SHE LEADS SCIENCE
She Leads Science is a podcast where women share their journeys in medicine, public health, and scientific discovery. From the lab bench to the park bench, from classrooms to policy rooms, we will explore how women are shaping the future of health. With each episode, we will bring you real stories, practical wisdom, and fresh perspectives from women at every stage of their careers.
SHE LEADS SCIENCE
NiCole Keith and Bill Roberts - They Lead Science
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In this episode of She Leads Science, Dr. Liz Joy is joined by Dr. Bill Roberts and Dr. NiCole Keith for a deeply personal conversation about mentorship, science, leadership, and the relationships that shape careers. Dr. Roberts, a family and sports medicine physician and longtime leader in athlete health, endurance-event medicine, heat illness, and injury prevention, mentored both Dr. Joy and Dr. Keith. Dr. Keith, a nationally recognized scientist in physical activity, health equity, aging, and community health, reflects on how mentorship influenced her path and leadership. All three guests share a remarkable connection as past presidents of the American College of Sports Medicine. Together, they explore how mentoring opens doors, builds confidence, advances equity, and creates a professional legacy. The conversation also highlights the importance of science that is practical, trusted, community-centered, and passed forward to the next generation.
Welcome back to She Lead Science. I'm your host, Dr. Liz Joy. Today's episode is especially meaningful to me because I am joined by two people whose careers, leadership, and friendship are deeply connected to my own, Dr. Bill Roberts and Dr. Nicole Keith. Bill Roberts is a family and sports medicine physician, professor emeritus in the Department of Family Medicine and Community Health at the University of Minnesota, and a longtime leader in sports medicine, endurance event medicine, athlete health, heat illness, injury prevention, and clinical care. His research gate profile lists more than 250 publications with expertise spanning sports science, injury prevention, sports injuries, exercise science, motion analysis, muscoskeletal disorders, athletics training, and sport biomechanics. Nicole Keith is a professor at Indiana University and a nationally recognized scientist whose work is focused on physical activity, health equity, minority health, health disparities, aging, fitness, and community-based approaches to improving health. Her research gate profile lists her expertise in physical activity, endurance, body composition, heart rate, physical fitness, health disparities, health equity, and minority health. And here's where the conversation becomes a little more personal. Bill served as a mentor to both Nicole and me. All three of us went on to serve as president of the American College of Sports Medicine. Bill and I were clinical practice partners for three years. He also introduced me to my husband, which is either one of his greatest mentoring successes or the most high-stakes referral of his career. Today we're going to talk about mentoring, not as an abstract comment or concept, but as something that changes careers, builds confidence, opens doors, and sometimes changes your whole life. We'll also talk about Bill's and Nicole's individual scientific contributions, their leadership in ACSM, and what it means to build a professional legacy through people. Bill and Nicole, welcome to She Leads Science. I am so happy to have both of you here. Thanks for having me. Happy to be here. Awesome. Well, uh, we have a lot to cover, so we're going to get started. Uh Bill, let's start with you. Uh, you have mentored a lot of people over your career. When you met Nicole and me, did you have any idea what you were getting yourself into?
SPEAKER_01No. But I really wasn't expecting to get myself into anything but rather open doors for the two of you because I I thought I thought I saw potential.
SPEAKER_03Well, um, I'm I'm really glad you saw potential in me uh because you introduced me to my husband, um, as I mentioned. So I feel like we should clarify at the outset uh was that mentoring, matchmaking, or just another example of a sports medicine referral network?
SPEAKER_01That was a hard question to answer. I I think I would put it in the mentoring category. Uh, matchmaking wasn't one of my goals at the time, particularly since you were a partner and uh of mine, and Jim was in a different geographic location. I think probably the Japanese word raku uh probably covers the best, it's roughly translated as joyful accident, and that might be the best word to describe it.
SPEAKER_03I love that. I love that. Well, well, um, 30 years later, we're still uh very joyful. Um, Nicole, you and I both had Bill as a mentor, and we both became ACSM presidents. Um, you know, should ACSM actually study him as an intervention?
SPEAKER_00Well, seriously, I think the answer is yes. Um, and for those of us who study mentoring and leadership as a science, uh, Bill would make an excellent case study. And also in thinking about that question and personal connection, it's a little known fact, Liz, that you and I went to the same high school. And so I was also thinking that maybe our high school should be studied as a case um investigation of leadership and training.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let's do a call out to Highland Park High School in St. Paul, Minnesota.
