7. The sensory homunculus and mastering feedback

Let's dive into this week's episode. We sit down and revisit the sensory homunculus before diving deep into feedback. How to take on feedback, how to get better feedback, how to give feedback and how to apply feedback. 

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LinkedIn: Remote Control Exercise Physiology

Connect with Courtenay:

IG: @hereducation_ and @herexercisephysiology

LinkedIn: Courtenay Polock

Connect with Nicola:

IG: @theactive.nic, @theactive.eduprogram and @theactivestudio

LinkedIn: Nicola Begley

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www.remotecontrolep.com.au

www.hereducation.com.au

www.theactiveedu.com.au

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to Remote Control EP, the podcast. I'm Nicola. And I'm Courtney, and we are here to have the real, the raw conversations about clinical practice, business, and what it means to actually be an EP. Because it's time that we took control of that conversation. Yes. We would love for you to like, subscribe, share it with your whole EP network. We want to reach as many people as we can, and we appreciate your support. Yeah, it doesn't matter. If you're a business owner, clinician, student, new grab, researcher, any EP. We love everyone. So welcome and share it. We're going to kick off this week with our physiology fact of the week. And Core, what have you got for us? Oh, this week I was thinking back to the sensory homunculus. And the reason why I was thinking back to this was because I was actually watching some PD on this and it was run by a physio, and she was talking about um like pain pathways and mentioned the homunculus. And I was like, oh my god, homunculus, where do I know that name from? Like I'm like, I know this word, but yeah, I was like, what's a homunculus? Yeah. I was like, I actually she actually said, you know the guy that's got like the big hands like that and the big mouth, and it's like, oh the huge lips. Yeah, the huge lips guy, like the Botox man. Yeah. And I was like, oh my god, the sensory homunculus. Yes, I actually do remember that. Like I knew what it was, and I I like you know those things that you did ages ago, you know, you know that it like you know about it, but you don't really know about it because I learned this in first year uni, but I've never used it in clinical practice. Yeah, but at first year uni, it also didn't really make any sense because you didn't understand like sensory feedback and what things meant. And you just were like, why is there a giant dude with giant blown-up lips on my screen? And massive hands. Massive hands, yeah. Anyway, so I was like, oh, the sensory homoculus. Anyway, in relation to pelvic pain, it was really interesting because the pelvic organs, like when I do a lot of endo, and the pelvic organs actually don't have a like a representation, like a very big representation of sensory like pain feedback, um, in like when you look at the homunculus in terms of like where it's represented on the cortex of the brain. Yeah. And so there this is quite a big part of the reason why referral pain is such a problem, or they can't quite pinpoint where pain actually is, because it just sort of sends it to anywhere in the brain, like in that in the sensory like cortex part, like in that sensory homunculus is, and kind of just goes, Well, that's kind of close by, I'll just send it to that. So, like from pelvic pain perspective, where they've got such heightened pain and they can sense it so much, and it's mostly organ-based pain referred out, was also like one of the reasons, like why I was looking into all of this. Yeah, and I was just like, Oh my god, the sensory homunculus. Now I understand why. How could I forget? Yeah, and then I was like, oh my gosh, this is like something I feel like other, well, I'm hoping other people are like, oh yeah, and I assume now that we're talking about this, probably need to read, but like I assume the other places that are low representation on there. Yeah, the same principle applies. Like it probably doesn't just apply to pelvic health, right? In theory, yeah, in theory, I guess so. Yeah, yeah. But then that um I think over time it really maps too, right? Like how much sensory information that area is getting from that from the pelvis then becomes bigger and bigger and bigger because it's like the pain pathway is now, like, and maybe we need to report back on like what that means health conditions. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm still reading up a little bit more about that really nitty-gritty physiology stuff. Like, this is something I've like becoming a little bit more passionate about. We've talked and talked a lot about describing what an EP is and falling into the physiology side a lot more. And I'm like, this is the stuff I want to dive more into, like really understanding all of that at a very, very, very deep level. And to be honest with you, in uni, I was like, I don't even know about that guy. Oh, but yeah, you don't see how it applies, but uh yeah, now I do so I'm readizing the call. Or maybe more about that guy to come. Yeah, so uh physiology effect of the week. Amazing. I love it. Yeah, I love it. I kind of love to do. Thank you. Well, today we're talking about more than just the sensory homunculus. Oh demo. We are talking feedback and giving feedback, receiving it, learning from it, feedback from being a clinician to being a business owner and and why it's so important in every aspect of of what we do. Um so yeah, Court, tell us like what what what do you think feedback is? It's a great question. What is feedback? But I think it's like any piece of information that you're getting from someone that's in regard to an experience that I'm having, yeah, potentially. Like I think about feedback from a business perspective, like how is this feeling for people? Like it is it a good experience, is it a bad experience? Is it like a neutral experience? But things could be done a little bit better for that person. But feedback would also be something that's like, hey, I like what how am I going in my squat? Like, yeah, what does this exercise look like? Yeah, what does this look like? Like, how do we improve that? That's feedback. Like, yeah, like I guess it's just I mean, it can be so many different forms, like yeah, visual, tactile, like the feeling of it. It can yeah, like body language. You can see feedback from people just in their body language with how they're yeah, a response to something. Is that maybe yeah, like I'm trying to think of like a short term of like, I don't know, I don't know what my answer would be. That's why I threw it over to you. Yeah, I was hoping you would just say it. Anyway, I personally used to have such a hard time with feedback, and this is why I think I want to talk about it from my perspective. And this is one of the reasons why this has come up, I guess, is because I never wanted to ask for feedback because I was so scared that someone was going to be like, you're shit, like you're not a good embed like I don't like this, or like really quite negative. And I would I would take it on so personally of like a reflection of me as a person, which is definitely not the case at all. And as I've grown to learn more about business services, feedback, it's like you shouldn't really visualize that at all, like think about it like that. But I I had such a hard time with it. I see this so much, like in my staff members. It's like the people that it's hardest to give feedback to are the ones that want to really improve, they want to be the best because they take it so personally and almost like in its attack on them. And something that I really, really try and get my clinicians to do is having an identity outside of being an EP and being a clinician. And so it's about having who is Courtney as a person and all the things and attributes that make you you, that's not your job title. That's not what you do for work. So that when you take feedback on, or when someone gives you a piece of feedback, like, hey, like I think we can improve on this a little bit, or maybe we can work on this, or I'm seeing this happen, it's not it's not affecting who you are on a person as a person. Yeah, this is making you as a clinician better. It doesn't make you any less of a human. Yeah, I I can fully appreciate that because I think that's probably where I was at. Like that's always been an issue for me too. Yeah. Being like pouring so much energy into my work and into who I am, and that's like a pretty big part of success identity for me. And I think that was probably where I was at too was like, oh, I'm like, I just don't have anything outside of my work, that's me. And that's why I felt like and your identity was like, I'm an exercise physiologist. Yeah, that's who I am and what I do, and that's every part of my being. So when someone says, not that they're saying you're not very good at it, but it's you can improve in this way, I can see how that would be really challenging to deal with. Yeah, yeah, 100%. So if you're if you if you don't have an identity outside of AP, it's time to get one. Yeah, like it's something I I try and get every single staff member that I have, and and even students when I start to pick up on those little things when I have students, it's like, hey, do this now. You'll be 10 times a better clinician in the future, but it's a process, like it's not something that you can just be like, okay, this is who I am. I'm really good at taking on feedback now. Like it's it's a skill like anything else. I actually think for me, it was sort of like I I've definitely gotten better at it, but I have to really, I had to really change how I viewed feedback. And I think I was, I think I might have been reading some one of some self-development book. I've got so many of them that I like, I can't even remember which one it was. But it was um I identifying that that was a really big problem for me was not able to take on feedback. I think I would have even struggled with this with like someone giving me feedback as a friend.

