Understaffed Intake (The Most Expensive Leak in Your PI Firm) | Trial Lawyer View Ep. 92

Most trial lawyers treat intake as a cost center to minimize, but Marina Bradley proves that one missed call could be a five million dollar case. The failure mode is understaffing intake to save money, which becomes the single most expensive operational leak in a personal injury firm. As Executive Director at Ostroff Godshall Injury and Accident Lawyers, Marina built systems that moved 30% of cases into litigation while covering all 67 counties in Pennsylvania. She tracks intake metrics weekly, sends firm-wide scorecards for transparency, and uses automation strategically to give staff more time for client conversations, not less. Her framework prioritizes hiring ahead of need, admitting when you need mid-level help, and selecting for culture fit over credentials to protect both revenue and client experience.

Marina tracks signed cases weekly, splitting them between organic marketing results and law firm referrals, and monitors complaints filed, demands sent, and resolutions to measure flow from pre-suit into litigation. She sends firm-wide scorecards every week so all 40 staff members see the same metrics and move toward shared monthly goals for signed cases, demands, complaints, and settlements. Marina rebuilt intake by hiring ahead of capacity, listening to every call recording for coaching, and treating each call as potentially worth five million dollars. The firm now achieves a high average fee by moving 30 percent of cases into litigation and has secured verdicts or settlements in all 67 counties across Pennsylvania.

Marina's model shows that operational excellence protects revenue by preventing five million dollar cases from slipping through intake, reducing time on desk so clients receive checks faster, and hiring before fire drills start. She automates to free staff for more client conversations, not fewer, and hires for culture fit over credentials because high performers who poison team morale cost more than they produce. Firms that document every process before scaling, secure cyber infrastructure early, and measure intake conversion as closely as case outcomes will capture the revenue that competitors leave on the table. Her framework proves that the executive director role exists to protect client experience and firm profit simultaneously, not to choose between them.

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Ostroff Godshall Injury and Accident Lawyers

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Marina Bradley 0:00

For most people, they have to call a lawyer for the first time. It's terrifying. They don't understand the process and scary words are being thrown at them, like your deposition is scheduled. We have to all be there for the clients, willing to communicate.

Jason Lazarus 0:12

That's Marina Bradley. She moved 30% of cases into litigation across all 67 Pennsylvania counties. She believes that understaffing intake to save money creates your most expensive operational leak.

Marina Bradley 0:26

The automations that I use give my staff and team more time to talk to clients, not less. That's the way to use it. It's not to automate everything so that clients are just getting text messages. It's about freeing up time so that they can call them and walk them through another section of the case.

Jason Lazarus 0:41

For Marina, automation frees your team for more client conversations. In this episode, you'll learn how one missed intake call could cost $5 million, why understaffing intake to save money creates your most expensive operational leak, and how hiring ahead of need and prioritizing culture fit protects revenue and client experience. I'm Jason Lazarus, and this is Tri Law Review.

Marina Bradley on executive leadership inside a PI firm

Jason Lazarus 1:07

Marina, welcome to Tri Law Review and thank you for being with me today on the podcast.

Marina Bradley 1:12

Thank you for having me.

Jason Lazarus 1:13

So I want to start off with your role. Your title at Ostroff Gottshal is executive director. That type of role at a plaintiff personal injury firm seems like it's still being defined. Because many firms still operate in a more traditional managing partner type of an arrangement. How would you describe what you actually do to a firm who has never had someone in your role? And where do you draw the line between your authority and other parts of the law firm leadership structure? Because I know before we came on to start recording the podcast, you were talking about this kind of struggle at times between the different personalities and roles and someone who is sitting in a trial lawyer seat who really just wants to be a trialord, but doesn't necessarily have the skill set and may not have the right people in the right seats to do what you do.

Marina Bradley 2:11

Yeah. I mean, it's definitely an evolving situation for us. Um, determining who can best help us, what different layers of leadership we need at the firm. It's even hard to admit that you need help sometimes. Um you come into one of these roles and I take ownership of different pieces of the business. And then when it comes time to sort of give them up, it can be a struggle sometimes. Um, and like you were saying, we have our structure of our managing partner and owner, he really does just love the casework. He wants to be, he would like to be in the courtroom every single day. He doesn't really like the day-to-day managing of the firm. So moving one of the other partners into a leadership role with me and figuring out what kinds of tasks are still in my wheelhouse versus, you know, possibly finding someone to run HR. When I started here, I was doing that. Someone to run intake when I started, I was doing that. So filling in those roles and figuring out how to best build the firm in a scalable way, because that's the other difficult thing, is scaling. When you turn up the levers in the wrong place without the right things in place, it can make a lot of chaos. So we've been trying to get better

What breaks when growth outruns the foundation?

