What If Rest Is The Real Rescue

Burnout doesn’t always announce itself with a breakdown. Most of the time it shows up as a shorter fuse, a heavy chest on the drive home, and the sense that you can’t ever fully turn “off.” We’re Jason and Jeff, and we’ve both seen how quickly compassion fatigue can creep into the lives of pastors, EMTs, paramedics, and firefighters, especially when the job comes with long hours, constant need, and not enough margin.

We talk through what burnout looks like in real life: personality shifts, mood swings, irritability, and the way stress leaks into family life when you’ve spent all week staying “professional.” Jeff shares lessons from compassion fatigue training and first responder burnout, including how repeated calls, rising call volume, and constant hypervigilance can wire your brain for threat. Jason connects the same patterns to ministry burnout, where criticism and conflict stack up until even good feedback feels personal.

Then we get practical. We discuss using vacation time, scheduling mental health days, stepping away from the uniform, and finding safe people to talk to without being judged. We also explore the Sabbath principle as a true 24-hour disconnect, not as a rule, but as a lifeline, plus why prayer can help when you’re carrying weight you were never meant to hold alone. If this resonates, subscribe, share this with someone who serves others for a living, and leave a review so more burned-out helpers can find support.

Transcript

Welcome And Quick Recap

SPEAKER_00 0:00

All right. Good evening, everyone. This is episode two of Body and Soul. My name is Jason Klein, and I realize we're a little late getting the second one out, but Jeff's here too. Hello, everybody. So uh again, thank you so much for everyone who's downloaded our podcast so far. I realize we're only one episode in. Just so you know, we have at least 12 planned. So this is number two. So I hope you're you're planning on hanging on for the long ride. Uh and again, trying to get things done between the busyness of our lives and sometimes a challenge. Um, but obviously, you know, glad to be here, glad to be doing this. Uh so yeah, thanks for listening. Uh, hope you'll check it out. Give us some feedback. So let's just jump right in. I think last time we met, uh, we we just kind of went and did a kind of an overlay or an overview of kind of who we are, the things that we do. This is the first time you're listening to us. Again, my name is Jason. I'm a full-time uh pastor of church in phonology, West Virginia, and I'm a part-time first responder. Uh, so I have my EMT license, and I'm soon to be uh a firefighter if all goes well. And then obviously you got Jeff.

SPEAKER_02 1:20

So yeah, I'm here back again to bother everybody as usual. Um saying um 10,000 times, so get ready for that. Uh, but yeah, uh just a quick recap. Uh paramedic, been paramedic for uh almost 25 years, uh, and just excited to you know keep moving forward on this project.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Yeah.

Why Burnout Is Everywhere

SPEAKER_00 1:41

So the the topic for today is gonna be one that we both have experienced, um both in ministry on my end, and uh I think we see it a lot in first responders, especially you and conversations that we've had. Um, so just so everyone knows before we get in, the goal of this of this episode is really to talk about something that we've experienced firsthand. Uh, but really the goal is to try to further the conversation, right? So we're we're not looking to dump on people, or we're not looking to try to say that we have all the answers or the solutions to the problem. Um, instead, we're just we're talking about things we've experienced with the hope of encouraging more conversations to come out of it. Uh so the topic today, and it's one that seems to be prevalent everywhere, is the topic of burnout. Um burnout in the church world is is huge. Uh, the last number that I saw statistically, uh so someone graduating out of college, going into full-time ministry. So we're talking pastoral roles, leadership roles, ministry roles. Uh, the average grad college graduate makes it three years before they step out of ministry altogether. And like, like I'm not just talking about like they take a break, but like they make it three years and they never work in another church again. Um, so the idea of burnout in ministry is is is quite extraordinary. Uh there are I can tell you just from my personal experience, there are more church churches seeking for ministers uh currently than there are ministers who can fill those roles. And and so much of that is hard to even imagine. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like the the amount of jobs posted are astronomical compared to who's searching for it. And and so much of it is tied to there's I think there's a shift in culture. I think a lot of younger people are um they're finding other ways to do ministry, uh, but but like it's hard. It's hard right now to find churches that that you know aren't struggling to find a full-time minister somewhere. Um and that's also in the EMS world. I mean, first responders are and we we both work, you've been with Hillendale longer than me, but the volunteer department, it's it's struggling, you struggle to find people sometimes. So let's talk about what has been your experience with with with burnout uh and how do you see it affecting the the first responder side of the world?

