How Lawyers Can Use LinkedIn to Grow Their Practice | Trial Lawyer View Ep. 84

Why aren't more lawyers using LinkedIn to attract ideal clients, build their brand, and create real career momentum?

In this episode of Trial Lawyer View, host Jason Lazarus welcomes Helen Pamely, a former law firm partner turned psychotherapist, executive coach, and founder of the LinkedIn Academy for Lawyers. Helen shares how she went from burnout in Big Law to becoming a voice for authenticity and balance in legal careers. Alongside guest Rod Sam Toma, a senior business development leader at Synergy, they unpack how lawyers can use LinkedIn to grow their practices, show up as real people, and stop chasing outdated definitions of success.

Whether you're trying to scale your personal injury practice or simply build a more fulfilling legal career, this conversation is packed with insights on leadership, digital strategy, and the future of law.

Key Takeaways

• LinkedIn is a powerful tool for authentic legal branding
• Storytelling trumps self-promotion on digital platforms
• Helen’s viral post on partnership revealed systemic problems in Big Law
• Rod’s transformation into a LinkedIn influencer began with Helen’s course
• Vulnerability online can be a strategic business development advantage
• The LinkedIn Academy fills a major gap in legal marketing education
• Lawyers need to differentiate between personal and private
• AI is changing law, but heart-led service still matters most
• Many lawyers are in survival mode and disconnected from purpose
• Coaching helps lawyers rediscover joy, values, and long-term vision

Chapters
00:00:00 - Coming up...
00:01:30 - Meet Helen Pamely and her journey from law to coaching
00:02:59 - How Rod and Helen connected on LinkedIn
00:04:45 - The viral post that changed everything
00:08:05 - Authenticity as a LinkedIn growth strategy
00:11:06 - Why the LinkedIn Academy for Lawyers was created
00:14:21 - Balancing vulnerability with professionalism
00:16:48 - The future of law and the role of AI
00:22:30 - Lowering barriers to entry for purpose-led law firms
00:26:52 - Helen’s unconventional path to partnership
00:35:49 - Coaching, purpose, and building a career you love
00:45:34 - Why survival mode is dangerous for lawyers
00:54:44 - Helen’s final view: how connection transforms law

Learn more about Synergy’s approach to healthcare lien resolution and firm operations.

Trial Lawyer View features long-form conversations with experienced plaintiff trial lawyers, firm leaders, and industry experts. The show is built for legal professionals who want to lead stronger, more efficient personal injury firms by learning from peers who have built, managed, and evolved successful practices in the real world.

New episodes of Trial Lawyer View are released every 2nd and 4th Monday at 5am EST. 

Learn more here: https://sholink.to/synergycontact

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Transcript

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I wrote this post and I remember the first line was the reason you're not making law firm partner is what they don't want you to know. And I thought this post, it was either going to completely make or break me. I rang my marketing guy and I just said, Am I making the biggest mistake of my life here? And he was like, Well, he's either really good or really bad, so let's just see. Let's just roll the dice. As obviously annoyed enough to write the fight. So I posted this post, did not look at LinkedIn for about 4 hours because I couldn't handle it and it just went completely viral. Welcome to Trial Lawyer View, the podcast dedicated to the fierce, yet compassionate lawyers who fight every day for justice in the courtroom. Our guests are top trial lawyers and their firms who share their stories and experiences, offering valuable insights into their journey, as well as expert guests who provide actionable strategies and practical tips for personal injury. Lawyers looking to optimize their operations, enhance client service and drive growth in their practices. Trial lawyer view is brought to you by Synergy at Synergy. We aren't just a service provider. We are a strategic partner for personal injury. Law firms seamlessly integrating with law firms to boost efficiency from day one. Outsourcing Cumbersome administrative tasks like Lean resolution and Medicare compliance to an expert partner like Synergy enables personal injury firms to focus on what they do best. Welcome to another episode of Trial or Review, where I'm joined by Helen Family. Helen is an international lawyer turned psychotherapist, executive coach and founder of the LinkedIn Academy for Lawyers. After achieving partnership at just 33, Helen experienced firsthand the intense pressures, identity struggles and burnout that often come with success in the legal profession. That journey became the catalyst for her mission to transform how lawyers think about performance, wellbeing and fulfillment. Today, she combines her lived experience in international law with cutting edge neuroscience, mindfulness based therapy and coaching psychology to help high achieving lawyers and professionals unlock their potential without sacrificing their mental health or happiness. Through her acclaimed coaching programs and global speaking engagements, Helen is redefining what it means to thrive in one of the world's most demanding professions. In this episode of Trial Law Review, she shares how lawyers can move beyond survival mode to design careers and lives they genuinely love. From the psychology of resilience to the future of leadership in law. This conversation is an invitation to rethink what true success looks like and how to achieve it with balance, purpose and humanity. Also joining me today is my long time friend, Rod Sam Tomorrow, who is a LinkedIn influencer, attorney and senior business development leader and vice president of Strategic Partnerships for Synergy. Helen and Rod, welcome to Trial Lawyer View and thank you for being with me today on the podcast. Thanks. Great to be here. Yeah, So the three of us connected through LinkedIn, which is an amazing community if you really tap into it. And I wanted to get both of your takes. First off, on the LinkedIn community, maybe Rod, you can lead us off and then Helen. I've been on LinkedIn since December 2009, but I really didn't get involved until the past couple of years. And then, you know, Jason, I've known you, you know, for a couple of decades now. I think, you know, once I make a commitment to something, I'm 100% all in, right? So having said that, I started getting more involved. I started posting more. I started really wanting to get not only the synergy and trial lawyer view out there, but my own my own brand. What is Rod u within synergy and why do I do it? And and why can I be a resource to so many people? So that was kind of the additional catalyst for getting more involved in LinkedIn. And then I saw this wonderful woman, Helen Parmelee, that she was