How to Lead by Legendary Example with Jay Jacobson

In this episode, Jay Jacobson shares insights from his book Lead by Legendary Example, blending leadership principles with heartfelt stories from his diverse experiences. Discover how compassion, presence, and authentic leadership can transform any environment — from classrooms to funeral homes. This episode uniquely blends leadership philosophy with compassionate practices rooted in Jay’s extensive career including substitute teaching, funeral service management, and mentoring. Whether leading a team or comforting a grieving family, Jay emphasizes authenticity, presence, and kindness.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When the stakes are real, titles stop mattering. Welcome to the heart of the matter with Lavana, and I'm Lavana. We're here for the real challenges leaders face, the pressure, the expectations, and the stories that get loud. We talk about quieting the noise and leading from who you are. Let's get into it, the heart of the matter. But Jay, it is so great to have you on here. I'm so excited. You reached out to me through LinkedIn and I we had a conversation. I was a little skeptical, like, mm-hmm, who is this? And then the more I looked into you, and the more then we had that chat, I was just like, okay, you are the real deal. So I'm thrilled to have you on. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 0:45

Well, I I've been looking forward to this conversation. I know we've tried several times to make it happen, but uh it's it's worth the the wait. I uh I've listened to some of your material and it's it's just fabulous. So uh we should have a wonderful conversation today. And and the folks that are listening should hopefully will gain a few nuggets of of information they didn't have before.

SPEAKER_02 1:05

I have zero doubt that they're not going to, because let me tell you, I listened to your book and it's a lead by legendary example. Uh, and then I also just was I I found myself listening to what I was driving and having to do voice to text and notes. And then of course, you know, I would go back to them. I'm like, what was that? So, but I I figured it out. I figured it out. But no, that today I'm just literally between nuggets of what you know I've come across, your book, conversation with you. Like, I almost am like, how are we gonna do this within a the time frame that I hope to do it within? So I just have a feeling that wherever the conversation goes today, the conversation goes. So it'll be fun.

SPEAKER_00 1:46

We're we're gonna have a good time, and and your listeners and viewers are gonna have a good time.

SPEAKER_02 1:50

Yes, yeah. So everybody buckle up because this is not going to be who you would think would be being interviewed, because we don't tend to tap into funeral services.

SPEAKER_00 2:00

So people tend to avoid us. Um but I always say, you know, any day you can see me, it's a good day.

SPEAKER_02 2:07

Ah, that is if you think about it. Yes. Because I was thinking, no, when I walk in, I'm not thrilled to walk into a funeral home and then I yeah, okay, I got it. No, that's exactly right. If we can still see you, that's a good thing. That isn't a good thing. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Um, so I have to start though with one of the things that you had mentioned in your book is that you were a substitute teacher at one point.

SPEAKER_00 2:26

Yes, that was a very interesting uh time. Uh, and in our school system, they are so short of substitute teachers that in the state here they opened it up to professionals who had uh college degrees and had been out in the workforce and said, you know, we want to have you bring something into the classroom uh that we can't get otherwise. And so I spent some time going in and substituting in our high school uh classrooms, and and it was an eye-opening experience. And and you know, we have some major problems in education uh in in our world today. And a lot of us, if you don't under, you know, if you have not uh gotten close to teachers that are on that battlefield every day, you should. You should begin to understand that the challenges they face uh every day from from kids uh fighting them about being on cell phones and paying attention and and just the the in a lot of ways the complete lack of respect and discipline for the authority in the classroom. That's not the way I grew up. I mean, you respected your teachers, you followed their instructions, and if they told you to put your book away or put whatever away, you did it because you knew there were going to be consequences. Well, now in our education system, there's um a fear of litigation uh like we've never seen before. And the kids know this, and so they know that they can push the absolute edges of everything. And so it creates an environment where it is hard to teach. Um we're fortunate that our school system here is has changed their attitude slightly where they have made it uh to where cell phones are not allowed to be out in the classroom. Um, and we still have problems where there are some teachers who say, oh, that's okay, it doesn't bother me. It makes it hard for the rest of the teachers to say, no, not in my classroom, you put it away. Um but you can't you can't teach, you can't connect, and you can't communicate with somebody who is constantly being interrupted by text, by emails, by phone calls. Um, it's completely disruptive. And even if the student has this phone on silent and it's in their pocket, it's vibrating. So every time it vibrates, it takes them out of that learning moment in your classroom. And so you're constantly tr working to get them back in to concentrate on what you're trying to teach them.

SPEAKER_02 4:57

Yes. I'm a former teacher, so I will definitely say that back.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

