Dealing with Difficult People

Do you have difficult people in your life? We all do and sometimes they're staring at us in the mirror.

Join us for a frank discussion on how to deal with difficult people and why we have a responsibility to do so! We use a good deal of scripture in this one, so take some notes and then take some time to study on your own afterwards.

And a note on something we didn't discuss: If you are in an abusive situation or are being hurt, there is help. Just because we are to love our enemies doesn't mean we have to continually be hurt by them. Seek help if you need it.

Love you, have a great week!

Scott and Dan

Produced, edited and hosted by Scott Askew and Dan Daugherty

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:16

Hey everybody, it's the Creek cast with Dan and Scott. It's a pleasure to have you here. We are in the middle of VBS week and still kicking. Dan, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00 0:26

I'm drinking coffee at 4 30. Yeah, me too.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

I got a cup in front of me. Aaron even is sitting in here and he has a cup of coffee, which he rarely drinks coffee. So it's been that kind of week. And it, but it's been an awesome week. It's just a week that's it's so different a week. It is. I mean, I'm I'm so used to teaching classes and creating on a schedule. And um, and then this week comes and you're like, you know, drinking coffee. And at well, I drank a cup of coffee last night, 9 45, which was really weird.

SPEAKER_00 0:56

I mean, I I can drink up until I go to bed and still go to go to bed just fine.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Last night idea, but most nights I really expect is.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yesterday, I when I woke up yesterday morning, I literally drank a pot of coffee, a whole pot of coffee to myself before probably nine. And I was like, okay, we're gonna but man, I tell you, it's gonna be one of those days. I I've never been I've never been really affected, at least that I can tell by caffeine.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Um, but man, I I had good energy yesterday, of course, but until about 4 30, about 4 30, like it my body's just like you're an idiot. I'm shutting down. Yeah. And I was like, oh my gosh. We're just not used to it.

SPEAKER_01 1:36

It's like Aaron and I are really thinking about doing the um um the oh what's it called? The Camino next year, what that Rob Anderson went on. And uh Aaron and I are thinking about going and doing uh just like 10 days, 12 days, something like that. And um, we gotta start walking because one the the schedule, I was looking at it today. The schedule, one of the days is is 14 miles. Right. And and you think in your head, well, 14 miles, man. I haven't walked 14 miles in the last few months. And so uh we got to get started and and get to work, and if that's if that's gonna be.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Oh man, my my calves that when we went to Universal a couple weeks ago, um the first day we did 10 miles in the first day. And my the next day we took a break and um we were we were out by the pool and I was like stretched my leg. I'm like, oh my calves are like yelling at me.

SPEAKER_01 2:29

They're going, Come on, boss, what you doing? Yeah, when we went and I had to push Aaron around in the wheelchair, I did 36 miles that week. Yeah, and um, and there's I think there was so much adrenaline pumping. Right, I didn't feel it till I don't notice until you get home, yeah. And I got home and I was sore for a few days. And but I think with the Camino being as how everything's so slow, and we're gonna take a slower route. We're gonna take we've I I'm looking at the um it's called what is it called? Um it's the one by the sea, and uh it goes up the west coast and then uh comes back over and and um Santiago is uh is uh right there. And so um yeah, I'm I I I'm I I'm afraid that if I don't, uh we will definitely need extra days and that incurs cost.

SPEAKER_00 3:12

And so I mean I used to I used to hike all the time. But well when we moved out of Idaho from the mountains, yeah. I haven't been hiking like I used to. I mean, I I do an elk hunt in four or five days and walk 70 miles through through the mountains, you know. It's crazy and elevation change, all that stuff. The first day I wanted to die, but you know, after after you push through that first day, you're going, all right, I can do it. All right, we're good.

SPEAKER_01 3:34

That's a young man's game. And uh as most things are. Uh so and as we get older, we drink coffee. So it makes us feel better.

SPEAKER_00 3:42

Can't jump out of the back of my pickup anymore.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

One of those videos where you're past 30 and the guy gets off a tractor and he walks away and it's his ghost form, and the guy is dead at the foot of the tractor. He's like, oh. So uh yeah, that's about how it is.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

So I always think it's funny because we're like when you're past 30, I'm like, what are you talking about? 30, my 30s were my favorite time.

SPEAKER_01 4:03

Yeah, 30. I've I was man, I was I was I was good in my 40s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:07

Now that I'm in my and I still look. I hate the 40s, man. This 40s suck.

SPEAKER_01 4:11

I I tell you, my I think, I think I really, and I could say this and get sick next week, but genetics-wise, I don't, I'm not sore. I'm 52. I don't work out, and yet my knees aren't always sore, my back's not always sore. I usually feel pretty good. And um, and and I can't, I I can't complain. I really can't. So once I get into better shape, I think I'll feel hopefully I'll feel even better.

SPEAKER_00 4:33

Yeah, that's what my my chiropractor and my wife keep telling me. You know, your back wouldn't hurt so bad if you lose your spare tire. I'm like, thanks. That's really encouraging.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Well, what happens if I get a flat?