Compassion Fatigue In EMS

SPEAKER_02 4:37

Um so there was a there was a a course that I taught uh when I was associated with the University of Pittsburgh, uh and you went through it. Uh the the compassion fatigue course. Yeah you know and it it focuses specifically on like first responder burnout, right? And it focuses on certain things like um repeat patients, right, for one. Um and then it focuses on the long hours, uh, you know, and and and call volumes. Um and it focuses on not only the physical time that you're like awake and moving, right? But it all also focuses on the mental health aspect of it as far as like um you know the anticipation or the anxiety of where the next call is gonna come in, right? We talked about that last time. Um, and then you have the the development of PTSD that may not necessarily be related to something to um that you saw, right? But it's one of those things that just the constant um when you're in walking around Walmart, right? Um 20 some years and a catch register beeps, right? 20 some years into your career, and and you know, it like heightens your senses, you know what I mean? To I think it's a Marvel, use a Marvel reference. I think it's a like a spidey sense.

SPEAKER_00 6:06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay. That is the right, that is the right comic book world, Jeff. I'm I'm impressed. I'm impressed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Uh yeah, but it is, it's kind of like a spidey sense. And like at some point in time, your your brain, you you start to filter that out, you know what I mean? But that in itself can start what I've seen younger into this, right? And and you have a lot of people nowadays that are not prolonged into this, you know. Same thing with ministry. Like you use you mentioned what, three average of three years? Three years, right? Three years. So, you know, I I mean I work with people now that are retiring after 35 years, right? But even even my 25 years, you know, that's unheard of. Um, the last statistics I looked at, the average was five years. Wow. Um, you know, that they're staying in it. And and, you know, to become a paramedic, it takes 18 to 24 months of your time, you know, and I mean ride time, uh, clinicals, classroom time, you know, and I mean 3,000 plus hours when you look at it. Um and it it just it it's it's demand, right? And it's becoming a less and less of an interest, I think, for people, you know, and statistically. And um I was just looking at some statistics to see, and it shows like the five years I was talking about, right? 76%.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

And like when I So for every hundred students, 76 of them will not continue into every after five years.

SPEAKER_02 7:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:53

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 7:53

Yeah. And it it it's just it and it's it's becoming harder and harder to, you know, find people that want to come into this job. And and um not to get into the the like politicy side of it, but there's some other things too.

Pay And The Multiple-Job Trap

SPEAKER_02 8:06

Like um, you know, when you look at when you look at what you make hourly, right? Or if you're on salary, okay, it's not a very high-paid profession, depending on where you are. So a lot of the times you have individuals that work in this profession, they have to work multiple jobs, you know. And when you are younger, you know, 18, 19, 20 years old, maybe not have a family, you can do that, you know. But as time in goes along, and and say you get married, say you have children, and you need to look at more financial stability, including like retirement, insurance, you know what I mean, um, all that kind of stuff. Like it there's a lot of people nowadays that when they look at this, they don't even consider that, you know. So I I have to wonder if part of that not being, I don't want to say it's not readily available because employers do make it available, right? But it's one of those things that I feel like sometimes it's not highlighted like it should be. And and you know, you get five, four or five years into this, and and you've worked a hundred plus hours a week at four different jobs just to make ends meet, and and that in itself can get old very quickly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:21

So again, it I think it goes back to and we we've talked about this before, but some of the similarities in in church in the church world is is the same. The burnout rate is is pretty close, it's pretty high. It but some of that has to do with um it's often a low-paying job. Um, most um there's a great website, and and and I'll I'll look it up. So I'll reference it now. I'm thinking about it, but when I remember what it is, I'll make sure to include it for you guys to look at. But there's a way you can look at church salaries, right? Just kind of average throughout the year. And I think the average senior pastor, so that's my role, um, makes about $45,000 a year, which when you think about it, isn't a lot. Considering the most of them have families, uh, most ministers are bivocational. That's something that's kind of always been there and it's becoming more important. And and I there's that's another topic for another day because there's some benefits to that, but uh most churches can't afford much more than that, right? You have smaller congregations. Uh the average church size in America today today is like 100 people. Like, I I know people like they see all these like big churches on TikTok and stuff. Listen, that's not us. Like most churches today are 100 or less. So you're limited on funds, you have aging buildings, aging congregations. You you might have new converts, you have new believers, and and they don't understand what giving is, right? So people, um, not just that, but they're they're struggling to make ends meet, right? So you low-income areas, so churches, church staff is underpaid. Most churches don't offer health care, so that's another concern, right? Especially if you have kids. So, like the the burnout, I and I think you kind of taught you hit that a little bit. It it's not just the job, it's the added stress of I don't have enough money, so now I've got to go work more to make more money. I don't have health insurance, and none of that is cheap. The older you get, the the worse it seems to get. And and you know, there's there's plenty of opportunities and assistance, but it's hard to come by, you know. I mean, so you're in a profession where you're underpaid, you're overworked, and to make end meets, you know, you're already tired, but to make ends meet, you have to work even more, you know. So, so again, though those things add to burnout, right? Um,