My my greatest experiences, though, and it it taught me a very valuable lesson about perception. I was teaching um what in my day would be considered home ec class. Uh, since I run a cookie company, I thought, oh, okay, I'll volunteer for home ec. I can teach them something about the kitchen. Well, the series they were doing at the time was on interior decorating. Okay. So in my classroom are a bunch of the high school football players, and they're all at a table together and they're all gathered around one of the computers. And it was obviously what they weren't doing their assignment. The assignment was they were supposed to be writing uh a paper that instructed somebody on how to do something, to teach somebody, basically. And I'm like, okay, what are these guys doing? And they were literally the star running backs from the high school football team. I recognized them, I knew who they were, and I thought, oh, this is great. So now I have to go over and I have to confront them and say, get back to your assignment. Well, I walked around, and what this gentleman was doing was playing chess. And I thought, this is odd. I've got a high school athlete that's playing chess on it. So I decided I'd take a different tact. I said, okay, tell me about chess. I pretended I knew nothing about chess. And so he started talking, and I come to find out he's quite a good chess player. He was preparing for a competition that was coming up. And so I had him walk me through. Okay, tell me what you're doing. And about 15 minutes later, I noticed everybody in the classroom was paying attention to him and watching what we were doing and how we were interacting. And I said, now, what about your assignment? He said, Well, I don't know what to do. I said, You just did it. You just taught me everything you know about chess. Write it up, and that's your assignment. And all of a sudden you saw that light bulb go off in his head, like, oh, I do know how to teach somebody to do something. Um, but it it also changed my perception of, okay, how do we take advantage of those teaching moments and really make a lesson for not only the one student, but the rest of them, because they all started thinking about, okay, what can I teach? What do I do better than anybody else? Um, and so it's it started a whole different conversation.

SPEAKER_02 7:25

Yeah. Yeah, it we first of all, I love that you engaged with him and already worked with what he already had going and be able to model and show that. And it just reminds me that you know, leadership, like we we all are teachers in some way, right? We're teaching somebody something, and I view leadership very similar. We're everybody's a leader. And so I like just lit up when you said, I think it was in your book, that you said leadership is not a type, not a title, it's a position.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

You're not a leader unless people are willing to follow you. Right. And when you when you radiate those attributes, people want to follow you. And that's really the essence of leadership. Do you have people who want to follow your lead? If not, you just have a title. Uh, but if you're a leader, you don't have to have the title, you just have to have the skills to say, come with me. We're going someplace that's that's better than where we are right now, where whatever you're doing, whether that's learning, whether it's uh tackling a project, we're doing something great. Uh, come be part of it. Um and that inspiring others to come and do that with you is is what it's all about.

SPEAKER_02 8:30

Yes. And you led by example there, which I wish we'd all, whether you're in a school or whether you're in a business, you know, organization of some kind, leaning into the way of how you handled that. Like you could have reprimanded, you could have said, put that away, you could have said you need to do the assignment first, and you, or you could have sent them out of the room. You know, and it's the same thing in the workplace. We do this to employees, where we just start, you're supposed to be doing this and you're supposed to be doing that, where it can be handled in such a better way. And you modeled for everybody in that classroom leadership.

SPEAKER_00 8:57

Yeah. And that, and that's what we're what we're called to do as leaders. I mean, it isn't just in our our area of expertise that we have to lead. We have to lead in our whole lives. And and I talked a little bit about uh Mr. Bickford, the first funeral director I learned from. He was 85 years old. He he'd been doing this, he had funeral director's license number two in the state. I mean, he had been around forever. He'd seen everything, but he had the patience and he had the willingness to share what he had learned. And so he modeled every day inside the funeral home, outside of the funeral home, in the community and in his own home, the attributes of being fully present and leading people and doing it in a very respectful and dignified manner. And when you watch that and you see that spread throughout his whole essence, you begin to understand what it takes to be a true leader and a really quality mentor. Um, because if you're only that way in your occupation, it shows. As soon as you step out of that role, it shows that this is just an act. This is just for show. Uh, but when you're consistent throughout your life, uh, you become an example of of how others can can follow you.

SPEAKER_02 10:11

Yes, I wholeheartedly agree. So, how did you go from substitute teaching all the way to the funeral home services to then writing your book?

SPEAKER_00 10:21

Well, I actually substitute teaching was something I took on very late. It's only been a few years ago I did that. I was well seasoned in my career. It was like, okay, you know, I've I've done so many things, and I'm always like to tackle new new things. I I've, you know, one of the latest things I've done is I've done a lot with AI and learning how all this goes and learning how to use it. And that's a whole different story. But after years of managing people in the funeral home, of teaching them the leadership skills, um, it just seemed a natural when when the the call came out uh from one of the folks in my networking, business networking group, that we needed uh professionals to substitute teach in the school system. I said, you know, I can try that. Uh when I was in college, that was my minor. I was a secondary education minor. Um and I thought, let's see if you know how that works. And and so I I decided I'll just jump in. And I taught everything from home ec to shop class to phys ed, phys ed is not my thing. But shop class was interesting because um it was one of those situations where I came in a day where they hadn't expected the teacher to be gone, and their project was installing ceramic tile. And each one of these groups had had a four by four square of tile on a board that they had gone through installing the tile, putting in the grout. And I had one group that that really didn't care for the project, and it showed. Everywhere in that project, it was a disaster. And to the point one of the tiles had fallen loose. And so I said, Well, you know, you are actually very fortunate because you're going to get to learn something today that you might actually use out in the real world. And they thought they'd gotten an idiot for a substitute teacher, but that I've done every kind of home project there is, from tiling to flooring to to building things. And so I came and I said, We're gonna show the whole class how you take this tile out that's loose, how you remove all the mastic, how you remove the grout, and how you put it back. Because in your home, you're probably not gonna do a full tile project yourself, but you may have that one tile that's loose that you want to put back. We're gonna show you how to do it. And so instead of being able to fly under the radar and not care about this project, these four students were put front and center and had to demonstrate how they were going to replace this tile to the rest of the class. And so that learning moment, you know, that they actually kind of clicked within because I was like, okay, somebody's actually paying attention and actually expects me to do something. And I think that's one of the things that that we fail a lot of students in is the concept of low expectations. We get students that, you know, constantly underperform and and we get to the point where we just expect that. Well, I try not to do that. It's like I expect you to be able to do something, I expect you to find something that you find joy in and can be successful in. And we're gonna help you do that. And it kind of changes the way students see themselves and the way they see education. Now, one of the stories I talk about in my book goes back to my eighth grade uh math teacher and Mrs. Ingram, and I I was I was a terrible student. I I did no homework. Uh I I now you I understand with with the what we currently know about ADHD and dyslexia that there may have been some learning disabilities and going through, but mostly I was bored. And Mrs. Ingram was a burly woman and I mean hairy arms. I mean, she was nothing to look at, but she understood me. And so when I got to her class, she would say, Well, you know, this is the assignment for tomorrow, but you're not going to get it. So, you know, you don't even need to bother to try because you're not going to get it. But she knew that would challenge me. And so in eighth grade math, I not only completed general math, I completed pre-algebra and high school algebra in one year in eighth grade, but she knew what buttons to push. And when we start looking at our students and realize they're people, and what can we do to motivate them? What can we do to raise the expectation? Uh, it changes their education level. And I've always kept that with me because it's, you know, it just takes one adult in a in a kid's life to make a world of difference. And you can be that one adult.

