THE MUSICIANS SHED PODCAST: DR. WILLIAM FARLEY (PART 1)

In PART 1 of this incredibly special, full-circle episode of The Musician’s Shed, host Samar Newsome sits down with the man who served as the spark for his own musical and educational career: his high school mentor and "music dad," Dr. William Y. Farley.

From growing up in a musical church household in South Jersey—likened to the "New Jersey Jacksons"—to a surprise five-year stint playing for multiple United States Navy bands, Dr. Farley's path to becoming a pillar of North Jersey music education is a masterclass in preparation meeting divine favor.

In this intimate and nostalgic conversation, Samar and Dr. Farley look back at the history that shaped them. They pull back the curtain on Dr. Farley's historic decade building a legendary touring gospel choir program at Irvington High School, transitioning into the elite classical choral literature spaces of West Orange, and the distinct cultural differences between North and South Jersey music scenes. Whether you are an independent artist, a working music educator, or a student navigating your own creative path, this episode is packed with timeless wisdom on developing your craft, mastering the language of music, and learning when to let a season gracefully end.

Key Highlights From This Session:

• The Late-Blooming Spark: How a high school performance of Brahms' Requiem instantly turned a late-blooming junior into a lifelong classical and piano enthusiast.
• The "Worst" Interview Ever: The hilarious story of how a quick performance of Amazing Grace bypassed standard teacher protocols and changed Irvington High School history on the spot.
• Navy Bands & Mojave Deserts: Dr. Farley's journey navigating the intense jazz-reading auditions of the military to secure a rare, lifetime spot across concert, rock, and jazz ensembles.
• The Anatomy of the Shift: A raw look at the bittersweet reality of educational budget cuts, charter school shifts, and the literal "fire" that signaled it was time to step into a new professional season.
• Formal Education vs. On-The-Job Training: Why learning the "universal language" of all 12 keys unlocks the ability to communicate effortlessly across orchestral, jazz, and funk rooms alike.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Hey, this is Samar Newsom, and this is the Musician Shed Podcast. I have the best guest today. This is my mentor, my dad, the start of music for me, uh, outside of my mom. My mom is my mom, and she was my start. But in high school, I met this guy, and it just he just actually just facilitated. Like it's like God just put him in my life for that reason. So I like to introduce and present Dr. William Farley. How you doing? William Y. Farley. Junior. Junior. Junior, right. That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 0:50

What's going on, sir? Oh, I'm good. I'm good. Thanks for inviting me here. Oh, of course, man. Of course. Seeing all the wonderful people you've had on here. I'm like, what are you inviting me for?

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Oh, get out of here, man. Get out of here. So listen, man. The show is basically about um one trying to leave some information and wisdom for the future, but also just really recapping some stories of how we got to where we got to. Um, you know, I one thing, uh, we can't negate the past and the history that it took us to get to where we are. And you're a pivotal in my history. So obviously, it would be great to have you on here to share, but also to know more about what your history was. And I know you have a lot of things that you can share. I know you've shared, you had a whole career, multiple careers, as a matter of fact. Um, and so just tell us one, how did you get started in music? Because I know you come from a musical family. So, what was that like? I I liken you guys to like the New Jersey Jacksons. So tell it, tell us about your your start in music, how you got the spark of music, and what was that like growing up in that household?

SPEAKER_01 2:00

Yeah, that's that's a really good question. So um, yeah, I as like any other uh uh person you talk to is uh musically inclined or as a singer or a musician, grew up in the church. Uh my not my father, my grandfather was pastor of the church, had most uh the family there. Family were mostly musicians and singers, and so um you know, it was it was you don't really recognize that at the time, right? You know, uh because I didn't really uh uh get that interested in the field until I was a late bloomer, like um uh junior in high school. Um loving music, you know, loving, you know, listening to the real listen, love loving music, but didn't really know the uh the capacity or the potential that I had. You know, and so um I joined I was in choir uh and um uh I had this music teacher speaking to uh uh influential music teachers, she influenced me to uh play piano because this was Brahms piece, and I'm a classical person. I think it was the Brahms Requiem that we learned in choir. And that's when it hit me. Okay. Like, whoa, that's really, you know, listen to the progressions and everything. And so I, you know, from that I said, I want to learn how to play piano. Yeah, yeah. And that was uh um uh in my junior year, and um, and then I started taking lessons uh from there. And then I decided, you know, this is something that you know I might want to do, pursue. And that's how I got into music.

SPEAKER_02 3:35

Nice, yeah, nice. So again, church background, you know, and which is which is always something that again, when I grew up, like you said, I wasn't paying attention to to to like, oh, I love this. Right. Just was doing it. You didn't notice that you were you were just doing it, and other people might not have been doing it. Right, you know what I mean? So um, and that I just feel like this is just so natural, you know what I mean. So you was your grandfather a musician?

SPEAKER_01 4:02

I know your dad was a musician. Yeah, my grandfather was uh musician, he was a singer and he also played guitar. As a matter of fact, he taught my dad or influenced my dad to play guitar, yeah, if I'm not mistaken. But I think my dad took it from there, you know, because I think he liked the instrument. Uh and um and he also started, you know, in his uh early 20s, I guess. Okay. To play guitar. But he turned out to be a really masterful guitar player.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

Wow. Yeah. So how was that growing up? Because obviously he was past 20 by the time you were growing up um in the house. What was what was that like? What was it like? He had a career, I'm sure, as a guitarist. What was that and how did that influence you?

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Well, um, he he did uh uh have a career. He played with uh a renowned gospel quartet, the missionary Drew Belairs. Okay, and um, and that was his life. And um uh I I have to be honest, I wasn't a gospel quartet fan. Okay. So it didn't really, you know, it wasn't really that, you know, impressive. Uh he'd be around the house playing the guitar, all you know, on the toilet everywhere, you know. So but but we would go, you know, because the the quartet would have anniversaries, we'd go and they'd be at our church every year, though our church anniversary, they'd be our special guest. Okay. And so uh yeah, but um it's funny because he never talked to me, and I have a younger brother who also plays. He never talked to us about, you know, wanting to learn an instrument. I think there was a time when I was catching on on piano and he wanted to teach me guitar. Like, nah, this this ain't this ain't what I mean. This ain't what I feel. So we put that down. But he was still um uh excited that I could play piano and uh to the point where he actually started coming to church to play guitar because I was on piano. Wow, yeah, and so that's how it was for years. Um, but again, I wasn't a quartet fan, you know, choir. So so a lot of how he played guitar was quartet style. Right. And so I kind of learned that same thing on piano, learned how to play for quartet. Uh but um, you know, I then I as I was catching on, I learned how to branch out and play other types of uh music.

