Episode Four: Tools to Overcome Fawn & Freeze

In this episode we normalize the stress responses fawn and freeze and talk about gentle strategies to move through them. 

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Welcome to Means to Ascend, a podcast for people who care deeply about how they grow, how they lead, and how they show up for others. Here we explore self-help, career growth, job transitions, and leadership through the lens of empathy, compassion, and progress over perfection. We believe the most impactful leaders aren't flawless. They're human, self-aware, and committed to learning. So wherever you are on your journey, thank you so much for sharing space with us. Let's get into it. My name is Lindsay Amiko, and I am here again with Lindsay Zajak. And today we're going off of talking about the fawn response and the freeze response in terms of our nervous system responses. So if you don't know what I mean by that, I recommend going back to episode three. We talked all about how our nervous system tends to uh regulate itself, how to not regulate itself, how to be triggered by different things, and how this can really impact our leadership style. Because when we are overstimulated, when we're in fight or flight, we're not going to be the best version of ourselves. So I would recommend going to that so you can deeper understand freeze, fawn, fight, and flight. Um, today we're gonna be talking in more depth about the fawn response, which you can really think of as the people-pleasing response. Um, it's not, it's very gender neutral. So this does not mean men or women. This can happen to absolutely anyone. And probably honestly happens to you at work, maybe even daily. And also the freeze response, which tends to happen when our energy runs out, when we can't give any more, when we're completely depleted.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Yes. Yep. And as Lindsay mentioned too, these ones are less commonly talked about. I mean, I think we all kind of grow up learning about fight and flight. Um, those ones are kind of in our radar. We think about them all the time. They're in our, you know, lexicon, they're all everywhere. But I didn't really know about fawn until a few years ago. Um, and that was a huge light bulb moment for me, having been a, you know, a recovering people pleaser. Yep. Um, and in the freeze too, Lindsay and I were just saying before we we got on this podcast that the state of kind of the world we live in, with all the stress that we're under, with all of the kind of negativity and just chaos, um, we're seeing a lot more of the freeze response in people because they're just they don't have any fight left, they don't know where to flee to, they're just kind of like numb or um maybe a little bit apathetic, or you know, shutting their systems down, kind of like hibernating, isolating. So those are some things that we think are um top of mind for people right now.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

Yeah, it's essentially like, and we've all been there, but essentially, you know, let's say for weeks on end you've been running around, you've been showing up for everyone, you've been taking care of everyone, you've been, you know, maybe waking up at 6 a.m. and going to bed at like midnight and whatever that is for you. It's gonna look different for everyone. We all have different capacities, we all have different things we're experiencing, but then you have nothing left, and your body essentially goes into dorsal vagal shutdown. And it's almost like this sounds very depressing, but it's almost like death, if that makes sense. It's almost like I have nothing to give, and I'm going into a state of like ready to die. That's what the biological part of it is. Yeah, like your body has given so much energy that it's just like done. And that's why you kind of feel the numbness, the potential depression, the doom scrolling. And it's very important, of course, to always speak to your doctor about all of this, to consult with a medical professional, to ask for help. But I do just want to normalize the response a little bit because I like as Lindsay said, I think we can all relate to that feeling of my brain is done. I have no response left. I'm gonna stare blankly at the TV at night and shut down because that's what my body is telling me I need to do. There's no other option.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

Yeah. And and you're right. And I'm just looking back to what you you discussed in our last episode. When you're still in that fight or flight response, you're still in this mindset of like, I can do something to fix this, like a sense of agency. There's something I can be doing or fighting for to make it better. And then when you get to that freeze response, you're you're kind of giving up in a sense. You're almost like, it's not, it's not worth it. I'm I'm overwhelmed. I can't make a difference. Nothing I do is making a difference. So you kind of like your body only you try to conserve energy, it's shutting down systems that maybe aren't as necessary, you know, to keep you in this just um very calm, kind of like baseline survival.

SPEAKER_02 5:41

Yeah, right. Oh, I saw five news articles today that were terrible. So I'm in a state of apathy now. Um, and then what happens too is oftentimes we're kind of shifting, unfortunately, between fight, flight, fawn, which is that sympathetic, like activated state, and then back to freeze because we're so used to I need to be in fight, fight, fight, flight, flight, flight. This is my normal state. And then my body goes into freeze because I have nothing left to give. So maybe I get sick, or you know, maybe I get into the space at night, and then I go back into fight or flight because I gotta do what my boss says. I gotta make sure I pick up my kid from daycare, so on and so forth. And so where we really want to start to move into is okay, I am present. Okay, I am safe. Okay, I am joyful, finding space for um the things we enjoy, the gratitude. That is how we were designed to function. But it can be very difficult to come to that place because of our society and everything that's being asked of us. So the intention today, you know, the last episode we talked about this in great depth, but our intention today is more like, okay, we're starting to maybe recognize these states of activation that we might be in. How do I move through those? What are the actual tools that I can use day in and day out instead of just recognizing, oh, I'm in freeze right now, which is a huge first step.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

Yeah, uh exactly. Like you said, the first step is honestly self-awareness and kind of evaluating which one resonates with me. Can I see myself in these different states? Um, you know, I think we've we've both, Lindsay and I both have done the fawn over and over. We we struggle with that one for sure. I definitely didn't remember freeze as much for my go-to state, but I maybe that's what my hibernation mode has been. Maybe there's a little bit of that mixed in. Maybe it's not just it's been a brutal winter, it's frigid, it's cold, I want to stay home, I don't want to do anything. Maybe there's a little bit of that. I don't have the energy to go do anything right now. So yeah, self-awareness is key.