SPEAKER_02 15:04

Yes. And I and I think, you know, there are a lot of teachers who have high expectations and and do their best, but it's not only having the high expectations, understanding how to, in this case, like you said, push the button. Right. Right. Like, what is it that ticks for each student? And that's where there's a couple things that come to mind, like, and the same thing again with employees too. But you know, like people have said to me in the past multiple times, like, how in the world did you teach middle school? Like I could never, you know, and this particular was a kindergarten teacher who said it to me one time, and I said, How in the world do you teach kindergarten? You know, like we all have our own spots, but what I have learned, and again, I will equate this to adults too. But when if I said to a middle school student, I said a sit down, sit down now. Yeah, well, I'm gonna get an attitude back. Just like no one, none of us like to be talked to that way or told what to do in that way. It has to be respectful. So as long as I said, Hey, can you do me a favor if you sit down? They did it. You know, like it's it's so just how you approached and or she approached you to figuring out what was gonna work for you, it's important that we do the same for others.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

Yeah. And when I ran my my funeral home, we we did when we did a tour through the funeral home, it didn't matter what age group you were. I always called it my seventh grade uh uh tour of the funeral home. Because in seventh grade, kids are curious, they will ask anything, they have no boundaries. And so, particularly in an environment where we had a funeral home where most people have no comfort to start with, they have no knowledge, uh, we would start, we're doing the seventh grade tour, which means as an adult, you can ask any question that you want without feeling stupid. And it it changes the atmosphere a little bit. And so, as you walk through, you know, the the room where we do the embalming, the room where we have caskets, the room where we set somebody up for visitation, they're a lot more comfortable to ask those questions that adults normally shy away from because they don't want to look like they don't know.

SPEAKER_01 16:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:56

And and very few adults know anything about the back site of funeral service. And so, you know, we we had a lot of fun with that. And, you know, like you know, when when we would go into the the casket room, I mean, uh most people they've seen a display of caskets, but they've never seen the casket opened up inside. They've never seen what makes up a casket. And so when we open up that bottom lid and we start showing them with the mattress and that everything adjusts inside and and how we do, I mean, the lights go on and they're like, wow, I didn't know all that. Well, of course you didn't. That's why you get to ask questions. So anyway, I kind of digressed a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 17:36

No, that's okay. I think it's it's just such a cool perspective because we don't funeral home is not something we all tend to have a high interest in and to figure out and to dig into. And it's yet we all experience it at least once, unless maybe a few don't, but for the most part, we do. And you know, I I reading your book, I'm just gonna tell you, and I listened to it because I'm better at listening to books, but I have to say, like the insights that you put in there, the stories, like it captivated me from the point of leadership, but also funeral home and lessons that you taught. And you tell such incredible stories in there that really just drive home what your points are. And um, it was just yeah, it was fascinating for me to hear. And I having been someone who recently, I lost my uncle a few months ago, and a funeral home that I have known in our town where I was living, um, to be stellar, that is not the experience we had at all.

