The Asiabits Podcast

Ep. 10: She Flew to China to Scream at a Factory

• Season 1 • Episode 10

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"I lost everything up there when I was hiking. The monk said: Congratulations." - Denise Wu, rootique

Denise started at Ogilvy in Hong Kong, launched Foodpanda as the first employee, scaled a bike-sharing startup to the US in three months, and then quit everything to build a hardware device for hair loss treatment. Alone. No co-founder, no R&D background. She spent 300,000 RMB of her own money on the first mold and flew from New York to Shenzhen to scream at a factory boss before Chinese New Year.

In this episode:

  • The photo in Annecy, France that made her stop taking pictures
  • From Ogilvy to Foodpanda to bike-sharing to hair loss hardware
  • Why 90% of people quit hair treatment before seeing results
  • Building the world's first micro-misting scalp device (15 seconds, 3.5x absorption)
  • 300,000 RMB for the first mold, no investors, just her savings
  • A marketing expert learning hardware R&D from scratch in Shenzhen
  • Why Chinese factories copy but refuse to innovate
  • Flying from NYC to storm into the factory boss's office
  • InnoX: Shenzhen's best hardware incubator (DJI, Huawei, Anker mentors)
  • Hitchhiking to Tibet, a car accident, and a monk's life lesson

About Denise:
Denise Wu is the Founder & CEO of rootique, a Shenzhen-based scalp care tech company. Before rootique, she launched Foodpanda HK, scaled bluegogo's US operations, and worked at Ogilvy. Her product, rootique DUO, is the world's first one-handed micro-misting scalp care device.

Connect with Denise:
LinkedIn | rootique.co

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asiabits is on a mission to bridge the gap between East and West. We provide non-biased, on-the-ground insights into technology, innovation, and the future of business in Asia.

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Watch the video version on YouTube: youtu.be/sM6PQxss89M

SPEAKER_03

I started my career in Hong Kong. I was in Ogavy, and then before I joined for Panda, I was actually hijacking from Hunan to Tibet. Oh wow. Yeah. And then something happened. It actually changed my mindset. So we had a car accident. And then I was lucky enough I wasn't in the car that actually got crushed. I was in that car, but the driver uh told me to change. And then second thing is that I lost all my money and my passport, my ID when I was in Tibet. I was hiking there and then I lost everything. I hiked back. I met a monk in a in a temple. I said, Oh, I lost everything up there when I was hiking.

SPEAKER_02

He was like, Congratulations.

SPEAKER_06

So Denise, welcome to our podcast.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much for having me.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, great to have you here.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, we're very looking forward because we talked on the phone a couple of days ago. Yeah. And there was a lot of interesting stuff you told us. One was uh I wrote it down to that if you want to succeed in Shenzhen, you have to be kind of bipolar. You have to scream at the surprise in the morning and be their good friends in the evening. Yes. Yeah, yeah. So you have a lot of stories to tell, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because I I consider myself as a pretty gentle and well-educated person before I entered the hardware industry. And then so in the first two years of my business, I spent almost like half of my time in the factory. And then deal with people in the factory was actually extremely challenging. I had some advisors with me back then. So every time I'd have a problem, I just send a message to them and say, hi, hey, they throw me this problem again and how can I solve it? They have been really helpful and in providing advice to me, provided a lot of advice to me. But I have to encounter that problem. So it's like at the very beginning, I was like, because you know, when we're working in the companies, we usually trust the vendors or the partners we choose from. So from day one, I talked to my found I talked to the manufacturer partner. I say, okay, I choose to work with you, so I trust you would actually go through a problem with me, and then you can help me solve the problem. But it just turned out not like that. You know, like probably like three months after that, it was like, okay, shit, something happened. Then and then I I start to go into the factories. I went there during like the work days, I went there during the weekends, and then I buy them like biscuits, coffees, you know.

SPEAKER_05

You started uh reaching out to them first via email or we chat basically, right? And then you try to solve problems via VCT until you found out oh, this is not gonna work. I have to be on the ground.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I have to be there, control every details right there, and then shout it at them. And then so I was sitting really, really nice at the very beginning, and then after that, I was just like, I can't show it right in front of camera, but I was just doing that and was like, what the five Okay, we have to beep this out, censor this out. Uh yeah. So the first experience with the manufacturing actually told me that uh if we are in the hardware business, uh literally, I think it's better to consider in a Chinese saying, right? Chinese, you always say like send the hoping. You gotta be gentle first, and then but I think in the hardware industry it's better to simply holy, be like the bad guy or the bad girl first, and then you can then you can be nice.

SPEAKER_06

Okay, before we before we talk about this, let's talk about the product. Yeah, and this is also something I find really interesting, yes, because as for a lot of founders, you have the same stories. Yes, you tried to solve your own problem. Yeah, exactly. A problem you encountered in life, yeah, and then you found out wow, it's a billion-dollar industry. Yeah, so what was your problem?

