The Book Nerds - The Books We Love

Admittedly, Scott and Dan are huge book nerds. As ministers, it's a requirement! In this week's episode, join our resident book nerds on a journey through many of the books that have meant so much to them through the years. They will talk about genres, ministry helps and they even delve into Preaching methods at one point. Come along and bring a notebook, maybe you'll find a book that changes you like many of these that have helped shape Dan and Scott.

Produced, edited and hosted by Scott Askew and Dan Daugherty

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hey everybody, it's the Creek Cast with Scott and Dan. Dan, good to see you today, buddy. Hello. It is uh Wednesday. We're kind of late for the Creek cast this week, but we've had a we're recovering. I mean it was Easter weekend. And a great weekend. If you were here at church with us, you especially first service was packed, second service was crazy, and it was awesome. Adding chairs. It was amazing. Yeah. We brought in chairs everywhere, and people were saying they didn't have room to walk. And I hope the fire marshal doesn't listen to this. So anyway, when we um shut it down. Yeah, maybe maybe I should edit that. Um we'll see. Um no, we have decided this week, since it is kind of a recovery week, and we're we were talking about what to do for the podcast, we've got topics that we could do, but we wanted to do a fun one for us, which was we're gonna talk about our favorite books. Um, books that cover the gamut. Um, when I prepared a list and I prepared it in like groupings, um, and Dan did it the way that we're gonna do it for the podcast, um, fiction and nonfiction. And so I'll be pulling out of my groupings into fiction and nonfiction and talking about groups.

SPEAKER_00 1:32

You're grouping, it was just if I'm honest, I was a little intimidated by your organization of your of your books.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

In my head, it works. And I tried to put it on paper and I was like, well, crap, I really dropped that ball. No, no, no, no. We're gonna we're gonna keep it not. No, Dan, Dan is just more straightforward than me. Me, I like to dance around tables and so um, you know, and and do stuff with with organization that doesn't work for anybody else except me. So um, so yeah, um, that's what we're gonna be doing today. And so we'll probably start with, I don't know, what do you think? Fiction or non-fiction? Which one we want to start with?

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Uh let's go with let's go with the fiction because um that list is significantly shorter for me.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Okay, and I've got a few um fiction. I don't read a lot of fiction. Um I I my favorite niche book outside of like just Christianity, my favorite niche is non-Christian. Uh I mean not non-Christian. Um I like that non-Christian. Yeah, yeah, non-Christian. I don't like reading about that Christian stuff. Um, is uh historical nonfiction. And so uh I love reading uh about that, so we'll talk about that. But yeah, I think uh let's start with fiction and um and we're just gonna jump right in today, guys. And what I would recommend, I'm not gonna be able to list all these pro well, I could probably I don't know, I could probably get our list and put them in there. But if you're taking notes, I would just write a couple down. Maybe you know an author that we talk about, and maybe you just want to write a book down or two. Um I my list covers like 40 books. So um and Dan's got a good list too.

SPEAKER_00 3:04

Yeah, and and it comes with a disclaimer that just because we like a book doesn't mean we always agree with the author. That's right. Yeah. Um, and so we have to we have to disclaim just because there's some like you're gonna hear some authors today that um maybe are not maybe have fallen in the in the last 20 years or so of their of their life, or even five years of their life for that matter. So um, but it doesn't negate what God has done through them at some point, especially if they're Christians. Um, and so um, yeah. So just just bear with us in that. Um, and there's some some authors here that you may not like, but I love and I listen to them and that's the cool thing about it. Read them, and yeah, we have that freedom.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

That's right. We have that freedom to choose. And some of the all a couple of the books that I will mention, um, I know for me, uh, especially in the historical nonfiction category, um, a couple of those books and a couple of those authors may write some things that you wouldn't want to read out loud to friends. And I and I understand that too. Or have your children read books. Yeah, certainly so. And uh, I do have some series that I'm gonna put into the fiction section, a couple of series that I think are awesome for um teenage males. I I just there's two series, and it's not Harry Potter. I know a lot of people go back and forth. I've read Harry Potter through, oh gosh, I don't know, four or five times now. I mean, I I read it a lot, and uh, I just love the way uh Rowling writes. I love her her craft, and um, but I'm Harry Potter's not gonna make this list. And uh so I'll offer a couple of alternatives.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

And I can tell you, Scott, that I was anti-Harry Potter for most of my life. Yeah. Um, but a lot of my good friends, and especially my best friend, uh Jeff, he's he's big into Harry Potter and he was in ministry and uh stuff like that. And so I always thought like it too couldn't happen that way. Like you can't be in ministry and like Harry Potter. Yeah, yeah. Um But when we went to uh um Universal in January, went to the Harry Potter, I'm a I'm a fan. It's I mean, give me the movies. That's because I I don't have time to read the books, but I'm I'm a fan. That was that was awesome. And and it's just understanding you know, the author, um, you know, that type of stuff, and you know, where she's coming from. And I don't know, there's a lot, there's a lot to books. We've we've mentioned this before that when I when I recommend a book to a parent, especially, um, for their child to read, I tell parents, if you ever have a question about whether or not that series or that book is good, do your research on the author.

SPEAKER_01 5:35

Yeah, yeah. Research the author, see where they stand.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Yeah, because even in even in fiction and fantasy, especially um you have authors that are that are coming from uh just a purely fan fantasy, you know, world. Yep. And then you have some who have this uh um behind the scenes motive. Yeah uh like uh one of the authors I can't ever remember his first name, but his last name's Pullman. Oh yeah, Philip His present darkness or whatever that yeah, yeah. Uh he's he's an outright atheist, and so his goal is to kill God in the minds of children. That's actually a quote from of his.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:12

Uh is to kill God in the minds of children. So do your research on authors.

SPEAKER_01 6:16

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Um, and and for and for Christians, we have to be careful because um a lot of these a lot of these uh, you know, like Robbie Zacharias, um, I loved his writings. Yeah. Um uh he wrote some really good stuff. There was some really good and I got a lot when I was going through the grief of losing my mom, um, you know, his his book on grief was a was a good good help through that. Um, you know, and if you know Robbie Zacharias's story, uh after he died, it came out that he was having all these sexual things with people. And um, you know, which kinda it sucks. But like you you and you talk about it and it's like, man, what but that doesn't, I mean, that doesn't negate the fact that God used him in mighty ways. Um and so uh so yeah, just that disclaimer. That was a long disclaimer, but uh no, but I think it's valuable.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

I and I'm glad I'm glad we're able to disclaim that because like I said, there there are and like Dan said, there are gonna be some here who we say, and you go, wait a minute, I thought he was off the reservation, and he and he might be or she might be. One example that I'll give you is is and I just told Dan, I took Annie Dillard off my list, and I love Annie Dillard. Annie Dillard wrote uh Pilgrim at Tinker Creek and won the Pulitzer at 20. I I said she was 21 to Dan, but she may have been just a few years older. But where do you go after that? Willing the Pulitzer? And then she became a teacher and a professor, but she went down a transcendentalism slope for a long time that put a bad taste in the mouth of a lot of her readers. And so I'm not including any of her books necessarily in my favorites list, um, because you know, and you guys may go, oh, well, he Annie Dillard, I'm gonna go look out. Okay, fine. Go, go, go, but as a mature Christian, I feel like I can read Annie Dillard and be just fine. Yeah. Um, I would say if you're a mature Christian and and you're growing in Christ, you can probably read Andy Dillard too. But the point is that we want to give books that can really benefit you and um help you along your way. Um, and and some of them would, for me at least, will just be enjoyable books that I like reading. I'm gonna throw a couple in here that are just stupid books, but man, I love them. And uh, but they fit my psyche, they fit what I like to read, and I just laugh and laugh at them. So, anyway, without further ado, let's jump in and uh we're doing you said fiction first. Fiction, fiction. So let's do fiction first. So, where do you want to go with fiction, bud?

SPEAKER_00 8:38

Uh, I'm gonna start with my favorite fiction of all time, which is Lord of the Rings. Oh, yeah. So um the movies are fantastic. Uh, but if you know the books and you've read the books, when you first saw the movie, you're probably screaming, yeah, wait a minute, you forgot, you forgot. I was like, Where's Tom Bombado? Where's Tom Bombard? Where's Tom Bombado? Man, that'd have been awesome. Yeah. Uh so Lord of the Rings is my is my top uh fiction. Um I love uh uh Tolkien's style.