SPEAKER_00 18:31

Um, and that's unfortunate when that happens. It um one of the things we always talk to our staff about, and one of the things I coach about, is that you know, we as funeral professionals, we do this every single day. But our families we serve, you got you only get to do it once. There's only one time you get to bury your loved one. And so we have to step back and we have to look at it with those kind of eyes and say, okay, how do we make this the best possible experience we can for the family we're serving? And it starts with listening. It starts with when you when you're talking with the family, being fully present in the moment and listening and observing what's going on in the room. Um, and I spend a lot of time now in my profession coaching uh people that are new to the profession. And one of the things that I've noticed over and over again is that a lot of those folks that are between age 20 and age 40 have a very difficult time with the human interaction in a room full of people. Uh they don't read the room well. And part of that is because at age 13, uh between age 13 and age 20 is when we naturally develop those skills of being able to watch people's facial expression, watching their body language, watching how they interact with other people. We're handing our kids uh a cell phone. And so now instead of looking around the room and paying attention to the adults and and learning those nonverbal skills, they're looking at their phone. And so there's a real deficit when they come to those kind of encounters where you've got a group of people and you have to be able to look them in the eye, you have to be able to understand their body language, they don't do it. And so we have to teach them how to do that, and it's and it's awkward for them. Uh, I don't know if you've sat in and tried to talk to uh a 21-year-old and look them straight in the eye. But three seconds and they're uncomfortable. They can look at you for three seconds and then they have to glance away and come back. And so they don't even know they're doing it. But when you point it out to them and you show them, okay, this is what's happening, and this is the message it conveys to particularly older people who you're dealing with and making funeral arrangements, it conveys a mistrust. And so you have to learn how to be in that moment. You have to learn how to look people in the eye to really concentrate on what they're saying and what they're doing. And it it's a process of, and it's very, it's very hard for some of these young people to get over that hump of being comfortable with that.

SPEAKER_02 21:18

Yeah, it I haven't really experienced that. And I have a 26-year-old, um, but I haven't experienced it with you know others. But I feel like, you know, there's so much that comes into play with that, but you're right, like we do hand on the device. But it was funny because I had a conversation with someone this morning and she said, I'm gonna introduce you to somebody when I do, just so you know, they're not going to really look you in the eye. Like it's it's not because she's not trying to be, you know, aware and to have this conversation with you, but because she's processing and she's thinking so fast that she's looking away to process and come back, you know. So it's there's like all of these other things that come into fact into factor, but you're right, like it's the screen, it's the screen, it's the screen. And so you reminded me that there's an activity I used to do occasionally with students. And I'd have them sit with a partner face to face. And I would say, for one minute, your goal is to not break eye contact. And it's a game. Do not break eye contact. And what's incredible is how uncomfortable they are. They will look away, majority of them, and they come right back and they know that they lost for a second, but they try to beat it. But I also can't tell you, Jay, the number of students who actually tear up because they felt like they were seen.

SPEAKER_00 22:22

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 22:24

So just those opportunities. So I something I'm really curious to know is, you know, leadership can have a lot of different types of pressure. But I think of like working in a funeral home, you are dealing with highly emotional people. They all have probably expectations of what they want in that moment, what they want things to look like, how they want things to be, what they do want, they don't want, and how much is it going to cost? Wait a minute, back up. So they have all that financial stress too that can happen. How do you handle that from a leadership perspective?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Well, you have to realize that when you walk into those kind of conversations, they're all critical conversations. Uh, one of the tools that has really helped me throughout my career is a book called Crucial Conversations. And I highly recommend it to anybody who is going to be dealing with people. And so that kind of means everybody. But it helps you understand what's going on in those highly charged uh conversations. And funeral directors, they're going to have those conversations multiple times a day. So we learn those skills. But we start by slowing things down. People are highly charged when they come to us because the emotions are high, they're in an environment they don't know. And just simply uh the tools of slowing your voice, lowering your voice a little bit, listening actively. Let them talk, uh, open-ended questions, uh, so that you're not you're not rushing a process. And so, you know, when when I'm sitting down with a family and making funeral arrangements, I don't start with a form. And I coach the people that I work with, don't start with a form. Start with a blank piece of paper and start with a question that says, tell me about your mom, tell me about your dad, and start writing notes from there. You can fill out the form later, but you're going to get a lot better information and you're going to be able to open up that kind of dialogue much better if you are using open-ended questions. And it allows the person on the other end of that conversation to share the things that are most important to them. And a lot of times that conversation goes in areas that you never even expected. Um, one of the other convers conversation starters I I've used quite a bit uh when I'm dealing with the the widower, the widower and the kids. I'll ask the surviving spouse, I said, How did you meet your spouse? And nine times out of ten, the kids have never heard that story. And so all of a sudden, it's opening up a whole big dialogue, a whole big uh process of a very positive memory. And it's intentional about a positive memory because if it led to a marriage, it was a positive situation. But then it refocuses the family to think about the positive things that happened, not the last however long of time that that the person was ill or was suffering or the tragedy that just happened. But it it focuses back on those memories and it starts down the road of how do we best want to remember mom or dad? And it helps pave the way to really creating that magical funeral that when people attend, they're glad they came instead of, oh, I'm so glad that's over. And if we do our job really well, that's what people leave with. Is I'm glad I took the time from my work to come and support my friend and that service. I want one just like it for myself.

unknown 25:56

Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Okay, I think that's when we know we've done our job well.

SPEAKER_02 26:02

Yeah, agree. I I love the listening aspect because it goes back to what you're saying before, you know, just taking a moment to listen. And I remember when my cousin, who I grew up with, was more like my brother, he passed away unexpectedly. And my aunt had said to me, her greatest fear was that we were that people were going to forget him. And so she's like, I know that you may see me cry, but I really I appreciate having a chance to talk about him. And I learned to start to say to people, like, I sat with someone not too long ago who lost their mom, and I said, and I said, very similar to what you said, but I learned this from somewhere else, you know, and thinking about my aunt and learned it. I just said, you know, what was your favorite memory or favorite thing to do with your mom?