SPEAKER_00Go, Scotsman.
unknownWoohoo.
SPEAKER_03Oh, too funny. Oh my gosh. I think we're both in the Athletic Hall of Fame there as well.
SPEAKER_00I have no idea, but now I have to go check.
SPEAKER_03Well, you know, there's so much we can talk about. Um, I do want to talk about your science uh to both of you, um, as well as your leadership. And obviously, we're gonna spend a lot of time talking about mentoring, both your roles as uh your experience as mentee and uh your roles as mentors. Um but let's start with your paths. And Bill, you know, your work has you know covered a lot in clinical sports medicine, particularly around um endurance um sport and exertional heat illness, injury prevention, um, and athlete safety. Um I'm curious, you know, did your career follow a plan or did interesting questions and interesting people keep pulling you in different directions?
SPEAKER_01I think the latter that is uh, you know, things would pop up and I'd I'd I'd I'd pursue them out of interest because they uh seemed like they were relevant to what I was doing at the time. Um and uh if you don't look in the corners and open the doors, you never get anywhere. So I I think that uh that that sort of my path through uh fell on me more than anything.
SPEAKER_03So that leads me kind of to the next question, because you know, you and I are both um clinicians, and um we learn a lot from our patients um and the communities that we care for. So um again, my curiosity is around whether or not you were, you know, informed. Um, your questions came from practicing in the real world and and how did that end up shaping the research questions that you asked and cared about?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I think that working kind of real world medicine uh puts you in front of of the questions that that become obvious when you when you're sitting there thinking, well, how am I going to approach this? Um the uh things I uh cared about were high school athletes, uh the my patients that were participating in in endurance events, and and I I enjoyed uh doing uh event coverage like the USA Cup Soccer Tournament. And and uh I I tried to look at those as potential databases and uh how and look at how I could use what I was learning there to inform others so their their care would be better.
SPEAKER_03I like that. Yeah, that's great. Um Nicole, your your research often asks not just whether physical activity works, but how to make it accessible and meaningful for people and communities who face real barriers. Um, where did that commitment come from?
SPEAKER_00Um, it came, I think, from observation. And early on, obviously I was um able to be in education, but I also was able to shadow physicians and um federally qualified health centers and clinics and shadow other professionals in sectors like public safety um and urban housing and development. And I saw across all of those sectors that physical activity was this low-hanging fruit that could impact health. And also, while physical activity doesn't really cost any money, um, it seemed that people who were in low resource communities were having less of an opportunity to be physically active. Um, and so I wanted to investigate why that was and how we could all work together across sectors to create strategies to improve physical activity.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I love the common thread here is that you know both of you kind of chose research paths based on your your observations, right? And um, and I think core to being a scientist, you know, is that you you have that that curiosity that you are observant, you know, and then you ask questions based on that. And that, you know, often informs the work that you do. So um you guys definitely both share that quality for sure. Um, and I think you know, both of you have have have your science is also informed policy. Um, you know, Bill, definitely yours around um, you know, endurance events and heat. And Nicole, you know, yours around um, you know, physical activity and in opportunities for people, you know, who are more disadvantaged. Um, and I'm curious, Nicole, you know, was there definitely a moment when you realized that your science, you know, could also be a form of advocacy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it started really early, actually, Liz. Um, my mom and dad were both advocates for civil rights and human rights. My mom actually became the commissioner of human rights for the state of Minnesota. So I saw this really early on and started working toward it. And then as a professional, there's this opportunity when Russ Pate and Bill Cole invited me to chair the National Physical Activity Plan, which put me on the Physical Activity Alliance board. We don't learn about policy in our PhD programs. It's not even mentioned. We're in the lab. Um, we might get to be in the community, but you know, going to the State House or Capitol Hill was not a thing. And when I joined those groups, I saw that it was absolutely necessary to not just build the science, but also advocate to it to policy and decision makers.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think, you know, again, a great example that neither of your careers have really, you know, fit into a narrow lane. You know, um, Bill, you moved across clinical care, event medicine, research, professional leadership, and Nicole, you know, you've moved across science, health equity, aging, leadership. Um you know, you're again great examples of of how um, you know thinking and acting kind of outside your lane actually can lead to a bigger impact. So I'd like to talk a little bit now about each of you and your in your you know kind of defined areas of of science. And um, Bill, starting with you, you know, we've talked about your work in endurance events um and uh particularly around heat illness. Um, what have you learned about protecting athletes, you know, while still you know supporting and encouraging participation?