SPEAKER_02 8:13

Self-awareness is key, connection is key, you know, leaning on our support systems. We can all relate to a lot of these things in so many ways. Um, so we said last time, fun response, people pleasing, fear of saying no. You know, maybe your manager is putting a lot of deadlines on you and you don't feel comfortable setting boundaries. Maybe we're in family settings or friend settings where we don't feel comfortable saying no, setting boundaries. I actually don't want to go to this event. Um, I want to be there for people, but I'm constantly being there for other people instead of finding ways to support myself, put myself first, which many of us, not just women, but of course, you know, I think in the traditional context of how women are typically brought up, we are taught to take care of everyone else. We're not taught to say no, we're not taught to set boundaries, we're pretty much taught that's selfish if you do that.

SPEAKER_00 9:16

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 9:18

So at work, overaccommodating others, avoiding conflict, perhaps not voicing our opinion as much as we would like to. We're perhaps very agreeable. Um, we have difficulty setting boundaries, and we often may seek approval. And then think about it, you know, when you're in fight or flight or fawn, you're very activated. So you're trying to seek a space of safety. And so this fawn response has been a really big protection mechanism for many of us throughout our lives because of course you want to show up as a good employee at work. It's your stability, it's your safety, it's your financial security, it's what we were taught to do. So, what happens if I start to say no? What happens if I say, hey, I can't get this done in time? That can be very scary.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

Yeah, and I think to your point, it feels unsafe to do so. It's not as simple because people have told me in my past, like, you're so nice, you try to be so nice to everyone. Like, why are you so and it's like I didn't even, it's not really a choice. Or I until it became in my awareness, I didn't know I was acting any certain way. I was just being myself. And then, you know, with age and time and maturity, you start to realize, well, I really don't like conflict, and I really do avoid it at all costs, and I don't like delivering tough news, and I don't like giving negative feedback, and saying no feels very unsafe in my body. And those are all valid and real, but there's still ways we can move through that. Um, and I'm I know you're gonna talk about that more today, but it's not always as simple as like, well, just say no, you know, just set a boundary. It's because this is again something that someone has probably developed since they were young, a child, and it feels very scary to all of a sudden shift gears.

SPEAKER_02 11:18

Yes, absolutely. We found safety, we've perhaps found our identity in this. When people are happy with us, it makes us feel really good. If someone happens to be unhappy or we can't read them, the brain might shift into rumination or spiraling. And we're thinking about, oh my goodness, did I send the wrong email? Did I miss a deadline? What do they really think about me? And I promise it is we are capable of healing this response. And it doesn't mean it's never going to come up again, but we can begin to recognize it more and really shift into, I noticed this coming up. Could I choose again? What might be, you know, an adjacent behavior or a little bit of a different behavior than I've chosen before? It doesn't need to be night and day. It can be what feels a little more like I'm advocating for myself versus constantly putting other people first.

SPEAKER_00 12:25

Exactly. And I think what's helped me a lot too is, you know, I know everyone's heard about let them, and it was all all the rage last year. And, you know, I read the book and I listened to Mel Robbins' podcast. I love her stuff. But honestly, for me, it was also if someone is upset by a decision I make, or by me saying no, or by me setting a boundary, um, or just disappointing someone, like I don't own their emotional reaction. It might feel like I do, but I I am not in charge or I can't control how someone reacts emotionally to what I do and say. All I can control is, you know, my intentions, you know, what I say, what I do, my actions. But if somebody's upset with me, like that's their emotion to own, not mine. And I think that has kind of been a healthy um dissonance from what I used to think, you know, like, oh, if I make this change at work and you know, roll out this thing, so-and-so's gonna be upset, so-and-so's not gonna like it, you know. So you're thinking about all of these things through the lens of like, how are they gonna react? Well, I need to make the best choice for me and the company, and it might might not please everybody, but that's okay. I don't, I'm not in charge or in control of their reactions.