SPEAKER_00 4:43

All right, anyway. Um this has nothing to do with what we're talking about.

SPEAKER_01 4:49

Oh, we are talking about a completely different subject today. We are going to discuss how to deal with difficult people. And um, and and and let's be honest, we're all a little difficult from time to time. And uh because none of us measure up to each other's expectations all the time. Uh, we all have different viewpoints on things. That's right. And so um, I did a talk yesterday for um some 11 to 14 year olds and um about about how to deal with difficult people. And we just thought it'd be a good idea to bring it into the podcast today just to just to kind of talk about patience and to talk about how we handle the people we consider difficult. And and I guess we have to first define difficult um and um and understand who difficult people are. So um, you know, some people are just difficult because they're they're mean. I mean, some people are just plain jerks. They are some people are just jerks, and and that's the way they are. And if you tell them they're a jerk, they don't see it. Um they it's not um we went to get our van today from a um uh uh place here in Newber and they were working on the bumper after Stephanie hit a small deer. And anyway, they were finished with it, but uh well, they were about finished with it, and we went in there and and Stephanie's we left, and Stephanie said, Well, they're not gonna win any smile awards, and I said no. And they're just and I understand they deal with they deal with difficult people every day. Yeah, and when you deal with difficult people every day, if you're in retail or in a place like that, you're probably going to be a little jaded, yeah, be affected by it.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

And we're dealing with the same thing with our trucks, so yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Our audio fried and it wasn't our I mean, yeah. Anyway, that's a long story, but uh they're they're making they're making good on on a few things and lowering the costs and stuff, but yeah, the the guy the guy was not yeah, he wouldn't win a smile award either.

SPEAKER_01 6:38

Yeah, I and and he should be over, I mean, especially in your situation, they should be like, man, we're really sorry that this happened, you know. We're really and I and I don't know. I I think you know, I think sometimes we we just I it's in traffic, I always joke about traffic. And I don't really I yeah, there's times I get upset in traffic, but it's not nearly as bad as I make it out to be. But every now and then I really try to just change my perspective. Hey, if somebody cuts you off and Aaron's Aaron's better at it than I am, and um Stephanie's even better at it than I am, and um, but they'll say, hey, maybe they're in a hurry, or maybe they got a loved one in the hospital, or maybe and that's positive intent, and positive intent is good, but I don't always have you guys are a lot better than me. Yeah, yeah. And uh I don't well, I don't always possess it, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 7:24

Yeah, I'm not yeah, I'm not uh no no and uh I'm not nice when it comes to people cutting me off.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

No, and sometimes, like we say, people are jerks, sometimes people are having bad days, sometimes people hold grudges due to misunderstandings, sometimes people have been hurt, uh, especially like in our situation with church hurt and all of the social media uh culture that's out there. Um, did you read the email from Rob? Yeah, yeah. So 30, only 30% of Americans now trust Trust clergy. Trust clergy. And so trust leaders and churches and ministers and stuff. Only 30% of Americans say that they would trust.

SPEAKER_00 8:04

And that was a lot higher 20 years ago. It was a lot higher. It was like 60s and 70 percent range.

SPEAKER_01 8:10

Man, it's crazy how it's changed. Yeah, but at the same time, if you look at the way the way that that the clergy have been portrayed and the mistakes that have been made by clergy, and and it's been painted with a broad brush over many. There are still many faithful preachers, many faithful church leaders.

SPEAKER_00 8:31

And unfortunately, though, in our day and age, if you screw up, that's what everybody's gonna see. Um and so all these, you know, child predators that are preachers or or whatever, or um, you know, these these pastors and tax evasions and you know, uh money lawn. I mean, all these things that are that you see in the news, that isn't majority of the preachers.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

No, no, I I would say that's maybe what one out of I don't know, one out of something. I mean, it's you know, and and I don't have details and we don't have statistics for all this, but just because you see a preacher today who evaded his taxes, it doesn't mean that the other hundred who paid their taxes are bad guys. Right. And uh, or just because you see uh um someone who was a who was guilty of um molesting children doesn't mean that the other thousand or ten thousand you know are guilty of that as well. And and again, we we tend to stereotype all kinds of things. That's right. Um and and that's something that we have to be careful of. And and so we we have to be mindful of that. And sometimes people are difficult because of that.