on LinkedIn a lot and it was like LinkedIn for for lawyers. And it was really speaking to me because Helen was talking about nontraditional ways to use your law degree in your law license and how you can be happier and healthier and more successful. And this whole concept that I was unfamiliar with, with what a digital nomad is, and we started to build this professional online relationship and I got introduced to other people and and I saw Helen with these posts that had all these comments and reactions and I'm like, This is really a good platform to get synergies message out, to get my message out, I really want to learn from Helen. So I took it upon myself to sign up for one of her courses. We started engaging online, we had a zoom or two and then I said, This is just a person that I wanted I want to share our respective spaces with in the legal world, even though she may be literally half a world away and it kind of just blossomed over the next six or eight months. And here we are. And I don't I've never met Helen in real life, we call it. I are now on LinkedIn, but I feel like I know her very, very well because we're both very transparent on the platform and I've gotten some business from it. So really it's Helen was the catalyst for me getting more involved, having success there, and then bringing the three of us together. That's just so nice to hear. And I think it is interesting because I think a lot of people still feel like LinkedIn is this stuffy place where you just talk about your own personal accolades and you show off. But I can really relate to something you were saying and recently you did that incredible post about writing to the the Pope, I think in 2001 was really touched my heart. And then I left a comment on that about how I you know, I wrote to a a boy in Spain many decades ago like handwriting in those letters. And I think that those posts both did really well, didn't they? They connected with people. And there's something about being real where, you know, it doesn't matter if you're literally on the other side of the world, you can feel like you really know someone, which is incredible. And I just love that journey. And yeah, I love seeing all of your posts. For me, I haven't been on LinkedIn quite so long. I pretty much ignored, I think until round about end of 2021. I think I had 400 connections which were probably recruiters and a few people I'd worked with, and then they launched my business, my coaching business in March 2022 and at that point I realized that I basically had very few clients because I wasn't well known. I hadn't built that business for that brand. And I just thought, How do I get out there in the world and start talking to people? And so I started as one thing just posting on LinkedIn, and at this point nobody was really posting. So it was not easier to grow and it was much easier to stand out for better or for worse. But it actually took me quite a long time to build my voice on that. I think I was very reserved. I was very aware of how I might be perceived and there were old colleagues and old partners looking. And then there was this one day in June 2023, I think, where I'd been actually talking to a client, and I got really fed up with the system. I got fed up with big law. And I'm not saying they always do this, but it is done reasonably frequently, stringing along senior associates for partnership with actually no intention of making them a partner. And people just aren't ready for it and don't know what it takes from a business development side. So I wrote this post and I remember the first line was the reason you're not making law firm partner is what they don't want you to know. And I thought this post, it was either going to completely make or break me. I rang my marketing guy and I just said, Am I making the biggest mistake of my life here? And he was like, Well, he's either really good or really bad, so let's just see. Let's just roll the dice. I don't know. I was honestly annoyed enough to write the phrase, so I posted this post like did not look at LinkedIn for about 4 hours because I couldn't handle it and it just went completely viral and nobody had said anything like that publicly at that point. I feel like now people are just talking this stuff that the world is a different place. But back then it wasn't. And I got thousands of followers and it wasn't just lawyers, it was bankers, it was financiers, it was all sorts of people. And the DMS I got were incredible saying, I can't believe you just said that. It's so true. And these are like big people, really senior positions. And that was when I realized actually what people want on the platform and in life. Germany is authenticity. I'm not going to be everyone's cup of tea and that's okay for me as long as I'm coming from a place of integrity for the people I will connect with are really connect with because I'm speaking my truth and hopefully they're doing the same. And ever since then, it's just grown and grown. And as Rod says, I think we're both very active today and speak our minds, hopefully in a compassionate and helpful way. This formula of being genuine, authentic yourself, because I know you do so and I see your voice coming through, which is a great example for our listeners of how to use strategies the right way and do things the right way on socials like LinkedIn for for lawyers, that's, you know, another place, another strategy for them to utilize in their growing their firms. And same how on I mean you know watching the messaging that you've put out there along the lines of, you know making sure you are living the right kind of life that you want to live with your career and all of those sorts of things really, I think, resonate. And that's part of why you see that, that kind of following. And I wanted to ask because I'm curious about the LinkedIn Academy for lawyers that you've created that helps lawyers use digital platforms to amplify their voices, build authentic brands, which is all, I think, important to the listeners of this podcast. What inspired you to create it and how can lawyers strike a balance between disability and vulnerability online? Because obviously that's that's kind of what we're talking about here is, is that and I think that there's probably be some hesitancy generally around that. But the vulnerability part for sure that there really, really is it's a big question. I mean, I think we started it because there was just so much needs. It was at a time it was, I think, founded last year in the summer and we were doing really well on LinkedIn and lawyers were just loving it. They were loving our posts about it. We started doing LinkedIn lives, we started talking about it, and then people we were helping were winning clients, winning business, connecting with really important people actually starting to really grow their brands. And we realized there was nothing else on the market like that because there are offerings out there. I think in the legal space where people