SPEAKER_02 13:46

Absolutely. So, truly wherever we are today, have compassion for ourselves. The intention is not to change everything overnight. Maybe you relate to all of this to a T, and you're just in a space of awareness. You're just in a space of, I'm learning a little more about this. Maybe I read the let them theory. Maybe I listen to this podcast, I begin to notice where my body feels very unsafe or rigid when things come up, when I don't feel comfortable saying no, and remembering this is a long-term stress response, probably from childhood. All of these responses are protection and emotional self-regulation. We once again don't have to change them overnight. It's more of maybe I get into the fawn response for a little bit or a day, or it comes up in certain situations, but then I can catch it and then I can shift to something that feels a little better. So we're gonna go really slow with this. This episode, like I said, talks about fawn and freeze. You might want to focus on one of the responses that feels like one of your bigger responses. So I wouldn't say, okay, I'm fixing all four right now and I'm never gonna be activated again because that's just not true. And honestly, it's our nervous system acting in the way it's supposed to act. So that's the good news is we're not constantly supposed to be in a state of presence. It's just truly we're we're kind of designed to be there much of the time. So the goal is maybe how do I shift more into that more regularly? But we're gonna go slow. And what I would recommend is choosing one thing to begin to implement, doing it maybe for two weeks. And I want you to aim for like a 30% or I'm sorry, an 80% success rate. So let's say I'm gonna share next. Okay, some general nervous system regulation tips here. Allocate time for no technology. So maybe this is the one that you're like, this feels good to start to focus on. I'm gonna start to read at night instead of scrolling on my phone. And what that would mean is let's set a goal for the next two weeks that feels manageable, and then doing that to aim for like an 80% success rate. So we're not like this needs to be absolutely perfect.

SPEAKER_00 16:23

Yeah, I I've definitely been reading more at night, and I I like the idea of giving yourself almost like an hour if you can, or 30 minutes of like wind down time, you know, so you're not going from what binge watching a show on Netflix or scrolling on your phone and then trying to go right to sleep. Um, but I also think that time, it's like your body, it helps me fall asleep so much better when I'm like laying in bed, reading a book. All of a sudden you're like two pages in and you're just zoning out because you're in that such that calm state. And it's probably the calmest you've been all day.

SPEAKER_02 16:58

And the blue light isn't there. You know, it's it's so good. So, okay, no technology, which we'll talk about a little more with the freeze response, getting sunlight, which of course is tricky at this time of year, but truly, even getting outside right now, even if you feel like there's no sun, can be extremely beneficial. Vitamin D, fresh air, looking at nature, all that good stuff. And then, of course, sleep. So having a more set sleep schedule can be very helpful for nervous system regulation. So maybe we have a bedtime of 11 and we get up at seven. This is gonna be different for everyone. You know, it is shown that women need more sleep than men. We're gonna have different cycles, we're gonna have different hormonal responses. So, do what is best for you. This could be a little bit of a curiosity of like what works best for me and what do I notice? Okay, I'm watching TV until midnight, and then I lay down to go to sleep and I'm totally wired and I'm not gonna fall asleep. So maybe that is the focus. This is completely up to you. So, in terms of fawn response regulation, we want to bring in some self-awareness here and ask ourselves what are some of our personal cues that I'm prioritizing others at my own expense? So, one of these for me is if I'm overthinking, if I'm thinking, okay, well, should I do this or should I do that? Well, this person said I should do this. Well, they might be upset if I don't show up and I really should show up for them. They need me. When you start to get into overthinking, of course, very practiced response for me. I start to say, Oh, okay, I'm activated right now. I'm a little anxious about this. I'm trying to figure it out. I'm probably getting into my fawn response. So this could be a cue of I gotta journal, I gotta meditate, I gotta slow down. Maybe if I'm overthinking it, I just have to go in the direction of making the decision that feels best for me and then putting an end to it because overthinking likely isn't going to help the situation. It's pretty maladaptive at this point. Yeah, I'm tense. Maybe I'm like my whole body is like super tense at the thought of saying no. That could be an indication of a fun response. Maybe my heart rate goes up because I see an email response from someone that is a little more triggering for me. Maybe they're a little more dominant. Maybe we've had, you know, uh a conflict in the past. So my perception is skewed of their reaction. So you know, will I feel drained if I say yes? That's another great question.

SPEAKER_00 20:07

Am I saying yes out of obligation or fear instead of because it's aligned, it feels right, it's what I'm actually choosing to do. You know, there's a lot of the like, I should say yes, but I don't really want to say yes, you know.

SPEAKER_02 20:22

So if the should is coming up, that's a huge kind of red or orange flag. I should say yes to this. Okay, wait a second.

SPEAKER_00 20:30

Where is that? Yep, where's that coming from? Or for me, it's a lot of like, oh my gosh, this person is gonna be so disappointed. Like, perfect example. I got my, you know, sick in bed, can't move type sickness early in this month, early in February. Came on out of nowhere, you know, out for the count. So wasn't a big deal because I work from home on Thursdays. I let my, you know, I let Jen know, I let some team members know, not a big deal. But that afternoon, I'm supposed to go down to UB and be like a mentor reactor for someone in the core program. I cannot cancel last minute. Like now, again, this is the the script I'm telling myself. You can't cancel on this person. Literally, no, cannot like there is no, there is no choice but to go. Like, you're one of five panelists, you can't cancel last minute. They can't find someone to cover for you. You're gonna let Justin down, you're gonna let Kate down, you're gonna let Susan, like all of these things are spiraling in my head, and that's totally the fawn response. Because in a perfect world, if I were to call one of those people and say, like, I'm I'm ill, like I can't get out of bed, I'm really sick, they would understand it. And they might be a little disappointed, but life goes on. But in my mind and my body, I have to be there. So, of course, I will myself to be better and get there and power through, but and it's Everything did work out in the end, but it's like I think the narrative caught me because, like, that narrative is skewed, right? They're gonna understand.