SPEAKER_00 9:33

Um I mean it it's just it's the whole mindset too. Um you you remember after 9-11. Oh, yeah. Um, I remember the first time I flew after 9-11, I was I was on edge every time I saw a Middle Eastern person, you know, type of thing. And like I and you know in the back of your mind, not not they're not all that way. No. And so um, but we do it, we it's just kind of second nature, I think, with people that we stereotype people automatically. Yeah. Uh without and it's it's based off of our experiences. Absolutely. And so, yeah, I I think a lot of times, especially with the with the pastor situation, I mean, we're we're looking at um, you know, this this culture of uh uh of church that that's been created, I I'd say probably really heavily within the last 50 years of this the prosperity gospel, yep, and you know, and the swindling that happens with with quote unquote pastors that, you know, um, you know, I I've been intentionally sharing some of those from the Holy Nope on my on my Facebook page, because like, you know, people claiming to be experts, I and you gotta understand, like, and you know this, a lot of a lot of preachers, quote unquote preachers, who and they if they call themselves apostles, yeah, yeah. Okay, that's that's red flag number one. It is. Uh but uh but I digress with that. But these these preachers who talk about like um this is what we're um you know, this is what this word means, and they like you can you can get a doctorate degree online uh from an unaccredited rinky dink, like basement run like seminary, quote unquote. Yeah. Um and a lot of these preachers do. They go out and they and they use that as their their I'm an expert in this, or I'm you know, and it's like it's for guys like us and and who who work hard at study and do those things, and you know, I'm getting an actual PhD from an accredited university, you know, that type of stuff, it makes us look like we're in that same category. But it's it's it's not it's not, it's not at all.

SPEAKER_01 11:32

And and and the difficulties with that is that you're always gonna have swindlers and everywhere. You're always gonna have cheats, and and and how we deal with those people. I I and I'm sure Dan can talk for himself in ministry, flip it. We deal with difficult people quite often. Yeah, and and it's not uh here at Broad Creek, it's a little different. We don't we don't even I don't know, it seems like here everybody's willing to give everybody a chance.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

And that's a really by and large, I've noticed that.

SPEAKER_01 12:00

Yeah, I mean we're willing to look past some things if we can and stuff, and and um and that's a really good thing. And and difficult people, um, and difficult people sometimes aren't difficult in that they are mean or upsetting or anything. Sometimes um it can just be hard to communicate with someone maybe who has uh uh a special need, you know, or or something like that. And we don't call them difficult people, but it is difficult for us. It is. We it it's hard to relate to that person, it's hard to do. And and all of these things being said, it it it shouldn't we should never have permission to just walk away without trying. Right. And um, and difficult people are going to always be a part of our lives because as long as I look in the mirror, I see a difficult person, and and I'm and I'm constantly trying to put myself in a position where I can help people um to communicate better or to be at peace or or to have comfort, and and it's just hard. So today we just want to share a few scriptures with you and just talk about maybe a process of dealing with someone um who is a difficult person. And um we got a few things. Yesterday when I went to the camp, I talked about Zicaus. And and if you want to see and read the story of Zicaus for yourself, it's in Luke chapter 19, verses 1 through 10. And um Zychaeus, of course, and and we we won't read all of it here, I'll just pick out a couple of poor uh passages, but um Zychaeus, of course, was a chief tax collector, he was a bad guy, I mean evil guys in that day. Rome was evil, but Zychaeus was right there with him because he would normally just extort people. He would, if you owed teneri for your taxes for the year, he might charge you fourteen, and you couldn't do anything about it. He and you knew the knew the ten was right, but he was gonna take the four and pocket it. And um, so he was hated. And so when Jesus came along, there's a there's a passage there, it's it's in verse, what is it, verse two, no, verse three. And it says, and he was seeking to see who Jesus was. And I think a lot of times we we cut people short. I know I have. Let me speak for myself. I have cut people short when they were difficult because I was selfish about it and I didn't think about being the conduit that might bring them into a relationship with Christ. I was just thinking, I don't want to deal with this. I'm tired or I'm upset or I'm, you know, whatever, blah, blah, blah. And I'm not going to be there to let them walk over. Right. And um, and there's a depth to this that we may not get into today, but dealing with difficult people, I had a mentor one time tell me he said it's okay to lose battles to win wars. Yep. And and I'm a big believer in that. I'll let people win things that without re without nudge or regret. I mean, I I won't I won't be upset about it. I and but in the end, I know that that's a move towards maybe a a b uh a war won. Right. And uh something that they can come better into contact with Jesus with. And so verse verse three there says he was seeking to see who Jesus was. Now, who, as a difficult person, Zacchaeus was a difficult person, who was it that was going to help him see who Jesus was? And there's no one in the story. Yeah, um, Jesus, um, as soon as he finds out he wants to see him, Jesus himself reaches out, but when he tries to push through the people, he probably caught elbows, you know, and and pushing. And then, of course, the famous part of the story where he runs down, uh, and the and the verse four actually says he ran. Um, men in that day did not run. Uh, it was a it was culturally, it looked bad on the individual. And um, and then he climbed up a sycamore tree in a cloak and a tunic. And um, so he probably had to hike that sucker up. And and we're assuming I'm assuming a couple things here, but you're not going to maintain a lot of dignity by running and climbing up a sycamore tree.

SPEAKER_00 15:53

Well, and especially if you're a short statured person anyway.

