Episode 8 with Daryl Back The Producer - Who calls the shots?

What does a Producer actually do?

Do producers really control casting and do they pick fame over talent? In this episode, Jessica talks to producer Daryl Back to get honest about power, bias, and what it really takes to get cast (including the question: would changing your nose make a difference?).

They dive into how the industry is evolving, why opportunities for older women still lag behind, and Daryl’s mission to open theatre up to underrepresented voices.

Daryl brings decades of experience to the conversation: from performing in the West End to becoming Artistic Director of One From The Heart. She has also  produced major pantomimes for Qdos for over 17 years, working with well-known names across UK theatre.

🎭  Listen now as we pull back the curtain on who really calls the shots!

For more news on The Big Question and to learn more about it's guests head to 

@thebigqpod

Follow Jessica Kingsley actress, content creator & influencer @mymagicalquests for her own personal quests and life in London.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:11

Hi, you're listening to the big question by Jessica Kingsley. That's me, and I'm going to be presenting my journey of self-discovery to find out if by altering my nose will I actually alter or change my life? But I'm also going to be looking at the broader picture. I want us to delve into society's obsession with beauty standards. Society's obsession on the street, on our TVs, on our screens, and the pressure we put on ourselves. In a world, especially a Western world, why do we boast about how diversified we are when it comes to looks? When actually we're no more further than we ever were, and there's even greater pressure than ever to conform to trends and perfect beauty standards. I believe that my big nose is holding me back from my big dream of becoming a TV and screen actress. I want to find out if talking to other people about their looks and about the industry will actually help me to decide whether or not I should have a nose job. So hello and welcome to the big question. I'm Jessica Kingsley and I have written and presented this podcast and co-produced with Sad Face Media. Today I have joining me on The Big Question, a producer. When I think of producers, I don't know what you think, I always think of the producers and you know, New York big guys with big bucks. But uh our producer joining us today is Daryl Back. And well, I'm gonna let her introduce herself. But the reason I wanted to talk to a producer is because in my mind they're usually the people I think pushing for what they might want to see on stage or screen. I could be completely wrong. Uh, it could be maybe the director has more power in choosing who they want to work with. But from my personal experience, I've often found that the directors seem really keen to work with me and then they blame it on the producer or the brand for going another way. But I don't know, maybe that's just they'll it's an easy way out, isn't it? Because the actors never really get to meet the producers. So, anyway, I can see she's already in the Zoom room. So I'm going to go over and see her. See you there. Good morning, Daryl. So lovely to meet you. Yeah, and you. Um, oh, we have Neil Wright to thank for this meeting.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

I love him to bits.

SPEAKER_00 3:06

I was about to say the same.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Uh don't tell him. I employed Neil, oh god, I know, 12 years ago, something like that, for the first time, if not longer. And I've obviously been a friend of his ever since. He's brilliant as well. He's absolutely brilliant.

SPEAKER_00 3:20

He's brilliant. He's he's been a long time friend of our families. Uh, we met him back in Polka Theatre days when we used to work there. Yeah, yeah. And he just he's neil, he's wonderful. Um talented and such a good friend. So yeah, he is.

SPEAKER_01 3:38

I agree with all that.

SPEAKER_00 3:41

So, Daryl, um, I know I haven't told you too much about the big question, and but I want to hear about you. So, our listeners, they they could be coming from all walks of life, they might not necessarily be coming from the acting industry. So, they might let's pretend they know nothing about producing, about TV, film, stage. So, tell us about you, what you do, and you can go as far back as you like. You can go to childhood.