SPEAKER_03

Personally, I suffered from hair loss since I was teen. So that was uh during high school, around the age of like 17, 18. And um, my mom to start with, my mom bought me a lot, a lot, a lot of uh like supplements, hair shampoos, and etc. And nothing worked. After that, still like in the past 10 years, I spent a lot of time figuring out uh the solutions, etc. But nothing worked out. And it was until so there was a turning point that made me to start do something around that. It was uh I think it was like 20 uh 18 or 2019, I was on a business trip to NC. Uh France and my colleague took a photo of me just beside the lake. NEC Lake was so beautiful, and and then I can see my hair was like thinning, you know, you know, literally was like sticking on my scope. And I was like so depressed after that. I was so sad. And I never took a photo after that, and I was like, okay, uh, because I know I will start my own business along the way, even though I was working for startups, and I was like, okay, if I want to do something, I gotta do something I believed in, and I I gotta do something I trusted. So there's the motto online I wrote all the time kips there, is like do something good. So I want to do something good to myself and do something good potentially can uh solve many problems, solve solve some problem into the world. And then I started boutique in uh 2023 and to officially like get into this industry by myself, but before that I was actually selling uh hair loss comps in the Chinese market, so we saw like around more than 10 million revenues generated. But that wasn't your own business, that wasn't my own. Yeah, we were more like uh incubated in a in a company.

SPEAKER_05

So you were always already in the industry and you knew because I I mean obviously many people talk about it that this is the problem, but how do you actually evaluate the size of the problem?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so when when I first joined this industry as a uh department head and then starting working around that, I know it's a big issue because I'm myself uh suffer from that. So proportionally, if I'm suffering from that, one sixth of the Chinese people are suffering from that, probably one five-fifth of the people in the world suffering from that, and that that there's a potential. But the biggest challenge is that so firstly, there are like only feel FDA-approved method to treat hair loss, and then secondly, is that I also scouted a manufacturing industry for two years before I developed. So during that period of time, already doing my own research. So I saw that there are a lot of products available in the market, but the product there they are really close to each other. I mean, there's so many similarities, they're not really solving problems, right? Like they're a red light, they have a red light, they have massages, they they have this roller to apply the serums, but uh uh they some people just put out, I mean, they try to make combinations between these three functions, right? Change the same F and then sell it to the customers. But uh the biggest challenge in this industry is that what I realize is the the compliance is actually really low. Only close to like 90% of the uh people who suffer from hair loss, they stopped the treatment before seeing any results.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, this is a big problem, like in all in all areas of life. Yeah, people go to the gym for like yeah, is there a consistency?

SPEAKER_03

Consistency is the key in in this because I myself consider like hair loss or scalp treatment, but we because we were talking for like a larger audience over scalp health, uh so um it's a long time commitment.

SPEAKER_05

Um yeah, so people people are like impatient, it's uh always the same. Like I I I know from my from a mother fast exactly. I know from my mother too. She's like, Oh, I'm trying this supplement today because this is to be okay, it's for my gut health, right? She's trying this for a week and then it's not working. I jump to the next next thing, and then like how can you expect the good result after one week? So you you say long-term commitment, how long does it actually take?

SPEAKER_03

It's pretty much depend on the hair and tonic uh our customers choose, but roughly around at least at least three months to see a little bit of the progress, positivity progress. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So let's break it down. So what you did is not just creating another product to help you prevent hair loss, but it helps you to develop a habit or to make developing a habit easier, right? So so uh yeah, tell us about your product.

SPEAKER_03

So this is the world's first uh micro-misting scalp care device, where because for people who are using hair tonics, right? The previous experience they have to pie hair first, right?

SPEAKER_06

So so people are people who suffer from hair loss, they will buy some tonics. Tonics, yeah. And then they have to apply it on their scalp. Yeah, right? Not not on the hair, on the scalp. On the scalp. Yeah, yeah. Okay, yeah. So and then they they have to do what you just did, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, they drip it, and then most of the tonic goes to the hair instead of the scalp, and it drips all the time. The experience was such a mess. So people so firstly uh because it's so messy and then so complicated to use, so people got refuse it automatically. And then secondly, is that the it lost a lot of uh it wasted a lot of a tonic. And then thirdly, like the the absorption rate is actually not as good. So you have to massage it in and try to make it absorbed. So what we're trying to do is that we don't want to change the whole experience, make it much, much easier for people to stick stick to. So we turn that into like a 15 seconds uh experience where people just put a tonic in, turn it on, and then uh slide it back, that's it. Oh yeah, so it's like 15 seconds and that's done. Most of the tonic goes to the scope, and then even if they want to use in the morning, you won't mess around the hairstyling, you know, you can just go out, yeah, directly.

SPEAKER_06

So you manage to make uh medical treatment as easy as just brushing your teeth, or even easier, right?

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. Our whole uh company's mission is to make uh scalp care much easier and effective for everyone, where this experience can turn into a lifestyle instead of a medical treatment process. Yeah, that's our mission, and then that's why we developed this first one, the comp first product.

SPEAKER_05

So you're coming from this comp uh company, right? Where you detected because this is very similar from the from the movement, right? You're just applying the comp on your on your hair.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So how did you come up with uh with this solution?

