, which moves us toward um uh ultimate sanctification and redemption. And so when we deny that, but I agree, I I don't know where that line is. I believe that one when you're saved, man, you are saved, and it is the work of Christ. And to actively get rid of that, that's that's not something that I'd I've only I've only known maybe one person who I thought was truly saved and managed to leave it all behind. And can you can I tell you that they were originally saved? No, but they sure seem like it. And so I you know, there was definitely fruit there, it looked like to me. But yeah, so anyway.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:54

So the Arminianism and four-point Calvinists uh typically agree on the the unlimited atonement. Yeah, yeah. Um, just just so you're aware. Yeah. Um uh but yeah, uh, so so do your research in it. Uh traditionally, um we really see only two presented, yeah. And that's Calvinism and Arminianism. Yeah. And so um, but but there is there is more, and and that's what we we this whole thing was to help you understand uh as an audience that um A, we don't believe at Broad Creek that these are essential issues. No.

unknown 1:05:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:32

And so if if you fall into any of these camps and great.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

Yeah. If you if you believe in limited atonement that Jesus only died for Christian sins, I am not gonna hit you over the head with it. No, no. If you want to talk about it, I'll show you scripture and we can have a logical, good conversation.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:48

And we're still gonna allow you to serve here. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:50

Yeah, it's not an essential, it's not essential. It's not whether or not God created the world or the divine the divine Christ, uh, you know, the the 100% human, 100% God. It's not the virgin birth. It's not the inerrancy of Scripture. Those things are essential.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:02

It's not the Trinity.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:03

It's not the Trinity. Because the Trinity is an essential. Absolutely. It's not the efficacious sacrifice of Christ on the cross for our sins, and the only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. Those are essentials. These are not. And I I just here at Broad Creek, we're not going to teach these differences between Arminianism, Calvinism, Prov Providence or Pro Perseverance. Provisionism. Provisionism or Molinism. We're not going to teach those as this is the only thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:35

Because if you listen to both of us when we preach, we do preach Calvinist stuff. We preach Arminius. Because we we're preaching the Bible.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:49

And and the Bible, you know, it's it's not that the Bible should be interpreted differently. No. The Bible has one interpretation. Right. It's our job to do our best to interpret it correctly. Right. And um, you know, it's that's why it's a lifelong journey.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:04

Yeah, there is no, well, what this means this to me. No, no, no, no. No, no, no. That's right. One one of the worst things that if you ever if you leave a by if you lead a Bible study and you and you ask the question after you read the passage, well, what does this mean to you? That's the wrong question. Yeah. Don't there, there, there is correct interpretation. Yeah. And we've but we grow to that. Yep. And so we're gonna have different interpretations all the time. That's why. But you grow into your knowledge. And so so there's the extreme where you can be Calvinism is this and it's the truth, and if you don't believe that, you're going to hell. And there's the extreme of the other side where you know, like, you know, Calvinism is a cuss word, don't say it, you know, no, no participation in things with Calvin. That's not gonna happen here. No. Um, and so uh we we we preach Christ and Him crucified. That's right. We preach Christ and Him raised. Yep. And uh and if you come to come to Jesus and and you say, you know, I just kind of take the Calvinist stance, great. Yeah, you're still a believer. Yeah, and we and we're gonna walk beside you because we don't believe it differentiates your science. We're gonna disciple you, uh, same as if you're an Arminianism or a Molinan uh Molinism or Calminiism or Provisionism. Uh, whatever ism you are, as long as we can agree on who Jesus Christ is and what we're saved by.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:26

Yeah. Um then we can be okay. That's right. Yeah. And we're not taking the lesser route here. We're not taking a route of, hey, we don't want to ruffle feathers. It's not about believe me, I don't I don't avoid that. I was gonna say Dan, Dan would go to town. And me, I would go to town in a different way, right? But I mean it's it's um maybe not, but it's uh it's not about that. It is about the truth that essentials unite us and we can stand united even if we differ in some of our in some of our beliefs. And so I hope you understand that. I hope that that settles in with all of this, and I hope this has been informative to you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:00

Um and it's something we can't we can't even begin to cover in a really good way that we that that I would find sufficient uh as as a listener in an hour, in 10 minutes.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:12

It would it would need to be a series, and in all honesty, that's not what this podcast was built for. So um we um we we truly want to get you thinking. Yeah, we wanted to get you on board with thinking about it and and understanding where where we stand and um where we're where we're at. And and uh like I said, let us pray that God will open our eyes and and um help us to see the truth of his word. And if we're if we're wrong, then may we be corrected.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:37

I and I guess that's one of the reasons I really like the five solas. Yeah, well, you know, because it's it you know uh scripture alone, faith alone, yeah, grace alone, Christ alone, glory to God alone.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:47

Well let's be about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:48

Yeah, and I I I I agree. I I think that I just think we tend to make things too confusing sometimes. And you know me, I'm a big believer in the church. You're a kiss method. I'm a kiss method guy. I keep it simple, stupid, because I just believe it's easier taught and it's easier believed when we try to keep scripture as simple as possible. And I don't believe God wrote scripture to confuse us. I believe that God wrote scripture to enlighten us and to and to show us the truth. And even in books like Revelation, where we can understand it, we that draws us to faith. That we have faith in a God who um is going to do tremendous things and is doing tremendous things, and we can just trust in that and so as we come to a close. Guess what time it is, everybody? The dad joke 3000. Oh my gosh, that was really you like that?

SPEAKER_01 1:10:33

That was awesome. I I thought about opening the podcast, like welcome to the but I didn't. So, because the music was going.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:40

We could do that. Um, so anyway, all right, I've got the applause and the rim shot ready. All right. Um, we will uh all right, let's see how this goes.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:48

Okay, here's the dad joke 3,000. It isn't an oyster. Here it's pearls.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:59

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:02

Yes, that was pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:04

That was actually pretty good. I have to admit, that was good. Usually I cringe. Uh but that was that was pretty good. Don't be shellfish. Oh Lord. Um All right, Dan, as always. Thank you. All right, love you guys. Yep, love y'all. Y'all take care and uh have a great week, D Blist. We'll see you later.