Katie Starr - She Leads Science

In this episode of She Leads Science, host Dr. Liz Joy sits down with Kathryn (Katie) Porter Starr, PhD, RD—Associate Professor at Duke University, Research Health Scientist at the Durham VA, and Chief Science Officer at Vivo. Katie’s research focuses on how nutrition and strength training can preserve muscle, function, and independence in older adults, particularly those facing obesity, frailty, or surgery. In this conversation, Katie explains the science behind protein, resistance training, and “nutritional vulnerability,” and why protecting muscle is central to healthy aging. She also shares what it’s like to lead research and innovation across academic medicine, the VA, and the private sector while raising three young daughters, including twins. The discussion explores leadership, mentorship, and the realities of balancing multiple professional roles with family life, while providing insights into building a meaningful scientific career and managing the many demands of life beyond the lab.

Transcript

Tempo: 120.0

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome back to Sheet Lead Science. I'm your host, Dr. Liz Joy. Today I am thrilled to talk with Dr. Katie Starr. Katie is an associate professor of medicine in the Division of Geriatrics at Duke University School of Medicine, a research health scientist at the Durham VA Medical Center, and the Chief Science Officer at Vivo, a virtual strength training platform for older adults. Her research focuses on how nutrition is special protein and physical activity, my specialty, can preserve muscle, function, and independence in high-risk and vulnerable older adults, including veterans, people living with obesity, and those preparing for major surgery. On top of that all, she is also the mother of three young girls. So today we're going to talk about her science, her many hats, and how she manages to keep so many balls in the air without dropping the ones that matter most. Katie, thank you so much for joining me on She Lead Science. Thank you so much for having me. I'm so excited to have this conversation. Awesome. Well, um, I generally start my podcast, guests, with a warm-up question. So here's yours. When you're chatting with other parents at preschool pickup or the playground, and someone asks, So uh, what do you do? How on earth do you answer that these days?

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Um, so I usually laugh um first and uh really do start by just really answering the question very broadly to see how interested they are and what I'm actually doing. But I usually say something like, um, I study how nutrition and exercise can help older adults stay strong and independent as they age. And uh if they are interested, um, I'll add that I work with older adults who are often at very high risk for um frailty or functional disability, um, individuals with obesity or chronic health conditions, and really work on helping them getting get get ready for surgery or overcome a stressor that they may be experiencing. I really try to help um focus on preserving that muscle mass and resilience. Um, and then I mentioned that I also build virtual strength training programs for older adults, which actually usually gets uh a much more of an immediate reaction because people can really picture, oh, okay, I get what you do. Um so that's kind of the playground version is I help older adults uh, you know, stay stronger longer.

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I love that. Stay stronger longer. That's gonna tagline, that's a tagline that you should hang on to. So I'm I'm I'm interested, you know, what first actually drew you into studying nutrition and aging? And you know, was there a moment, a patient, you know, a class? You know, what really clicked for you in this this topic area?

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Yes, this uh uh this is I love I love this question. Um really my passion for aging uh is centered around my great-grandmother, Pearl Porter, who um lived to be 99. She lived alone until she was 93. Um and most of my fond, my fondest memories are um pulling up to her little house in Moultrie, Georgia, and her having a little hen and peas and um pound cake, um, all prepared for us and us really sitting around that table and having conversation and and really creating these memories that I cherish so much. And that that as I grew older, I realized she was a true example of resilience and and really strength. And and it really resonated with me as I started thinking and looking at different aging uh individuals and realizing, oh, this isn't necessarily the norm. Um, one of the other areas that really drew me in was uh my mom. Um my mom had a and has a very strong passion for older adults. Um, and she uh used to teach um exercise classes for older adults and do line dancing at senior centers. And so I will definitely set in quite a few of those classes and watched and saw that connection, that community, those moments that really um kind of solidified the importance of community in addition to, you know, the exercise piece and having having that connection and movement. And that that really set me on the course of the path that I took in regards to um exercise science and nutrition.