SPEAKER_03

Oh, with this solution, oh that was an interesting story. Actually, when I first noticed there's a need for hair tonic, right? I started to dive in and see like if there's any method people are currently using. And so I bought all the different devices available in the market to try out myself. I mean, I was using some before, but I just like bought more. And I also bought a whole bunch of uh skincare products, skincare devices. And to oh yeah, they're for the face. Yeah, yeah. And because I personally I went to Het Space every week, so I know how they take care of my scalp, you know. So in a head spas, they have this uh kind of thing, help you to spray the tonic on the tonic on your scalp. I was like, okay, is there any way that I can bring that to a home-based small device where people can use daily. So they use a big device, yeah. They use a big device, okay. Yeah, so so that's why I was okay, then we just come up with this idea to start to craft this product. But the technology from this big device and this is now similar, or is there there's uh a little bit some similar similarities, but the challenge is that this they are big devices, right? And if if we want to make it small, we have to find uh small, small motors, right? And then small solutions, and then and then the the biggest challenge was wasn't actually on the I mean the the mechanic design is was quite challenging, but the biggest challenge we encountered at the very at the very very first uh step was how can we make this as easy as possible? Because in in the spas, right, they uh so there's someone surf you and then they'll help you to part the hair. So we're thinking like, okay, how can we make people part the hair without using two hands? Okay, they can use it one hand directly. So so we for this this design actually took us uh half a year to come up with this trace.

SPEAKER_06

Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

So when you see like you just part the hair first.

SPEAKER_06

Ah, yeah, it does part the hair, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so you part the hair first and then the mist coming out from the two uh nozzle.

SPEAKER_05

Ah maybe you can explain a bit uh how this actually looks um the the comp thing thingy. Yes.

SPEAKER_06

This so this is like you have a comp as a um detachable comp. Detachable, yeah. And then you have like two um nozzles, right? Uh where where the mist uh comes out. Yeah. And you put your so people they buy their own tonic, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_06

Um the the most famous one, how's it how's it called in English?

SPEAKER_03

Rogin. Rogan, okay.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, and then there's also some in in China very popular melodir or exactly melodia is the is the is the ingredient.

SPEAKER_03

It's the ingredient. Ah, okay. Yeah, yeah. So melodia is the melocidol.

SPEAKER_06

So this is the most famous ingredient, right? So people buy the the tonic, the tonic they love with their ingredient, they all can put it into your device.

SPEAKER_03

So this they can put it here, and then so yeah, just put it right there. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So let's go back into the market. So as we said, like you had the problem your own, but actually, hair loss and preventing hair loss is a huge market, right? Yes. Do you know? Do you have any numbers? Do you know how huge it is?

SPEAKER_03

Yes, they're roughly uh so one out of six people in China, and then one out of five people in the US, and then overall that's around sure, it's 1.2 billion.

SPEAKER_06

Wow. So it is a it's a billion people, billion customer market, yeah, and then multi-billion US dollar market, right?

SPEAKER_03

It's growing as well. I think interestingly is that the people who are suffering for hair loss, they're getting demographic. The demographic is actually getting younger and younger.

SPEAKER_06

And also suffer from hair loss is the the right way to say it because it's a lot of people suffer. Um men also the same as as women.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, are you I are you anxious about getting I mean, you guys get perfect hair. What do you think? I'm almost 40. Okay, right. You're doing really well.

SPEAKER_06

My father is now 70 73. Yes. And he quite has uh his has a little bit hair loss, but it's okay for 73. So I'm not that worried.

SPEAKER_05

I still have problems with these. How do you call it these Geheimrats in Germany? I don't know.

SPEAKER_06

This one? How do we call it in the loss of hair like here? Yeah, the hairline.

SPEAKER_05

I think it's still good to have enough hair.

SPEAKER_06

And it's still that uh female beauty standard, it's still long hair, nice hair. I think for women it's even more, it's even a bigger challenge, right?

SPEAKER_03

It's different, actually. It's quite interesting when we look at the journey of uh female and male. Like for female, like we have uh we feel anxious about hair loss so much earlier. That's this that's almost like day-to-day. Like every time when we shower, right? Wash about hair. If there are more, it's just one to two. Well, gee, that's that's the whole world craft.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, but but during your uh market research, what is like did you also come up uh with uh why this is a problem, or is this like something that is increasingly becoming a problem? And what is causing this hair loss nowadays?

SPEAKER_03

I think beauty standard is definitely one thing, and secondly, is that um I think people like we we all experience this, people pay more attention about the face, right?

SPEAKER_06

I mean the awareness is like the the question is like how why is it that hair loss is a bigger problem? Is it because of nutrition or water? Lifestyle.

SPEAKER_03

Lifestyle, yeah. I think it's overall because firstly, hair loss was affected by 60 plus genes, yeah, DNAs, right? And so it's really really complicated. But when you look at why is this uh dip demographic getting younger and younger, one of the I mean a few reasons, there are a few reasons is that one is the lifestyle. Um people sleep late, they stay up, always stayed up, right? And then the pressure is also one of the issues. Uh weather is actually affecting it, uh, water, right? Like nutritions as well. Um, so they are all and all different things affecting the city.

SPEAKER_05

But that's that's funny. I mean, nowadays I would assume people get more and more aware about their health. Like there's so many healthy, like or at least healthy problem uh products out there that you can improve your life. Why is nutrition actually getting worse and then affecting your hair? Like, I mean, people care more and more about their health and their lifestyle, at least what I feel like.

SPEAKER_06

But not the majority, right? Like, because we are now in a we're living in a world where there are more people obese or overweight than not. So it's like 51% of the world population is overweight, so which means they're they're not having most of the time it means not a healthy, healthy lifestyle. It's maybe in your bubble. People are uh yeah. So I think, and actually maybe uh some in environmental issues. I think this also like polluted water, polluted air, and these are all long-term. So because now we are getting healthy, we're getting better air, better water, especially in China. We see it. But there I guess there are some long-term effects from like decades ago. Could be. This is my guess. We are I'm not a scientist, but I'm not a scientist as well.