SPEAKER_01 9:05

Uh just this the the work that went into how he how he develops that whole world is just the whole the whole idea that he created a language and then he's decided that he needed to create a world where that language could live. And so he created Elvish and the Dark Tongue and all that. And then he puts his wife in the Lord of the Rings, who is Arrowin, who is undying love, and um and and abject beauty. And um just just it's really I I always remember Tolkien arguing with somebody about the spelling of a word, and the guy said you should consult the Oxford Dictionary. He told Tolkien that, and Tolkien said, I wrote the Oxford Dictionary.

SPEAKER_00 9:48

And uh so that's and just just a theme of salvation through that whole thing. Like, um, I can't I can't read nonfiction or you're fiction, and I can't watch movies without finding the spiritual application of those things. But it's blatant there. Yeah, it is because he was a Christian, yeah. So uh and a contemporary of C.S.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Lewis. He was one of the ones instrumental in bringing it. Bring us back to faith. Yeah, yeah. As a matter of fact, excuse me, if you watch um the play, it's on Amazon Prime called The Reluctant Convert. Um, it's a stage play, fourth wall, you know, he he's I directly addressing the camera, but he tells the story of how Tolkien really uh really challenged his faith. And Tolkien was was lean Catholic, but of course C.S. Lewis, you know, in the more the Protestant direction, but they remain so close to their lives and just a wonderful story.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, there are Catholics who believe in Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 10:47

Oh, absolutely. Absolutely well, uh, you know, plenty of them. Plenty of them. Just one or two. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 10:52

Um, yeah, and just uh the idea if you don't know, like Scott's you you've you've preached on this before, you use this as an example, but they they used to get together with a couple other philosophers and and uh have a pint and talk theology and philosophy. I we need to bring stuff like that back. I'm I'm all for that. I mean, yeah, I'm let's have a pint and let's talk theology. Yeah, we can do the inklings, but but that's the only thing that you can talk about. Like that that would be the rule. Like you come and you you have a drink with us, and all we talk about is theology and the philosophy of life. Yep. That would be amazing.

SPEAKER_01 11:24

I think that would be amazing. I'd even wear a tie for that. I'd like a bow tie.

SPEAKER_00 11:27

But I would go.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

Um I I'm I'll bring a pipe. I'll I'll smoke a pipe. I'm very I'm not gonna smoke a pipe. I'm just gonna smell it. I just want to smell apple tobacco.

SPEAKER_00 11:35

I'm very I'm very northern European, so it's you can wear your little bow tie. You like Malcolm Guy if you want to. You won't be able to see it with the beard, but it it's gonna be there. So anyway. So yeah, Lord of the Rings is my my top, and then probably the Hobbit uh right after that. Yeah, and The Hobbit's just such a great it's such a great bedtime story to read to your kid. Uh it's great. And the movie did it no oh no justice whatsoever. Yeah. But it's it if you're watching the movie for the entertainment, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Oh, yeah, it's a lot of fun. Yeah, all three. All three the Desolation of Smog and Um The Battle of Five Armies are all fun movies, but the book is is um the book is wonderful. It's a really wonderful book. My favorite fiction series of all time, and uh you may have never heard of this guy, but it's the Rangers Apprentice series by John Flanagan. And um the Rangers Apprentice series has no sex, uh, very little cussing. Um it's just the modern, you know, uh cuss cussing in it. It's nothing advanced, uh nothing bad. Um I was advanced cussing. Well, uh you know, when I think of literature, I think, I think, and I think especially in terms of teen series, because the Rangers Apprentice is a teen series. I think, okay, there are certain cuss words in there that we hear every day. You know, like I mean, they're just so but then there's more advanced cuss words. And you're like, wait a minute, here every day. We don't need to be here now. Yeah. And if they drop those in a book sometimes, it really makes me wince because I go, dang, you know, this this could it's just not necessary. Yeah. And um, but the Rangers apprentice doesn't have any.

SPEAKER_00 13:06

When you s when you say advanced, I I I this picture of this stuffy British guy like in scientific, like anyway. Like I've I've heard of that series. I just not I I wasn't uh aware of the author.

SPEAKER_01 13:22

It's so good about a young boy who is a adopted into a ward, it's set in the mid kind of the middle ages, but it's about this group of rangers who serve the king only and they go around and keep peace, and it's just them going around solving problems, and it sounds so basic, but you fall in love with Will, the character, that and then Halt, who is his mentor, and you fall in love with them. And there are 11 books, I think, in that series, and I literally read that series every year. Oh wow, and so um it's ambitious. Well, it's just it's so good. I can't when I start reading them. The first book is honestly the slowest, and they all speed up after that. Yeah, but it's about friendship and chivalry and and nobility and integrity and having each other's back. I mean, it's honestly if it was a men's series and it was a little more advanced, I'd highly recommend it to all men to read because it's just what men are supposed to do for each other, have each other's back. Right. And uh it's just such good.

SPEAKER_00 14:16

Sounds to me like it needs to be a movie.

SPEAKER_01 14:18

Uh on well, they've tried over the years, but they it's always fallen off. And um honestly, I'm afraid they would ruin it. So um, but anyway, uh, that and the inheritance cycle by Christopher Paulini, uh, which is Aragon and Inheritance and all that. Yeah, um, those are both excellent. My brother and I read those kind of at the same time. I would read it and he would listen to it, and uh, we would kind of and we would call each other and talk about it. So just good memories with those. That's cool. So those are my fiction. Oh, and one last one fiction. Um uh the um uh The Little Prince by Antoine de Saint-Exupery. Um, I think that um as far as a small book, an easy read goes, and it's one of those books that you read and you read and you don't and you don't have any recourse into Christianity with it, and then at the very end it dumps this Christian allegory on you. And I it's just this really great little little book. So um just a good read.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

I got the Chronicles in Arnia. Of course. C. S. Lewis. Yes. Uh The Pilgrim's Progress. Yes. Love Pilgrim's Progress. Yep. Do the book. The movies are um really, really, really cheesy. Yeah. Uh, but the book is fantastic. Yep. Uh The Circle series by Ted Decker. Yeah. And I never read those. I I could not put that down. It was amazing. And I'll offer my own disclaimer here.

SPEAKER_01 15:39

I can't get into Christian fiction. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

I don't know why. See, that's the only only fiction I like is Christian fiction.

SPEAKER_01 15:45

So I I cannot get into I just I don't know why. My brain doesn't work that way. Because I'm always like, why don't they do that?

SPEAKER_00 15:52

You know, and I I've always been a reader because you know, we're products of the booking program. So exactly I had plenty of personal fan pizzas. I ate a lot of pizza when I was a kid. Um, but I I don't ever remember like a lot of those books that I read growing up, I really didn't stick with me. You know, uh other than like where the red fern grows, um, the box boxcar children. Oh yeah, yeah, you know, those types of books. But uh like Encyclopedia Brown.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

Did you ever read Encyclopedia? Oh man, I loved Encyclopedia Brown.

SPEAKER_00 16:20

There was like like it wasn't it wasn't that memorable to stick with me into adulthood. Right. Um But when I became a Christian, I started reading more Christian material. Uh and actually I I didn't even know that Christian Christian uh fiction ever existed until I got to probably the college. And so um and that's when I read The Pilgrim Pilgrim's Progress. But um, but anyway, yeah, that so that that's really all I all I read. But Ted Decker, any anything by Ted Decker you're gonna like.

SPEAKER_01 16:50

I I I did read um he didn't write it. Well, um This present darkness.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

Yeah, that's on my list too. Yeah. Yeah, the the darkness series. It's this present darkness and piercing the darkness by Frank Frank Perretti. Frank Pareti. Yeah, yeah. Very good. That was very good. And to me, he's kind of the he's kind of the the OG of that that writing.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Well, I've heard Ted Decker compared to him.

SPEAKER_00 17:13

Yes, well, actually they write together in in a couple books. Um so um, yeah, and those books are really cool. Um that's awesome. And and so that yeah, that that wraps up my whole fiction, you know, Lord of the Rings, Chronicles of Narnia, Pilgrim's Progress, Circle series by Ted Decker, or anything by Ted Decker is gonna be good. Um, and then the Darkness series excellent pareti.

SPEAKER_01 17:34

I'm running over my list really quick to make sure I'm not missing out on any other fiction, but I think I think that's kind of like. I I told you my fiction list is far smaller than well, and I and again, my main list is historical non-fiction. Right, right, right. I mean, outside of of course church growth, yeah, personal growth, things like that.

SPEAKER_00 17:52

And I and I love the historical uh fiction books, like you know, that that um it's history, but it's not it's a made-up story in that history. I I love those books. I just don't have a favorite out of those, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, and I've read of uh just a few. I I'm not well versed in that in that genre, so um, which is which is fine. Yeah, that's cool.