SPEAKER_00 4:53

I love that. You know, we actually have a very similar origin story because I think my interest in physical activity was inspired by my great-great aunt. We called her Auntie. And uh she was 80 when I was born. Um, and she used to walk three miles from her house to my house when I was a kid to have Sunday night dinner. And my parents would allow my brothers and I to walk four blocks. Now, you know, the 80-some-year-old walked three miles, and my brothers and I walked four blocks to the corner store where she would buy us a piece of candy. Um but you know, she walked everywhere. And uh, and I really um, you know, I was really inspired, you know, by her. She she lived until I was 16. So lots of inspiration there, right? With you know, the older women in our lives who, you know, are incredible models to us.

SPEAKER_01 5:51

Absolutely. Yes. And just the the ability for them to sustain just this independence is is really amazing. Yeah, and just really, again, as I work with more vulnerable older adults, that image, it just really sticks with me on what um, you know, what different pathways of aging can look like.

SPEAKER_00 6:17

You know, a little later we're gonna talk about mentorship and leadership, you know, that you're doing, but I'm curious about whether or not there was a key mentor or a teacher who also helped to kind of steer your interest and expertise in in geriatrics and clinical nutrition research.

SPEAKER_01 6:34

Yes, I have two phenomenal uh women mentors who really did shape me and really played a substantial role in helping me get where I am now. Um, the first is Dr. Marianne Johnson, who was my graduate advisor for both my master's and my PhD. Um, her research that she was really focused on was community nutrition and wellness. And so we went to senior centers and taught nutrition education classes in addition to doing exercise with those individuals. Um, and then we collected data on those individuals and looked at um improvements in physical function. So that really did not only create the foundation of the work that I love and do, but also the rigor that Dr. Johnson, Dr. Johnson came from, um, the minerals world and basic science. And so there was this very strong, uh, rigorous scientific foundation that she really, you know, challenged me and pushed me and really helped create the curiosity that I think I have today. Uh, and I'm so thankful for her. Um, the other mentor I have is Dr. Connie Bells, who uh was my uh mentor when I was a postdoc and is now still a mentor, but more of a colleague now, um uh as we we work together. Um, and she really introduced me to that clinical research and the importance of conducting clinical research trials, randomized control trials, and then also how the pragmatic approach when we're working in a clinical setting, that it's never per it's not perfect, it's not gonna be perfect, and how we have to really think about implementation and the big picture of at the end of the day, how is this going to translate into clinical care? And again, both of those individuals uh have really created that strong foundation for um my curiosity and love for science and nutrition and older adults because both of them worked in aging and nutrition and had a very strong background in very rigorous science.

SPEAKER_00 8:38

So yeah, yeah. Wow, they sound like amazing women. You are so lucky to have them as mentors and models, you know, for the work that you're doing, which is a great segue to talk about your science. Um, you've written about this concept of nutritional vulnerability. It's so important because we're seeing this now, right? And particularly older adults who may be using the GLP1 receptor agonists for weight loss. Um, but you know, my understanding of nutritional vulnerability is that it's when older adults have reserves that are so low they can't bounce back from a stressor, you know, that you you referenced previously, you know, whether that's surgery or or illness. We saw that with COVID-19. Um so for clinicians and listeners who kind of don't live in this world, you know, how do you explain that concept of nutritional vulnerability and why it matters?