SPEAKER_01 15:56

Yes, yes. And the guy I had at camp yesterday play Zychaus. Yeah, he's from our church, and I'm not gonna name him, but he's a little guy, and it was awesome because he he's like standing there, you know, and stuff. And we did a little reenactment, it was a bad reenactment, but he was so short, it was funny. And so uh he's great, he did a great job, and uh he's a great, great kid. Um, but yeah, yeah. I mean, so Zicaus climbs up the tree and Jesus sees him, and immediately Jesus, you know, says, Hey, come on down. The the question that I asked in here is um, you know, I uh I said, I mean, think about it. The person you hate, you despise, you cannot forgive right now, do you want them in heaven forever with you? And and I heard some of the kids when I asked that question, they went, Oh, you know, because when we think about it, our goal is to make Jesus' name great, is to get people to heaven, is to disciple them into relationships. And then if we honestly say that there are people who we would consider our enemies, right, do you want to spend eternity with them in heaven? Right. And that's a difficult question, I think, to answer. It really is, because it makes us go. I mean, you know, you there's some people that I would I hope they live on the other side of heaven. I mean, you know, and I'm sure they would probably say the same about me. No, God will put you as neighbors. Yeah, yeah. We'll be neighbor, we'll be in a duplex together.

SPEAKER_00 17:15

It's what makes racism so stupid. Yes. Um and it's it's this idea that like you are you honestly think you're you're gonna be the only only only white people are gonna be now. I mean, it's like how how dumb can you be? And and I'm just saying it. I it it if you're racist, you are dumb.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah, and I'm just gonna say and and racism hates Jewish people, but I've heard racist and especially like the Ku Klux Klan and others say that they hate Jews, but they love Jesus. Right. And you're like, God is that's that's not how it works.

SPEAKER_00 17:47

It's just not at all how it works. And you know, and and I just I can't I can't understand the the concept of of the this, you know, because that's a great question to ask kids, like especially when you're dealing with, you know, teens, you know, young teens dealing with hurt and you know friendships and all that stuff, like the enemies that we have, um, and I'm a firm believer too that when Jesus says pray for your enemy, he's doing that because he knows that if you actually pray like you're supposed to for your enemy, yeah, you will eventually stop seeing them as your enemy. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_01 18:25

Yeah. We think it's praying for them to change. No, and really it's not. Yeah. It's praying for them to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

You will stop seeing people as your enemy if you're truly praying for them.

SPEAKER_01 18:35

Because somebody has to stop the cycle.

SPEAKER_00 18:36

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:37

There has to be, I mean, it's a cycle that keeps rolling over and over, and someone has to stop it. And and I I think you're a hundred percent right in that. That when we pray, we we believe we're changing the other person, but God is really working on our heart.

SPEAKER_00 18:50

Right. Because we know, I mean, Ephesians tells us very clearly in Ephesians six that the battle is not against flesh and blood, but against the powers and principalities in the in the in the unseen realm. So if you if you if you look at people as your as your enemy, then what you become is you become a person what we what we we liken to spiritual cannibalism. So we we attack each other so much. Now, this there's a difference because you'll hear us call out like her heretical teaching. We're not attacking people, we're attacking a a teaching. That's right. Um, and and that's and that's that's to be, you know, that that is biblical. That's right. We are to call out false teachings and false teachers. Um, and so as we do that, we're not we're not trying to say this person is a rotten person necessarily. It's just whatever they're spewing is isn't biblical. That's what's rotten. That's right. Um, and so Galatians talks about uh in Galatians chapter five, uh, verse 15, it says, uh, but if you bite and devour one another, watch out that you are not consumed by one another. Wow. Um, I mean, that's that right before that it says you shall love your neighbor as yourself. And so that rags, man. You didn't bite and devour each other. I mean, it's spiritual cannibalism, and and we do this all the time um with our quote unquote enemies. Yeah. And uh in sometimes our enemies are are people who are brothers and sisters in Christ. Yeah. And, you know, even if I don't agree with a certain doctrine, um, you know my feelings about Bethel Church. Um, I think it's a cult. Um, but those people are not my enemies. Yeah. That's right. They're they're people who are in deep, deep error. Yeah. Um, and then I'm and I pray constantly that they would open their eyes to the truth and that the Holy Spirit would actually grab a hold of their hearts, that they would see the biblical truth and repent of the stuff that they've been spewing out of their mouths for years now. That's right. Um, you know, that's my heart for that. I want I want them to change.

SPEAKER_01 20:50

It always has to be reconciliation, right? Right. We don't bout that. Yeah, we don't we don't kick people out of church hoping that they go away. We we ex the Bible has excommunication as a possibility, yeah. Which I've I've obviously got that for later, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

Oh, good, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:05

But because it's meant to bring them back. That's right. You know, I recently had um a person who I had disagreed with um uh over over uh doctrine, and um, and the last talk we had ended not perfectly. And um anyway, he messaged me last week and told me that they were expecting a baby, and it was a beautiful message. And and I I responded, you know, because I had actually been thinking of him, right? And um, and kind of hoping because somebody had told me, because he's in ministry and somebody told me his ministry was going really well, so I've been praying for him, and then he just reaches out. And I'm always amazed at how the Lord does that. That's awesome. So I'm we're hoping to have lunch maybe either next week or the next, and very cool, and we can sit down and hang out. But um, I would love to talk to him again. And uh but his he reached out to me and that that's great. That was that was incredible, it really was. And I was very humbled by that.

