The Whole Farm Podcast

Beyond the Standard Soil Test: Waypoint on Soil Health, Biology & Better Decisions

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In this episode of the Whole Farm Podcast, Michael sits down with Oscar Ruiz and Lizzie French of Waypoint Analytical for a practical conversation about soil health testing, CEMA 216, Haney testing, and soil microbial analysis.

Oscar and Lizzie explain how newer soil health tests can work alongside traditional testing methods like Mehlich-3, rather than replacing them. They break down what these tests can reveal about nutrient availability, carbon, microbial activity, aggregate stability, and long-term soil function.

The conversation also covers what growers should know before getting started, including how to think about sampling, why consistency matters, and how biological testing can help evaluate regenerative practices, biological products, and changes happening below the surface.

For farmers who are regenerative-curious or exploring soil health programs, this episode offers a grounded look at how better testing can support better decisions, stronger stewardship, and more resilient farming systems.

In This Episode:
Why CEMA 216 and soil health testing are gaining attention
How Haney testing differs from Mehlich-3
Why new soil tests should complement, not replace, traditional testing
What aggregate stability can reveal about soil structure
How growers should handle samples for biological testing
Why soil microbial DNA analysis offers a deeper look at nutrient cycling
How biological testing can help evaluate regenerative practices and biological products
Why consistency and history matter when adopting a new soil testing strategy
What farmers should ask their local NRCS office if they are interested in soil health testing

Learn more about Waypoint Analytical: https://www.waypointanalytical.com/Agricultural

Learn more about chonex.ag

To learn more about CHONEX, explore additional resources, and receive future episodes to your inbox, visit chonex.ag. If you found this episode valuable, subscribe to the podcast and share it with someone in your network.


SPEAKER_00

Welcome to the Whole Farm Podcast brought to you by Chonex, where we explore soil health, nutrient management, and the systems that help crops and farms perform better over time. Each episode features conversations with growers and industry experts focused on practical insights you can apply in the field. Whether you're managing nutrients, building healthier soils, or looking for data-driven ways to improve outcomes, this podcast is built to support real decisions and real results.

SPEAKER_04

Welcome back to another episode of the Whole Farm Podcast brought to you by Chonax. Wow. Today we got two, I mean, these they're behind the scenes. Maybe you've seen them, but you can't really hide when you're with Waypoint. Obviously, Waypoint is arguably one of the largest soil laboratories in the United States. We are thrilled and honored to have Elizabeth, Lizzie. Uh she goes by Lizzie, Elizabeth French and Oscar Ruiz here with us. Um, Oscar, I'll let you take us away with this first question. Just can you just tell us a little bit about uh how you got to where you are at Waypoint and uh what you do now with Waypoint?

SPEAKER_02

I've been with Waypoint since before it was named Waypoint, um since uh the ANL analytical days uh since 2008. Um I started started my career in California. Um I did I studied agronomy out there at Cal Pala Pomona, then I I did a hard I did several things across the years. I worked in in small fruits, berries, I worked in managing um pastures, forages. Uh I've uh worked as a kid I scouted cotton with my uncle in Mexico. Um I worked in a laboratory. I'd have an extensive diagnostics experience in pathology and nematology. Um I've worked in vegetable scouting and and in golf courses, uh turf gas diagnostics. Uh I went to grad school at University of Florida for plant medicine. And um yeah, I've been here ever since. As in this role, I do a little bit about everything. It's work from you know sales, technical support, um, customer liaison, international uh client liaison. Um I've given presentations on basic soil fertility, work with clients on developing new methods in the lab.

SPEAKER_04

Tremendous. All right, Lizzie, it's your turn.

