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Ep. 13: $212K Ad Spend, Amex Capped Mid-Campaign, Still Hit $1M

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"I think I probably had 10k in the bank account. This thing doesn't work, then I'm screwed." - Oliver Masson, Blisstil

Oliver built sleep headphones alone for six years, burned through $700,000 of his own and his family's money, and cried in a Shenzhen hotel on his first night in China. Then he set a $10,000 Kickstarter goal and raised over $1,000,000 in 30 days.

In this episode:

  • Crossing $1M alone: "you're never ecstatic, just more tired"
  • 36 prototypes to make soft foam and hard electronics coexist
  • First Shenzhen trip with $10K in the bank — crying in a cheap hotel
  • Finding his Chinese business partner via Dragon Innovation
  • Wanting to quit "at least once a day" for six years
  • Amex capping his card at $38K and a friend lending him 150,000 EUR
  • The Kickstarter algorithm: why 23% of pledges came free
  • Spending $212,000 on ads to raise $1,000,000
  • Shipping 3,272 units in April and pricing against Bose
  • "Fall in love with the problem, not the solution"

About Oliver:
Oliver Masson is the solo founder of Blisstil, maker of the Serenade — over-ear ANC sleep and travel headphones born from six years of R&D. Australian, based in Lisbon. UNSW Renewable Energy Engineering, Sunswift Solar Racing Team, ex-carpenter, ex-entrepreneurship lecturer.

Connect:
blisstil.com

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asiabits is on a mission to bridge the gap between East and West. We provide non-biased, on-the-ground insights into technology, innovation, and the future of business in Asia.

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SPEAKER_01

I was kind of like risking it all if we had ten K in the bank account. This thing doesn't work. Then I'm screwed. I went to Shenzhen. I remember I was like, you know, in the hotel room, kinda like fucking crying out with frustration. I was like, Oh my god, what am I doing?

SPEAKER_00

Was there a time in the sixty years where you said uh I want to quit?

SPEAKER_01

I think it's like uh at least once a day. Once a day we spent uh you know seven hundred and something thousand dollars over the the the course of the six years that we were building it. It's my money, it's my parents' money, it's my brother's money. We spent two hundred and twelve thousand dollars. Crazy spent$180,000 in a month. It's getting more and more rare for solo creators to actually manage to reach that million dollars.

SPEAKER_03

I'm always impressed by all these great founders that we have on our podcast, right? They are smart minds, and everybody's like deep into hardware and hard and tech here in Shenzhen, which is also obvious. Like most of the reason why they come here is because it's so convenient to get to like all these manufacturers and suppliers you have in like a few distance um reach, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, no place like Shenzhen.

SPEAKER_03

Exactly. That's why one of our guests also told us if you want to build hardware, if you want to build your product, you have to come here, right? But that's also like one of the questions we get asked the most is how do I start? I mean, it's obvious when I came here, it's it's it still has some barriers, China. It's it's still a close system ecosystem somehow, and it's always the question of how do I find reliable partners, right? How do I know I can trust this business? Yeah, um yeah, we we've helped so many startups already and um people to source products, but it's still hard to navigate, right?

SPEAKER_00

It is. I mean, we have so many people coming to us asking the same questions all the time. How do I find business partners? How do we do the contracts with them? How do we do the payments? And um, that's why we are very happy that we partnered up with World First, the sponsor of today's episodes, and they have this great system that solves a big, big problem payment. So World First is originally a London startup, and uh they got acquired in 2019 by End Financial, which um is the mother of Alipay. We all know Alipay, right? So and they have this system now where they have 1.5 million businesses who are already inside the system, and if you do business with and in China, they help you to resolve a lot of your problems. So they have real-time payment, no hidden fees, and you can do it inside the ecosystem. So it is safe, it is reliable, and it's fast. So um, if we have uh people watching this and they want to do business in and with China, we think World First is a really great choice, and we are very happy that they partnered up with us. So we put the link in the description if you're interested in doing safe, reliable business in China uh without any hidden fees. World First is your choice number one, and you will find all the information in the description. So, Oliver, how did it feel when you crossed one million on Kickstarter? Did it feel as good as you imagined?

SPEAKER_01

Uh the it is uh I actually took a picture. It was something that I wanted to do for a long time. I was honestly obsessed with with um with trying to get that um that magic number. Um and it's and it's it's getting more and more rare for solo creators to actually manage to reach that million dollar. I mean, I was I was happy, but it was like any goal that you reach, right? You're never never ecstatic, you're just more tired from all the work that you did to get there. Especially it's it's kind of like it's not like you know winning a race after like you know, running super quickly, and then everybody's applauding around you. It's like you're in front of your computer, you're by yourself. It's like you were celebrating yourself probably.

SPEAKER_03

You took the screenshot, like when did that happen? You were actively following, okay. When did it cross the line?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, there was there was it was like my family, uh, my wife's family, my wife, and a few friends that were following it, and every day they were sending me like screenshots, like, oh wow, you did 45k today, that's insane, you know. And um, so I'd always get like hot tips from from them, and then um, and then one day, uh, yeah, I crossed the million dollar. Um, I was, I think I was by myself, but the next day I did have a party with with a few friends. So you know made it.

SPEAKER_00

So you're actually doing all this on your own?

SPEAKER_01

Pretty much. Uh so I do have some people in my team that help me uh here and there, you know, manage everybody and and do everything. A lot of the a lot of the grind work is done by me. Um so I have a German uh business partner, so he did uh the electronics development and he worked a lot before the campaign, obviously, to get the product out. And then he he's recently worked to work on the the EQ, so the equalizer settings on the on the headphones, so they sound nice. But apart from that, he doesn't, you know, uh do all the all the rest. So manage the business, manage the teams, uh, manage the manufacturing uh here in Chen, which is you know a lot of work, and then uh grow the business as well. So that's all on me. So yeah, pretty much all by myself, but I do have you know never the nothing ever happens by yourself. So I do have a lot of people helping me as well. It's just that I have to you know be the be the one that's pushing everyone.

SPEAKER_00

But one thing that happens uh by yourself is you finding a problem, yeah, or identifying a problem and then saying, I need a solution for this. Yeah. So you build a hardware that solves what?