SPEAKER_01 4:13

So, I started as an actress um a long time ago, and I was very lucky because I look or did look incredibly young. So I played young, you know, I did Helen Keller in the West End. My first job, I think, was at the National in the Crucible. Um, and I got known for doing it, and I also used to have a big voiceover um sort of life, and I played young boys under 15, 16, with un you know, that they wanted if they wanted them with an unbroken voice, I did it. Nice, so uh yeah, yeah, and I've played a boy on television as well, actually, which is very bizarre. Um, but yeah, so and then I carried on I carried on acting because it it I did loads, I did lots and lots, I did theatre and I did film and I did radio and all sorts of things. And then when I had my second daughter, and there's a five-year gap, so I worked all through the first one who's called Scarlet, and then when it was like my head is going to explode trying to work. I've got one just starting school, I've got a brand new baby, uh uh-uh. But I'd already produced a couple of shows that were funded with an actress. I spent a lot of my working career with an actress called Hildegard Neal, who's married to the actor Brian Blessed. Oh, I'm still a big friend of that family. Um, and I did I think 11 plays with Hildegard, including the Miracle Worker in the West End. Um, and so I produced two things for her and I, um, at sort of quite nice fringe venues in London and at the lyric Hammersmith. So I sort of dipped my toe into producing anyway, and then I was asked at my company, I set up a company, I was resident at the Horsham, it's not called the Horsham Arts Center, I think it's called the Capital Horsham now. Um, and they asked me to produce their Christmas show, which was The Wizard of Oz. This is a long time ago. So I can say this is so popular now. Exactly. So produced The Wizard of Oz, then was asked by various theatres to produce their Christmas show. Um, and then I fell into doing Christmas shows for quite a few theatres every single year, and that really took over all the time the girls were little, that really took over.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Um I think that's intense, that's an intense period.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

It is, it is at the time because I produced about 70 pantos, I think, in all. Wow. And I used to do four a year, so and of course they all clash. It's not like, oh well, that opens, then that one opens, and that one's they all open at the same time, and there's always issues. Um, and so I then did that. So now I've dropped some of them because it basically one of the companies was sold. Um, so I carry on producing in Chelmsford, where Neil's worked for me, uh, their Christmas show, and I'm now going back to sort of my roots, which was straight theatre, I don't sing or dance. Um, and I'm looking to work on a different play with actually Brian Blessed's daughter, Rosalind Blessed, together.

SPEAKER_00 7:10

Oh, wow. Well that's I love that. You've done it in a beautiful nutshell. Thank you. But wow, you've really had a journey and you must have seen huge changes in the industry.

SPEAKER_01 7:24

Massive changes, massive changes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:26

So before we talk about kind of the changes, I just want to get an idea more about your role as a producer because I did a little intro before I um started our meeting. But I think a lot of people think of the producer as the person who comes with the big bucks. And the executive, yeah, exactly. I'm not that. But but often from say the side of the actor, I've I feel like when you're you're in the room, you're not necessarily going to meet the producer. You'll meet the director, the casting director. And then when if you don't get the part, I feel they often say, Oh, sorry, the producer's gone a different way. Now, I don't know if that's just because they don't want to, they they're looking for a scapegoat and they don't want to say, actually, we preferred someone else.

SPEAKER_01 8:14

Not very good.

SPEAKER_00 8:16

Well, it would be good to have that feedback, but I'll tell you later with other feedback I've had. It'd be so much nicer just to say you're not right for that role because Yeah, exactly. I do. Yeah, well, that's great. Well, yeah, we'll definitely talk about that more. But so what would you say a producer does?

SPEAKER_01 8:33

Well, my sort of producer. Yeah. So I am asked by theatres to produce for them. So if I use Chelmsford as a model, which is a council-owned theatre, uh, they want a Christmas show, Cinderella, for example. Um, I will do the entire budget for them to say this is how it works, this is how many people, I want this script, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. They agree that budget. I then run the budget, but from then on, I will do all the sort of show side. I don't get involved in marketing, I don't do that at all. Um, so on the Christmas show sides, I would then book writers, directors, choreographers. Uh when I'm lecturing to students, I always say think of it as a pyramid, so that I'm at the top, and then you go down and you've got the writer next. And then, of course, you've got to have a director and you've got to have a musical supervisor, and you've got to have this, and then you go right the way down until you know you'll go, you've got dressers and assistant stage managers, and that so I will book absolutely everybody. I will also cast everybody myself with the director. Um, and obviously, over the years, I've got a pool of people that I do actually reuse. As an actor, I found that so annoying when actors when producers did that, but I do it myself.

SPEAKER_00 9:49

Um but it's understandable because you might have a connection or a bond, or also you trust them, you know what you know what you're going to get.

SPEAKER_01 9:56

So you know what you're gonna get. You know how they work, yeah, how they fall in with a company, how nice they are to work with, etc. etc. So when I'm doing other smaller drama work, then quite often it's funded. So right at this minute, I'm applying to the arts council, um, but we're just right at the beginning of it for research and development to work on a script, and then I would choose the script writer or use an existing script. I've done various, you know, I've looked back in Angus, lots of David Hare plays. Um, and then again I would cast director next, blah blah blah blah blah. That if I'm touring it, I would then work do the money side of it as well, but it would be self-funded by the money that's coming in, guaranteed, or it's funded via arts council private funding. I've had both, I've had both of those, so yeah. But the big shows are the ones I do are all the theatre, so they take the whole box office. I'm on a fee as much as everybody else.