Repeat Calls And Constant Stress

SPEAKER_00 11:49

I think you talked about it the compassion fatigue, and and again, you and I did all this, started this because of the similarities. Like the the way you care about people in the church, that pastoral role, that shepherding role is the same thing. You are dealing with people in some of the worst moments of their lives, right? Family dies, um, someone's battling a disease, someone's financially struggling, uh, marriages are falling apart, kids are wandering away, and and so you're you're trying to navigate this, you're trying to help people, you're trying to encourage people, you're you're spending all of your time and energy trying to get people to understand that that really the answer is God, but but like it's for them, it's not because some of them don't even know where their next meal's coming from. And so you're you're constantly pouring of yourself and emptying of yourself, and and and so again, I think that that that leads to fatigue. I mean, it's the same thing with with patients. You know, you you might have 20, 30 calls a day, and where you're at, yeah. Yeah, right. So you you might be overly exhausted, overly tired, and and you still have to get up and show up and be your best self. And and and we've I know you and I have talked about this, like the hardest thing that I've I've experienced on the squad, like in mind, keep in mind I haven't done this very long, but a couple months ago we had a really bad car accident, like two in the morning. The weirdest thing to me was once we got the guy lifelighted, you went back, you cleaned up, and you waited for the next one. Like, there's no, you don't get to go around and think, oh man, that was a lot. I'm going home.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah, like there's no going on.

SPEAKER_00 13:44

That's not an option, right? You you've got to be there. And if you if you have like that's one call for me, but if you have multiple of those in a day and you can't go home, you can't disconnect, you can't unwind, right?

SPEAKER_02 13:59

I mean, no wonder people aren't looking to do this, like for the long run. And one of the biggest things on on the MS side of it is um like the one of the reasons that people get into it is the 24-hour shifts. You know what I mean? Because it's essentially you can you can work the equivalent, you know what I mean, three days of the week, right, in one turn. Um, which is which is uh which appeases used to appease quite a few people because it would allow you to have more time off, more time with your families, um, you know, and so on and so forth. But now, you know, you're you're you're getting to that point, like especially in our communities here, right? Um people are aging. Uh disease is is, I don't say disease, I guess, but illness is widespread. Um, so people are getting sicker, you know what I mean? And and people are getting sicker, call volumes are going up. Um, you know, you're seeing patients that uh uh, you know, one of the one of the things to kind of add to it, one of the things that we we've done before too was um I went through and took a community paramedic course. Um, and and one of the ideas behind it was to try to uh work more closely, like with the individuals at home, um, and do keep track and help them keep track of the simple things, right? Um monitor their vitals, right? Check their blood pressure once a week if they're supposed to, or um just make sure they're taking their medications every day, or uh even something as simple as like um you know if they have like meals on wheels, right? Make sure they're actually bringing it inside and not not just letting it outside, you know what I mean, and letting it go to rot. And um, you know, you come back to you talk about the compassion fatigue when the same person has called you at 3 30 in the morning nine times, and you're five days into the new month, that starts to weigh. You you you don't plan on it to, you know what I mean, and and you you do your best to to maintain your professionalism, like you said, right? Maintain that level of of of individualism and respect, but you do that this month, next month, or even the next week, you know what I mean? And you do that repetitively for for uh a length of time and and it it it starts to weigh very quickly on your mental health, um, on your physical health, you know. Um and it and it's just there again, it just it plays into just another puzzle piece, you know, of the of the big thousand piece box that's spilled all over the table.

