#9: Healing as a Family with Shira Burstein, LCSW

In Episode 9, we sit down with Shira Burstein, LCSW, to take a deeper look into the psychology of addiction and the critical role families play in the recovery process.

Shira brings her clinical expertise and real-world experience to help us understand how addiction impacts not just the individual, but the entire family system. We dive into how communication often breaks down during these difficult times—and more importantly, how to rebuild it in a healthy, productive way.

This conversation focuses on:

How families can move from conflict to collaboration

The importance of clear, honest, and supportive communication

Setting boundaries while still showing love and support

How to truly work together as a team during recovery

Why staying grounded in your values and true identity is essential—especially when things feel chaotic

Shira also shares practical tools families can begin using immediately, along with insights that help remove blame and replace it with understanding and direction.

If you’re navigating a loved one’s addiction—or supporting someone who is—this episode will give you a clearer path forward and remind you that you don’t have to do it alone.

Connect with Shira Burstein, LCSW:
Website: www.shirabursteintherapy.com
Phone: 203.979.5112
Email: bursteinshira@gmail.com

🎧 Watch on YouTube
🎙️ Listen on Spotify & Apple Podcasts

#GDCProject #AddictionRecovery #FamilySupport #HealingTogether #MentalHealthMatters #RecoveryJourney #StrongerTogether #CommunicationMatters #SupportSystem

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I went over it. I went over it too. Then I did highlights and stuff. It's just so much science. Um it's hard. Like uh I felt like I was stuttering a lot too. Welcome back to the GDC project. I'm sitting here with my new favorite co-host, my mom, um Maria. She did so great last time. We had such positive feedback. I wanted to have her back on to talk about our next topic. So you want to just say a little hope.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

I just wanted to say thank you so much for everyone that shared the podcast and reached out to me. It meant a lot because this is what we're trying to do through the GDC project is just make people aware and know that we're here if you need us, because you do need a community to get through such a struggle. So please reach out if you need us and please continue to share.

SPEAKER_00 0:57

So speaking of that community, we could promote the legacy circle. So our main goal is to help other families struggling through the addiction process with a loved one. The legacy circle is essentially that, that community, that support system, the knowledge behind it. We wish as a family we knew so much more when she was going through it. For sure. But it wasn't until after we lost her till we desired that knowledge. So it's now we're trying to provide that knowledge, provide our story, provide what we went through to others so they don't wait until it's too late.

SPEAKER_03 1:33

And to give Gabriella meaning.

SPEAKER_00 1:35

Yeah, give her a legacy.

SPEAKER_03 1:36

To give her a legacy and meaning. Everyone has a meaning.

SPEAKER_00 1:40

Everyone has a meaning. We have to like one of the things was to Ed Milette quote life doesn't happen to us, it happens for us. For us. So what is her purpose and what's her continued purpose? And I think and I believe that is to help other families go through her suffering and her struggles.

SPEAKER_03 1:58

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:59

Today's topic, my mom, my thought might be too scientific and a little boring, but what I wanted to do, um, what we wanted to do is take some onus off the individual and put it into the science behind addiction. That it is not a hundred percent our loved ones' fault. There is some stuff that happens within our brain, within our thought process. Not only the hormones, the actual structure of our brain is affected by addiction. So we wanted to give a little brief overview of kind of what that is and how it happens, and maybe some of our stories of maybe things we saw or affect us in our own lives.

SPEAKER_03 2:36

Plus, I think your perception of the addict is a little different if you know the science behind it.

SPEAKER_00 2:44

Yeah, because we always thought like this is her fault. This is her choice. What is she doing? Why is she doing it?

SPEAKER_03 2:50

Right.

SPEAKER_00 2:51

Not realizing that there's actual structural and hormonal changes.

SPEAKER_03 2:55

And that she was suffering.

SPEAKER_00 2:56

And that she was suffering, and we said she's a different person. But in reality, she actually was turning into a different person.

SPEAKER_03 3:03

She was two different people.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Two different people, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 3:06

Gabriella and the addict, Gabriela.

SPEAKER_00 3:08

And the addict, Gabriella. We didn't have different names for her, but we would say she's not herself today. Exactly. She's off. She's not herself.