SPEAKER_01 18:12

All right, so um so we'll leave fiction behind. I think both of us have pretty substantial nonfiction lists. Yeah um excuse me, and of course, um I've gone through categories. So how about you talk about a few of your favorites and then I'll talk about a few of mine? We'll just go back and forth.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

Well, a few of my favorites, number one is the Bible, of course. Um, and I'm not just saying that uh it literally I mean should should happen this way. Literally changed my life. Um uh the the Bible for me, um I I read the Bible 12 times from the age of 15 to 18.

SPEAKER_01 18:49

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Um in just reading it. Yeah. Um when I tell people that they they they never believe me. But I I did. I I love I I fell in love with God's word. That's amazing. But I didn't I didn't retain a lot of it. Oh, right. Well I was reading it uh just to read it. Um which is and and I'm not a heretic for this. Um I actually enjoy the message version. Yeah. Um just for enjoyment of reading.

unknown 19:13

Heretic.

SPEAKER_00 19:14

No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_01 19:14

I'm just kidding. No, he's not a heretic. I love the message. I I absolutely love the. Did you say heretic?

SPEAKER_00 19:21

No, they're the worst kind. Oh my gosh. Anyway, the uh um the the message for me was it because because it's so it's so informal, um, and I love the way Eugene Peterson uh puts it together. Yep. Um and if you read the if you read the the the beginning of the message Bible, he he tells you that this is not a study Bible.

SPEAKER_01 19:49

Well yes, it's very clear.

SPEAKER_00 19:50

It isn't a preaching Bible, right? Um, but yet preachers still do it, and I think I think they should stop. Yeah. Um however, um he did translate it from the original language. He did. He didn't use another English version, right? And so he just put it in ways that we would understand it. He was it's a paraphrase, is what it is.

SPEAKER_01 20:07

And Peterson was the probably one of the most brilliant modern um contemporary pastor preachers who was also able to do these incredibly complex uh ideas. And uh it was just fascinating.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

And and I I actually have a uh message study Bible with his notes from his teaching. That's like when he was teaching at seminary and stuff. Yeah. And excuse me, again, like when I read the message, I'm not reading it for theological enrichment. Sure. I'm I'm reading just so that my mind and my heart settles on something that's uh it doesn't take my brain a lot of work. That's right. Because my brain's always on overdrive. So um uh The Jesus Way by Eugene Peterson uh is another one that I like now that we're talking about Eugene Peterson. This is in no particular order.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

And as he goes, does this, I'll add some to Eugene Peterson because I have a few of Peterson's myself.

SPEAKER_00 20:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:59

It's a guardian.

SPEAKER_00 21:00

Um and then uh uh Wild at Heart, uh besides the Bible, um uh John Eldridge writing Wild at Heart. That's the that's the book outside of the Bible that is responsible for who I am today as a man. Um it really opened my eyes up to what biblical manhood is. Um and uh I in fact um there's a few guys in the church. No, you're probably if you're listening to this, uh I've taken through. I've taken uh literally hundreds of men through this book along with scripture as I'm discipling them. And uh it's it's well worth the read. Uh in fact, my men's minute uh started last week uh with I'm just giving a snip uh uh just a just an excerpt from each chapter um for my men's minute. So my hope is that when when the guys are reading it, they're like, I I wanna pick this book up. Yeah. And they and they do. Um it's really good. Really good. And then uh his other book, Waking the Dead, yeah um is is another one. Uh Lot of spiritual warfare in there. Yep. Um, and we can, you know, uh discuss it later. But my best friend Jeff and I started a camp um at in Idaho uh called SWAT Camp Spiritual Warfare Advanced Training, and we ran it like a military boot camp. And we used different war scenarios that America has been in with paintball to teach spiritual warfare. And so, but it was it was based off of Waking the Dead and Wild at Heart. Um, and just like that what spurred it on for the both of us. And so that's awesome. Yeah, it was awesome. Uh dozens of young men went to ministry, um, went into ministry that went through that camp and stuff. So yeah, it was really cool. That's amazing. Um, so John Eldridge is holds a special place in my heart. So uh with that. Yeah. Uh Mirror Christianity by C. S. Lewis. Um that's one I I um it's hard to read.

SPEAKER_02 22:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

But I got the audio version. Yeah. I I've read it, but uh what I do now is like I'm a big I can't remember who it was that uh said that um um maybe it was C. S. Lewis that said uh um if you have a you d if it's a good book, you you you live in it, like you revisit it. I can't remember the exact quote, but you don't just read a book and it's oh that's awesome and only read it once. Right. Um and so uh Mirror Christianity is one of those that I I go through on a regular basis. Yeah. Um but I do it through audio. I read it the first time and then I do audio.

SPEAKER_01 23:23

You should probably honestly Mirror Christianity is probably better listened to because it was originally radio broadcasts. Yes. And he uh compiled them and put them into um he was answering questions, kind of a little bit like what we're doing here. Yep, and he um was compiling and and putting questions together. So yeah, listening to it's probably the better way.

SPEAKER_00 23:38

And then another Lewis book, uh uh Surprised by Joy, was really good. Um and and I was teetering with uh screw tape letters, but I it's a good book. Um but to me, screw tape letters is I like the screw tape letters. It's more fiction.

SPEAKER_01 23:54

It is fiction, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:55

I mean it's allegorical.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

Yeah, very allegorical, and um and sometimes tough to read. Right. You can get lost in it. Of course, C. S. Lewis again is such a brain. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:04

Um and then uh I'll do a couple more, then we can get some from your list. Okay. Uh Discipleship by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Uh I would say one of my favorite um theologian type people from the 20th century is Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Um, and if you don't know anything about him, uh go look him up. Uh amazing.

SPEAKER_01 24:25

And then Eric Metataxis. Yeah. Metaxis has a um a biography.

SPEAKER_00 24:30

Biography of the um and then uh another book by him, um Ethics by Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Really good. So um, but yeah, that's that's that's starting it off. We'll get a couple of Scott's and then we'll add some more here.

SPEAKER_01 24:45

Um from Peterson, uh Eat This Book and Tell It Slant are both excellent books. They're very high on um theological, um, just part of Peterson's brain as he looks at scripture. He does a really good job of explaining how he looks at scripture and how he gleans things and how he finds the the proper interpretation. It's really good stuff. But my favorite Peterson book is uh Long Obedience in the same direction, and I I comment on that book all the time, and it's about discipleship, slow discipleship in a really fast world. And um uh but Peterson's always been fascinating to me. One other fiction book uh that I forgot to throw in there is the is the Wing Feather saga by Andrew Peterson. I forgot to throw that in there, and um, that's excellent. But another book of his, Adorning the Dark, is a really, really good book. Um and Andrew, of course, is the one who does the beholding the lamb of God. Andrew's my age, he's actually a day older than I am, and so um from the Midwest. Yeah, from the Midwest, and attended one of our schools uh at Florida Christian before it was shut down. And and um just uh just an amazing guy and the whole rabbit room press. If you're interested in just finding kind of a publishing house, it's good stuff. Andrew and his brother Pete um put those together and um just good stuff there. Um if I was gonna start, if somebody comes up and walks up to me, what book has probably had a big influence on your life? And I always feel like I need to explain this. Um, Philip Yancey has recently gone through a life crisis. Um he made made a really big mistake and it's has hurt his marriage. But long ago, he wrote three books in succession that were just three of the best books I've ever read. And uh the first one that I read was The Jesus I Never Knew, and the second one was What's So Amazing About Grace, but then I got a hold of Soul Survivor. And Soul Survivor he does 12 biographies of different people throughout time. So Andy Dillard's in there. Um he does Martin Luther King, he does Dustevski, does Tolstoy, I think in the same chapter. Um for some reason that book uh see Everett Coop, he it just Paul Brand, it really resonated with me that I didn't have to agree with all of those guys to glean something from their life and what they taught. And so um Soul Survivor has long been and when people come hurt to me by churches or by other Christians or whatever, I I almost always I don't I actually don't have a copy of Soul Survivor uh in in physical form, but I haven't been to a thrift store or anything lately to look for them. Um but um I normally have extra copies to give away. And if people spend time with them, I think they often find that you know it's not Christ that hurt them. Right. And uh that's probably the the central message of that of that book. And um, and so uh Soul Survivor is really way up there um for me. Uh right next to that is Courage, Dear Heart by Rebecca Reynolds. You're not gonna agree with Rebecca Reynolds' um politics all the time. I don't agree with her politics, and she doesn't dump them in the book that often. Maybe once or twice she comes across something where she gets up on a soapbox, but um, and you may agree with Rebecca Reynolds, and so that's fine. But um the book itself I think is is a necessary read for a hurting world. And a lot of the books, I guess, that I have on this list are books that I read in times when I was hurting. I mean, just looking at the list, uh, a lot of them probably are that. And um, but uh, you know, pain is something that we've we've all been through so much that it makes us who we are and the scars we bear. And so um I courage dear heart. I I always have it open on my Kindle. Uh it's always downloaded, and I go back to it and just read three or four pages from time to time. Yeah. So um, it's good. And one last one, then we'll switch back. Uh Rob Parsons recently released a book. He released it in December. And Rob, Rob, uh, you may know Rob from various things. Um, uh again, another author that I don't know that I would always promote in every way, but he wrote a book called A Knock at the Door, and it is not specifically Christian. Um, there are a few words in there, a few of the um less advanced um kind. But um uh it's about a man who knocks on his door when he's 27 years old and asks, could he come in? And and not to give it away because it gives it away at right at the beginning of the story, but um, The Man Never Leaves. And um it is a fascinating book about how um compassion and empathy look past a special needs individual who needs help. And uh it really, it really kind of rocked me as to how I view um people. I and just to be transparent, I've always I've always had a problem with empathy. Um I before Aaron was born, I really had a problem with empathy. Like I I when people did something wrong, I would really just I would try to help them, but in the back of my mind, I'm like, why were you stupid in the first place? And I still to a point, I guess I do that because if somebody does something stupid five or six times in a row, you do want to shake them and you do want to slap them across the face and say, look, get it together. But um, when Aaron came along and we went through everything we went through with Aaron for all those years, it really changed my viewpoint of empathy that there were people in situations, whether they got there under their own accord or not, they really just needed a second chance. Right. And it really softened me to the gospel message of second chances and forgiveness and grace and mercy. Yeah, with the concept of responsibility, of course. But um, but yeah, that book, A Knock at the Door by Rob Parsons, really helped kind of solidify that for me. So uh it was good stuff. Uh so back to you.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