SPEAKER_00 10:55

Right. But you you do definitely seem to have the power, so like decision-making power. Oh, yes, completely.

SPEAKER_01 11:03

Yes, yes, yes, yeah. Yeah, with the show itself, yes, yes, I would have. So if it was when I used to do for the some of the big commercial ones, I would be given the name, star name, um, because obviously that that's something I don't get involved in. It's not a world that I know in that way because I don't know where they've been before, what contracts they're on with those massive great companies. Um, but then after that, I would cast it, choose the writer, choose all the music with the musical supervisor, and just yes, book everybody else. So, yes, I do have um a lot of the power of the show, if you like, for a better word.

SPEAKER_00 11:40

No, no, it's it's it's a good word, and it's so nice to be able to have the power. Oh, I don't know. Well, yeah, I do, I suppose. Yes. Yeah. Looking at that, you mentioned this was going to be one of my questions. What especially with pantos nowadays, it's a lot to do with the name, isn't it? As in the celebrity. On the commercial side, yes. Yes, yeah. So, I mean, I've seen a shift over the years that um I live in Wimbledon and we we go to the panto every year. And often the name of the celebrity starts, they've started with people I don't necessarily know of because they're really big on TikTok or YouTube. And I'm not saying they're not talented, they they are very good at singing or dancing. Um, but I'm often wondering if, and you sort of mentioned it, if the name comes first, because you go, okay, we need a big name to bring the crowds in, and then we'll fill the talent pool. Would you say that's how it goes?

SPEAKER_01 12:41

Yeah, yes. I mean, obviously, certain companies get um known anyway. So Chones, for example, we have never ever had a name. And so Aladdin, which we're playing last year, played to 96% capacity throughout. And even when one of the big theatres down the road is South End, same company obviously that that does Wimbledon, which I know very well I used to work for them, um, they would they have a huge name there, but that never seems to affect, even if we're doing the same title, that would never affect Chelmsford because they have always run with that. It's much more of the traditional pantomime, um, and clearly they don't need to spend the money. It's only it's about 500 seats, I think. They don't need to spend the money, but obviously, some of those other ones going right up to Michael Harrison's The Palladium, which is you know, star, star, star, star, Julian Clary, and it's brilliant, Nigel Habers, and it's fantastic. But yes, so it's they just look at their budgets and who the who they think is going to bring the punters in, really. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

But I'm I'm glad you said that because I feel the same. I feel like you don't necessarily need a name to pull an audience in, you need a good product at the end of the day. So um, I I don't know if you know, but I run magical quests, we do theatre parties and events, and we have a space in Wimbledon, uh, it's called Merton Art Space, and we have capacity for 300 and we fill it, we do two months of shows, and all of our shows are free because we have sponsorship. So, of course, we fill it because people are like, free show, yeah. Yeah, exactly. But often they, I mean, not often, like more than not, they come out and they go, That was amazing. We went to see the one at Wimbledon. This was better. But but I don't know if that's a psyche thing because they haven't paid so they feel better. I like to think it's because we're bloody good, like of course, and we're we're fun and we're very interactive, and we're very much um, we don't have the budget to do glitz and glamour, but we we have a nice budget and we entertain, and at the end of the day, we tell a story, and I think a story is really, really important.

SPEAKER_01 14:54

It is, and that so that's the Chelmsford model, to be honest. It's it's a story all the way through the audience. I mean, I've produced there for I think probably about 17 years. Um, and so we've just built it up and built it up and built it up so that that audience know what they're going to get, they know what the product will be. They don't need to think that they whereas I've employed, well, because I've been given them, you know, loads of people from EastEnders and this and that, which are great fun to work with. And of course, they do, they do bring on the bigger theatres, they do bring the punters in because the minute that they're announced, all the box office figures go up.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:33

So that's how they do that.

SPEAKER_00 15:35

Um, whether and you're right, they need to fill those seats because they're a bigger venue, of course. They're a bigger venue, yes. It's actually almost a luxury to have a smaller theatre and be able to experiment more with telling a story in a in a different way with a smaller budget, perhaps. That that's how I feel.