SPEAKER_00 16:52

Well, I think even even you know, you said that you know people like those 24-hour shifts, but the problem is is you and I know multiple people who they don't just work one place. Right. They work multiple 24 hour shifts. Right. So they don't have that that time off that that it's designed for, right? Right. So like

Burnout Clues On The Job

SPEAKER_00 17:12

so so let's talk about so so burnout and mental health are are are so closely connected, and and listen, there's a huge mental health side of this, and and down the road, like we're gonna have a podcast to address that. I actually have someone who's lined up who's kind of a professional in that realm who can hopefully add some insight. Because I'm not a doctor, right? I'm not gonna act like I'm uh a psychiatrist, because take my advice, but don't take it loosely. But but let's talk about the idea of burnout. So when you want when you're going through the idea of the the compassion fatigue, what are some what are some indicators that someone might be entering into a season of burnout?

SPEAKER_02 17:57

Um so the the biggest one is going to be um development of like mood swings. Um or uh anger is is a big one, right? Um, or you might notice, like, say if your spouse comes home from work, right? And um say they're usually this bubbly person that that nothing has ever bothered them, you know, their entire life. You've been married for 20 years, you know what I mean? And and it it's it's literally been like picture perfect marriage, right? Um and then like you start to notice the little things, right? Um uh the change in personality, uh, the sudden mood swings, uh, the anger when they get home, um, increase in irritability uh is definitely a big one. Uh there may be something a little um, you know, that agitates them. It may be even something as simple as like maybe you're cooking dinner, okay, and the timer on the stove goes off, right? And it's that same almost same audible beep, right, that that we all become accustomed to when we get into this, right? When when you have an emergency. And um, you know, they they may find themselves becoming irritated or or yelling at you, and you are just kind of like, what did I do? Yeah. You know. Um on the job side, um, you know, some of the things that you might see um, like if you're their partner, especially if you're their steady partner, um, which it's probably gonna be more profound where you're gonna see like services that have individuals that work regularly together or are scheduled um uh like on 24-hour turns together. You know what I mean? So they work the same turns every week. They they, you know, they have each other's backs, they know how they work, so on and so forth, right? Um you're again, that irritability is gonna play in, but you may notice too that their patient care um is not like it used to be, you know, where you know, something if you get something as uh is and I and I I know it sometimes it can be referred to as differently, but it's like something for for you and I, just because we do it all the time. But I refer to it like as something as simple like a nausea vomiting call, you know what I mean? Like I I don't like being nauseous, you know what I mean? Um, so I like to make sure that if somebody tells me they're nauseous or feel like they're gonna vomit, like we have the capability as pre-hospital providers to fix that. That's that's you know, me, that's me caring for my patient, making sure that they're being taken care of, right? Um, but you may see things like if they're riding with an EMT, now all of a sudden they're putting the EMT in the back because this is the fourth person that's called today that's got nausea or vomiting. Or um, you know, you may see them become angry with the patient. So like they they are they become forceful in the aspect of, well, here's the sick bag, and just kind of like shove it at them, you know what I mean? Um, you know, stuff like that. Or um, you know, you may notice that that they use physical aggression sometimes, right? Um, not towards the patient, but like maybe when starting an IV. Maybe they've been the gentlest person and they've never, you know, caused, they never even so much as is bruised anybody, you know what I mean? But now they're they're irritated, right? They're they're experiencing that compassion fatigue or stepping into that realm of compassion fatigue. Um, and so in an essence, they've their light and their irritability shine through, you know what I mean? Um, and and they may not recognize now that, you know, when they're starting an IV on the patient, that they may be uh inflicting them. And it's not uh inflicting pain upon them by starting the IV, and it's not that it's an intentional thing, right? It's just one of those things. that that physicological or psychological change that occurs like in the brain um when when compassion fatigue and burnout not necessarily develops but starts to take over and come to the front instead of sitting in the back.