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

And she totally welled up with tears, but then she like just lit up and smiled.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

And it's and that's an important lesson down the road for people who have lost somebody. And it was a lesson I learned early in my career. Um, I started off working in West Des Moines and I was serving a family. One of the calls that we got, uh, this lady's husband had committed suicide in the basement of their home. Very tragic event. Um, a couple years later, my wife and I bought the house next to her. And not because it was next to her, but but it was it was a good starter home. And so we would have her come over and we would sit in the backyard and we'd have a beer and we'd have some conversation. And her husband was a metal worker. And the downspouts on her house were all copper. And so just I was looking over and I said, you know, did Clem, your husband, did he make those downspouts? She welled up with tears. Now, this is five years after this had happened. She welled up with tears, and she said, This is the first time in five years anyone has said his name. Oh, because of the tragedy involved, no one wanted to mention him for fear of the tears. And we had a 45-minute conversation about her late husband and sharing all the details, the wonderful things that she remembered instead of the tragedy that that ended his life. And it was a very good lesson in terms of, you know, don't be afraid to mention the the person's name, particularly when it was a tragedy, because chances are nobody is doing that. And that person desperately needs an outlet to share the stories and the memories.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Yes. What a beautiful moment because the the the suicide was only one moment out of that person's entire life. You know, all the other special moments that came before that. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Exactly.

SPEAKER_02 28:46

Oh, this is so awesome. I hope everybody's listening to this and take this takes us away because you do. I know the person, because I have, you know, people have asked me questions about someone, and of course, I welcome like, I'm sorry. You know, and I always do say, like, if you don't want to talk about it, please, I understand we can move on, but I'm just curious to know if you'd share. But yeah, I just think it's such a do you have other tips for people that you've come across as you've dealt with multiplitude of families?

SPEAKER_00 29:11

Um don't forget to get back with them months later. Don't you know and one of the best things you can do is when you take a casserole or a or some kind of food, put it in a special dish that you have to get back. Because label it so you they know who it is. Yeah, but now you have a reason to go back and and talk to that person. You have to go get your dish back, or they have to come bring it to you. So there's a connection that goes beyond just the date of when you you brought something. You know, it's really convenient to put it in a disposable dish and take it to them. So you you know, it it sounds like that's a wonderful thing to do, and it is, but you if you take that extra step of putting it in something and it has to be returned, it forces another meeting uh after the fact where you have an opportunity when everybody else has gone home to be there for them. Um and food is a very important connection for people. We, you know, one of the things that I started, you know, I started a cookie company almost 20 years ago. And it started from making connections from businesses to their customers. But that connection, and a lot of businesses we worked with, they would try, they tried all kinds of things. We sent them a coffee mug, we sent them flowers, we sent them whatever it was. They sent stuff to them and they never heard back from the clients. But when they started sending a dozen cookies, the clients started calling back and saying, thank you for the cookies. But they're the psychological benefit of sharing something to eat that really connects you on a human level that nothing else does. And, you know, so I've spent a lot of time kind of studying how that connection works. And that's one of the things that you can do with people if that you're trying to build connection with. Go out for coffee, go out for a meal, send the food over, whatever it is, that that process of sitting down together and sharing something to eat is tremendous in building relationship.

SPEAKER_02 31:15

Well, Jay, I will sit down anytime to eat anywhere because I love food. You know, cookies, a casserole, whatever. You're speaking my language here.

SPEAKER_00 31:25

That's right. For me, it's pasta. I, you know, you you give me pasta, I'm happy.

SPEAKER_02 31:31

We all have our favorites, right? Um, which also reminds me too that, you know, some of the advice that I've been giving or thoughts been given about people who've lost someone is to go like visit them maybe a month afterwards because everybody else has gone back to their routine, back to the normal life, and that person has not. But now people are gone, you know, not coming, stopping by. So I do have um a couple people that, you know, I've lost someone unexpectedly. And so I all I do is I set a reminder. So this is a tip for someone. I set a reminder and and I'll go like two weeks, and I'll go like three weeks, and then I'll go like one and a half. All I do is send a heart, and that's the only thing I send, but it's just my way of saying I'm thinking of you.

SPEAKER_00 32:14

The other thing is is pay attention to the deceased birthday or their anniversary.

SPEAKER_01 32:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 32:19

And those are our huge days that the that person that's left behind is remembering. They're not forgetting. And so, you know, we all have the mindset I don't want to remind them of what today is. Well, they already know. So taking time to say, you know, I know it was uh their their birthday uh today. Let's go out and have lunch and let's talk about them. Now, I've got my secretary for many, many years at the funeral home, passed away about two years ago. And Joyce was like a second mom to me. And she had two daughters of her own. And so one of the daughters lives here. So every birthday, um, Joyce was was born on uh Cinco de Mayo, and so we go out for Mexican and margaritas every year, and we just laugh and we joke and we remember stories about uh Joyce, and it's become one of the our favorite days of the year.

unknown 33:13

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 33:14

Now it's a great way to remember a wonderful lady, it's a great way to be together in terms of of uh connection, but those kind of things you can do very easily and and create a tradition that that goes beyond just oh, I went to the funeral, it's done now. Um thank you for this.

SPEAKER_02 33:32

Thank you. I do want to circle back. You had mentioned crucial conversations, and one of the things that you had written down is how or why difficult conversations shape great leadership. And I wanted to know like what is your definition? Because, you know, going and revisiting after a while and dropping off a cast roll or going and doing something, it may feel uncomfortable, but I also think there's beauty in that being uncomfortable. So if we think of that as a difficult conversation, whether it's in leadership or in the loss of someone, how do you define difficult conversation? Like what is it, when do you feel like it's difficult for someone?