SPEAKER_01 9:33

Yeah, this is uh this is such an important topic and area as we think about our older adults in different trajectories in which we which path that they can go on. And so I think nutritional vulnerability is really having exactly what you're saying as having little reserve or resilience to being able to overcome a stressor. And that stressor could be, you know, uh flu, COVID-19, a plant surgery, a fall or a fracture. And so what we want to be thinking about from that nutritional standpoint is what are things that we can do upstream to identify some of these nutritional vulnerabilities early so that we help, I like to call it tuning up, priming our older adult, priming our patients so that when they do encounter inevitably a surgery, flu, COVID, a stressor, they are not completely taken down by that, in which now they have hit that threshold of functional disability and really are not ever going to be able to come back to that level of independence, which again, we know from Dr. Freed, you know, um independence is so important for our older individual. Um, she wrote about 70% of older adults would forego a life-saving treatment if they knew it impacted their function and independence. And so when we bring that back to what matters most for our older individual, nutrition is at the forefront of that. So the way I really like to kind of think about it is, you know, trying to understand if an older adult has enough muscle mass. What does their protein intake look like? How is their appetite? What about their energy reserves? What is their recovery capacity to bounce back well from a surgery or illness? Um, in palliative care, they ask a question about do you think your patient is going to survive the next six months? Um, and that's one of the questions of whether or not we should have a palliative care consult. You know, I think about from nutritional vulnerability, do you think your patient has the nutritional reserve to be able to recover from a X, Y, or Z? And if not, we should be referring them to a dietitian. So at the map, at the at the central, I think at the center of this, it's really thinking about how do we use nutrition, how do we identify individuals at nutritional vulnerability who have nutrition vulnerability and use nutrition interventions to help really tune those individuals up so that they can withstand a stress and recover from that. And again, I think that is really important for clinicians because we identify vulnerabilities early, and that's really that's often where we can actually, you know, have the greatest opportunity to intervene. When we're having to play catch up, it's so much harder to build back those nutritional reserves when we have somebody who's already malnourished or um, you know, really at that nutritional vulnerability place where they have little reserve to be able to fully recover.

SPEAKER_00 12:43

So important. I mean, I'm just thinking about my own patients, you know, who um are tea and toasters, as I used to call them. Yes, right. What do you what do you have for breakfast? Well, I'm not hungry at breakfast time. You know, what do you have for lunch? Oh, a half a sandwich, you know, and maybe I have a cup of tea in the afternoon and you know, and a small dinner. Now, part of that is because people are so worried about calories, you know, they don't actually think about um, you know, calories as an energy source, you know, to maintain health, um, or nutrient density, which we haven't even talked about, but is also so important. Um, but you know, help us understand, help our listeners understand what you've learned about, you know, getting that balance right, you know, for people who want to lose fat, and let's face it, you know, we have a huge proportion of the United States adult population that is obese. So they are trying to lose weight. Um, but they also want to preserve muscle, they want to protect function and not cross into that disability threshold or cross over that disability threshold. What have you what have you learned about that, you know, in your research?

SPEAKER_01 14:06

Yes. And so, you know, it is it is a a balance as we start to think about weight loss and what is the best ways in which we can help our older adults lose weight, especially those individuals with obesity. And the first thing I want to say is right, we are trying to do our very best to have slow and steady weight loss that can be maintained. And I think that is really key and important as we think about all of our new um incretim mimics that are out on the market, right? Incortimimics can generate weight loss as you know, similar to bariatric surgery, right? And so we see this rapid, we can see this rapid weight loss. Well, when we see that rapid weight loss, what we will also see is a rapid loss of both fat and muscle mass. And we know that older adults are at a much higher risk of losing more muscle mass with every pound that they lose. And so when we think about our older adult, I always start with, and we always really think through, okay, we want this gradual weight loss that, yes, may not be as rewarding up front, but the goal here is to help again create that maintenance so that they can maintain that weight loss. So, what are we really thinking about? We're thinking about making sure that we have adequate protein, um, particularly complete proteins, proteins that include all of our essential amino acids. We want to maintain the properties that stimulate muscle protein synthesis, that really turn on that mechanism to promote muscle and maintain muscle while we are also in this hypocaloric state. So we're going to be reducing dietary intake, but we want to make sure we're keeping in our fruits and vegetables, our whole grains, our protein, so that we can have that slow steady weight loss while still maintaining our muscle mass. That's really the key thing here is if we are. So one of the one of the big issues I have is when I encounter a patient who needs to have, for example, um uh knee replacement surgery. And their doctor told them, well, you're gonna have to lose weight because we need your BMI down to 35 before you're gonna be able to go um into surgery. But we don't provide them with any other guidance. What ultimately happens is we have an individual who then is just going to restrict their dietary intake and doesn't have the knowledge set to know, oh, okay, I need to make sure I'm getting in adequate protein while I'm also reducing my dietary intake so I can maintain my muscle mass so that when I undergo this surgical stress or this catabolic insult, I am not going to be at a, you know, in a declined functional state postoperatively, but rather I'm gonna have preserved my muscle mass to help me recover and get back that independence. So, you know, again, I think at the end of the day, we just really need to be very mindful about how we are recommending weight loss. And when we are putting an older adult on a GLP1 receptor agonist, really thinking about the dosage that we're using and that rate of weight loss that really could have a big impact on muscle mass. The last thing I'm gonna say on this topic is, or I could talk all day about this topic, but one of the other things I want to mention is weight we regain. Um we regain weight when we stop using it, when we stop, you know, doing an intervention, when we stop uh working uh, you know, a weight loss program, if we stop taking the increment and mimics, we're gonna gain the weight back. Uh, what happens when we gain the weight back? We know we start to see more intermuscular adipose tissue, more eye mat, um, fat infiltrating the muscle, and more fat mass. So ultimately, we can actually set a person up for greater functional decline by having them lose weight and then regain weight. So, again, really thinking about that maintenance piece. How are we going to help with that behavior change piece so we can sustain those functional gains that this person may have gotten by losing weight? So sorry for that long-winded answer. Um, but just wanted to make sure we could conceptualize that it's really, really, you know, twofold. And again, I think the physical function, the strength training piece is also so important in this topic area because we are trying to preserve the muscle and function and the quality of the muscle while we are also reducing that dietary intake.