SPEAKER_01

It solves sleeping comfortably with headphones, right? That's pretty much it. And then you have some, you know, you know, imagine trying to fall asleep with these things. Um they're not they're not you know made for it. You roll around, they'll come in front of your face, um, you sleep on your side, they'll crush your ears, they don't have any uh noise canceling, you know, active or passive. And so the premise of the whole thing is to be able to sleep with headphones on your ears that don't touch them. So a lot of the solutions that exist today are either earbuds or headbands, things that wrap around, you know, the headbands that wrap around your eyes, they cover your ears, and so they always something is always touching your ears. And the cartilage of your ears is pretty sensitive. So when you're sleeping on your side, especially for like eight hours or something, that you know it just has to be a tiny bit hard and it hurts. You know, there's the fact that the smaller it is, earplugs, right? Earplugs are super tiny. But because you're sleeping on your side, as soon as you roll over, it's like there's pressure, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it and the foam ones are particularly harsh, they block a lot of noise, which is great. But as soon as you go on your side, they just sort of swim into your ear canal and they start you know tickling your throat, which is disgusting feeling. But um, but yeah, so that that was the the whole premise of it, is like really to try to fall asleep um on your side, on your back with the stuff that are really you know protecting your ears uh from the noise around it, and then being able to play whatever audio you want. So white noise, brown noise, uh your favorite podcast, um, you know, yeah, whatever type of music.

SPEAKER_03

So the sleeping market is actually like uh super hot. It's a very hot topic right now. Yeah, like it became even hotter when all these like tracking devices come out. Like I I bought myself one at two because it's I want to track why am I sleeping so bad? So that was also one of the problems that you faced before you started your whole journey thinking about building something for better sleep, right? So, how did that uh start your whole journey?

SPEAKER_01

So, like I I sleep terribly. Um, and I always kind of have. Yeah, um, a lot of it, you know, is due to stress. So I'm a pretty anxious person naturally, so I'm always stressing over um stuff, and I think that's probably what makes me such a good entrepreneur. Same with us. Oh my god.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I could I could track my like my device right now. It's just saying like five and a half hours of sleep on average, uh over the last 30 days. It's always like that. Five hours, four hours. I check the recovery, it's bad. Yeah, okay, fuck this.

SPEAKER_00

Then you get even more anxious, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well, that's that's that's why I don't have one. Yeah, yeah, that's exactly why I don't have one. And I know that a lot of the times the the whole reason why I sleep poorly is because of my anxiety. And you know, the only way that that I can sort of deal with that is through you know not looking at screens, not looking at you know, anything that's electronic, so nothing that sort of triggers me and and just trying to space out working out is a great way to manage my anxiety, reading a book is a great way to do it, meditating, all that kind of stuff. Nothing none of that requires technology, right? And and and I just when I when I feel disconnected from from all the all the media and and the electronic stuff, I do feel a lot more um I a lot less anxious. And that's that's that's kind of what I I try to do with with the headphones as well. I don't I don't want them to be uh something where you know you're screening. Yeah, I want them to be completely like you know your partner in sleep, not something that that sort of tracks you and tells you to do that and tells you to do this, and it's just there for you and you know it helps you when you need it, and um you tell it what to do and it'll do it for you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it's actually super interesting because I'm also somebody whose stress is is on like constant stress, basically. And then I tried so many things and solutions already. Um that's why I try to track it at least so that it it I can see if it fetches the uh uh matches the way I feel in my body. And then I thought, okay, maybe working out is a good good way to release the stress, but on the other hand, you have stress when you work out as well. Like you have stress when you work, mental stress, and then when you go to the gym, you have stress that you have on your body, right? So it's never never you never reach the point where you really relax. Yeah, so that's that was also one of the like is is the main problem that I have right now. That's why I find I find it particularly interesting, like the solution that you build.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you. That's the whole point, right? I mean, the only real time where you can actually be free of your anxiety or stress is when you space out completely of your mind, right? And meditating is is one of the best things you can do for that, really just exiting your mind and and and looking at it from afar. For me, like one thing that works really well for me is is doing ice baths and saunas, right? So going from one to the other, being in that like high stress environment in in the ice bath, yeah, where I have to completely retract myself from my body because if I think about it, then I I'm suffering. Whereas Yeah, Michael loves the ice bath.

SPEAKER_02

I love it. I love suffering also.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, but I mean it's suffering for something that's that that it gets you somewhere basically. Yeah, yeah. And then for feeling afterwards, exactly, right, exactly. And and another thing, uh same sort of thing uh through suffering is is the release, right? I like to I like to stretch, but I stretch to the point where it's really painful. Yeah. And and and I know that when I'm stretching to that point, I have to exit my body completely. I have to forget about the pain that's that's that's occurring in my body and go further. And when I do that, like I just go, wow, I feel very relaxed. And then obviously there's all the breathing that goes with it that helps a lot. Um, but yeah, that's that's that's what I found. And and the headphones, I mean, they don't you know make it painful, but they do they do help you space out and they help you space out through music, right? So um you can use any type of music that helps you space out, and but because it has the neck support and because it covers your ears, doesn't go inside, it it's sort of it's a it's basically like a pillow that wraps around your head, right? And so and it gives you the support that you need, so you could just completely become limp and stay in the same sort of position. And and that's really helpful for relaxing.

SPEAKER_00

So, but why would you say that you have this problem and you would go and solve it on your own and not just look if there's anything on the market that could help you?

SPEAKER_01

I did, you did, yeah. I did. I looked at a lot of different solutions, most of them were uh in ears, so the earbuds uh or the on ears, so the ones that were laying on on your head. There were some. Um there was uh this one guy who made some ear muffs for sleeping, um, but they they didn't block enough sound, um, and they were on the person's ears. So I'm like, I really want something that covers your ears, uh, doesn't touch them, and that blocks the noise and that can play um audio. That was that was the sort of thing. And then and then from there, um I saw you know all the problems that they had with with their product, and I tried to solve it with with mine.

SPEAKER_00

But you're not an entrepreneur by birth, right? You you are you studied uh solar energy? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Uh I studied uh renewable energy, renewable energy, yeah, renewable energy.

SPEAKER_00

So and then but how do you come from there to going to hardware, building a hardware startup on your own?