SPEAKER_02 3:15

She's off.

SPEAKER_00 3:17

So these studies all pulled um off PubMed on addiction. First study, it's 2019. It's called the Neuroscience and Drug Reward Addiction. So the first thing drugs do, this is alcohol, cannabis, opioids, methamphetamines. They attack our dopamine system. Our dopamine system is known as the feel-good hormone. You find it uh, what did you say?

SPEAKER_03 3:46

Um walking, eating right, uh, having a good conversation, having a good weekend with your husband, all those things that make you happy.

SPEAKER_00 3:58

It make you feel good, make you happy. It's known as the feel-good hormone. So, what drugs and alcohol do is stimulate that hormone three to ten times more than we would normally get it. So, if you think about that as an issue, that's a huge issue. And that doesn't just happen with drugs and alcohol. It happens with sugar, it happens with social media. Um, all these large companies figured out ways to manipulate that dopamine system, and it's the biggest driver to all of our addictions. A simple way to understand this dopamine is the dopamine tells our brain something is worth repeating. So we all scroll social media. It's that extra little finger swipe. Yep, I need another one, I need another one, I need another one. That's the dopamine system in play. When something important happens, the dopamine signals the brain. Okay. And we like to think it as the feel-good hormone, but in reality it's not. It's the motivation and learning hormone. And this has been with us forever and it's essential to survival. It was meant for things like eating food and drinking water and building relationships and achieving goals and learning new skills. So, like my mom said, for an example, when you eat a good meal, that dopamine's released. When we exercise, that dopamine's released. When we accomplish a goal, that dopamine's released. Our brain learns that that felt good. Let's do that again. Now imagine with drug use that three to ten times higher than that normal system. How would that affect you?

SPEAKER_03 5:32

And it affects people, I feel, uh, differently, especially as addicts. Some could go, if they don't do drugs for five or six months, they're okay. They don't get that dopamine. I have to have it, I have to have it, I have to have it. Some people, after years, it comes back to them. I have to have it, I have to have it.

SPEAKER_00 5:53

And that's when the dopamine reward pathway becomes a problem.

SPEAKER_03 5:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

So when our brain experiences these super high dopamine spikes, that's three to ten times higher, it begins to learn something powerful. Our brains start to believe that that substance, that alcohol, that thing is so important for our survival that it begins to override the pathway. It begins to prioritize the drugs over our normal rewards like food, relationships, work, goals, and personal responsibilities. And we definitely saw that with Gabriella.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

That's why uh people on drugs would steal, do anything to get the drug. People I know from my community of uh parents of addicts, their children have come back from other countries to get the heroin and go to great lengths to get drugs. And it's probably because of that dopamine.

SPEAKER_00 6:43

It's a dopamine pathway.

SPEAKER_03 6:44

Saying, I need it, you gotta get it. We gotta get it no matter what. Let me steal, let me, whatever it takes, I need to do it to get the drug.

SPEAKER_00 6:52

And study number two is addiction hijacks the brain's learning system. This was a study called the Neurobiology of Addiction, also done in 2019. It is the study essentially says the same thing: the the hijacking of the brain's dopamine system. But it has a couple other little parts that I thought were pretty interesting to that is how triggers can activate that dopamine system. So even three, five, seven, ten years, relapse can happen really fast. A location, a person, a stress, emotional pain, boredom, routines. Our brain remembers the last time we were here, this drug was coming. And that anticipation creates that craving.

SPEAKER_03 7:39

That's why Gabriella wouldn't go to Capriccio's anymore because it was a trigger. And when she went to Texas to rehab, she goes, I can't come back because I'll I'll call my uh supplier or whatever. But then eventually, because probably the dopamine in her brain saying, I need the drug, I need the drug, even though you're out of the area, you got new people, you got new friends, it your brain starts applying that I need the drug no matter where you are. And I think that's what happened.

SPEAKER_00 8:08

So one of the other things that this study found is that um the dopamine system and the drugs also affect two different brain structures. One is the amygdala, which processes emotional memories, and one is the hippocampus, which stores contextual memories, so places, environments, and routines. So when those are activated, if you think about it, emotional memories and places, environments, and routines, trauma, trauma, trauma comes back, right? All of that can lead to that relapse. And our motivation system becomes biased towards the drug. Like, like you're thinking now, what makes me feel good? Walks.