SPEAKER_00 21:55

And so I'm very thankful that's kind kindness goes a long way, even even if even Even if you've had a disagreement uh you know before and you remain kind. Yeah. And you re I mean it I I don't know who who it was that said that. Um it was in one of the I think it was an old church father that said, uh be kind to everyone because you know not what battles they're fighting, or you know, something like that. Yeah. You know, it uh this whole car truck thing that I'm dealing with, with uh, you know, we've only owned our pickup like four months, yeah. And uh and something's going on, you know, and and the guy was afraid to break this news to me, and he's like, I thought you were gonna yell at me. And I said, That's not how I represent my faith.

SPEAKER_01 22:34

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 22:34

I said, It costs nothing to be kind to you, and he goes, Well, I appreciate that, you know, type of thing. And so as much as you might want to get upset, and yeah, you know, um, but what I was trying to say is your kindness towards this other person, uh, I think is it it leaves a door open of like reconciliation in the in the in the future.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah, because when somebody offers an olive branch, right, you have to take it. You can't, you can't let I mean, and there there wasn't I don't believe there was a grudge there. I know we didn't leave it well, but at the same time, when he offered that olive branch, man, I grasped hold up. Absolutely like it was a lifelong absolute. I'm so thankful for that. And I hope that you know we get to sit down and talk and I get to celebrate his ministry and what God's doing in his life.

SPEAKER_00 23:17

I'll be I'll be praying for that conversation because that that's that's something that you want. You you don't want to see the church fractured, no, especially if you can if you can agree on the essentials of the faith. That's right. Um now again, we're we're not talking about those who are outside of the essentials and that are um you know trying to pervert the gospel and stuff. I think you've got to be very firm. Yes, we can't build bridges and false doctrines, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:42

With absolutely someone that we would consider breaking the essentials of Christianity.

SPEAKER_00 23:46

Um attacking saying Jesus is not God or you can't do that with Mormons, you can't do that with Jehovah's Witnesses as much as you want to And we can love them and hope they come to the truth. But you can't accept the doctrine of the thing.

SPEAKER_01 23:59

You cannot accept the doctrine. No, we can't we can't justify the the falsehood of the doctrine. We stand firm on the truth. That's right. We have to.

SPEAKER_00 24:06

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 24:06

I um the passage that I used um to end that thought about, you know, would you want your worst enemy in heaven? Um, Matthew 5, 44 through 45 from the Sermon on the Mountain, Jesus says, But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven, for he makes the sunrise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. And and then I I had this this turn that I wanted to give them, and I I said, you know, have you ever thought about it that God in heaven, um, you know, for eternity and man turns his back on him, spits on him, kicks him, you know, sins against him, breaks every part of the relationship that we possibly can. And y and yet God who has really well, God has enemies, but it's he didn't have to do what he did for us as enemies. He chose to have his enemies with him, those who would want to. And um and it just it blows my mind that that when God says, you know, love your enemies, um, it he's already done it. Yeah. You know, that's something he's already done. He's not telling us to do something he hasn't done. Right. And uh and that's I don't know, it always kind of just it kind of blows my mind that he he does stuff like that. Right. I know that he loves his enemies.

SPEAKER_02 25:19

Right.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Um you know, when I went to India ten years ago and we sat down on a on a Saturday morning in Ajay's office, and um we had a man and a woman come in, I think I know I've told you the story, and and a man and a woman come in, and anyway, they were ministering in a small village, and they were both uh converted to Christianity from Hinduism, and they started preaching the gospel in their small village, and one night some five men showed up in their home and four uh they had rebar um um and uh they beat the man as close to death about as you can get, laid him on the floor and turned his head in the direction of his wife, and then they did horrific, horrific things to his wife. Yeah, um, just molested her in every way, um, just the worst things imaginable. And they left them to die uh there on the floor. Well, they were found by friends who had been converted to Christ, and they were um rescued out, they were smuggled out of the village and to CICM to one of their healing villages um where I was able to preach um uh a sermon. And um they healed up over time, and when they were asked where they wanted to go, they wanted to go back to that village. And they were allowed to, they went back to the village and they preached the gospel. And four of those five men at that time had had embraced the gospel of Christ, left Hinduism, and were now Christians, and they said that they worshiped in the same church together, sitting beside the people who had done such horrible things to them. And and then Ajay looks at me and he says, Scott, can you pray over them? And I'm going, Are you kidding me? I uh, you know, and I cried the entire time I was praying over them because never have I felt so unworthy. Um, I felt like John the Baptist, you know, kneeling before Christ and asking him to baptize. I I I needed to be prayed for. Right. Um, but you know, when you when you're in the presence of someone who has epitomized love your enemies, yeah. Um, it it really is humbling that they are because you we think, oh, loving your enemies is a weak thing. No, I I think it's probably there's so much power. Oh my gosh, I think it's the strongest and most impressive thing that a person can do. Yeah, I really do.

