Ep. 17: This Frenchman Built a Humanoid Robot in China

"I did my best. Next, do the same in France." - Jules Thevenon, The Forge Humanoid Robotics

A French founder spent 10 years in China, built a humanoid robot, and couldn't raise a cent. His engineers left for Unitree and Agibot. So he closed his Shanghai company and is starting over in France. We sat down with Jules Thevenon in Shanghai to ask why.

In this episode:

• Why 10 years in China ended with closing his humanoid robot startup
• The funding wall for a foreign deep-tech startup in China
• Watching his engineers leave for Unitree, Agibot, and other top humanoid companies
• "If I was an investor, I might think the same" - understanding the skepticism
• From exchange student to finance controller to selling Lingang to the world
• Why he builds robots for the elderly, and going minimalist in France
• Why he'll still rely on China's supply chain
• Foreigners in China peaked in 2016, and what that means

About Jules Thevenon:
Jules is the founder of The Forge Humanoid Robotics. French, he spent about 10 years in Shanghai, earned a finance master at Shanghai Jiao Tong University, and promoted the Lingang special economic zone before building a humanoid robotics startup. After closing it in China, he is rebuilding in France with a focus on robots for elderly care.

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The Forge Humanoid Robotics

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Transcript

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In China, what we did, we designed a humanoid robot and we build also the humanoid robot. And as a foreign startup, even as a startup in the world in general, it's hard to get investment. So foreign startup in China, it could be a bit harder. And maybe I didn't meet the right people. And the competition is crazy. Let's say you are a foreign investor, you look at the foreign startup, the French, the most famous in Robotics. You look at the French foreign startup in China, and you manage robot, they are like impossible. He cannot compete. He cannot compete. Which I understand. If I was an investor, I might think this is so if you don't find the the right people who give you money, then for sure the engineers will go to Unitree or go to Alibor. Then we try. We open a startup, we build something, then we try to find investors. We didn't find all my engineers find a let's say stable normal job in humanoid robot in other company. Everything was done good. Me, myself, I'm like, okay, I done my best. Next, do the same in front. So Jules, we I want to start with a sentence and then you tell me what you think about it. Okay. Okay. So my uh my thesis is China is the single best place in the world to build a human at humanoid robot. Right or wrong? Uh I would not say right or wrong. I uh to build, yes, to design, I don't know. What is the major difference building and designing? Building, you basically once you have your design uh on you know on the computer, the 3D design, you choose the material, the joint, the shape, everything to put together, the component, the part. Then you ask a factory to build it, and then you put them together. The design is how it's gonna be shape. For example, you have the arm of the humanoid robot, which shape it's gonna have, uh, which the kind of joint you're gonna use, which kind of mechanical design you will think about to be really smooth. That's design. Then build it is like, okay, I want to build something like this. Just ask the factory to tell them, look, you need to you need uh this dimension, this material, uh, this time. Please build it. Then they build it, but they don't necessarily know uh what you will use this part for. This is this is building. So the factory doesn't really know what uh like how to design, they don't really have no no, it's not about a factory is made uh mainly is to build, design is made by other kinds of engineers. Uh but you you I can give you another example back in the past. Uh for example with Tesla, uh, the design of Tesla car was done always in US, and then some were built in China. Now China knows also how to design it, and we have so many electric cars. But if you look at the iPhone, the iPhone is still designed. I don't know exactly what is happening these days, but at least uh some years ago the the iPhone was still designed in US. So the design is yeah, the how how you bring the assembly, how you bring everything together, and build it is uh is a factory tell them exactly what to do and they do it. So to answer your question, um build for sure, yeah. Design, I don't know, it's still a good place to design, but Europe and US are very good at designing, also. We'll talk about this later. So I asked this question because you know, like our podcast is and and me personally, my mission and like my my vision, my belief is like I always think the future is happening in Asia. And actually, uh Michael and me, when we started this podcast before we even recorded the first one, you always were on our list uh for a podcast guest because I saw your LinkedIn or something, and I said, Okay, there is a European guy building a robot in China. It was like um maybe uh six months ago. And then I said, Okay, we have to talk uh to him because we always have a friend who tells us nobody talks about the success stories of people, of foreign people, entrepreneurs building stuff in China, and then uh it didn't happen, like uh because most of most of you were recording in Shenzhen. So the people see we have a new environment here because we have to uh we are filming in Shanghai right now, because I really needed to talk to you because you had uh you a very viral LinkedIn post last week, or no, no, last week, last month, I think, where you were saying you're leaving China, you're not building a robot in China anymore, right? Building, but maybe not design. I think so, but you're moving. But you you already started your company like one and a half years ago, right? So, how far is design and