SPEAKER_03 8:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

A hug. A hug, right? Good meal, good time with friends, good vacation. These things make me happy. Achieving a goal. When our dopamine system is overridden with the drugs, that becomes the priority. It's getting that. No matter what. No matter what, right? So yeah, we talked about that. Um, let's go into the next study. This one, this is where it starts to get crazy for me, is changes in the prefrontal cortex. So the drugs start to actually change our brain. Um, not just like the the um the hormones that can go into it affecting the dopamine, it actually starts changing the gray matter within our brain. So long-term drug use can damage the free prefrontal cortex, the brain region that is responsible for impulse control, decision making, and long-term planning.

SPEAKER_03 9:45

That's like it reminds me of the commercial way back when, when my kids were little, they'd have a frying pan and break an egg and say, This is your brain on drugs, and it'll be the egg frying. So, and that study made me think of that.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

Yeah. And if you think chronic substance use can reduce that gray matter in the region, weakening self-control and increasing compulsive behavior.

SPEAKER_03 10:08

And both of those are linked to addiction.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

Yeah. That's why addiction is not just willpower. So you're like, they you're like, oh, why can't they just make the decision? Why can't they just avoid it? If our brain has weaken self-control and increase compulsive behavior, it's like two things that counteract each other.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

And that's why things I think in every individual is so different. Like you and and dad were able to stop. You just stopped on a dime, said, I'm not gonna ruin my life or my marriage, my family. Gabriella couldn't stop.

SPEAKER_00 10:45

See, I I feel like I was able to stop with alcohol, but I still feel I struggle in other things in my life. Like now, currently, whether it's um my phone, food, I still struggle with weak self-control and increase increased compulsive behavior. I mean, I was talking to this about Stephen is the BED binge eating disorder, which is a real thing.

SPEAKER_03 11:11

That's what Gabriella got diagnosed the first time I had taken her to uh therapy. She was diagnosed with that. And then we went to the eating disorder clinic, and just one thing I think led to the other. So then she had gastric bypass. And I think, okay, so now the she doesn't have a binge eating disorder. So now she has an alcoholic disorder and then a drug disorder. So it kind of progressed because we we just put a band-aid on the binge eating disorder.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Like the more I think about binge eating disorder, it is an addiction disorder. Right? Because exactly once you eat, you can't stop until you almost feel like you're gonna throw up.

SPEAKER_03 11:51

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 11:52

Like I'm good, and then if something triggers me, I'm off the rails.

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Right.

SPEAKER_00 11:57

Like I could not I could eat basically perfectly all six, seven days in a row. Then one day will trigger like a two-day just continuous binge eating.

SPEAKER_03 12:08

But at least you're aware of it.

SPEAKER_00 12:10

Yeah, I'm aware.

SPEAKER_03 12:10

I'm aware you're aware of it. I think that makes it not okay, but you're aware of it and you're like, okay, I'm gonna do this today. Now I'm going back to my old way.

SPEAKER_00 12:20

But that doesn't think if it wasn't food.

SPEAKER_03 12:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:24

Right? I still don't have control.

unknown 12:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:27

Right? If it wasn't food, if it was alcohol, if it was something else, it could be really a lot more damaging to my life. Like the fact that I shouldn't just accept it. Like I should still try and work through it and figure it out and and figure out why my mind's working that way, why that happens to me, because it it does affect me negatively.

SPEAKER_02 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

Right. If we think about the definition of addiction, it's like when I don't have control over my decisions, and it's affecting my life in a negative way. Right. Like uh we talked about it was Matthew Perry when you were calling him Chandler.

SPEAKER_02 13:04

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:05

I have control, I have the choice over my first drink.

SPEAKER_03 13:09

That's like at the bakery I have control over my first cookie.

SPEAKER_00 13:12

And then after that.

SPEAKER_03 13:13

Once I have that one cookie, I'm done.

