Identifying the Needs of a Church - Needs > Wants

How does a leadership identify a Church's Needs? What does it look like when a leadership does what they want, rather than what the people need.

We invite you to open your bibles to Ezekiel and listen as Dan discusses the implications of God's observations on the leaders of Israel. Then, we discuss what's going on in local churches that look like this.

The dangers of worshipping tradition, church leaders appeasing the big givers and general ignorance on a church's needs are slowly killing churches in the world today. Unfortunately, that's nothing new.

Join us as we discuss what is needed and how to take a different look at the true needs of churches.

Produced, edited and hosted by Scott Askew and Dan Daugherty

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:19

Hey guys, this is the Creek cast with Dan and Scott. We are here today. It is the second week of June 2026, and we are uh clicking right along in our summer at Broad Creek. Man, we got a lot of stuff going on. Dan, how are you doing? Good, tired. Yeah, I tell you, it's uh I know it just started this summer. So summer, uh I guess, I guess a lot of places take summers kind of slow, and we do. We we, you know, small groups generally, a lot of them are taking off and stuff, but we tend to fill our schedule during the summer because we feel like it's a good time to reach out to young families and kids who have the time to uh connect to the church. And so uh it's just one of the things we're gonna talk about today. We're gonna talk about how do you analyze and see the needs of your church and be honest about um filling those needs rather than obeying tradition or obeying what you want or being selfish as leaders and those kind of things. So we're just gonna try to try to divvy in on that. And hopefully what you'll be able to gain from it is how do I address the needs and the things in my life? And what do I what do I do instead of doing it this way because that's how everybody else does it? How do I address the needs in my life and and um and actually do something about them? And so uh yeah, yeah. Um, so anyway, Dan, how's it feel to be out of school?

SPEAKER_04 1:40

Uh well as far as not teaching. I'm not teaching, yeah, but yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still wronging that was a loaded question. Still writing a dissertation. So yeah, so yeah, no, it's it's good. I I I teaching's one of my passions, so it's it's yeah, I really look forward to when school starts.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

So yeah, yeah, weirdo.

SPEAKER_01 1:56

All right, anyway. Um no, no, I I agree. If if uh if you're not performing your passion, it it's it's it hurts. And so uh no, I get that. All right. So as we said, and Dan brought up a really good point, um, and maybe that's where we should begin. Do you think we can begin with Ezekiel? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, he was reading this morning. I'll let him explain his good stuff.

SPEAKER_04 2:15

Yeah, I was I was reading in Ezekiel 34 uh this morning, just uh personal devotional type type thing, and um I got to verses 18 and 19, and it just it kind of floored me uh because Scott and I had already talked about what you know kind of the the the maybe the focus of today's podcast might be and um the needs of churches and stuff like that. And this just hit me as like, man, this is this is something that I have to as a leader have to look at in my own life. And and uh anyway, um so all of Ezekiel 34 really hinges on this um uh Ezekiel addressing the leaders of Israel. Uh but then like right here, it kind of shifts from the leadership of Israel to just the the the people themselves, uh, you know, and so um I'm just gonna read this to you and just kind of give you some commentary with it, um, uh just to help kind of set the stage for today. Because I I really think it it's a really good segue into um when we're talking about what are the needs of the church um and uh our own desires versus the actual needs. Right. Um so it says uh in verse 18 of Ezekiel 34, this is the ESV, uh, is it not enough for you to feed on the ground the good pasture that you must tread down with your feet the rest of your pasture? And to drink of clear water that you must muddy the rest of the water with your feet. And must my sheep eat what you have trodden with your feet and drink what you have muddied with your feet. Um and if you if you look in the in the context of the of the passage, your this shift from leaders to the people themselves, it's exposing how the abuse of power, yeah, um and and uh by by the rulers and the corruption uh by the by the flocks, uh, because it it's a it's a sheep and goat metaphor, is what you get through this. Um the it's the it's the internal relationships that that are existing uh with this. Um and then this this question, these questions are not um uh necessarily to be answered, it's a it's a rhetorical question. You know, I I had a professor one time who loved rhetorical questions, and somebody would always answer it, and he's like, these are rhetorical questions. And so if you don't know the difference between a question and a rhetorical question, a rhetorical question is for you to ponder and not to necessarily answer out loud, but to really think about. And so any anyway, uh these rhetorical questions that uh is really Ezekiel condemning the self-interest among the powerful, that's right, among the leaders. Um, and it's drawing to this uh on on this knowledge of of uh and this is what the Bible does over and over again. Um, this is was what we call animal husbandry. Yeah, um, but uh the Bible uses metaphor and uh hyperbole and all this stuff over and over and over again. Um and so as as Ezekiel is asking this question, he's he's really trying to draw the attention towards um uh and condemn the the things that people do um that uh illustrates this consuming of the best and leaving nothing else for the others. That's right. Um and so uh it operates uh literally, it describes shepherds um who who who are out there trying to uh monopolize all the the good land and then they leave nothing for their fellow shepherds or fellow um flock members. Um and so I I was thinking about that with the with the church, and it just it just hit me because it I I I see a lot of clips mostly of sermons from people that get posted on online. Um and and I I try before I repost the clip or whatever, I try to find the entire sermon to listen to it. I I'm not a big fan of just um what do you what do you call those uh cherry picking cherry picking and and the the sound bites. Um, you know, I I try to give everybody the benefit of the doubt and say, okay, what what is the context of what they're talking about? Right. Um but when you get to the context, it's just it doesn't make you make the clip any better, usually. So anyway, um so you see you hear all these things of of preachers, and um, you know, if you've ever are on Facebook, there's a there's a uh guy called he's got a page called Holy Nope. Yeah. Um, and I don't agree with his uh all of his stances, and he's Calvinist and I'm not Calvinist, uh type thing, but um nonetheless he's a brother in Christ. And so uh but anyway, like he so he posts all these things that you know, like nope, not gonna go to that church. Right. Uh and and uh anyway, um they're really funny. They are really funny, but you see some of those clips, and it's heartbreaking of pastors uh chastising people for uh who are at the altar giving all their savings and they're telling them that's not enough. I told you this much. Yeah, you know, and and like and you would think that's it's a it's an anomaly. It's not, it's not. It's it's scary. Yeah. Um, of how many churches out there that have leaders and and uh old time members who think they run all the church, yeah. And it becomes about them.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 7:27