SPEAKER_02 6:19

Now that's that's great. Now, who who were some of your musical influences growing up? Because obviously at that time, um you you had you probably grew up in a time with some of the biggest musical influences. So I'm curious who are the people you were listening to and were influencing.

SPEAKER_01 6:36

That's a good question because um one of the first songs I played on the piano was Follow Me, and that was Walter Hawkins. Okay. The Love Alive one album. And then that's when I fell in love with gospel music because I'm sure like James Cleveland was a star, you know, yes. But Walter Hawkins came along, and I was like, that's he changed the game. Yes, that that's what I like right there. So I bought the book, you know, but I did learn how to play it by ear first. Right, right, right. But I wanted to see how how am I playing this right? So I I bought the uh book, and and when I learned how to play uh Follow Me, my choir felt I could play anything. Right.

SPEAKER_02 7:16

And I couldn't. You played that? Okay, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Oh, oh, you could you could play this and this. And so uh, but that is how I got uh very familiar with the piano. Right, right. Because I had a really good ear, you know, um, especially back then because it was like one, four, five, yeah, six, you know, maybe add a seven on there. What they're doing now, like I gotta figure that all out. But uh it wasn't that difficult back then with the Shirley Caesars and all that. But uh they thought I could play uh just about anything. And and you know, I I was faking the funk, you know, but uh I did learn how to, you know, uh you know, using my ear, learn how to play a lot of a lot of the music. So they actually were really big in helping me to become, you know, uh or uh using my ear. You know.

SPEAKER_02 8:07

It's funny you say that because when my my first church job, and you you you introduced me to this person to Reverend Ellaby at the AME church in Irvington. And back then, I probably knew like two or three songs, you know, because I because I first came on as a drummer. Right. Right, right, right. We had did a we had sang at her church, and then she's like, hey, you got somewhere you need, you know, you got somewhere you could be, can you come back? Basically, and it was some girls there so that probably influenced me coming back. So I was like, Yeah, I could come back, I can come back for this, and you're gonna pay me to come back too. So that was kind of my introduction, but then like quickly she became uh the pastor of another church. Um, but right before that, I had to do a service for her. I remember my first service playing for her um in Roots Restaurant upstairs. Right. And and I was like, I don't really know how to play, but the main musician couldn't make it. And she was like, Well, I'll pay you more if you play. And I'm like, Okay, okay, whatever, whatever I know. I'm just gonna and I literally probably knew like two or three songs, but like you said, you learn how to the progressions are kind of similar song to song, right? It's not that far off. They're probably playing stuff wrong too, but it was still better than not having anything for them at the time. Yeah, so you know, I I I I remember that, and it's just so interesting to to to reminisce on that. Like, okay, and I also was grateful that somebody was taking a chance and just grateful that I was there to say, hey, we're gonna pay you anyway because you're here, you know what I'm saying? Like we we we want you here, and so I always think about that. Again, it was it was it was great, but it's funny you have this.

SPEAKER_01 9:50

You know, and I I like what Reverend Ellaby, like and and you know, we I know we'll get to Irvington, but that that whole setup, you know, is just like being at the right time at the right time. Exactly. And uh Reverend Ellaby was just I I I absolutely love Reverend Ellerby. Yeah, but she was very uh um uh um good at you know bringing out talent or working with you know younger folk. Yeah and uh I I loved her for that because where I was you know doing my part, she kind of took it from there, yeah, you know, and was uh opened up a door.

SPEAKER_02 10:21

Yes, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, her church. I mean, look, at one point, myself, Hassan, Dale, we were all at the church. Right, right. Um, then Khiv. Khalif, yeah, that's right. And then O'Neill. So, you know, like you make she basically had like a nice pipeline from you of musicians. That's funny. So, but again, she was she her she was open to that. You know what I mean? And so, you know, it definitely shout out to her for being one of those people. I've had several people like that in my career, so it I'm grateful that people were not so, you know, uh uh, you know, so demanding or so like rigid in what they needed at the time. They were just grateful to have somebody that was available and and learning, but they were okay with that. So um you you you found those places. One one thing um I want to mention is something like I've I've been telling all of my friends now, I have a lot of friends from South Jersey now. And you know, over the past really the past half decade or so because when I did the documentary, I met a lot of people from South Jersey talking about their their journey and the legends of South Jersey, but also um just in in passing now, and some of the like always reflect on how how nice of a person you were when I met you. Like you were always like a like one of the most humble people I've met. Period. And and in in and seeing that, everybody that came through your your circle mimicked that. Everybody. Like we all were like, yo, Farley's just chilling. I didn't really see you yell as a teacher, and I was with you all four years. Yeah, but I think there was one time I saw you kind of get, you know. Yeah, the way you go up. You know, but I ain't gonna talk, we ain't gonna talk about it, but I'm just saying, like, I'm saying that to say, like, to know you as long as I've known you, yeah. I've never seen you break character, you know what I'm saying? And so what was in the water in South Jersey that made you guys just really like because it's a different culture up north, you know what I mean? And and even I talk about music culture um in a documentary is how where we grew up, it was a little bit more cutthroat, a little bit more like clickish, you know what I'm saying? And so, and I know you got to see that firsthand when you came up when you were innervics. So, what what was different in that culture that that kind of facilitated more growth and more camaraderie in in the South Jersey?

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Um, well, um, I don't know if it had it has to do, I I I knew a lot of musicians uh where I grew up. Um and we were, you know, once we met each other and we we got our little circle going, we were, you know, all pretty much, you know uh fine with each other. We we didn't compete, we didn't, you know, um uh we worked together very much. Um and uh it was it was uh when I came up North Jersey, I saw a lot of you know differences there. I gotta name some names I'm not going to. You don't have to know. But I'm like, wow, like is it like that? And is it is it because I gotta tell you, when I started at Irvington, um, and I I know you know, remember how it started with Bobby Jones.