SPEAKER_01

All right, well, my background is just slightly shorter than Oscar. There's no reason. Haven't been in the in the industry quite as long, but um my I went to I did an undergrad degree in biology at Indiana Wesleyan, um, you know, worked for a year in a lab and figured out that if I, you know, wanted to do what I really wanted to do, I needed to go to grad school. So I went to Purdue. Um got a PhD in my my degree says plant pathology, but you know, don't ask me to diagnose any diseases because I was really more focused on the uh molecular, uh molecular biology side of things. And I got really interested, you know, I started on the pathogen side and got really interested in all of the microbes in the soil and how they're interacting with the crop and what how those interactions influence the health of that plant and how that influences the health of the soil. So that was um really where my my research focus ended up going. I stuck around for a couple more years at a postdoc with another lab. Um I spent a lot of time killing tomato plants in every possible way you can kill a tomato plant, um trying to poke at the microbiome and understand um understand how what what role it was playing. And then um after that I worked with uh Nutrient for almost four years, um kind of in the background thinking through how can we use our understanding of soil biology to uh help with agronomic decision making. Um and then about a year and a half ago moved over to, so yes, beginning of 2025, moved over to Waypoint and have been with them since I so I manage our soil biology team at Waypoint. We have a report that we've put together that's based on a DNA analysis of the microbiome where you're able to look at um essentially the functional capacity of your soil biology and understanding the nutrient cycling, um, nutrient cycling, understanding overall soil health from that kind of DNA-based functional approach.

SPEAKER_04

Wow, that's awesome. Now, Lizzie, I had heard this on another podcast because you have been on another podcast, Oscar. I don't know how podcast you've been on, but I have heard that you did not grow up in Indiana. Is that true?

SPEAKER_01

That is true. I did not grow up in Indiana. Yes, I I mainly grew up in uh Central and South America from my parents' work, and that really, really did play a role in you know, inspiring the direction I took. I always wanted to be a scientist and um definitely focusing on on agriculture and what we can do to you know steward the the land that we're using to grow crops well was has really been uh my my passion and my focus with um from a scientific perspective.

SPEAKER_02

So fluent by the way, Michael. You should she's done Spanish podcasts. And she's um she's received, hosted um our Spanish clients from South America, and they're just enthralled by Lizzie.

SPEAKER_04

Man, that's that's amazing. That's a high compliment coming from you, Oscar. That's cool.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_04

It's really cool. So, you know, we're gonna get into this. This is not some sort of stuffy podcast where we're gonna have, you know, a lot of like tight boxed answers. Uh Jonex is a really great sponsor. They kind of let me take this whichever direction I really want. And so I kind of want to be direct to start this conversation. And Lizzie, we will come back to this soil microbial DNA analysis at kind of the end. Um, but this podcast is really about kind of helping farmers uh through the lens of this USDA regen uh ag kind of pilot program. And with that, there is this kind of new soil testing panel called the SEMA 216, which is the code section within the USDA for how this kind of gets viewed. And, you know, anytime a farmer sees something new, and I know Oscar gets a million questions about this, but they they feel like it's how do I say this? There's no like parallel tracks. It's like I have to always choose like an A or a B. And so my first question kind of is like, you know, how do y'all view this conversation for being able to offer as waypoint this SEMA 216 kind of panel? Is it something where we kind of abandon what we've been doing? Should we look at it more like an and conversation, like we do something else? And this, how do we view this, guys?

SPEAKER_02

Um, I'll have I have a few thoughts. You have to understand that the the current methods that we've been using in in soil testing have been around what almost more than more than four years. That's the latest one, right? Um and that said there there's a lot of there's a lot of data. There's a lot of data um regarding several of the nutrients and and and calibration for those across several soil types. Um 40 years for the newest one, the Malik 3. Uh the I'm very open-minded as far as as new new new methods are developed. Um I think it's very important that that any new method that's being implemented pass through the through a time period of of testing trials so you could calibrate um consistently. And and it's important to understand you have to do it frequently in order to develop a history with that particular method. Um I I'm very aware of of Dr. Rick Haney's um I have huge respect for him. I think I think it's a great thing that he's doing, that he's developed this this this Haney analysis. I I I I look forward to um you know keep working with those labs and those entities that are that are that are trying to bring this onto the scene. I see a lot of potential. Um I worked for a short stint um with with a biological company, and that was the type of test that was preferred, right? Um it was it was it was a for several nutrients, it was a a great snapshot in time. Specifically for nitrogen, carbon, and sulfur and and and phosphorus was pretty well calibrated. There's some other nutrients there that that probably still need some work, but um I think I think there's there's a lot of promise. And I think it's very important that people understand that um it's like any new tool, you have to get used to it. And getting used to it means using it frequently and and and creating a history with it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, no, I I'd a hundred percent agree with with what Oscar said, and and yeah, I would agree that it's a it is an and conversation just because yeah, it is new testing that needs um and it just provides different dimensions of information, right, in terms of what what the a wet aggregate stability is telling you, what that you know available carbon is telling you relative to say what a melee three is telling you. It's just different dimensions of information about your soil. And so being able to look at all of those things and put it put them together into that kind of complete understanding of what's going on in your soil is is going to be very helpful, but it is um, I would say from my perspective, yeah, there's there's definitely a high steep learning curve. There's a high education requirement on learning how to understand and use these new types of uh this new type of data.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. No, I I wanna I want to kind of circle back on something Oscar said, but I also, you know, so it sounds to me like first of all, when I saw that Waypoint was offering, you know, CEMA 216, that's when I reached out to Lizzie originally and I said, wow, like this is a huge step.