All right. So uh one that I read on a regular um and I revisit it probably every few years is the Ragamuffin Gospel by Brennan Manning. Oh yeah. I didn't put that in my list. I can't believe I've forgotten so good. It's a great reminder. Um uh it's it's in the name Ragamuffin Gospel. It's in Brennan Manning is interesting because he was a Fran Franciscan Franciscan friar, monk, priest, yeah, whatever. Yeah. Um but uh but his uh again um He doesn't write that way. He doesn't write, you know, no You you would mistake him for a Protestant, so don't let that hang out.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

Um some of the greatest writers I've ever read are um are from the the Catholic Orthodox Henry Newman, who was a closet homosexual, wrote things about God that still affect me. Right. Um, you know, I mean there are other authors like that, but yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:18

Um and then uh the stones cry out. This is where I'm gonna get a little nerdy. Um Randall Price, uh who uh who actually taught at Liberty for a while, and uh, but the book's been out for a long time. Um archaeology. Um man, just uh the archaeological finds that that point to scripture. That's awesome. Um yeah, I just like that stuff to me, like like if I'm honest, like when my wife uh bought me the uh 84 edition NIV um archaeological study bible, which I still have on my shelf today, I cried. It was it was for Christmas, and I opened it, and I was like a little kid that just got their favorite toy.

SPEAKER_01 31:56

Like, and I had tears like flowing down my I imagine a husband and wife driving down the road listening to this podcast, and the husband goes, I'm not gonna cry.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

But if you want to give me a Bible, it'd be great. But again, I I I prefaced this whole the whole nonfiction list with my my love of scripture. Yes. Um, but uh, but yeah, the the the archaeological uh side of Christianity for me. Um if I could if I could have went back and like I don't know, maybe I was too hasty going into the PhD that I got, which I I love when I'm doing, um, but I probably would have tried to get into the biblical archaeology side of things. But anyway, uh so the Stones Cry out by Randall Price is really good. Um Crazy Love by Francis Chan. Yep. On my list as well. Um I know some of you may not like Francis Chan. I love Francis Chan.

SPEAKER_01 32:44

I still love Francis Chan, man. He's amazing.

SPEAKER_00 32:46

Yes, he's yeah, and and and if you read his recent stuff, he's come out and uh um and uh apologized for some of the people he was uh indirectly supporting and didn't realize that they were doing some of the things they were doing and stuff like that. Uh but Francis Chan is good. Um I I I love Francis Chan. Uh Forgotten God by Francis Chan. By the Holy Spirit about the Holy Spirit. Um and then Erasing Hell by Francis Chan.

SPEAKER_01 33:13

Which was a direct rebuttal of Rob Bell's.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

Um what was it called? Oh crud. That's how bad it was.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

Yeah, that literally I read that book and I was so mad.

SPEAKER_00 33:22

And another rebuttal for that, um, by one of our own, uh Brian Jones, um, who's uh pastor at a church in um uh Philadelphia area, yeah. Um called Christ Christ Church of the Valley, um, which is crazy because we have one in um uh Arizona, not related. Um, but Hell is Real, but I hate to admit it by Brian Jones. Yeah. I've got that book in my um, that was really good, that was really good.

SPEAKER_01 33:47

Um and so uh the book Rob Bell wrote is called Um Love Winds. Yes, Love Winds. Where basically he says that there is no hell, there's no hell.

SPEAKER_00 33:55

Everybody's going to heaven eventually because we're living in hell right now.

SPEAKER_01 33:58

Yeah, and he bases it on the um a parable. Yes, um a strong Christian doctrine on a parable, which is you can't do that.

SPEAKER_00 34:04

That's not how that works. Um, but anyway, um, so uh let me check off some of these so I don't repeat them. Um Crazy Love, I got that. Oh uh No Wonder Why or No Wonder They Call Him Savior by Max Ocato is my all-time favorite Max Ocato book. I've got five in Max Licato, and I did not have that one.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

That's funny.

SPEAKER_00 34:21

He's uh um he's one of our guys. Um recently he's he's had an encounter where he he believes he's got the gift of tongues and stuff. And uh I don't necessarily I don't disagree with that the Holy Spirit just still works today. And I mean we can we can have another podcast about the giftings and stuff at some point, but I like Max Ocado. I've I've actually met him a few times. Um he held my children for 30 minutes um and played with my children um while we were waiting in line, and there's a whole long line of people ready to meet him, and he just took his he took 30 minutes to just hang out with our my family. That's awesome. He was awesome. Um and then um getting into some more nerd stuff, um, Life of Christ by Dr. Mark Moore, who's one of our guys.

SPEAKER_01 35:04

The best guy, the best commentary on the gospels I've ever read. Yeah, by far.

SPEAKER_00 35:09

Uh and it's understandable by everybody.

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Yes, I think anybody, I mean, I have two or three copies of the one volume one, volume one, two, but I also have them downloaded. And a lot of the preaching from Luke that I'm doing will come out of Mark Moore's work.

SPEAKER_00 35:21

He is uh when I did the Wednesday or the Thursday night uh Bible study when we were doing the family night uh a couple years ago. Um I I did um we went through the book of Mark. Yeah, and that's what I used as the main um main teaching source. It's just access. Um he's he's and I know Mark. I don't know if you have yeah, you've met him. Um he's a great dude. Uh dude. Sorry. He's a great one. I was swallowing at the same time as saying dude. Um but Mark is a is a good guy. Um he's he's a great preacher, great teacher. Um so um if you would like to borrow those, uh Scott has some and I have some. Yeah but they're they're easy to go through.

SPEAKER_01 36:01

They are and and you can get them on Amazon in digital format, which isn't is nowhere near as easy to to move through. Right. But it's chronological. So he pulls them in and does them in order. Uh, but sometimes you can get them on Amazon for like two bucks. Yeah. So um I I I would say watch Amazon if you're a Kindle reader, but um if you need to borrow one or want to borrow one, just look at them.

SPEAKER_00 36:23

Yeah, no, they're great. So um here's one for you. Oh gosh. You ready? How should we then live by Francis Schaefer. Dude, Schaefer was the man.