SPEAKER_02 13:36

Uh yeah, so tell us how you got that gig.

SPEAKER_01 13:39

Yeah, because I think that's an interesting story. So uh it's just a story, interesting interview. So Kasprisky, if you remember him, yeah, I'm gonna put his name out like that. But he was the supervisor at the time. Yeah, I like Kasprisky. Uh and um one time he said to uh we had a faculty meeting, and he said, uh, yeah, Farley, that was the worst interview ever. So so I was like, the worst interview ever. So everybody looked at Bert Carney all looked at me. How did he get hired? So so so what what he meant, because it took me a minute to because I was like, but what he was saying was I thought back on the interview, and when I came to interview, um the first thing he talked about was Don Malloy having Bobby Jones come there for a gospel like expo or concert or something like that. Yeah, and so he was like, Yeah, you know Bobby Jones. I was like, Yeah, no, I watch him every Sunday morning. He's like, Oh, cool. Do you watch? I mean, do you play uh Amaz? Can you play Amazing Grace? Like, can I play Amazing Grace? This is an interview for teaching. Right. Educate music education. So I was like, Yeah, I could play uh Amazing Grace. So we went down to 12, was it 1224? Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, oh 24? Oh, 23. Yeah, yeah. So we went down and um and uh got on the piano, grand, and um and I just started playing. Bro, I didn't get past the second measure. He was like, that's it, you're higher. You're higher. And I'm I'm like, but that's what he meant by the worst interview on his part.

SPEAKER_02 15:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because he because his expectation was I just need this right now. That's right. I don't know if you like kids or not. I don't know if you can teach. I don't even know if you know this major scale. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

You can play a basic. You could you can do it. You could do some gospel. And and so, yeah, you know, I was fine with that. I didn't even know how a real interview would be. Now that's favor, though. That's favor.

SPEAKER_02 15:40

I mean, my my first my first job teaching the director, it's just like Kasprisky, was uh Dr. Um Dr. May. Okay. William May. I don't remember that name. And Dr. William May just said, hey, and I was actually I tell I'll tell the story because this is how I reflect on favor. Because that was favor. Yeah you know what I'm saying? You were you were prepared for the opportunity, right? And and it literally handed itself. And that and that happened to me my first teaching job. I remember Dr. May before he called, I was like looking at all of these different school districts, you know, in in other neighborhoods. Not I wasn't looking in Newark, I wasn't looking in Irvington, I was just looking like, you know, Short Hills or, you know, all these other places. Yeah. And you know, and just like, okay, I'm gonna have to get my resume together, all of these things. And Dr. Mae gave me a call. Because he he had been coming to Westminster prior to my graduation, like for years. He was working with them and um just just trying to get uh students there from Newark and stuff like that. And he called me, he was like, Hey, you want a job? Just like that. Now he had he was familiar with me, he seen me sing before, seen me play before, but he's just like, You want a job? I said, Yeah, yeah. He was like, Yeah, because they're looking for a music teacher. And I'll never forget, he was like, Looking for a music teacher. And the and the salary just went up to $40,000 a year. I was like, okay, I ain't making no no thousand dollars a year. So that sounds great. And he was just like, yo, and he said, all you gotta do is go call, what's the what's the uh principal's name? Fernard Williams. He said, You can call Fernard Williams. Yeah, he he's he's waiting for you. I was like, really? So it's like, all right. And I I called him, and he was like a stern police guy. Yeah, and literally, it just really wasn't about where you get hired. It was just like, let me just check out who you are. Right, right. You know what I'm saying? Wow. So, and it literally was that. It wasn't it wasn't no fight. I don't even think I gave a resume. It was just like the resume was was was the recommendation from Dr. May. So that was it, right? So, so that's again, those those similarities, man, just seeing God work that way, yeah, and and throughout my life I've looked for that. Like I've said, okay, when I believe God is in it, it's gonna work out these ways. Now, it doesn't work out there every single way, but almost every situation that I can look at and say, okay, I spent significant time in this situation. That that's kind of how it started.

SPEAKER_01 18:11

I absolutely agree. And I I will say that every journey that I've been on has been in favor, you know, God's favor. Because um, I'll go back to I didn't mention that. I also was, and people like, nah, I don't believe that, but it's it's true. I was in the Navy for five years. Yeah, I was gonna have you go talk about that. So did you did music in the Navy? So talk about that. Yeah, so so I went in and I I tell the story all the time, but you know, I guess if my father was alive, he wouldn't like to hear this. I mean, he tricked us in going in the Navy, me and my brother, yeah. I don't regret it because it was a journey and it was you know uh something that I I uh uh treasure, you know, the fact that uh I was able to serve my country. But um I went in as a hospital corpsman.

SPEAKER_03 18:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 18:57

Um and um I would I was stationed in the desert. As for anywhere in California, they put me in the desert. That's not what I expected.

SPEAKER_02 19:05

That's not what I asked.

SPEAKER_01 19:06

Oh, in the debate, like LA or those other places in the middle of the desert, Mojave Desert. But um, and so you know, out there you need a lot of you know uh um motivation because it's in the desert. So we'd always have these gatherings, and um, I would they would have a piano and I play or sing. And so uh the other sailors, you know, will be like, yo, you need to you need to be in the the band. I'm like, yeah, but you know, that would never be possible because once you're in a navy band, any band, and like you guess 13 at the time, you ain't coming out. Really? You ain't coming out of the band. So uh a week after that, guess what happened? What a spot opened up in the Navy band for piano players.

SPEAKER_02 19:51

So you're saying that if you if you got in a band, that was your spot. That was your spot for you. And people never left. You retire out of you know, so so it wasn't even like a possibility because you didn't think anybody was gonna give up their spot.

SPEAKER_01 20:05

That's right. Wow. And so a week after that, somebody ran. They were run favored, they were running. Farley, look at this. This is your spot. We were like, we were like, you know, but the thing is I still had to audition. Um and so uh You didn't play Amazing Grace, did you?

SPEAKER_02 20:20

No.