SPEAKER_00 27:36

Yeah, the we had a a couple in Idaho who um he was a firefighter and he was out riding his bike. He was uh one of the uh not mountain bike, but you know, your road bike. Yeah, yeah. And that was big, big group in Idaho that was doing that. And he was out in the country and uh woman was taking her kids to school and it was early in the morning, and she dropped her kids off school and she was on the way back, and she lived, uh they had moved recently, and so she was finishing the kids were finishing out school where they were, and it was probably a 30-minute drive. And she was on her way back and uh fell asleep or something like that anyway. Um, and she hit him and killed him. And uh it was such a devastating thing because uh his one of his partners in the in the uh um fire departments, one of my great great friends that was a member of our church, and he was crushed, everybody was crushed. But so this lady gets arrested uh because I think she stayed up all night or something like that. And like it was very negligent of of her uh in what what was going on. But during the trial, and and they they had this televised, and we're of course we were watching it because it's all local. We we know we know the family. Um the the the wife stands up and says, Um, Judge, can I can I address her? And right then and there, she just she ran to her and gave her a hug and said, I love you, I forgive you.

unknown 28:55

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 28:56

And man, what a there was not a dry eye as we're watching this. And I mean, I just get goosebumps when I when I think about it, because that that is the choice of is that woman my enemy? Yeah, or am I to forgive in such a way that offers her freedom from that guilt? Right. Because she's gonna have that guilt regardless. But to know that you're forgiven by the person who should hate you the most. There's so much power when it comes to forgiveness and loving your enemies. That's right. Um, because there is such a such a light there. Yeah. Um, you know, with think of, I think we mentioned it a couple weeks ago in our podcast. Uh the movie, it's called Through the Gates of Splendor. It's a documentary um about Elizabeth Elliott and her her family. Um, it's about her her Jim Elliott, her husband, and uh was it Saint? Um what's his name? Nate Saint is his son.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Um crud, I can see the missionary book with his name.

SPEAKER_00 29:54

Yeah, anyway, it was five missionaries that went to Ecuador. They found a or the Amazon area, they found a a lost tribe and they made contact with them and they were killed uh when they landed. Uh long story short, uh as we if you listen to this podcast a couple weeks ago, we were talking about how the the the wife uh Elizabeth Elliott um moved in her family and her sister and everything like into the village to share the gospel instead of hating these tribe people, share the gospel, and the one who ended up um uh killing one of the missionaries himself, uh he became a Christian and the adopted grandfather of Nate Saint. And uh um, like in that whole village changed. It's crazy. You know, and you think about that, like what would you do? What would you do if somebody attacked your family? We already had this conversation there. There's in the news, there's a pastor in Louisiana that just got in a fight and beat the crap out of somebody because of a threat or something like that against his wife and daughter. Um, you know, and and I just be honest with you, I'm not above throwing hands, but you know, um, but what would be the better you know, and so you you think about that, like what what what actually what actually makes more more of an effect? And is there a ch is there an opportunity ever for for a physical retaliation? I think so.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

I think we I think we need to be self-defense about drugs. I think we need to be smart.

SPEAKER_00 31:19

We shouldn't be we shouldn't be the ones that pick that. Uh but you know, I think I think God's given us the ability to to defend ourselves and and and we should. Yeah. Um, but there's there's there's a there's a point where you have to understand that the forgiveness and mercy that you can show as a Christian to somebody else is supposed to be a direct reflection of what you've been shown by God. That's right. Because we too were once enemies of God. That's right. And so the whole point is to live a vertical relationship with Jesus so that we can live a horizontal relationship with each other.

SPEAKER_01 31:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:57

And that that grace is supposed to flow right through us to other people. And that's that's why we have patches like passages like Matthew 18, when we talked about the grounds for like excommunication and stuff. You know, the scriptures very clearly address us as people who are supposed to help bring reconciliation first. Right. So Matthew 18, starting in verse 15, uh, you're supposed to, and and it says if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone, right? But yet we'll go talk to everybody else about that, brother or sister.

SPEAKER_01 32:28

Spiritual cannibalism.

SPEAKER_00 32:29

Yeah, and cannibalize them. We're supposed to go to that person with with in peace to try to address the situation. Right. And I've had it happen with me where I've said something or you know, I rubbed somebody the wrong way, so they came to me and and talked to me about it. And that's as far as it had to go because we reconciled. Yeah. That's the point.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

And that's the point of it. Right. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 32:51

But you know, if you go to somebody and they and they if they listen, then you've gained a brother, it says. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every charge may be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, uh uh listen to them, tell it to the church. And if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him to be uh cast out as a Gentile and a tax collector.

SPEAKER_02 33:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:18

Okay. So there's there's a there's a there's a process that scripture gives us as to how to deal with difficult people. That's right. You're not to back uh talk behind their back, you know, spiritual cannibalism, you're not to uh gossip about them.

SPEAKER_01 33:33

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:34

Um gossip will destroy an entire church, it will destroy an entire family, it will destroy it all. Um, you know, you aren't you aren't to take matters into your own hands and and bring a physical retribution or anything like that. Um but you are to go and address the person for what they did, and you can be emotional about it. I mean, it if it if you've been hurt, you're hurt. Emotions are part of it, right? But you gotta learn to control your emotions. Right. In your anger, do not sin. Right. Is what scripture tells us tells us. So that's the proper way. And so, like, if I hear gossip, like I'll stop it.