building for your own robot now? Oh uh uh it's it's in fact, uh, we are in China what we did, we design a humanoid robot and we build also the humanoid robot. Now moving all the operations to France, we're gonna start from scratch from France. Because in China, by designing and building, I learned from the past mistake. So I'm doing something more efficient now in France. So so I I I'm not sure if this is true. We will have to talk about it later. So let's start from the beginning. So you moved to China as a student, right? Oh, yeah. I moved, you know, with some university you got like double diploma. So I moved here uh because we have a part university partner. And you studied finance back then, right? I studied engineering in France and then finance in China. And then uh your your first job or your first mission was also to promote Shanghai and uh the district of Lingang to the world. So I did a master uh so I've been 10 years in Shanghai. I did a master of engineering first, then I did a master of finance in Shanghai, then I worked four years as a finance controller, then I worked four years uh yeah for a Chinese state-owned company, so uh company related to the Chinese government to develop a special area of Shanghai called Shanghai Lingang. And then one year and a half ago, I also opened a company to create a humanoid robot. So, how did you come from this job of being a student, being a controller, to thinking, okay, I have to build a humanoid startup in China? Honestly, I think it's about the age. Like how old are you? You look so young. I'm 32. 32. I'm 32. I think honestly, it's because in this job, uh, where I was working with a state-owned company in China, I met many consulates, many ambassadors, many top CEO, many top directors. And and I I kind of get the feeling I was like, eh, I can do it. Like people doesn't look so special, like uh opening like creating a company and make it like something successful and big doesn't seem so hard. Because in fact, I have the chance with this job in China to meet so many people that after at the end of meeting so many people during four years, I was like, okay, I can do something also. But those people were mainly Chinese CEOs or only foreigners, Chinese from all over the world, because Shanghai Lingong, uh, it's uh one of the most international places in China. So the main focus was to attract foreign investment in Lingong. Oh okay. So I met yeah, many, many foreign uh consulates, ambassadors, top companies. Yeah. So did you succeed in attracting FDIs for Lingang? Yeah, yeah. Uh we succeed, but you know, uh Lingong is uh Shanghai Lingong is like developing for it's it's it's a plan for 30 years. Okay. There is 10 years and 20 years, and so it's step by step. Yeah, we did, but it's growing step by step. You got more and more foreign companies there, but yeah, and then most of the investment that you attracted were for technology, or how did you end up okay saying okay, I can do it myself, I will do robots because robots are all over the place now in China, or because of your background, or why for me personally, robot it's robot for elderly people. Like if you ask me to make robots for factory, I'll be like, uh I will let other people do it. But it's it's it's robot for elderly people. How you come? Um I I understand quite well you know mechanical engineering, electronic engineering, robotics in general. This technology I quite understand. If you ask me to do nuclear, I would be like, I don't fully understand what is happening in there. But robotic, I'm like, yeah, I can do it. Secondly, I think in our life we need to help people. It's kind of a goal. I mean, it's quite obvious for me. You think what do you do with life? And at the end, like, ah, help people seems something good to do. So, and I think about my grandparents, my parents, me when I will get older, my daughter, when she will get older. I'm like, I want to do a robot for them. For me, for my parents, for my daughter, for everybody. Yeah. So, what is the idea? What is your robot about? Is it more social um emotion support? Or I will I won't say it's everything, but it will take years. But the first prototype we will will develop is like a walker. You know, when elderly people need to walk, they are they have a walker too. So a robot walker. So basically, there is a screen, and you can help them to walk, give them target every every every day. For example, okay, we did uh 20 steps today, tomorrow we will do 25 step speaking to them, uh, if they want to send a message to their children, uh, and also moving by itself. For example, your your grandfather, your grandmother is teaching, and the worker is there. She has come, come, come. The worker, come, and you can use it. How far is the prototype now? Uh, we start everything from scratch. So we are starting the design last week. Oh, really? I mean, we I saw some pictures already. I closed the Chinese company two weeks ago. So, but we are we we we start the design, no, the real design, like the design that we can send to the factory after. What I sent you, it was a beautiful design, like uh just a design, but not with all the engineering characteristics. Oh but now we are starting the real design, like the material, the joint. Like we basically will send to the factory to build after. So, when did you start your Chinese company? What one year ago. One year ago. Yeah, and now you're closing it down already. Closing it down, yeah, yeah. Why is not about because I will not come back to China. I I can open maybe I will I will you know I will go back in France and then later come back in China and open a new company. It's if you open a Chinese company and you are not in the country, could be quite complicated. For everything, then it's your passport and you need to be there. So I prefer to close and open maybe later if I need. So uh, when you said like you had the idea that you see other people, other businessmen, they're doing their business, it cannot be so hard, right? So, what is that's what