SPEAKER_01 20:22

No, not this time. Actually, uh the band, uh the any Navy band, they they uh specialize in jazz, like this. Okay, nice or reading, you know. If you're a read, a good reader, you know, because I wasn't really a jazzist like that. Okay, you know, but I I did um pick up a lot of of things. Uh uh because in and why when I was when I auditioned, got accepted, went to um uh Navy School uh music school in uh Little Creek, Virginia. Okay, they have their own school, yeah. Oh, nice with with the the Army and the Marines. Oh, that's cool. Of course, we didn't get along with the Marines, but I was another story. But um, and then I was stationed in Navy Band Seattle. So they had uh a show band, they had a concert band, they had a rock band, a jazz band, you know, and I was the piano player for all of those bands. Nice. But the jazz band was the more challenging. Okay, because you know, those guys, uh, you know, the Navy uh musicians, they're outstanding musicians, a lot of them. So, you know, for me, I wasn't a jazzist. I I had learned some jazz when I was before I went to uh before I graduated high school, there was a dude uh named Gladstone Trot. He was amazing, okay. Teacher, uh amazing jazzist, uh, and and so I had some skills. I could I could kind of navigate a little bit. But uh I learned a lot, you know, while I was uh um in those bands, and particularly the jazz band. Nice. So I forgot how I got here. Uh but I I was I was uh using that as an example. But favor. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Favors, but you know, that that was favor. Yeah, absolutely. You know, so so it it everywhere I've been, or where every journey, uh, even even after I was uh the decade I was at Irvington uh and wanted to uh uh leave Irvington at the time I was living in West Orange and I stood was working on my master's and I met a teacher there a West Orange teacher wow and uh we we uh I don't know if you remember uh well of course you do uh Patricia Corbin of course Miss Corbin she was my mentor at Dr.

SPEAKER_02 22:25

Corbin I miss her so much yeah she was great um she started this Essex County choral festival yes yes when I was there yes yeah we did it with Art High at uh Essex County College the first on her part that was and she just created that yeah yeah and so um a lot of the schools who were not uh uh involved in the region choirs and in the Allstate choirs uh she got them to come out and perform West Orange came and they sang um this uh uh Mozart uh Lacrimosa okay and I said to myself wow that that's what I want to get to I love Irvington but that's what I want to get to right there uh and so um that's when I decided you know I wanted to um how do you say I want to I want to more challenges yeah yeah yeah Irvington was a challenge I had a different a certain challenge yeah which was probably more social right than anything but um but even how you got there through the audition you ended up um and we could talk about that but you're saying you you you wanted now to challenge your musicianship exactly and I and I wasn't able to get that far yeah at Erminton so um I was working on my master's and I met a teacher who was a West Launch music teacher okay and um I said uh yo if you ever hear about any openings at West Launch I'm interested next week we meet no so you got so your favorite is like one week out that's right set up period for you that's right you know I was willing you know what all right so next week I'm gonna be doing this right but that's how it happened it's it's it's you know crazy but uh you know and that's the favorite God in it and and I knew it was time um uh to to uh switch roles um because um I think the job that I had done at Irvington and the journey God had me on at that time was done.

SPEAKER_01 24:32

Yeah you know you told me there was an incident that you said ah no I think it's time now had to do yeah you know I I I had I I was thinking about that the other day because um I saw uh miss Anderson oh yeah online and I was talking to her but um yeah it was it's it was crazy how it happened because I I I was I came in late that particular day and um and I was dressed you know the case it was it was the end of the year yeah so I was dressed you know kind of casual yeah I used to wear the suit and tie I was always in the suit tie so so I had bought me some Timberlands real Timberland and I was walking I was so cool I was like they're gonna like me about the Timberless as so as I'm walking to the class uh Moselle Anderson meets me in the hallway and she's like I'm so sorry I was like sorry for what she said you don't know I was like no I what do you she like is that why you dressed like that you got about the red like what are you talking about this Anderson they burnt your piano and I'm like oh man so I they knew you were leaving they they were mad that you were leaving they had anything I don't I don't even know if I had said I wouldn't no you didn't know they didn't know I'm just saying that I'm just saying like spiritually the demons were like ah he's out of here right let's let's just make them ready to go yeah yeah yeah that was the extra push that I needed right right right so uh yeah I went down and sure enough the piano the keys were all soothing wow smoke still coming out of the wow I'm just joking but uh so I was like you know I I wasn't even bothered by it because you know I'm like you know I I'm I'm ready to move to move anyway and I guess this is a sign or something you know it's it's crazy because it's hard to always understand when that time comes because you think about all of the time invested that's right all of the things all the memories because you usually have great memories but there's a time yeah I mean what Ecclesiastes time and place for everything season for everything.

SPEAKER_02 26:42

So um when those seasons come I know for me some sometimes it is bittersweet sometimes it's hard yeah yeah yeah so for you was that uh you said by then you you knew it was kind of over so um it was I'm sure it was still bittersweet because you still got attachments there.

SPEAKER_01 27:00

Yeah it's just attachments and that was what's what's made it hard what made it hard each time because I I was you know be working with students like I want to stay until they graduate.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

Yeah I want to work with this class yeah yeah yeah I won't wait till this class then I'm out you know it was with West Orange too like I'm I'm gonna wait you know I'm not gonna retire yet I want to see them out you know but um you know and when when it's time is it's time and you decide to kind of you know detach yourself you gotta allow it to be be over yeah yeah um so then you had a whole career at West Orange as the as an um educator there what was now before we talk about that you you made history at Irvington High School I mean which impacted all of us one of the things that for me as a student stood out was like I said you were welcoming I was on the stage in your in the first concert I remember you were like who's that guy up there yeah yes I didn't happen to have the right colors that day and again I was singing in my mom's choir at church or playing drums there and so some of those songs were overlapping some I didn't know but I was like yeah it's gospel I learned it after the first couple stanzas or whatever but um where you where you made history is that you you created a choir I'm sure with the Bobby Jones uh uh concert but then that choir basically toured you know re uh regionally locally yeah yeah for your whole time there yeah and and I'm sure that there were people impacted it's not just uh people who got to hear the choir but I remember we did the McDonald's gospel fest we lost a couple times and then we actually won.