SPEAKER_00 22:16

Yeah

Burnout At Home In Ministry

SPEAKER_00 22:17

yeah so that that irritability is something that like like I've personally seen in my own life right and and and uh by the way my wife's name is Danny and and she is fantastic I've been married for almost 15 years this year together for almost 17 which is crazy but she's been with me through this journey of ministry and like one of the things that that I find hard that I find hard in ministry is you always have to have that the your face on right like when when someone comes up to you on a Sunday morning and you're trying to get ready to preach and they're complaining because uh well the music last week was too loud or someone messed up the slide or I don't like the communion or you know by the way that color of rug is stupid like why like like I don't right just you just to throw these are things that I've heard in my life and and again by the way if if you do go to a church somewhere I I'm gonna say this as lovingly as lovingly as I can on Sunday morning if you have a problem just just wait till Monday. It can wait till Monday I promise like unless it's a crisis it can wait till Monday but like you you're just you kind of smile and nod and you move on right but then you hear that all week you know every time you talk to someone every conversation is complaining about this or that and and you know and then I go home and my kids do one small thing and I'm like all of a sudden upset with them because I'm irritated. I'm not irritated at them I'm just irritated because I can't be irritated with the people that I want to be irritated with right right because again there's there's that level of of professionalism and and listen if you're if you work at a church I'm not saying anything you don't already understand. If you go to church maybe you've never thought about it that like your one problem your one complaint doesn't seem like a big deal once you realize that 30 other people have said something that week right so so you from a from a ministry standpoint like for me burnout it shows itself in two ways one I find myself irritated at home about things that I shouldn't be irritated about. I have three boys by the way not that they don't irritate me because I love them but they have their own set of things and sometimes they're crazy. But there are times when I'm irritated at them and it's not really at them. But then the other thing is I I get to a place where if I'm kind of in that stage of pre-burnout or if I feel like I'm overwhelmed or overworked that like every comment is way more personal than it should be. Like everything you say to me is like I feel like you're just you're like stabbing me in the back even if it's not true. But like my reaction again I think that's that that irritableness is I'm annoyed and so I'm tired I'm overworked I'm exhausted so every critique is like I don't want to hear it. Yeah like even if it's a good critique like I it like it's it's almost kind of shrouded in this like negative light right and then so I think that that's that's one of the things like with with burnout that that you struggle with is because if we're honest we know when it's there some of us just we don't talk about it right we we chalk it up to you know rub some dirt on a kid you'll be fine or it'll be better tomorrow or um you know you just had a bad day but but how many times can you say I had a bad day before you realize that maybe there's there's a bigger situation going on.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Yeah it's it's like a collection you know what I mean yeah like it you can you can continue to you can continue to put it in your pocket right but the threads on your pocket are only so so have so much viability right or durability and it's only going to stretch so far. And eventually you're gonna get a hole in your pocket right and everything's gonna pour out the bottom but it's not gone because the only thing it's done is rolled out onto something else. Yeah. You know so if you keep storing it and don't have some sort of way to vent or or talk about it. You know what I mean? And and sometimes like you need to have um conversations that to other people that don't do this and I I would think the same thing for this would go for ministry too you just need to have a conversation where you can let it out unjudgmentally you know what I mean to someone that is just going to let you talk interject you know what I mean but let you talk and not not be judgmental of what's happening because there are certain things that are in my head for years of doing this I I don't want you to know about those. Yeah. You know what I mean? I I don't want you to have been exposed to that or experience that but at the same time the seams on my pocket are gonna burst. Yeah. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 27:57

So

The Need For Safe Conversations

SPEAKER_00 27:58

and and I think that's I think it's a good transition right to to where we're headed because the the conversation of burnout is we know it's there. If you pay attention you can recognize it pretty quick on people. It's not it's not hard right and I think we used to just chalk it up we used to chalk it up because that's just who they are but when someone has a a definite shift in the way they operate the way they think I think you said patient care right uh the way a pastor preaches the way a pastor might lead the way he might shepherds people like there's definitely this this kind of a this light bulb moment where you're like you know something's not quite right with what's going on. And I think what you just said is huge because so when I was going through the the critical incident stress management training right that I've been going through and that's something that I'm going to continue to do. Like one of the things that kind of stood out to me that I thought was interesting was um almost all conflict and all concerns and all debriefing situations can be resolved with a simple conversation right a lot of times people just need to talk about what's going on. They need to kind of vent they need they need someone who's gonna listen and try to understand them. I know Danny and I would talk about this like in our marriage sometimes like because my brain the way my brain works like there are times in our marriage when I will say to her listen I don't mean what I'm about to say but I need to say it because if I don't get this out of my head it's gonna hang on and it's just gonna rattle around inside my brain and this one minute conversation is going to blow up and turn into this thing that I don't want it to be. Right. So so essentially what I'm asking my wife for is safe space right safe space to have this conversation and and and we've we've allowed that for each other and I think it's been a healthy thing. But like when you talk about in this line of profession both sides of it right you've got to have safe people that you can talk to you know other first responders other um ministers I know you and I have tons of conversations listen you and I have tons of conversations that people will never hear on something like this because they don't need to right right it's none of their business you and I can understand and but but there's something about having someone that you can just sit down with who understands where you're coming from and I think that that's that's the heart behind what what started this idea of a podcast is is we just want to genuinely have conversations about things that we experience because I know there are other people out there. There are people who are listening to this right now that are going oh yeah that makes sense yeah like someone for the first time might have just been able to put words to something that they've been feeling right because they don't understand the physical emotion. Yeah yeah right and and again when when you're told you just sit down suck it up buttercup rub some dirt on like those those are such unhealthy approaches it doesn't work anymore.