unknown 9:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:10

Like, hey, I don't like the way you do this, like as a teenager, yeah, and felt like really attacked like to it about it. So I think I was reading up on this, and it was something that popped up was more like this isn't actually an opportunity for you to change, like grow and change, and you don't actually know about this unless someone tells you. So for someone who's really into like the self-development and being a little bit better at things and growing into something, and maybe like I also think I was a bit of a perfectionist, which is maybe why I didn't want to say you wasn't a perfectionist, like I was always into being better, but yeah, didn't really see the correlation to that. But it was okay, I have to look at every opportunity for feedback is the chance for me to go, okay, that's great feedback. Thanks for sharing. I can change this now and be better at whatever it is, or improve something, or make someone feel more comfortable, or like it just it has a, I guess it depends on what the feedback is about, right? We're not always going to be, it's not always about being better. Yeah, it is, it is, but it's not like you don't have to be better at something because you're not good at it. It's just like how it could be improved. But even like, hey, I didn't understand the way you explained that exercise to me. Yes, like okay, I need to say that differently. I need to get I need to communicate that differently, yeah, in a different way. So it might just be different ways rather than being better at something. Yeah. So that was like a huge light bulb moment for me. Like, if I actually uh get take feedback on better and ask for feedback better, or even start asking, because at this point I think I'll say don't ask in case someone like attacks you, um, then I can improve my service. Yeah. And I think that like seeking feedback is something that people don't do. One, because you're scared of that, but two, they don't necessarily think to do it. I'll often get students and they deliver someone's exercise program for the first time, and I'll get them to have a bit of a reflection on how they thought it went, and then I'll be like, okay, how did the client find the session? And they often look at me blankly, like, oh my god, I don't know how do I answer this. And I'm like, did you ask them? Did you ask them if they enjoyed the session? Did you ask them if the intensity was similar to what they usually have? Did you ask them if they liked the exercises or how they felt? Like it's not difficult to do, but you have to actually think to do it and and seek that feedback regularly in order to be able to take it on. Yeah. People don't just openly give it to you often. Some people do. And those are the ones that are probably making you feel attacked. That's often any. I often give feedback without being asked for it, but uh um, I think also where you do it poorly. Like I feel like a lot of people are like, oh, tell me if this is like if you've got any feedback, tell me. Like that's not a very nice way to seek feedback for people. It's not very like, I do really want to receive feedback. Yeah, I think it has to feel quite purposeful for the person that and it's it's like when you go to a yoga class and they're like, if you have any feedback, well done today, everybody. If you have any feedback, come chat to me. It's not a really welcoming no, you're like, oh no, who goes up to the instructor at the end and give some feedback? Oh, and also like it's too broad. Yeah, that is such a broad question. Give me feedback on what? Like, I could give you feedback on a million things. Yeah, how is the space? How is my booking? How do you feel to be sitting next to someone that was a bit too close to you? Is there too many people in the class? Like there's so many things. Yeah, like do I like music? Is my voice too loud? Yeah, you how give me feedback? Like, unless I sometimes feel like we this is um, I want to say probably a little bit more about asking the right questions to the person to get the right feedback. Yeah. So I actually read something once that was like, if you're not getting good answers from people, it's because your question is actually not good enough. You're not asking the right question. So, like when you say, Do you have any feedback about this? That's like such a crap way. You don't ask it like that. Hey, Nicola, if you did this and it was more suitable for you and it suited you better, what would that look like? Yeah, that's a great way of getting feedback that's like personalized to the person that makes them feel like, oh, if this was for me, I would prefer it this way. Yeah, that's a great way of feedback. It's like targeting, you're getting really good response from that, you're asking a better question. She's not gonna say, like, you're you wouldn't have come up and said, hey, just if this was better for me, yeah, like I would really like this. Yes, unless you're like a really, you know, unless you unless you mean yeah, exactly right. And I was being very artist, scrub that example. Um, I was thinking it's like when you ask someone, they go on a holiday and you're like, How is your holiday? Who says shit? Like they're all like, it's a holiday was great, and the crap holiday was forget that, but like they're just like, Oh, holiday was great, and you find out no information about it. But if I'm like, how was Fred's? Where did you go? Tell me about they give you so much more information, right? Yeah, and you have to do the same thing with feedback. You can't just openly be like, yep, if you've got any, give it to me, I'm open. Like that doesn't show that you're actually open. And people don't really know what they don't like until you ask the question about it. Yeah, like I wouldn't say, unless the lights in a yoga room were obviously too bright, I wouldn't go, Oh, can you I think your lights are a bit bright? Like if someone said, How do you feel about the lighting? Yeah, I would be like, Oh, actually, it was probably a little bit bright. Yeah, like it makes you think it makes you think about what you actually felt in the in it. So you have to be a little bit more strategic and specific, yeah, and specific about the feedback of that you and what what are you trying to actually improve, right? Right, yeah, yeah. You need like there's a what are you trying to find out by this? What do you actually want to know? Yeah, and like when do you even ask the feedback, right? Yeah. So I think another good example about this is I think this is something that comes up a lot in mentoring, is patients that maybe just like disappear into wherever they've disappeared to accept the abyss of what I was looking for. I was like, fog they've just disappeared. Um, and you're not really quite sure why. But obviously there's a reason. And sometimes I sometimes I personally go, oh, I mustn't have been getting them results. Like maybe that's why they're not doing this anymore. But since thinking about that, I've always thought, okay, I need to ask the person, do you feel like we're on track? Because my goal for the person is probably quite different from theirs, and you can kind of get a little bit off tangent, I think. Sometimes especially with exercise. Yeah. We have all these goals that we're like, oh, this would be really good for them, and oh, they should really do this. But like, do they actually care about that? Yeah, yeah, right? Yeah. Exactly. So easy. So if you were to like, and then sometimes their goal also changes along the way as they see things open up and their horizons are like, oh, I could actually, maybe I can run. Like they don't want to run. So if you're like in sessions with people, I think I ask it at the end of every session. One, have I explained things well to you? Have I explained this to you in a way that helps you understand it more? Yes or no, well, or more if you want to answer that question more. But do you also feel like we're on the right track to the goals that you're after? Because if you are not, we can definitely change that. We can do anything you want. Yeah. I just need to know, and I can change the programming. Yeah, right. Yeah. And if you don't know, you can't change it. Yeah. But all of a sudden, you're not really on the track to their goals. So they don't really, they think they're not going anywhere, and then they disappear into the abyss. They're gone. And it's because you just didn't go, hey, do you feel like we're on the right path? Yeah. In a really like welcoming way. Like, yes, I can give this person feedback and tell them, no, we're not on the right path to my goals, right? Yeah. Someone doesn't want to say that. They don't want to offend you.