SPEAKER_01 36:37

Schaefer was too Christian for secular world, he was too secular for Christian world, and he wrote genius stuff. Oh my gosh. That that passage where he says the preacher gets up in the pulpit, and there's a there's a girl in the second row who's considering abortion for the baby kicking in her belly, and there's an addict in the fourth row who looks like he's strung out, and there's a lady who's cheating on her husband in the sixth row on the right, and then there's a man in the back whose gambling problem has him in debt to loan sharks. And he says the preacher deals his note cards out on the pulpit like a gambler because the stakes have never been higher. And I mean that idea of yeah, that's just Schaefer and Schaefer, he does it so much better not to spoke. He's so good.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

He's a master in um uh helping helping you understand biblical worldview. Yes. Um, and uh in fact, he that was the required reading in in my worldview class. Yeah. Um, and we watched his videos, which I just looked at my wife at the time because I think I think we was just before we got married, we took that class together, and I said, I want to dress like him when I'm older. The problem is I'm about 70 pounds heavier than he he was, and I he has hair and I don't. And it was long hair. But man, the the knickers he wore, I mean the socks pulled up. Yeah, he just did not care.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

He was almost like he was like, I am who I am.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

He was he was fantastic. He was he was good, and I mean long long since been with the Lord, but uh he was old when I was watching his videos in the late 70s, early 80s, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:07

He was all he was old way back when. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:09

Um and just a couple more that I'll let Scott take over. Uh between the two Between Two Trees by Dr. Shane Wood, which is a recent um uh published one of the best books. Yeah. Shane Shane Shane is a uh and again uh he probably would never listen to this and probably wouldn't be wouldn't remember me, but well, I've met Shane several times. Um he's uh at Ozark Christian College and stuff, but uh he's he's just so genuine. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:32

He's the one in that book who has the concept that God could not experience death because death required sin to experience, and so therefore Jesus uh had to come to experience sin, not to sin himself, but to but to experience the sin of mankind so that death could be accessed and defeated. Yeah, and just the way he puts that is mind-blowing. Yeah, it's really good stuff.

SPEAKER_00 38:54

It's a very good book. Yeah, very good book. Um, and then I already did Ethics, so that good. Um, and then the case for yeah, any of the least tribal. Any of the case for's are really good. Uh my favorite one is case for creator.

SPEAKER_01 39:07

Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_00 39:07

Um I don't know that I've read that one. It is so good. I think I've read most of it. It is so good. I I've read all of his case for's Easter, Christmas, everything. Um, but his case for creator was was uh because my mind is uh because being an atheist for you know the first part of my life, uh my mind is very science oriented. I wanted to be a paleontologist. I mean, I was I was all in that stuff, but um yeah, his his case for creator was just so good in explaining creation and the and so um so but coincidentally with my juniors, if you're listening to this, you need to get your reading done. Um May 7th, it's due. Uh I have them I have them reading Case for Christ. Start now, guys.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Don't be like me. I have May 6th at like midnight. I'd start. And that's a don't please don't be like me.

SPEAKER_00 39:55

I I have them uh reading Case for Christ. Um uh the abridged student version. Uh because the other one, there's just no way they'd have finished it with all their workload. But um but any any of the case fours are they're excellent, are awesome.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

I had those under my um my apologetics.

SPEAKER_00 40:11

And I've got more, but um we'll let you go.

SPEAKER_01 40:13

Speaking of apologetics, I'll go through my little apologetics list. Uh Evidence that demands a verdict by Josh McDowell, recently re-edited by his son Sean. Um good stuff. Cold Case Christianity by Jay Warner Wallace. Great one detective, uh, investigative detective who went through and studied the evidence and became a Christian. The Case War series, of course, that Dan just talked about. That's by Lee Strobel. Um, Lee Strobel and I Don't Have Enough Faith to Be an Atheist by Geisler and Turek.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah, that was so good. That was that was just And Geisler's no longer with us, uh, but Norman Geisler. He's he's even got a uh book called uh Is it Christian Ethics? Yeah, and he's he's got it was really dry and it was one of our readings in college, but man, his so valuable now.

SPEAKER_01 40:55

His uh the main thing I'll uh the Oh uh crud. I can't remember anyway. Um his foundations book um and I'm gonna have to look it up because Christian Apologetics, um sis systematic theology, yep. Yep. And uh just that was amazing. Uh really, really good stuff dry, yes, but really very informative. Just stuff you can lock away and keep. Um so yeah. Um my let me go through a few for with Max. Uh I've got five that I would hold dear. I probably preached 80% of these chapters as sermons before I knew how to preach. Um, because I I was at my home church and we needed a preacher, and so I was doing my best and I didn't know how to write a sermon. And so I was reading Max Licato books, going, wow, this sounds like a great sermon. Yep. And then I'd write, I'd I'd read it and then I'd write it down in my kind of my own stuff and do the biblical references. And but uh in the grip of grace, which is his treatment of Romans, um God Came Near, uh, which is of course a Christmas book, Six Hours One Friday, which is an Easter book, uh, A Gentle Thunder and He Still Moves Stones are um and I I would save just just the three in the Grip of Grace, a gentle thunder and he still moves stones. And what one did you mention?

SPEAKER_00 42:09

Uh uh it was the uh No Wonder they call him Savior.

SPEAKER_01 42:11

Yeah, yeah, no wonder they call him Savior. Those four, if you're if you're just struggling with faith, he does such a good job of bringing making faith real on just a kind of an every man's basis. And so uh Max old old Max stuff is really good. His latest stuff is is still pretty good. Yeah, he went through a phase there where I just could not read his books.

SPEAKER_00 42:30

Yeah, I think the last Max Zucato book that I read was um uh oh, it's the it's the one that's got orange cover on it. Okay. Oh yeah, I I know yeah. Good grief. Now that's gonna bug me. And uh look that up. Yeah, he'll look it up while I'm going.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

Uh a few that'll be off the radar for most of you. Um the first one is Letters from the Mountain by Ben Palpont. Um, Letters from the Mountain is Ben's letters to his daughter, who is getting into kind of the writing and literature and teaching life. And it's kind of like you're dipping into a private conversation between a dad and daughter, and it's brilliant. It's absolutely just some of the best stuff I've ever read. I read it on sabbatical a couple years ago while I was sick with COVID flu and everything else. Um, but then if you're into poetry, he has a book called An Axe for the Frozen Sea, which is a phrase that poets use when they can't, when they have writer's block. And so they need an axe to go against the frozen sea to break it apart.

SPEAKER_00 43:30

Remember that.

SPEAKER_01 43:31

And so it's good.

SPEAKER_00 43:32

I'm currently suffering from writer's block.

SPEAKER_01 43:34

Ben Palpont. And uh, he actually uh what it is is interview interviews with poets on on their muse and what what they what they find to write. Um a book that and they're both uh Christian themed. Ben Palpont's a great Christian. This one is not Christian themed, and I would also warn you a little bit about the language in it, but it's a book called Native by Patrick Laurie. Um and it's a book about birds in Galways, uh, Ireland. And it's I don't know why I love that book so much, but But he's a literature, he has a master's in literature and he's a farmer, and he writes about what he sees. And it's another one of those books that's just uh brilliant, and uh I I love that stuff. James Harriet's All Creatures Great and Small series, which is of course on PBS and been done and redone, but um wonderful Christian series um about him and his life as a veterinarian. Um, and then I have some listed church leadership, the four church leadership books that probably have helped me the most to understand things, and one I'm presently reading, and uh it's been recommended to our uh elders by one of our elders, Jeff, and um I'm so glad he did. It's it's become more and more important. Uh Simple Church by Tom Raynor is the first one, but the one that we're presently reading is Leadership is Homegrown Leaders by Jim Putman. And uh just Jim's the man. Man, I tell you, I I think every elder in church should read this book. And I'm only in chapter five, and I am convinced that this is this is gonna be one of those claring call books for the church, especially moving into the future. Um, When God Builds a Church by Bob Russell, which is just Bob at his best.

SPEAKER_00 45:05

That was my very first that was the the source of my well, obviously scriptures always, but uh I use that book, my very first sermon series as a senior pastor in the church in Kimberly.