SPEAKER_01 15:52

That you know, yes, absolutely. I mean, as I say, you know, Chelmsford, that's it. The other ones I I used to do, three commercial ones with names. Horsham, I don't think, used to have a name, but I think it does now. Um, but on the smaller theatres, I'm not sure. I think if you can build it up, you know, some of those like um Harlow does their own. Um, and always obviously quite sometimes smaller theatres say get the dame that they love, and then that dame goes back again and again and again and again and again, and they build it on it's not a name, but for that venue, that dame is a real good selling point. Like Neil, the best dame. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Wonderful dame. So you mentioned well, we we sort of said about looking at how the industry has changed. Now, one of the reasons I'm doing this podcast is I think there are definite changes in our industry that are brilliant, but there are some I feel aren't working against some actors. Um, so it's something I discussed with Neil from a casting point of view. So, and also um I interviewed Susie Bloom this week, who has just finished at the Palladium, and she was Catherine Tate's understudy. Right. And she I saw Catherine Tate do it, yeah. And Susie's Susie's brilliant performer, amazing, but she's sort of become pigeon-holed as an understudy, as opposed to an actress, perhaps in her own right. I mean, when people go and see her, they absolutely love her show. No one ever says, Oh, we came to see Catherine Tate or Dawn French, you know, they love her. But we were discussing how the way casting has changed. So, I mean, she's talking about 30 odd years ago from buying the stage, looking for an open audition, queuing round the corner. And in my 20 years of experience, for me, going into the casting room no longer happens unless it's a big recall. But now it's obviously everything's self-taped since COVID. There are loads of pros to that. I mean, having two children myself, it's amazing. I can do a self-tape, you know, I don't have to take the day out. I can still do the school pickup. I could do it at midnight when they're asleep. But at the same time, even this week I had a self-tape and I don't think they watched it because they actually wrote back, they offered me a different part, but the way they said it was that they had so many tapes that they were inundated, there's so many tapes, it's great. They've cast it already, and I see they didn't download my tape because you get like the Wii transfer thing. Right, yeah. But they've offered me a smaller part. Obviously, I was I was very nice and uh polite and said, Yes, of course, I'll take the part because I'm an actress, I just want to act. Yeah. But I feel like if they'd have booked a casting suite and we had all been queuing up to come in, they would have seen everybody rather than gone, oh, we've got so many tapes, oh, these are great, they'll do. I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 19:00

Well, no, I mean, because you know, um I suppose if you got, you know, it if I'm holding a casting day, which I always do, um, well, more than one day, and the the per the person that comes in first is brilliant. You sort of go, Oh, they're so good, but but we're seeing everyone else. Yeah, um, and quite often you do stick with that person because something about them has just clicked and it's brilliant or whatever, but you do then see every single person. You can't turn around and say, Sorry, you know, you've got to go now. I've done it, I've done that. So you do see everybody, definitely, and I think you get a different view of the actor from the in the room than you do on a self-tape. I understand that, you know, especially for pantomime, a lot of the um people do it, they're singers on uh ships, and so they have to send you a self-tape, or they're in a show, or this, and so that's fantastic that you can actually see them when they're working in you know Newcastle and they can't get down to the casting suite.

SPEAKER_00 20:01

But I'm not sure I I might prefer meeting people. But also, if you're gonna be working with someone for three months, don't you want to get you know, gauge how they might get on with the rest of the creative team.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah, because a self-tape is a self-tape. I mean, you could be vile and do a lovely self-tape and come across as really sweet, and you might be absolutely horrid. Um, but you'd pick that up more. I mean, you you certainly wouldn't pick it up properly because everybody's on their best behavior in an audition, but you still do pick things up because it it's when, especially when I'm auditioning games and they come in and some people just make you laugh. I mean, they just talk to you and make you laugh. Um and so you know that that's gonna work because they are their whole persona is that that you're looking for. Yeah, yeah, no, that that's a lot of change in a huge way. Yeah, I mean, doing self-tapes is massive now, and people expect it. I would say if I'm a con say I'm doing a whole day, I would say that agents will ask for at least a third of those now to be self-taped.

SPEAKER_00 21:09

Right. Wow, no, it's a it's a big change, and and like I said, it's definitely got pros, but I don't know. There's something about getting lit, you know, the term getting your foot in the door. Yeah, I I don't feel like a tape gets your foot in the door, but I think No, I don't think it does.