SPEAKER_00 18:44

Yeah, there's a lot to unpack there. Um, you know, I'm gonna mention two things. Maybe one is like a podcast in and of itself, but this whole concept of sarcopenic obesity, which is what you're talking about, that people lose both fat and muscle with weight loss. And then as they stop whatever intervention they're doing and they start to gain fat back, they've already lost muscle. And it it just sets them up for um even more uh health con um, you know, health consequences, I guess I should say. Um, but you did mention, you know, resistance training. And you know, can you talk a little bit about what protein and resistance training can do together in terms of supporting, you know, the preservation, you know, of muscle, even muscle gain, um, that neither can do alone. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 19:38

So one of the things that happens as we get older is we experience something called anabolic resistance, or really this resistance to stimulate muscle protein synthesis. What the beautiful thing is that we know is that we can actually overcome that anabolic resistance. And we can do that in two ways. We can do that with protein and we can do that with resistance training. And so when we put these two together, we really can actually create this wonderful environment to stimulate muscle protein synthesis, build stronger muscles, and again improve not only function, but also that muscle strength and muscle quality. So if you do one without the other, you're you're often just really leaving benefit on the table. And that's where we really kind of try to educate our older adults about when we can combine these two together, we really create this wonderful muscle-building signal that is going to generate um just a stronger functional response. So again, we you you're gonna get some benefit from making sure that we get in that adequate protein that can overcome the anabolic resistance, particularly our complete proteins that really drive that muscle protein synthesis. And then we also see that with our resistance training. Again, putting these two together, they create such much more powerful strategy for helping our older adults really preserve that lean muscle mass, um, improving that strength and really supporting that function and helping recover from stressors. And this is why we have programs, surgical programs, we have prehabilitation. This is why we have the American College of Surgery now has the geriatric surgery verification program where we're looking for nutritional vulnerabilities and functional vulnerabilities so that we can actually improve nutrition, improve functional status using protein, using resistance training so that we can actually have better outcomes postoperatively. So, again, not something that we've not realized, but I don't think that the message has always been very clear or articulate about we have to put these two together to really be able to have that anabolic responsiveness to uh really generate the biggest bang for our buck, right? Um, building that strong muscle and having that muscle quality. And ultimately improving that function.

SPEAKER_00 22:04

Love that. Super. And now you're bringing that expertise, you know, into vivo, uh, where you're helping to design and test a virtual strength training program for older adults. Um, you know, for a lot of older adults, they don't actually go to a gym because they may have never gone to a gym. Um, and they are they're maybe um intimidated by going to a gym, you know, with with other uh people who are are younger and and wearing a lot of spandex. Um so, you know, for these people who may have never set foot in a traditional gym, they have very low self-efficacy around resistance training. You know, talk to us about how you're making this work.

