The Big Hole River Conversation (Part 2)

Talk about the conservation and solution on the Big Hole River.

Talk about Steve's trip to Guatemala for sail fish.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Alright, welcome to episode season one, episode five of the Flying Around Podcast. We're back after a little bit. John just got back from a trip down to the Dominican. Um I've got step one I'm gonna take care of here. We're gonna go ahead and just put these down below. Alright, I'm sorry. My my clicks were hitting the heck out of my microphone. So I think we've remedied that problem and I'll never do that again. Um, but anyway, Sean, we um left off on the last podcast talking about the Big Hole River, some of the challenges it's facing, some of the conservation issues, and uh definitely wasn't enough time in just one podcast to spend on that. So we're gonna take a little bit more time and delve into some of the hard-hitting issues, some potential solutions, and kind of an outlook for the future for the big hole.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

Yeah, just in case someone uh has missed episode four to kind of refresh just a little bit, it's pretty widely known that water or lack thereof drives fish populations on probably not just our rivers and the Jefferson drainage, but elsewhere as well. More water, more fish, less water, less fish. So we've been we've had a lack of water since 21 essentially. We had one normal year a couple years ago, and we saw fish populations, the big hole, double just because of one normal year. Um, age class of that year survived, they're pushing up into some better-sized fish now. Um, but long term, it doesn't appear Mother Nature really wants to give us the water that we had at one time in southwest Montana, and the entire western United States is experiencing the lowest recorded snowpack in history and the warmest winter ever. As we speak, I'm sitting here in a short-sleeved shirt in March, and uh it's it's pretty toasty outside.

SPEAKER_01 1:53

Yeah, it's like 75 degrees outside or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:55

So we're gonna need to think outside of the box if we're gonna maintain our world-class trout streams in order to not see peaks as big as peaks in valleys and sustainability and allow them to thrive. And you know, we we understand it's driven Western politics, western economies long before we were around. Water drives everything in our economy out here. Um, and you know, we we're seeing a few more people that have moved Montana since COVID. A lot of those folks relocated here because they have public lands, public resources. Um, so and we are gonna have to take some steps that are gonna kind of ensure that we don't have these peaks and valleys and fish populations and dry rivers up and whatnot. And I have a few ideas. I've spoken with some people, done some research, and uh, we're kind of nearing a point in time where I think we can make some solutions to kind of smooth this road out a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

Yeah, what what solutions?

SPEAKER_00 2:50

Well, so the big hole um for a long time has kind of existed in a system where you don't really know what water's going where. It's somewhat of uh not to say lawless, but a truly Wild West situation. And till now we've been basically relying upon the charity of irrigators to make sure that we don't dry the river up. Um I believe that all people with water rights on the Big Hole River have until a deadline of July 13th of this year to essentially file a complaint or against whatever their water rights are going to be decreed as. And by estimation, by 2028, we should have this system in place whereupon we'll have water commissioners that'll observe how much water is going where, you're taking too much, this, that, or another. Um, and what's really interesting, and I had this thought I I brought up with you about an hour ago, is about the time I was born here in the great state of Montana, there was some really neat stuff going on. I didn't appreciate it until later in life, but things were implemented between about 1969 and 1974, like the stream access law uh in 1969, in-stream flows for the benefits of wildlife were deemed a uh as a as a use that was acceptable prior to that. It was either a use it or lose it system, and if you didn't put it on a field, you might lose your water, right? Which encouraged people to use more, not less water. But the combination of all these things I'm talking about puts us in a situation potentially just a couple years out, where through a public and privately funded system, we have some people, the demographics are changing in Montana. We don't know all traditional ranchers, we don't want to see them go away, but we have some folks that have moved here for fishing and things like that. They're buying ranches, they may not need to use all that water, they could be encouraged to lease some of that water. Um, and but we need a system that allows us to track that water from the upper part of the river all the way downstream. As it exists right now, were we to lease, let's throw a hypothetical number out there, like 40 cubic feet per second of volume, there's nothing to prevent the next guy downstream but a head gauge from taking that 40 CFS. So we're not able to change the system we're in, and we're stuck with this charity system to not dry up stretches of the river.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

So we had kind of the this romantic idea of why not just put gauges on all the head gauges.