SPEAKER_01 21:26

I don't think it does. It's different if you're known, you know, and they say, Oh, can I just send you I'll sing that song for you? What do you think? That's easy because you know them in the first place. You're just seeing if they can sing how you would like them to sing for that role. Um, but seeing somebody from scratch, I think it's quite hard.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah, yeah. Also, another big topic of this podcast is it's about it's about looks, it's about aesthetics. I feel that although the industry has Has become very open and diverse. Like that word diverse is banded around a lot. Yeah, it is. And I did talk to Neil about this from a casting point of view, and he felt that diversity has got better. So people of different uh obviously ethnicities, races, age, gender, he said there are many, many more opportunities. But my feeling, and again, this is my personal experience, I feel that although we're able to see different ages, different colour, I still think we're very much pigeonholing actors, especially in this country, of how they look and what character they play. And this all comes down to my problem. My my big question. I feel like I spent my 20s being cast as a victim. I'm I'm very petite. Like you were saying, you were cast when you were younger as a boy, um, or you know, somebody maybe with a lot of energy because you're little, but I was often cast as a victim, uh, a prostitute, um, somebody, some bad things often happen to me. And then I took a gap to have children. And now coming back in, I am finding it really hard to get back in in terms of casting or who I am, and I feel that my looks are not trendy. My personal feeling is that my nose is holding me back, and that that's essentially the big question. So I feel that if I were to change my big nose, I would get my big break, and I know no one can tell me whether that's right or wrong. I know it sounds absurd to someone else, but that's my inner voice. I I get as far as the audition, the tape, um, then I get penciled, and then I get the classic line these days, which is the brand has gone another way. Yeah. And then when I see the because it's at the moment a lot of commercial castings I'm going for. So then when I see the commercial, I feel the brand has gone away with someone whose face is um more, I don't know how to say it, but their nose is smaller. I feel like their face is more comfortable viewing. It's not unique as maybe mine, or it's it's yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:47

Well, I think with commercials, I mean, I only ever did one because I mean I'm tiny, tiny, I'm four foot ten. Um and my dearest friend who I'm actually working with at the moment, um, she she's much taller than me, she's five foot six. She did commercials like there was no tomorrow, she never stopped. She had a fortune doing commercials because she could always do that, you know, hands feel softer than dishes or whatever it was. Yeah, with children by her side, which you know, if I had the children by myself, they'd be bigger than me. So I always accepted that I wouldn't be cast in a commercial. I I I did Kellogg's start or something years ago. Um, but it's tricky. I mean, it's tricky for middle-aged women. I mean, it just is. I'm not saying you're middle-aged, but I am.

SPEAKER_00 25:33

I'm gonna be 45 next month, but because I'm little, I don't look it.

SPEAKER_01 25:39

No, of course you don't, because people's perception. It's like when I still had long hair and I'm tiny, my mother said, Oh my god, when when you turn round, you look really old, you've got to cut that off. Um, because you look like a little girl from the back. Thanks, mum. Um mum say the best things, yeah, exactly. Um but but we haven't won. I slightly disagree with Neil on what you've just said. Um that I yes, I do think it's diversity, we can include all sorts of people that would never ever have had the opportunity before. Um but I don't think it's changed for middle-aged white women at all. And that's why, as part of the um the play I'm doing at the moment, research and development, blah blah blah, it gives opportunity for three women over 60 to work. It's it's it's all to do with women's suffrage and horticulture and all sorts of things. But that's one of the things we are giving three women over 60 three incredibly lovely roles because nothing's changed. We don't, you know, we're not top of the list anymore.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Well, I mean, I'm glad you said that because I'm feeling that, and and I feel like yes, there's definitely more doors opening for people. I've I feel like a lot of castings are looking for authenticity, but then they're dragging people off the street because they want them to play themselves, and that's wonderful for that person to have that opportunity, but for someone who's been acting for decades and they've you know they're bringing a skill.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

I know, I mean, I totally agree with your point, and I have a sort of further point because um a couple of years ago I did a Christmas show in Barking in East London, which is primarily black Caribbean Asian as a as a community, yeah, um, and certainly the theatre, so that that that was the the main theatre-going public that came to see the show. Um, and we had lots of schools of where the children had never ever been to the theatre before. We know we had to sort of adapt what we were doing because they didn't know that Panta is traditional, you know. Why should it be? You know, it's it's bizarre anyway, in its own right.

SPEAKER_00 27:52

Men dressing up as women, it's it's very strange to a lot of cultures.