Marina Bradley 3:21

about that.

Jason Lazarus 3:21

Yeah, it seems like that foundational piece is what sometimes is overlooked in the traditional model. And when a firm starts to scale without that foundation, that's when things can really break.

Marina Bradley 3:36

I agree. I think, I mean, we've made mistakes as well. We sort of really kicked it into gear with marketing and intake, and we weren't really ready yet. So we had some learning curve and we've learned lessons from that, where we are always sort of trying to look at our numbers to see where we need to fill gaps before they exist. So maybe I need to start training another medical record specialist because I'm going to move somebody into a case management in my prelit department. Like starting to look ahead so that we don't overburden any part of the business when we change things. It's been a lesson that we had to learn because you know you can't wait until you need the paralegal to hire the paralegal. You have to have that paralegal training six months before. So that's been something, and it's a struggle in the personal injury world. It's not the way firms really operated a couple of years ago. It was sort of just like everybody's hair was on fire all the time. So now I don't ever want to be in that position because it's it's too hard to grow if you're always just trying to fill in gaps. Um, so but it's a lesson that we had to learn, and um, it's something that we still are learning, but we are open um to figuring out the best way to measure. And that's another thing we're we're measuring a lot. When I started here, we really didn't know our numbers. And now we do. So I can see sort of if if all the paralegals are getting to a certain level, it's time to hire somebody before we need them. If all the case manager, like so I have all those metrics in place so that I don't I know when you know we're about to be overburdened and I need to fill somebody in. Like I need another intake specialist because the phones, you know, are ringing X amount of times a day. So all those numbers were difficult. Um, and I think it's also still a struggle for us in litigation, like what the balance is, what the number of files is that's right for each individual. Um, and also we also have a medical malpractice group, which has been a new thing that we've developed, which has its whole own set of um metrics and you know, needs. And um, it's been a different animal than our run-of-the-mill MVA premises, animal bite gazes.

The metrics that matter week over week

Jason Lazarus 5:46

Yeah, we run into the same challenges, you know, as handling healthcare liens. We also have specialists and lawyers that are, you know, we're looking at file counts to make sure that they don't get overwhelmed. And it it leads me to the next question, which is as an executive director, you sit between the legal professionals in the firm and the systems that support them. Can you walk me through the operational metrics you were just talking about that you actually watch week over week and why those not the ones perhaps lawyers may tend to focus on are important?

Marina Bradley 6:24

Yeah. So weekly I am tracking um our signed cases. And then I split those by what we call OG cases. That's cases that have resulted from a marketing effort on my part, whether it's Google or social media or television commercial, and then the referred cases. So that's coming from a law firm, cases referred to us from another law firm. I'm also tracking how many complaints are getting filed so I can track how fast things are moving from pre-litigation or pre-suit into litigation. So I can start tracking that time on desk is important to us. Um we're also tracking how many demands are going out on a weekly basis because we have goals every week and every month for the demands. Um, and then we're tracking resolutions, like how many cases settled. But did they settle in pre-lit, inlit? Um, we're also tracking on more of a monthly basis, I track my cost per case, uh, which is a struggle to blend all of my marketing into one number to get a cost per case. But that's sort of the best way that I can do it right now. Because if you get down to like measuring the PPC, you can get in the weeds with sometimes numbers that seem in like that are inflated. Um, so it's it's all a part of, you know, all the things that I'm doing, swag, you know, uh newsletters, Google, you know, LSAs, everything. And so I try to get a, I try to keep it at a steady number. And so I can watch that on a monthly basis. Um, and then also our average fee is something we're looking at probably monthly because we like our, we have a pretty high average fee because we move about 30% of our cases into lit. So we we're a heavy litigation firm. We're not a given settling and pre-lit. We we are gonna file file the cases that sometimes other people may not. Um, and also in Pennsylvania, we have limited tort, which is sometimes we have to get over the threshold. So we we sometimes do keep cases a little longer than others because of that. We're trying to get treatment to get over the threshold. Um, so those are some of the metrics we are always um tracking. And I'm also tracking, I mean, we get down to the really nitty-gritty. I track, you know, wanted leads signed by agent, you know. So I've really started to delve into all those details.