unknown 16:44

No.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

We're not, yes, offending you and not telling you because you want to get in trouble. Yeah. Like, I feel like you have a great example. I we had a client who uh told reception that she wasn't gonna come back. Great. I gave them a call and was like, what's going on? And they were like, Oh, they were the clinician was so lovely. Like, I don't want to get them in trouble. Like, it's not it's not that bad. And I'm like, okay, tell me what's going on. Like, why are you coming back? You're not coming back, though, so it's probably best. Yeah, and and then they proceeded to give me the feedback. And it at the end of the day, it didn't matter that they were didn't want them to get in trouble. We can't improve our service if they don't give us the feedback. And as a business owner, I really, really value feedback if you haven't gotten the impression already. I give feedback very openly to people. I'm the sort of person that is always like, particularly in small businesses, like it's so valuable, good and bad. Like if I have a good experience, I'm gonna tell them. If I have a poor experience, I'm gonna tell them because I know for me, I would want to know. I hold myself to the highest standard and I want to be the best. And if we don't receive that feedback, then I can't get it. So it's not about getting someone in trouble. Um, it's about helping other other people to learn and grow as well. Oh, 100%. Like I said before, we've we create these services for the person that we're delivering it to. So how they feel doing it is actually so important because ultimately it's for them. So we don't know as a clinician how it actually feels on that end. And this is something, even in the mentoring program and on my education platform, like if the end if if booking into it or booking a call or enrolling into a program is feeling clunky and not seamless, I don't want it to feel like that. Can you please tell me? Because I'm not the one enrolling in it. So I actually don't know. Yeah, we can't make the change. I can't fix the fact that the link's not working if you don't tell me the link's not working, yeah, or whatever it is, right? So it's like ultimately that is actually so important from a business perspective, I think as a clinician is perspective as well. Absolutely, you're actually servicing the person like in the way that they're the way that you're supposed you're you're trying to. Yeah. Like, are you actually achieving your goals of helping them? Yeah. And I think on the flip side as well is also telling people when it's going right.