SPEAKER_03

But I think my own theory is that people do pay more attention to their health, but people are lazy.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. That's true. That's true, that's true. Because it's it's it's just like part of our human nature.

SPEAKER_05

It's also fast pays everything, and you want to have fast results. And if it's not, then you're getting disappointed and off. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. I mean, when you read uh James Clear Atomic Habits Habits, for example, like he tells like how hard it is to actually incorporate new habits into your life. And even for me, it's like uh I think sometimes I'm very self-disciplined, I lost so much weight, but still it's so hard to incorporate good and healthy habits, new habits in my life.

SPEAKER_03

I actually have an experience to share because I lost 20 kilograms from I think in the past two, three years. Two or three years, but I came back a little I came back a little bit more. Oh, same for me, it's always going up, but always going up again. I came back a little bit. But uh I never succeeded in losing weight before, but I and then but during that two years, the only thing only I only did two things. One is I I did fasting. So I did like 18 hour fasting. Um, and then I did I do um I did yoga uh two to three times a week. Yeah, and that's it.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, yeah, and um so so it's great that you said okay, you want your product to help people to incorporate these habits. Yeah. Because sometimes you need some outside support.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because for my experience of losing weight, I think incorporating a habit into the lifestyle is extremely challenging. And then uh, but the first theory, first fundamental theory is that you can't go against people's uh daily routines. So for myself, I I the I think I uh one of the reasons why I can do 18 to 18 hour fasting was because I finally realized that I can't quit my dinner. So I quit my breakfast. Yeah, yeah, that's what I what I did. Right. So I thought, okay, that's my routine. So I I just don't force myself to quit dinner. So I quit my breakfast, and that was so much easier for me to stick to that. I put that into when when I was developing the product and then and all our product lines. I was like, so I talked to my uh RD um partner and I was like, okay, the the thing we're thinking about is that how can we incorporate our product into people's routine instead of uh reminding them to use our product. You know, that's that's another thing, even because currently we are also developing new products in our company. We have a second generation of this dual coming out probably later this year, and we have a new uh red light product coming out as well. And everything we think is that okay, just get people to start using it without a second thought. Of course, this one that they still need to think about to use, but it's already in their routine, right? Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So how long did it take for to for you the to do the R and D basically until you come up with a solution or a potential solution that would be at the very beginning of RD concept approved was quite fast.

SPEAKER_03

Are like six months. But the first product was so long that was like two or two to three years already. When we're expecting the next product, it would probably uh six to twelve months. Yeah. Yeah. Because we have the foundation for that already. But if not, that's the yeah, because we we developed two sets of modes, right? The first first first set of modes, fighting with the factory, etc. etc. Doesn't work out. Okay, let's move on to the second one. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Bipolar, Denise. Bipola, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

How did you how did you produce the first mold? Just did you just use like 3D printing or what was your approach?

SPEAKER_03

Um, we actually did the official molding, so that was like 300,000 RMB for a set of mold.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, wow. Oh, okay. So you uh you had or you already had investors at that time, or you just uh I spent my own money.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, wow. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So and one step back when you have a background in marketing, you work for food panda and and other companies, big corporates, startups. And why the heck would you think of doing a hardware? This is a hard business, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. So this little story is before I getting into hair loss industry, I was thinking about doing uh sustainable shoe. Shoes, okay. Yeah, I'm from Fujian province, and then Fujin is famous for shoes. The shoe province, like the Anta and all that brand. So I was about to do thinking about doing that, but but that didn't work out because uh I I asked my high school mate to come join me together, and they'll feel like, okay, we're good friends, but we can't do business together. Okay, that give get that gave me a lesson. I never asked my friend to go do business together with me anymore. When I get into this business, it was because I know the solution I want to solve, and then there are different approaches to do that, right? So, firstly, I can do a shampoo brand, which sounds easier for me, but it's extremely competitive. But a shampoo brand, and then secondly, is to do a medicine brand, produce midocidal or that they can help people help solve the problem. Third is the hardware or software problem, soft software to build up an ecosystem. And so there are there are three paths in front of me to choose from. So, first path of working on a shampoo brand, I say no, was because I'm not I'm not a chemistry, right? Um, and then the thing it works is that we need to find a really, really good ingredient that worked. I don't think I can do that. Secondly, uh, and second path is medicine path. So it's more like a medical path. And uh I think I will leave it to professional dermatologists to figure that out. And so then then there's the third path. And so I think third path for me was much, much easier. I don't know because I'm personal, I I like to play around with different gigs, right? Every time when I go shopping. So I I literally don't go shopping, but if if I go shopping malls, like if I go to the shopping malls, I usually just go to the electronic stores to look at okay, how what are the new stuff right there? Out of my personal interest or my personal personal need or like the experience, like doing the hardware, I have a more stronger confidence. You know, I know what I can do and then what I can make a difference there. Whereas the other two, I probably I don't think I can do anything amazing out there. So I choose the hardware path and uh more like an ecosystem path, I would say. And I I knew it was hard, yeah, but I think the difficulty was more beyond that. And uh glad I actually went through the hardest challenge and the hardest part right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But usually when you start thinking of a hardware product, you as soon as you approach the manufacturers, you somehow need some sort of uh industrial design, right? You're not industrial designer, but these manufacturers they help you with the design.

SPEAKER_03

Or how did you sort of we we had a we actually have a product design house help us to come up with the whole design.