say, Oh, help you with your LinkedIn, I'll help you do this, I'll help you do that. With all due respect, a lot of the time people haven't grown a following themselves. So there was a gap in the market. People can teach you to network, they can teach to connect, they can teach you to send DMS. But what we're talking about is actually influencer marketing. It's creating a magnetic brand so that people are drawn to you and they want to work with you before they've even reached out. So that's such an easy pitch, right? Most people I got on a call with, they've already decided they want to work with me. Other ways of getting clients. It's like you could be in one of the lineup of ten and you know, it's similar for being a lawyer and I think it's that kind of magnetic brand that's powerful. So we realized there was a gap for this, and we realized as well that one of the central things to LinkedIn, if not the central thing, is your ability to write and storytel And nobody was telling lawyers this. No one was saying, actually, please stop just posting an update about an event. You went to make it interesting. Tell the story. Why did you go to that event? Who did you connect with at the event? What happened at the event? And at the same time you're showcasing that. But people really connect through authenticity and storytelling. So we broke down everything that we had learned over our journey on growing on LinkedIn and created something where people could learn from that. And we created some simple products as well and frameworks people could use. And as was said, hopefully a lot of people have found that really, really useful. I think in terms of striking the balance between vulnerability and showing up, I think you've got to do what's right for you. I wouldn't say to someone straightaway, jump in the deep end and talk about something deeply harrowing or personal. I think it's a muscle that builds. Well, as I said, when I first started on the platform, I would never have dreamt I would write like the way I write now, but I'm massively comfortable with it because I do it every single day and my audience is used to me and I'm used to them. And I think it also depends on what you're trying to portray on the platform, who you're showing up as. At the same time, I think as that muscle grows, you get more confident and then you realize you're not winning clients through the posts where you try and win a client. You win a client through the post where you told a story that connected with them and over a long time they feel like they know you and want to somehow be in your orbital sphere as a person. And I think it's the same for lawyers. So there's also a difference between private and personal. I'm not going to go on LinkedIn and talk about my last doctor's appointment, but actually, if something happened to me on holiday or something happened in my life or whatever it is, if it feels right, I'll tell the story and sometimes I'll change the story a little bit. If there are bits that wouldn't be appropriate for LinkedIn. For me, it's about having an authentic message and conveying that to hopefully add value to somebody else. So I think it's a muscle you have to train and grow and realize that business development and networking is not about shouting from a rooftop, it's actually connecting on a human level. And for that we have to show a little bit of ourselves. Great advice. And if anybody's interested, you can easily find the LinkedIn Academy for lawyers to see how that can help you in terms of your online presence. Because clearly, if you look at how Helen and you look at RADA as an example as well, you've got some some great examples of what can be done with a little bit of work. I wanted to ask you about technology, because you see it all all over the place right now on LinkedIn. I and you know what's going on in terms of just the broader revolution with technology. But when it comes to AI, specifically in personal injury law, our listeners are generally personal injury attorneys. We are seeing some crazy stuff even up just reached a $2 billion valuation with $150 million series. E Super. I went to their conference in New York a few weeks ago. They raised $60 million in a series B in partnership with Thomson Reuters. You got Harvey out. There was something like a $5 billion valuation. You've got all the case management software touting AI. I'm curious about what your view is in terms of the future of the practice of law when it comes to you and AI and technology, because you know, and we'll get into this in a second, but with your coaching, you know, clearly we are at a inflection point. Things are changing. And how how do lawyers now use these tools to make sure ultimately that there's still a heart specifically in personal injury law, which is intensely personal because of what's happened to somebody when they need a lawyer. But I'm just curious about your kind of views about what AI and technology is going to do to the practice of law process. That's a big question, if I had all the answers for that. Jason Look, I think the world has changed overnight pretty much when I think about how I practice law back in 2022 compared to now, that was pre captivity and pre all this huge all these different things like Harvey and this huge AI revolution. It it's a completely different world we're in. But for me it doesn't change our ability as lawyers to have hearts. I think it changes the way we practice. And I am excited actually to see so much of the grunt work, so to speak, actually probably taken away when I look at my junior years and number the number of hours I spent doing document review or drafting lots of versions of contracts or sifting through old templates and having to somehow jumble them together. I mean, as I recently said on LinkedIn, actually, I do think there's a place for that. We need to have proper training, but actually I think it potentially gives us more opportunity to do the human side of law, the relational side, to be there for people. I think if we're farming out what we do to the extent that we don't want that one on one interaction with clients, we've probably got a problem. But I don't think clients in the future would choose lawyers. If that's the case. I think the lawyers that stand out are going to be the ones with personality with, to put it superficially, brands, because people are going to want to know they can really trust someone to do the right job for them to really care. And I think we're going to see this branch and perhaps in the profession of those people who are willing to stand up and really show themselves in that kind of way. I think it's going to be a struggle for juniors because instead of it being like a pyramid, it might go a little bit more like a rectangle. So I think the opportunities will be harder potentially to come by, but I think it's going to become a more relationship driven profession than perhaps it already is. I'd be very interested to know if, if you agree with that or you