And when they do that, they consume all the good.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Right.

SPEAKER_04 7:30

They consume all of the uh all of the the pasture, if you will, in the good water.

SPEAKER_01 7:36

They become fat sheep.

SPEAKER_04 7:37

Right. Yeah and and in the process, as as they're eating the good stuff, the stuff that is that is edible and would be good for others, they're trampling on with their feet, or in the water, they're muddying it with their feet. Um, and so when when when people come to to drink or to eat, and this is all hyperbole, yeah. Um when they come to eat or drink, they they end up with with the the lesser.

SPEAKER_01 8:00

Yeah, and they become lean.

SPEAKER_04 8:02

And they become lean, yeah, and when they become lean, they become sick.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

Yeah, that's right. That's why verse 20, and you may have you may be have been getting ready to read it. Yeah in a minute. Yeah, yeah. Oh no, no, no, no, I'll let you get there, but verse 20 is really good here about that.

SPEAKER_04 8:14

Yeah, yeah. And so you you think about um the way the church operates in our modern culture, e even in our in even our brotherhood, non-denominational churches, stuff like that, um, you don't have to be a denomination to uh abuse your people. Um and I'm not against denominationalism per se. Um I mean, I I've already picked out if I was never a non-denominational denomination, which is what we are, yep, uh, I would be this or you know, type of thing. But like uh what what we what we get is oftentimes our traditions and the desires of our own personal gain trump what scripture actually dictates that we do. That's right. Um, and in the process, we we we leave behind people. Um you know, and we've said it here. Um I got to preach at a church in in Beaufort this weekend. Um, you know, I said it there that oftentimes we're we're about getting people to the to the to the altar to confess Christ and give their life to Jesus, get them wet, and then say good luck. Yeah. And send them out into the wild. Yes. And and to me, that's the equivalent of what Ezekiel's talking about. It's not just the material things, it's not just collecting money, right? Uh it's not just, you know, pastors driving Bentleys and you know, and I'm not I'm not against Well, I'm against pastors driving. But what I'm saying is I'm not against pastors having a good living.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

Sure, absolutely. I think I think a worker's worth his way.

SPEAKER_04 9:46

That's right. That's right. If if a if your pastor works hard, um if if he is uh if he is solid as a as a pastor where they where where he actually uh is a shepherd of sheep, um, you know, and and you pay him fairly and to have a a good living wage for him and his family. And you know, I you know, I you would never I you would never see Scott and myself like taking what what we're earning here at Broad Creek and going to buy $700 shoes on that suit.

SPEAKER_01 10:16

You know, like it's just uh but I waited a year to buy UFOs, UFOs. Yeah, I wanted UFOs so bad, but I waited my birthday was this week, and I my mom gave me a birthday gift and it was enough money to go buy me a pair of UFOs. Right. And I would not spend the money because to me it was a little excessive. I mean, they were like 60 bucks, and and I that was just a little, and I'm a little tight sometimes, but yeah, I I just couldn't justify buying this. So, but when my mom gave me my birthday gift, I was like, oh, go buy me a pair of UFOs.

SPEAKER_04 10:45

So I mean, I'm the guy that you know, any gifts I've ever been given money-wise, any budget or uh not budget, but um, what do you call those uh bonuses and uh pastor appreciation money, stuff like that. I've I've never spent that on myself.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

Right.

SPEAKER_04 11:00

Right never. As a dad, I'm like, what do my kids need?

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Oh, yeah. Well, or what does my what does my wife need? Yeah, and the way I've always I think I've always looked at it is they have all my money all the time. Right. I have nothing else. And so uh we've always had a rule in our family where Christmas money, birthday money, um, those two are ours. If we want to spend them on ourselves, we can. No, you know, no judgment, no, no questions. Because even Stephanie asked me last night, she said, how much do those cost? And I told her, and she was like, Oh, okay. She said that was birthday money. I said, that's right. And she said, okay. And uh, she went on.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

I was like, okay, good. I have no problem spending 120 bucks on a pair of shoes for my kids. Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:38

Oh, yeah, me neither. You know what I mean? Like I'm trying to talk you're in into a really nice jacket for Ireland of $150 jacket. And he's like, Down, I don't need that. I'm like nobody.

SPEAKER_04 11:46

I'm you know, for but for myself, I'm not for me. You can see my toe in these shoes now.

SPEAKER_01 11:53

I don't know where half my clothes come from, honestly. I go in my closet and I'm like, when did I get this? I don't even remember. And it was a gift, I guess, from somewhere.