SPEAKER_00 13:16

You lose control. Yeah, a hundred percent. So it's like, what in the brain? Like, that's the dopamine system. The cookie tasted so good. I need another one.

SPEAKER_03 13:26

But the way sometimes now I think of it is okay, I'm gonna eat that cookie. That dopamine's gonna last two minutes and gone. So I'm gonna forget about that cookie.

SPEAKER_00 13:39

But think about what we just talked about. The dopamine teaches you that that's a good thing. Yeah that's worth repeating.

SPEAKER_03 13:45

So you have to have kind of a different conversation with yourself.

SPEAKER_00 13:50

Yeah. And that's the hard part because that dopamine's preset in there. It's like what taught us to survive. Whatever, 10,000 years ago. Yeah. To eat. To eat, right? I have to, that was good. I gotta do that again. But now the sugar, we're not supposed to eat a cookie full of sugar.

SPEAKER_03 14:07

No.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

So you think about alcohol, uh, methamphetamines, opioids, three to ten times. Sugar's the same, three to ten times that dopamine spike. So we're right back in there chasing the sugar. So when we talk about addiction, I don't like to just say drugs and alcohol. It's like what is affecting you in a negative way?

SPEAKER_02 14:25

Right.

SPEAKER_00 14:26

How can we learn what's going on in our brain? Because this isn't just drugs and alcohol. It's this is food, food. This is uh social media, this is negative thought patterns. Like we could be addicted to absolutely anything, right?

SPEAKER_03 14:40

And that's the number one, and what I'm I'm reading about now is to change the verbiage of your negative.

SPEAKER_00 14:47

Yeah, how do you talk to yourself?

SPEAKER_03 14:48

Oh, I'm never gonna be good. You have to say, I will be good.

SPEAKER_00 14:51

I will be good.

SPEAKER_03 14:52

So you have to change it in your brain, your verbiage.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Yeah.

unknown 14:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:56

How do you talk to yourself is very important.

SPEAKER_03 14:58

But important, very important in every decision you make.

SPEAKER_00 15:01

I don't know if it's uh Henry Henry Ford or uh maybe it was Shakespeare. It's like uh whether you think it think it true, or I don't know. I got I can't even think of the quote. But it's like you whether you think it is or you isn't, you're right.

unknown 15:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:13

Whether you think it's true or it isn't true, you're right.

SPEAKER_03 15:16

So you have to change like my life's never gonna be good. It's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

It's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

It's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_00 15:21

But it's not just you can that's where we'll we'll differ there. Because you can't just, it's gonna be good.

SPEAKER_03 15:27

You have to have something of it.

SPEAKER_00 15:28

That's where you have the level of levels of mindset, right? Levels of mind start start with the victim. Yeah, everything's terrible, everything's bad, all the woe is me, everything happens to me, everything bad happens to me. Right, right.

SPEAKER_03 15:41

So that needs to change immediately.

SPEAKER_00 15:42

Then the next level up we have pessimist. It's never gonna work out for me.

SPEAKER_03 15:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:46

Like, no matter what I do, it's not enough. Everything bad's gonna happen. So it's a little bit better than victim, but pretty damn close. Then you have the uh optimist, right? Everything's gonna work out great.

SPEAKER_03 15:59

But then they don't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

They don't do anything about it because they just believe it's gonna work out great. Then the realist, I know this shit sucks right now, but I'm gonna do the work to improve. Right. But what then above that, you have the they call it the curious competitor, where it's like, I'm gonna go do that stuff. I'm gonna put in the work, I'm gonna will myself to win. I'm gonna learn and figure it out. And a lot of times, addiction is associated with the victim mindset or the pessimist mindset. And that goes into what you're saying about how we talk to ourselves. So it's not like just I'm gonna have a good day. It's how am I gonna have a good day, and then I'm gonna do that stuff.