SPEAKER_02 22:10

You're probably raised to be a very reliable person. You know, you might have had um some times where you couldn't show up and there was some shame or there was some discipline. And so you learned I am a reliable person and I cannot let people down. And then your body remembers that, and then it goes into the mind and all of this. When in actuality, you might be able to have a pause moment and say, Is this true? Is it true I'm going to let everyone down? Is it actually true they're going to be deeply disappointed with me and they will not understand?

SPEAKER_00 22:52

Is it true? Yeah. Yeah, I know. I know. And there was one other person that wasn't there. So they found a sub for them. So, like, you just never know. They probably could have pinched, hit it at the last minute, found someone to sub for me. Um, so I think it was another awareness moment of where was that response coming from? Because again, if you turn it around, if you reframe it, if you called me up and said, Lindsay, I'm supposed to go do a presentation from three to five today, and I can't get out of bed. I'm ill, I'm nauseous, I'm like weak. In a million years, would I ever be like, absolutely not? You need to get, you know, like no one would react that way. So a lot of times what we tell ourselves is not actually true. It's that voice that's irrational.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

It's it's truly, you know, I have the same response because it happened to me. I've been sick a few times this year. And to feel like, oh my gosh, Lindsay has to do this whole presentation by herself, and I can't believe I'm sick again. And what's wrong with me? So we just want to begin to bring awareness and compassion and normalize like this is a very ingrained program that so many of us go through and I would say struggle with. And maybe this is, you know, I've begun to notice Gen Z kind of is doing a great job at dismantling this program, which can also be very triggering to those of us that have really put this on such a pedestal to always show up despite our physical body not being okay. So I've had to really also start to notice wow, I'm being like really triggered right now because someone in that generation is actually like putting themselves first. And and so it's a lot to just observe. We're observing and we're saying, wow, this has been my whole life that I've done this.

SPEAKER_00 24:57

Yeah, definitely, definitely.

SPEAKER_02 25:01

So some strategies here, like we said, recognizing those triggers. We don't like to let people down. We want to be very reliable, we want to be thought of very well. We we've connected that to our success. And so starting small is huge. Starting small, so that might be um we're feeling quite overwhelmed with deadlines, but we don't feel comfortable saying something to our manager. Maybe we don't have that established level of trust, or maybe we have an internal dialogue that says you have to get it done no matter what. Starting small might look like contemplating setting the boundary, you know, thinking about what might this conversation look like. Maybe we, you know, script out a professional way of going about it. And maybe we don't even have the conversation, but we start to sit with what might that look like? How might I say it? How might I say I really can't work after 6 p.m. most nights? You know, whatever that is for us, instead of maybe forcing ourselves when we're not quite ready, like preparing.

SPEAKER_00 26:21

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Starting small is huge.

SPEAKER_02 26:26

And it's okay to feel discomfort when setting a boundary. I think some of us are like, well, I feel too much discomfort, which is valid. It can feel extremely uncomfortable to set a boundary, but I also want to remind you, it also feels very uncomfortable to not set boundaries. It feels very uncomfortable to continue to go through life not putting ourselves first and not protecting ourselves and thinking, you know, if I just please everyone else, then I'm gonna be okay. And in actuality, we're really struggling.

SPEAKER_00 27:03

Yeah, absolutely. And that's a story that Mel brings up early on, I think, in her Let Them theory book is like she went bent over backwards for a friend to be there for a big birthday party, bent over backwards to help her family. Like she's stretching herself so thin, she's doing everything for everyone else, and no one really cares. And she's miserable in the process. It was kind of like an aha moment. And I think another going back to like what are the signs you could be in that fawn is um starting to feel resentment, you know, starting to feel kind of like, I gotta clean this whole house and no one else picks up after themselves, like must be nice, you know. Like you start to have that narrative because oh yeah, you're not setting those boundaries. Hey, everyone puts their dishes in the dishwasher, everyone picks up their stuff, everyone takes their laundry basket upstairs. Like when you stop doing for others and stop trying to please everyone else, you know, that resentment will start to die down too. Yep, so true.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

So doing a little bit of self-reflection, thinking about where might I start to set a boundary if I were going to set a boundary. So maybe Sundays are a rest day. So I don't say yes to events on Sundays. Or perhaps there's certain people in my life that I really don't feel like I have the energy for. So I start to maybe distance myself from those relationships, contemplating where might I start to do this and communicating clearly using I statements. So saying I need to leave by 6 p.m. to manage my personal commitments, period. Right? You don't need to overexplain. No, I can't take this on because I'm at full capacity. Right. If it's maybe our direct manager and they want to know a little bit more about what our full capacity looks like, great. Uh, using a buffer phrase, like you said, giving yourself some time. So maybe someone asks, hey, can you come to this gala next month? And you're not quite sure if you have the energy, you're not quite sure what's going on. Thanks so much for the invite. Let me check my schedule and get back to you. And you can connect to what's good, what's good for you?