have a different view on that, actually, particularly given the area of law you're in which is so personal and human. I think all your points are very valid. I think the future is how how do personal injury firms specifically tap into these technologies to deliver even better for someone that's been through something catastrophic? As someone who experienced it myself, Rod knows very well I was struck by a car while cycling back in 2016 and was was significantly injured, and that experience for me was powerful in that. Obviously it gave me insight that I could never have into what an opportunity and privilege we have in terms of the community that we serve. But it was intensely personal, right? And the question is, how do law firms leverage these technologies to create even greater connection and get the best possible results for the injured party? And that's part of what we talk about in terms of our services, because, you know, we deliver with technology and human resources for law firms a way to offload some of the tasks that take away from the time that they could be spending with clients building case values, because unfortunately, in personal injury, the only thing that matters is at the end of the day, the dollars that that person gets that then takes care of them for the rest of their lives in relation to the injuries that they suffered. So, you know, our our team does that for law firms. And as technology continues to come about, like even up super or some of these other technologies that allow law firms to take what you call the grunt work, going through pages and pages of medical records and weaving that together as part of what becomes a demand package. You know, that today is is a something that can happen in seconds if you use technology or it can be done the old fashioned way, doing it in seconds relieves the team from some of those administrative burdens like we do for lean resolution so that the law firm can spend and its team can spend more time on tasks that are building value for the injured party. So I think that technology presents a great opportunity specific. Lee In the plain of personal injury practice for law firms to focus so much more on the people that the great response ability to help through one of the most difficult times people go through, I think it is a it's a real opportunity. The question is, you know, what what wins out in terms of these technologies? Is it going to be the air companies? Is it going to be some of the case management software programs that are building these kinds of technologies, like clearing out some pretty amazing stuff at Clio? Can all of these these technology providers are building things that are going to change the landscape in terms of those administrative tasks that take up a lot of time for sure. And I think it's really exciting when these systems are being integrated together. So I was speaking to someone the other day and they were talking about, you know, a law firm out of a box where they were saying essentially, you can almost immediately set up your law firm there. You've got it in one piece of software which connects with lots of different other software. And I find that absolutely incredible because I think this changes our capacity for speed, for efficiency, which hopefully will really help the clients. It also changes the profession because it gives lawyers so much more freedom. I think we're going to see lots more individual attorneys popping up or smaller firms or perhaps values led heart led firms, because actually the costs of starting up or the barriers to entry are lower than they have been previously. I mean, I find that sort of thing exciting because I hate to say it, but at times I was still having to print emails back in 2020. Like that is absolute madness. Madness wants to level the playing field I think a little bit too in our area because you've got the defense, which is funded by big insurance that has a lot more resources typically than the plaintiff side. And then you have obviously bigger plaintiff firms who have more resources than some of the smaller firms. And using these technologies, it should level the playing fields a bit, which hopefully benefits the injured because, you know, that's in my book, having been there personally, that's not what's important here, is is making sure that those people get taken care of as lawyers. That's that's an incredible responsibility. I want to switch gears and talk a bit about your journey and kind of how you've gotten to an alternative career in the law, which I appreciate. Even though I've still got a law practice, I spend the majority of my time here with synergy and which is a different way of using my my law degree. But you reach partnership in a international law practice in in your early thirties, which is, you know, that's a pretty aggressive path and a pretty cool achievement. But that success came with personal costs. And I wanted to ask you about how that experience as a high performing international lawyer shape your mission to redefine what success means ultimately in the legal profession. My past partnership wasn't at the usual path, and it probably helps if I just sort of rewind slightly from that point because I think people think maybe I made partnership and then I hated it and left. And that actually is and isn't what happened. So I think I was always wanting to be a lawyer. I was super excited to get into law. I was lucky enough to sort out, you know, one of the really big law firms. But, you know, I did my time. It was it was tough as well. I think it was tough for everybody. And within that, I think I was trying to find meaning and purpose. Had I started out doing personal injury or family or something a little bit more on the human side or the 1 to 1 side, I think I'd probably still be a lawyer, but I was always looking for my place and my purpose. And after five years in the really big law firm, I went to another law firm thinking that was going to change everything and it didn't. And I knew straight away it wasn't right for me. So I actually just quit. At that point, I just completely quit the law. Everyone thought I was crazy, you know, on paper I had it all and that was when actually I started on the side doing studies in psych therapy. I was really interested in psychology mindset and I somehow knew I wanted to help people. I didn't want to be a therapist, but I wanted to really understand, I don't know, emotions, people, psychology because I could feel in legal that there there was such a need and I didn't know why or how, but I needed to learn some stuff before I could help people. So I signed up to this for four year Masters, which had 13 weeks residential, I think. And then I realized I needed to fund this. So I went to the law firm. I ended up as partner and I, I said to the managing partner, Would you have a coffee with me? And she said, Yeah, okay. You know, So I had this coffee with her and I said, Look, this is a bit of piece, but I'm looking for a