SPEAKER_01 22:52

Yeah. So I what what what excites me the most, and I'm gonna bring this back. So I actually worked at the Cooper Um Aerobic Center in Dallas, Texas, um early on in my career. And it was one of the best experiences of my life because the average age at that gym was around 45. So very atypical, right? Seeing equipment that was actually designed for older individuals. It was the first time that I had ever seen that in my life. Um, and it really did help change this lens of why don't we have settings like this for older individuals? And we don't. 2025, that was back in 2007, 2025, the majority of gyms are not designed for our older adult. Uh, and it's so unfortunate. So, what brings me the most excitement is how we can bring this evidence-based strength training into a real life setting for people who are really often left out of that traditional fitness space, unless you're in certain regions of the United States, you're just not going to have that opportunity. And we know that many older adults are not going to go into the gym, just like you just said, right? It's just, it's not conducive. It's not designed for an older individual. Um, there's also the issue of transportation barriers, confidence, I don't know what I'm doing, pain. Uh, we know we have the caregiver responsibilities, all of those barriers that we already know are older adult experiences with initiating strength training. So what what I get so excited about is um Eric Levitan, uh the CEO of VIPO, called me one day out of the blue and was like, hey, I have this idea. Um, I'm really interested in starting a strength training program for older adults. And um, I think that conversation lasted about two hours. Um, and I was like, yes, I am in. How do we do this? Let's do it. And one of the key reasons for that call, and the reason why I have been so excited about being a part of the vivo movement is because we create these interventions in research, right? We have these research studies where we show time and time again strength training improves function, and we see the legacy effect, right? We see that individuals who do strength training for three months, six months have these long-term functional impacts and how beneficial it is. However, once the grant funding is gone, it's gone, right? So the program stops and we move on to the next thing. Um, obviously, we're working, we're doing a better job at implementation science, but it's still so far away. So when Eric gave me that called me, I was like, this is it. This is real life. We can actually start changing lives today and creating this accessible, really social and supportive environment that is really structured and intentional. Um, and so again, COVID happened right in the midst of this. And so as we were creating, changing, and kind of moving our research studies over to a virtual setting, the conversation came well, why couldn't we do this virtually? Why couldn't we make FIFA virtual? And and that's what we did. And again, you know, turning Limes or lemon, turning lemon into lemonade with COVID, it allowed us to create this live and interactive product for older adults so that they could do it in the comfort of their home. And the goal was really not just for improving movement for movement's sake, but really meaningful strength training that really helps people build capacity for the things that they're doing in their daily life, daily functional movement patterns. So from a science, I think in an implementation standpoint, um, this was really incredibly exciting for me because it really allowed us to test that scalable approach that we continuously show in research studies and bring it into the commercial setting where people can actually do it today. And I think that's that is so exciting.

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Yeah, for sure. And I think this is a you know a good, a good segue. Um, you talked about implementation science, but I think, you know, at a personal level, implementation is hard too, right? I mean, we get we get started, you know, and fits and start sometimes, and maybe people do it for a little while and then you know they they lose interest or they have an injury, and it's it's hard to sustain the change. So I'm curious what you have learned through your research and your work with vivo, you know, about getting older adults to actually stick with nutrition and strength programs long enough to really see meaningful changes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:24