SPEAKER_03 16:35

Exactly. But I was reading um giving meaning to somebody that passed, and the guy that wrote the book, Dr. David Kessler, it's a very good book. Um, his son passed. And he went to visit a friend one year and his son had passed, and he was grieving and whatever. The second year he went and he had broken his arm, and and his friend said, Oh, you're always uh combating something. And he goes, No, I'm not. I'm always healing. So it's the way you talked about it. I'm going through this, but I am healing. It's not a bad thing. I am healing. And the Book of Joy teaches a lot of that. Yeah, the Book of Joy is a good read for whatever you're going through. It's a very good read.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah. So let's go back into that prefrontal frontal cortex and a changing the actual gray matter. So we have to think of the pre-frontal cortex as the CEO or control center of our brain. And it's responsible for things like impulse control we talked about. That's the ability to pause before acting. Okay. Decision making, weighing consequences before choosing, long-term planning, thinking about the future instead of immediate gratification, right? Judgment, determining what's safe, healthy, or appropriate, and self-regulation, controlling our emotions and behaviors.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

Yeah, I want to go back to that where you had said impulse. Gabrielle was all about impulse. Even as a teenager, when she was at the um the eating disorder, the the doctor that was treating her, so she's very impulsive, but she's in that teenage stage. But she never left that teenage safe. So when you look back at her life, we had so many signs of things.

SPEAKER_00 18:18

And that's what I like to think about this stuff. This is was her gray matter affected then? Could have been. Like could like I'm not just saying from because this doesn't state in these studies, it doesn't state what what the person was addicted to, right? Right. It just is like addiction. Right. Right? Addiction hijacks the brain learning system.

SPEAKER_03 18:40

Yeah, could have been her addiction to sugar or food.

SPEAKER_00 18:42

Or food. Or her first addictions. And maybe that changed her her prefrontal cortex. So into that impulsive, this this is going to feel good right now, but will hurt me later, does not exist.

SPEAKER_03 18:55

No.

SPEAKER_00 18:56

Right? It does not exist. That prefrontal cortex is what allows us to resist temptation. So if we think about temptation and the dopamine system, the dopamine system is telling me that cookie's gonna be fucking good.

SPEAKER_03 19:13

Yeah. That cookie, and you don't have the strength to resist it.

SPEAKER_00 19:17

And that prefrontal cortex is what allows you to resist it.

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:21

So if that's damaged, we think about like even um NFL players.

SPEAKER_01 19:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:25

A lot of times the CTEs that prefrontal cortex, that decision making, that impulse control, that long-term planning, judgment, that's really affected. So if we can't resist temptation and we have that thing telling us, hey, let's go, this is gonna be good.

SPEAKER_03 19:41

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:42

It's a scary combo to have.

SPEAKER_03 19:45

Um at whatever cost.

SPEAKER_00 19:48

At whatever cost. The cost doesn't matter. We we can't regulate that.

SPEAKER_03 19:51

No.

SPEAKER_00 19:52

So let's talk about why this explains uh what families often see. Why do they keep doing this when they know it's destroying their life? Why can't they just stop? They promised they wouldn't use again. So from the outside it looks bad or they're making bad choices, or it's a lack of willpower. But like we just said, it's like dopamine, no decision-making power. Is it really their fault or is their brain structure changing?

SPEAKER_03 20:20

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:21

Or maybe a little combination of both.

SPEAKER_03 20:22

Looking both looking both ways, yeah. A little of both, I think, looking back.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

So another change it makes to the brain, this was study number four. Addiction creates long-term brain changes and neuroplasticity. So the neuroplasticity in addictive disorders.

SPEAKER_03 20:43

So it has to, you're putting that poison in your body, it has to do a lot of damage.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

So, what is neuroplasticity means? Well, that means the brain rewires itself based on what we what we repeatedly do. Think and experience.

SPEAKER_02 20:56

Right?

SPEAKER_00 20:56

That's why I like always like to put think in addictions, because if we're always thinking negative, our brain is rewiring to think negative. Um, so over time the brain learns the substance equals a reward, the behavior equals relief, and the environment is active access to the drug. So the neural pathways get supported over and over and over and become stronger and stronger and stronger. So you're like what you say before, the person flew back from Europe.

SPEAKER_03 21:27

Yeah, they were giving uh a year in Europe on a farm to get sober, and they flew back. Yeah, couldn't take it after six months just to get the heroin. As soon as they landed, they got the heroin.