job as where I can do three days a week and I can do my studies on the side and I'll be a great associate. You know, I've got this great background I'm good at. I deal with the rest of it. And she said yes. She said, Yeah. So I thought, Oh my gosh, just get out of her office before she changes her mind. You know? So I started off at the firm. I was out doing three days a week and I really took off. I liked the people. I liked the work. She actually really like, she starts her words, you know, she stuck to my boundaries. I delivered and I ended up doing more time and more hours. But that was because I kind of wanted to and it was always done in a way that works and was really respectful. And then I think because at that point I was kind of dropping all the imposter syndrome and everything else because I always had one eye on the door somehow, although I didn't know how I was going to get to the door, I then just started to really fly in the profession. Like when I did Law, I was 100% in law. And so I became really efficient and I think really good at my job. And when I wasn't, I was doing other stuff. And because of that, I became senior associate quickly. And then there were a few structural changes internally and they just said to me, We want to make you a partner. So I said, okay. Then I realized by that point, you know, I had done enough studies. I had trained as a therapist and I thought, How can I bring something into legal that's meaningful? And I felt like the way to do that was maybe through something like coaching. So I handed in my notice and I then started to think about how I can set up this coaching business and people thought I was completely mad. But actually it's there's been the making of me. I mean, I'd better connected in law now than I ever was as a lawyer. You know, I had 400 connections at that point. I think I have 40,000 now and then I know people all over the world. I know lawyers know different jurisdictions, and people thought I was going to throw everything away and that would be a huge failure. But actually, I built a business, which I love, I'm proud of. I love the people I work with. I'm proud of the impacts that I'm having on the world. And you know, I get to live in Bali. It's been an amazing journey, amazing journey. But that's why for me, sort of the all the burn out and all that kind of stuff, I guess it happened earlier on for me and my career. Never in some big bang, but just, you know, the sort of perpetual exhaustion which I think we all feel at times was super interesting to me. How is Fuzed law, psychology and these practices together? Because I was actually a psychology major in undergrad and then decided to go to law school. So I had always, up until the time I made the decision to go to law school, I had envisioned becoming an industrial psychologist. You know, really being in the workplace, but being on the psychology side because it was always interesting to me. But the fact that you've taken now law, psychology and mindfulness, which is another thing that that interests me with yoga practice and meditation and whatnot. I'm curious, though, you know, how you've taken that coaching and blending mindfulness and psychotherapy and cutting edge science on wellbeing and performance. Looking at all of that, what are some of the biggest misconceptions you encounter in helping pop lawyers integrate all of that into a lifestyle and in their pursuit of excellence? I think when I first started out in this, I thought I couldn't speak about it publicly because I thought, Oh, if I start saying that in law, it's already stuffy. So actually that's not going to go down. Well, if I start talking about what some people think of as maybe we will stuff, some of it we will, some is more grounded in science, you know, But I think actually what I've seen is there is an apps really doing need for this space where we're talking about being well grounded happy humans. And this is one of the reasons I love Bali. I mean actually what I skipped over my journey was the reason that I signed up to a four year psychotherapy masters was because the woman who founded it I came across her was originally a Buddhist nun, and she created this incredible course which Fuzed Western psychodynamic practice with Eastern philosophies and Buddhism. So I'm like, I'd say prolific meditators, so I don't have a way of putting it. I'm really into breathwork. I'm into body work because that's how we process trauma. I'm so interested in going deep into the human psyche, and I think that's what everybody is desperate for. Depression is when people, in my experience are cut off from themselves. We live this fast life where you forget who you are, you forget what you want, you forget what makes you happy. And I think everybody's desperate for that reconnection. So for me, this is about how do we just all start talking about and connecting with these things, which actually are going to create help us create ourselves as more grounded and fulfilled humans. And I think people think, you know, you've got to do something huge and, you know, do yoga five times a day every day or sit on a cloud meditating. But actually it's those tiny moments you take in your day to reconnect with yourself. It's my job as a coach is to help people get enough space to even start to begin to remember who they really are and then start to see the potential of what they can become and then build a bridge to that and what gets in the way is limiting beliefs or a disconnect from self. And in my experience, we need lawyers who are awakened. We need people who are alive to what matters to them and what matters to our planet. And this is all very deep now. But that's where I come from. My coaching is about how do we connect with the core of who you are? Wake that up because that's where your potential lives. It's a great point and it leads me to the next question I was going to ask you, which is many lawyers and I think executives, professionals struggle with identity and you tend entire self-worth with kind of where you are in your career and what you've achieved in your career. And, you know, maybe whether you're a rainmaker in a firm or, you know, all those things. But at the end of the day, what's important is some sense of purpose. Right? And I'm curious, how do you work with clients to get them to connect with their inner purpose that goes beyond the professional validation? That's you know, one of the things I when I started to build Synergy was the idea around mission. Like what? What do we do? Why do we do it sort of a little bit of Simon Sinek? And the answer is we, you know, we help injured parties and we help families and then we are good stewards and partners to law firms we work with, which is there's a a purpose beyond just, you know, whether we're a successful company or not. But finding that as a person too, is really I know for me also that's important is that purpose. In my experience, if you're going to find your purpose, you have to be prepared