SPEAKER_01 45:15

I it's good stuff in there. I mean, I and I've been able to, of course, spend time with Bob and met the elders that he talks about in the book. And uh they're just it's fascinating. Yeah, um, and Andy Stanley, who's recently you know fallen in fallen into disfavor, but he has two early books that I would highly recommend. He's a he's a moron. He is. And I and I well, I'm glad you said it. But he has become, but he didn't start he didn't start off that way. He's the son of uh Charles Charles Stanley. The the greatest 22-point preacher I've ever heard. And um, and honestly, Charles Stanley, he would he would have points and he'd and you he'd finish, and you're like, gosh, he had 23 points. That had to be an hour and 15 minutes already. He got it done in like 27 minutes. So you're like, how in the world? Yeah, but um uh and you didn't feel cheated. But Andy's book, Visioneering, which is based on the book of Nehemiah um from scripture, is excellent. And his book on preaching is probably the most influential book I ever read on preaching, and it's called Communicating for a Change. And um he he creates a method, or he's got a method in that book. I don't know if he created it, but um, he's got a method in that book called the Mi We God You We method. And I still use that when I'm one point preaching. Even if you see three points in one of my sermons, I'm still one point preaching. And um, but it's just a way to get people on board with you and then challenge them at the end to actually do something. And uh it's a fast, but it's a structure, a skeleton I can keep in my head when I'm preaching to the city. I've never read that, but it was me we god you we. So me is me we god you we you'll notice a lot of times, like this past week, I used sticky glue. Have you ever used sticky glue and stuck your fingers together? So, and a lot of people, of course, raise their hands and we're doing the sticky finger thing, and so that's the me part, but you don't do it to put you on display, right? You do it so that everybody will start getting on board this little wagon with you. And then when you go, me is very short, but the we is when that transition's over. We go through this. This is the problem, right? And then God. That's the Bible. How does God address this and what what happens? And then the you is the challenge. Challenge. Um, you you have to do this. This is you. God says do this, so you have to do this. Right. And then you go back to we, and the reason you go back to we is because then you kind of it's a collective response. It is. It's what what if we all did this? Yeah. That that kind of idea of what if we all actually loved our neighbor the way the Bible says, or what if we all forgave and and you create a vision of a world that is actually influenced by Christianity. And so um honestly, I probably use that method 95% of the time when I'm writing, and um uh it's just something that kicks in the back of my head, and I'll actually correct myself on it. But um, just a good book if you're if you're into communicating anything really.

SPEAKER_00 47:56

You are a you are you are a properly trained preacher. Yeah, well I I had one, I had a homiletics class and then maybe yeah, I think it was just homiletics. So that was my introduction to being a preacher.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

Well, I'm not I'm not I never had homiletics. Okay. Um, because Reno didn't teach it at the time. Um I did have I had three, I had uh exeget uh uh exegetical preaching, which was basically four of us in a class learning how to do sentence diagrams of Greek. Right, um is basically what it was. Which is it's terrible. Uh it is. It's it's mind-numbing and I and I hated it. And I came off, I I'm not saying the professor was bad. I came off with the wrong, I got an A in the class, but I came off with a bad idea of how to exegete. I had to read, I had to learn how again. And so in my advanced preaching class and stuff like that, I I I was I had been preaching for 10 years when I actually went to school for it. So you know, I kind of had a what I had was I had a couple of mentors who sat me down and said, Okay, you this sermon was a good one, but you lost me here. Right. And they they took good notes. And I'm thankful because they act that feedback actually made me a better preacher over time. And I'm I'm convinced now that mentors do a do a better job a lot of times teaching us how to preach. I would agree.

SPEAKER_00 49:18

I mean, they did a great job because you're you're in my top three favorite preachers. I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_01 49:22

And I love listening to you, buddy. I I and honestly, I I sat in the back of his teaching class of his uh Connect class the other day. I don't know why, guys. Listen, if you come to Broad Creek, get in a Connect class. There's no sense not to. If you want to know the Bible, get into Dan's Connect class. I mean, he'll teach you the Bible, it's awesome stuff. And so um throw a plug in there for teaching.

SPEAKER_00 49:39

Yeah, and I uh I I approach it from purely a tea because I love teaching. Yeah. So so preaching and teaching to me are are similar, but there's there's a difference. There's a difference. Yeah. Um, but I I take the more teacher style with that. But um, yeah, I didn't it just just comes out. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:57

And that's how it is for preaching for me. I just it's just it's become so I guess I've been preaching now for 28 years, and so I I really enjoy it. But I'm also thankful, and it's like I tell my son all the time, I don't get up there at any point in time hoping that someone tells me I did a good job. Right, right. And I think attitude and where your heart is matters more than uh even your I hate to say this, even your preparation in a way, um, preparation is very important, guys. If you don't prepare, you're gonna lose it. Yes. But um, if your heart's not in the right place with it, if you if you're look if you're looking for someone to come and tell you you did a good job, um then I think you're I think I don't think you're preaching. No, no, you're you're performing. You're performing.

SPEAKER_00 50:38

Yeah, and that's that that's the same with music and everything. So no, I I I was uh um always told uh by mentor uh preachers that um you gotta you gotta learn to to get them at the beginning. Me. And then we yeah, and then you've you've got to learn how to land the plane. Yeah, yeah. A plane is a great method for land the plane, don't be hovering, land the plane. Yep. Um and so like like man, this is the early days of like giving messages and stuff. Oh my gosh. I started preaching at 15 because that's you know, it was a youth sundae, and so then like uh and then so the pat Pastor Wayne would have me do it every now and again after that. But I I was I was terrible. Oh man. And then like I I'm just like thinking about the the it would have been nice to read a book that like you know helped me formulate things, but um, I I can remember one time and and I know this is off topic, but it's okay. It's a podcast. Yeah. Um we And it's ours, so we get to do what we want. Do whatever the Lord leads. Turn it off if you don't want to listen. That's right. Um, no, we uh um I I started like we were told like to get the attention, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so like like um I it was probably I think it might have been my Utah ministry. I stood up there and I just yelled, I am a sinner, like really loud. And I'm like, okay, I got their attention. Good job there, Jonathan Edwards. But then I'm like, where do I go from there? Like it had nothing to do with my sermon. I just wanted to get their attention, so I got it.

SPEAKER_01 52:05

So Oh, if I if I had to go through what Long Acre had to go through with me the first few years, I would have I would have shot me and thrown me in the woods. But what those people put up with um allowed they gave me such freedom to and I good I knew Bob Maldon, Tony, Tony Krantz, I knew those guys, and they were tremendous storytelling ministers. Like I don't even I before I came here I did. I think when I got here, I got blasted over a few things early on, not by the leadership, but the leadership was always has always been awesome, but by a few people, and they're like, hey, you don't need to do this, you don't need to do this. And so it kind I kind of shied away from more of the stories to begin with. And I think that was a mistake because that's more than that's you, it's you. It's me, it's too authentic. It's it's me and you're a great storyteller, right? And and I love thank you. I and I appreciate that. But it it really because I want them to be effective. I want right, I want these stories to connect people to scripture. Right. You want them if you're not building bridges with them, then they don't matter. And so, but if you can tell a story that brings somebody back to the truth of scripture, and you can say, Well, that's why the scripture says this, and then they go, ah, you know, that aha, that oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 53:17

And see, my wife's out my wife will tell me, Dan, you need to have more stories. I I didn't I'm not a I'm not a big story. I don't think it's your style.

SPEAKER_01 53:24

I think you're very effective in communicating the Bible and what it says.

SPEAKER_00 53:27

Scripture, this is what it says, do what it says. Yeah, you know, but one of the date David Haynes, who was a uh professor of mine, um, he always instilled into us, you always, and no matter what you're talking about, the gospel has to be presented. Yeah, yeah. And so I always had the back of my mind that that we're going to in some way, at some point, we're gonna get into the gospel message.

SPEAKER_01 53:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

Um, because church is for the believer.

SPEAKER_01 53:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:53

But we have to understand that non-believers may be present.

SPEAKER_01 53:56

Yep. And if and if you listen to gospel every week, which we do every week, if you listen to the gospel every week, then when the gospel, when you have an opportunity to present it, you at least have a smattering of an idea how to do it. Yeah. And and that's that's something that I don't think a lot of churches do anymore, is that they don't present the gospel. You can be contemporary and preach the gospel, it's not about falling away from it. And and that's and honestly, I I have to credit Andy's book, Communicating for a Change, partly to that, because the the we part of it, the last part of it, always has to be, hey, we're this is the gospel. We're living the gospel. This is who Jesus is. And so, um, so I'm thankful for that. Um I had two uh the art and craft of biblical preaching, which is a collection of articles by Hedon Robinson, is really good. And Between Two Worlds by John Stott was really good. But that spoke more to the um aspect, the devotional aspect of a preacher, which I still I I think I do a decent job preaching. I my devotional life is where I have to continue to grow, and I think I will. But the the better I get at being devotional in my life apart from sermon, the better my sermons are, yeah, more effective they are. And I know that. And so I I have to work hard on the city.

SPEAKER_00 55:11

I've got the same, I've got the same issue because I I study the Bible so much, but it's studying the Bible for teaching and preaching and you know, my dissertation, I mean whatever it is, yeah. Um, the devotional aspect of my study time is where I always lack.