SPEAKER_01

That's a great question. And to be honest, it's it's just I I love making things with my hands. Part of my journey to become the CEO of Bistel was at the beginning to work as a carpenter, but I didn't become a carpenter because that was the only option that I had. I became a carpenter because I love working with my hands. I love making stuff, and so I've always made stuff, and my dad was uh my dad's an engineer as well, and he always taught me, he's like, Oh, you know, when I was younger, I was making I was making go-karts with lawnmowers and stuff like that. And I was like, Exactly right. All by myself. And so, you know, it always, it always kind of it always kind of got me thinking, um, you know, my brother and I we'd always go as kids, we'd do like dumpster diving and stuff like that, go and find some old toys and and rip them out and put them back together and you know, try to make some some helicopters and and some like robots and stuff like that with what we had. So it was always kind of been uh handy. And then the engineering, um, when I did my renewable energy uh engineering degree, I actually went into construction, right? And um, so what I did is that uh my thesis was uh basically around helping this orphanage in Thailand reduce their energy bills, and I went to the to the orphanage and I um you know looked around to try to find various methods to reduce their energy bills. And one of the things that I had to do for that thesis was to create a uh a 3D model of the building. The building was huge, right? I don't know how many square meters, but it must have been a couple thousand. And so I did the 3D model and I kind of fell in love with 3D modeling. Uh just the the the the fact that you could create something on your computer in 3D. I found that absolutely incredible. And I would go into not very useful detail in my in my 3D designs, but that eventually, you know, worked and stuff. And then I from there I went into um environmental environmentally sustainable design engineering for this boutique consulting firm in Australia. And my job was to uh design buildings uh in a more sustainable way, and one of them was to model the building in 3D um and apply different uh filters to the you know, windows, walls, uh stuff like that to try to reduce its energy efficiency or try to get it to a certain standard. And so that kind of got me to fall in love with 3D uh designing, and then you know, the two the fact that I really liked building things with my hands and that I could design things in 3D got me to to to the hardware space.

SPEAKER_00

This is not your first product on uh Kickstarter. You also did uh neck pillow, right?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, it was actually the V1 of uh the serenade.

SPEAKER_00

Okay.

SPEAKER_01

So the V1 of the Serenade was called the Sleep Muffs, and it was like from a aesthetic uh point of view, it's almost the same. So wrapped around the back of your neck, covered your ears, and you could sleep with it on your side, on your on your back and stuff like that. We did that first Kickstarter, and we co sold a couple hundred, and then from there we sold a couple thousand more from you know through the years, and we learned a lot from that first product, you know, all the the uh the problems that it had, the what the customer actually wanted, the issues with our supply chain. Um, you know, I learned how to become a a CEO as well, right? It's kind of like it's it's one of those things I always say, you know, I was a junior CEO CEO, and now I'm I've become senior. One day I'll actually be like probably partner CEO or something. But yeah, that's that's um so it taught me a lot. Um, and I and I basically used all the learnings from that first product from the customers that I had um to create this uh this the serenade. So and is this product still on the market? No, no. We've uh we've stopped that the production of that that product because we wanted to fully concentrate on the new product. And I mean it's pretty hard to you know to manage uh uh inventory for one, uh let alone two when you're a pretty small business. So I prefer to concentrate on something that I knew had a lot of potential. Um and then if we're you know later on, I I do think we we could um release another version of the sleep moss, um, which would be which would be a non-tech, like no electronic version of the serenade. So just just basic uh passive noise cancel.

SPEAKER_03

So that was basically the foundation of the whole okay, I'll go into the sleep um market. Yeah, um that was what when when was that?

SPEAKER_01

That was six years ago. I think that was in 2019. Yeah, okay. And uh essentially, you know, it's it's it's when I started, everybody's like, what are you doing in sleep? Yeah, it's it's just it's a niche market. Is it? Well, it's not anymore. So how is how big is the market? Well, there's around like 50% of people that sleep poorly. Um that that will have trouble sleeping because of noise specifically, uh, that identify as uh light sleepers. So that's 50% of them. And then you also have like you know a couple other dozen percent of people that don't sleep well at all, and then you only have a few percentage of people that actually sleep correctly. So but previously, you know, it was commonly accepted to sleep poorly, and you know, you just fight on, and especially if you were someone that slept a lot, you'd not be seen as as uh as someone that's efficient, you had to grind through and and work your ass off, right? Uh nowadays it's like if you're not sleeping, then you're not you know, we're we're we're the we're we're in the era of the optimized self, right? Yeah, biohacking, yeah, exactly. All of these things, yeah. And sleep is like sleep's the foundation of everything, right? So if you don't sleep, if you don't if you don't sleep correctly, then then nothing else works. Correct. And so now that everybody has understood that, uh we uh the sleep market's a lot bigger.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, that that's why it's so interesting. You started 2020, like six years ago, and then like all the tracking hype started also with group and aura, whatever. Yeah, and then how did it affect like the sec the six years? Like, what did you discover throughout the years?

SPEAKER_01

Uh well the the the sales grew naturally with the first product, like I didn't have to do anything because I I you would see that people were starting to get more and more interested, and so they try to find various solutions. Now, the funny thing is that nowadays, like the sleep market, especially in headphones, is still pretty small. So we have all the tracking stuff that's huge is exploding. But um, in terms of headphones, it's still a pretty niche market, and that's what we're trying to do, you know, which really trying to really trying to grab that market. There's a few big players, um, a lot of big-ish players. Um, but uh yeah, we're trying to you know attack the the problem from uh from a different angle with a different solution.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I haven't I haven't seen any sleeping headphones yet on the money, not from the big big brands like Bose or whatever.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, well Bose actually tried to do one. Okay. Um, but they had they had a lot of issues with with the product, and I think it wasn't a big enough moneymaker for them, so they kind of let it go. And that the the product was actually um taken by a few Bose engineers, and and they made a spin-off of that. Oh, really? Yeah. So these are now your competitors. Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So but but you uh you played a totally different league than them, right? Just a big corporate, but then you decided, okay, I will do it on my own, I will bootstrap this, I will go on Kickstarter. How do you actually start? So you have this idea. What is step number one? This is I guess over six years it's like thousand steps. Yeah, you go. So, what is step number one? You go on Google and do a market research, or yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01