to become very honest with yourself and to go deep. And a lot of people don't want to do this as is quite comfortable in your everyday. Just carry on doing what you're doing, your earning a lot of money. It feels good and you can go nice holidays. I think for some people that's okay. For some of us though, it's almost like whisper. It's like a bell ringing and that bell just gets louder and louder and you think there's something else, There's something else to this. And I think there comes a time and it has to be of your own free will. Maybe there's something that happened in your life, maybe a tragedy, maybe a loss, maybe something that makes you reconsider who you think you are. And then that's the invitation. And I speak to so many lawyers who everything's perfect on the surface, but actually underneath they're saying, I want to create something different. Or maybe it's not in law, but actually I don't have the skill set or I'm too old or this or that or the other. And it's interesting because, I see in my coaching, I always start with a deep dive session, which is preceded by a deep dive questionnaire, and this kind of gets everything out at the very beginning. Ask questions about who you think you are, your goals or ambitions, what keeps you awake at night, what you think of yourself, what other people think of you, your secret passions limiting beliefs, and then at the end ask questions around What surprised you? What did you notice? And actually, often people will be so shocked in what came out of that because they've never thought about those questions or they've never been forced to sit down and really think about the answers. If it's your deathbeds, what do you wish you looked back and seen? And I think that that surprises people. It helps them go deeper. And actually often it happened just this week I had a client who did the deep dive. We did the deep go session, she said. I wasn't as honest with myself as I could have been. Can I do that again or can I expand that? And I think it's through a willingness and an openness to take these kind of journeys. We're really talking about the kind of Joseph Campbell Harry's journey here. I mean, it depends how deep you want to go. We can talk about here's how you make partner, here's how you network, ensure you can become a partner. But some people want a deeper journey and want to find more purpose. And I think there are more lawyers popping up around like this too, as we were talking about. And hopefully I will help this where you think actually, if I was brave enough to be truly purpose led, what would I create in this lifetime? How would I help people? It's a great point. And I have one of those moments when when I was struck by the car where I spent 21 days in the hospital and nine days in the ICU. And, you know, you sit back and evaluate. Hopefully for most people, you don't have that kind of an experience that forces you. But I know for me that in Broad could probably tell you, knowing me before and after, there was a change. And that was because of the deep work I did after that process, trauma and understand to myself much better. I just didn't really know myself. And I think I've come to know myself a lot better as a result of that work, which then lets me lead the right way within the business world because I know why I'm doing what I'm doing and what it means. So in your coaching practice and when you work with lawyers navigating burnout, leadership pressure transitions, what are the patterns that you've noticed across the profession that hinder lawyers from performance and happiness? Ultimately, I think the biggest one is that we're trained from the beginning to be great lawyers. So we're trained to be technically good, but we're not told from the beginning. Actually, the most valuable thing you have to yourself in your career is the relationship that you hold with people, whether that's with your team, with management, with the senior partners, clients, other industry professionals. So I think people carry on in their career and they do really well, but they don't necessarily have the network or whatever it is that's going to propel them forwards. And I think that's one really big thing. The other thing is I think we become a bit overly focused on the negative as lawyers sometimes because it's the way we have to think, we have to look for risks. So I think perhaps we're not always precocious enough, perhaps don't dare to try to create that opportunity to speak up, to ask for that promotion. Perhaps we believe that those things on ever really going to happen for us, or that if we do, we're going to look stupid. And I think there's also a real tendency to people please and overextend because we have to keep everybody happy. And I think that's one of the biggest causes of burnout. And again, this sort of disconnection with self, if you're disconnected with yourself and your overextending and your people pleasing, actually that's a fast route to burnout. I think there's something about realizing who you are as a person. Again, tapping into your values, thinking about what do I want to offer in this world? Why do I want to be? And as early as possible, be aiming for that and doing everything you can. I spoke to a five year qualified associate today and they were sort of looking at the next couple of years and I said, Yeah, but do you want to make partner? I said, Oh yeah, but I couldn't talk about that. Now, internally, I said, Why not? I said, Why not? Why not go there and say, Actually, I really value this firm. I love the work we do. I see myself having a really long term career here, and I'd love to know what it takes to make partner and to be part of this and to grow. And he just looked at me a bit going out like, You can't say that kind of thing. And I was thinking, Well, I think in some ways, as lawyers, we have to see our careers on a as a level playing field. So instead of seeing like law firm, big partners up there, it's actually you've got something great to offer, something great to give. So how can you see this is more of a sense of collaboration in terms of growing together, because then the firms will really benefit, the associates will benefit. And some people listening to this might think, oh, that's a little bit a little bit too too positive or altruistic or who knows, It doesn't work like that in all firms, but that's exactly it. I think it's about finding your people and finding your tribe within law and your place. And if people aren't singing off the same hymn sheet, then go find some that are. But I think lawyers are some of their own worst enemies and worst critics. I think they need to believe in themselves a little bit more. And most importantly, they need to start loving themselves a bit more. That's the biggest thing when I speak to people and they don't love themselves. And I think it's very, very difficult to become really, really successful if you don't in a way. Yeah, absolutely. And I was going to ask you about this thing