SPEAKER_01Uh well you know, when the gun goes off, as Marcus said, go as fast as you can. And all the stuff that we've tried to teach people about safety and you know moderating their activity and the heat and those kinds of things, just go out the window. Um and you know, athletes are really out there to do their best and to win. And and uh I I think to protect athletes and safe participation, you know, you know, safety has to come before the gun goes off. Because you have to make some decisions about whether it's actually safe to be out there. And we need to have the courage to say uh this isn't safe and and cancel or postpone or modify events when the opportunity arises. And we have data to support that change.
SPEAKER_03What do you think that, you know, there's a lot of sports medicine physicians, right, who are doing event coverage and um and uh, you know, they get probably some limited experience, you know, in in their um medical training, whether that's you know, residency training or fellowship training, um, you know, because there's a lot of volunteers out there, you know, covering a lot of sporting events, you know, like you know, kids' soccer tournaments, you know, that happen in the summer, you know. Um what do you think that sports medicine clinicians still need to understand better about you know some of the particularly some of the heat-related risks, you know, in summer sports?
SPEAKER_01Well, I I that just sound like uh uh uh a recording, but you know, when the gun goes off, the athletes are out to win. And all of our intent well-intentioned advice just goes out the window. So, you know, we have to be prepared to take care of the things that that we know will likely go wrong uh for at least some people who are out there when they uh going hard when they shouldn't. Um and I I think that if we could get across to physicians that that they need to be prepared for all the possibilities that can occur that that'll make make it safer for the kids out there. Yeah. Adults.
SPEAKER_03For sure, for sure. Um, Nicole, shifting to you, you know, your some of your recent publications and projects, you know, include uh physical activity barriers and facilitators among underrepresented minority populations, socioecologic approaches to promoting physical activity in low-income neighborhoods, and work related to both physical activity policy and equity. But I'm curious, what do these studies tell us about why simply telling people to move more is not enough?
SPEAKER_00You know, Liz, um, I think it I can liken it to telling people to eat healthier foods or to telling young people get better grades. Um, these things just don't happen on their own. Be physically active. Um, it's really um prevalent in our society that there are opportunities, there are programs put in place so that people can eat healthier foods. Um, there are programs put in place so that students can get better grades. Um, of course, there have to be programs in place so that people can be physically active. Just telling them is not enough. Um, it's up to us. And I, you know, listen to Bill talk about courage and also talk about preparation. And so we have the academic preparation and also professional experiences to know what's good for people, but being courageous enough to go outside of our comfort zone and to advocate for policy systems and environments so that we create um a place for people to be healthy, um, policies for people to be healthy and systems in which they can be healthy is also really important. And those things don't happen on their own.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, and I think um, you know, another thing is that uh a lot of times, you know, policies are are made, you know, by people who are not, you know, living the same experience, right? And um one thing I've heard you talk about before is the importance of designing interventions with communities rather than for communities. And I wonder if you could talk just a little more about that so our listeners understand that fundamental difference.
SPEAKER_00Sure. So I was very blessed to grow up in a well-resourced community with highly educated parents. Um and when I started doing my work, um I learned really quickly not to approach my work um from a deficit model, meaning um that I wasn't going into communities to help them get better because they have so many deficits, but instead that they have so many contributions to education that they may not get to share. These don't show up in journals, they don't show up in books, um, they show up from um shared history of experiences and learning from that shared history and experiences and combining it with what we've learned in our labs and in classrooms, um, in our own personal experiences is really important. I cannot tell people who live in low resource communities um what's best for them because I actually don't live in one myself and I never have. And so it's really important for me to go in those communities, spend time, um, and anybody who's doing this work to do the same and find out what they can teach us, um, and certainly what they can give or contribute to science. And I always say when I walk in, is that physicians Liz like you and like Bill can only do evidence-based practice on people like us, uh, people who are black or another minority, or people who um come from low-income backgrounds, if you have data that show um how to treat them and what to tell them. Otherwise, you're really just making decisions based on white men. Um, and that's not who we are. And um, and so everyone should be contributing to science. And and that message has worked. And that's a message I continue to convey as I do this really important community-based work.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think I think people would have more trust, you know, in science and in the outcome of research, you know, if they were involved in it, you know, and we're we're really having a significant challenge right now in the United States and I suspect globally, you know, about the mistrust in science. Um, so, you know, encouraging people to um participate and engage um, you know, in science, and and that's on us, you know, as scientists, you know, that we're involving um our populations and community members. Um, it will make for a much uh better outcome, um, both in terms of the science and its translation into uh public health, public policy, and clinical medicine for sure. Well, I'm gonna shift the conversation again to mentorship, which is really the thread that connects the three of us. Um and uh Bill, we'll start with you. Um I'm curious, um, you know, you've mentored people, you know, who are very different from one another. Um, how do you adapt your mentoring style to the person in front of you?