SPEAKER_00 29:26

Yeah, for sure. For me, I used to say yes immediately. And now I give myself at least 24 hours just to evaluate is this a real yes? Is this an obligatory yes? Is this a yes out of habit? Um, is this a yes because I'm excited and I really want to do it? But when I look at my calendar and I balance it out for the rest of the week, I'm gonna be depleted and drained because I have too many other things going on. So giving yourself that time is huge.

SPEAKER_02 29:53

Yes, absolutely. And thinking about as well, you know, it's great to show up for everyone all the time. It's great to be reliable. But if you are a leader of other people and you are constantly not setting boundaries for yourself, you're answering emails at midnight, you're answering emails on vacation, you're communicating to them that it's not okay to stop working, right? It's not okay to take breaks. It's, you know, really kind of setting the expectation of we're not allowed to rest, we're not allowed to stop. Even if you tell them, hey, I don't expect this from you, they probably will on some level be feeling that level of expectation to show up in that way. So that's also really interesting to think about. Wow, if I'm never saying no, what am I teaching my kids, my friends, my family, my co-workers, what am I teaching others?

SPEAKER_00 30:56

So important. Yeah. What you're modeling is huge.

SPEAKER_02 31:02

And of course, seeking support with this, this is not something that only one person in the world deals with, or two, considering we both deal with it. Um, it's a lot of people. So seeking support, saying to others, you know, I am working on setting more boundaries, just so you know. So this isn't personal. And I just would really love some support with this. It's very uncomfortable for me. So I might need to reach out after I set a boundary. Um, because it just feels really, really difficult in the body. And thinking about okay, do I need a break? Do I need some deep breaths? Do I need to sit and really validate these feelings and feel these emotions and allow this to move through my system? And preparing for pushback, because I think you had mentioned that earlier. People really are gonna have an issue with you setting boundaries, especially if you've never set them before. And because it's it takes them off guard and it they kind of have to start to process what does this mean? They've never done this before. Wait, I was relying on them. What's going on? Yeah, and that's okay. You're not responsible for that necessarily. You're responsible for yourself, but you just want to be prepared. There might be some pushback. And maybe, maybe you let the pushback happen a little bit, right? Like maybe you're like, okay, that's okay. I'll still show up at 7 p.m. But then we prepare for the next time. Next time the pushback is not going to change my response.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

Yes. And I think when we've worked with coaching clients in the past, sometimes when they get that pushback, and pushback could be confusion, questioning why, pushback could be um maybe they're a little upset or disappointed. Well, you always you always do the bake sale for the church, right? You know, um, that doesn't mean you didn't do it right because I hear a lot like, well, I tried to set a boundary and the person got upset with me. Okay, that doesn't mean it was it wasn't a good boundary. It just means they're they maybe weren't used to that. Um, or they weren't happy, but again, you're not responsible for their happiness. Happiness. Um, so it is gonna feel a little bit uncomfortable. I remember having a coaching client once who she worked at a really intense company, um, you know, always on culture, not a lot of free time. Um, she wanted to start to prioritize her health, and she wanted to start leaving the office at like 4:30 on like two days a week to go try to get to the gym. And I was like, just start doing it. Like, just block off your calendar from four to five. Nobody needs to know where you are, nobody needs to know what you're doing. Like, just start. And in her mind, it felt so scary. Like, I'm oh my God, I'm not gonna be here. And I'm like, just try it for a week because I guarantee you it's it feels scary in your mind, but in reality, people maybe they walk by your office, you're not there. Maybe they email you, you don't respond, they move on. Like it's it's not the end of the world. And then when you get more comfortable doing it, now you can maybe tell, you know, your manager or tell your direct reports, hey, on Wednesdays and Fridays, you know, I block off my calendar from four to five because I'm I'm going to the gym. And it feels less scary to set that boundary because you know that the world keeps spinning and nothing crazy happens when you're gone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:31

So absolutely. It's sometimes it's just doing it.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:35

It's just doing it.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

And that's building that muscle. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:40

Yeah. So, you know, thinking about how we communicate, saying, like, I appreciate the opportunity, but I need to ensure I can deliver quality work before extending myself. Can we make sure we cover all key points before 4 p.m.? I have a hard stop at four. I'll get back to you first thing in the morning if you email me after seven. And you know, I need uninterrupted time right now to focus on this task. Do you mind if we catch up later? Maybe you're getting interrupted and you set the boundary of I'm working on something that's pretty high priority. Can we meet on this tomorrow? And truly, yes, it's going to take practice, especially if you're the yes person. And people might be a little confused at first. But if you continue to practice this and continue to show yourself, hey, I actually am okay if I set boundaries. And actually, people are starting to see seemingly see be okay with this. Um, people are starting to get used to me setting these professional boundaries, and then it becomes far less scary. And there might always be one or two outliers of folks that aren't quite as understanding. Maybe you have different ways of communicating with them. Um, and whatever you decide to do is okay. But like you said, remembering their response is not your responsibility.