SPEAKER_02 31:14

It doesn't it it it never I was I would venture say it never worked yeah right I mean you ended up with a generation of angry people yeah you know and and so like it's one of those things that it's such an important conversation to to not only understand that burnout

Vacation Days And Mental Timeouts

SPEAKER_02 31:30

is it it happens and it's happening sooner than later you know so when when you were looking at you talking about this compassion fatigue what are what were some suggestions or ideas for listen how how do you how do you kind of curve this how do you how do you address it health in a healthy way how do you deal with it so that it doesn't continue to to eat at you and just progressively get worse and and and I'm gonna say this and and I know when people hear this they're probably gonna laugh because there are some people that are going to understand it completely and then there's some other people that they're gonna be confused. But it's it's one of the biggest things especially in pre-hospital care if your employer gives you vacation time use it. Yeah I mean it's that simple like it it it's you gotta walk away you know and I'm guilty of it um just as anybody else is you know what I mean and and if you don't find some way somehow um to walk away from it and just kind of like check out a little bit and and give yourself a uh what I refer to as like a uh a a mental timeout or or you know a mental health day you know like I I'm I give myself a couple mental health days a month and it's just because there are days that I feel overwhelmed. I I come off shift or you know what I mean um and and so that's that's what I do and and I walk away from things I uh you know the radio's turned off I'm not I'm not listening to anything um and at first I thought to myself oh crap like I can't do this you know what I mean but not having the radio on for one day or not having the pager on for one day or um surrounding yourself with family right or um just just anything that is not in pertaining or focuses on this part of the the the the career itself something completely different. Like my last mental health day that I you know I took um we drove up and went to a bakery over like for about an hour and a half from here you know what I mean just to get out of here out of the area away from everybody we knew something completely different sure you can get baked goods anywhere but there's a difference between going to your bakery that you go to all the time that not only do you go to all the time but you also go to maybe while you're on shift. So there's still an association there. Right right you know what I mean like you go get your your morning coffee and and a donut maybe or something you know what I mean yeah no we're not police officers but we eat donuts too we do we like donuts um but you just you go somewhere completely different and and you have to have that at minimum I feel that 24 hours of of like disassociation from everything and and you know the days that that I come over to your house right and and I watch the kids for two or three hours or whatever. You know what I mean? That's gold to me. Yeah it's so well behaved for you well yeah oh man but I mean that in itself is gold to me because it it's it's a complete even though they're fascinated with it yeah right it's still a complete disassociation. Like the other day when I was there um we played duplo box for a couple hours you know what I mean and yeah we build a fire station yeah we build a police station we build a monster truck yeah ever can't wait to turn 14 and become a junior firefighter I know that's all he keeps talking about is his anchoring for it. But just spending time away from the radio away from the 3 a.m calls away from um that realm of the world even just for 24 hours is is is gold. Yeah and the other thing again it's gonna be the same application right some people probably gonna laugh some people aren't going to understand it wear civilian clothes get out of the uniform take it off put it away put it in the closet have it gone for the whole time that you while you're on vacation whatever put it away you need that complete disassociation because if not I feel like there's enough reminders there anyway of everything and and when you're trying to disassociate and you you walk in the room and and there hangs a uniform shirt or there hangs a uniform jacket or there's your boots thrown on the floor or I don't know maybe you come in in a hurry and and and drop your pants at the basement door because you're gonna wash everything and you went upstairs and got a shower right put all that away yeah like completely 100% separate yourself and just take that time to yourself and and again it may not work for everybody but for me excuse me those those are the best things that I can do to just give myself that that that window of of clarity and like that that timeout that I need. Yeah.