SPEAKER_01That question made me think for a while. Um, I my goal with mentees is to try to open the doors for them and nudge them toward their future possibilities. I don't really have an agenda set in in mind for them uh uh to uh to try to accomplish, but just to get out there and think about what they would like to do and and and I try to help them find ways to do that if I can.
SPEAKER_03So um kind of a three-part question that you you started to answer, but maybe you could go a little deeper. How do you know when to give advice, when to open the door, and when to get out of the way?
SPEAKER_01Well, for most of the people I've been involved with, all I have to do is open the door and just get out of the way before I get run over. Uh uh there have been a few that I've had to kind of nudge along a little bit more. And uh I try to do that gently uh and with with encouragement uh rather than uh breaking out the bull whip and snapping it. Uh I think that that people respond well to to encouragement that's nice, and don't respond well when when whatever's being said of them gets their hackles up. So so I you know, I I try to think, you know, be a nice person. Uh how would you like to be instructed if you were in their shoes? And uh what can I do? They stay out of their way once they get rolling.
SPEAKER_03So, Bill, I'm thinking, you know, about you know what I experienced with you as a mentee, you know, very early on in my career. I mean, I finished my fellowship, I joined your practice and practiced alongside you for three years. And I think um, you know, what helped me, you know, was just uh observing you. I mean, we've talked a lot about observation already on this conversation today. Um, but you know, just seeing all the different things you did, you know, caring for your patients, you know, being on the school board, um, you know, so being involved in your community and recognizing that being involved in the school board allowed you to have, you know, an influence over policy. Um, you know, watching you uh, you know, write um write papers, you know, um serving as the medical director for the Twin Cities Marathon, you know, you were uh the classic kind of quadruple threat, right, of clinical care, education, research, and leadership. And um, and it was just so impactful. So watching that really helped me a lot because I thought, well, that's the kind of doctor I want to be, right? And I think the other part was that you didn't just mentor, you know, but you sponsored, right? And you encouraged me to do to review articles for journals, you know, that that would make me a better writer. And a couple of times I would do a review. And you you would ask me to turn it into you, and it would come out to me with a lot of red that I had just hadn't really, you know, um reviewed it quite carefully enough. So I learned to be a better writer, you know, right out of the gate. Um, because not only were you mentoring, but you were sponsoring and you were creating opportunities for me. And so, you know, that was um, you know, just incredibly valuable, let alone just all the introductions to people, you know, both locally and nationally. It made such a huge difference in in my life. Um, so Nicole, that's my story with Bill. You know, what what did Bill give you as a mentor that made a difference for you?