SPEAKER_00 21:39

Yeah. So the structural changes that occur, research shows several important brain changes that occur through this process. They're altered synaptic connections. That means our brains, our neurons are communicating differently through these connections called synapses. Well, that's not differently, and they always communicate through that. That's our learning pathway. So the repeated substance strengthens those certain synapses to craving reward anticipation and drug-seeking behavior. The more we do it, the stronger those connections get.

SPEAKER_03 22:10

Just think of uh I'm thinking of my dad now. He was addicted to Nyquil, anything that would put him to sleep, even though it wasn't a drug, the gummy, melatonin, gummies. And his brain, I just want to tell the story about the gummy. He'd always go like this to me. He needed a gummy to calm down. So one day I didn't have him at the bakery and I gave him an airborne. And he says to me, Oh my God, that gummy was so good. It really helped me relax and it melted in my mouth so well. It was just his brain was telling him, I'm gonna take this and I'm gonna feel better. Didn't matter what it was.

SPEAKER_00 22:50

So if you think about the structure brain-wise, gray matter in our prefrontal cortex is getting deleted. In our memory learning synapses, they are getting stronger. So we continue to learn over and over the drug, feels good, right? How do we get it? What the environment is, and those pathways are getting stronger and stronger. So think about like a child as a language riding a bike. Um anything you learn, those new, like you you never start knowing how to do it.

SPEAKER_02 23:21

No.

SPEAKER_00 23:22

Right? So those those synapses get stronger and stronger each and every time you do it. So if you think about drug addiction, every time you do it, that pathway gets stronger and stronger and stronger.

SPEAKER_03 23:33

And you need more and more and more.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

And you need more and more and more. So that's why I want to go into study number five, because I don't want to go too crazy with the science, like you said. There's a system that gets begins to be created called the anti-riward system. This was a study uh called Neuro Circuitry of Addiction. As addiction progresses, the brain develops an anti-reward system. This system produces anxiety, irritability, dysphoria, and emotional pain. So people keep using the drug is no longer used for pleasure, but to avoid the negative emotional state. So at the beginning, the drug is cool, it's exciting, it's fun, it's relieving you of all your stress. Then all of a sudden, it changes.

SPEAKER_03 24:22

You get anxious. And she'd always be anxious when she was on drugs.

SPEAKER_00 24:27

Yep. So the substance activate our brain's reward system. We talk about the large amounts of dopamine and feelings of euphoria, relax and relief, excitement. And this is why early, often substance use feels really rewarding, right?

SPEAKER_01 24:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:42

But as the addiction progresses, something very important happens in the brain. The brain begins to adapt to the drug and then it shifts into the anti-reward system. And this is a stress response network in the brain that becomes activated when the brain is no longer receiving the substance it has adapted to. So the instead of producing pleasure, the brain begins to produce negative emotional states, anxiety, irritability, dispress, depression, dysphoria, emotional discomfort, or restlessness and stress.

SPEAKER_03 25:10

And that's when you're not getting enough of the drug.

SPEAKER_00 25:12

Mm-hmm. So what happens? You take more and more and more and more.

SPEAKER_03 25:18

And that's why when you're coming down from it, all those things come up. I remember driving her to Norwalk Hospital, and I said, Are you going to detox? She goes, Well, if I had the drugs, I wouldn't be going at all. I'm going to get more drugs.

SPEAKER_00 25:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 25:32

Because she needed it to survive.

SPEAKER_00 25:35

So our brain is constantly trying to maintain a balance. It's a process called homeostasis. So homeostasis is figure our center, balance. It regulates our weight, our heart rate, our breathing, um, it our fluid levels in our body, right? It regulates so much of our body. It's called like think about it as a center. So when drugs repeatedly push the reward system really high, the brain tries to compensate by bringing it down. So it reduces the reward sensitivity, it activates stress systems, it lowers the baseline mood levels. And eventually the brain begins to operate in a negative emotional baseline when the drug is not present. In other words, without that drug, the brain now feels worse than normal.

SPEAKER_03 26:16

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

So we go from chasing the drug to feel pleasureful, then now we're chasing it just to be normal.

SPEAKER_03 26:22

And that's when I think the addiction happens at that point.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

Yeah. So it begins to shift from a pleasure to relief.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah. And you have to have it.