that I noticed when I was doing preparation for the podcast. Is you talking about creating a life and career that you truly love? Because that's, you know, if you don't have that, then ultimately what do you have? Because you spend so much time working? And if your life and career are not something that you really loved again, what do you have? And but I'm I'm curious because, you know, we may have someone listening today who's a lawyer just stuck in survival mode. So what is the first step they can take towards this kind of transformation for themselves? I think you need to create space in your life, some sorts of space, and I think we can out the spaces because it becomes more comfortable to ignore them. So I think we're all doing things all the time whereby we kind of sedate ourselves. Okay, for some people it's alcohol. For some people it's who knows? Being on Instagram too long, scrolling is like we fill every space with noise. And I think first of all, you've just got to take a bit of a step back and think, actually what's not working for me in my life is I'm being completely honest. But also where what are the things that I love? Or if I don't love things now, what have I loved in the past? What's brought me joy? I spoke to a guy actually just yesterday and I just said to him at the end of this call, it wasn't right for him to do coaching now because he needed to do other things first. What I just said was one thing you can do for yourself today that's going to bring you joy. And he couldn't think of one thing. And that's a hard place. If you're in that place, please go to therapy. But I think it's about reconnecting with the joy and the gratitude in life, because if you can start to do that in tiny ways, that's when you're going to start to open into a where you can start thinking more creatively and imagining a different future. Very easy to get into the victim mindset. Oh, I'm here this is rubbish. I can't change my life, I can't get another job, I haven't got enough money, etc. etc., etc. That's not going to move you. You need some sort of space, some sort of different perspective, perhaps start to surround yourself with different people, the people you surround yourself with. Everything in my experience. So if you're on negative people or toxic people, all the time, it's just going to drag you down. And I realize that's a sort of roundabout answer. There's no sort of clear cut way, I think, in my experience, but it is you have to create the space for something new to at least begin to emerge. And do you have a different experience? No, I agree with that. 100%. I mean, you the first step is whatever that first step looks like, you know, if it's therapy, if it's coaching, if it's talking to your significant other, it doesn't really matter as long as you recognize, hey, I'm stuck in something that that just isn't making me happy. And, you know, constantly being in fighter flight is so unhealthy for the body and, you know, all the adrenaline that your system gets flooded with. And if from the moment you wake up, you're feeling that that's not a good place to be. And taking that first step, whatever it looks like to start to change the dynamic is is really all that's important. It doesn't matter exactly what that step is. It's just how do you transform and change if you're if you're unhappy there, which I think if you're in survival mode every day, that's not a great place to be. I think that's really right. And I think one of the key things is to actually realize at that point there is help around. If you want to seek it out. There's no shame in therapy and actually my experience is this is just based on my own experience as a coach. But with men in particular, I found that they often don't want to admit there's a problem. So what I find is men will come to coaching not always, but will come to coaching when actually they need therapy. It's like for one moment you have to stop and realize that there are things that need to be looked at before you can keep going full steam ahead. And I think that's one of the hardest things to admit to yourself. Even sometimes. But if you can make that step, that can be hugely life changing. I've done both, admittedly. I mean, it's, you know, having a having a coach and having mentors and having people around you that can help you navigate some of the challenges is incredibly important. But then also, you know, when you experience something or have experienced something that, you know, someone that's trained as a psychologist or a therapist can help you with, it's it's incredibly effective if you're in that place. I know that it can come back to you. Even after I got struck by the car, I just I was so angry and it permeated every thing. And it got to the point where a few people said to me, Hey, you're you're not yourself. And, you know, it made me realize, Oh I need to go talk to somebody. Which should have dawned on me earlier, you know, I mean, I went through something very traumatic and but once began the journey to process that and worked with somebody to process that, it got better. And, you know, those are those are things that unfortunately sometimes guys in particular, like you said, are hesitant to do. But I know for me, yeah, it was incredibly effective in helping me get past that, that experience. And also of interest, could I ask, how did that whole experience and that healing journey change the way that you do law and business? I think it changed everything. I don't think I'm anywhere near the same person. It just shifted for me. I felt like was important because, you know, I remember distinctly laying on the ground after being struck and there was a bystander who came to my aid who actually thank God, had been trained in military as a medic and did some basic, cleared my airway and did some things for me. And I remember and it's very fuzzy because I was in and out of consciousness, but I just remember him telling me, Hey, help is on the way. You're going to be okay. And I remember in my mind thinking, I can't breathe. I'm I feel like this is it. You know, that kind of experience causes you to go, you know, especially and afterwards, my jaw was wired shut. I was on a ventilator. And so I had to shut down my third feeding tube. And so you can't even speak. So I was just in my head. Obviously, I could write stuff down, but still, you know, spending, you know, a long while like that was, you know, because I think I was on the ventilator for about two weeks. So, you know, you're just inside your head a lot. And for me, that was what started, I think, just down the path of evaluating everything, because there's that that's that moment, right? Changes everything. Yeah, I look at that and I think ultimately that that may have been one of the best things that ever happened to me, ironically. Right. Like, I wish it hadn't taken something like that to really go. Yeah. Evaluate everything. But sometimes that's what happens. And you know, whether it's that or just someone