SPEAKER_00First of all, Bill um almost embraced me immediately. We met in this random way that we don't have time to talk about, but it was in an elevator. And so when you talk about the elevator pitch, I wasn't pitching anything, I was just being nice, and Bill was being nice, and he decided to take some interest in me. And so Bill was president-elect of ACSM um in the elevator when I met him. And um he invited me uh to everything. Um, from the it was a Thursday, he invited me to the banquet on Friday. I had never been to the awards banquet before. Um, I sat at the table with you, Liz, and don't think Jim was there that time. I had not yet met him, which is another inside joke about um how you and I hit it off because we would joke a lot during those dinners. But Bill introduced me to his family, and he invited me and my kids and um to get together when we were in Minnesota visiting home. And he was just genuine. And he showed me that someone who did all the things that you just described, Liz, um, could also just be a genuine person who showed empathy and who cared about people. And it taught me as a leader that I didn't have to be cutthroat and I didn't have to have a great big ego. All I had to do is stay true to my values and that uh leadership would come. Um, and that's what he did for me. He did open the door. I'm not gonna say he got out of the way. He kind of pulled me through it and then left me there and said, I expect you to do these things. Um, and because we were from different disciplines and I couldn't let him down, I did them, um, but he did not hold my hand. He was like, Here you go, go do it. Um, and he was there along with me every step of the way. Um, you know, I always give him all the credit in the world. What I will say is there are 200 plus proteges or mentees, as Bill referred to, who Bill can say he's their grandfather. Um, if you talk about a parent-child relationship, because these 200 um faculty members and students um who have mentors through ACSM wouldn't, if not for Bill Roberts, and um his ability to show me what is possible if somebody just takes your hand and pulls you through a door.
SPEAKER_03I love that. Well, there you go, Bill. You're like you're influencing so many, you have influenced so many people in your career, and I know you know that, right? But uh, you know, so much gratitude.
SPEAKER_01Very much longer.
SPEAKER_03So um, you know, Nicole, you are you, you know, you are an amazing mentor. Um, and uh we're gonna talk more about that. But um, while we're on the subject of Bill, I'm curious about, you know, what parts or aspects of of Bill's mentoring style, you know, has carried into your own mentoring?
SPEAKER_00So I have learned that mentoring someone doesn't mean that you're creating a mini-me. Um that um you can give people advice. You can know nothing about their area of discipline and still give them advice um on how to pursue um their professional goals. I learned that from Bill, that he had no idea what I did. Um, I had no idea what he did until I had the opportunity years later to see his CV. And I was like, oh my goodness. And this man who has all of these accolades didn't really care about that and just said, like Bill mentioned, I see something in you, go get that thing and bring it out of you. That's what I've learned. Um, there have been people that I've mentored and it just didn't work out because they wanted me to tell them what to do. And I couldn't. It's kind of like community-based participatory research. I don't know what you've experienced every step of the way. So you have to take your own experiences and make them work for you. Um, and so what I've learned to answer your question, Liz, is you can't tell people what to do. Um, well, you can tell them what to do, but you can't tell them how to do it. They've got to learn from their own experiences how it is best for them to accomplish their goals. Yeah, that's that's for sure.
SPEAKER_03It's I guess it's part of the you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make them drink. Um and uh we do a lot of that in in medicine and science. And and I think that um, you know, mentorship and sponsorship, you know, creating opportunities or helping to create opportunities for people, you know, are frankly critical in terms of building that next generation of scientists. And um it's so which is why I really wanted to, you know, focus our conversation on this because it's just so critically important. And um, you know, the three of us also, you know, share the experience um of serving as president of the American College of Sports Medicine, which is you know a remarkable connection, uh, really. Um and I know that uh that experience had, you know, huge impact on my life and I and likewise your you know, Bill, when you became ACSM president, because you were the first of the three of us, uh, what did you hope to contribute?
SPEAKER_01Well uh my goal at the time was to try to uh integrate family medicine uh into the structure and function of the college. Um most of the things in in the college from the medicine side were pretty much orchestrated by orthopedics and uh cardiology. And I thought we had a lot to offer. And we were the we were the ones with the broad background that could do almost everything and anything, uh, from delivering babies to uh taking care of people uh on their deathbeds. So I I thought what I'd what was trying to do was to to make that known so that we would be a uh a bigger force within the college.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I think you know what family medicine brings to the college is, you know, we have this womb-to-tomb, you know, um professionalism. You know, we deliver babies, you know, as you said, we care for people at end of life and everything in between. And I do think that um, you know, sports and exercise um is a big part of people's lives, and um, and we do have the perspective, a unique perspective on that. Um, Nicole, you know, what did it mean to you to become ACSM president as a as a black woman scientist and leader?