SPEAKER_02

We we have a partner laboratory, Region Ag Laboratories that we're partnered with.

SPEAKER_04

I did not want to overstep that, Oscar. So I'm glad that you clarified that was important.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, we're we're all about transparency here, man.

SPEAKER_04

Absolutely. You know, and that's kind of the crossover, I think, that this conversation's really been missing. You know, somebody like Waypoint joining arms with Lance Gunderson at Region Ag Labs, you know, it says a lot about Lance that he'd be willing to, you know, say, hey, like let's get this to as many people as possible. That's kind of what it says to me. And the fact that y'all do have this partnership and it's something that y'all can work together on collaboratively. Uh, I've said this several different kinds of podcast ways and in different interviews, but there's never been a better uh moment in agriculture for collaboration.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

Because it's it's really uh there's a lot of things happening right now that you know we start looking at things in a really uh, you know, I mean, there's just there's other factors. I mean, it's a dynamic environment, a lot of challenges.

SPEAKER_02

And so biology has been overlooked for for a long time. It's it's it's it's a it's an essential piece of the of the soil fertility uh whole, right? We've been strictly focused on on the chemical, on the physic, not really on the physical. There's still a lot of work to be done on the physical, but now we're getting into the biological, and that's and that's that's it's it almost seems infinite right now. But um, yeah, I think I think it's it's I think it's great.

SPEAKER_04

That's awesome. That's so cool. You know, I you know, so the the framework of SEMA 216, it it does have this biological piece in it that's kind of centered on carbon as the driving factor. And then there's, you know, Oscar, you mentioned physical. There's I think there is a lot more practical ways that we look at that. And then we have kind of a chemical, you know, if you want to say that the carbon is the biological driver, this potential of hydrogen pH is kind of this driver of this chemical kind of traditional nutrient Melic 3 thought that we have that's still connected to SEMA 216. Um, I laughed the other day because I saw someone posting that they said, oh, Melic 3, we did these nutrient availability tests with Melic 3, so you know they're good. And when I saw that, I said, Whoa, like there's a lot that we're leaving on the table that's out there. So, Oscar, if you could just kind of briefly give uh growers that might be listening, uh, so they don't have to hear me say it, if you if both of y'all could maybe chime chime in on, you know, what are the nutrient differences around kind of like this Haney methodology versus something like a Malik? Can y'all highlight that a little bit for me?

SPEAKER_02

Sure, sure. Um, Malik 3 is uses a double acid approach. It was it was it was developed after a series of other Malik extractants is the third iteration of of the Malik of Adolf Malik's um uh well this it's it's the third extraction that he developed and he named it after him. So uh it's it's a double acid. Uh it was developed to better um determine the probability of crop response to application of fertilizer. Now I know that sounds pretty complicated. So they developed they calibrated these these this this Malek 3 was better calibrated for coastal plain soils, which tended to be um sandier soils, lower CEC soils, and um Piedmont soils, which tended to be finer textured. Okay, from that it it spread out across many states where where those sorts of of soils existed. And and it was adopted in the southeast and places now in the Midwest and in the Northeast, and it's it's it's it's a universal extractant, okay? So it's it's great for a lot of soils, but there's still gonna be some soils that are not gonna be as appropriate, right? So for most soils it's it's it's a decent extractant. Okay. Um now Rick Haney developed this method based off organic acids. It's an intended to more mimic how the plant um absorbs nutrients from the soil. Okay. Umic 3 is is older and and and and and he came on with this this new organic acid method. Okay, so um that's that's the that's the idea behind the the the the Haney test. Okay, he also has um measures carbon, microbial active carbon. PH is also part of it. Um it's yes, but it's it's it's it's a different it's a different way of of looking at the at the soil.