SPEAKER_00 34:08

It a difficult conversation or crucial conversation is number one, when emotions are high. Number two, when the outcome is is critical, when you know that conversation is going to have major impact, um, or when it has the potential to create hurt. Um, so those are things that you that I really look really hard at. Um, particularly when a conversation has the the potential to hurt. And that's one of those things in business leadership. You have to you have to care for your employees enough to know when you're going to have a conversation with them that's going to be unpleasant, there's a potential to really hurt them, to really hurt their personal psyche and and who they define themselves as. So you have to walk into those conversations carefully. When you have to reprimand somebody, when you have to let somebody go, um, you can do that without destroying the person. You can do it in a way that says, you know, this isn't the right fit for you. Uh and it would be wrong for me to keep you here in this position when it's obviously not working for you and not working for us. But that doesn't mean you're not a good person. It doesn't mean you're not a good worker. It just means this isn't the right fit. But when you can frame a conversation like that in that kind of a way, you can you can let someone go or change what they're doing without crushing them.

unknown 35:42

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 35:43

And our job as as leaders and as mentors is to build people up. It isn't it isn't just to get our jobs done. Um, we have to care about our employees. We have to care about the people we associate with. Uh, when we stop doing that, we become a machine and we're no longer the the humans that that we are designed to be.

SPEAKER_02 36:05

Yes. I our number one at Ignite Your Shine, our number one core value is heart for humanity.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 36:11

So the goal is to approach everything as human to human. Let's have humanity, let's have compassion, empathy around this. And yes, we still have to do, like you're saying, the hard things at times of what are those conversations, and maybe it's not a good fit or the right fit at times. But I also feel like that person, sometimes we can get in the routine or we feel like this is what we have to do. And and the problem with that is that we get stuck. And we get one life also, you know, like each of us gets one life. So to live it in a space that doesn't make sense or a good fit, it's not easy to hear. I've been laid off, it's not easy to hear.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

You know, and I think if we we should all go through that process, we should all go through getting fired or getting laid off, having to change jobs, um, because it does keep us humble. And it gives us a different perspective when we have to be on the other side of that and and have to let people go. And and for reasons that are beyond their control or beyond our control, those things do happen. Um, but we have to be able to do it with humanity.

unknown 37:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:13

Yep. So I haven't gotten to so many of the things I've underlined, circled, wrote down, but I am I'm gonna switch gears a little bit towards our end here. Um, because there were some quotes that just really grabbed me. Like I literally had to stop listening to the book and take a note. Um so is it okay if I share a few of those quotes and absolutely, yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:37

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 37:38

Okay. Um, one of the things that Paul actually brings an emotion to me is that people always remember how you made them feel when truth enters the room. Fantastic. Like it was supposed to be it was that last part.

SPEAKER_00 37:53

That's exactly what we've been talking about. There are times when you have to be brutally honest with people, you have to tell them they can't have something they want, they can't stay in the job that they want, and how you are able to allow them to come away as a whole person when you walk through that is huge. Um we that tells a lot more about the leadership, the manager, than it does the employee. And when we start to look at how we treat those people as a reflection of who we are as managers and employers, employers and and leaders, um we, you know, we don't have to uh model or repeat poor models. We don't have to repeat things that have happened to us just because they happened to us. And I've had managers who were very, very poor at conversations, very poor at reprimanding people. But if you take that lesson and take it as a lesson of how you don't want to handle things when it's your turn, you can learn from a bad example. And I talked earlier about Mr. Bickford. Also, at the same time I was working in that funeral home, uh, Mr. Steen owned the funeral home. And although in the funeral home he was excellent, he was the top-notch funeral director. Every family wanted to have him because he was on top of everything. Every detail mattered. As soon as he was off the clock, his life fell apart. Um and ultimately he ended up addicted to drugs and alcohol. He lost his business, he lost his family. Um, but he was an example of what, for me, of the the things you you don't want to have happen. And so you learn, yeah, he's a great funeral director, but you got to have that balance. You have to be real inside the job and outside the job. And you have to have, and number one, you have to have a really strong faith to do the kind of work that we do. Because if you don't have that understanding of this isn't this is all there isn't all there is. Um if we go into our job as okay, the funeral is it, and there is nothing beyond that, we have no hope. So when you can bring your faith into it, and when you can bring that uh the possibility of of eternity into it, you can serve families better, and you can handle the tragedies and the death and the all the things we have to do on a daily basis uh without crushing your soul.

SPEAKER_02 40:33

Well, that you hit the key. It's we have to have hope as humans. Yeah, you know, we do. We have to have hope.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

And we're called in, we're called in for some very, very tough times. Um, I spent a week following uh the crash of United Flight 232 up in Sioux City, Iowa, uh, where 112 people died, and processing every single one of those people, uh, taking care of their remains, getting them ready to be returned back to their families, uh, working the paperwork to make sure everything was accurate, making sure everything got uh in terms of transportation back home. All of those things you have to do, and and all of that all at once uh was overwhelming. And for me, I had to I ended up stepping away from funeral services for a few years to get my head back on straight. Um, we didn't have the opportunity back then to have PTSD uh counseling. Uh, we had to deal with it on our own. And my wife will be the first to tell you when I came back from that, I wasn't the same person. I was very withdrawn. I was very non-communicative to uh family and friends, and and it took months uh to come out of that. And it was done through faith and through an understanding of this isn't all there is. And uh, but those are the challenges that we as individuals and as humans have to be able to manage our way through.