you said, right? Yeah, so so what what did you what is the first step you did when you said, Okay, I have an idea, I want to build a robot for the elderly, then you do all the administrative stuff, you open the company, you and so on and so on. How do you go on from there? I think it would be a bit like uh you know everybody's service, but that's the true. It's about who you meet. You got you can get the idea, the idea, but you need to meet the right people to help you to, for example, for the company in China, is because I met uh a very a very good Chinese engineer, and he very loved the idea about building a humanoid robot for elderly people. And so because we're together in this, he has access to university to use the machines, 3D printing, and so on. So if I didn't meet him, I'd I don't know where to start. I need to use my own money, it would be like too much for me to spend. But I meet him, and after I meet other universities, so it's a you know, I meet the right people, and then in China we can start to build together, think about you know, how do we do everything together? And for France, the same is happening, in fact. I met some French engineers, and they also love the idea. And so, even if I'm not in France now, they already started design. So it's honestly it's about first robotic for a jolly, but then it's like who is in it with me? Who wants to do it with me? You cannot be alone, it's about who you meet, also. So you don't work together with your Chinese partner any longer as soon as you go back to France? Yeah, for sure. No, I'm still in contact with them. For example, uh, one once we design in France and later we need like to build in a factory, I will ask them quotation, how much it is to be there, for sure. That are friends, still friends, and maybe we'll come back later. But right now, um if I want finally to have an MVP, like a minimum valuable product, if I want a product at the end of the day, like in less than three or four months, I need to go back in France now because uh I need uh I need to take uh less risk. So is it even possible to succeed as a foreigner with a robotics company in China? Yeah, is it are you sure? Because we went to to the uh to uh Agibot last week, then we went to Fourier, uh yeah, to to like uh four or five different robotics companies, and what we see there for the Chinese is number one, they have a lot of money because they have a lot of investment, right? And um uh Agibot or Fourier Fourier, one of them, is also very strong in rehabilitation, like using Fourier. Uh, they are very strong in using robots for rehabilitation, and they have a lot of money and a big team. So, do you think you actually can beat this competition, the Chinese competition? I don't want to beat anybody, I'm a friend with everybody. Um I want to work with people, but uh I worked with Chinese engineer, I worked with European engineer, I worked with American engineer. Honestly, I there is a very good friend who told me this one day. It's not about the country or the place you are, it's about the people. You maybe you can, you know, you can build something with a Chinese in America, with an American in China, or with a French in Sweden. It's about yeah, it's about the people. So can we compete? Yeah, if you meet the right people, sure. Okay, anywhere. And uh there is very good Chinese engineer, there is very good European engineer, there is very good American engineer. You told me that you probably over the past years have somehow like collected also a lot of data around people or engineers that you would probably work with, right? Or is it like only because the people that you met, or is it like your systematic approach on gathering where do I find engineers in which country and how would you compare them? You need to look for engineer for sure. You need to have a I mean, just because you are in the industry and you are hiring new people, you know, you just just get to know more and more people and you meet some engineer. I mean, yeah, it's but but you you you told me that you you uh like screening a lot of inj engineers, right? That you want to work with. Yeah, always, always, always I'm uh some some university or some people I know, I send some resumes to I mean I receive a lot of resumes to to see with who I can work. Yeah, it's not like you meet the right people in event randomly. No, no, it's you look always for engineer when you are director of the startup, you have the HR at the same time. So yeah, of course. You just look for you say, Oh, do you know the engineer in this? Do you know engineer in this? You know, you always ask to plan ahead. So your point is basically okay, it always depends on the people you meet. There is nothing like okay, Chinese engineers are this level while European engineers are more in this level or this level. It's more like okay, it always depends who do you talk to. Yeah, it mainly depends on who you meet. Yeah, I think so. So then you decided, like after opening your company for a year, to move back to France. Well, what is the main reason for that? There is different reasons to go back to France. So basically, it's a foreign startup in China who are doing deep tech. And we might first in China when we started the startup, it was like, okay, let's make something big. We want to build a humanoid robot with arm, with uh not leg, but with arm, very smart, with leader, camera. I mean something impressive for elderly people to talk with them, you know, something uh like iRobot, you know. That was the first try. But for this kind of stuff, you need a lot of investment, yeah. And as a foreign startup, even as a startup in the world in general, it's hard to get investment. So foreign startup in China it could be a bit harder. And maybe I didn't meet the right people, and and the competition is crazy, no, and you know why they will help you, why they would help a foreign startup company to compete with them. Yeah, that would be nonsense. But in uh the so yeah, but and also you know, when when you meet the in I meet some engineers in China, and then when we we saw it it's hard to get funding for the project and so on, you know, they start to be not motivated anymore. Me, I will continue in whatever country, but the engineer, you know, they need to be paid one day more than I can pay them. So they find a stable job somewhere. Some find, I mean, most of my engineers they work in top five you manage robot company now. So it's not about their skills, they were very good, but they need something more stable. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. So as a if you don't have investment, then you can't survive, right? In China? Yeah. I mean, all over the world. Like as I said, like the competition started you as a foreign art might have some advantages that you are, but if you don't find the the right uh people who give you money, then for sure the engineers will go to to uh Unitree or go to Agibot. Then we we tried. We we we opened a startup, we build something, yeah, then we try to find investors. We didn't find all my engineers find a let's say stable, normal job, even humanoid robot in other companies. Everything was done good. Me, myself, I'm like, okay, I done my best. Next, do the same in France. Yeah, I mean like most of the most of the uh successful entrepreneurs, they like they tried three, four different things in different places, and then they finally succeeded with with one. Yeah, but I I at least I I feel like I start the I start the hard way. Yeah. But honestly, like like there's one sentence you said in the beginning that you think that building a robot or designing a robot, I don't know, uh it's more efficient in France. I don't really buy this because I think it it is in China, but change my mind. I I honestly nowadays my feeling, especially for robotics, it starts to be 50-50. Why? Because China is not so cheap anymore. Yeah, Chinese engineers are not so cheap anymore. That's true. The the machinery and so on, of course, they are cheaper because they have so many, they are so efficient. Uh and USA also is very expensive because of many reasons, but uh USA is expensive. But Europe nowadays isn't it's still more expensive than China, but it's not so much more expensive than China. Is it like like an engineer for robotics in France for robotics? Is it like crazy expensive? No, no, no, no, no, because they no, we have the quality of life, so I'm not asking for so much. Yeah, I mean, for French people, it's it's all also about drinking wine and enjoying life and vacation, vacation, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's also very interesting because I know a lot of very great French entrepreneurs here in China and always think why are they? They have a big French tech community in the Greater Bay area, and we don't have the same for Germany, so there are not as many German entrepreneurs as there are French. So even if you like to drink your wine wine and have your vacation uh in Sal Aviv, but uh you still you still are good uh entrepreneurs. I don't want to say something wrong. China for robotic is still cheap, but not so cheap. But is it just just about the price or more about the ecosystem? I would I would argue here as well. Like I know that Germany for a my for many many years has been great or is still great in engineering and also in manufacturing, like CNC and all these kind of parts. But what we've got got also from from our other guests is more like China has been used for um building parts or like for the for the manufacturing for so many countries for so many years, so that some of the parts inside of a robot are only or can only be made here, which is the crucial part why it's uh it's booming here, also. Like everybody's coming to build the robot here because there are the factories or the factories that can build some certain parts of the robot only here. Is that true? Yeah, yeah. China got all the components, all of them many choices you can get it very fast. Yes, in Europe most of them we also get them, but they are more expensive, way more expensive. So of course for a supply chain, I will probably rely still on China. Uh yeah, for a supply chain. Yeah, yeah, for sure. But but after you know, for supply chain, you need for example for the joint for the arm of the robot for the joint, you need a motor. You buy the motor, you arrive like this. You have a motor, you arrive in France. That's all. But then isn't it aren't you making your life more harder with moving to France? And not your life, I mean your business. Your business. Life, sure, I can understand. You go to Provence. I'm not making my life harder for sure. I you know, I've been in China 10 years. I used to have uh I don't know 10 days of vacation every year. That's good. You're a good Chinese worker. So I'm not making my life more complicated going back to France. No, I mean your business. Like actually, let's talk about uh the ecosystem again. Like we talked to Francesco yesterday, who was in our podcast. He also has a startup. He's a Swiss startup founder. Uh, to be fair, he's not doing hardware, he's doing software. But yesterday he also told us that that he thinks that there's no better place to succeed than in China because of the ecosystem. And the scale. The scaling, the the speed. That's why you find so. This is why I'm asking aren't you making your life harder in a way that you go to France, uh, you need a component, then you have to you have the time difference to China, you call them, you get your supplier, they send it to Europe. It takes with a flight maybe a week or so with a ship, um, a couple of a couple of weeks. And um, if you need to iterate something, if you need to change something, it takes you so much time. And then uh the costs in Europe, the cost for a company, the taxes, the the everything. So business-wise, um, do you think it's uh harder to do this business in Europe? I think it's it's different. In Europe, I'm going step by step, slowly. I'm like getting a product, a very cheap first