SPEAKER_01

The way I explain it when when people ask questions to me about the difference between these is that the Haney is meant to show you like what's available now, or you know, what's that plant gonna be able to make available immediately? Or is the male like has been more calibrated to be a sort of a season-long availability. Uh, so it's meant to show you what are you gonna be able to make available over the course of the season because it is a much stronger extract and it's not what's available today, right? Um and that uh so that's really kind of just the difference in interpretation. So it just ends up meaning like your the numbers are gonna look different as well because you're gonna have lower immediate availability versus your season-long availability, right? Um yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I liked it too. I never actually heard it exactly that way before. But y'all, what what do you feel like the biggest hurdle is to adopting new uh a new soil testing strategy like this, what Lance is offering with y'all as far as that the the Haney soil health analysis?

SPEAKER_02

I I think I think it goes back to what I to what I started saying or started getting into a little bit earlier. It's it is it's a new tool. So, like any new tool, you have to get used to it. And you don't get used to it by just using it once and seeing what the results is. You have to develop a uh a a schedule, a program, consistency, frequency, and take into consideration uh what you consider what you would do for any soil test, you know, depth, time of year, that that sort of thing. Um might even try it a couple of times throughout the year. Um I I think I I think it's I think not necessarily the the the aggregate stability test, but just the the the the Haney, the the core Haney package or the core core soul health test. Just the SEMA test isn't the core soul hell test. The the SEMA test is um the the soul hell test plus other items, right? Like the aggregate stability. I think that the aggregate stability is is a great test. It's a great test. I think it's a it's kind of like an all-encompassing for me. Um it's the final you're testing, hopefully getting to the final product. This that that that aggregate stability is what you want, it's your it's what you want to achieve, right? And um yeah, there's chemical, physical, and biological factors that that go into creating that that that that product, that the quality of that soil.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I would just I'd add to the um having Ben, having spent the last five years or so working on developing new soil and uh and then you know in now in the the adoption phase with what we've developed is yeah, first just that they're well soil is so so variable. So if you're trying to develop something that is applicable across even just within the US, there's so much variability in growing environments and you know, different practices that are being used, irrigation and like different issues that people face, that trying to acquire enough data to kind of understand all of those different systems is a monumental task. Um, so that's the first piece. And then the second piece, we kind of touched on it briefly before, is that with any new test, there's just it just takes time and energy to wrap your brain around. And um, you know, everyone I know that works in ag is already very, very busy and has a lot of different things that they're already, you know, working on understanding and dealing with. And um, so adding adding a new thing with a high education requirement can can be a lot to ask at times.

SPEAKER_04

Let me ask you this too. So you mentioned this, Lizzie, that I obviously everybody's got, I mean, to adopt anything new, hurdles have to be removed. Is anything special if I'm a grower that I have to do differently when I handle a sample versus what I have been doing when it comes to doing a Haney test or a SEMA 216 type test?

SPEAKER_01

Um from what we've done, yeah, with our testing and the SEMAs is newer for us, especially, but really the main thing, you know, it's gonna be similar in terms of making sure that you're getting representative sample from the field. Um, especially since with this type of testing, you're not doing it on a you're not gonna do it on a grid. So it's gonna be a composite base. So you want to make sure that you're representing that field well with your sample. Um and then the other Thing is, you know, if you're looking at microbial activity in any form, you can't leave the sample in your truck for a week before you gotta get it, you know, shipped over. You don't necessarily, you know, it's not, you know, back in in my my academic scientist days, you know, when we'd take a soil sample, it was, you know, you had the big gloves and the liquid nitrogen and you're immediately freezing things to make sure that everything is, you know, perfect and exactly the way you sampled it. Um, we found with the testing we've done that that is not, you know, that that piece is not important, but really just, you know, keeping uh keeping it at kind of room temperature, or maybe, you know, if you sample on a Friday, stick it in the fridge over the weekend before you ship it out, that sort of thing. But other than that, it's really pretty similar in terms of the sample. I mean, definitely for the number of different tests that are being run, you'll probably need a little bit more sample than you would just for a standard male like three.