SPEAKER_00So I was ACSM president in 2020 and 2021, and there was a little thing called the COVID-19 pandemic going on during that time, and so my experience was different um than um everyone else's experience, except for Bruce Gladden, who was 2021-2022. But during that time, during um the stay-at-home order, there were lots of things going on around um social justice, um, vaccines, um public safety, public health and safety, things that are really unrelated to physical activity. Um, but with uh the platform as president during a pandemic, I felt the responsibility um to not shy away from those issues. Um so being black, um, and I still keep it on my desk, people can't see, but I still have my Black Lives Matter button. Um I had uh the opportunity um to talk about um social justice for black people, also social justice for Asian Americans, because during that time there was a horrid, horrendous attack on Asian Americans as well. Um and this was a place that ACSM had not gone historically, um, but to use that platform as an advocate of social justice through physical activity, I could talk about social justice in other areas. Um, also as a Black woman in doing those things, I let both women and um underrepresented minorities or people who are underrepresented in science and medicine say, I can really stick to my values and still do my job and still progress within our profession.
SPEAKER_03You know, kind of along those same lines, um, you know, can you also talk a little bit about what you learned about, you know, visibility and representation in leadership?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so um I had some great leaders in addition to Bill and many others who I love to mention, um, people I don't talk about very much, um, who have influenced me greatly, um, are sports medicine physicians, um, like Carly Day and Kate Ackerman, and you, Liz, you all operate outside of the box and um use your platform for women in science, um, for people who are disadvantaged in science. And I remember um my first conversation with Carly. Let me know, I can look away from what I do and use this platform to really make a difference in the world, that people are going to listen to us because of our position, people who are policymakers, but also people who are who are in high school or in college to say you can do this too. Um, and that is really what is most important if about having this platform is those who are following, they're watching. And those who come after us are also watching. And um we're in this really sweet spot where we can make a difference with people from the past or who are in the past and also people who are coming up behind us in the future.
SPEAKER_03So, you know, we we we are all part of, you know, the American College of Sports Medicine as a professional organization, but we have other professional homes, right? You know, um where we work, um, you know, other organizations that we may volunteer with. Um you know, Nicole, you've had such an integral role, you know, in developing a leadership development program at ACSM. Um so I have uh two questions for you. Uh one is, you know, what do professional organizations do well, you know, when it comes to mentoring and developing leaders? And then what do organizations like ACSM need to do better?
SPEAKER_00So, you know, I've been a member of ACSM um for three decades and um not three full decades, but across three decades. And um I've seen a lot of changes. And so what I can say um professional organizations in general do well is bringing people together and offering networking opportunities, also um presenting education so that people can take it back and um people that they're teaching or training can learn um from what they learned at these professional meetings. Um, that is what they do really well. Um, ACSM in particular has gone out on a limb to say we're gonna invest in this leadership development program and support our trainees. That has to continue to happen. Um, and so what they can do better is to continue doing what they've been doing. Uh the concern is with this, with the shrinking of membership to professional organizations, with the shrinking of attendance to professional meetings, that professional organizations are cutting back on what's most meaningful to people as they come into these professional organizations and as they attend meetings. Um, now is a time where um there has to be a way to financially figure out how we're going to continue to offer these opportunities to our students and to our trainees so that they can benefit from people like Bill, from people like you, Liz, um, and um from all of the people who are coming after us. You know, Liz, I watched you do this podcast, but I've watched you go through different changes throughout your career. You are so brave, and you're such a role model to so many different people in both public health and in medicine. How will people get at a Liz Joy if not for these professional organizations offering an opportunity to open doors so that we can have time and space together? Uh that has to continue to happen.
SPEAKER_03Well, well, thanks. Thank you for the kind words. Um one of the things I'm really worried about, you know, and and Bill and I definitely experience this in clinical medicine, you know, where um our I'm worried about like most CME, you know, and continuing education is going virtual, not in person. Right. And in in the in you know, in medicine, what we're experiencing is that our institutions want us to belong to one organization and maybe go to one meeting, you know, and get the rest of our continuing medical education virtually or online or digitally, right? And that we're not having that that FaceTime. And, you know, we just came off the heels of the of the uh ACSM annual meeting, you know, that we hosted here in Salt Lake City. It was so fabulous. I think we had over 4,000 people attend the meeting. I really wanted to say hello to every single one of them because I was so excited to see people in person, right? And I got to sit down with one of my mentors, one of my other mentors, David Buckner, and we talked for 90 minutes. 90 minutes. It was like so amazing, right? To have that FaceTime. And I can tell you, it would not have been the same if David Buckner and I had talked on the phone, right? So I am worried about, you know, our our virtual world and how that is going to impact mentoring. And, you know, Nicole, as you you continue to kind of steward and and lead the, you know, the leadership um development program at ECSM. Are you having conversations about you know the impact our virtual world is having on mentoring? And then Bill, I'm gonna ask you the same question.