unknown 19:11

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 19:11

When they're like, this is going really well. And I loved the experience, or I loved the way you do that. Even um as a team, like colleagues and whatnot, you absolutely killed it in that session today. Like that was awesome. The conversations you were having with so-and-so were really, really great, or like you handled that difficult situation really well. Um, and like giving positive feedback at the same time. Yeah. People are quick to complain, but it's hard to get good positive feedback. Yeah. I um recently actually had an encounter at the barrel shop. Um, I'd followed them for ages on Instagram and I was like, I'm gonna go to this place, they look cool. And initially I actually wasn't going to because I was like, I don't I there wasn't really initially an opportunity for me to do that, aside from like probably going out on my own initiative and sharing it or sending an email or something. Like, but they actually sent me like it must have been three, three or four days later. They actually sent me a message and said, like, hey, it was the owner sent me the message and said, like, we'd love some feedback for the it's for me for the team. So it felt like she was actually genuinely interested in it, not so much like the whole service in a whole, it was like not going to the person I was saying, if that makes sense. Um, and I actually wrote this, actually wrote the giant message, a text message back. It was super easy. And I'm like, oh, she's asking for it, so I'm gonna give it to her. And I gave her this feedback, which was real like I was very impressed with the service. Super, super positive. I was like, this is excellent, like loved it. Um, and very specific feedback about what they really did well because I went to them for those reasons. And I wondered when I was going, am I actually gonna get the experience that I think I'm gonna get from them because of the way their marketing was? So um I told her and I got the most epic message back saying that this is actually so appreciative. The team will really, the team do this, they try so hard to do this, yeah, and they're gonna love hearing the feedback that it's actually coming across that way as well. Yeah. And it's like like if I was a staff member and someone sent that and I was trying hard to do it, I would be like, oh my god, it's okay. When clients send us good feedback, it is like the biggest celebration and it is the best feeling ever. Imagine doing that for someone else, yeah, giving someone else that feeling too. Yeah, like they're trying really hard. You've done something with them, you found it good. Like, tell them. I think it's we're not gonna change anything in this industry either without that feedback. Yeah, and that's like that's really interesting too. Like, we've uh been at the ESA conference recently, and we had some really good conversations about how do we make change in the industry and how do we make waves. And um, a lot of the feedback from ESA themselves were we need feedback. Like people aren't giving it to us. We're giving you the opportunity, whether it's like the end of your survey or if it's after the conference or whether it's from a PD or Whatever it is, we need your insights. And we had a conversation because I was like, Oh, yeah, I've been on the app and reviewing every session that I've been into. And Courtney's like, I've done none. And I'm like, Courtney, you need to do it. I know. But I also feel like it it's I don't want to know if I want to go into this topic, but sometimes I feel like I'm less likely to give my feedback if it's not going to be valued.

unknown 22:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:25

In some scenarios. Yeah. But I think my perspective is that if they only get five responses, it's really hard to make any change because it's a really small cross-section of the population. Whereas they get 500, then they're more likely to make that change. And we're all saying the same things, we're all giving the same feedback, right? Yeah. And so then you do feel more valued. But we need to rally together as an industry to give more feedback. All right, I'll give my feedback. Put in bad. It's not all bad. Yeah, that's true. That's true too. But I think it is it is really important to do that. And especially when they're also asking for it. Absolutely. And if people aren't asking for it, then I'm like, well, do you even care? Yeah. Like maybe they don't care. Exactly. So they're seeking feedback, they're seeking feedback. They're ready for it. I was just lazy because I didn't really use the app. So I forgot it was there. Well, industry-wise or not, I encourage you all to think about seeking feedback more often and giving feedback more often. But what can we do to actually take control this week? What's our one actionable step that we are doing? Take control of the week. Is this kind of, I think, depends on where you're at with what you're doing with feedback currently. If you aren't doing any feedback, and you were like me 10 years ago, scared to get feedback, start getting feedback in whatever way that feels comfortable for you. If you're already doing that, are you actually getting good feedback? Is it useful for you? And maybe you need to think about the questions that you're asking in the way that you're asking for your feedback. Because if you're not getting useful feedback at all, like sometimes going, yeah, I love it, it's great, is not actually helpful, really. It is a little bit. We just have to ask a better question. You have to ask a better question. Yeah, or maybe more questions, like about the the way the service was delivered or whatever it is. Um, and if you are doing all that really, really well, like are you actually implementing change to change that so that the feedback changes? Yeah. So there's value in the feedback. Yeah. What are you actually doing to change? Love it. So think about where you're at on that that journey and pick one and that's your homework. Yeah. Well, thank you for being here today, all. If you really resonated with this um episode, please like, subscribe, share it with your networks because this conversation only gets bigger if we keep having it together. Exactly. Right. Thanks for listening. We appreciate you. Have a great day from wherever you are. Bye.