SPEAKER_06

Oh yeah, we heard about it. There's one in Shenzhen very famous, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, they are they feel really, really good. Um so I come up with a concept. I know what kind of uh technology I want to incorporate into our product. So I go to the product design house and tell them Mike my idea, and then they help me to come up with this shape of the design, etc. And then and after that, then we'll leave it to RD. And then so the first one I was like, I worked with the ODM company, uh, but the the current version that we actually build up our whole RD team to to redo everything. So that was also a lesson learned. I was like, if there's anyone want to do innovative product, I there are so many people approaching me and say, hey Denise, I know that you ever you worked with ODM companies before and how was the experience and et cetera. I was like, okay, if you're wanting if you want to do anything, so there are two approaches. Firstly, if the product that you want to do is already existing and you just want to do a little bit of innovation right there, then probably you can go to a factory directly. And that might be efficient, right? Um, but if if the product you would want to do is uh definitely innovative, is the best approach is still to hire the own home team to build it up to create it. And then because there are so many problems that that we have to tackle and we have to spend time on. And working with the factories, they because if the the factories have their own kind of like clients, right? The way they calculate their ROI or return of investment is that um how can they produce more products in this limited time frame? So if they encounter a problem, they're probably not willing to spend time to dig into the problem and find a solution. So that's kind of like my experience. So that's why uh currently we are building our home team. We have a many uh mechanic design, we have a hardware design, and to come up with their new products.

SPEAKER_05

And they are in constant contact with the manufacturer.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, our partners, yes, exactly, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_06

So, how is it um being a female founder in this hardware hardware scene? Is it I would imagine it's very male dominated? It is, yeah, yeah. How many female founders do you know in in your uh field?

SPEAKER_03

In there there isn't that many, uh, but in InOX, the incubator we're currently in, I forgot the numbers. I think they are eight or ten already uh female founders. Yes, yes. And as a female founder in hardware industry, I think you just gotta prepare yourself to be bipolar first. Yeah, yeah. Tell us the story. We started with this famous quote of yours. Because it's like you have to be uh there's there's advantages of being a female founder in this industry. It can because you can be soft, right? Yeah. I mean that's that's a really good weapon sometimes. It is, yeah, sometimes, but sometimes you have to be tough, right? Um and then uh so right now what we do is that because my my co-founder, he's uh he's a guy, so he's the mechanic designer. Right now he's like he's dealing with all the supply chains, and so I was like, okay, you go shout at them, please um fight as much as you can. I will be your backup. Yeah, I got you.

SPEAKER_06

So you did like you just play a good cop, bad cop, right?

SPEAKER_03

Well, yeah, so so sometimes he played the bad cop, and sometimes he played a good cop, and then there's a that's good role. But for me, at the very beginning, I have to play both. Yeah. So I still remember like I told you the story, like um after the right after CS last year, I just realized that they're they're not going to finish all the production of my product right before the Chinese New Year. And then back then I was in New York. So I just bought the ticket, fly back into uh fly fly back in Shenzhen, went to the factories directly and put my luggage outside of a factory, went to the boss room shopping a bit. Straight in and said, What the hell are you doing to the product? Get me the man you promised, and otherwise I'll just shut your ticket down. So did it work? It worked. It worked, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

So this product is now already on the market?

SPEAKER_03

It is available in the market right now. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

For how long?

SPEAKER_03

For it's just available this month.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, okay. And and you are already working on the second generation and then other products, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so this is this is the second generation I was saying. This is already so uh the upgraded version, and we're we're currently working on a AI version.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Okay.

SPEAKER_06

How do you involve AI? The heat word. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Because we we think that it's really important for people to understand the scalp health at home as well. Because it's like for most of the people who want to improve their scalp uh health, it's more like a black box. Okay, you don't know like what's happening, and you don't know what kind of product you should use, and you don't know like if the it's actually making good progress, as they promised. So we want to actually uh break break this circle and make uh people to understand their scalp health better. So we want to incorporate AI a little bit into our device and where people can check their scalp health much much easier. Uh so currently developing yet. Yeah, cool.

SPEAKER_05

Like you did a lot of testing, maybe then for a year or so. So what is your promise? Um what is the success rate after what kind of time frame that I can expect when I use your product?

SPEAKER_03

The biggest selling point is the convenience and yeah, and the experience people can enjoy from using the tonic.

SPEAKER_05

So basically the success is more or less coming from the tonic itself, from the ingredient, and your is just the technology to help to apply it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and we have a we have a laptop tested uh absorption rate improvement, so which is like 3.5% compared with bare hands. Uh yeah, and then but we we haven't done a clinical trial right now, but we do have customers come to back to us and say, Oh, I uh the babber told him that he has a better hair. Like um, so the only thing I change is like using in incorporate routine into the routine. So that might be the the thing because uh if they use the hair tonic more consistently, right? Yeah, definitely. And our device is actually improving uh the absorption rate, then theoretic theoretically that might work. Um but we we will we'll do we are planning to do a uh kind of testing later on together with the uh some hospitals and the C and the users as well to see, yeah, because that's the feedback that we get from the customers right now.

SPEAKER_06

So before you put it on the market, you also need to fix a price. I mean, you know your cost, you know your RD cost and uh the production cost. How how do you do it as a rookie? If I want to put it on the market, I cannot just make up a price, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So how do you fix a price that shoots the market, for example, Northern American market?