Sabbath Rest And Stepping Back

SPEAKER_00 37:17

So I love it because the the 24 hour uh it was actually a theological basis for that right and so God created everything in six days and on the seventh day he rested what a profound thought that God rested right yeah and and the wisdom of my my seven year old is why would God rest he's not tired but you're right he's not right he's he's God he he doesn't need to rest yeah but but God took a day to step back look at what he had done enjoyed his creation and and and not only that but but he teaches us one of the Ten Commandments is is to keep the Sabbath holy right to that 24 hour day what whatever a Sabbath is there's there's something about taking time to disconnect to uh to to spend time in you know maybe it's prayer to spend time hanging out with family to just to spend time doing anything but right and and one of the I think one of the most challenging things of uh burnout is people don't know how to take a Sabbath they don't know how to rest they because we live in a culture that you know our kids are getting into sports now and you know it feels like it's every day right you know you you just kind of jump one into the next but but so much of that is I think it it's it it it has to be like you almost have to you have to schedule in that time and and protect that time because again the I there's a biblical concept that the idea of a Sabbath is this 24 hour period of rest. God created you and I to not run full steam seven days a week. Seven days a week we're not supposed to be right we're we're supposed to sit and enjoy and and live life and and and learn how to rest right and and these are such important things and I think about it a lot of ministers they go on sabbaticals and things like that and like I'm excited because I've never been on a full sabbatical but um you know Easter is a big time of year for churches. I mean there's a lot going on I feel like once you get from Christmas to Easter it's like a sprint and then you get in the summer which is even crazier this year Easter falls on April 5th the last three Sundays of April I'm not preaching. I'm not even gonna be on the worship team I I went to our leaders last week and said hey listen I think I just need a couple weeks where I need to sit here and I need to worship with my church family. I'm just gonna I'm not I'm not leaving I'm still gonna be here but like I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna sit and I'm gonna worship and I'm gonna remove myself out of any kind of leadership role for those three Sundays because I need it. Yeah my brain you know I I love what I do I've been at this church for four years now been four incredible years incredible growth we've seen so many things happen but I just I want to take a couple Sundays and just worship and I'm not I'm not gonna worry about sermon prep for three weeks I'm gonna like work about my own spiritual life like I'm not gonna worry about the music for those three weeks like I'm literally just going to be focused on oh I'm here I'm resting I'm finding time to to to to kind of let my mind settle because again I think that something we don't do well as a society is we don't rest. We don't know how to take a break and I think what you said earlier is huge. You're afraid if you turn off the scanner you're gonna miss something right something's not or someone's gonna need me. And and I think part of that the same way in ministry but but part of that Sabbath that God calls us to is that that's a lot of faith like that God will still take care of those things even if it's not through you. Right. And I think it's I think the same thing in in the the first responder side it'll find a way you know the to quote Jeff Goldblum from Jurassic Park life will find a way right I mean it does like things will find a way to work out but if you don't learn how to take that rest if you don't learn how to take that break then you're gonna be again five years in and then you're done. And

Identity Hats And Prayer

SPEAKER_00 41:57

then we've lost 20 years of experience 20 years of opportunities that make a difference because we didn't learn how to rest early on you know but well I think we're about done getting close to the end of this uh did you have any final thoughts you want to share for this uh week's episode or the second episode second not this week's episode but I I was just sitting here thinking about something and and you know when we while we talk and um like sometimes I wonder like if I have like a little bit of like ADHD or something oh I know that I do like my mind just kind of like constantly runs.

SPEAKER_02 42:34

I know that I do. And like it's it's weird because sometimes I feel like I'm listening to you talk and like we're you know I'm locked into our conversation but at the same time there's like this little part of me.