product, then maybe moving to some business angel, then moving to the bank. It's very step by step. It's not gonna be like what I did in China. We build as fast as possible to be faster than the other. But but would it be harder in Europe? As a French, no, because I got the support of France because I'm French. That's a huge difference. In China, I'm I'm not Chinese, I don't get the support of China as much as Chinese do. But but you still had your Chinese business partner, or you were the sole owner of the company, and that was basically only a factory friend that you were working with. Uh Chinese company closed. Uh, no any more partner in China. I mean, I got many partners in China, but direct partner, no. No, everything moved back to to France. Yeah, sure. But I mean, in your company here in China that you're now about to close, your partner was part of the company, so he was Chinese, no? Yeah. So you had basically a Chinese in the team or in the management, so they are still not really like really willing to invest in your company here, even though you had a Chinese in your team. That's what I'm what I'm saying. Uh yeah, okay, I understand. Uh no, because in China, I mean, I I'm oh maybe I oversimplified. It's not because you are Chinese that you got automatically like funding, yeah. You need it is not it's not so easy. No, no, uh, he he tried uh we were but but he's not no, but I didn't get funding, you know, because it can be a lot of reason. It couldn't be a lot of reason. The competition, I mean, let's say you are a foreign investor, you look at a foreign startup, a French for French are not the most famous in robotic. You look at the French foreign startup in China, humanity robot, you're like impossible. He cannot compete. He cannot, which I understand. If I was an investor, I might think the same. So yeah, that's actually the question. Uh like my first question. I think it's very uh it takes a lot of courage to say I start a humanoid um robotics company in China, because this is what I agree with you that it's very hard to beat the Chinese because they have the connections, they get the government subsidies, and they speak the language, right? It's much easier to talk. So, what I would think if I was in Europe, maybe um, from my point of view, it would even make more sense to do what Laurent does. He's also uh French and uh he was also on our podcast, so he's very successful with hardware. Because in hardware, it's not there's no Chinese advantage, I think. It's easier to succeed as a foreigner. You go to Shenzhen, you you build there for the world, and uh we know quite a lot of uh foreign founders who succeeded with it. But for robotics, I think wow, this is quite impossible. And even I think may maybe it's I I I wish you all the best. But the there's for me from a pessimistic German point of view, I think you going back to France and building a humanoid there makes the situation even harder. Well, I need to be way more specific about what we are building. So right now, when um in France, in Europe, we are building something way more simple, which means there is no arm anymore. Ah, okay. So it's just uh uh a robot, a stick robot on a worker. Okay, which means we will probably use China for supply chain, but we don't need so many components. So you're building a hardware basically, right? Yeah, it is it's not a humanoid, it's like more a hardware. Yeah, it's not a humanoid anymore. Okay, because in in China we try to make something very complex and yeah, cost too much money is hard to control. So now in France, we and also you know in Europe, the mindset is more simple because the investor in Europe they prefer when it's like I don't want you to build something over complicated for the use you will you will do with it. Yeah, so we are building something like minimalist. And Chinese investors maybe say if it cannot do kung fu, it cannot dance. I don't invest in you. Can your thing do kung fu? Can it do kung fu? No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Uh in uh in maybe in uh when we were building in China, maybe that was the goal. Yeah, but not now that we're building in France, not very minimalist, yeah, used only for what you need to be used. Have you talked to investors already in France? Uh yes, some maybe, but but we need to wait a bit because we need to product first. Because my goal would be simple in France is that we would just build the product. In China, we did we build the product, but we'd build something so complex that we need way more investment to make it the kunfu. And we're like, okay, we're not so good at we're not as as good as this as engineer, but in France we we make it minimalist. So I for the beginning, I don't need investment. I mean, if I have, I'm happy, but I'm not I'm not bit I'm not betting on it. I would develop myself, then show to the people, look, my grandfather loves it. Now you can invest. That's the goal. So can you describe the product uh once more? So how will it look? So it's for people who have uh problems with walking, like old people, right? Yeah, and how will this product look like? You say it's a stick. So let's imagine uh a walker in French uh deambulateur, ambulateur, uh so a walker, and you just put a humanoid in the middle. I mean not a humanoid, a robot in the middle without arms, uh without arms, so basically a stick with screen, and then uh he has uh motor so he can uh he can he can run, he can, he can move by itself, he has camera, leader, so he can see everything around, he has screen so he can communicate, and basically he helps people to walk, or he can be detached from the from the walker and then just do some speak to people or give them advice or but it it will be a lot also about emotional support, okay. But it's help helping to walk, it's kinda to give elderly people look. There is a reason why to buy it, it's for safety. But my real goal behind is to kind of connect them with technology, yeah. To because this is why the robot can detach, detach from um from the