SPEAKER_01 27:56

Exactly, and it's one, but it's also one of the poorest postcodes in the UK. Um, and I looked at all these children that kept coming in, and we gave free workshops as well. And the the problem is we're still not giving the children of that age the opportunity. So uh their parents uh didn't think I had to employ children on the show, that they they didn't think that they could go to you know drama school, musical theatre, because uh it's there's no opportunity in school. That it doesn't that they don't have that opportunity, they don't have the money. Um so there's this huge gap, I think, where we are expected as producers to cast diverse, but the pool is quite small because they're not given that opportunity young. You know, it in in sort of areas of the UK where we have a quite a poor post-COVID population, um, and we have a very diverse ethnicity or whatever, they're not given the opportunity young enough. So our pool when people are above training age is very small. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:06

And and if if you're first generation something in this country, your parents are very, very unlikely to say, yes, go into a profession that might not pay you anything. Exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_01 29:19

Or, you know, you especially when if you're going to musical theatre college, you you can't turn up at 18 having never ever danced all that because you'll be up against a thousand people that have.

SPEAKER_00 29:31

Um I actually mentored, um, sorry to interrupt, I mentored a young girl who uh was she sadly lost her parents very young, and she had an incredible voice, like amazing voice, and she could act. And I took her under my wing and she got an audition at the Brit School and she got offered a place and she turned it down because of all the other kids at Brit because they had all been tap dancing, jazz dancing since they were three. And I know and they were like, but we want you because of your raw talent, and she's like, I can't be in a class with these people because it's too overwhelming for me.

SPEAKER_01 30:11

Exactly, and I get it, and when we were doing these free workshops, I remember two little boys, they were probably I don't know, nine, ten, something like that, utterly brilliant, hilarious, could just do it. They they've never not not an ounce of training, anything at all. And but afterwards, you know, I was speaking to the the teachers, and it's like, but what opportunity will they have to develop that? Because then, if they were developed, when they've been on, they've gone to full-time training, they're going to be brilliant, and that's great. We will then increase the diverse pool that we have, but of course, that's not happening, as far as in my experience of that one area of East London, and it's such a shame because there is definitely raw talent around that, yeah. Um, and it's just lack of opportunity.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

And then I think this feeds back into what they're seeing on screen, especially, and this is part of what the podcast is about as well, this drive for beauty standards of men and women, you know, everybody you're seeing on social media, that you can only make it if you look a certain way. And I'm buying into this, I'm a sucker for this. So I'm I'm looking at all these people who are successful on my phone when I'm doom scrolling and going, oh, look at their perfect little pixie nose. If I had that, I would have that part. But one of the reasons I'm holding back from having a nose job is because if I were to make it big on screen, not on the cutting room floor, then there might be a child out there who goes, Oh, look, somebody with a, I don't know what you want to call it, a Semitic nose is on screen, and she's not just portraying the evil witch. She is portraying the uh well, very well, yeah. I mean that's a whole other thing. I mean, I uh for a living I dress up as princesses every week, and I've only once had a child say to me, and this is in 20 years, Cinderella, why have you got such a big nose? I love what children come out with, it's hilarious. And I said to her, I said to her, Oh, it was the um the way I was born, the way I was made, and then she said, and I said, No, I said to her something like, Do I look okay in my dress? And she said, But Cinderella, you're beautiful. And I was like, Ah, so big nose, is that evil witch ugly? Big nose, oh, you're beautiful. No, she was just making a comment. My psyche goes crazy with it. Like, yeah, no, she was just literally making a comment.

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Yes, as they do.

SPEAKER_00 32:54

Yeah. Out of the mouth of babes. Yeah. So then, so what I'm guessing saying is if I if my big question is, if I have the nose job, then the next generation of possible performers, actors will be looking, going, oh, look, she's got another nice nose or whatever it is, as opposed to, oh, she made it and she looks different or she looks like me. It I don't know. This is like why I'm making the podcast because my head goes crazy from thinking, what what should I do?