SPEAKER_04

And how does the flow of this go? If they're used to sending samples to wherever the home waypoint lab is for them, is there any changes to that? Is there any different kind of forms that come with this? You know, what are you seeing on the front end as far as how y'all are working out?

SPEAKER_02

There's only two labs in our system that are are currently receiving samples for that, and um and and it has to do with the fire and quarantine zone. Okay. Um these samples have to be dried, ground, and and and processed the the initial part before they get sent over to region. So if if you're in the north outside the fire ant quarantine zone, those samples could go to to Nebraska or Grand Island lab. And if you're within the the fire the the quarantine zone, they go to Memphis. So we process them and you and then we prepare the samples and get them sent out there. So it's so it's it's so it's safe. Gotta stay legal.

SPEAKER_04

Gotta stay legal. That's good. Hey, I did not have fire in it quarantine zones on my bingo board of things that I get to do today, Oscar, but that's important because we're staying legal, and this is the hurdles that y'all have to deal with on a normal day-to-day operation.

SPEAKER_02

So so what the person would have to do is is call, contact, contact us. Um preferably contact the Nebraska or the Memphis lab directly. Don't call our Pennsylvania, Virginia, North Carolina, um, Iowa, or Illinois lab, call them Nebraska or or uh Memphis. And then and then we'll send you the documents and all the information. Right. It's it's a but it's a pretty straightforward. You check a box type of test. We're we've we've gotten the the the logistics smooth out with region.

SPEAKER_04

That's great. That's great. That's really, really good. Thank you for that. I wanted to be practical about so people could extract as much information as they could from this message as like a public service. Um I want to dive deeper on this philosophy, you know, the philosophy. You know, I ask about hurdles. Um, you know, obviously we could get into a cost conversation. You know, I know that part of you know running some of these uh soil health tests will be, you know, part of the conversation of submitting your regenerative pilot program of what you're doing for your final test. Um, I think you guys kind of mentioned it earlier, but it's some of these these, you know, wet aggregate stability, you know, soil organic carbon, they're kind of like your final exam. You know, a lot of these other tests are how you're moving through the system, how you're progressing with different things that you're trying or maybe doing as part of your regenerative practice implementation. Um, but I wanted to to to kind of get you both of your opinion on this. And, you know, say for instance, we do you know, get a lot more tests in the system. We're able to learn a lot more about soil health, uh, different, you know, analytics, maybe, uh, have a lot more data points to understand where we are and maybe what we're doing. If you if we we go five years from now, what what do you feel like these tests are going to really reveal about American agriculture and and what do you hope that this gets done from you know better soil health testing?

SPEAKER_01

Well, what I hope that that some of the folks learn, you know, um Michael, I think you use this term, folks that are regenerative curious um is that those those people who are kind of you know interested and starting to learn will really start to grab a hold of some of this data, understanding what it means for their operation. Um, because I think there's there's definitely uh I mean, and this is this is what I think from having a look at some bar testing across the Midwest. Um, you know, there's a lot of really good soil there already. And I think, and and my hope is that this type of testing will show, you know, even if if you do the test and you're like, oh, you know what, I'm in a pretty pretty good spot already, that it'll inspire um, you know, inspire that stewardship conversation, inspire folks to think a little bit more about, you know, their nutrient use efficiency, where they can um, you know, if you have good soil health already, then that should lead to a conversation of, you know, what is the best use of my fertility dollars? Because maybe I'm putting more dollars into that when there's other places that I could be putting it that would better help my operation as a whole. Um, that I hope that it inspires those types of conversations with these crop consultants. Um, and then in places where, you know, uh the soil is you are getting lower scores, the soil is maybe not so good that it would um, I mean, some of these practices that regenerative type programs are asking to implement are challenging and they do require they the practices themselves have a high education requirement, right? And so I um my hope is that yeah, that it inspires kind of more creative thinking in terms of what practices fit in different places and more, you know, sharing between the growers that are already well into this, um, with those that are just starting to be able to to figure out, okay, how can I make this work on my operation? How can I um you know adopt some of these different practices in a way that's going to work uh logistically and help you know improve the longevity of that farming ground. That's I mean, that's really what soil health is about, right? Is can we continue to grow a crop on this field centuries into the future?