SPEAKER_01 34:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 34:05

And I'll say, Have you talked to that person about that?

SPEAKER_01 34:07

Yeah. Well, I mean, I had a time at my last church where um a guy came in and he told me that one of the elders of the church had um bullied him while he was in school, and um, he had never really forgiven him. And so I I went to the elder and I said, Would you meet with us? And uh he said, Yeah, yeah. And so he came in and uh the guy kind of confronted him about it, and the elder said, I am truly sorry for what I did. I was a whole different person.

SPEAKER_02 34:34

Right.

SPEAKER_01 34:34

I hope you can forgive me and I hope we can be brothers, right? And it was beautiful and it was great. And the guy said, Yeah, absolutely. He said, Thank you for understanding. And um, so about six months, and this guy who had made the accusation wasn't all he he wasn't um he was a he he was a good guy, but he was very different, and and he just had a lot of peculiar ways about him. And uh anyway, he came back six months to a year later, and he said, Um, so so and so was picking on me, making fun of me. And I said, Who? And he named that elder again. And I said, When did this happen? And he said, Well, it happened. And I said, Well, hold on, he's right outside the door. So I went right outside the door and grabbed him and brought him back in. And I said, Um, he's got something to say to you. And so he said it and he said, We've already discussed this. He said, Why do you know why are you bringing it up? But it it fixed it right there because it wasn't just something he was gonna be able to gossip about and talk about. Right. I brought in the elder and it and it and it fixed it. The the whole idea about peacemaking is that we we ultimately in churches, your leadership has to have the same goal. In peacemaking, you have to have the same goal. And it's not about being right, it's about restoring a relationship so that both of you can be and come before Christ in honesty and truth.

SPEAKER_00 35:49

And you don't have to be best friends after that.

SPEAKER_01 35:50

No, no, no, no, no. No, you don't even have to be near each other.

SPEAKER_00 35:53

But what does Paul say is as long as as much as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 35:59

And and and as far and as far as it depends on you is important there. Yes. Um, I know for Zicaeus, it was, you know, when Jesus saw him, he said, Hey, I'm going to your house today to eat. Went to his house. Zicaeus decided, hey, you know, this is awesome. I'm gonna pay back, I'm gonna get what he he gave away half his wealth, and then he decided everybody he defrauded he was gonna pay back four times what he defrauded them. So it's like what he took plus a bunch of interest. And um, and Jesus said, salvation has come to this house this day, not because of necessarily what um uh Zacchaeus had done, but Jesus says, because this man is a son of Adam, uh, of Abraham, and uh he says this man is a son of Abraham, and so he was attributing it to Zacchaeus' faith. That's right, and the actions that came out of his faith were great, that was seeable, that's right. But Jesus attributed it to his faith. And and I I sometimes, you know, I the kind and you you you established it perfectly with that. And the only thing I would say is when you're when you're trying to um, and we've talked about it here today, when you're trying to ascribe guilt to someone, we forget to separate them out. We talked about that earlier. Um, there's that concept of the empty boat where you're in a fog bank and yet you have radar on your boat, and this other boat's coming right at you, and you you're yelling through your radio for them to turn, they're in the wrong spot, and you're in the right spot, and you're yelling for them to turn, you don't get any answer. And then all of a sudden the fog clears and you can see the boat, and there's no one in the boat. Who are you mad at?

SPEAKER_00 37:31

Right.

SPEAKER_01 37:31

And you know, uh I'm sure you're probably oh, well, who started the boat? Well, what if the boat was a sailboat and it just broke free from its moorings? And oh, well, who kept the sails? Well, I'm you know, maybe the current was put. We we try to ascribe guilt so hard to someone responsible, but if you can take the actions of the person and see the person, then when you're when you're reconciling in Matthew 18, then that reconciliation is about a human being who needs Christ and it's not about the wrong that was done. If you if what if Christ took everything we've ever done wrong and lined them all up and said we're gonna deal with all of these things and you're gonna feel guilty all over again about all these things, and that's not that's not what he's done. He's he's taking us away from that.

SPEAKER_00 38:16

In your exact what what it does, I think, is it makes it makes the cross um uh uh effectively uh ineffective.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:26

When we're trying to find the guilt instead of allowing, I mean, thinking about how how you know, I loved how you just put that because if Christ were to line you up and say, Okay, we're I'm just gonna allow the guilt to overcome. No, that's that's the cross was was the opposite of that. It was to take the guilt and shame away. That's right. So that when we believe upon his name, we don't have to deal with that any longer. And all of that has to do with forgiveness uh of yourself, and understanding if you've been forgiven by God, then you can forgive yourself. That's right, and you can forgive others.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yeah, and and that's it's hard even for Christians who've been Christians a long time to process that idea because there's a lot of guilt that a lot of Christians carry and they don't understand the concept of that there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ. And that condemnation is is where God does not look at us and say, I want you to feel guilty about what you've done. Um people won't people will say, Oh, I don't want to become a Christian because I don't want all the guilt. Great. But you're living with you're living with guilt.