SPEAKER_00We are not having those conversations simply because um people understand, uh, people who are mentored or people who are mentors understand, like I said, the importance of time and space together. And this notion of the belonging to one discipline or attending one meeting ignores the necessity of multidisciplinarity. We work in a world, I started out talking about cross-sectors. Cross-sectoral strategies are imperative to the health and safety of our world. We can't stick within our discipline and make that happen. And so I can't go to just the kinesiology meetings and expect to impact public health or the built environment or parks, recreation, and outdoors. I have to go to these other meetings. Um, and ACSM is great because all those people are at that meeting, um, but it is really vast. And so I actually come in a day before the meeting starts and I leave a day after it ends simply because I want to have those 90-minute conversations and I want to talk to everybody. So it's on my dime, um, but it's okay uh to spend two extra days um just interacting with folks who happen to be around as well. I'm not alone in wanting to come early and wanting to stay late because we need that extra time to be together. Um, you can't do that through AI. Um, you you can't go on walks, um, you can't get sick at altitude. I still Salt Lake City was a little rough on me, but but as soon as I adjusted, it was time to go home. But if I had not spent that extra day, um, I wouldn't have had that period of adjustment. Um, but it was really wonderful. Like even connecting with people, like, I have a headache. Do you have a headache? And oh, you're at altitude, drink more water. Oh, yeah, that's right. I forgot about that. So um doing those things together and having that bond and sharing those memories cannot happen via AI. I meet with the people I mentor on Zoom or on Teams every month. And when we come together, we get the biggest hugs, we take pictures together, um, we go explore together and eat rest eat in restaurants and we we bring our families together. Um, but that connection is what keeps us going year in and year out, or keeps us coming year in and year out. So AI isn't part of the conversation because AI can't replace that human interaction.
SPEAKER_03Ben, uh, you know, uh an educator in in healthcare in uh you know, medical school, residency training, fellowship training, you know, um what are your what are your thoughts on you know this tension? I mean, I can't think of anything called other than that between, you know, the uh the desire to kind of you know uh reduce some costs um uh and have people access content, you know, in different ways, other than you know, a $500 or $1,000 plane ticket and $200 night hotel rooms. And you know, I recently attended a meeting where the meeting fee was $1,800. I mean, thank goodness ACSM does not charge that much. But, you know, yeah, it's really expensive. So, you know, as a as a former leader in a residency training program, like, you know, talk to us a little bit about this tension and and the outcome, you know, the the the what what what will happen.
SPEAKER_01What was your initial question? You asked so many there. I kind of got lost in the screen.
SPEAKER_03Well, I'm really talking about the impact that, you know, um, you know, our virtual world, you know, I mean, three of us are talking on Teams, I'm talking on Teams or Zoom as as our, you know, certainly Nicole and I are on Zoom and Teams a lot. Um, you know, we're not in person as much. Um, and when it comes to going to uh uh even conferences, you know, uh people are being encouraged to get their continuing medical education virtually and not having that FaceTime. And I'm concerned about the impact that will have on mentoring and and will probably disproportionately affect women.
SPEAKER_01Well well, nothing really replaces face-to-face time. I mean, you just don't get the subtleties and you don't get the you don't get the nuances that occur in in face-to-face interactions. Um my daughter just emailed me uh yesterday and said, you know, we only got this many credits for ACSM. And she was used to the old ACSM where, you know, you went to the meeting, you were pretty much covered for the year for a for AFP. You got enough credits, and and uh and she has the same thing we had in Minnesota. We have have to have a number of credits for state. So uh she's like in a panic thinking, well, how am I gonna get these other credits? And you know, I I suggested that she look into claiming the work that she's gonna do with Special Olympics here the next couple weeks uh as a volunteer teaching and and uh and helping uh with cares uh as a CME project that she could submit for her CME. So looking for alternate ways to get CME that that have that face-to-face and personal interaction, I think is going to be helpful. Um I'm not a big fan of uh of uh looking up uh an article, reading it, answering a couple questions, and turning it in for credit. That just uh doesn't it doesn't stick with me very well. Um my learning i is mostly hands-on. I mean I learn much better if I got my hands on with the person that's instructing me to to do the process and make the cut or uh uh pull out the bad parts, you know, whatever it is that we're doing. I I do better uh with motor kind of learning than I do with uh other types. So so I I I like hands-on I like being there in the moment for people to uh do my both my teaching and my learning. And uh it's it's amazing to me how much I learn from people who I'm supposed to be teaching. So you know it goes both ways.