SPEAKER_02

Um I I can't I don't think I could add much more to that, except probably that I I hope people stick with it. They continue continue to see get value from these types of tests. They're coming. The the the are our soil biome tester as well. It offers great insight into in-season and and long-term um soil health improvement, this the SEMA test. So there's there's things coming on board that I hope growers continue to see and learn. And also, especially for the for the SEMA type test, that people continue to use it and and and calibration start developing across the country so they they they could they can start making um you know probably better fertilizer, a lot of fertilizer decisions as well. I don't I don't see a future where we're completely off like a uh you know, it's gonna be it's gonna be more of a hybrid. We're gonna be using um we're gonna be using biology, we're gonna be using um current technology, and I think it it has a place to incorporate these types of tests and they and growers see the value. Okay, it's this more expensive test, but see the value in performing these tests. I'm I'm very hopeful, and um I hope that uh growers become more educated, and also um institutions um uh facilitate information gather from all of this testing.

SPEAKER_04

That's that was amazing. That was really great. Both y'all uh you know Lizzy, you said something that I I'm gonna be I'm gonna play kind of um uh an other side of the fence conversation here. Right? So here's what we you you mentioned biological testing. Oscar mentioned biological testing in his response just then. Now, okay, I I'm looking at USDA's paperwork, and what I see is I see, okay, SEMA 216, that I have some other categories. Maybe they're Mac, maybe it's like a some Haney test that's encumpered within the the soil health you know analysis panel. But what I don't see is soil microbial testing. Like I don't see that specifically, you know, where I can measure functionality or groups or something of that nature. So Lizzie, this is your chance and Oscar. This is a great question. And sell me as a farmer on why I need to be looking into this soil microbial testing.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, fantastic question. Usually the way that I talk about this, um, when you get into biological testing, right, the Haney is is that first intro, you get that 40,000-foot view, and that's you know, that's a component of the SEMA 216 is this micro the soil respiration test, right? So that's your that's your 40,000-foot view of how much microbial activity do I have in my soil. Um, what this new type of biological testing, this DNA base can tell you is, you know, what are the activities that those microbes are doing. So rather than just kind of this big picture, you get a much more uh I hate to use this word because it's very science-y, but I I can't haven't thought of a better one yet. But it's a much more granular look, right? Where you're able to see, okay, you know, there's my overall biological activity. Um, we look at overall microbial biomass as kind of a similar look at um, you know, the total amount of microbial life you have in your soil. Um and then we go, you know, that next step is, well, how many nitrogen fixers do I have? How much potential do I have for nitrification and denitrification, assuming the conditions are correct for that to happen, right? How many P and K solubilizers do I have? And then that helps you think through that conversation further on that, you know, nutrient use efficiency piece that I talked through. You know, that starts that conversation of what do I need to do to protect my fertilizer investment given the microbial community that I have. And then what particular biological products or modes of action might be a good fit to either build up my overall soil biology levels or to help build up a particular group of microbes that my soil might be lacking in terms of function. So it's certainly uh it can be used sort of as a standalone soil biological health indicator. Um, you know, microbial biomass, total levels of bacteria and fungi also work really well. There's lots and lots of literature that supports, you know, you see those values increase over time when you implement regenerative practices. So it can be used in that from that perspective, but it also helps you to get a lot more focused in terms of what types of other um other technologies can I bring in uh to be able to maximize the uh productivity and efficiency on that piece of ground.