SPEAKER_00 36:20

Yeah. Yep. And in in some instances, you might even set a good example and give other people permission to say, oh, okay, maybe I don't have to, you know, stay stay in the office in my chair until 5 p.m. every single day. If, you know, I'm gonna make up the time throughout the week and there's something I really need to get to. I mean, I I think I mentioned this to you before, Lindsay, but we had something that they were trying to do when I was at Pepsi called leaving loudly. So this was before um I was there from 2013 to 2018. So this was before like remote work was a big thing. This is before a lot of people worked from home and they were trying to normalize like if you have to go to your kids' soccer game, if you need to leave early for whatever, people used to kind of like sneak out the back door, try to be quiet, not a make a big deal about it, be very covert. And Indra Nui was like, no, I want you guys to start saying, like, all right, everybody, I'm taking off for the day. Uh, I'll see you tomorrow. Have a good night. And like, then people would go, Well, where's Paul going? Where's where's Joe going? Like, what's and then they you start by the leaders doing this, you start to set an example that if you have a personal commitment or you have something important to you, um, it's okay to leave early because you've earned it and we know you're gonna, you know, we know you're still gonna get your job done. And we're you're gonna, it was kind of like I forgot the term of it. It was like flexible something.

SPEAKER_02 37:46

Um but like normalizing yeah that in the culture, right? Like we're normalizing, we're putting people first, we're putting our families first, we're putting ourselves first.

SPEAKER_00 37:56

Yeah, it's called I think it was called flexible productivity, you know. And then and then, you know, COVID happened a few years later and the whole world changed. But I thought that was really cool how yes, you know, you kind of normalize, like, and I had a manager once say some something similar to what we've been talking about, you know, from six to eight, that's family time. I'm gonna be at home, I'm with my kids, I'm making dinner. You know, if you need me before then, just try to get a hold of me before six, otherwise, I'll follow up with you after eight. Yeah, and it was like it was kind of refreshing to hear somebody say that.

SPEAKER_02 38:28

Because you're normalizing expectations and you're reminding people we're all human beings, you know, we're not brain surgeons, this is not life and death. We can still care about our work, and I think we do this really well at Ascendant. Like we can still deeply care about our work, but it's that flexible productivity of when do I have the space to show up for this? I'm still showing up for my obligations, but when is the appropriate time to work on this? When do I have to put family things first? And that feels really good. It feels non-restrictive.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Yeah, totally.

SPEAKER_02 39:04

So now moving into freeze. So maybe you've been in Fawn quite a lot. Maybe you've lived there for a long time, and maybe you spend a lot of your day people pleasing and putting other people first. And then at night, maybe everyone's gone to bed or you're by yourself and you know you got things checked off, and you all of a sudden are just zoning out. So, how might this show up at work? Inability to speak or act, inability to make decisions, decision fatigue when we're like, God, which decision is right, which one's wrong? Typically, it's not going to be the end of the world either way, but we can't come to that decision. Physical stiffness, stillness, having a blank mind. You know, maybe someone says something to you and you don't have a response. Maybe we avoid our tasks, even if they're like typical small, easy tasks. We just can't seem to get ourselves going. Maybe it's procrastination. Maybe I'm withdrawing from wanting to speak to any of my coworkers. So, once again, just normalizing this response and saying, hmm, I do relate to this and I live in a very potentially stressful world, and I'm doing a lot every day, and I'm processing a lot every day. So this is normal to sometimes get here. It's normal for my body to run out of energy.

SPEAKER_00 40:42

Very true, very true.

SPEAKER_02 40:44

Yeah. So a few things that might be helpful with the freeze response, making micro decisions. So maybe we don't have the time to do the full report, but maybe you know, we can think about opening up the Word document or opening up the email and taking some time to read through it. Maybe I go through my junk folder. Maybe I, you know, scan my email for anything I can delete and I set a timer for 15 minutes to do that. Maybe it's setting a timer for a scary task and allowing myself to spend just 15 to 20 minutes on that task. Maybe it's eating the frog first thing in the morning, which means, you know, I'm gonna do the hardest thing first, which would be eating the frog. And then the rest of the day is oh, this is a piece of cake because I made that scary doctor's appointment, or I called that client that I was really nervous to speak to, and it actually went so well. Maybe it's romanticizing our day, lighting a candle, putting on some soft music, putting on a blanket, like a super cozy warm sweater and blanket, and having a warm cup of tea, because that will the literal freeze, right? Oh, I have a warm beverage now. It's gonna help me unfreeze.