SPEAKER_04 11:59

I'm a t-shirt holic, so I yeah, whenever I'm with some anyway, we're digressing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But uh, you know, all the say, like it's not just material things that that the church uh consumes and leaves leftovers for others. Uh it's the spiritual nature of who we're supposed to be. It's which is supposed to be all encompassing of who we are, right? Um we're not we're not um we're not people that have a spiritual side.

SPEAKER_02 12:25

Right.

SPEAKER_04 12:26

We are to be all-encompassing spiritual beings. We are created by the creator God to uh to be a um a picture of who he is. Um that's what it means to be created in his image. Yep. Um yeah, with the abilities to love and to and to do the things that God commands us to do. Um, we are to be spiritual all the time. It's not something we compartmentalize and and shut off. That's right. And so as as people, as leaders in the church and as as uh uh longtime members or givers or whatever, um uh we uh we have a tendency of uh leadership being concerned about numbers, yeah, and um longtime members being concerned about what things look like, what things sound like, what thing you know, and and what why when we're doing that, what we're doing, and and this is just this is my take, and this is what I was convicted on with with Ezekiel this morning, was when we do that, we are taking what is supposed to be given to the body of Christ, and we are hoarding it for ourselves, right? And the leftovers are given to the rest. Yeah. And so as long as we have what we need, as long as our needs, our desires are met, as long as this the you know the songs sound like the what I want them to sound like, as long as the the carpet is the color I want it to be, um, as long as the the parking lot is the way I want it to be, um, what we're doing is we're consuming all the good. And then we're we're neglecting the the other people. And so um, I recently had an experience of of a of a lady coming up to me and and telling me that that she is starving for biblical truth. And that's what she was telling me. She's like, I'm so hungry for the word, but nobody has taught me. And my heart was breaking because I'm I'm thinking to myself, how dare any any any mature believer that has people in their congregation that that is uh new to the faith, just expect them to grow just by being there.

SPEAKER_01 14:40

It never happens by us, Moses. Never, it never does happen.

SPEAKER_04 14:43

And that leads me to verse 20. It says, Therefore, thus says the Lord God to them, Behold, I, I myself will judge between the fat sheep and the lean sheep. If you're a fat sheep, you should be scared. Because the reality is that we are so inundated in our culture of this me, me, me, get what you want, um, whatever makes you happy, follow your own heart, and we're ignoring biblical truth. And the biblical truth is that everyone is deserving of the gospel of Jesus Christ, everyone can be saved, everyone needs to hear that Jesus saves and everyone can be a disciple. Yeah, and should be a disciple. Like every believer, everybody who comes to Jesus should be entered into discipleship.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

Yep. And become a disciple maker.

SPEAKER_04 15:42

And become become a disciple maker.

SPEAKER_01 15:43

For the for the for to be complete.

SPEAKER_04 15:45

Right. Yeah. And so but but so often t we we look at the church and we say, Well, I I really, I really like this, or I really like and and the common denominator there is I.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Right. Yeah. And when people come and they're visiting different churches and they you know, I I we had someone a while back say, you know, we we go to different churches almost every week. Yeah. Uh, we'll eventually decide on one. And I'm and I wanted to say, well, how do you know? I mean, if you're going, I would get confused. Uh, was it this church? Or and I always tell people, give it four to five weeks, you know, and and maybe six weeks, and really, really get to know some folks and see if it see if it's something that you can plug into because it's not about whether you like it or not. It's about is God gonna use your gifts and abilities there to bless the congregation, bless the family. Um But yeah, you're right. We see it we have too much of ourselves.

SPEAKER_04 16:36

Yeah, and it's it's scary because you know, how how is that any different than what Ezekiel and go read read Ezekiel 34? Um, how is that any different than what Israel was doing? Oh it's it's not their leaders were corrupt. Yeah and I'm not saying like if you I'm not saying every every leadership is corrupt. I what I'm saying is that inadvertently, uh indirectly, uh oftentimes we give into our well, this is what I want, this is what the way I think I should be. Or what the way things I think should be. Um and I don't know that a lot of times it is a it is a cognitive um uh thought process of man, I really want to screw this person up.

SPEAKER_00 17:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:17

Or I I I I really want I really want to separate, yeah. I I really want to separate the the fat from the lean. Excuse me. You know, but um you know, the pat pastors who know who gives what.

SPEAKER_00 17:28

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:29

I think that's ridiculous because what that pastor's gonna be tempted to do is always feed the fat sheep.

SPEAKER_01 17:35

Yep. If that person comes and they want their income to continue. That's right. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:39

And which I'm glad we don't know what people do. Yeah, Scott, and I have no idea what you give. None. We don't know what each other gives. We don't, I mean, it's and it should be that way. And and I think, you know, when we get this, when we get this construct in our minds that that church is about me, um, man, you're gonna you're gonna you're gonna give into uh those things all the time. Like if if I had my way, we'd do metal worship every Sunday. Yeah.

unknown 18:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:07

Really? I or or Folk. Yeah. Folk meeting. I was gonna say I I got the two extremes here. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_01 18:13

I would lean towards like Andrew Peterson, Rich Mullins, yeah. The folk eye, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:17

Folky style. But yeah, but guess what? It's not about me.

SPEAKER_01 18:20

No, uh, if it was about me, it would be a lot different. Right. But again, it's not even something I really want to do.

SPEAKER_04 18:26

What what what I what I consider myself uh to to have to do every every week is make sure that the words we are singing, no matter what style of music it is, but the words that we are singing are glorifying to God.