SPEAKER_02

I don't think I could add much more to that. I I I think that the this just the soil biology is is a great long-term and and uh long-term evaluation of your of your soil progress. And also we've seen great studies where we could see immediate impacts of of of biostimulant and biological products um in the short term, like within within a few weeks. The growers are getting more tools. They get more tools.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it's a good and I think I would, you know, the on the the the flip side of the coin is if you're a grower who's interested, you know, and you've got a retailer, someone coming to you with a new biological product, um, you know, I think we're at a point today where obviously, yeah, yield is important, showing, you know, what's everyone shows what seven bushels or something like that is the increase, right? Um, but there the tools that we have today, uh, you know, we can do more. And I think a grower can ask for more in terms of data of what is that product doing in the soil. Is it is it having the impact in the soil that you know the c that we're making that that retailer's making the claims about? And you can show that with this type of testing and those products.

SPEAKER_04

So you know, I I do think that you know Oscar mentions tictuativeness, and I feel like if I'm a grower in South Georgia growing peanuts on a a super sandy soil, or in North Florida growing watermelons, and I know my organic matter might, I might struggle with, you know, some of these bigger outcomes, these bigger boss tests, but I'm gonna do some maybe maybe I want to just put a wetting agent down and try to manage my water better and see what happens because this is going to be a new practice I'm gonna implement. I'm gonna try to manage water better. And I know some other folks have that conversation on the other side of the country. And, you know, maybe this biological test is a way that I can see kind of what some of these systems are, you know. Uh some people have described it as different parts of my engine. You know, if I don't open the hood, I don't know that, you know, I have, you know, an air filter that's has never been changed. You know, maybe I look at that. Maybe I need to look at different parts of my engine and really get, and the only way I can do that is looking at this biology through the lens of that and say, okay, biological engine is good in these areas, maybe it has lots of room for growth. And then it makes me, it just gives me a lot of good feedback with positive feedback loop that instead of getting beat down by some of these bigger final tests, then I can say, All right, did I have a a a three to four week window, like you mentioned, Oscar, where a biological or biostimulant product or maybe something else, it did do something.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I it versus if I find out it didn't do something, then I can I can ditch it. You know, I can I can do something different.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I was so or this was this is very early on. We had um, you know, crop consultant working with us, an agronomist, and they'd sent in some samples from a grower um out in uh the Carolinas. I don't remember exactly where at this point, but it's very sandy soil, one maybe one percent organic matter on the samples that were sent in. Um, but we had I think we had got like seven samples, I think, and six out of seven of them were off, five out of seven of them were off the charts, high microbial biology, you know, microbiology. And I like I called the crop consultant. I was like, I don't like one percent organic matter, you know, can you tell me a little bit more about this person's fields? Because this seems like this is wild. But like these are not numbers that we normally see in one percent organic matter. Um and so we end up talking to the grower and he goes, Oh yeah, no, like these fields, all these five fields, I'm doing cover cropping, no-till, manure, adding some, you know, biological products on there. And he's been doing that for 15 plus years. And even though he was still at 1% organic matter, because they were, I think they were cutting the cover crop and using it for hay. Um, and he's just not an environment where you're gonna be able to build up much more organic matter. It's it gets, you know, it's pretty warm there. So uh he wasn't able to do that, but he did really build up his soil biology. And so then we asked, like, all right, what about these other two fields? Like they look kind of more in line with what we'd expect to see. He says, Oh yeah, well, that one I just bought it, I haven't done anything to it. And the other one I split with another grower, so I only have it every other year. So that was a huge, you know, light bulb moment for us. Like, yeah, you know, these types of practices, you know, you can really build up your soil biology and you can really show the impact that you're having, even if you're not having those big number swings, like, yeah, that's whole organic carbon. Um, because of the environment you're in, you're still having a huge beneficial impact, and you can see that in the soil biology.

SPEAKER_04

That's great. That was a good story because you know, it's kind of a stick-to-it history story that exactly, yeah. You then test, and you're like, Well, I didn't expect that, but then you have a comparison and that's really good.

SPEAKER_01

So for him, yeah, you know, the takeaway was just you know, keep doing what you're doing. It's go, you know, just you need to get started on that new field, and you know, 10 years from now it'll be where all the other ones are.