SPEAKER_01 28:50

What was that part of the journey and how fulfilling was that seeing students come and go and actually having those victories and those performances along the way yeah that that was and I you always separate the two schools but but at Irvington that was the highlight or I think my biggest accomplishment in Irvington was was being able to um uh uh cre uh initiate get this choir started but then I didn't I didn't see that coming I didn't see you know the fact that they were gonna you know love the and and also um when um uh the kids uh I guess they rallied around the principal like we want this to be yeah a class because it wasn't a class and they made it a class yeah that's crazy and usually when that happens you have to write a proposal you have to you you know to put it into the curriculum they were like got it we're gonna do it it became a class you remember and a lot of folk were able to join because it was that last period of the day yeah where you know juniors and seniors could go home if they wanted to but they stayed but that that was uh the the biggest accomplishment uh uh for me at Irvington being able to watch this choir grow and impact the community and and I don't know where I guess I was younger to be doing as a matter of fact I'm putting together a a book of you know memories I think we must have done a hundred or a couple hundred gifts yeah absolutely in that decade that I it's uh which is crazy yeah I mean because teachers don't do that right I mean you know teachers will perform in general I know you know from when you went to West Orange that was a different experience yeah but probably more normalized like okay this you know all city all you know whatever choir all all state and the the the what Disney performances all that or the Hershey Parks or you know six flags so those are more common not churches up the street and McDonald's gospel fest competitions people weren't doing that no so so that's why I say it's kind of historic as a matter of fact I don't know somebody would have to tell me that there was another choir in Essex County who did that or even in the state I don't even know if there was anybody else doing it.

SPEAKER_02 31:05

I don't recall I knew I'm sure there was gospel choirs. Yes but a lot of them were student organized right they weren't necessarily a class right I'm sure they were in a class because Artie didn't have it and because I know they had organized themselves to do that. And then who else did it?

SPEAKER_01 31:22

If if our tie wasn't doing it in North who would you know it's funny uh looking through uh my you know list of uh gigs there was a weak way choir you know I guess because because we sang there one time right now so we did run across some even um Columbia I think okay yeah yeah yeah I think I remember Columbia they were part of the Essex um thing I believe if I'm not mistaken when we did the thing with Dr.

SPEAKER_02 31:48

Corbin but again that's so so many years ago but again you were touring gospel choir high school that was a class right you know I mean I remember I remember also this this this idea of you being welcoming when I came into the class and and I and I had to learn this because coming from college I was looking for things to be more structured but music is one of those places where people want and need to have free expression. That's right and I would see Debbie laying in the back singing but laying on the radiator or you know or or or Harry standing on this on the chair singing and shouting all you know but the excitement was crazy. There was some personality I tell you but that's but that's music like when I go into some band rooms it's like that it's like it looks like a zoo sometimes yeah yeah but it's it's it's just that free creative expression and and and you want to cultivate it you do want to formalize it but um but it's there you know it's it's and I that's something I noticed.

SPEAKER_01 33:00

Yeah and I I guess that's the kind of uh atmosphere they needed at that time um because um uh I they probably were hungering for you know something but they you you know I don't know I I know back to Kosperski I know he was teaching was he band or choir I think he was teaching choir was he yeah he was choir teacher he was pretty good I heard but um i I you know in those those in that setting I don't know what kind of structure you need to have and I didn't know either okay I was playing it by ear too right right right right you know so when Debbie's up in her you know chilling like I'm gonna let's let her do that yeah as long as she's singing I'm good exactly as long as they're singing I'm good I guess eventually we'll learn how to stand right because you won't be performing like that right so I'm gonna be patient and just wait.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

And I think you know for a lot of you know I also consider that a lot of um students even though you know we were we were doing well there's a lot of issues you know yeah uh you know that were going on and so I learned how to approach each student differently you know uh uh like I use uh I won't say the name but some personalities yeah yeah yeah absolutely and so uh as I learned that person and and because I could because they were talented so I wanted to you know work with them yeah yeah yeah and and and develop them and nurture right so like how am I gonna approach this student yeah because I want them you know to to to succeed yeah and you know and sing and learn how to sing well so um yeah uh there wasn't I mean as it went on and uh you know structure did happen you know but I gotta say that during the time that I started and time around the time you were there you know you guys um kind of were the model for the those folks who came along after you but after uh a lot of you had graduated like I think 97 okay was the year where you started to yeah so and it was like we've got a countdown now yeah this is not looking good and and the kids changed you know uh they they were different then and then uh even now you know when I was trying they were very different much different than you know when I was it yeah yeah when when so you but you had some amazing talent that came through there as well like oh man I never got to work with uh Dwayne Clark but he was one of the first in your choir and of course he gone on to work in Broadway I think he has a school so you know shout out to Dwayne um but he's a mean Ray Charles have you seen oh no I haven't seen it oh man I checked it out but I but but again I I just I heard from you like there was and not just you as a matter of fact he was associated with uh a family that I grew up with with the Rawls family in the and so you know I heard from them my brother was uh a student there he heard about him he's like yeah this guy's dope so you know again some amazing talent I mean you had members of the group six deep part of the choir who who had record deals and stuff like that so there's a lot of talent one one thing I actually loved about Irvington was because it was the only high school in in Irvington in that town all of the talent was in one place yeah like you didn't you didn't have to share it with another high school yeah all of those high school students were going to be there so um and and it was it was full of talent I mean you know you included you you just came along and I was like whoa I don't have to play piano no more this is great yeah come on man yeah so so you know and I was like you know I I don't I didn't mind right because what I was uh getting to earlier I had never been in front of a choir before to direct okay before that uh 1991 Bobby Jones yeah yeah yeah never okay so um uh that brought me out of my shell a little bit you know because um I was always behind the the keyboard so when you were coming along and playing I was like is he really gonna do this or but you I just remember one day you just pushed me off the keyboard like I it's all yours bro all yours and you're amazing man oh even more amazing today every time I hear like wow that's that's crazy how good you are listening I I I started you you gave me a first opportunity um formally in high school so I I like I said I can't and I was watching you I was you know okay I'm doing that let me let me pick that up yeah yeah so you know and and again I I I always gonna give you your flowers always because I know that that's where I started you know I'm saying and everybody knew that though like my mom was like you went farly again you know like every everybody like knew that that was like it because you you you made yourself uh available and I appreciate that yeah um the the the music thing the other thing is a lot of some people don't allow for that you know I'm saying like the opportunity for that's right like they would be like yeah no I'm gonna play you know yeah right and I'm gonna say that right you you definitely allow for that opportunity and and again some some things you need to like be hands-on with and some things you just need to open the opportunity yeah and again you did that um tell me what so now I followed in your footsteps by going to the same college that you went to and talk about Dr.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Corbin I want I want to just give her flowers I know she's not here anymore but um she kind of forced me to be ready for auditions because I was I was CE I wasn't thinking about no auditions but she was just like get in here after school and we're gonna just practice and I was just like all right well if the let least I got to do is just learn this song yeah I will come and learn the song and you know it was it was life changing you know she was just she was just thinking of the next things and just opening up those doors and listen every every audition we went to because we was in there controversial singing Margaret Bond's i2 sing America the likes to use and we were and she was saying like yeah you you about to be the black man coming in here singing to these white folks and we're gonna sing it in their face and you're gonna sound good and you're gonna confront them directly and listen they all were like amazing you know like so it it was it was great to and again I didn't know what the pride was of that as much as she did right but I know she was like yes and she was one time I even saw her tear like yeah yeah those those people were those people were like oh my gosh we need to go repent or something well we we didn't have a lot of that we didn't have like I I said like there was a lot of the uh uh urban schools that did not participate in the region I mean you experienced that could you got to all state and water and you saw that there wasn't a lot of us and so um uh we did especially uh Corbin because uh she understood and I understood I I wanted that to happen too and so we wanted to get us in there yeah yeah you know and so she pushed for that when she did the Essex Choral uh festival and uh we were able to see each other yeah yeah on stage and and doing that sort of thing helped the groups the choirs yeah you know oh we got you know we can yeah sound like that well exactly like oh that's a good song to do or you know um again I I met some dope musicians through just in that one time one one interaction right and got to see counterparts like okay okay I thought I was riffing but you over there riffing too and we both listening to Voice to Man or whatever go to see so it it was interesting to and and that's needed.