SPEAKER_03

We did uh because there's no one doing that. Yeah. So we we are the first one, so we kind of like can define the price range. So first consideration is like the production cost, yeah. So literally it's like the product production cost for uh for hardware, right? And then secondly, is the um there's no benchmark for us, but we also drag through like the the the cost of the uh hair loss, the the hardware in the hair loss uh or hair regrowth industry, and I see like the price range. So the price range it will be roughly around, for example, like CareMax, Hair Max is the one of the largest brands right now for red light therapy. Uh the price range is from uh to 200, 299 till like probably close to a thousand. Uh um the other helmet brands is actually more than that as well. So this is another benchmark for us. And then we also did a we did a survey before hands as well to ask people like how much do are they willing to pay? And then so we've we found out like there's a lot of people, uh more than 50% of the uh people actually fall into from 100 to 200 price range. So we just get a middle like 149 USD. Yeah, and and then which also uh can cover uh cover our like um production costs. So I think that's that's kind of like the good range to go with. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So and how important is it to have a big portfolio of products? Because now this is your hero product right now, but for all the companies, especially if you have investors, they want to have more products. Yeah, how do you do decide on when and what to do?

SPEAKER_03

I have the product line mapped out. Oh, you already have it? Yeah, yeah. The first day I started retake. Okay, well, okay. Yeah, yeah. Currently we have a five-year product roadmap already.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, that's great.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

That's good. So how many products on are on this roadmap?

SPEAKER_03

We have three product line. Yeah. So, and then under that there will be four different products, uh, four to five, I would say, in five years. Um, and then uh including uh hardware, uh software, and potentially some uh subscription models that we will actually incorporate later on.

SPEAKER_05

So you're not planning to sell also the tonics?

SPEAKER_03

We might because currently we have some partners in Europe. They uh we do a they incorporate our device into their tonic. We are so currently we don't think we would do our own brand of tonic right now because like I said at the very beginning, we're not good at putting the ingredients. So I think I'll leave this to scientists to come up with the ingredient that really worked. But we also would like to work with different tonic brands to do co-branded ones.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, definitely. You could also provide some data sooner or later, right? As soon as you have some user data that you can I hope they will like it. Yeah, yeah, we love it.

SPEAKER_03

Because I think customers are will love it, but I'm not sure if most of the tonic brands will love it. Because if they don't have that data, they would just say, okay, that's something probably you have this and that and that. If they have more data, right? So, but I think that's that's good to put things forward, right? Sure. So we we we we like to do that because we want to get this really, really transparent to customers and then and then we can show that data to them. They can actually improve their ingredients to specific uh target segmentations, right? And yeah, and then we would do so because the next generation we might have a subscription potential subscription model to incorporate that with uh already non-brands, like uh, right? Other famous brands, which people are already using. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

And the tonic or the different tonics were also one of your biggest challenges when developing this product, right? Because we have to say it again, the people they have their own tonic and put it into your product. And uh, but different tonics have different density, different ingredients, uh, so it's very easy to clock the system inside, right? Exactly, exactly. How how did you solve this problem?

SPEAKER_03

So this this model, um, the first the first model we came out actually had this problem. Um that was quite challenging. And um the this version, the upgraded version, the second generation, the second version, we came out to actually solve that problem. So so firstly, is that the the mechanic, the motors that we're using inside make it more compatible with most of the hair tonic available in the market. Even the thicker version is like uh oil. Yeah, it can dispense oil, but the effect, the missing effect is not as good. But uh most of the tonic available in the market should be shouldn't be a problem. And then anticologging is that we have a lot of a software designed inside and it should solve the crystallization issue. And then just in case if people get that uh have that problem, and then it's extremely easy to clean. So that's kind currently the the version that we're working on. So it's compatible with uh more like 80 to 90 percent of the hair tonic available in the market.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, so how do you clean this now?

SPEAKER_03

They're just putting the water inside so like they can just put the hot water inside. Uh we have uh deep clean mode. People can actually run that automatic automatically, and then we have a little tool for them to actually twist the nozzles down so they can actually deep clean that as well. So, and then the the silicone cuts and then just make it much, much easier.

SPEAKER_06

So, did you go to CS this year? No, I didn't know and your team did I was there last year. Okay. Yeah, I was last year. Already was the first version of this product? Yes, yeah. So, what what was the direct customer feedback?

SPEAKER_03

I think people are really exciting because they haven't seen any innovative product available in this under this segmentations for for a while. And so we get some really good um channel feedbacks and potential channels that currently we're actually dealing with right now, uh quite positive. Yeah. But I think that we were we and this year we should go to more like beauty expos or dermatologists ex exports, because that those are more direct. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

And now you're selling this product globally, or did you just choose one specific region uh or the market first where you like okay, there's the problem. You said, like, I don't know, in the UAE, for example, there's the problem. This is the market with the biggest problem.