SPEAKER_02 42:03

I am so grateful that you were the person to be there for them. And for that, when I was listening to that part, I've uh tears welling up, you know, and it was just the the care that you took, but I also understood. And I don't know if this is when you said this other quote, but I feel like there's a lot of that people have been through where they're dealing with right now, or you look at the outside world, and there's so much to comprehend and to understand emotionally. So one of the quotes you put was emotional numbness is not an absence of care, it is the mind turning down the volume, allowing you to keep moving through fire.

SPEAKER_00 42:37

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 42:39

You have a way with words. Let me just say that. Because I just again, you know, the truth enters the room to this one with you know, moving through fire. A lot of us, you know, feel like going through fire. How do you handle some of that?

SPEAKER_00 42:53

You know, one of the things I learned very early on is that you don't tackle the whole problem. You tackle one piece. You take the piece that you can handle right now, and that's the piece you deal with, and then you pick up the next piece, and then you pick up the next piece, and then pretty soon you have the whole problem tackled. Um young funeral directors, particularly when they're working with uh victims of auto accidents or tragedies similar to that, uh, and they're trying to basically reconstruct the person for someone to see. Uh, it can be overwhelming for them. I said, look at one thing at a time. How do we fix this one thing? And then let's move on. And then they can process through that because they've all been taught how to do those things, but they haven't seen them all at once. And so as we help, and it doesn't matter the situation, but this just works in our funeral service and and in our our care of the person that's died. But in any uh stressful situation, if you break it down to pieces, say I can tackle this piece. This is all I need to do right now, and then I'll move on to the next. But we can become overwhelmed and we can get frozen in our tracks when we look at the whole thing, because it is overwhelming. It's a how am I going to make all this happen? And and I look at that when I'm planning, you know, some of the large, complicated services that we do occasionally, where you're you know you're gonna have lots and lots of people. You know you're gonna have lots of eyes on you and a lot of moving pieces in in terms of making this service happen. You break it down into what do I have to do right now to get this to happen three days from now?

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:33

What are the problems that we have to tackle in terms of the logistics of moving people around and and getting them in so that you know it flows? Those things can be done into pieces. And when you do that, then you can handle that kind of a problem.

SPEAKER_02 44:50

Yes. It reminds me of the how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time.

SPEAKER_01 44:54

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 44:55

But in emotional situations, we forget to apply that to that too. So thank you. That was a great strategy to share. Um, so we're gonna lead into the last four questions that I like to end with. Okay. So are you ready? I'm ready. Let's go. All right. So, what is one thing that you still want to do or accomplish, Jay?

SPEAKER_00 45:16

Uh, that's a good question. Um, the big project I'm working on right now, deal with my grandsons. I've got two wonderful grandsons. And my goal in and and the the remainder of my life is to pass on uh a lot of the knowledge that that I've accumulated so that they don't have to make a lot of the same mistakes that I've made throughout my career uh to help them become fine young men when they get to that point. Um, I want to make sure that they understand uh their role as gentlemen is to treat other women, uh women in particular, with respect. Uh, we don't have a culture now that really teaches that. And I don't know how my parents did that, but my mom and my dad, I've got five brothers, and there is not one of us that would ever consider being crude, rude, or physically violent to a woman, and we become physically sick when we think about someone doing that. But those are the kind of morals I want to pass on to my grandsons. Um, because we have to, we have to be civil. And when we don't teach those things, then our society tends to break down.

SPEAKER_02 46:30

Truth. Okay. Um, if you could wave a magic wand and do anything in the world, what would it be?

SPEAKER_00 46:37

I would be on a cruise ship going around the uh Scandinavian countries. My heritage is uh Danish and I've never been back. Uh I've heard my grandfather when he was alive talk about Denmark. I've heard other friends talk about Denmark. My wife is Norwegian, her best friend is from Sweden. And so we've always talked about doing this kind of a cruise and catching all three countries and just having a wonderful time. And so we're gonna do that someday, but I need the magic wand.

SPEAKER_02 47:11

Well, I hope it comes sooner than later. Because yeah, as you know, someday sometimes it it doesn't come in that way. So, yes, I hope the next time we talk that there's a plan for that. Um, so knowing that this is you know to the heart of the matter, when it comes to the heart of the matter and leadership, you've given a lot of tips and thoughts and ideas and strategies and such. Is there one more that you would throw in that would be helpful for us?

SPEAKER_00 47:34

I I think the most important tool that people can have right now, and the most um the scarcest of the tools that we have when it deals with humans right now is being fully present. We go into rooms with our cell phones on, we go to meals with our cell phones on, we sit in family meetings or our watch a movie, our cell phones are on. And so we're constantly being pulled away. But just being able to shut out the outside world and sit with the people you're with, and I I often say, be where your feet are. Because if you're where your feet are and you're paying attention, that let the rest of the world go on. I can remember when we didn't have cell phones, when you know I've always had to carry a pager in so people could get a hold of me. And I uh having had to be available, it's such a refreshing time to turn everything off. It's a gift, and people don't see that as a gift. Uh to be able to shut out the outside world and just really be in the moment wherever you are, whether that's floating in a boat on a lake, sitting in a movie theater, or just having popcorn on the couch with your grandkids watching a movie, be there. Don't let anything intrude on that time.