SPEAKER_02 40:58

You need that uh camaraderie that you know that healthy comp it it wasn't really competition but it's kind of healthy competition because it allows you to see what's out there and think okay I need to fix this or you know this I could be confident about and stuff like that.

SPEAKER_01 41:16

So I mean again thank you guys for all of that the the the the the McDonald's gospel fest I mean listen I I don't I don't I wouldn't have done it but because you were I know you were volunteering time I know that you were volunteering your time after school sometimes on the weekends to do these uh uh uh performances and you had a lot of support because you were getting buses you were getting you know all the things you needed the transportation and stuff like that's right we went all the way to Pennsylvania yeah to what Shippensburg right that's right yeah so we we there was a lot of rallying around it that again it it could be taken for granted not from you or I but just like in in in education that those things happen I mean football teams basketball teams sports teams they're gonna get that right but a gospel choir yeah right and and the frequency that you were getting calls I mean like how often were you getting calls and letters and stuff with all of the the uh performances we did there's just as many as I was turning down oh wow you know um I they were trying to teach me how to say no I was like it's hard like I mean you you tell me say no but uh it's the board of edit I was asking a board of ed member or this you know and I had some assemblyman or yeah Craig Stanley we did about 50 gigs today you know but uh uh I it was it was cool because when you uh uh uh allow yourself to to uh volunteer for these uh uh performances you you get a network of people absolutely who are supporting you and that was writ with the parents in the community uh some of the the teachers too you know but politicians politicians yeah you know and they that was your support I remember one time we uh had set up to go uh to a a school or somewhere and they didn't have a bus for us and um so I I went to the board of vet and the superintendent was there. Wow and um I was like yo we need a bus. He's like uh uh we didn't you you didn't schedule I forgot what had happened something had happened where there was no bus and so I was like can we get one he's like yeah because if I don't get one you're gonna tell the parents on me oh we got that kind of crazy well you had but remember think about it if your group had let's say 50 students that's potentially 50 to 100 people who probably vote this person in or out right to be honest with you yeah yeah they were very supportive community uh I mean I still recall a lot of the parents some of them who served on the board of Edge and who are very supportive of the group and would not let a Allow anybody to uh mess with them. Yeah. You know, uh, and that that was a great feeling for me, you know, because I I I and I appreciated the support. The only thing with with uh being at Irvington was um uh budget-wise, yeah, they couldn't support my program. Right, right, right. Because there's a lot of things that we could have, you know, technology and stuff, you know. They did buy a keyboard one time. Woo! You know, we got a keyboard. We got one keyboard.

SPEAKER_00 44:30

Oh, I love that keyboard now.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

That's how I learned how to produce music.

SPEAKER_00 44:34

Yeah, oh yeah, right.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

So again, thank you, Board of Ed, for that keyboard.

SPEAKER_00 44:38

Yeah, yeah, we appreciate that.

SPEAKER_02 44:39

And the robes, they got us ropes too. Like they were hooking us up. Yep, you know. And I mean, they they they did have things that you know you were seeing in other high schools, like they had piano, a piano lab. Yeah, you know, it wasn't surprising it wasn't crazy sophisticated, but it was a nice piano lab. Um, and you know, so definitely, and I always think about when I first came to Irvington, I want to say we had like four music teachers. Yeah, we like we did. Um compared to I mean, when I got to North Public Schools, they were like one band, one vocal. That's it. It doesn't matter how big the school is, whatever, you're gonna get one and one. And and that was the model. And then at some point they were cutting the budget and saying we're gonna have one or the other. You know what I mean? Which I think is crazy.

SPEAKER_01 45:28

In an urban community, that's crazy. That is crazy. You know, so um the the young lady who's at uh Weak Wake now, um, they cut the they cut the budget again? Uh well, I mean, prior to her coming there, there was no choir or anything. Right, right.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

You know, yeah, I was that's I was there when they cut it. That's why I learned.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

So I'm like, how do you cut a music program from you know?