SPEAKER_03

So you face this market first, or you just our biggest market right now is still US. Okay. Uh US and Canada, because the penetration for the hair tonic is quite high, the red air. And then uh middle still is really accessible. Uh, but the minnow still is a prescription in your Europe and UAE as well, that you need to go to the pharmacies to get that directly. Where you at in the US, you just go to C V C C VS and you can get it over the counter uh uh uh on the shelf. Yeah, so so that's why we choose to get into the US and Canada Canadian market first. But it's available globally, people can get that directly from our website, and then we have some distributors in different regions that are currently selling the product, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

And you already said you are part of the accelerator uh InnoX right now, and you said this this is the second best decision after starting a business. So can you tell us a little bit how is the ecosystem in these kinds of accelerators in Shenzhen? How do they support someone like you?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I think InnoX is they're not paying me, by the way. Um they're not paying us either. But we're very good friends, very good friends with them. It's a really, really, very good ecosystem. Um, because the first biggest decision, the best the first best decision was that choose to start with take, and the second best decision is to join Inox. Um because that's the best hardware in incubator in China. I think might be also around the world, because when I first joined, the way it works is that it's InOX is is uh specialized in hardware, right? And then we have a whole mentor system supporting us, and all of the mentors have the industrial experience. They are they they have a background from DJI, Huawei, right, Anchor. So if I still remember like the first day I arrived, I encountered a uh hardware problem, and I asked one of the mentors and said, Hey, I have a battery issue, and then they have it got extremely unstable and blah blah blah. And then he helped me went through all the problems I had, and then we solved that problem. That was really helpful. And Inos has a full really comprehensive support system from ideation to product development and then also product manufacturing. The whole development phase that we've had had probably when we joined the incubator, we already have the product, we already market-proof the concept. We are actually got benefit from the product development experience, the support for the product development and then also the MPI process. MPI is called New Product Integration. So we were the first team that did the MPI process in our lab. Oh wow. So we hired assembling workers part-time ourselves and then put up the product line, do our SLP directly, and then assemble the product from zero zero to one. So we did like a 1000 set in that lab. And then after that, we moved to the manufacturer uh assembling manufacturer to do the to to do the later on process uh manufacturing.

SPEAKER_05

So before you want to start Innox, you already have to have a f certain product ready, or is it just okay, I'm like a good person, I just have a great idea, I need someone who supports that. Maybe I found a co founder and InnoX helps me with that. How is the process?

SPEAKER_03

So there are two because we get in from the the most of the people in InnoX they join the incubator from there's a summer camp, there's a winter camp. Yeah. And then there are hundreds of people apply. And then I got each uh camp they only select I think it's like sixty to eighty people to join the uh right, the camp. And then after the camp, there's uh interview round and then to see like oh whether they are really good if uh firstly if they are willing to do a startup, uh secondly, uh do they have the potential and then it was like probably I I don't know the exact number, and then it was like a bunch of uh people to uh join Ino X. So and then it will help them to sort out what kind of direction they want to go to and what kind of product they want to go to, they what kind of product they want to develop. And then that's kind of like ideation phase. Uh yeah. So I get uh for the first ideation phase, and then later on they will join the Inox officially if they pass the interview and they will get a 500,000 uh R and B for the grand and yeah, and then just go through it. So so besides the whole product development, I think Inos is really really helpful into a financial wise as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Which is it's around 70, 75,000 US dollars.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so like five something like this. Yeah, RB, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so with that money, most of the team can develop a uh demo, right? Um, so with the demo, they can pitch to Professor Lee for the Android round.

SPEAKER_06

So he's still like really invested. Uh I mean in a sense that he invests time and energy. Yes. So Professor Lee, he's one of the first investors of DJI. Yeah, exactly. Right? Yeah, and now he founded in a X, and now he you still have uh the opportunity to talk to him on a regular basis. Okay, yeah. So how is that?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, he was he was good. Uh I I really like Professor Lee. Each time when we met Professor Lee, uh, there's that typical problem he asks us. Is that right? He usually asks a few questions. First, why do you why do you do this? Yeah. And then so what's your target audience? Right? And then what was the biggest challenge that you face right now? How can we support you?

SPEAKER_04

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Wow. So I was like, he's really has the heart to support young generations to develop some like innovative hardware.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. And then so InnoX, is it only for Chinese, or is there also the possibility that oh there's there's also foreign foreigners right there as well. Oh wow, okay.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I saw they had like like also, I don't know if they worked there, but they had like Indian startups and so on. So for um people from different countries.

SPEAKER_03

Uh uh Middle East.

SPEAKER_06

Middle East, yeah, yeah. So where do you see yourself in five years? And will will you still be in uh in the accelerator or will you have your own office with 150 people working for you?

SPEAKER_03

We we're going to move to a new office in March or April. Okay. Yeah, this year, because we were closing our uh injured round. Yeah. And then so after injured round, uh, I'm I mean after we close the injured round, we gotta move to an accessor accelerator. So we can't be in the incubator anymore.

SPEAKER_06

Okay.

SPEAKER_03

So that would be a incubate uh accelerator uh under Inno X. So we move there. Um, and then so in five years, I would definitely, I'm sure I'll definitely be in this industry doing hair a lot, uh, scalp care devices. And then I believe we have the three product line ready and then have an ecosystem ready for us. Uh team-wise, I'd rather to keep it within like around 50 people instead of hundred. Because I started a business with uh from one person and myself, and then currently we have a people, a team of 10, right? And half of them are interns and part-times. Uh to keep it as a lean team and then effect efficient efficient team is more important than have a bigger team where we have to manage a lot of like yeah, spend a lot of time managing the resource.

SPEAKER_06

You said you started this alone on your own. What is the one most important advice for someone who's listening to this podcast and is saying I also want to do start do a hardware startup on my own?