You before you waste your time on a business idea, uh, you try to build a business plan to see if it actually is worth something. So the the fact that it's a personal problem does help to motivate you. But but the first step was definitely to you you start off and you go and see okay, what are there any competitors? And you go and see, you know, the available products that are that are there. You go and see if people are satisfied from the solution, what exactly are they doing uh back in the day we didn't have AI so I would like you know I I I did like a a massive spreadsheet of all the comments that I would I would see from the from the on on Amazon and and Google and stuff like that about different products that existed and then I'm like okay well there's nothing really that is sort of the solution that I want to create and it seems like uh the what the people are looking for in the reviews are things that my product could answer to right so they were look people looking for things that uh something that had high noise canceling and that's like a very common problem with uh people that sleep that they are they're often in pretty noisy environments either from their neighbors or their partner or they you know live near a train or like you know high traffic zone that sort of flares up at 5 a.m in the morning or at 12 p.m uh 12 a.m at night and so people were always trying to find a solution to to block out the noise and there's no and even even today there's there's really no solution that offers you know serious noise canceling and that was the premise of the first product as well on top of you know not being able to not touching your ears but also being able to to block a lot of noise that was the I I saw that and I'm like okay well that's what people want uh you know they want this but they also want all these other secondary things and so like what's the best solution to block out noise and you know comfortably and um that night I actually fell asleep with a pair of earmuffs and I'm like I'm gonna try this out you know see if it works and I woke up the next morning you know feeling sort of tired but still happy that I actually managed to fall asleep. So and stay asleep because I didn't have any noise but I was a bit sweaty and stuff like that. So I'm like okay I could I could probably make this into something that is uh worth sleeping with so that's when I started prototyping. And I think this is probably where a lot of people get lost but you know when you prototype you want to make it as cheap as possible.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. How do you prototype? I mean it's easy said but not easy done right yeah exactly right.

SPEAKER_01

So for me the way that I did it is that I basically took a pair of earmuffs that existed I took and I wrapped some some foam around it and I'm like okay well this kind of works. And then I'm like it's um and and then you know tried it a couple times and and then tried to it wasn't you know perfect it was pretty uncomfortable in certain situations. And then I tried to optimize the comfort I tried to optimize the noise blocking and then once you sort of once I sort of tried a bunch of different prototypes I'm like okay so this is the solution that I'm going for. I think this one is going to work. And so what I did from there is that I I hired an agency like an industrial design agency. And then they helped me create the 3D model because you know creating buildings is pretty easy it's like squares and stuff like that. But when you're doing industrial design it's like round 3D shapes which is a lot more complicated. It's not my not my realm. So they helped me to do that. And from there we got more complex prototypes. So stuff that we could you know that would resemble a bit more what we were going to try to to to sell. And then uh yeah once once I sort of got a a a prototype that I was happy with um that I'm like okay I think this could work I went to Kickstarter and I raised I think it was that's 100,000 Australian dollars um which is you know fluctuates with the exchange rate but I think it's like 7000 US now. And then basically use that money to launch first a batch of of uh sleep maps and then and then from that went did all the the the manufacturing side um but so that that whole process took me um from you know ideation all the way to manufacturing and delivering the product I think it took me two or three and a half years maybe a bit more I'm not sure I can't remember but pretty long time.

SPEAKER_00

It's quite long right yeah it's pretty long we had guests on the podcast it it took them six months.

SPEAKER_01

But they were like in Shenzhen doing it in Shenzhen yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so how how about like where was your uh industrial design team um they were in Australia in Australia okay yeah yeah yeah so the whole prototyping was also done in Australia prototyping was done in Australia and so the so the the the difficulty with these types of products is um you're actually trying to to create a feeling with your headphones right so it's very subjective and maybe there's a science that I'm not aware of but like you know ergonomics is is what we're trying to achieve with the product and everybody's different so being able to create something that is uh that works for absolute you know 90% of people that's what's really hard right yeah when they're like people that sleep on the on the back right people sleep on the sides and people that have big necks small necks big jaws small jaws big foreheads you know and it changes you uh so your your your product has to be able to change uh all the time has to be able to adapt. So how do we achieve this? Well we use um so there's foam and inside there's a there's a neck band and then there's like um this is a metal piece inside that that opens and closes but then also we have everything's articulated inside right so the ear cups are articulated as well so they move this way that way um there's like special slits at the back that allow to allow the headphones to open up really wide or or close like that or go like this and it's it's very flexible. And so achieving that design it was what took a lot of time and getting it comfortable was was what took a lot of time it has to be soft also right yeah yeah and and then you have to also you know it has to be soft has to be comfortable but it has to block a lot of noise and it has to have electronics. And to block a lot of noise and to have electronics you need to have hard parts in it right but to be comfortable it has to be soft. Yeah right so you're trying to you're trying to mix two things together that just don't work. Yeah they just don't work and and so you you take we took a lot of time trying to figure that out that the you know the perfect combination.

SPEAKER_03

So you have these two problems and then you find the industrial designer yeah and how much do they help throughout the whole process to like really solving the problem?

SPEAKER_01

They didn't really help to solve the problem what they they I came to them with the design and I told them this is what I need and they just basically put it into a a 3D CAD model.