SPEAKER_03Yeah that's for sure. I'm gonna shift this again and um talk a little bit about communication. And we've we've kind of touched on it in our conversation so far, but I I think this podcast always includes a conversation on communication because science only matters if people can understand and and use it. And Bill, you've you've spent your career communicating with athletes families clinicians professional organizations. What have you learned about communicating risk without creating fear?
SPEAKER_00Well it's pretty hard to avoid fear when there's true risk um but in trying to put it in perspective um you know every time you go out and drive a car you're putting yourself at a tremendous amount of risk whether you realize it or not um and uh anything that since we're and be in the moment helps reduce that risk and uh the uh you know you're as a physician you really tie in to people at some of their most uh uh scary and intimate moments uh when you're talking about you know what are we gonna do with grandpa or you know what about uh my daughter's uh uh current medical problem how are we gonna approach that you know things that really um uh are are very emotional for the people that you're trying to uh help uh and so it's for me in part it's trying to keep that uh that in check and not getting so involved that I lose my objectivity and lose my ability to to help direct people in the right direct in the in the right on the right path so Nicole you know as we think about the the future and you know I kind of preface this question you know in my remarks about you know the the tensions you know with a a desire that people do virtual and digital you know continuing education versus in-person but you know what do you think mentoring should look like in the next generation of science and medicine it has to continue um it has to be thoughtful it should be evidenced based um and so that we're following the science so that we can defend it um before it was just something that happened and some of the mentoring wasn't done real well or certain groups got excluded from mentoring because you know people are most comfortable in homogeneous groups um people perform better in diverse groups and there's a whole lot of science about that um but unless that's introduced talked about shared with like you're doing here today Liz uh people don't understand follow the science we are scientists and we should be following scientific practice when it comes to mentoring and um developing the future generations and so what it should look like is that it's evidence based um and that there are processes that are being followed that can be supported and defended.
SPEAKER_03Okay you guys we are um coming to the end of an amazing conversation I'm sure we could keep talking you know for a considerable amount of time but we're gonna move into rapid fire so uh so be be quick with quick and short with your answers. Bill starting with you again buddy best thing about being a mentor fostering discovery most overrated piece of career advice you know I I can't tell you that I had an uh career advice that was overrated I I tried to follow them all mine was what's your five year plan you need a five year plan okay I hated that question hate hate hate hate hate I missed that one you're right uh I I didn't like that either um okay Bill still on you most underrated skill in sports medicine listening can you say it again listening listening uh what's one thing you learned from mentoring Nicole what's one thing you learned from mentoring me same okay Nicole your turn best thing about being a mentor watching them pass you and be more successful ooh love that one a leadership lesson you learned the heart transparency I'm laughing up back here in Salt Lake City a woman in science you would love to have coffee with Donna Shalala she's the former secretary of health and human services I heard her talk in college I've always wanted to meet her love that one thing that Bill taught you that stuck uh to be true to your values family first one thing you now teach your own mentees the same be true to your values and family first Bill one word one word to describe ACSM umbrella Nicole family for me I think it would be multidisciplinary so there you go well listen you guys uh thanks so much um this has been great uh the conversation's been a beautiful reminder that science is not only built through papers grants clinics classrooms and professional societies but it's built through relationships you know Bill your mentorship helped to shape both Nicole's path and mine you model what it means to take people seriously to open doors share opportunities and stay connected long after that formal mentoring relationship ends. And Nicole your career might remind us that mentorship is it's not just about individual success, it's about equity, access, representation, and making sure the next generation can see themselves in science and leadership. And for me personally, this conversation is a reminder that mentorship and friendship can change a career a professional society and field. And to our listeners if you enjoyed this episode of She Leads Science please follow, rate and share it with someone who has mentored you, sponsored you, challenged you or helped you to imagine a bigger version of your future thanks so much you guys. Thanks for having