SPEAKER_00 42:46

You know I I I perform this podcast all day today. Yeah like I I think I was just sitting around just talking in my head yeah like going over like so I I get it I get it.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

There's somewhere like in my in my frontal lobe that you know I feel like it's from that what's that movie from Disney uh inside out oh yeah yeah like the the uh I forget her name but she's like in there like flicking me in like the you know one of the synapsies saying hey don't forget me you know what I mean like I know you're listening but pay attention to me too you know but um you know for for any of the the hockey fans that are out there um you you're you're the situation in itself for you is special right yeah and so we talk about compassion of a tea we talk about burnout you pull a hat trick I don't I don't know if you ever kind of thought about it like that but it's probably gonna stress me out now that I am thinking about it let's continue but no you do you you you know you pull a hat trick and you know you talk about having somebody to talk to, right? When I talk to you, right? Which hat do you put on? Do you put on the hat being my pastor? Do you put on the hat being my fellow first responder? Yeah. Right? Or probably more importantly, not that any of the other two aren't important, right? Do you put on the hat being my brother? Yeah. You know? Or in a certain situation is there a circumstance where the only way it's gonna alleviate itself is if you find a way to wear all three at the same time.

SPEAKER_01 44:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 44:44

You know what I mean? So y your situation in itself I feel like is is is unique too because you know how long is it is it good for you mentally all that burden and and and and bear all that weight. You know what I mean? And I know a lot of the things that you always tell me is burden that we deal with right it's never more than we're going to be able to handle.

SPEAKER_01 45:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 45:20

And and and more times than not like and I that's something I learned from you I think one of the biggest things is in this when I was baptized right yeah um that day I was your brother by the way yeah yeah yeah so that day I was your brother you know they talk about how how lifting it up right and and just taking it off your shoulders and giving it away right that's another thing that I've found that has been fit been beneficial to me. Yeah you know what I mean on those days that that it's a mental health day like just get up in the morning take five seconds and say like a morning prayer you know yeah or in the moment where something is going on you know and if you don't want to do it in front of people that's okay too like it's it it sh it it's not a bad thing. You know what I mean? But there I know there are people that are private about it and that's fine. But it helps. It helps in in these bad situations. It helps where you get you know maybe you've had a bad call and and there's just somebody in that moment that you need to talk to and maybe you don't have access to to your normal person. You know what I mean? Just pray about it. Yeah and and and it it works it it makes you feel better and it just kind of like you know it it takes it off your mind. And it may not alleviate the problem you know it's maybe something they should have to address down the road or whatever but it it definitely like alleviates that that moment of just uh oh you know what I mean like you're in that moment of like what do we do now or you know you spent time with us or you know you're kind of feeling not right and and just just pray about it and give it away and and and you know let God take it and and and I think that's one of the most important lessons I've learned from you. You know what I mean? So and again it comes back to my whole hat trick comment you know I mean because in what aspect or in that moment what hat do you have on?

SPEAKER_00 47:37

Yeah you know the funny thing is I think that you actually gave I'm gonna give you the most suddenly school answer I think I've ever given anybody okay the answer to how I do it is God. Yeah I mean that's it. Jesus says himself you know come to me those who are weary and and in need of rest those who are burdened and come to me and I will give you rest right um so much of of what I do is only accomplished because God is so much bigger than I am. Yeah like in like where I find myself struggling is when I forget to give it to him you know when I feel like I like you know that it's a it's a crazy thing because realistically like I know I'm not Jesus like I get that but like the the burden to want to save everyone is real.

SPEAKER_01 48:32

Right.

SPEAKER_00 48:32

Like that I I don't I couldn't do ministry if that wasn't my motivation to to save the world. I mean that like I I I want I I I mean it wholeheartedly when I say the only thing that I ask God for when I die is I just want to see all the people that found him because of me. Because like that to me will make my life worth it. Like that's what I've accomplished right like that that is a burden that I will bear do I die because it's weighty right but I think the answer is it's it's it's God. That's the only answer. That's

Reach Out And Final Takeaways

SPEAKER_00 49:15

the only thing that makes sense to me um hey Jeff thanks again man I love doing this I love these conversations and for those of you who are listening uh listen don't don't be afraid to reach out we'd love to connect maybe maybe you have a support system maybe you don't we'd love to to connect with you and help you find one if that's you're looking for and and sometimes you just need someone to talk to and and we've both been at this long enough that we realize that a lot of times a a good conversation is you know it's good for the soul man will take yeah so yeah thanks for listening uh look forward to our next episode will hopefully be much sooner than six weeks out uh yeah apologies for that yeah life's a little life's a little crazy but uh praying for you all praying that God continues to to use this and uh and again maybe give some people some answers to some things they're trying to figure out so you have just a different way to think about it. Yeah yeah so have a good night and uh we'll see you guys next time we meet take care everybody