SPEAKER_02 45:49

But what but so what I learned, I mean, you can tell me, I'm sorry, I don't want to cut you off, but what I learned is that um the charters really had an impact on the the population. You know what I mean? Because you had schools go from like, let's say, seven, eight hundred students down to 300, 300, 400, like half. Really, you know, because by the time I right before I left North Public Schools, the school's population, I was at Shabazz. The school population was very small. And I was like, this is a huge school. I mean, the school is huge, but the population was small. And part of the impact was from charters, because charters, they need people. They need and it, but it's not like it's different, it's new people, it's the same population. They basically take it from the same population of students. So let's say if there was, I mean, we had like at one point like 80,000 students, something crazy like that. But if it was 80,000 students, and now you introduce North Star, Kip, and then Robert Treat, and all of these uh charters, yeah, they're all taken from those same uh population of students. And so as they grow and expand and have go from one school to two schools to five schools to eight schools, all of that, it's almost like you're building another school district within that is taking those same students. So I do understand that that that was what happened, and so but every student represents a a budget item. You know what I'm saying? Like there's a cost that the state pays for each student. So um, I mean, we all off subject, but I mean, but I'm sure this is the impact of those programs. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. So absolutely um, what let's let's go back a little bit. What was the music program you came from, like that you were part of in high school? You talked about Brahms and the things that influenced you. How did you see a difference when you came there? Because you you actually was at two good programs, if I if I would say, because Irvington started out pretty robust um musically in their program, even though they didn't have support, I'm sure, by the end of your time there. Like when I came there, which was part of the time you were there, there was like at least four or five teams. There was an accompanist, there was like a lot of you know personnel there. Um how did that mirror what you had in high school? And then what what were you trying to bring there specifically when you came there?

SPEAKER_01 48:28

Well, uh, with um you're having uh uh well in high school, first of all, there was only one choir teacher. In your high school, okay. Um, but uh it's all about the numbers, yeah. Yeah. Uh and so um I I imagine that they weren't concerned about you know how they could support your program. As long as you had the numbers, that was all the main thing. Right, that was all that mattered to them. But as far as uh comparison, um way different from high school. It was my I went to Neptune and it was uh singing was very sophisticated for folks. Um and um we sang a uh uh high level of choral literature, you know. So um going to uh you know, I guess a decade later now I'm out of high school teaching at uh in Irvington. Um what am I teaching? Like, you know, I had to start with Stevie Wonder, you know, or something that they were familiar with. Just to get them singing. That that wasn't common, you know, uh in where where I was uh inquiry in high school. We started on Brahms and that's where we're gonna be. Yeah, you know, but but that culture was already built before before you got there.

SPEAKER_02 49:49

So it was. It it it I mean somebody had to start it probably, but you also look at where music was like uh culturally and that always is gonna influence always, you know.

SPEAKER_01 50:01

So then that's that's how I got them singing. I don't know what how we I don't know what I do remember um I wanted a men's group. And um because after hearing uh you guys in the region choir, I think you were in the Oh Shannon though, yeah. Oh man, I like that. I wanna wanna, yeah, that was cool. And I've been doing that song ever since. But um I remember um I'm getting off subject again, but I remember asking uh uh during the lunch period, you know, I put it in the announcements, I think, you know, for guys to come down and we learn some music. And a bunch of guys, big dude, Mick McDonald, remember? Oh, yeah, these guys came down.

SPEAKER_00 50:42

I said, yo, what you what what?

SPEAKER_01 50:44

You know, like you said you wanted some singers, right? Like, yeah, so um that was cool. But but I had to start with you know, stuff they were familiar with. I couldn't just start with, you know, uh Caro, me or banner, you know, you know. Uh but that's how I got them to, you know, uh open up and sing and you know, just kind of give of their talent, you know.

SPEAKER_02 51:11

Yeah, when I when I was teaching um Miss Price, Valerie Price from uh she went to Westminster also. Yeah, she had the the the best bass section in Newark Public Schools because we had like a choir that was put together with all of the uh schools, so I was a part of that, and her basses were standout. Like they they could sing the low notes, and like she always has some good basses, always. So shout out to Miss Price, yeah. But um, yeah, so let's let's talk now a little bit about um our alma mater, Westminster. Yeah, so what what how did you find Westminster? What made you end up?

SPEAKER_01 51:58

I was uh talking about Westminster the other day because uh again, speaking of the journey that you know you you go on, I auditioned for Westminster uh uh right before I graduated high school, got in, but again, this is going back to my father tricked us into going to the Navy. So uh I didn't really uh sorry, Mom. But uh so uh but we I went to the Navy. But when I got out, um I auditioned again later on, and um I made it in again, but I wasn't you know, I went I wasn't really feeling like going back, you know, to school. Uh and then I think you know, a couple people I talked to, like, please, please go back, go back, go back. And um and I realized like the time that I went to Westminster, because um even when I auditioned there the first time, I felt like this is where I needed to it resonated from what you were doing in high school, right? Yes, okay, gotcha. Yeah, yeah. And and I I was like, I never even knew a school like this existed. Like that.

SPEAKER_02 53:05

Right, because it's literally singing school. Yes, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:09

Did you it did you based on uh church music? Yeah, like okay, all right. So uh they didn't have a jubilee or choir. No, no, no, no, no, no. But um, but I I auditioned the second time I made it back and I was convinced to go back. And and I even I got when I went back, I realized, yep, this is definitely the place for me. Yeah. And um I I you know I have fond memories of uh Westminster. I met a lot of good friends there, um, had a lot of good teachers, learned a lot, you know, when you you just base everything on your ear and you don't really read a lot of the time, you realize I gotta put these two together. Yeah, because that's gonna make me the constant. That's gonna make you what you need to be, yeah. Musician, you know. I learned so much, yeah, you know. So yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:53

I was talking to another uh person on a podcast, and we were talking about how when you get out of school, you have to unpack all of the things you learned there. Like you're still like unpacking all like you get so much information in that short period of time, and then almost the rest of your life you're unpacking. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 54:12

That that's yeah, that's a true statement. Yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, yeah. And I and of course, I didn't learn everything I needed. You know, I'm I'm still learning, you know, but Westminster opened uh, you know, my mindset like music is like all constant, yeah. You know, you can keep learning and learning and learning. And so um I I appreciated that journey, you know, because it made me a more mindful musician. Yeah, you know.