So I think one of the first things that I would say is um one of the questions that I've had to, I've had to really kind of change the question that I've been asking myself to more what are the barriers? And have we designed something that people can realistically integrate into their lives? Because I think that's that's it, is it has to be able to be integrated and engaging and something that people feel like is accessible and appropriately tailored, um, that creates that accountability and that social connectiveness that people are going to miss me if I'm not here, or um really kind of thinking about I enjoy doing this, I'm going to miss not doing this. Um, so that's really kind of what has helped me is rather why can't we get people to stick with it more, changing that to how do we overcome those barriers and create something that can be integrated much easier? The other question that think I'm so thankful for my experience in geriatrics and being able to work with such amazing geriatricians really helped me changing the approach that I take, not only to my research, but also my patient care, is around what matters most. What matters most to our individual that we're working with? And how can we help align that goal with doing these healthy behaviors? Um, how can we help align and reinforce the why behind why we are doing this? Not we're doing it because we need to reduce your cholesterol, or we're doing it so that, you know, um we can improve that A1C, but we're doing it so that you can get down on the floor with your grandchildren. We're doing it because um you want to be able to, you know, walk your daughter down the aisle. We're doing it because X, Y, and Z, and I think that really is key is truly finding the Y and really trying to align that with that really realistic integration, right? Understanding that no one's gonna be perfect, no one's gonna do something perfect. Um so meeting people where they're at, and and really I've also learned that that accountability and community piece, I mean, I think it plays one of the biggest roles is that when we do this with other people, when we make these behavior changes with other people, when we see another person struggling and being able to provide some insight or suggestions, that is that connection that I really do think also helps us adhere to these programs. Um I really think that that creates a lot of stickiness when it comes to making those behavior changes and maintaining those behavior changes.

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Yeah, I think that's really true. We all know now that social isolation is, you know, as dangerous as cigarette smoking, you know, when it comes to premature mortality. And and with vivo, you really have created an environment for people to connect and um be active, do resistance training together. Um, and that's been super, super important, a super important component. Yes. Um, we're kind of getting towards the end, so I'm gonna ask just a few more questions here. Um, you know, I mentioned at the top of the podcast that you you wear a lot of hats, you know, at Duke, at the VA, at Vivo. Um and boy, people talk a lot about work-life balance. Um, tell us how you do it with three kids, three girls.

SPEAKER_01 31:02

So I really appreciate this question because um I do it very imperfectly. Um, I think that uh one of the things that has been really helpful is I rely heavily on structure and my calendar. My calendar is really something that has helped me kind of set out times for myself, set out writing time, time for my um ability to mentor, um, time for my ability to work with my team. Um, but you know, fires happen, right? That we have to put out, and it's not always beautiful and it's not always perfect. But I do tend to try to think in blocks like research and writing time, operational work time, family time that is very protected. And I really tried very hard to protect that time because I'm never gonna get that back. I am never gonna get this time back with my young, wonderful children and get to see that magic that I think is really kind of um it's just it's it's what matters most to me coming back to geriatrics is that time matters to me. And so being able to do bathtime and dinner time is precious time that I have, you know, really created a block around. Now, with that being said, it means that uh I have to work in other areas. So I other times. So I think most weeks it feels like really a patch patchwork quilt. You know, um, it's it's held together by my calendar, uh, by my carpool, by my endless amount of coffee that I drink. Um, but again, kind of what really that structure helps me is kind of coming back exactly to really trying to align with what matters most. I love working with older adults. I love working with older adults. And so even being able to come into work and knowing that I have helped an individual gives me purpose. And so that that could even just be um, you know, walking somebody to radiology because they're lost. Um, but I think the passion that I have and the opportunities and the curiosity, right? There's so much that we can do and it's so exciting. Um, so I have to sometimes rein that in because I am a very curious, very curious person and I get very excited for other people's projects and my own projects. And so again, trying to really come back to that, what matters most to me? What do I have time for? And one of the things I've been working really hard on is knowing that if I do this, that means I have to sacrifice something else. And so really being able to have that conversation with myself has been very helpful in really being able to say no to certain things that typically I would love to say yes to. Um, but also I'm at a point in my career where I can also recommend somebody who's more junior than me and being able to say, I can't do this, but I have somebody who could do this or who would be a perfect person who could work on this project. And that is extremely exciting too. So it's not just a no, I can't. It's hey, there's somebody else who actually needs this effort or is really excited about this area that could actually do this work. The last thing I'm gonna say is I have to give a major shout out to my husband who supports my career. Not supports, he supports my curiosity in my career. Um, he is very supportive of um, you know, the work I do and obviously the work he does. Um, and we are a team and we work very closely together in making sure that we can be present for our children. But also um he understands that my work stretches in weird hours sometimes, and he is very flexible. So that's how we are juggling this crazy world right now that I love living in, but also oftentimes feel a little overwhelmed.