SPEAKER_00 5:24

And it really at this point now, that's not gonna happen, it looks like, until we get this final decree. And so we're a couple years out, but that would be part of the process. Like, you know, the what I like to point out is we're some of the most heavy, heavily regulated outfitters anywhere in America. Um, if I don't have two tags indicating I'm an outfitter or guide on the big hole, I can get a fine on the spot for$180. So I don't think it's too much of a reach to allow make other water users, you know, show a little bit of regulation. So with water being such a finite resource in late summer, that we know what's going where. I don't think that's too much of an ask.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

Yeah, sure. So state of Montana, the number one industry still is ag. So it's it's a big force out there. Um, however, number two industry, tourism.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

100%, and and kind of and growing a bit as as time goes by. And as I mentioned before, we're we we this is what we live this life, rivers, the health of them, the fishing. Um, the general public kind of legs behind opinion-wise, but we kind of tend to get to the same place. And we've got a lot of folks who, you know, have been fishing the big hole probably longer than I have, and you know, folks, and they're starting to get a little bit upset with the fact that the river closes the third week of July, they may not see it again until the next year. So we need to come up with a solution to protect the health of the river and um in the resource as a fishery. Um, the Fishwife and Parks has always been very big about opportunity as one of their, you know, whether it be hunting or fishing in this state. And so we're losing opportunity, and we have people that are starting to get a little upset about it.

SPEAKER_01 7:02

So, to be fair to FWP, we talked about in the last podcast that they're able to use the tools that are in their tool belt. Uh, when it comes to agriculture, it's it's like a sheriff out of county, they have no jurisdiction. Um, their one ability is to regulate us as anglers. And and Sean and I will tell you right here, we have no problem being regulated if it benefits the river. I think what we're asking is that all users of the river um have an equal responsibility and actual regulations on uh water use.

SPEAKER_00 7:34

Yeah, so uh I think we need to let this play out to the point where all these water rights are decreed and we push through the the DNRC is the regulatory body and the state agency which regulates these issues with as far as water goes. And we try to push to a point where we can get gauges, we know what's going where, and we can build a system to where we can lease end or buy water for the beneficial use of an in-stream flow. Should that not happen, the easy way seems makes sense to most people, I'm sure that are listening because we're probably anglers. Um, the next step, should that not happen? Um, in the state of Montana, we have a ballot initiative, and we've seen some pretty instrumental laws that have come down the pipeline in the last 40 years or so. Uh, we have a ban on uh cyanide heat bleach gold mines in Montana. Uh back when that was instituted, the price of gold was about$330 an ounce. At$5,000, we might have 50 or 60 of those mines, which have caused a lot of problems polluting water for eternity. And it's cost the state a lot of money to clean up and/or treat water. So that was good. There were some instrumental uh subdivision regulation that came through the ballot initiative. Um so what I'm proposing, and and uh it was kind of generated a firestorm a few years ago in the in the newspaper when I was standing down the Jefferson and it was about 42 CFS, and we obviously probably lost some fish that year. A ballot initiative that maintains a minimum stream flow to be sorted out by people that know more about hydrology than I do, um, to where we're dramatically affecting life in the river itself. Should we not be able to find a system to maintain an in-stream flow? Because the charity system has worked a little bit, but long term it's probably not gonna work as we continue to get less moisture.

SPEAKER_01 9:26

Yeah, the uh the system of irrigating, can you go through it for for those who may not potentially understand? How do how do they take the water from the river?

SPEAKER_00 9:36

Generally, you have uh points of outtake, there'll be there'll be a small diversion that will go through a headgate, out into a ditch, could split into some other ones. On the Big Hole River, uh they're primarily uh sub-irrigating or flood irrigating in the upper valley, which you experience some return flows from that that percolate back up. Um, there's been a move towards more pivot irrigation, which is a more uh more uh, I guess, as far as it takes less water to have the same effect from an agricultural output. However, you lose a lot of water to evaporation and you don't get that return stream flow. Now, the other pluses and minuses of that would be that the the sub-irrigation or flood irrigating can cause things to leach from the soil itself into the river, causing more you know, uh phosphorus, you know, salt, those types of things could enter, and whereas you're not going to get that with with pivot irrigation. But um the most of these pivots have that you see as you drive around Montana have been subsidized to the point of about 50% of the cost through various government programs. And so we have just a tremendous amount of acreage more under cultivation than there was. It's just a growing number every year.

SPEAKER_01 10:50

You mentioned uh yesterday, I think it was how they really, you know, used to work the fields. Well, now they're working from the riverbanks all the way to the foothills.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Yeah, you were you were somewhat limited by gravity at one time, which you irrigate. And now, you know, you look at some of these valleys, and just there's a green band that extends from mountain to mountain where you know it was it was literally technically impossible to move water from this point all the way out to there to irrigate what might have been just some old dry horse pasture or something that may get grow enough grass some years and not others, uh that are now green. Yeah, so um, yeah, everybody's got to make a living. I family in the ag industry, and I understand the need to put up your hay crop to feed your cattle through the winter, but at the same time, um, we need to preserve these national treasures we have in some of the best trout fisheries in the western hemisphere that we have right here in Montana.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Sure. Yeah, no, I th I think we're just asking to share the load. And you know, visibility-wise, I think as an angler, a lot of folks listening have probably seen this on a 90-degree day, the wind's blowing 30 miles an hour, and the water just doesn't even hit the ground. You see it coming out of the pivots and and floating off. The other thing that we've seen a few times from our guides, I've seen personally, um, in order to maintain these places where they take out river, they they build these wing dams. Yeah, a lot of times these wing dams are built and maintained with excavators that are driven out into the river, parked right in the middle of the river. And you know, there was a a couple of years ago a pretty major story that that went around the socials, went around the news of people driving ATVs in the river, and just how heavily that was frowned upon. Yet we operate in a system during periods of low water fishing restrictions where basically the biggest ATV of them all is.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