SPEAKER_01 55:26

And that's hard for me too. I I and I understand completely because I I'll I'll j I like I've got these fun books down here that I want to read. Yeah, but all these books are books that when my mind becomes so overloaded with scripture and I'm not able to separate it, then I jump into these other books just to exercise my mind a little bit and get myself out of it, and then I can probably move back into it. And I guess what we're talking about, guys, is we're just being very transparent that a devotional life is not an easy life to live. It's not something that comes naturally. If it comes naturally to anyone, I I've never met a naturally devotional person. I've I've I've met people who are great at devotional lifestyles, but they've worked at it. Yeah, it's something that they've paused and they schedule time and stuff. I I love doing devotions. I love reading. I but I really wish I had I really wish I had two, three hours a day that I felt like I could just sink into devotional.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

And I really wish we there was more choices for devotional material. Yeah, because they're a lot of it is so cheesy and basic. Yeah. Um and if that's if if basic is what you need, do that. Do it, do it. Um but I have I have a hard time as uh as where I am in my in my Christian uh uh adventure with Christ right now is is I I'm I've not on a on that level. I I need I need more that's going to challenge my mind. And so I I even picked up a um uh a Hebrew what was it uh um devotions from the Hebrew Old Testament. Yeah. Uh which is and it all points to Christ. And so um so that that challenged me a bit. But once that was done, I was like, you know, I yeah, and I have some that I read every now and again just because yeah, um, just that little extra just, yeah, yeah. I didn't, you know.

SPEAKER_01 57:11

Maybe as far as devotionals go, uh you know, and I was thinking my utmost for his highest by Oswald Chambers. Yeah, and and even though that's very old and the language is old, you you cannot fault Oswald Chambers for the level of devotion that he puts into that book. And there's times when I'm so far off kilter with my whether I'm doing soap studies or whatever, that I'll just stop and go back and read my utmost for his highest. And um, and I also love that Lecture 365 app, even though I feel like that's not for everybody. And there's sometimes when I'm reading that and I'm going, nah, that's a little off. But um uh it's still, you know, it's still something. I would say make time, open your Bible, pray that God will help you understand it, and then read it, and then pray that you can apply it. And um and just slow down. Morning and evening.

SPEAKER_00 57:59

Yeah, morning and evening by uh um Charles Spurgeon. Yep, is a good one.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

So another good one. So both good devotionals that you guys can probably pick up.

SPEAKER_00 58:09

I I would recommend staying away from, and this is probably gonna upset a few people, but that's what I do. What's it called? Um the uh uh one by Sarah Young. Jesus Calling. Jesus Calling. Yeah, yeah. That's the one I thought you were gonna say. That's terrible theology. Yeah. So if you're reading that stuff, I would recommend please stop. Yeah. Don't give it to your kids.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:31

Um, and you can do your own research on her. Yep. Um, but I've not found her to be uh biblically biblically accurate in a lot of ways, a lot of feeling, a lot of uh uh new age-yep type stuff.

SPEAKER_01 58:46

Yeah, a lot of that, again, that transcendentalist idea of of um Christianity that kind of realms over into philosophy and universalism, new age, yeah, uh new thought. Yeah. I was like Robert Fulgham. I loved um everything I ever needed to know I learned in kindergarten. Loved it. I read that book, loved it, absolutely. I was a young Christian, and I thought, well, he's talking about a lot of Christian things, but I wasn't smart enough to understand that he was a universalist. Yes. And there was a lot of what he was writing that was universalism. Yes. And it messed me up. You know, as a young preacher, it really because again, I wasn't as deeply theological as I should have been. Right. My path to preaching was very different. And so um, it was hard for me to differ. I mean, I I got into Christian uh Christian philosophy side of it, where I was bringing in Random Mariah Rilke and even Voltaire to a point where I was reading those things and going, well, this ties in, and and there was really nobody able to rein me in and say, No, no, no, no, no. You know, this isn't what you need to be reading. And uh so for a while it was confusing. Now I can read that stuff. Yeah, and it's fine because I get it, because I understand what you believe. But again, I absolutely as a mature Christian, I would say if you're if you're new to Christianity or you're not you haven't grown in your Christianity, stay away from things that are going to harm you and and Fulgum will harm you. I think. Um not not uh just like uh Pulley, who you mentioned a while ago, or Pullman. Pullman Pullman, Philip uh Pullman. Philip Pulley actually is a Quaker minister who wrote the Front Port series. That's actually really good. Um but um Philip Pullman wrote the um series about spirit animals and oh yeah, yeah, the the the darkness something not the darkness.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:31

What's it called? They did a movie a while back with Nicole Kidman called the Golden Compass.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:36

Yes, it was the Golden Compass was one of the parts of the uh was one of the books. So do you have any other books? I've got a few more. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:42

Um Kingdom of the Colts. Oh, yeah. By uh Walter Martin. We actually uh used that in our Colts podcast we talked about. Um let's see. If you hear rustling, I'm stealing candy corn from the knows the way to my heart. Coffee and candy corn. Uh the B series by uh Warren Wersby. I love Warren Wersby. He's he is so good. No longer with us, a baptist minister, theologian. Um uh his his his commentaries are so good because they're they're I wouldn't call them devotional commentaries, but they're really good for for pastors needing just some just another viewpoint. Viewpoint, and and like maybe maybe you're struggling with like you know, how do I word this point that I want to make of this passage? And and and he just he just got it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:31

Yeah, I've used that stuff plenty of times.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:33

Let's see here. I've got uh The Cradle, the Cross, and the Crown uh by uh Andre uh Kassenberger. Um uh he's one of the authors. So good. Um I've not read that, but I've heard good things about it. And I say Andre, it's probably Andres. Um anyway, he's he's a professor at Liberty right now, um, but he's a world-renowned expert in John, uh, the Gospel of John. In fact, he was had a chance to be, I had a chance for having to be as my my mentor. Right. Uh, but Dr. Laird, the guy I have now, is phenomenal. So I'm I'm excited for for that. Awesome. Um, for my dissertation. Um Shepherding a Child's Heart by Ted Tripp Um really got my wife and I through the challenges of my uh raising my son. And I I know my son doesn't listen to the podcast, but uh he he tells me uh he tells me everybody's got a podcast, Dad. Um he doesn't listen to any podcast, so but anyway, uh I thought it was really special that we had podcasts. I know. I was like, yeah, we're unique, aren't we? Uh but anyway, he um uh Ted Tripp does a really good job with um how how you know because my son was a handful. I mean it Naomi was the piece that that we we needed. Right. I wanted six kids, okay. Right. Had Micah, and I looked at me and I said, maybe just one. Bless his heart. Okay, uh, but uh but he's a good kid now. Um but anyway, um we uh that that helped us a lot. Um also uh where'd it go here? I'm looking at my Kindle page here. Uh the resolution for men. Yeah. Um it's a challenge that's based off of the the movie Courageous by the Kendrick Brothers. I've never read that. Um it's so good. Uh I've taken many men through it. We did a little men's retreat one time, uh, gone through that, and and you know, you you sign a covenant at the end, um, the resolution. That's awesome. Um, but it was it was really good. Um, and then uh let's see here. Oh, the hole in the gospel um by uh what is his name?