realizing, hey this is not where I want to be, whatever it takes ultimately is is the important part to get you to where you should be. Or I think I'm much closer to where I should be. Although one of my mentors, Zoe, said That's the work of a lifetime. And I think that that's very true. There's always more, isn't there? But I think it's interesting. I guess it depends where we're coming from in terms of the more is it a kind of striving and a drive or is it is it purpose led? And I guess if it's purpose led, there's always going to be something new through evolve and grow perhaps. Yeah, you bridge law, psychology and executive coaching with your your career path now. And I'm curious about what you think the future of leadership and law will look like as a result of what you've seen. I think in some respects we're seeing the profession fragment in in a positive way. I think, for example, you've got big law, you've got those sorts of firms and I coach a lot of women in particular in those firms who struggle to perhaps be themselves or to be more heartlands or to not be endorsing burn out cycles, because I think as amazing as those careers can be, and it really does work for some people, actually, there is still a lot of culture which isn't great for people, and I think there's a lot of maybe still struggle around women reaching the top, how they do it in a way that really works for them, whether they're not expected to do everything at home and at work and everything like that. But I think, as I said, we're also seeing different types of law firms pop up where people are starting their own shop, they're joining more purpose, their law firms or law firms where people perhaps have different balance or there are different expectations on them. We've also, at least in the UK, got a lot of consultants popping up where people work on a consultancy basis. So it's not that same law firm structure in terms of leadership, I think we've got a really long way to go in law, a really long way to go to see people being treated properly. And I think part of that comes from the fact that in order to really change culture, we need to be creating and helping leaders really know themselves and know what good or what drives them in the world. I think when we've got leaders who are really embodied and leading with heart or at least have a sense of purpose or who feel they're doing things for the right reasons, we're going to see trickle down effects. And that's part of what, I suppose, my why now, which is if I can do my little bit to help create the next generation of leaders in law who are doing things differently and maybe bring more heart to the profession in the world, then I think that's a fantastic thing. And I think when I keep saying heart, maybe some people listen and think, Oh, that's a really soft thing, you know, or no, we need tough, strong leaders. The strongest people I know have the biggest hearts. I think here we've been in this very masculine, very patriarchal world for a very long time. And I think we're moving into this era now where just generally globally, politically, we're needing to see, think, see things be done differently. And there are a lot of really good people out there, and that gets clouded by some of the negativity. But for me, it's about helping people find themselves because that's where we're going to have the best and most enlightened leaders in law who I believe will be more successful in the long term too beautifully. So. So final question, since the podcast is trial or view, I always ask this question to close us out and it's open ended. So feel free to talk about whatever you want. But as an experienced international lawyer, executive coach and legal career expert, what's your view? My view would be that the more of us you can sort of pull together and strive to make law a better place that's going to have really big ripple effects on the world. And I suppose just to bring in Rod in his links, and I absolutely love that. I think we need to see more people who are popping up like that and speaking with a real authentic voice. It's not watered down. It covers all sorts of topics. It's as he said to me the other day, about someone who commented on my basis that I don't use and I'm an assistant. And Rob said, No, she definitely does not use an argument system for this. I think my view is that we all need to come together and just find our connection. I don't know, be on LinkedIn, be wherever else and yeah, I think that will make more about a place. But that's probably my my way. Yeah, it's a bit wishy washy. Maybe it's a bit so Bitcoin is now. I've been very cheesy today. Idea of connection. This is what we're connecting today. Doing this right. It's it's an opportunity for that. And like you said, more people doing that I think in especially in law because you see a little less of true connection and and perhaps true self and there really isn't any reason why you can't because the idea of heart like you explained, it isn't necessarily a soft position. It's being authentic, being your true self, being, you know, not pulling masks as as a book I recently read talked about wearing masks in any aspect of your life is is not healthy. You being true to yourself is is what's important and how you how that translates is connection. Because if you really are who you are, you're going to connect versus a facade that you know, sometimes you see, particularly on LinkedIn or other socials, you know, it's something that I think the younger generations now, they've struggled with is people appearing to have these beautiful experiences and lives. And the reality is much different from what an Instagram picture looks like or a LinkedIn post. Congratulating yourself on some achievement is right. So I think what you said is incredibly powerful and and very valid for what's going on in society today. Thank you for the gift of your time today. If someone listening today's podcast wants to work with you has interest in what you're doing, whether it's the LinkedIn Academy, what's the best way to reach out you? Well, LinkedIn is always a good place. I'm there a lot or you can email me, I can give you my email. My website is just telling family dot com and there's lots of information there that look all sign up to my newsletter. Like I've really got into that recently and it's lovely to create a community there as well. So it's just a pleasure to be connected with people really well included all the contact information in the show notes for today's episode. Thank you again, Helen and Rod, for joining me on another episode of Trial or Review. And we'll see everybody on the next one. Here is another episode of Trial Lawyer View. We hope you enjoy today's guest in discussion. Tune into our next episode for more helpful insights from fellow trial lawyers and practice experts. This podcast is brought to you by Synergy Visit partner with Synergy Rt.com to learn more about how Synergy can free your firm to focus on what it does best.