SPEAKER_00 35:00

Yes, um, but that's some really great advice. And I think, you know, there's um maybe a little generational shift here in in that I think when when women were coming up in medicine and science, um the ability, opportunity uh to say no just wasn't there because the minute you said no, the door just was shut. And now I think that people recognize that you know there's a lot of things in our lives that we have to um consider and parts that we're going to prioritize. And saying no is what keeps you sane and um keeps your work good, right? Because if you're so overwhelmed with all the different things in your life, it's it's hard to do, it's hard to do good work, it's hard to be a good parent.

SPEAKER_01 35:51

That's right. That's right. Yes. One of the best books I read was getting getting to yes with yourself. Um, getting to yes is a great book. It's a book about compromise, but getting to yes with yourself, uh, it it helped me figure out again, kind of tying back into what matters most to me and what am I willing to sacrifice. And again, I think that's a great book as we coming as we're coming, um, as we're thinking about this shift in, you know, the ability to say no, but also how to say no. We got to practice that. And it's really hard. Um, and it it is something that you really have to work at. It is like, you know, it's like training for a marathon. You got to work at it.

SPEAKER_00 36:31

Well, I think the saying no and and then thinking about the people around you and really using that as a mentoring opportunity, right? Um, that you can connect your work um to other people, the junior faculty, uh, PhD students. Um, I suspect that, you know, was that was that modeled for you, or did you just kind of figure that out?

SPEAKER_01 36:55

Um I think that was slightly modeled for me. Um my mentors very similarly, right, with with with you, you know, they were working mostly with men and there was no opportunity to say no. Because if you say no, again, just like you said, the door's shut. Um, and so, you know, I think um one of my mentors was told, um, okay, I know you're on maternity leave, but get back, just get back as quick as you can, right? Like, so there is still this gap of understanding. I think I think we're getting there, right? It's getting better. There was a little, there was some modeling for me, but I am learning that we have to be able to have the conversation about what life outside of work looks like so that we can actually be able to make sure we can do the work that we're doing here at work and understand that people have a life outside of work. Um, I think that's just been the disconnect of like you're at work, it's it's like severance, right? You're at work, you're at work. Um, but that's not the way it works at all. And life is life is involved in work. And I want to hear about my my team's um, you know, world outside of work as well. And so I I again, I think it was it, there was a little bit of modeling, and I am learning how to model that better for my um employees as well. So again, I think this is a we're getting there, a journey.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

Yeah, it's definitely a journey. Well, this is this is my last question, Katie. You've been you've been awesome and you've shared so much. What a what a great education. But I want to ask you who is a woman, a woman in science, past or present, that you'd love to have coffee with and why?

SPEAKER_01 38:46

Oh, that is such a great question. I think that the woman in science that I would like to sit down with would be uh Jane Goodall. Um I I love um animals. I have a strong passion for animals, and I think she really set the stage of women in science. And I don't know, I just I would love to be able to have a conversation um with her and and and learn about how she she got into this, how she did it, how she created that space and also just that level of curiosity um that she clearly had just to be able to do the work that she did. So I think that's who I would um want to have coffee with.

SPEAKER_00 39:29

Yeah, I like that. I think you know, one of the things that she did so incredibly well was to communicate the importance of her science and what she was interested in to the masses, right? That we, you know, really understood, you know, the importance of maintaining environments, you know, for for for animals or chimpanzees, as the case may be. Um she's she's been she's amazing. Well, Katie, thank you so much for sharing your story, your science, and your very real life with us today. Um I know that a lot of our listeners will see themselves, you know, in your path, um, in your your juggling act, uh, and to really be inspired by really how intentionally you've built your career. That's that's really come through for me. Uh and to our listeners, um if you enjoyed this episode of She Leads Science, please follow, rate, and share it with somebody who would benefit from hearing from women leading science in the real world. And we'll look forward to seeing you next time. Thanks again, Katie. Thank you.