SPEAKER_01 1:03:36

Who read that?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:37

It is uh The Hole in in our gospel, it's uh Richard Stearns. Yeah, um he was that it's such a good book. Not a fan by Kyle Eidelman. Yep is really good. First book I ever bought on Kindle. It's not really, really um, and then um I have one here that I really enjoyed. Um it's about C.S. Lewis. Uh it's the life inspired, uh a life-inspired uh C.S. Lewis. It's uh Christopher Gordon. Okay. Um if you want to know more about C.S. Lewis, it's good. Um and then uh again, some some other things that I don't always agree with. Uh because in in theology, you gotta understand there are a lot of and you understand this, uh, but our audience, um, there's a lot of variances of uh theologians in where they are as how they how they take certain things. That's right. Um and so as as one who studies theology uh and and is you know in the in that realm all the time, um I I look at these these books that and this is my pre uh my uh what do you call that? We did it at the beginning. Um what do we call it? The the sorry I'm drawing. When we get when we gave uh when we gave a warning. Oh, disclaimer. Disclaimer. This is my disclaimer, this is my theological world disclaimer. Uh not all theologians agree. Right. We know that. And so the books I'm about to talk about and uh or just address right now uh have some varying uh various views from theologians uh about this. And I know we're getting into uh long time here. Ancient Near Eastern Thought and Old Testament uh by John Walton. Um I can never see it. I just look at it and go, uh-huh. Uh uh Ancient Near Eastern Thought and and the Old Testament. Uh it's introducing the conceptual world of the Hebrew Bible by John Walton. Really good. Uh informational. Um again, these are books that generally you probably aren't gonna pick up. Right. Uh The Bible Among the Myths by John Oswalt uh is really good. Um uh see, and then we have uh uh yeah, I'd I'd throw that one in. The World and the Word. Um and that's by I think Mc McHale. McHale. I'm trying to trying to get it here so I can give you the The correct guy. Merle. Uh, yeah, Eugene Merle. Uh, he's one of the authors in it. Um, really good. Um, again, something that you would probably look at and say, why would I ever pick that up? Um uh the Moody Handbook of Theolog Theology. If you're if you're interested in understanding the different theological um uh pathways in Christianity, uh it's by Paul Enns, E-N-N-S. Uh the Moody Handbook of Theology, he's the he's the editor. John MacArthur uh did the forward with it. But anyway, um it goes through the different theological stances of the church. Uh so Calvinism, Arminianism, all those types of things. Um, it's it's a really good resource. Uh so I I'm kind of diving into the resource books now. Um, but uh but very good resource. Um see, and I had one more I wanted to throw in there. Um I can I can talk all day on this stuff. Um that's why we did this podcast. Yeah, we're like we were gonna do it one way or the other. Yeah, one way or the other it was gonna happen. Um let's see, let's do in what I was telling I was telling Scott before we got on here, like it is so hard to look at books and say that's my favorite. Oh yeah, that's my favorite. That's my favorite, and because like I love I love the the books I have. I mean, I I do. Um let's just go with this. We're gonna go with uh um we used it as a um a uh uh textbook in my master's program, but it's called Perspectives. Um and it's um make sure because it's written by a few different people, uh written, contributed in. Um it is uh Perspectives by edited by Wolf Winter. Wolf Wow is that German? Ralph Ralph Winter and then Stephen Hawthorne. Um, but it's got it's got um uh contributions from a lot of different people, but it's a it's a book on missions. It's uh perspectives on the world Christian movement. So um it's a very good missions book. Very good. Um but it yeah, it's got a reader the Kindle version has a reader and study guide. Uh when they do that. Yeah. Yeah. So again, there there's there's a few more, but for the sake of time, um uh come come check out uh um I've got a pretty extensive library. Um a lot of books I have are digital too. Um but uh like you know, if you if you're looking at Max Ucato books between Scott and I, if you want to borrow a Max Ucato book, we probably have it. We probably have, yeah. So somewhere but but anyway, um yeah. Um come on in and come borrow. I've been trying to file my books. I I have this app on my iPad where you can you can scan the barcode of the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it it puts it in a in a database.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

Well, we got those um kids coming from PCA. Yeah. Maybe someone can scan the rest of my books.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:58

Because I've I've Dan has kept he's he's done a good thing. He's kept most of his books. He's got a rather extensive library. I have founded three libraries where and small libraries, but I just I just couldn't take all my books with me. And so um at the last three churches I was at, the only other three churches I was at, I I kind of founded libraries there. And so I assume they still have them.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:20

If not, they I I did I did a little bit at my Kimberley church, but I had to throw out all the uh uh Amish love stories. And a couple of Joel Osteen books that I was like, nope, that ain't happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:32

The Joel Osteen books were not but Dan's Amish love stories. That that's that's his guilty pleasure.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:38

That's my I can't even say that with a straight face. I tried. I tried. I tried agreeing with you.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:44

Oh big. Uh so as we end this episode, um, I'm gonna throw uh three other things at you, and they're all by the same guy. They're edited, actually. Um, and I and I'll just kind of offer this. Great, great literature. I was a literature major for a while and studied British and American literature, and I love there are things in literature that we come across and we never see again. There are poems that we come across and we never can find them again. And um, if you're like me and you try to keep everything in your head rather than write everything down, um, that have has happened to me a lot. But um, there are three books that I would highly recommend by a guy named William Bennett. Um, William Bennett served in our in our government and um uh great patriot of a guy, and and just uh but in these book compilations, he has done something really special, which is preserve a lot of Greek Roman heritage. Don't let that turn you off because I mean it's good stuff. It's like Plato's Republic is is summarized in there. But then you get into American literature, which is, you know, maybe some summaries of um just books from from the late eight uh eighteen hundreds to into the two thousands that are just valuable. And and it's not full books, but these three are uh and they're they're well qualified, but these three are um the book of man, which is mostly about man things, like how we should how we should do things as men, what we should read as men. Right, right. So a great compilation book. Um and then the book of virtues and the moral compass, which are both I I read through them on days when I just need to read good established literature that doesn't weigh you down, but it makes you feel something. Right. And um the Moral Compass and and the Book of Virtues will have uh children's poems in them, but they'll also have a lot of other stuff. Um Aesop's Fables you may find in there. Yeah. But if you're raising a young man or woman, um, and uh, and of course most of them are Christian values because Bennett's uh has was always a Christian, um, but if you want to read them something valuable like that, um that that you won't go wrong with those other excellent stuff. And so um uh I would just keep you on that. And and Dan started with the Bible, I'll end with it. Um read a Bible. Uh the best the best interpretation is one that you'll read as long as it's not a cult Bible, like the New World Translation or something like that. Or the Book of Mormon. Yeah, the Book of Mormon.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:18

Um the Bible that the Book of Mormons use is tainted as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:22

That's right. You got to be careful with all those. So uh ESV, NIV, you know King James, King James, Homer, King James, CSB.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:30

CSB, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:31

Um, if you're gonna read the read the Bible or or the message, if you're just starting out and reading.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:36

Again, we're not we're not promoting the message as a study. No, no, we're we're presenting it as it's just a good way to read. It's just a way to the word.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:45

When Eugene Peterson says um Jesus moved into the neighborhood talking about his his birth, that's brilliant stuff. Yeah, and and but that's how the message reads. It it reads in just a different fashion. And Peterson was a genius, and um so we're just very thankful for him. Anything you got to add? Uh Lennon?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:04

Read a book, guys. Um Kevin, read a book.

unknown 1:13:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:08

Kevin Whitford, read a book. No, we pick on him. He picks on himself. But no, I uh again, if if you want to if you wanna um you come and and I mean we're we're here most of the week um at the office. If you want to come and just look at some books, um, you know, you're free to you're free to do that. I I I'm speaking on behalf of of uh Scott. Oh yeah. Um we're we're I don't think we're both stingy with our books. No, not at all. I I I have a stamp from the library of Dan Doherty, so in about 10 years you're gonna be looking through like, oh, I feel really bad.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:42

I'll burn the image of you in my brain. No, I'm just kidding. I I I don't loan books out if I'm I I've never loaned a book out that I expected to get back. Yeah, yeah, neither neither of you. But generally they But also don't forget, we have a little library right down here outside our front door to the white building. And you can bring a book and grab a book, or you can grab a book without bringing a book or whatever. Um, but um sometimes there's I'll put oh I'll put baseball cards in there, basketball cards, and um, there's just different things. We've had people put Pokemon cards in there. But um the books themselves are I just I looked through it, the Flanagan series, the Rangers Apprentice. There's four books in the little library down there right now. They're not they don't start with number one, but you can pick up those four.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:21

Right.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:22

Pick up number one and two from the library, read them, and then bring them back if you wanted to. But but those kind of things, but that little library, my wife established that and it's it's one of her little cotton joys. It's a neat thing. It really is. I I know my wife uses it quite often, so yeah. I I'll stop by and look and just see if anybody's put anything in there that that um I want to look at. And um, yeah, just come by and uh come by our offices, come by the little library, get a book, and read a book, yeah, and um, but read the book.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:50

Um fan mail if you uh fan mail us if you have a favorite book. Yeah um you know, I'd love to be something we missed. Yeah, it'd be awesome. Yeah, I'd love to hear. Or an idea for a topic. There you go.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:59

Um yeah, yeah, we're always open to topics. Always open to things. So all right. Well, Dan, I appreciate you. But oh uh, do you have the dad joke three? Or we can just come up with our own. He's like, no, we can't. As he runs out of the room, he's he's jogging out of the room, he runs into the other room. Oh me. And he's running back, telling me to keep talking. You probably heard that. Um, and uh, I still think we could come up with a corny dad joke ourselves.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:32

I'm sure we could.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:33

But um But until we absolutely have to like why was Cinderella so bad at soccer? She kept running away from the ball. Anyway, um I love it. That was pretty good. But no, we need the dad joke 3,000. That's our that's our that's our tradition.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:46

My my wife's favorite joke in youth group when we first started in youth ministry was what do you call a boomerang that doesn't come back?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:56

So everybody right now is rolling their eyes. All right, let's go. Anywho, here we go. Why don't eggs tell jokes? Because they might crack up. Oh, and I miss the that's okay. Oh no, that's Dan's clean band toilet. Sorry, I had to put that in there. All right, Dan, thanks. All right, all right, brother. See you guys. Y'all have a great one, guys. We love you. Take care.