SPEAKER_03

I mean start early. One of the reasons I was there to start the business on my own, there are there, I think there are a few criteria if if I think back. So firstly, I was in different startups. So I know how building something from zero to one and then also from one to zero. Right. I experienced from one to zero. And the problems as well. Yeah. And then so I know what I was prepared for the problem, and I was prepared for the worst case scenario. So I asked myself and say, oh, okay, what was the what would be the worst case for me? So the worst scenario goes like I lose all the money, I'm probably bearing wearing debts, and but that's fine for me. So I I think I'm confident that I can start again. So that's the first thing. Second thing is that I also ask myself and say, if I don't do this, if I if this is something I have to wait another co-founder to join me to make this uh succeed, then that's probably something not I meant to do. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? So because you're dependent on other people. Yeah, exactly. So I was like, if this is something I can start by myself, no, no, I and then I know this I'm on the right path. So and then I I'm lucky because especially when I think back, I feel really, really grateful I didn't have a partner then. It was because uh if I had a partner, I would highly rely on this person to make decisions and then to figure out all the problems we encountered. So I won't be able to have the ability to grow my I mean negotiation power with manufacturers to understand all this, every single details of supply chain. So uh so I think that's a very, very good experience for me. If anyone wants to start a business, already have a partner there, then that's awesome, right? You you you trust each other and then that you can rely on each other, you have someone to talk to, and and then to avoid your being becoming bipolar. No, just kidding. Again, so that's the two things I I think is kind of important. But most of the people they got afraid of studying something along, you know.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, yeah, that makes so much sense. Number one, be prepared for the worst, yeah. Know the worst case scenario, and then decide if you could could live with it or not. Yeah, and number two, be aware that you are the most important person as a founder, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Just execute. This is one of the most important rules or lessons we've learned, also. Like, yeah, do it, just do it. Just do it. As you said, what is the worst that can happen? You lose your money. Okay, money comes and goes, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly.

SPEAKER_05

How deep, how low do you actually fall, right?

SPEAKER_03

I started my career in uh in Hong Kong. Um, so I was in Ogavy, and then before I joined for Panda, I was actually hijacking from Hunnan to Tibet. Oh wow. Yeah, so there was like uh almost like a two-month time I was hijacking out there, and then something happened, actually changed my mindset. So I there's so many things. So, firstly, we had a car accident, and then I was lucky enough I wasn't in the car that like actually got crushed. Um yeah, it just changed as I was in that car, but the the driver uh told me to change to the following one because it was too crowded, and then I saw like car was like floated um from the mountain. But I it was it was quite fortunate because no one got hurt, but I can't imagine that what would happen if I was in that car, right? And then the second thing is that I lost all my money and my passport, my ID when I was in Tibet. I was hiking there and then I lost everything, and and then I was uh it's actually too to me it was fine, right? So I and then I hiked back, and then when I uh I met a monk in a in a temple, I said, Oh, I lost everything up there when I was hiking.

SPEAKER_02

He was like, Congratulations!

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, because I he was like, Oh, you you came all the way, you spent all this time, you came all the way here to give the give give back something you treasure to the Buddha, so which means that you have a good luck later on.

SPEAKER_06

I mean it makes totally sense. Maybe someone will find the money who really needs it more than you. Yeah, yeah, probably.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it was so weird because there was no one in the mountain that was and I wasn't able to find that. My journey, that journey actually made a huge impact in my life. When every time when I make a choice, I was like, what's actually meaningful to you? Oh, there was a time a friend out uh also an investor. So she was asking me that what why I started a business, right? And then what what am I tracing? Am I tracing for the money? What am I changing the fortune? Or uh am I tracing the fall of fame or something? And I was like, all of that. No, um yeah, maybe because my plan is I want to run the hostel afterwards. Yeah, in Tibet. In Tibet. In Tibet, probably because I I'm a hostel person. I yeah, I like to stay in hostels. Okay, yeah, even now, I usually want to travel. I I live in hostels. I do this, I definitely chase a lot of things right along the way. I want to I want to make this billion-dollar company and then make myself freedom. Financially freedom. Financially freedom, and I want to make an impact on people who are using our products, uh, getting a fame. So that's the fame I'm chasing. And then uh the the other thing is that for my for me in the lifetime, I I was thinking about, so my experience in Tibet always taught me like life is short. So I don't know exactly what happened. So I might I might die next second, right? So if I die next second, what I actually left behind. Yeah. Um, so what's the sentence I will leave on my thing that will be be remembered? So I think that's something also kind of like guiding me along the journey on if every time when I'm making a decision, so that's kind of like the voice behind.

SPEAKER_05

I highly resonate with that. That's also one of the reasons why I just left Germany, quit my job last year, and came here because I was like, uh, is this everything I want to achieve? Like just going up the career ladder, which is not wrong. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know, there was nothing really for me.

SPEAKER_03

The meaning behind the city. Yeah, exactly. The purpose. Yeah, yeah. It's always no harm to try, right? Like it's always no harm to try. And then I always believe in one thing is that as long as you try hard, if if you don't get the goal, it just try hard and try harder. And at least you have the experience, right?

SPEAKER_05

The experience along the way will just guide you somewhere you probably don't expect, and then at the end you end up somewhere that you didn't know that there was a path.

SPEAKER_06

What a beautiful ending. Very full, Denise. Thank you so much. Yeah, thank you so much for bringing your product, for bringing your stories. Thank you so much. Your entrepreneurial wisdom to us. I love the energy.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you so much, thank you so much. Yes, see you very soon. Yes, oh my god. So one hostel is the other one is get a bold and still around. Very good. Thank you so much, thank you so much.