SPEAKER_01 18:42

Yeah. Because there's a lot of songs out there, modern and old, that uh, and I the one that always pops in my head is the the church in the wild woods, because there's nothing, there's not a whole there's nothing in that song that I can think of. It is just about a church building off in the woods. Yeah and really we would sing it growing up and I would love it because it was that oh come, come, come, come, you know that, and uh, but it it really is not a praise song to God, it doesn't lead our hearts to God, it leads our hearts to to I hate to say it because if you're singing it and you're listening to this podcast and you're going, Well, we sang that this past week. I'm not condemning you, I'm just saying think about the words that are in that song because when I really started thinking about it, I was like, Man, we're I think we're worshiping memories. I think we're worshiping a memory of I think we're worshiping a church. Yeah, well, and that a memory of how I felt when I was there and doing that. And um, and there's nothing wrong with honoring memories, there's nothing wrong with remembering things and feeling good about those memories, but you can't worship right those church or memories. You can't I mean, and that I think that's a problem.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

It you know, and it can go into communion, it can go into all these, like you know, uh if if you're a person that um taking communion and and you don't really spend time to reflect before you take it, and you just you know start talking to your neighbor, stuff like that. Um that's an Yeah, that that's a that's uh Paul, that's pretty clear. Yeah, you come with a heart ready to worship him during communion, but also I think you can you can worship communion.

SPEAKER_01 20:09

Yeah, I think so.

SPEAKER_04 20:10

Well, I think you can worship not the one who you're supposed to worship, that's right, that's right. But you're worshiping this, this, oh, this is this is communion. Now you need to, yeah, you know, uh it so we've got to be very careful that we're we're we're directing our worship not to ourselves or to make ourselves feel self-righteous, but we're worshiping the one who deserves it. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 20:29

And and and I think a lot of times churches just and it's not again, it's no offense churches, but I just don't think churches quite get there. Right. I think they get to the place where they're like, well, I've been doing it this way for a long time, and this is why we do this, and this is just me singing songs. Because if you you know, you go into sometimes I've been told that we don't sing uh, you know, if we sing uh an older chorus, an older hymn, we why didn't we sing the fourth verse? You know, and I'll because when I was young, my yeah it stood up and then. But most of you didn't even sing all of them.

SPEAKER_04 20:59

I mean honestly.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

Well they thought they did, because sometimes the hymnals would sometimes the hymnal would have three verses, but the real psalm. The real song has five, yeah. And so, you know, and and it's always so funny because we we um we draw those measures and we we set those things down. And and the same thing in church leadership. I I think sometimes church leadership can look at something and say, you know, we we always joke the seven words that kill a church, we've all we've never done it that way before. Um but the why do you know tell me why you do this? Why do you why do you do this this way? And is this the best way? And are there other agreeable ways that we can do it that aren't contradictory to worshiping God? And and those are all valid questions. But if your answer is gonna be, well, we've always done it this way before, then that's a man, that's a sign that you are not. I don't know that you're you maybe you're worshiping God, but it sounds like to me you're worshiping uh a tradition or a set of rules that um we We we don't have to be bound by in that's my heart.

SPEAKER_04 22:06

Sure. Um, you know, and they and they, you know, oh, uh, we need a new building. Well, you don't have people to fill the building. Right. You know, and so so you w but it's it's it becomes a want. Or or we we need this or we need that. And it's like, well, okay, I and it's that almost like that that that construct of if you build it, they will come uh with whatever it is. But I think to honor God, you've got to you've got to see the need, the need, yeah. The need, not the desirable want. What is the need, right? What is the need and to address the need in a God honoring way? And so uh what what I think our churches need to do more of is embrace the idea of methodology can change, but the message never does. That's right. And so, how do you take that message, this this long-enduring gospel truth, the the scriptures, the word of God, how do you take that and um reach people in your current culture with that truth? That's right. And and it's gonna take you because it takes me. I'm I'm fairly young, I'm you know, 45 years old, and uh, and I still have I'm very old school minded uh because that's the way I was raised.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

That's that was my church. My church was only hymns and only the only certain thing, you know, you you I I would turn away at the door if I showed up in short in shorts to go put pants on, you know, like like so so that's that's what my my memory is. And so and so in my heart, in my mind, like I'm like, well, let's just do church this way. But it's like, wait a minute, what about the people who've never been to church? What about the people, you know, and so and so we But we can't, but we we have trouble connecting that.

SPEAKER_01 23:47

That's right. And they do that's and like you said, the cart before the horse. We have trouble, we we are like, okay, wait a minute, what is the purpose of the church? Is the church a uh like a a living room where we all get together and we just you know love each other and everything's fine and we're just this family? Or is it an open invitation and and that's churches make that decision without making that decision? Yeah, yeah. And uh, and that I it again breaks my heart to see, you know, oh well, uh and the reason I say that, and I I have someone I love very much who who mentioned it to me this week, and they weren't complaining, they weren't, they weren't, they weren't saying anything wrong. They they simply said they came to Broad Creek and they simply said, I'm just used to people dressing up to go to church. Right. And they didn't say it was wrong, but they were used to they said that's what I'm used to. And I was like, and I said, I respect that. And they said, I know I'm old, and I said, it's okay, and and uh it's all right, and um, but and we know who it was, but but but um it's still that's that's what we that's what we deal with because we we identify as Christians and we think that that means that the the church that we go to we identify as that church and that's okay. I would much rather you identify as Christian in Christ and let the church be what it what it should be. That's right.