SPEAKER_03

So there wasn't like a lot of engineering on their side okay so they were basically only doing the design for you then you do you you have to figure out if how you how you bring them both worlds together.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah yeah so the the engineering was done by me for everything that's uh ergonomics with the product. Oh wow yeah everything so how many iterations did it take uh we had like 36 prototypes okay which that that was just of the that was just of the headphone version but we had maybe you know 20 prototypes for the sleep muffs and then in terms of like ideas uh that we that we theoretically tested hundreds just hundreds it's just it was just trying to everything under the sun to to make it work it was incredibly difficult but yeah I think like this the the the the solution that we have now is pretty cool but so like the the the thing is is that it's uh it's not only hard to design the product right but then it's also hard to actually manufacture it yeah so it's it's it's not standard operation for any of the factories that we use at the moment on the the way that we um yeah we make it so yeah as soon as you do something new then uh we we heard we heard that from a lot of people here that build new products is always hard to find like yeah the factory that is helping you okay yeah you want something new that yeah yeah you know there's there are other factories that it's easier to just to repeat something that you've already done yeah and you'll make money out of it um it's always a risky endeavor to go and help someone that's first of all probably never had a product before exactly and on top of that something that you've never done and he's never done right so it's really a question of of of faith. Luckily we found um so I have a business partner in in Shenzhen as well that that helped me find all the different manufacturers. So we have like three main manufacturers uh that we use and you know from there those three main manufacturers have uh a a a you know constellation of of uh of suppliers that help out luckily everybody's really happy to to to work on the product everybody's like super excited they see the potential they see how good it is and and they they just really want to make it work uh so that was that's that's you know very very lucky so when was the first time you heard uh of Shenzhen I think it was it's probably uh when I was uh with the industrial designers so the first ones the guys that were in uh in Australia so they were like oh you have two choices either you make them in Australia or you spend a bit more time and you go and make it in Shenzhen at the time you know I had just came out of of um sustainability and I had done my engineering degree in sustainability and I'm like oh I really need to do something that's short circuit right so like something that's made and sold within the same area. And that was my motivation to go and make it in Australia and what I realized is that I kind of like shot my you know butt myself in the foot because the manufacturers were just in Australia are not made for consumer products. These guys were they work for like big companies big corporates so they don't really take care of you they don't care they have their business and they you know I remember once I was um I had I had told my my factory I'm like listen I need I need 600 units to be ready in four months plenty of time to make it right so I'm like I'm not worrying too much you know um and then I think it was like a month out I called him I'm like you know have you have you started ah fuck mate I forgot and so I forgot okay I forgot it was not even like we're gonna do it yeah it's like I forgot damn it so you know there's there's there's that he was still a nice guy you know thanks to him you managed to launch the the first couple thousand units of the of the sleep muffs which was great um you know without him I wouldn't have been able to do it um but it also you know taught me that um in in manufacturing you can't sort of just rely on on your on your factory to do it for you you have to um you have to micromanage a lot of a lot of things because these guys are so busy they have so much business right they're like doing this guy's product that guy's product this thing that thing and then so their attention is like torn everywhere and if you're not the guy that's going like where is it when is it done show me the show me the standing operating procedure show me this show me that show me how it's done I want to go and see it. Follow-ups are so important so that taught me a lot but yeah and so Shenzhen I learned about it there and and then I was like well I need to you know once once I I did the sleep mobs I'm like um I need actually what I need was a short circuit within the manufacturing because in Australia I had one guy that was doing one thing the other guy that was doing this other thing. I was importing products from China to make certain parts and I had like you know this this sort of global supply chain and I was this you know tiny player this makes no sense right and so I'm like well I knew that in Shenzhen there was everything right you go from one manufacturer to the other in like you know one hour um car ride so I'm like this is this is where it needs to be made so when did you come here for the first time? I came here in I think it was two years ago for the first time yeah so how was it for you? Honestly it was pretty daunting because at the time I did not have um I didn't didn't have any money and I was kind of like risking it all you know I had I had I had one I think I probably had 10k in the bank account I was like fuck me if this thing doesn't work yeah then I'm screwed and so um and so I I I went to Shenzhen I remember I was like you know in the hotel room kind of like fucking crying or frustration. I just I was I was like oh my god what am I doing here and I had arrived I think I had arrived so I had arrived in Hong Kong and it was late I think it was 1130 or something like that. And I grabbed one of the you know shuttles to go from Hong Kong to Shenzhen so I arrived in Shenzhen it was probably 1230 at night I had in the country I'd never been all by myself and I didn't speak the language I didn't know you need to have I sort of knew you had it needed WeChat and stuff like that. I didn't I didn't realize you had no we chat I did I did I I had a weChat but I I didn't properly install my my bank card on it so like I couldn't pay I think I my internet wasn't working somewhere and I was like I didn't know where I didn't know where the hotel was because I had taken like this this cheap hotel that was like hidden inside this building just like it was like crazy. And I got here yeah if I had to go into the hotel room and and uh yeah just sat down on the floor I'm like fuck what am I doing here and then uh and then the next day um I met with my my Chinese business partner for the first time you know uh face to face and he was super nice um and and it automatically I know I I felt reassured to be uh working with him and in Shenzhen and then we went to the factories and stuff like that and that's when I started getting excited I'm like oh wow because I I love you know making stuff and seeing people make stuff really gets me uh excited so you know seeing all that happen I was you know I'm like this is the right place to be where and how did you find your business partner then was it from the industrial design agency that gave you the contact from so he's also industrial designer or no so the way that I found him was kind of like you know um through multiple layers. Um so I met so I went on to Kickstarter and I wanted to find someone that was trustworthy, someone that had made electronic products before um I mean like in electronics you can you can it's pretty easy to to to mess up um something and it doesn't work or the battery fails or some of the connections aren't working or the chip doesn't connect to your Bluetooth and and it's and the thing is so small that it's hard to to know what happened you know the the wrong thing and and how it happened. So I'm like I need someone trustworthy. And on top of that you know making a new product um the shape of it's really hard the manufacturing process is is fairly hard and I invented the my manufacturing process so I had to explain to them so I needed someone trustworthy. And I went on to Keystarter and I you know went through they have a list of partners basically on there and I saw this one company it was called Dragon Innovation and I really liked the name very Chinese yeah and like oh wow that's cool and then and so I clicked on it and I saw that they had worked you know with like huge names like uh the Pebble smartwatch um they had worked with uh some 3D printers they had worked with iRobot they had worked with um the ninja blenders they had worked with all these bunch of variety of different electronic products and I'm like well these guys definitely know what they're doing right um so I went onto the website and I sent them an email nobody answered um yeah yeah this is the fate of email to China nobody answered so I started trying to figure out why they weren't answering because I really wanted to work with them um because they seemed great and then I saw you know I had I went on on on the on the website they had a video and the CEO was was talking so the CEO was was American and I saw his name appeared on in the video uh and so you know went on LinkedIn and sent him a message and he's like oh yeah we actually closed the business because of COVID but um you know I do this other thing now uh let's let's have a call and we'll see we'll see what what I can do for you. So we had a call chatted uh for a long time and then he's like listen Ollie you you know you seem like a very capable guy um I'm not gonna sell you my services because he was someone that was um uh he was basically helping people manufacture products but just by himself he's like I'm not gonna sell you my services I'll just put you in contact in contact with some a few manufacturers and you see how how it goes. And so he put me in contact with a few manufacturers didn't work they were trying to charge me uh you know 10k plus uh 10k units plus like 250 000 worth of of uh of uh of fees just to get the product started that's not even counting the not even counting the the the price of the product right so I'm like no I'm sorry so you communicated all by yourself yes in English yeah yeah and then uh so I I I went back to the to the guy who's uh called uh Scott Miller and I I went to him and I and I asked him um like listen you know the the contacts you gave me didn't you know very competent people but I don't think they're right for me and he's like oh listen my old business partners um are actually launching the Dragon Invasion again through this other name um I'll put you in contact with them and so I went into contact with them and you know they they were smaller they had uh contacts with smaller manufacturers with people that were nimble you know really eager to to get new product out there and and work um on something that was new and I'm like these these are the these are the people that I need and so that's how I met my business partner in in Shenzhen yeah was there a time in this six years where you said oh I want to quit I think it's like a it's at least at least once a day once a day it's like you're in front of your computer it's like what am I doing?