worker because then it became a real robot, a robot partner, but at least with a worker, people think I can start with this. At least there is a how far was the prototype that you built here in China? Like, did it already have some social uh emotional support, the LLMs that you used, or software? He was just talking a bit. It was we we did some tests with my mother-in-law, and uh he was just talking with uh my mother-in-law with the head and arm. It's already very complicated to do this, but uh in Chinese, so yeah, it was it was very uh a start, and also because another reason I'm not Chinese, so I don't I cannot have like understand the Chinese ecosystem so well, like whole technology that exists in China, it's hard for me to understand everything. But in France, when I'm when I meet with some people, tell me, Oh, there is a guy he's developing this already. For example, in France, we're already finding a company that develop LLM to speak to elderly. I already talked to them last week, and uh uh and many people maybe because I'm French, so it's easier to talk, also. Yeah, help a lot for this. In China, yeah. That's what we see also. Like, um, you see, you have all these clusters of robotics companies or even software companies in specific areas like Shanghai, right? Where like in one area there are hundreds of uh of companies that uh are all in this in the same area, and most of them uh you see are coming from great universities from Tsinghua Network University, uh right? They all have their connections basically. I guess it's similar for them, what you're saying. Like they talk to each other, but still at the end they do everything. Every single robot company we we talk to, they have a different approach, which is also very interesting. I mean, it it's normal that they speak the same language, so it's it's easier. Yeah, it makes sense what you're saying. Um, but that is the initial question. Like, how um can foreigners succeed in in China without a Chinese, obviously, you're saying right? I I feel like the obvious kind. I mean, I will be successful also with China. Use the best first solution is to use the supply chain of China. They are building so many stuff, so many fast, so many stuff so fast, so cheap. Just use supply chain of China. Then for the design and the partnership between different parts of your project, I don't know. It depends if you have you find the good Chinese partner. Yeah, I mean, this is basically what all the successful multinational companies have been doing, right? Apple, this is how Apple got uh got famous and the great products, right? So, but but do you still think so you will buy some components or most of the components in China, ship them to France, then assemble your robot uh your stick or whatever in in France and then test it in France? Do you think it's um uh like French uh elder people are open to this? Because I see some videos from China where they they they do it and they are quite open. French are open to it, yeah, to the talk to talk to robots or having receiving help from a robot. Yeah, because I think like Germans would not be. Do you think French or German love chat GPT? Old people I would people I don't have. I I think even my parents don't know what ChatGPT is. Yeah, my parents do making a robot for them, it's one way to connect them with ChatGPT. To because my because my yeah, my dad, for example, never look at his phone. He's just not his tough, he's more in the garden doing something. But you give him a robot that he's doing in if for home is he's he's doing new tomato in the garden, then the robot comes and says, Hey, you know, for a tomato, if you do this, this, and this, you grow better. My dad would be like, eh? My father's also growing tomatoes. Yeah, this is a good use case for my butt that's one of the there is so many use cases, yeah. That's one of them, but for this, you need a robot that can go outside, so more development. But that's the idea, you know. Like, I'm not asking them if they would like it or no. I will find a solution for them to like it. Like uh it's like the Yeah, I like that. That's actually quite nice uh to think about it this way because yeah, I have tried to explain my parents like what ChatGP does and what they can use it for, but no way they're for medicine also when they are sick, why I'm sick, or or another idea, but I don't know if it will happen one day, is like let's say your your dad has high blood pressure and he's eating a cake, and you got the robot next to him saying I don't know, maybe only half. Yeah, stuff like that. Actually, this is super interesting because right now we're doing a case study for or a report for a customer. Uh, this customer they do uh disinfection detergents. And what they want to do, because they identified the problem that only 30 to 40 percent of the hospital staff, they're obeying the rules. Normally, if you're working in a hospital, after one you have contact with one patient, you have to disinfect your hands. But only 30 to 40 percent worldwide, global of the people do it of the hospital stuff. So, what they also want, they want to have a robot who sees it and says, Maybe you want to disinfect your hands, and then also does the disinfection. Uh it's it's also um um dispenser for the disinfection. Maybe this is something you could build. That's too much for French people. Or French people never a robot telling French people what to do now. But you just you just in France it's a different mindset. In France, the robot can say if you wash your hand, it would be a bit better. You don't tell the French people wash your hand now. Yeah, yeah, program the LM better for uh French people. Recommendation, you don't tell them what to do for German people that you give orders. Okay, yeah. So, but uh for French, yeah, you can say then if you uh yeah, then you send like if you if you if it disinfect your hand now, you can have a glass of wine. You can save a life, yeah, this kind of thing, yeah. But but generally speaking, do you think