SPEAKER_04 25:03

Because uh the the heart of a disciple will say, I wouldn't man, I'm so used to this, or I would much rather this, but yeah, it is not a it's not a salvation issue, right? Um and and so what do what do I need to do to take the truth of scripture and make it real for the for the culture today? Because it in my estimation the two greatest decades of the church in our in our lifetime and in and in most of our congregation's lifetime was the 50s and the 80s.

SPEAKER_00 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:41

That's I mean, just me looking at history. Um I was I was fairly young in the 80s, so I don't remember, and I was an atheist, so uh raised that way anyway. But um, but though when you look at historical documents and and and church trends, the the the 50s and the 80s, and when unfortunately, a lot of our churches want to stay in those two decades because that's when they were most successful. And so, but we we gotta realize that doesn't work anymore. No, those methods do not the truth still works.

SPEAKER_01 26:16

Yeah, well, and the truth should be the only thing that ever really works.

SPEAKER_04 26:19

It's it's like when when when when we preach, um, I have a hard time with, and I've said this before, I have a hard time with illustrations um because almost every illustration that I find is is very, very old. Yeah. Very, very old. Yeah. And so um a lot of times like like in in our preaching to make it relevant, um, you know, it's it's kind of why I stray away from a lot of um illustrations and and storytelling, unless it's like it's very pertinent or whatever, because I believe the Bible speaks very clearly. And so it's my job to teach the scriptures in a clear manner, right? Um, and allow scripture to interpret scripture and to do all those things. Um, and and I'll use personal stories and stuff like that to try to try to tie it together. Um, but yeah, I mean there's there's whole websites, sermonillustrations.com, and you look up a topic and you're like, good grief, that was from the reader's digest in 1985. It's like, oh, the 80s. Or that story comes from 1955. It's like, oh, the 50s. Uh, and so we want to live there. Uh, but okay, so the truth is still the truth, it's been the truth for thousands of years, right? So, how do you get that truth into our modern culture and not not destroy the truth?

SPEAKER_01 27:34

Right.

SPEAKER_04 27:35

And because the truth is what will set you free, it's not the method. The method just brings people to the word of God. Right. And then we so part of that is laying along, laying aside our desires and our wants and saying, How am I gonna reach this this culture, this land with with the gospel truth? Um, how how do how do families fit into this? How do how do children fit into this? Um, you know, you can be proud of your building, you can be proud of your you know, your your playground, you can be proud, but that is not a that is not a measure of church health.

SPEAKER_02 28:10

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:11

A measure of church health is not even size of church.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:15

A measure of church health is changed lives who are discipling and making disciples. Yep. That's a healthy church. Our church, and we've talked about this, our church could could remain at just 375, 400 people, and that that would be fine if that's what God wants. We could be a hundred people, and that's fine if that's what God wants. The point of the of the church is not what size are you, but how healthy are you in the way that your people's lives are changed.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:46

And are they continuing to change? Are they continuing to disciple other people? And are they community uh outreach-minded, right, seeking to make um make disciples of all nations, starting in our Jerusalem. That's that's that's church health.

SPEAKER_01 29:01

Yeah, absolutely. I uh we had an elder at my last church and he always said, Look, you you can't expect a church to outgrow the spiritual level, the spiritual maturity of your leadership. Right. And um I I think you know, and and again, I'm not I don't want to blast or put on blast any any church leaderships, but I know a lot of church leaderships that are they they're very they they're very me focused. You know, I I um I want this and I want this and I think it needs to be this way. And um I there was a guy in a church that I used to be at, and he's he would often um tell me that they did this 80 years ago and they did this 60 years ago and they did this. And um there was when when we did Sunday school, we would get together at 10 and they had a of course we had Sunday school, and but before we did Sunday school, there was this 10 minutes where we sang a song, announced birthdays, and then went to class. Well, my thing was is we were already telling teachers to get out 15 minutes early, and then we were taking 10 minutes in the beginning, right? And so it was really a 35-minute class, you know, and so I I said, Hey, why don't we just um do away with the beginning? Well, they told me that the fella who ran it every week, he would not agree to it. So this was one of the elders, and so I went to the guy and I said, Hey, I said, I'm I'm proposing that we just do away with the same. And he said, Thank God. He said, he said, This is drug on for years too long. That's awesome. And I was like, Oh, I didn't realize, and he said, No, he said, I just didn't want to go against the elders because I didn't want the elders to be upset with me. He said, but no, if you don't, I he said, I will never have to walk up there again. He was just a humble man, he was just trying to serve the Lord the best he knew how. And so I went back to the elders and I said, Hey guys, I said, he's good with it. I said, He he wishes we had stopped it like 10 years ago. And one of the elders said, Well, my dad started it, and so we're not gonna do it, we're not gonna finish it. And then so the rest of the elders said, Well, what do we do? So I went back to the fella and I said, Um, look, we've got someone, and he named him, and he said, You can tell them that I'm not gonna do it anymore. And if he wants to do it, he can do it. And I went back to the elders and I said, Well, he's not gonna do it anymore. He doesn't want to, he sees this is his way out. That elder got mad at me because I proposed it up and I said, Well, you're welcome to do it. He said, No, you're the preacher, you're gonna do it. I said, nope. I said, No, I'm not. I said, I I think we're I think we're eating time when we could be teaching the Bible. Right. And um, and so he eventually just we we have it just petered out, it just went away. But it was all because uh his dad started it, and and that was just unacceptable to him that we were gonna do anything different. And that's what happens a lot of time in churches. That's why when you look at a church parsonage, the parsonage is is four different styles, you know, it could be Neolithic and then it could be, you know, uh Roman, it could be Ionic or whatever. And and you're sitting there looking at it going, the same person did not build any any different, you know, right. And um, but it's the same way with churches. Churches often stand on four or five different foundations because there were strong-willed people who came along and said, we're gonna do it this way. And a church's foundation is Christ. I mean, we sing songs, it's in the Bible, he is the cornerstone. We we set it at Christ, but we we really feel like this is best. I agree with you. If we had, if I had it my way, I would do a lot of things differently with with the way we do church.