SPEAKER_01 33:28

Yeah, I mean, it you know, it's it's funny because it's the um it was the Abercrombie guy, wasn't it? Remember in Abercrombie and Fitch and they used to have the boys that were topless. So you'd go in, my girls were teenagers, they were complete suckers for it, and you'd go in and the boys were all you know hunky hunky. In fact, I used to know quite a lot of them because they were my students in real life. In real life. I missed that. You missed that. So you'd go in, um, and two boys be standing there topless. I mean, as I say, some of them were students from Arts Ed that had worked for me, they were hilarious. Um, and then the the the teenagers could stand next to them and have a Polaroid, and you'd be giving you a Polaroid. My girls loved it, total sucker. But of course, they got into huge trouble for it for using, I mean, there were issues as well, but for that portraying, we only deal with pretty people that have got that body and look like that. Um, and no, I think that's good that we've got away from that. Um, certainly in this profession. Um, I don't think that's you wouldn't you wouldn't in a million years be able to do that now. No, good god, no. But am I only talking about, I mean, Delcy's 26, so possibly 10 years ago? It's not that long ago. I don't I really that one went over my over my head. Yeah, no, you could have had there you go, you could have had a Polaroid with them. Um so yes, I don't think you know, I no, I mean, uh having a nose job is no way I wouldn't even think about it. That's like me saying I want to stretch myself. Um uh and so no, I I don't. I mean, I ag I I think our biggest problem is there is not enough roles as ever for white middle class women, to be perfectly honest. And I don't think a lot's changed over the years, and I think that we've been pushed slightly to the sidelines again because we know as is we're opening everything up, but if you like, women never won their argument in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 35:29

Yeah, yeah. No, that's I mean, this is what I'm doing. I'm speaking to so many different people from different walks of life, and um, it's it's really fascinating to hear to hear people's views. And where do you see say castings going in say the next 10 years? I mean, you've seen a huge shift as it is. Can you see where we're going with this? Do you think there will be more roles for middle-aged, middle class women?

SPEAKER_01 35:59

I'm not sure, to be honest. I'm not sure we I mean, if you think it's not because they've reduced, because we are now opening up to a much more diverse um, you know, actors, whatever, singers, dancers, musicians, anything at all. But it is still much more of a male world than it is a female world, certainly middle-aged women upwards. There's there's not that many really chunky roles for them.

SPEAKER_00 36:25

Um and honestly, I'm not sure I see that change. And like you said, you're casting for 60 plus. That that would not have been a consideration 20 years ago, because I think people are healthier, they are living longer. Yes, yes, that is very true.

SPEAKER_01 36:43

It is true. Uh, but I think that the actresses that even years ago that wanted to really have really good roles, you know, they don't want to always be. I I've got a friend who's always an understudy. Um I just don't think that I don't think we it got far enough for us. Well, and now I'm that I was obviously younger when I used to think it. Think, oh well, you you create vacuum stops when you're you know, you when you have children. Uh I didn't, I carried on. But it's I think because we now have that this the pendulum has swung and rightly to include to be much more inclusive, we've still now been sidelined because we hadn't got there in the first place. I mean, that's just my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 37:26

Yeah. No, I I totally hear it. Um, yeah, I'm very much validating that opinion from my experience and from other people I've spoken to. Okay. I'm not asking you to name any names, but have you um had the experience where you perhaps wanted to employ someone based on their talent, but you were told that they didn't look right for the part. I know that's a difficult one, but I I because sometimes we feel like in a reverse way.

SPEAKER_01 38:02

Okay. So I've been told you need to cast that look. And possibly the talent is slightly secondary to the look. So yeah, that's why I wanted to find out if it does. Slightly different way round of yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:20

And maybe less in, I don't know, maybe less in theatre, but I definitely feel in commercial worlds, I feel like the brand go, no, our last advert, we had a white middle-aged woman. So for our next advert, let's go for younger mixed race. I don't know, like as if almost like they're ticking boxes, which is a good thing as well, because we need to be representational to everybody. But yeah, so as you're saying, so at the beginning they might come in with that more than yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:53

If I've had a directive from a theatre, because remember, I I generally the the bigger shows uh I'm led on certain issues because it's obviously it's their finances. Um, and so I yes, I have been uh told the direction to go in on the look, and the talent would be slightly less than that, but I've never wanted to really cast somebody and I couldn't because of the look. It's no, that's never happened, never had to do that.

SPEAKER_00 39:23

So then when you do get the classic, the brand has gone another way, or the producer has changed their mind, or what is that a euphemism for? And what I you know, like we said at the beginning of this, I would really prefer they just say, actually, we didn't believe you're acting as a mother.