SPEAKER_00 26:29

And you have to have it to feel normal. To feel normal, yeah. To feel normal. Think like uh you go back to your dad. He was always depressed and anxious.

SPEAKER_03 26:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Even Gabriella, always depressed and anxious.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

Always had a problem. She had a black cloud over her.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

And this is why people often relapse, right? They may think things are going well, or why would they go back? Like things are going good. Why would they go back? Why would they relapse? Why would she go back to using that? But from their brain's perspective, it's just trying to escape the negative emotional state that they created by withdrawal. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:05

Right?

SPEAKER_00 27:05

So without the drug, it's this negative state, and that substance temporarily removes that discomfort. So even the relief is short term, the brain, the brain remembers that the drugs fix the problem.

SPEAKER_03 27:17

For a long time, I the brain, that's why you need that five year probably.

SPEAKER_00 27:22

Yeah. So that's the good news with any of this, is the brain can rebalance. Um, there's activities that help the brain's emotional stability, consistent sleep, exercise, good food, um, all affect the brain in a positive manner. Connection with others.

SPEAKER_03 27:38

Structure.

SPEAKER_00 27:38

Yep, structure, meaningful purpose, therapy, support programs. Uh, over time, the brain begins producing that uh natural emotional regulation again. So if we can think about important lessons for families, is this isn't understanding um this the understanding of this removes the shame.

SPEAKER_03 27:58

Correct.

SPEAKER_00 27:58

Right? It's not necessarily their fault. Addiction is not just chasing pleasure or they don't have the willpower, and that recovery requires patience, structure, support, and time. That not only the person or the individual or their emotions, their brain needs time to heal and re-regulate its emotional systems.

SPEAKER_03 28:21

It's a long-term situation, it's forever.

SPEAKER_00 28:25

So like, I mean, even when I was coaching with fitness and weight loss, it's like, when does this program stop?

SPEAKER_03 28:32

Never.

SPEAKER_00 28:33

Never. And I think that's one of the reasons why we wanted to start this GDC project. And I think we keep evolving and changing because we're going towards what we feel people need. Right? And I can generally go back to the family support. We have rehabs, we have detoxes, we have sober houses. I think we need each family to have the knowledge and be able to coach and guide the entire family through the process. Guide, hey, like this is a lifelong process.

SPEAKER_03 29:05

At least you could give them the information. We had none of this information.

SPEAKER_00 29:09

No, we also didn't try and get it.

SPEAKER_03 29:11

No, we didn't.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah. We I think we had the belief that it was just her willpower. Um, there was something, you know, she was making bad choices, bad decisions, yeah, not fully understanding that it's a brain disease, not fully understanding that is could be a trauma response.

SPEAKER_03 29:28

I I thought she was um she had a mental illness.

SPEAKER_00 29:34

Yeah. I thought that.

SPEAKER_03 29:36

I mean she wasn't.

SPEAKER_00 29:37

We still think that.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

But I think that mental illness could have been her brain. Could have been her brain dysfunction. I get they get into like imaging and brain scans and how they did it, but I don't think we need to really talk about those studies. I could put the links in the bio. Um, but how the PET scans, well, which is scanning your brain, see all like the areas of the lighting up, see the gray matter depreciating, um, see really how it damages your brain. Um, not just your willpower, not just something wrong with you, how the addiction is actually damaging our brains.

SPEAKER_03 30:15

And through not being an addict, recovering, it'll all come back.

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, after a long period of time. I'm sure there's lifelong brain damage.

SPEAKER_03 30:24

It depends how long you're using it. I think it depends how long you're using it.

SPEAKER_00 30:26

How long you're using for I think it depends how intense you were using. I think it depends what you're using. I think it depends on your nutrition, I think it depends on your sleep. I think there's so many variables within that, even for health. I think there's so many variables within that. Um, your environment, is there mold in your house? Like, yeah, there's so many variables.

SPEAKER_03 30:46

That's why everything is so individualized, I think.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

When you talk to people, it's it's so individualized.

SPEAKER_00 30:54

Yeah. What's your genetic makeup? Where did you grow up? What is your heritage? Like, yeah, all of that matters. What is your blood type? All of that matters a little bit.