SPEAKER_02 54:39

Not for sure. What um so you you've worked over what three decades with with with young people in music? Yeah. How important to you knowing what you know now, because you you have a wealth of history now with it, how important is formal education versus on-the-job training? Because some some musicians, and you got a part of that just going, I guess when you went to the Navy, although you had some formal school there, it wasn't four years of school. It was six months. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like basic training almost, right? Yeah. So so you had some training, but like you also got to do it on the job after that. So tell me what's the difference or or I guess contrast of being able to just be right into it. Because I know some some colleagues who just they didn't go to college, but they got into music and they just be made it a profession, versus also people who went to college, they got formal training. What what was the contrast to that? Because you kind of lived in both of those places.

SPEAKER_01 55:48

Yeah, I you know, there's some really good musicians out there, like you know, you would you think they had formal training, you know, but because they're so darn good. Just good, yeah, you know, and it's just just innately talented, you know. So, um, but I I still believe that, you know, uh there's as as much as talented as we are, as much, you know, uh the ability we have and inside of us to create music, education is just you know, there's like I'm saying about Westminster, I learned a lot that I would have never even considered. Yeah, you know, yeah. And and I know how to talk that talk absolutely if I have to, you know. I uh uh reinforce my ear, you you know. So I you know, I I I know that um you can learn on, you know, hands-on, that that's great, you know, but I think uh as far as the contrast, formal training is the way to go if you want to be, again, the consummate musician. Yeah. Because if you're you know want to stay in that field, you're working with other people out there, you know. I want to be able to be that musician who goes in the room and can read on site, yeah. You know, can can transpose on site, yeah, you know, and and uh whatever, you know, uh whatever I've been taught, you know, musically, you know, educationally, I want to be able to do that and be able to be that one, that person. Yeah, you know, like oh yeah, he's he's the consummate one.

SPEAKER_02 57:13

You know, he he and he he can he can talk to anybody. Yeah, yeah. That's I mean, that's always been the goal, I mean, for myself, like, you know, just just being able to communicate the the language properly. Like if I want to go talk to orchestra people, I could talk to you. If I want to talk to a uh a jazz band or a funk band, we could talk and nobody reads. We could talk, I could, I could talk you through it and I could lead you. One thing I I'm gonna just throw out here. I remember I I used to notice your charts in high school. I can bring that up. You were transcribing then. Yeah. Because you were putting the songs in the keys that made sense for the choir. Which again, you you but it was you had it. You had it written out. It wasn't like you were just like relying on your ear, which you could have done, but you had the skill set to say, okay, let me do this. And I mean, and to this day I do it. But just because it's just it's a formalized thing, and you only do how to do it one time. Right. Once you do it, it's like, okay, I have it right here. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 58:12

So exactly. As a matter of fact, that's how I I don't remember if I because you were the only keyboarders I knew there at Irvington at the time, but at West Orange, there's a lot of younger guys who were, you know, trying to play. And so I would say to them, look, if you really want to play, what I'm gonna do for you, I'm gonna show you chord progressions. I'm gonna write this out for you. One, four, five, six, whatever it was. Go home and practice this. And if you can practice this and get it down, then we we can you know we can work with that. Right. And I'll show you how to play those those progressions at every key.

SPEAKER_02 58:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 58:44

That's how you know.

SPEAKER_02 58:45

Yeah, that's that's the way. I mean, it's 12 keys. Yeah, you know what I mean. If you can get those down, you that's that's that's the part of the language that is universal. You know what I mean? Um what's what was one of your hardest uh uh experiences during that journey? It could be from through the navy, h college, um, teaching.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

That's a good question.

SPEAKER_02 59:11

What was the hardest?

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Yeah, what was like a just uh or something, just this is a challenge that you had to deal with. You know what? I'm not even gonna say it was anything musical. Although I will say the okay, when I switched from uh uh Irvington to West Orange, that was a whole nother world. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I had to learn to, you know, I couldn't be, you know, the person I was at Irvington. I already know what you're saying. But um uh um it wasn't even a difficult that that was the difficult part because then after that the kids were, you know, you could put anything in front of them. Yeah, like, oh, we're reading this. Yeah, it's good for us. So, but but it wasn't the it wasn't really the musical, it was the the, you know, and you probably I don't know, like charter versus public school, you can't get into your craft and you can't, you know, focus on prepare for this continent because there's a lot of other uh educational stuff behind that. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, and I want I want to put it out there, but you know what I mean. I'm like, you know, okay, you know, I can't get to this because you got me doing all these other things here. Right, right. That was the you know, the the hardest thing for me.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

There at the new school. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:27

They're in Irvington too. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. And that was a now, I think that was a challenge too, because at uh Irvington, you know, there were kids who could really sing that you wanted in the group, but they couldn't be in the group. They couldn't get in there because they had classes that they had to make up, you know, because they didn't, you know, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:46

I had I had to cut class my first year to be in the choir. Because um, I think I'll never forget. Uh what was the name? I feel like the teacher's name was Miss Stopka or something, but I it was a it was a I want to say an earth science class. Okay. Eighth period. Yeah. And I I would say, hey, I gotta go to the bathroom. And so now I gotta think of when kids gonna go to the bathroom all the time, what are they really doing? But I would go to the bathroom and I would be gone for like 15, 20 minutes because I would be in the basement for rehearsal. And I'd be like, let me catch one or two of the songs real quick and then I'll go back upstairs. But um, but again, like you couldn't keep me away. You know what I'm saying? Like, and and I know students in that time live there. Um, but you were saying that the challenge was even some kids get in the class. That's my challenge now. I mean, yeah, I have students who are incredibly talented, but the initiatives of the school, you know, our school is like the collegiate school, so it's literally focused on trying to get all the students into college and through to and through college, that's their motto. However, I also realize that kids have individual paths. Everybody's path is not college. Right. And even if their path is college, what are they gonna study? What are they interested in? Yeah, right. You know, what what options are you giving them? Are you saying it it gotta be academic? Right. Or are you allowing them to be a athlete too? You know what I mean? And I mean, we just lost our football team, so which is crazy, which which is an opportunity that's gonna be lost, you know, for some students. But again, so how do we bridge that gap? Because now, with that gone, let's say if a kid was, you know, musically inclined, but they not getting music at the regular basis that we had. Because I like I said, I always reflect on what we had. I think you we had music every period. Every period. You know what I mean? So it was accessible because we had three, four teachers at one point. Um, what how did you navigate that challenge of kids? I know you would probably pull some kids after school, stuff like that. So, but what were some of your ways to get around that?

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

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