Why intake and time on desk drive firm performance

Jason Lazarus 8:46

Of those metrics that you just went through, which of those do you think is most critical in terms of making sure that the firm operates um optimally in terms of efficiency and profitability?

Marina Bradley 9:00

We are trying to improve our time on desk right now. That's where I see the biggest problem for us currently. Um I live and die by intake. So my wanted lead signed, I'll I'll go down rabbit holes of, you know, have to find out why this one, you know, didn't sign. So that's a big one for me because if we're paying that amount of money to get those calls in the door, I want to make sure we're doing everything we possibly can to get the case signed. Um, so I look for those kind of lead leaks, um, essentially. And I think that's very important too. Um, and now, you know, these are kind of like areas that are my baby. So I guess I favor them. I think if you talk to maybe the head of Prelit, he would have a differing opinion on what the most important things are. I certainly think that um for us, hitting those, the complaint goals, um, but also like getting getting settlements done too, getting resolutions. It's just all very important. Um, and that's why we came up with the kind of the four main things are like signed cases, demands, complaints, settlements, you know, and uh on a weekly basis. I am sending a scorecard out to everybody at the firm every week. So everybody knows there's no mysteries, and everybody's growing in the same direction to hit those goals every month. It's not a secret, it's not just the leadership team, and we use it as a real benchmark and and we're really trying to work together to hit every one of those goals every month. We don't always do it, but we we all are focused in the same direction.

Jason Lazarus 11:19

Well, for selfish reasons, I I do think time on desk is such a critical thing that sometimes gets overlooked, particularly in the area that we assist with, which is liens, because a lot of times that will extend how long a case sits because all those have to be resolved before disbursement and you know, all the issues that that can create from a client experience standpoint, as well as delaying recognition of income for the law firm. So I do think that time on desk, along with everything else that you said, is super important. But I did want to highlight that because I do think there's there is some real importance in law firms really examining that time on desk. Because I don't think a lot of firms dive into that as deeply as they could or should to help them run better in terms of their just efficiency.

Marina Bradley 12:12

Yeah. And if I go into my resolutions right now and I look at what's holding up all the checks that can't be deposited, quite a few of them are because of medical liens or something that needs to be reduced, or we're waiting on somebody to get back to us with something. It really is a struggle for sure. Um, and it's definitely one of the things that holds up that resolution, you know, process. And it's definitely, you can have a client that's super happy, but now they've been waiting three months for their check and they need that money and they've taken loans, you know. And so it becomes, you can really lose a happy client in the time after they have resolved their case and they're thrilled by delaying the payment. Um, so and there's all kinds of things that, you know, that are not preventable sometimes to us, but there are also things that we could be doing more proactively to get that money to our clients, which is the most important thing.

Jason Lazarus 13:07

Yeah. And unfortunately, with what's going on now, a lot of these subro vendors like Rawlings, which is now Machinify and Conduit and Optum, and all these companies are deploying AI to evaluate things and offshoring. And so it's it's causing massive delays and just getting basic information too, which is frustrating, I know, for law firms that are trying to disperse to clients and then obviously to the client who's waiting on their money, and that can impact whether they leave you a five-star Google review or not, which is obviously critical. But you describe your work as enabling teams to deliver impactful results, not running operations for its own sake. What's the difference between a leader that sits in your seat who optimizes for process

Client experience starts before the legal work

Jason Lazarus 13:59

and one who optimizes for moving cases and clients forward with that customer client experience focus?