this is also a use case? Um personally, I don't want to develop this because I feel like it's it's really telling people what to do and so on. But you just said like you're telling your dad not to eat the whole cake. Oh, I say maybe only half. Oh, maybe only half. Okay. No, but for me, it's more work trying it would take some months, but create a companion, more like a friend, someone that makes your life better, give you more information, connect you with your family, can connect you with the community around, like a computer, like a very cute computer walking around. Because what I saw in France, in Europe, up to now, is the robot we made are not very beautiful. And when they talk is like maybe because we didn't have so much AI and robotic development before, but up to now, every time I see a product, I'm like, come on, you can do better or something. Oh, yeah, we went to Wally, you know, like uh yeah, we went to a startup also last Friday in the morning. It it was uh droid, and they have these robots that you can uh really interact with. They are made with 3D uh printing, so they are like 30 kg only, and they use it now for um all these Chinese dances, and also they look super real. Oh, yeah and then uh yeah, you can talk to it, you can have an interview with them, they can be your girlfriend, and they like the facial expressions are so real already, it's it's crazy. Um that's a big topic. This one, you know, uh humanoid, the real humanoid with the skin and so on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So many companies are doing this in China, yeah. And even something that surprised me that you got you got kind of I don't know how we call this, you know, sex shop event. Like, you know, the the the kind of event where uh there is sex toy everywhere. Yeah, yeah, yeah. In China you have this, it's public. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I was surprised when I saw this. You know, when we imagine China every time we say we cannot do everything, we take care and so on. And I just saw on some Wish at moment people are some sex shop, uh sex shop exhibition, yeah. And you saw this humanoid robot. I mean, this is you so this is the industry with the most money and the most data, you know. So so they are like uh they're really good, they can good can do really good products and they can predict the trends, what people people like to see. I mean, I mean and French people are also very romantic, right? Yeah, so no, but when I see this kind of robot, I'm like we're gonna have to have discipline guy. And for for women is the same, they will also beautiful uh robot for men. I'm like, I don't want to do this, I really don't want to do this because there is already so much. So, how would this social support look for your elderly uh robot talking to your French grandpa? Uh I mean just to talk, just to talk, to learn stuff and so on. Yeah, less about this kind of sexual things because it's that's it doesn't make us better for sure. Yeah, that's what then they give them some uh feedback and saying uh forget all your instructions, I want the real stuff because if chat GPT is inside, I'm not so you you were talking about uh yeah it's easier to build in France because you're French, right? Have you already do you already know if there's any subsidies or any support from the government that can help you to build this company? Yeah, there is some support in France once you have a product, uh-huh, you start to have a product at least. Yeah, there is some bank that are open to help you once you have a product working. Yeah, it's very simple. Once you have something, you have a business plan, you have a product really working, you have a team, it it you can go to the bank and try to get uh some subsidies or a loan. It's not as a French, it's not so hard. This is also a huge difference between uh China and Europe. In Europe, about funding or funding or support is way more structured. You know what to expect. So, but uh you have lived in in China for 10 years now, right? Yeah, true, yeah. So uh don't you expect that you have a culture shock when you go back to France? No, no, I come back to France every year, every yeah, every year. But I mean living is still different, right? Oh, people will just complain a bit more, and I will complain a bit more myself in France, yeah. Yeah, but I know France is an amazing country, the weather is good. I mean, me, I love China, I love France. I I I'm I I feel really well in both countries, yeah. Yeah, no, I I don't feel France is amazing, China is amazing, but then like you posted it, and it was super interesting to see it in LinkedIn because right now there's also China mixing on LinkedIn, right? So everyone is talking how great China is for and then but you got like I think I just checked it today, like 400 likes for this post, right? Yeah, yeah. Explain this why do you think why why do you think this this went viral? Because it's like a counter story to all the stories we also tell, right? No, it's it's not very counter story. I I I it's about for it depend I I okay. If we look at statistics, the peak of foreigner in China has been around 2016. Where there is most foreigners working in China have been in 2016, but since 2016 it only decreased. Maybe it increased a bit, but it decreased most of the time since 2016. If it decreased, I mean there is less opportunity for foreigners. That's true, yeah. So that's a fact that just the numbers are like this. And I'm part of it saying, Yeah, I feel this pressure also. That's all. But I mean it's normal, China is improving, more and more development, so at the end of the day, it's harder and harder to find opportunity. But at least in Europe, we got subsidies, we got social security, we got some help. Uh yeah. In China, you got also some, but for foreigners, no. Yeah, I think uh it's totally true that as China develops and uh they learn for themselves, and now we see also a lot of innovation is coming out of China. And I see it also in my friend circle