SPEAKER_04 32:30

We'd have we'd have liturgy.

SPEAKER_01 32:31

We would. We'd have more liturgy.

SPEAKER_04 32:33

You and I you and I both like literature.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

And we and we and we do throw it in every now and then. And that's not to say honestly, I've never done liturgy to satisfy myself. I I've done that. There's just a beauty, and I think some people really connect with that. But again, I don't I know that not all do, so we don't do it all the time. Um, I think we can, I mean, I I think we can move communion to the end. I think we can put it in the beginning, I think we can scatter songs. I I think we could do a lot of different things a lot of different ways. The main reason we stay consistent with what we do most of the time is because it when you you can do so many different things during a church service that the uncomfortable nature of it for the average Christian becomes too much for them to bear. They close down and they don't want any more. And so you stay consistent for the most part because their familiarity, the familiarity actually allows them to drop their drop their shields, and you can go in.

SPEAKER_04 33:28

And God, God isn't a God of orderly worship. Yes. And so um I I it's it's it's the same, but it's not the same. It's the reason Paul writes in First Corinthians that that um when it pertains to the gifts of the spirit that that your your church should not be crazy.

SPEAKER_02 33:43

Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:43

I mean, and this is Dan paraphrase, but it it's accurate. Your church should not be crazy just spouting off tongues and everything. There's got to be interpreters because when people come into that that fold, yeah, um, they they shouldn't be confused as to what's going on. That's right. That's right. And that's really why we try to make things that that that we're not we're not robot or we're not robotic about what we do, but there's there's a there's a rhyme and a reason and a in an order of what we're doing because God, I believe God is a God of orderly worship doesn't want us to create confusion.

SPEAKER_00 34:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 34:16

This is why we you know we tell our congregation before something does change, months ahead of time, hey, we're working on this change. Yep, uh, this is coming. Uh prepare yourself for it. Now, whether you listen or read the announcements, that's up to you. Um, but we do, we do, we I think we do a good job trying to prepare people.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

Yeah, I think we do a good job of communicating. And that's one of the things with leadership. You have to be clear, you have to be clear. And yes, we're still not going to get the message to everybody because A, not everybody listens. B, we could make a mistake. I mean, I'm very willing to admit that. Yep. Um, but still, if if you're a church guy, if you're at Broad Creek and you're listening to this, um, have your head buried in the app, but uh sometimes because I mean you need to know what's going on. You should know if there's a meeting, you should know if there's this, and you could come to it if you if you want to. You should know what our events are. Like this weekend, we have the Blueberry Festival and the Wilmington Celebration Choir coming on the same day, and that's a lot, I mean, that's gonna be a long day. But the good part about it is that it's two different complete things, and we'll have a lot of people from the neighborhood coming for the celebration choir because it's been heavily communicated down in the county, especially by Babylon Baptist. But um, and and the Blueberry Festival is gonna be off campus, and it's awesome, and I'm we're looking forward to it. So serving a community. That's right. So you gotta have your head in there. I I think sometimes we also, you know, both of us have recently, well, over the last couple of years, we know churches that are in special situations. We often think if I were to if I were to go to a church and say, okay, what's the number one most important position in your church? And they would probably say the senior minister. And in many churches that might be true. Um, and and we get that. But, you know, I think there's sometimes when you have to look at your needs, like we're discussing, you have to look at your needs and say, wait a minute, we have men who can preach, we have men who can teach, we have women who are leading women's things, we have women's discipleship, we have all this, but our kids are being led by some volunteers who are wonderful people, awesome folks, but they don't know their theology as well. And what are we turning out into the world? I I I've seen this now for a few years. I don't believe it's prophecy, I think it's just looking at signs. I think most of you would agree that the church of the future is not going to be a church that is led by Bible college educated men who are in preaching positions because they have this huge education behind them. I think over the next 20, 30 years, we're gonna see more churches going the route of raising up their own preachers and putting them in positions. But at the very same time, you can't raise kids and teens and young adults unless you've got people dedicated who know God's word, who know the truth, who are willing to just go to war with these young people, not against them, but with them, right? Go to war with them and help them understand, hey, if you stand on this truth, because for years and years, I think the church said all too often to these kids because I said so, or because the Bible says so. Yeah. And we didn't give them a good foundation. And the need that I see more and more, and we're we're meeting it here. We have we have um Tieryn and Kevin who are both doing a good job with it. Um I I work with some of the young adults, Austin Morgan works with some of the young adults. We're all Dan's um have you finished that curriculum, that uh teen curriculum? I know you're working on it. Yeah, I'm just about done with it. Yeah, yeah. And so Dan's working on a teen discipleship curriculum that we'll be able to take, or or a it's actually a solidification of um our core beliefs and things like that that we're teaching the teens. So we're pouring into this, but I think more churches need man, if you're a church that actually cares about the future and you're not investing in your teens and your kids, then you're not a church that cares about the future. You only care about what you want.