SPEAKER_02 31:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:04

Right. And that's why the focus is so hard on where do we go? What do we say? What do we attack? And how do we approach the individual that's struggling? And I don't think there is one, there's not one path. Say, hey, do this, this, and this, and they're gonna be cured.

SPEAKER_03 31:20

No, you have to have a uh several conversations and then come up with a plan that you feel will help that situation the most.

SPEAKER_00 31:29

Yeah, and there's things like with the brain, there's things that Dr. Daniel Amon's big on this. It's uh he does the main, he does brain scans and then uh has these programs where these vitamins and supplements and sleep and things that he does to improve the neuroplasticity and rebuild people's brains. So it is possible. It's just we talk about the knowledge, knowing where to go. Knowing where to go, but more importantly, being able to get to the individual that they want to make the changes.

SPEAKER_03 32:00

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 32:01

Right? Because if they don't want to make the change, they're never going to change.

SPEAKER_03 32:05

It has to come from within number one.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

And that's I think our biggest struggle with Gabriella was she we never felt like she wanted to make the change.

SPEAKER_03 32:13

And we said if you can't change for your daughter, who can you change? Change for. And she had to change for herself. We never realized that.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

She had to change for herself, but also if your brain's not working properly, you don't know how do you know that? And how do you know how and how do you approach that? And I think that's the biggest area for research, I guess, would be it's like, okay, we know the brain's getting damaged, we know they're attacking dopamine, we know the neurological connections are being hijacked, we we know we're losing some structure. How do we fix that?

SPEAKER_03 32:50

Right. How do we talk to them about that?

SPEAKER_00 32:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 32:54

How do we talk to the individual about that?

SPEAKER_00 32:56

Yeah. Your brain's getting destroyed.

SPEAKER_03 32:58

Yeah. Right?

SPEAKER_00 32:58

We think about Alzheimer's dementia. There's some of the scariest diseases. CTE. Um, what else affects your brain really bad?

SPEAKER_02 33:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:08

All these brain diseases are terrifying. And I don't want to say drug use, we're just knowingly destroying our brain, because I don't think it's that like prominent out there. I think there the everyone still thinks it's willpower. Everyone still thinks there's something wrong with them. Everyone still thinks it's a choice. Um, but yeah, maybe that first attempt, but the more, the deeper you get in, the more your brain gains control over your choices.

SPEAKER_03 33:35

Right.

SPEAKER_00 33:36

You no longer have control.

SPEAKER_03 33:37

And that's why I I wish I heard her more. Because she was telling me that. She wasn't stupid, she was smart.

SPEAKER_02 33:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:44

She was trying to tell me that. She goes, You think if I had a choice, nobody's choosing to be an addict.

SPEAKER_02 33:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 33:50

That's not a path of life anybody wants to have to steal from their parents and you know, make sure they have the drug. Uh, one of my girlfriends, this son uh was teaching English in uh Korea, very bright kid. Came home into LAX, got arrested because he was trying to buy drugs from a DEA agent. Yeah. As soon as he landed. So it's it's so crazy on how it takes a hold on you.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

Yeah. And literally makes your decisions and choices for it. Yeah. Well, we're losing battery in the camera. Um, let's end this up. We're gonna go further on this. Uh, my next podcast is gonna be with a um with Shira.

SPEAKER_03 34:33

Oh, that'd be good.

SPEAKER_00 34:34

So we're gonna go into the uh psychological side a little bit. So we did the scientific side, we'll get into the psychological side. I mean, really just trying to help families understand what their loved ones are going through.

SPEAKER_03 34:43

And just if you could share it, maybe it'll touch one person.

SPEAKER_00 34:46

Yeah. One person at a time. That's all we're trying to do.

SPEAKER_03 34:49

One person at a time.

SPEAKER_00 34:51

One family.

SPEAKER_03 34:52

And thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

Yeah, thank you very much. Talk to you guys all soon.

SPEAKER_03 34:58

I think that one okay. Share is a good choice. Yeah, I want to share uh she works a lot with uh families of addicts. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:07

Oh, my camera's about to die. Something's going on here. Okay, 35 minutes.