SPEAKER_01 39:42

I'm just saying, like I mean, as a producer, I feed back to agents, um, I just do, and sometimes people are utterly brilliant, but they're not quite right, and that's what I would say. Yeah. Um, you know, but I feed back the good and the bad. Um, obviously I'm not vile, but um I do feed it back. You know, if somebody's turned up and they don't, they haven't really thought it through, put it that way, then I will feed that back to the agent. Uh, very much so. So I've never used the expression myself, we've gone another way. Although I have said, but in a better way than that, actually, looking at who we've cast as let's just say, I know, let's say, let's say the prince and Cinderella, look at who I've I've cast. Actually, I'll I'll do a proper example. So the year before last, I produced Snow White, and I wanted it that the prince ate the apple as the idiot, and Snow White saved him because I'm so proud of you know Knight in Shining Armour. So I cast a boy who I love, brilliant, and he was only probably five foot six, and everyone was a bit sort of like, what he's the prince. Um, but I had it rewritten because he was so good and so perfect that I actually got the writer to write it specifically for that person. So all the other people that I'd seen that came in that looked right, if looked like an archetypal prince, I did say to them, I'm really sorry. I have trying seen this, I have gone in a completely different way and gone this way. But I've explained why.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Um, that's brilliant, Daryl. I mean we've we've got like less than a minute, and I love I I want to leave it on that note because I think that's what people want should be hearing. It's imagination. Yes, and it's Prince Charming doesn't need to be six foot four.

SPEAKER_01 41:41

He doesn't, he doesn't, and I won't say his name because I love him to bits. But you know, but what about Neil? What if I cast Neil? He's like four foot two or something and round. And he's like Prince Charming, I love him. He's got no hair. I mean, you know. So yeah, it's been nice to talk to you.

SPEAKER_00 42:00

Daryl, it's been wonderful. Thank you so much for joining us on the big question. Yeah, no, and I'd love to see my daughter lives in Wimbledon, so I can meet up for coffee.

SPEAKER_01 42:10

We'll do that. All right, lovely to speak to you. Take care.

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Bye. Bye.

SPEAKER_00 42:17

That was so fascinating, wasn't it? I really mean that. I think better word actually is quite life-affirming for me. It just seemed so refreshing to hear somebody in the casting decision-making seat say that there aren't enough parts for certain people, certain people like me, and that we do need to essentially think outside the box, um, think beyond our stereotypes, think talent over names, think why does the Prince Charming need to be over six foot? And also, it is really refreshing to hear a producer talk about giving actors feedback. For those of you who don't really know the process of when you do a casting or an audition, you really don't get any feedback. It's it's quite awful, it's quite soul-destroying because you leave or you sit there waiting for somebody to email you back, and you know, a week might go by, and then you'll just get this one line saying, sorry, we've got a different way. I think it'd actually be a lot more useful with if directors, if producers were to say, thank you so much for auditioning, but we want our story to show that you can be a prince charming if you're smaller, and we just felt simply based on that, we cast someone different from you, but your performance was great. Um, there are ways you can give feedback without being offensive. So Or you did a brilliant audition, but you were too serious for our comedy role, or we just didn't feel you shared the same sense of humour as the team. I don't know. I I'm thinking off the cuff, but I'm sure there are ways you can give feedback without offending people, rather than just we've gone a different way, because it just it it then makes you think, is that way because of my nose, or because of my height? I think I don't know, or because I'm a crap actor. Like, let us know. Because if there are loads of actors out there putting tapes forward, auditioning, and they're just really shit, then let them know because otherwise they're gonna waste their life. Um, yeah, I mean, genuinely, if enough people turned round and said that to me, I would give up this dream, I wouldn't just be blaming it on my nose. But I've not had that. I've had people say, I'm a great actress, I'm a great storyteller, I'm so engaging. So then why? Just tell us more. I don't know. I'd love to know what other people's experiences of this are. Um, no, I'm not any clearer on whether or not to have a nose job. I am hoping to interview a nose surgeon. The surgeons I've spoken to are very, very cagey, and of course, they don't they don't want to be seen as the baddies in this, and a lot of them don't want to be interviewed. But I'm hoping I've got one, and and at the end of the day, look at it, it's totally a personal choice. I am not judging anyone for what they decide to do to their face or body. This is just my journey and me pulling apart the industry I'm in because I do feel they pigeonhole people or make stereotypes that are not fitting to me. And equally, I want to talk to actors who have had different experiences to me, who feel like they have really won with casting because they have looked a certain way. There's an actor I spoke to recently, hopefully, I'm gonna get him on the pod, who feels his nose has been a huge benefit to his career. And um, yeah, isn't that great? So, on that note, I will leave it here and let us all go and contemplate that hopefully, hopefully, people do have more imagination, and maybe one day directors and producers will all be as honest and lovely as Daryl back. So, thank you for listening to the big question. I'm Jessica Kingsley. I have written and I present and co-produce this production, this podcast. So thank you everyone, and hope you'll carry on joining me on this journey. Bye.