SPEAKER_00 42:21

Yeah, absolutely. Anything that's gonna kind of waken you up from that state of like numbness, you know. Maybe it's like you said, a coffee break, go with a coworker, go bring coffee back for them, chat for a little bit. Yeah, it's connection. Yeah, connection. Sometimes for me, it's like I just need to listen to something inspiring. Maybe I'll put on a podcast or put on my favorite music. Like I just need to like snap out of it, you know. I need something to get me going again, get the juices going.

SPEAKER_02 42:50

Yeah, and that can feel, you know, I often get here, especially in winter, it's kind of like I'm not feeling passion, I'm not feeling excitement, I'm not feeling maybe it's like music doesn't sound as good or right. And you just kind of notice that and you get support, of course. But what do I need to reawaken my spirit a little bit? Um, and having compassion for this space. And I guarantee you, if you connect with a trusted individual, they're gonna also be able to relate and they're gonna say, Yeah, I've been kind of in a funk too, and you know, it's pretty gray outside.

SPEAKER_00 43:28

Yeah. I know, I know. I had a girlfriend reach out this week. She's like, it's kind of slow for me this week because everyone's on break, and you know, she's like, if you want to meet up, let me know. And I'm like, Yeah, I do want to meet up because I've been hibernating for two months.

SPEAKER_02 43:42

It's gonna be less easy to grab a coffee or grab a drink.

SPEAKER_00 43:45

Like I want someone and be out in the world. Exactly. I want to get out of my house, I want to like have something to look forward to. Yes, because it's the default is so easy, you know, to slip back into that freeze mode.

SPEAKER_02 44:01

And I think phones can also play a pretty big role in this. So I want to just give a couple of tips here. You know, we might actually do a whole episode, I think, on technology and maybe getting off of our phones and setting boundaries and whatnot. But grayscaling your phone, it can be a really easy thing to Google and putting a shortcut in to put your phone in gray when you really want to focus. So that's going to turn off all of the colors and it's going to allow your brain to not be as fixated on it. And it's actually going to make your computer and the world around you look so much brighter. So it's going to help you get off of that little box that we're constantly drawn to. Setting time to not be on our phone. Maybe it's Sunday afternoons. Maybe it's I don't go on my phone after 10 p.m., right? Maybe it's I don't charge my phone in the bedroom, or I charge it across the room if I still need to have access to it. Maybe I remove some distracting apps, or I kind of look at where I've been spending the time on my phone and I think about what I can delete? Where am I spending hours? And what am I really looking for when I'm scrolling?

unknown 45:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 45:19

And right. And how do I feel after I go on some of these apps? Like I think that's a big one with social media. Do you feel uplifted and connected and rejuvenated and you know, happy? Or do you feel kind of like, oh wow, everyone's got these big, fun, amazing lives, everyone's doing these cool things, and I'm now I feel more drained and more depressed or more.

SPEAKER_02 45:42

Or I feel anxious because I'm supposed to be implementing this 10-step workout routine that I'm not doing, or right?

SPEAKER_00 45:50

Totally.

SPEAKER_02 45:50

Am I looking, I'm typically looking for inspiration, I think, or like I'm trying to combat boredom. And so when I begin to notice that, I think about what would feel inspiring for me to do right now? Would it be connecting with someone, or maybe I play the piano for a little bit, or maybe I get out and go for a walk? But what what am I trying to seek on my phone? And where could I get that otherwise?

SPEAKER_00 46:15

So important, yes, because the phone is gonna be the quickest like dopamine hit, but it's not gonna last the long as long and it's not like real, you know.

SPEAKER_02 46:26

Absolutely. So and having compassion once again, because we're all on some level addicted to our devices, so this doesn't need to happen overnight. But I do think we tend to, especially when we're in the freeze response, gravitate towards our phone because it feels comforting. It feels like the dopamine and some serotonin is coming in. And we just have to also have other tools here. So asking what is important and controllable today can also be a really nice shift to bring compassion to the freeze response and say, I don't have to get everything done today. Maybe I pick one to three things that are like my non-negotiables and I can still feel productive, but I also give myself some grace to say I'm not getting through the whole to-do list, and that is more than okay.

unknown 47:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_02 47:23

And giving ourselves credit for the small things. So I drank water today, I got out of bed today, maybe I fed my animals today, but it sounds a little silly, but it's going to prove to your brain that you actually are getting things done and you are a capable person. And even if you can't even find anything that you feel like you've done, remembering you are worthy as who you are existing in your body as a person, period, even if you are not productive today. And maybe your body really, really needs some rest. And how do we begin to build that in and prioritize that in our lives?