SPEAKER_04 38:05

That's right. You care about the immediate and your and your immediate needs that that you you do deem as important. That's exactly right. And and that's and that's what I'm saying. Like, you know, you okay, you got a you got a nice place. Yeah. Ten years from now, yeah. What's it look like? What's it gonna look like? That nice place that you're so invested in right now that you're so proud of, yeah, and you don't have a child in that building. No.

SPEAKER_01 38:29

I mean, honestly, it you if you've got a And there are a lot of churches that are a lot of churches that have uh a man or two who can get up, read scripture, and comment on it and just stay as close to the truth as they possibly can, get a good commentary. It may be boring, it may be boring as all get out, but it's the Bible and it's truth, and it doesn't have to be boring if we're living it. But but the kids and the teenagers, I'm telling you, man, we we are we are missing prime opportunity in most churches when we're when we are re and even if you're just playing games and stuff, if you're not teaching truth to kids and teens, then you are missing everything. That's right. That's right. And it breaks it that that probably that probably I lose more sleep over that than than anything, is uh our inability to see the need. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 39:18

One of my favorite phrases to to my youth group kids when I was in youth ministry, they'd be like, we need to play more games. I'm like, I didn't go to I didn't spend thousands of dollars to earn a degree so that I could play games with you.

SPEAKER_01 39:30

Sure, I can come up with 150 games off the top of my head. I I you and I could play games right now. And I mean it's not a games are not a problem. It's it's answering questions, it's getting involved, it's getting them talking, even if it's a weird talk, right, and you're able and you know what you're doing enough to go, well man, you just said this. You know, I don't remind the Bible says this. Well, you does that correlate? You know, how do we correlate that? Or you got a kid who's posting stuff online that's junk, yep, and you confront them, you know, with the truth, you know, that we that as Christians, we do not let unwholesome, unwholesome talk, you know, and and whatever. But I mean that it's it's just heartbreaking to me to think that churches believe wholeheartedly that the senior minister position, the preaching minister, is the most important. But we have 40 kids out of 80 people attending church, and we've got a couple of moms who are stressed to the nth degree, and they're working as hard as they can to love these kids and show them the truth, but they don't they don't have the time or the background to do it. Right. And there's these young people out there, these young youth ministers, young children's ministers just coming out of school who will dedicate their lives to the truth. And man, we've got to give them a chance. We've got absolutely we've got to do better by this. We we just have to because we're failing. That's one place where we're all failing.

SPEAKER_04 40:48

Because the reality is that um we are we are affecting generations to come with what we do now. Yep. And so, you know, we we have those good old days that we talk about. Well, you know, I don't believe the good old days started with them saying, Well, I'm just gonna establish a tradition and we're no Christ is the cornerstone. You mentioned it earlier, and the church is to be built on that cornerstone. So Christ is always the foundation, and so we build upon that. So the traditions that we're used to, I don't think our our parents and grandparents and great-grandparents ever intended for us to be that same thing in 2026.

SPEAKER_01 41:27

No, they did not, they did not want us to be the same.

SPEAKER_04 41:31

They they were giving us a foundation to be built upon. Yep.

SPEAKER_01 41:34

And you can't fault and and and forgive me here, I'm not trying to insult anybody. You can't fault ignorant people when they try to do the absolute best they can. That's right. And so I'm not getting on you, if you're in another church and you're listening to this and you're saying, well, you know, Scott, I never looked at it that way or bought. I'm not mad at you. No, I'm I'm not, I'm not what I guess I'm upset with is church leadership that doesn't identify the true needs of a church. Yeah. Because if you're in a church of 40 to 80 people and your average age is above 60 or 70, and you have you have any children living within five miles of your church, you should be investing in youth programs. That's right. You should be investing in kids' programs. You should be, you should have 20 to 30 percent of your budget going to do movie days in your yard or water days or whatever. And getting kids to come, because um we had we have a couple who's been coming now a couple of weeks, and they told me they said, our daughter loves it here. And I said, Man, that's awesome. And they s and I said, Is she learning anything? And they said, Well, yeah, they she said they had a lesson, but she loves the teachers and she loves the kids. Guys, look, if you're not, if if at first you're only teaching kids to love coming to church, that is a great thing to learn to love. Yeah, and uh, and I have no, and if that kid wakes up on Sunday morning and looks at the parents, and the parents are saying, Hey, we don't know if we're going, and that kid goes, I want to go to church, and they're dragging their parents to church, fine. Do make be such a church that you cannot you you cannot stop building into youth programs and building into kids because if you care at all whether your churches here in 20 to 30 years, it's not about hiring someone else's young man they sent to school to become because that's what I am, and I'm not getting on Broad Creek. No, I'm I'm that's what you are. We're not getting on Broad Creek because I grew up, we both grew up in different churches. We came to Broad Creek, but what we what I want Broad Creek to be, and I think Dan would agree, what we want Broad Creek to be is a church that makes its own leaders, that that builds such strong foundations that these young people grow up to lead the church in a beautiful cycle that just keeps producing disciples and and just just does incredible things. And you don't have to worry about other churches coming in and making an impact because you're you're doing it in house and you're saving the community and you're making a difference in kids and you're sending them out to the world to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_04 43:59

And we and we have A long way to go. We do. And that's fine. So we're not talking as none of my anger is pointed about grade. We're not talking as the experts. No, no, no. We're talking about this is our heart for the church. Like I love the church. And so when uh when people degrade the church or they talk bad about the church with no solution or no heart for a change, uh, man, I hate that. I do too. That our our job here is to encourage you, as broad creakers and anybody else who is listening to this, that we all gotta be different. We gotta change. We we've got to put our selfish thing. I have to be removed from the equation. Yeah. Me has to be removed from the equation. And and we have to become others focused. Yes. There's a lot of one-another's in scripture. A lot. And so we have to be ever mindful that, yes, we are growing in your own personal faith, and you should be. You should be discipled, you should be discipling others. Sure. But that doesn't mean that now everything is is on you, you, you. Right. We're a team, we're a family, and we do this together.