SPEAKER_00

I mean luckily you didn't then you had uh you did your Kickstarter in July 2025. Yes right your goal was 10k and you got it in 59 minutes and then in the end raised over one million.

SPEAKER_01

Pretty wild yeah pretty wild pretty wild yeah it was insane it's actually it's I mean not to gloat but any it was it's it's one of the one of the Kickstarter campaigns if you look at the daily amount of money that we made is insane. So the the generally what happens is that in a in a in a Kickstarter you're gonna have like a very big first couple of days and then it's gonna go into this sort of valley of death and then it'll come back towards the end where people get excited or uh will have a lot of FOMO.

SPEAKER_00

So our campaign went like this it went like okay and it's like uh more than 3,000 backers.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah so it's not just your family no actually I mean I do come from a Catholic family so you know it's pretty big but yeah no so what do you think why why um were people so excited about it? I think it it's because it it it it just solves a real problem. I think you know in Kickstarter um there's a it's it it's a it's a real innovation and people are on Kickstarter um because of that they they they want something that's innovative something that's different to what exists already on the market. It's not something that's you know just a smaller version of an earbud. It's actually uh something that's really innovative. And you know I had done a previous campaign so people trust me I had delivered the I had delivered on that campaign. And yeah so it was that there's also the fact that I think that I'm a solo creator um so I think people like that especially on Kickstarter uh you know that you're there to support creators uh not like big businesses now are actually using so you have like Anchor uh the the the Chinese brand who uses Kickstarter to launch uh a lot of their products which is I mean kudos to them you know but they don't really need it right they're they're they're benefiting from this whole system that's supposed to help people that are much smaller.

SPEAKER_03

Kickstarter's not unhappy because they you know raise like tens of millions of of of of dollars so everybody's happy but yeah yeah but I mean what you're solving is like uh it is the solution to a problem like what these other tracking devices are doing is basically saying okay you have a problem but then how do you solve it right? That that's definitely something I believe is playing into your cards.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah we had a lot of founders telling us that Kickstarter is not the goal Kickstarter is just the beginning and sometimes even the the Kickstarter money is not enough to really bring it to level two. How did you feel about that?