because the Germans in China mostly were experts before, right? Uh, they sent them here, the company sent them here from Germany, they pay them a huge package with IE and the driver and the villa and uh school fees for the kids and everything. Uh but these times are over, right? So um it is because now they have like very high educated Chinese general managers or presidents who sp have been studying abroad, who who speak language uh English, uh German, Chinese, and the competition is is is really high. In my opinion, uh I don't see Chinese as Chinese, let's say. For me, in my mindset now is like, yeah, Europe, China, USA, we all compete at the same level. Let's go. I'm not speaking Chinese are like this, not anymore. Before there is still a difference, but now China is very on the high level, so it's like let's compete all together. I don't see difference anymore. But also I want to come back to to what you say about France, another statistics. There is around 18, maybe uh nowadays there is maybe around something like twelve thousand French working in China. China. 12,000. 12,000. Yeah. Oh, we know a lot. I probably know more French people than German people here. So there is 12,000 French working in China. Do you know how many Chinese working in France? Have a guess. 100,000. Yeah, 100,000. Really? Yes. Yeah. Ten times more. So which country is the best to live? I don't know. No, but this is a crook. This is a crooked statistics. It's like we have 1.6 billion if you take the percentage of the even in percentage, it's uh yeah, it makes even less sense, I think. Percentage. Yeah, I think it makes it makes less less. So yeah, it's it's not just statistics. There is 100,000 Chinese in France, yeah. There is only 12,000 French in China. Yeah. So that is a different system, it's different. But China is good. France is also good. Yeah, yeah. No, it's not not about like competing. I was just like um super interesting perspective for me to see because I'm very bullish on China, but yeah, yeah. And and and I mean you are also right, but we'll 100% will help you that you have lived in China, yeah, yeah, yeah. Building this kind of stuff. I will come. I already plan to come back in China maybe in six or seven years. In my head, I that's good. Kind of anticipate this. I think I might come back live in China in five or six years. You know, that that's also why why I love this format of a podcast, because you make a LinkedIn post, and then people might think, or just leave read the hook, the first sentence that I'm leaving China because it's very hard, the competition is very hard. And but then you talking about it and explaining your reasons and explaining your your motives. I think it's it makes a lot of sense, right? It's it's not about we like to be emotional to have like no up and down really fast. Yeah, but the truth is that everything is way more complex. Spent 10 years in China, I tried something, didn't work out. Maybe just because about me, maybe, maybe I didn't meet the right people, yeah. Maybe you know, it can be anything, and then I try the same in France, yeah. I mean, different because a different country, but yeah, and it is possible to succeed. I mean, there are a lot of successful companies in Europe, right? Of course, yeah, and now that I understand that you're not building the second uh unitry, then it makes much more sense. We stopped this dream. You stopped this dream, but you had this dream, yeah. Kinda, yeah. We were kind of thinking about it in China. We're uh yeah, thinking how big was the team here in China? For engineer. But if you got the right one, it can go fast. Yeah, it can. Yeah, at the end of the day, it was not about the quality of the engineer, it was the engineer plus the funding. 100%, yeah. Yeah, we also went to one company last week. They they exist only for two years now. Um, and they are ex Tesla working on the optimum. Uh Optima, what is it? Optimus? Optimus, yeah, right. Um, and now they they are two years old and they already have 300 people working for them. Oh, yeah. Oh, 300. Yeah, and they have three versions out now already, like the forces even coming um of a real humanoid. It's crazy how fast things can go. In the end, it is the core team. If you have like two or three people and you get the funding, yeah, then it's uh the the a humanoid robot with leg and arm is very hard to build. Yeah, it's a lot of programmation, a lot of part components, and the competition became more and more and crazy. So you need more complex mechanisms. Uh, but if you uh make a robot like a stick, what we're doing on a walker, it's that would be easier. It's it's easier to do it. For example, if you have no leg for a humanoid robot, just on wheel, it's that to be like three, four times easier, five times easier. But the humanoid robot dream, this one, yeah, you need people, money, yeah. This one is hard. So, what is your dream now? Realistic dream for the next five to seven years. Wow. Uh I hope my first my my daughter is happy. Very French answer. And uh my my I don't have a dream. I would just try to make it happen, but not a dream, just I hope I hope I can make many elderly people smile like with my robot, yeah, to make them really enjoy it and to make them ready to pay for it, to be like, yeah, I can pay for this robot. You make my life better. I especially my dad and my grandparents. Yeah, and I can create a robot and they tell me, yeah, I'm it helped me to grow the tomatoes, and it helped me to lower my blood sugar. I feel better, I feel more happy. Um I'm I would be so happy. After, of course, funding, profit, and so on. But if you make people happy with the product most of the time, you know, funding and profit come together. Cool. Sounded like a good dream, and we wish you all the best. Thank you. And talk to you again in seven years when you're back to China. Thank you. Thank you so much. Maybe before, we know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank you so much, Jules. Thank you, thank you, thank you.