SPEAKER_04

That's a really amazing that's a great story, Lizzie. Thank you for sharing that. Um, I'm gonna wrap this up, and you know, I I I mentioned this to y'all earlier, but a farmer listens to this episode and calls their local NRCS office tomorrow to ask about SEMA 216 or soil health testing. Maybe they they're they're curious as as we've discussed. What should they what should they ask from y'all's perspective?

SPEAKER_02

For starters, I I'm interested in the SEMA 216 and um and ask them, ask the the NRCS guy or the whoever it is, guidance, help, right? As far as I mean, I I wanna I wanna enter this, I want to learn from this. Uh what can you what can you teach me? Uh just really go in there with an open mind. It's not a short-term, it's not a short-term thing, it's it's it's a long-term thing. Right? It's it's a stewardship stewardship approach to to to farming. I think that that the yields will be more steadier once you have created a system that that incorporates this type of this type of um approach. Just be open to this and and and and trying and saying, I don't know anything about it. I want to try it, I need I need help. You know? How do I implement it? What's this mean?

SPEAKER_01

Just um help me understand it, you know. And uh yeah, logistically, what do I need to do? And um yeah, then if they give us a call to the Nebraska or the Memphis labs, we can certainly help on the on the logistics side for getting the sampling done. Um once they've you know, once the farmers decided that they they're interested in participating.

SPEAKER_04

That's really great. Well, this has been a really connected kind of podcast for us because a lot of times we talk about soil health or maybe we talk more about the program, but this has been super practical to help growers understand the connection of this. You know, I think Oscar's point about just you know saying, what do I need to do? You know, I need help, I'm interested. You know, direct me, guide me a little bit so that when I take these soil tests, that they fall how they're supposed to fall within the it's something that I can add to my whole farm plan. I know that I've done the right thing, and then I have confidence for when I need to be back out there. Because right now I think there's just so many questions, and I think even just starting with the NRCS, just do it, just go to your office and ask and bring it up because they're gonna say, hopefully, they will also have an open mind. That's my goal, is you know, they're not gonna look at it with an eye roll and say, not oh, it's another program, it's always program, just the new name. And you know, I have that fear too because you know, NRCS is trying to do the most with the least. And so shout out to all those folks that are, you know, with USDA. And we've had a lot of really good productive conversations uh with them on this topic, and hopefully that they will they will see this as an opportunity to to be a resource to these growers that have lots of questions, and that then they they throw them to y'all, and they get get what they need from a soil health uh kind of test perspective, uh knowledge perspective, flow of when those samples are supposed to get pulled. And you know, I'm wearing I'm wearing this the swoosh on my other side. I'm wearing a swoosh, just do it, but like Oscar said, stick to it. Okay, so gotta stick to it. Uh Lizzie, I love that story. There's no, you know, there's ways to look at short-term success, but we're going for a long-term payoff of absolutely. So um, any final thoughts, statements, and we'll wrap this this show up.

SPEAKER_02

I only have one specific suggestion, and it probably seems a little if if somebody were to start with anything, like when this program, I think they pick a spot in their field and they they hone in on this on this small area and work with that. I think it's I think it's a better push than than going out and doing a composite. I think the composites are great once you get used to something, but if you're starting off with a tool, do it on a very small scale. And and and and and do it in that particular area that you are very familiar with. So you could track it.

SPEAKER_01

Yep, that's a great uh yeah, that's that's really good advice, Oscar. And um, yeah, I think I would I would just kind of gonna wrap it up the same way you did, Michael's. No matter, no matter you know what what the terminology of the day is, whether it's soil health or sustainability, regenerative agriculture, um, you know, the I the goal is the same as long-term soil health, productive soils, and being able to do, you know, as much as we can with it being the most efficient that we can.

SPEAKER_04

Amazing. Oscar, Lizzie, thank you so much for being on the whole farm podcast. We will be uh excited to see where this goes, but we'll put your contact in the show notes and we'll make sure we link everything and so folks can find y'all. And uh y'all have a great rest of the day, and thank you for listening.

SPEAKER_00

Thanks for listening to the whole farm podcast by Chonex. If you found this episode helpful, be sure to subscribe and share it with someone in your network. For resources or to learn more about Chonex, visit chonux.ag. Thanks again for joining us, and we'll see you next time.