SPEAKER_00 39:32

Christ will take it away.

SPEAKER_01 39:34

And so anyway, um, no, I I appreciate it. Uh one last verse I'll read here. Um, and um um if I can find it real quick. Um Romans chapter five, uh eight and ten. But God shows his love for us and that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us in verse 10. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his son, much more now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life, amen. Not by ours. Amen. So let us hold on to one another. Look, guys, the I wrote it today on Facebook. The world, the corners of the world and the dark recesses are scary places. We have to go together. And when we write people off, and look, I'm and and I'm I'll be the first to tell you, there may come a time when you when you've done everything you could. You've you as far as you were concerned, you tried to make peace as best you could, and that you have to go your separate ways from someone, and that's understandable. Um I pray that if you reach that point that you will continue to pray for that person. Yeah, you don't have to hate them stuff. That's right, you don't have to hate them. And because I've been a victim of that, and and now that I as I'm getting older, I understand that I'm able to separate that out and I find more peace in that uh in Christ that He can give me that strength to see that person separately from their sin. And um, I hate sin. Oh my gosh, God hates sin. You know, Dan hates sin. We all hate sin, right? But but we love people. And um, so if you're gonna deal with difficult people, maybe the first thing to remember is that God dealt with you when you were a difficult person.

SPEAKER_00 41:04

And talk to people, yeah, address the person as if you can. Yeah, go to the person. I I've I've spent time in my life over the last 30 years literally reaching out to people that I know I've hurt. Yeah. And and asking for their forgiveness. Um, like, like seriously, like I I had a I had a an a girlfriend in high school that I that I hurt pretty bad that I reached out to her. And fortunately, she's she's not with us any longer. She died of uh uh cystic uh cystic fibrosis. Yeah, um, but anyway, like I reach out to her um as as a a man in my mid-30s and just said, I I need you to forgive me because I handled that relationship wrong.

SPEAKER_01 41:47

Yeah, that was a girl that we had in elementary and uh she was Catholic. We knew nothing about Catholicism. She couldn't eat certain things on Fridays, and she was always holding her cross in her hand while she prayed, and we just made fun of her. And I, if I ever bullied a person, it was her. Right. And years later, I went into the library in Bellhaven and she was sitting behind the counter. She was the new assistant librarian, and I was looking at books and I was so nervous because I didn't know if she'd recognize me or not. And then I turned a corner and she was like, Scott, ask you. And I was like, Yeah, hey, Tanya, you know, and I uh oh Tanya. And I was talking to her, I was like, Hey Tanya, and you know, we talked for a little bit, and then I went back and I was looking at books and I was going, I have to ask her forgiveness. I said, I can't leave this place without doing that. And so I went up to the counter and I said, Tanya, would you forgive me for all the times that I hurt you? I said, I am so sorry, and I've lived with guilt forever. I said, You did not deserve that. And she said, she said, You were always forgiven. And she said, I never held it against you. She said, I promise I never held it against you. And I said, I appreciate that. Thank you. And it was so humbling because this sweet, sweet person who had a better faith than me, even even though I don't agree necessarily with Catholicism, but her faith had brought her to a place of forgiveness long before I asked for it. And I was grateful for that. And so I would say, go and ask for forgiveness. Don't let anything uh hold you back from that. Right. And don't be a jerk. Yeah, and don't be a jerk. Yeah. If you're gonna be a difficult person, at least have good reason to do that. Right, right. But anyway, no, we digress. Uh, we have a dad joke uh for today. And so uh Dan's gonna read that for us, please. Why was the baby excuse me?

SPEAKER_00 43:20

Okay, why was the baby strawberry crying?

unknown 43:24

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 43:25

Because his mom and dad were in a jam.

SPEAKER_01 43:33

Oh me. That was that was a good one. That was oh, that was a good one. Man, I was thinking of one that I saw earlier today, but uh personally.

SPEAKER_00 43:42

I can never remember them when I see them. There's one that I told him.

SPEAKER_01 43:45

Or they're inappropriate and they can't Yeah, and they come across the feed and I'm like, why in the world? Um no, I'm not gonna do it. Um, because it's terrible. It's horrible. And uh and it's it's a your mama joke, basically. And I'm not gonna do that. So anyway, but I know I told one to Aaron earlier that I was practicing for this, and I thought, oh, I have that in my head and I cannot remember it. I know, I know.

SPEAKER_00 44:09

I I'll get here, and I'm like, yeah, I gotta get the book. Yeah, that's that's just how it is.

SPEAKER_01 44:13

All right. Well, at least we're remembering the important things, not that's right. Dan, I appreciate you, brothers. Uh, y'all have a great week and a good day, and pray for us. We're gonna finish up VBS and um uh show some kids Christ. And um, that's that's what we're gonna try to do. All right, we love y'all. Have a great week.