SPEAKER_02 45:04

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 45:05

And so we have to invest in the kids heavily. And I I believe very strongly. So if you're a smaller church out there and you're struggling, um, and in invest in children, yeah. I I hundred percent agree and believe that parents will endure boring sermons as long as they're biblical.

SPEAKER_03 45:26

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 45:26

They'll endure boring sermons if their children are excited in learning about Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 45:32

That's exactly right. And you we have to turn church on its head because, you know, I again, adults as we're growing, and if you're if you're a new Christian, you're a new Christian adult, and you say, you know what, I I just I fall asleep during sermons. I I get that. I it's I'm not, you know, people fall asleep on me and they always come and they'll say, I'm so sorry I fell asleep. And I'm like, look, if I can help you get a good, a good rest, that's fine. I'm not gonna argue with, I'm not gonna be upset with you. And they're like, but I'm just working such a long time. I was like, no, you don't, you don't understand. I'm not upset with you. Um, but if you if you have a church where the leadership goes, look, we over the next 20 years, we're gonna heavily invest in in kids and teens and young adults, and we need you to be supportive, we need you to show up, we need you to serve, and we need you to endure, you know, um uh these lessons and these talks and these things. Um, we we need you to go through this with us. We need you to walk with us. You can walk with each other through hard things as adults if it's a blessing to your to your children. And and you can go read Deuteronomy 6, because Deuteronomy 6 is really about that. It's about impressing upon your kids what is important. And we as church leaders, I'm so thankful for our leadership. I'm so thankful for our children and teen leaders and for the volunteers that we have because I I think they're doing better and better and better all the time. But um, I love it when I hear someone come and say, Well, my child got upset with me when it was time to go home. Yeah. And I'm thinking they'll be back. That's awesome. I mean, that's really awesome. They'll be back. And um, and uh, it's not again, it's not a numbers thing, it's that I know that next week they're gonna be in the place they need to be. That's right. And we have an opportunity to share truth. That's right. And that's what we try to do.

SPEAKER_04 47:19

So yeah, there's always room for improvement. We should never be satisfied.

SPEAKER_01 47:23

Oh, that's right. That's right. We should strive for it, guys.

SPEAKER_04 47:25

And and if and if you're in a healthy situation, like in a church family that's healthy, invest, you know, try to help another place. Try to try to invest in other people. Um, you know, because we're all in this together, we're not competing. Um, you know, we compete against the Mormons and the Jehovah's Witnesses. And I know I say that all the time, but I'm but that's that's true. I mean, if they're a cult, we'll compete with you. Yeah. Um, but but real. Yeah. But but we we are we are trying to draw people to Jesus. Yeah. And and the the best way of doing this is to serve one another, um, to make sure we all are eating in the good pasture. That's right. We're all drinking the good water. That's right. Um, and in order to do that, we've got to lay aside our own um desires and and things, the traditions um that ultimately, in the end, don't really have any bearing on the salvation and the discipleship of another person. That's right. And we've got to say, okay, what do I need to lay aside so that I can reach just one?

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Yep. I agree. You know, this week I did say in the sermon, and we we're getting ready to wrap up here, and um I um I said I had a statement in the sermon, I said, I believe every truth preaching church, every church that stands on the truth of God, should have a steady stream of people leaving it. Yes. Because that is proof that they're not adhering to what the world wants them to do, right? But they're preaching the truth. And when someone says, and and it's happened since I've been here, well, I'm leaving because you don't believe in this, or I'm leaving because you don't believe in this, and they were all contradictory to God's word. Right. You know, whether it was abortion or homosexual marriage or you know, whatever it was. And I love, look, I love people who've had abortions, I love people who are going to have abortions, I love homosexuals, I love gay people, and and I love them all, but I don't agree with with what's happening in their life, I don't agree with their lifestyles and their and their decisions, right? But when they've left, I've not been upset over that because I know that we stood next to the truth. And and we did it as best we could, and it wasn't about me, it wasn't about anything, it was just about truth. If people leave your church because you're preaching the truth, then congratulations. It's like Winston Churchill said. He said, he said, somebody beyond not everybody likes you. He said, Well done. He said, That means you stood up for something. Right. And Jesus himself said, Be be wary when all men speak well of you. Right. And and we need the truth taught. So uh we need to be the lean. Look, I let the leadership be the lean sheep. Let's feed the flock and let's make sure they're standing in the right place. That's excellent, that's right, excellent metaphor. Dan, I appreciate you, buddy. Yeah, got one dad joke real quick. Oh, yeah, yeah. Go ahead, Dan Jr.

SPEAKER_04 50:07

I told my wife she was drawing her eyebrows too high. She looked surprised.

SPEAKER_01 50:12

I wanted to say that so bad.

SPEAKER_04 50:14

She looked I almost said it.

SPEAKER_01 50:15

I was like, she looked surprised. Yes, she did indeed. Oh, good stuff. All right. Oh, guys, I hope you all have a wonderful week. We will see you next time. Love you guys.

SPEAKER_04 50:27

Love you.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

Take care. Bye-bye.