SPEAKER_01

Because I did a first Kickstarter I knew everything that was all the costs that were involved in a Kickstarter. So running a Kickstarter campaign is insanely expensive. Is it tell us it's very expensive like first of all you have to get the product to a certain shape before you can bring it into Kickstarter right so that's that costs a lot of money. I think we we spent uh you know$700 and something thousand dollars over the the the course of the six years that we were building it. So it's it's my money, it's my parents' money it's my brother's money it's money that I made with the first product as well. All the all the profit that we had from there, we put it into the into the into the new business. And then, you know, once you get the product to to there, you have to find um you have to create all the marketing assets, you know, which which cost you maybe 10 to 20 grand. And then you have to include your video, your pictures, your 3D designs, all that kind of stuff. And then you have the marketing agencies that the marketing, the big marketing agencies that, so the ones that, you know, for example, that we used, take 15%, right, of of the sales that they bring in, which uh for us translated to around 12.5% of our um revenue. Uh so that that's they take that. But you know without them, uh you can never reach the level. I I could have never reached a million dollars without them. That's impossible. So I I knew that with my first product I knew that you know to be able to reach massive heights you need help. And obviously everybody needs to get paid and that's how it works. So so then there's that and then Kickstarter takes you know five percent of the earnings that you make and then you have another three percent that goes to Stripe. Um so you know 15% plus 8% that's 23% that's just in just in just to use the platform and and try to raise money. And then obviously then you have the taxes then you have uh you have to pay yourself you have to pay the people that you work with you have to pay for the product you have to pay for the shipping you have to do all this kind of stuff right and so if you don't manage to if you don't manage your costs straight from the beginning then you can get screwed very easily. You can lose money on a Kickstarter campaign extremely easily. And because a lot of people have done this have only done one never done a Kickstarter campaign most people most creators then they don't know how to cost a lot of the a lot of the costs. They don't know all the hidden things they don't know that your logistics partner tells you yeah it's going to cost you$15 to ship and in the end they're like oh well it's actually 28 right nobody tells you that but your your logistics partner assumes that you know because they've been doing this their whole life so like well you didn't know that the shipping costs fluctuate I don't I don't understand you know and you're like well no I didn't know then your real goal wasn't like 10k right what does what what number did you have in mind? Uh so my real goal was$800,000. So I was like I'm like if I reach that I'll be happy and uh I did I did reach that and uh yeah so the the the the 10k is you know it's a you know it's a it's a it's a Kickstarter um trick right you want to overachieve yeah so in Kickstarter there's the the Kickstarter algorithm right um and a lot of them so we had I think we had twenty three percent I can't remember exactly above twenty percent of our pledges um came from Kickstarter itself right so that's pretty much free money um free pledges right from the people um that back the project and well from Kickstarter I mean so I didn't have to pay the marketing agency I just had to pay them 5% plus 3% fee and um and so the the you you want to be able to rank highly within the Kickstarter algorithm. So on the on the pay basically when you know when somebody goes onto Kickstarter they're gonna go into their favorite category where the biggest categories are generally like design and technology and then you go into like all the subcategories and then essentially you want to be high ranking on those categories. So you have to think of Kickstarter kind of like of uh Amazon for people that like new stuff right and um so they're gonna click on their their favorite category and then they're gonna start browsing and they'll browse in the first maybe 20 uh the first 20 products uh 20 campaigns that are on there so it's the first page maybe the second page um and if you're not at the very top or at least within the first 10 then you're not you're not gonna get hardly any of the pledges from directly from Kickstarter. So you're gonna be paying your pledges a lot more right and then yeah I've actually forgot to also mention right uh on top of the 15% plus the 8% from Kickstarter you have to pay Facebook all the all your marketing ad or your all your marketing spend sure right sure sure sure so you're paying for the marketing spend you're up your you know that we spent$212,000 crazy we spent$180,000 in a month there that's actually very interesting because when when you I would say wow you got one million that one million goes directly in your pocket but it's uh no no you don't and and you know you have to manage those costs you have to front that that money for like a month and um I actually I I went to I went to amex I'm like like listen guys I have this I have this great project I'm gonna launch this this thing and it's gonna work but I need your help I need a lot of money and they're like mm-hmm mm-hmm mm-hmm let's see and they started you know looking into your business and you know your your I've always paid my paid my my credit card bills on time and and info and stuff like that. But you know my the business has been alive for a while and they they saw that I wasn't like turning over you know hundreds of thousands of of of um of dollars so you didn't want to make sure that they were just what they did is they what they did is they actually capped my account it did it went the other way it was the other way they actually capped the account so I'm like oh fuck shit and um as a German says keiner schlafenhunde means don't wake up sleeping dog exactly right I woke up the sleeping dog like before I was checking my my limit and it was like 100k 150k I'm like wow we got this massive limit so cool and then I wonder I woke up the dog and he's like I'm gonna limit you at 50k uh no 38k that was it I'm like oh shit but luckily I had um I had a friend who has I have a friend he's my best friend and he has a very successful business and um he's like listen if you if you manage to prove that um what you're doing has uh return then I'll lend you some money and he lended me 150 000 euros so how did you do that how did you prove well I basically had uh all the money in my bank account plus the 30k from the from Amex and I was like the first couple of days I have to prove that I I can get a higher OS so I can then you know go and see my friend and tell him like listen you know I I think this is this is worth your your money I'm gonna I'm gonna be able to refund you and then some as well. And so essentially like we did the I I told I told the guys the marketing agency I'm like you know listen you're gonna spend on the first day you're gonna spend two thousand dollars. I actually wanted them to spend five thousand and they're like this a bit much keep it you know calm down we don't know yet so it's gonna work so and they're like okay we'll do two thousand and then and then um and then I told them like okay so the next day just go up to three thousand and four thousand and then go quickly up to five thousand because I know this product's gonna work even though like probably later on I'll explain that but um and then and then so the first couple of days we had this insane row ass we were we were you know spending a dollar on making seven dollars wow and we were like oh my god I was and this one I went to see him I'm like listen listen you asked me to prove to you that it was gonna work look it works every time we spend a dollar we make seven dollars and he's like okay here's 50k and then he's like go and spend that and and show me if you can if you can continue making the money and I'm like okay I'm like you know when go and see the marketing agency I told me you know now push put some cash on the fire you know go go and go and get some pledges and uh and they did and they did and the the pledges just kept on coming in coming in coming in coming in and it obviously there was a lot of work behind that there was I was constantly behind my computer you know answering um comments going on Reddit Facebook uh LinkedIn um Instagram all these places where people were hanging out on Kickstarter as well asking questions doing stuff and and that really created momentum I think my my winning ad in the end had maybe 650 likes and and um I don't know 400 or 500 comments on an ad right which is unheard of and um and that's because I just like fueled the thing right and Facebook obviously loves that loves that I was I was getting some you know useful comments but a lot of them so yeah he has he had at one point you had like people started fighting on the comment section it's hilarious and I was just watching that I'm like I'll let I'll let them be and uh but yeah and so and so it just kept on coming the ROAS was always good and I would go and see my friend I'm like listen we're running out of cash on the 50k extra he's like okay here yeah which was which was really nice but actually actually the first time he gave me 50k I'm like uh you know I kind of felt bad to go and ask him for some more money and I went to go and see this um these this is this mechanism that exists in kick in within the Kickstarter environment where these guys can lend you money and they lend you like up to 100k but for this crazy rate this crazy rate I think it's like five percent a month right somehow laugh yeah yeah that's piling up yeah yeah yeah and it piles up you know real quick I mean you don't have the option right they're taking a huge risk and I'm like uh you know me and so I want to go so after the fifty after the first 50k I went to go and see my friend I'm like listen I have this option where these guys are giving me you know 100k for 5% but I mean I definitely prefer um what you know I didn't really present it that way to him but he's like man don't do that those are fucking sharks don't go and see them I'll lend you the money and I'll make you a better write as well and so I ended up you know borrowing from him 150k at two and a half percent which is you know still a sizable amount of of interest but I had the money and he was happy I was happy happy day so and how how do you sleep right now? Um well my anxiety levels are through the roof so and uh you know so by solving the problem you've created more problems for yourself right well that's that's it that's it I guess that I guess that's the life of any anxious person right you always try to find a solution and then you get anxious but at what stage are you now with the product? We are planning to start shipping in April. So we're at the moment we have um you know we've done a lot of samples um like you know 50 or 60 different samples and we're in the process of finalizing a few things before launching production but we should be um we should be launching production fairly soon and then um yeah I'm delivering in in April. So you're in a very starting shipping in April sorry okay yeah so you're in a very hot phase right now right yes so what what uh how does a day in your life look like no normally you're in Lisbon in Portugal right normally yes yes yes so how how does it look like I try to sleep as well as I can generally go and have breakfast and then start working but like I I'm much more efficient uh in the afternoon uh which is why I decided to take the podcast at this time not in the morning and so um in the morning I I sort of like do more of the easier tasks and then in the afternoon I go and sort of go into the deep dive situations where I really have to think and and innovate and and invent and stuff like that where I you know there's more creative stuff that I have to do.

SPEAKER_03

So you're already thinking about like future products and development because you have to have like a sort of plan and vision right how yeah how you keep up going yeah and running the business after you've shipped the first product and obviously getting some feedback from the customers and then improve also the production scaling scaling the manufacturing so how did that is that going like what is your vision?

SPEAKER_01

The vision is that what I'd like to do so what I what I want to do is that I want to I want to create an emotional product with my headphones. I don't want I don't I don't want the headphones to be uh just a tool but I want you know the headphones to really be a partner and I think a lot of that is is through uh the way that it feels obviously so that that's what we control um and that's the same with every single product but then it's the way that it looks I think we we use we cover the headphones with fabric and that fabric can be changed with a bunch of different uh covers so the the cut the fab the fabric's removable you can put it in the wash and stuff like that and what I'd like to do is is do various um like you know dozens of covers change them change the style at least every three months go and offer that to the customer so when they put the cover on and then put the headphones on it makes them feel some way you know it's the same way that when you wear you know your favorite shirt I know I'm I'm obsessed with my boxers. I I love every time I have boxes with like very colorful stuff and and depending on my mood I'll I'll wear different ones and I know that that one's gonna make me do this and this one's gonna be and it's stupid but you know it just makes you feel some way it's you're emotionally tied to that. And I'm emotionally tied to that because I love it. They're comfortable but as well because they look the that they they look exactly what I the the way that I want them to look and and make me feel so that's one of the one of the things that I want to do with the product is make it something that's emotional. So when you wear it you feel a certain way and it helps you fall asleep because you feel that way when you wear it. But I also want to obviously improve the product make it more noise canceling make it better sounding make it more comfortable and you know that's just going through the feedback loop of the customers listening to what they have to say identifying you know which which person um has the the right sort of feedback and how you can integrate that feedback into your product and into your manufacturing and then you know going through that loop again and again and again and again working on that. And then that's the main goal and that's what I've thought about a lot. And then there's obviously some some different approaches that I want to go to and that would be to create um basically an app that would help with different sounds and different things like that where people could basically choose what they want to listen to with sleepscapes that are made for them. Oh yeah no there that's a couple there are a couple of apps like Endel or so where you can also yeah there's a few of them yeah like Noisely where there's Calm is a massive one where they are headspace as well like you know these these but this I don't I don't want to go into the meditation space. I just want you know just noise and stuff like this this is a whole other business. I mean you can imagine how much money they spend already on their stuff they don't have a hardware product right you still want to do it alone or do you want to do the next JBL or Bose or I don't know like I don't I don't necessarily have the ambition to to become the next Apple I definitely have the ambition to make an absolutely fantastic product and if that brings me to to become the next you know Apple or Bose well then why not?