SPEAKER_00 48:10

So true. This one is really big. And I think we most of us don't give ourselves enough credit. And most of us are doing a lot more than we think we are, you know.

unknown 48:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:21

I mean, even if you don't absolutely yeah, like even if you don't think you are super productive at work or super productive around your house, you know, if you're taking care of kids, if you're taking care of your pets, if you're, you know, doing the dishes, if you're making food for yourself, if you're going to this grocery store, like those are all those all take energy. And those are all big things that you should give yourself credit for.

SPEAKER_02 48:47

Yeah. We were we kind of designed a world where we were taught it's never good enough. And so I think that program is so overwhelming at times that we literally do not recognize anything we have done. We just focus on the things that are coming up and that we weren't able to do today, instead of, wow, I made a lot of progress. And the other thing I'll actually share that I have begun doing that feels very good to me is I have my journal next to my bed and I write, okay, what went well today. So I write out all the things I accomplished, or maybe the people I connected to, or maybe, you know, I took a bath or whatever that is. And then I go to the next page and I go, what might go better tomorrow? And then I set some expectations for what I would like to do, knowing I'm not gonna get it all done, you know, knowing I'm probably gonna write three more things than I'll actually get done. But it kind of grounds you, and for me at least, it it gives me a sense of reflection to say, wow, congratulations! Like, look at the things you have done, instead of, oh my gosh, like it typically would have been, I didn't get enough done, and look at this pile of laundry, and I should have gotten X more resumes done today, you know, stuff like that. And instead, you're celebrating your accomplishments and your life.

SPEAKER_00 50:22

Yeah, so it's that's the reframing I think that's so important. Like, what don't make it to done list.

SPEAKER_02 50:29

Look at all of that. Exactly. Celebrate, celebrate, even if you didn't get things done. Maybe you showed up for someone in your life, maybe you showed up for yourself, maybe you played video games or you played with your dog, or it doesn't always need to result in work, right?

SPEAKER_00 50:48

Right. It's that productivity, your productivity is not your worth, but it's so programmed in you know American capitalist society, and you know, we it's this narrative that we all tell ourselves, and especially if you feel like you had to kind of earn your worth or like earn credit for things. Um, so yeah, maybe you were present with your kids, maybe you popped in and visited a family member in the hospital. Like to me, those things are more important. It's it's almost like not all tasks are created equal. So think about your values, think about your goals, think about what matters most. Because I don't care if you checked off like 20 ticky-tacky things, and then you missed the big opportunity, you know, to see a friend who was in town or to play with your kid in the snow, or you know, take your dog for the walk that they can you can tell they want to go outside, and you're just like, I gotta send one more email. You know, it's I think it's like reshifting what really matters.

SPEAKER_02 51:46

What are the priorities and how do I want to feel? And what's really important today? Yeah, it's really different every day. So self-care can be taking a step back, asking for help, spending time alone, putting ourselves first. It's going to be a little different each day, but that's where this awareness comes in. And from the space of I'm advocating for myself and I'm truly tuning into what do I need? And what does it look like if I start to ask for that? Because also, yes, it's the fawn response, but when we start to do that more, I think the freeze response becomes less and less because we're starting to conserve our energy and use it in different ways. And we don't get into that freeze response as often because we're actually like, wow, I'm I'm feeling like I'm being able to be more present and joyful and connecting with people.

SPEAKER_00 52:49

Yeah. I mean, you're conserving more energy too, if you think about it that way.

SPEAKER_02 52:54

Yes. So I encourage everyone today to maybe think of a situation that typically stresses us out. Maybe think of where we typically go. Maybe it's fun, maybe it's fight or flight, maybe it's freeze. We're gonna talk about fight or flight more in the next episode and and some tools to work through that. But exploring, you know, what's activating me, what's my trigger, what's the fear, what could be a new perspective here? What could be a shift? And what could be a new overall regulated response for myself? And we'd love to hear from you. We also I want to share that we have a leadership membership program. Linz, I don't know if you want to share just a little bit about that in case they want to sign up for it.

SPEAKER_00 53:46

Yeah, so it's it's called our means to ascend community. Um, it is free to join. You can go to our website, um www.ascendant.com, and you'll see in sort of the leadership development area, there's all kinds of information about what it is and and how we help. But basically a free community. Um, we do once a month um leadership sessions with some QA and live coaching at the end. We had our first one in January, um, really all about understanding, you know, leadership, the difference between leadership and management, you know, understanding foundational leadership. And then this month at the um the fourth Friday of the month, we're gonna talk a lot more about like values, priorities, goals, some of the things we touched on towards the end of this podcast, like what matters most to you? How are you making sure you're living in alignment with those values and priorities? Um, but yeah, we'd love to have you and you know, no commitment. You can come and go as you please, but just here to help spread some leadership, spread, spread some light into the community and the world that we live in.

SPEAKER_02 54:56

We are so happy to be here. Thank you so much for listening. We really believe that this has a profound impact and difference in the world. Uh, so thank you for being here, and we will see you for episode five.

SPEAKER_00 55:10

Yes. Bye.

unknown 55:12

Bye.