A big giant excavator is out there two track in the middle of the river. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:47

Right. Yeah. At times we've seen placing tarps, you know, to potentially get all the water water possible.

SPEAKER_00 12:53

So uh 100%. You know, we're kind of the minority down here in southwest Montana, and uh, but you know, I think as we go forward in the future, it's these things, like I said, they're national treasures. And we can throw up another golf course just about anywhere, but you can't make another trout stripe.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

So uh going back to the ballot initiative for layman, um, you know, when it comes to law and water law, what does it take to get an initiative on the ballot?

SPEAKER_00 13:19

You know, um looked into it some, and generally um you need X number of signatures per county in Montana, um, and then that gets submitted uh, you know, to the state, and uh it's changed a little bit just in recent years, where essentially you would go to vote and there would be a paragraph describing this ballot initially, and you would vote yes or no. Um, there is some new stuff that's been put in where I believe the attorney general gets to go in and write a little bit of script how he feels that it would affect the uh this the state of Montana. So um timing might be pretty good on this, you know. If things don't play out, I think everyone's willing to be patient and see if after this, you know, we're sorted out the adjudication and whatnot to see if there's a willingness to uh you know do what we talk about with, you know, uh it's a this is a capitalist world. And you know, I know there's a lot of private money out there, and then we even have programs in Montana that uh should could be allocated money towards this. But and and let's just hope that you know Mother Nature throws us a bone and we bounce out of a drought, and and none of this is uh at the front news like it is now, and uh we get back to more years where everything's harmonious out there.

SPEAKER_01 14:30

Yeah, for sure. No, I think we're all cautiously optimistic, you know, being that there the demographics of Montana has changed, that a lot of people are moving here for the recreation. And you know, we hope people take you know those those issues seriously. Public lands has been a big big debate in politics in Montana. Things like corner crossing, and and you know, I I think most Montanans all want to have the the public resources for them to use, recreate for their you know, children, grandchildren to enjoy. And uh, yeah, us as anglers, you know, we're kind of seen a little bit as the villain, right? We're we're the ones going fishing and we're taking people fishing for money and this and that. But you know, the reality is we're we're just like you. We want these rivers to um to be there for generations and and for the sport of fly fishing to to survive as as best as possible. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:25

Yeah. Um, so we've uh you know we've brought that through, and uh let's lighten it up a little bit here for a minute. You're uh you're pretty stoked. You're headed out on Monday, right?

SPEAKER_01 15:35

Yeah, this is I'm I got I got senior itis a little bit today. This is my last day of work. Um we do some um we do a little bit of hosted travel out here uh frontier anglers here. Sean's done a number of trips, Alaska, uh Tier del Fuego, which we'll we'll talk about quite a bit in the past. Um Belize, we've we've gone to Belize before with a number of groups, but this year we decided to switch it up a little bit. You know, I've I've taken a number of very patient anglers, so of you to Belize, and you know, we end up throwing it a very difficult fish called the permit that we all tend to lust after and hope for. But you know, the reality is it's a difficult fish to catch. So this year we decided to to throw out some fish that eat. We're gonna head down to Guatemala and uh go for some billfish. Tailfish, marlin. There's uh some bycatch out there of Mahi Mahi and tuna, which oh man, that's the best shore lunch. Well, not shore, but but fishing lunch you could possibly stand to have. But it's uh it's a pretty exciting fishery.