SPEAKER_02 48:48

I would say my daughter's the one that really taught me that because she she does not have her phone like out when we're having conversations or over together. And I remember one time I had it and she said, just let me know when you're done. And I was like, Oh, who's teaching who right now?

SPEAKER_00 49:04

You know, but you go out to eat and you look around the tables that are around you, everybody is on their phone, nobody is talking to each other. And it's just a sad commentary on where we are. Uh, and you know, I've I made a and my kids laughed at me when I first did it before they had children of their own. Uh, I said, the rule in our house is there are no cell phones at the table. You, you know, if you're on call, if you they have to reach you, put the cell phone in the other room so you can hear it uh if it rings, but we're not gonna have them at the table. And if you need to take the call, you get up and you walk away. But when you come back, you're back with us.

unknown 49:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

And now, as they've had kids of their own and see how that appears with them, they're coming around.

SPEAKER_02 49:51

Yes. It is such a special time. Like they were really here for them. And a lot of times who we're connecting with, especially on social media, is not necessarily somebody who means something in our life like a lot, like they do, right? The loved ones, you know. And so I will share this. I we my husband and I recently moved to Colorado, and we have noticed that a lot of people, when they go to whether it's a restaurant or a brewery, they're playing some kind of game. And so we now have cards in the car and we bring them in with us and we play game multiple games together while we, you know, we'll stop to eat and then we'll continue. And I remember not too long ago, we stopped at this like restaurant brewery place, and we were playing cards. I looked beside me, they were playing cards. Behind me were playing cards, and then a whole table of a family, they were making crafts. And I'm like, how cool is this? Like, this is what it's about, you know, the connection.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

And games don't have to be competitive, they don't have to be zero sum. Um, they're a wonderful game. Pandemic for one. I don't know if you're familiar with a game called Pandemic, but it's a cooperative game where you're all working for the same goal. You're all trying to solve this worldwide pandemic and you're working together. And so those, particularly when you're starting to teach um young people to appreciate games, are great ways because nobody loses. You all either win or lose together. Uh, so nobody is singled out, oh, you lost. Right. Um, it's important that that you also teach games where people win and lose because that's real life.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 51:27

But don't overlook those cooperative games where you can work together to solve a problem, because that builds real life work skills uh in young people to realize how you work with other people to achieve a goal.

SPEAKER_02 51:43

Yes. Great advice. Great advice. I think it's important for both because the workplace is collaboration, cooperation, things out together. And then there's also the reality of what happens. Um, so the last question I have for you is if you think of you know a mentor or someone in your life, who would you like to give a shout-out to?

SPEAKER_00 52:00

Uh, probably the the greatest influence over my leadership skills uh was a gentleman I worked for in between funeral service. Uh he ran a financial planning company, Jerry Hatch. And Jerry was he just radiated leadership and he radio radiated honesty and integrity. And he taught me um the value of continued learning. We were always reading books, we were always doing you know, some type of leadership or some type of uh action adventure book to get our minds outside of work, but it was that constant. Do something to improve yourself. And unfortunately, he passed away a few years ago, but his legacy will live on in many, many people for many years because he treated everybody that way. He taught us all the importance of um being being present and being in a constant mode of learning new things.

SPEAKER_02 53:06

Yes, well, that's leadership. Shout out to Jerry Hatch. That's amazing. Amazing. Uh, what, by the way, is the name of your cookie company?

SPEAKER_00 53:14

Jay's Cookies. It's a jayscookies.net. And we ship all over the country. Oh, okay. Now, if you're gonna order one, I recommend our newest one, which is uh an Irish coffee, which is made with Bailey's Irish cream and Jameson whiskey.

SPEAKER_02 53:34

Count me in. Count me in. Okay. Sounds delicious.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

It is.

SPEAKER_02 53:40

Oh my goodness. All right, everybody, this is Jay Jacobson. He is unbelievable as you can tell. And I'm gonna tell you right now, his book is phenomenal from the point it's different. We were talking about this before we hit record, which about how his book, like your book is so different from a leadership perspective. And you tell stories, but you've got grounding concepts, principles that are in it, and you solidify that with examples. But you literally had me from the moment I hit start. I was like, I don't know if I'll listen to the whole thing. Maybe I'll just kind of skip around. No, couldn't. So well written, so fantastic. So please get his book, Lead by Legendary Example, Jay Jacobson. Jay, thank you so much for being on here.

SPEAKER_00 54:18

You are certainly welcome. Uh it's been a pleasure to do this with you today.

SPEAKER_02 54:23

Good, good. I'm just thrilled you reached out. So thanks to you. If today's episode gave you a different perspective, shifted your thinking, or caused you to reflect more deeply on how you want to lead, share it with someone you know who could benefit too. And if you haven't yet, follow the show so you don't miss what's next. If you'd like to keep the conversation going, connect with me, Lavana Roth, on LinkedIn. And remember, when pressure rises, be curious, have empathy, seek to understand. This goes for you and those you lead. Keep shining.