SPEAKER_00

But now in a couple of weeks you now have to first uh ship like three thousand uh two hundred um parcels to to to your backers yeah how does it work will they send it directly from here or will they go to war ho warehouse or how does it work?

SPEAKER_01

Basically the so the the manufacturer packages like the individual products sends it to the logistics partner. Logistics partner has a list of uh orders um he scans products puts them into uh a box and then closes the box and ships it directly from China to the to the end user and then that whole logistics uh goes through obviously various hands because you know not everybody uses the same logistics partner but so we have that and then we also have we're sending um some in bulk through uh to our a warehouse that we have in the US so uh how is how far developed as a product now is it like 100% ready or are you still doing some small changes? Um product's never ready until it ships right yeah yeah yeah yeah that's why you're here right yeah yeah exactly that's why I'm here yeah that's why you're still anxious yeah yeah and I'll probably still be anxious even once I say oh it's finished because it's never really finished right yeah yeah it's never filling it's always there's always something more that you can do something more that you can you can make you know you can make it better there's always a way you can make it better.

SPEAKER_03

But you already have like a kind of high quality product right yes when it comes to pricing it's uh yes it is a premium price yeah it is a premium price right so how did you come up with the price then so the pricing is there's there's obviously what your competitors sell for, right?

SPEAKER_01

So my competitors are mainly earbuds and headbands uh so the most expensive earbuds are selling at$350 US so typically headphones are more expensive. So you'll look at any type of headphone high quality headphone it's always more expensive. And then you look at the features of those headphones and you're like well you know Bose for example has the Quifort Ultra they have the passive and the active noise cancellation they're selling for I think$429$439. So we have the same sort of tech that that they're using. And I'm like well you know on top of that mine's like super comfortable and you're gonna be wearing it you know eight hours a night so I'm like I'm not creating product that you're gonna throw away you know next year. So I'm creating product that's gonna last. So obviously my customer is going to buy one thing and then I'm not gonna see him unless he buys obviously the the covers which is I would appreciate but it doesn't have to then he's he's well I won't see him again until you know whenever he wants to upgrade or until we have the next innovation. So you have to price that as well because it is obviously expensive to attract your customer I mean you guys probably know that you have to spend a lot of money on ads to attract your leads and then once you've attracted your lead you have to transform that lead into a paying customer and that you know it's a pretty expensive exercise right so you have to factor that in you have to factor the price of of your product you have to factor a whole bunch of stuff as well so actually I I have a I have a list. Because it's a question that we ask that people ask me so in the cost of a product so there's a product cost there's a customer acquisition cost there's a logistics cost so warehousing and shipping there's the sales tax transaction fees customer service costs returns and non-delivered parcels refunds then there's the contractors so marketers legal team accountants graphic designers 3D artists video and photography product design then there's capital cost which is the molds, materials licenses compliance um stock of your own product so if you can't buy more stock of the what you what you have then you're never going to be able to sell so you have to you know take that into account into your product as well into your profit um you have to loan repayments to the bank the interests of those loans as well 5% yeah yeah exactly yeah subscriptions to all your software um oh yeah oh yeah yeah it's huge like Shopify and all the e-commerce apps as well and then you have your office expenses your travel expenses your salaries to your employees and then if you have enough money you'll pay yourself anxiety level through the roof yeah that's why you have to bring it on paper yeah out of your brain yeah and you see it okay and then you look at it at night oh fuck I can't sleep it's like okay there's uh left for me tonight that is exactly what I think that uh building hardware is nothing for for people who just want to have fun that is like if you're not serious about your vision no you yeah you really have to go all in it's crazy I have this in my bank account like lend me some money I know this is gonna work yeah I'll go all in yeah yeah yeah and you have to be extremely well organized as well if you're not then you know and you're saying oh yeah I can go and spend that money oh I can go and spend that money and then what happens is that you you know you get less and less of it and then you get you get screwed and you have nothing left. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

So what is the the one the biggest advice you would give to people to our listeners who want to build hardware by themselves?

SPEAKER_01

I think a a lot a lot of hardware founders and I I used to be a university lecturer as well um at UNSW in Australia after my carpenter stint um and I taught entrepreneurship and I saw that a lot of entrepreneurs didn't actually they they they fell in love with their solution and not the problem and so they were they they would try to adapt their solution to the problem every single time instead of saying right you know this is the problem how am I gonna just bring it back to you know fundamentals to be able to to solve the problem that customers actually uh looking to solve and proposing various solutions to get it to work. I think that's like number one but before you do that do your business case. Okay go and see what your competitors are doing go and see how much they're selling for go and see how much money you can make try to try to you know build a list of assumptions of all the costs that would go into into the thing and be able to build a list of assumptions of of what your competitors do and and all their problems and stuff like that and try to verify those those assumptions but build a business case see if there's enough money for you to make and then if there's enough money go and and that's that's all based on the on the problem right that's all based on the problem every single time and then if there's enough money in that problem then you go and find a solution to that problem. And you don't find the solution first And then you identify the problem, and then you go into your business case. Yeah, that's actually super valuable.

SPEAKER_00

It is, yeah. I said it before, and I'll say it again. The people I admire the most are engineers with a business mindset. But I will add it's engineers plus carpenter and a business mindset. Then you can be very successful. Thank you, Oliver. It was amazing. Thank you. Appreciate it. Really appreciate it, guys. Real life MBA. There you go. Thank you.