SPEAKER_00 16:39

Yeah, I mean, not normally species you'd think about catching on a fly rod, and and it was kind of to me, having not seen a lot of that equipment, to look at these rods that you know are fly rods, and we we've ordered some for some of the folks going with you, and you're taking one, and I mean reels that look like you could winch your boat up onto the trailer with them, and um it sounds exciting. I mean, that just that first five, ten seconds when you're delayed into a triple-digit weight fish, you know, and its tail walking across the surface has to be pretty exhilarating. I've seen it on conventional tackle, but I'm interested to see some hear some stories when you come back, and yeah, kind of moved up to the on my list is something I want to do someday.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Yeah, it's uh it's an interesting sport. I mean, you're heading out in the ocean, sometimes 20, 30, 50, 60 miles, depending where on where the fish are. And uh you're basically trolling. You are trolling hookless ballyhoo plastics, things like that. And the idea is you're trying to mimic a school of bait fish to bring mostly specific sailfish, but also marlin and in mahi-mahi up to the surface. And when they get a fish up, the the mates all work in unison and bring in all the teasers in, all the plastics in, and they have one single high uh uh speed um gear ratio spin reel where they try and bring this fish in close. Now, the first time I saw this happen about eight years ago, I went down to Guatemala for my first trip and seeing a hundred-pound fish hunting, you know, not just cruising around ready to spook. This fish is charged up. Yeah, it's ready to eat, and you put the fly in the water and it's looking for it. Um, the eat's absolutely incredible when that giant bill plus a sail breaks the surface, and you know, then it's it's rodeo time, you know, it's kind of like hold on for eight seconds as this thing tailwalks across the surface of the water. It's very exciting, it's not your typical saltwater fly fishing, but uh got a group of uh folks who are pretty charged up to go do it. Um, I'm going to Blue Bayou, um, which is a lodge in the port of San Jose, about two hours from Guatemala City. Uh Chris Darres is the captain there. He's been great to work with. Really looking forward to uh working with him. Great place. We've got the house to ourselves. There's there's a pool, there's a bar out back, uh, a couple of really nice big comfortable boats. When you're not fishing, you're probably taking a nap on the couch somewhere because the dramamine's kicked in a little bit and you're a little sleepy. Getting ready for your next opportunity. Um, anyhow, I'm I could talk about this forever. Uh I'll probably talk about it uh for weeks once I get back, but hopefully we we have some success. Uh shout out to uh Scott Flyrods, to John Dobson. Uh they got me set up with a uh it's a 15 weight. Um man, it's got the the gimbal on the bottom, so you could even insert it in a fighting belt if you want. So definitely the biggest, craziest uh um fly rod uh you can imagine pitching. It's got a sinking head on it, so it actually bends the doggone thing a little bit when you throw the back cast because it's so doggone head 700 grain sink head. And the idea is when the the fly is on the surface, there's a big popping head and it brings the bubbles, they call it smoke, underneath the surface, and that's what really turns those fish on, looking like a blitzing bait fish.

SPEAKER_00 20:13

You know, that rod could be multi-purpose. It looked like if you strip the guides off it, we could roll down to the corner club and shoot pool with it.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

Yeah, we probably could shoot some pool with it. Uh put a broom on the end of it, sweep with it as a little bit of a typical broomstick. But no, we're we're excited about that. I'll I'll have some info about that um linked in the the description to to Blue Bayou. And uh if you want to check that out, yeah. Um if we have a good time, we'll we'll probably go back at some point in time too. We're uh we're always constantly looking, Sean and I, for the the best opportunities for our anglers, and we'll have some new trips coming up in the future. But uh that's what we've got on tap for this year.

SPEAKER_00 20:52

Yeah, no, and then yeah, you'll roll back, and uh here spring is here. Uh it's record high temperature outside today, and uh we have about 90% of the water here in southwest Montana opens on April 1st, and uh that's the topic of conversation. Where are you gonna go on opening day? And uh I I plan to get out there myself. It's been uh I missed some of these places that have been closed since essentially you know the third week of July, and um looking forward to it. It's it's right around the corner.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Yeah, still water season's kicking off, too.

SPEAKER_00 21:21

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Clark Canyon uh is heating up as far as you know the ice out, which occurred actually two and a half weeks ago, which is far ahead of normal. But uh water temperature coming up, pushing some big rainbows into the bank, guys are catching some of them. It's one of the few times you can just walk up to a big impoundment without a boat and some electronics and expect to catch fish, and you're standing on the bank and there they are, and it's it's a good time.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, it is really fun.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

Uh what else for this podcast today, Sean?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

I think we've kind of covered it. Uh, you know, um, you know, stay tuned and uh let's hope that uh Mother Nature comes through some timely rain throughout the spring and summer and doesn't put us in a tough position come late summer. Uh I will say that the big hole has 100% of normal snowpack. It's a little behind in the beaverhead. Fortunately, there's an impoundment on the beaverhead at Clark Canyon Reservoir. So it could go a lot of different directions from right now. None of which we can control.

SPEAKER_01 22:13

I was just looking at the snowtell for the west. And boy, there are a lot of states that are that that dark brick red. You know? Yeah. And kind of the beauty of it, you follow the Rockies north, and once you get to Montana, you start seeing a bit of yellow and actually quite a bit of green, notating the snowpack being near or above normal. So that's good news. If you want to do any fly fishing, this is probably the place to be out west. Yeah. So all right, well, that'll do it for episode five of Flying Around. We'll catch you on the next one.