Marina Bradley 14:08

Yeah, I definitely have uh a customer and client experience focus. Um, and that also leads me, like I'm looking at my team to make sure we're all a cultural fit that's important to me. Um and part of that is then treating our clients really well. Not, it's not just about the numbers, it's it's about really making sure every client is having a good experience from the the first call they make, the first web form they fill out through their case manager and litigation and that they feel um informed. I think a scary thing, we all forget how scary it is to need a lawyer. Uh for most people, they have to call a lawyer for the first time. It's it's terrifying. And they they don't understand the process and scary words are being thrown at them, like your deposition is scheduled. Like we have to all be there for the clients, willing to communicate. I've tried to set up, you know, when we talk about even like automations and things, the the automations that I use are to give my staff and team more time to talk to clients, not less. Um, it's that's the way to use it. It's not to automate everything so that clients are just getting text messages. Um, it's about freeing up time so that they can call them and walk them through another section of the case. And so I'm always looking in every part of the business for that client experience. So when they first call and and they get my intake people, that they're getting empathy and warmth and you've come to the right place and that they mean it. Um and when they get a case manager that they are being treated respectfully and they're getting the help and the treatment that they need and that they I also um from an operation standpoint though, when we talked about like making sure people aren't over, you know, don't have too many cases, too much to do. Because I have to look at that as, you know, if my case managers have a hundred people to call and they're supposedly calling in every day, you know, that there's only a limit of how many times they can call.

Jason Lazarus 16:03

Hi, quick question for you. Does lean resolution administration feel like a quiet bottleneck inside your firm? Medical liens, Medicare compliance follow-ups, and documentation can drag on long after the case is resolved, tying up capital and attention your team can be using elsewhere. This is where Synergy can help. We partner with personal injury law firms to handle complex healthcare lien resolution and compliance work, helping firms move cases to resolution more efficiently without adding internal burden or more overhead. If that sounds like something your firm is dealing with, you can learn more by clicking the link in the show notes or scanning the QR code on the screen. Now back to the conversation. What you just talked about for someone who's been through their own personal injury case, you know, personal injuries, they say it's personal injury because it's intensely personal. And like what I went through, I know because I experienced it firsthand that that is such an important thing for law firms to understand is not to lose that personal touch with what's going on with technology. Use technology to take off your team's plate and outsourcing to companies like ours these administrative level tasks that ultimately take away the time that could be spent either enhancing the value of cases or better client experience and client communication. Because without that, again, those five-star Google reviews are hard to come by if you're not providing the right kind of experience for the client, given what you outlined, which is that you know, people don't like having to call lawyers. And particularly in this situation, it's such a difficult process. Even for me, who had been part of the industry for, you know, 15, 20 years when this happened to me, I still found it incredibly daunting and difficult. And I had a whole team around me that, you know, was helping pick up the slack for my jaw was wired shut for three months. So it was kind of hard to do my job well with your jaw wired shut. So, you know, I was very lucky and fortunate compared to most people that go through this. I had it easy, really.

Marina Bradley 18:25

I was reading about how you had an experience in in the like a personal experience, which was interesting because that's sort of how Rich Godshaw got into this as well. His father was a union carpenter that was injured on the job. And Rich took him to lawyers to speak to lawyers, and they were talking down to him essentially. And Rich thought, gonna go into personal injury, and I'm never gonna talk to a client like that. I'm gonna make everybody feel like they're important because they are. Um, and Rich has, you know, there's his famous story of, you know, what he does every afternoon. He writes two clients' um phone numbers on a post-it and calls them from the car so that he can talk to them for a couple minutes, just see how they are, how they're feeling. And that's something that he's just kept doing. Now we're trying to do that more with like apps and, you know, maybe not just the post-it note, but um, it's organizing and systematizing it a little bit more. But um, it's the concept that, you know, the firm owner's calling you because you're important. Truthfully, that's w how he runs the business and how he always wanted to run the business, where the clients are the most important people.

Jason Lazarus 19:32

It's meaningful. So uh I wanted to go back to something you mentioned, uh, which was scaling. And most firms grow until

When founder-led firms stop scaling

Jason Lazarus 19:40

something just breaks. And looking at OG and the firms you talk to through um LA, what typically do you see is kind of the threshold where a firm that's founder-led in terms of operations stop scaling and what are the signs that that's starting to happen?

Marina Bradley 20:02

I think that people are getting a little bit better at knowing that they need some mid-level help. Um, but I still think there's a struggle in admitting it because I think people, especially like high-performing attorneys who, you know, have started their own firms, you know, they think they can do it all. And when they start to realize that you have to admit that someone else can be better at stuff than you are. Um, once you can have that admission to yourself, and sometimes it's a struggle, um, I think that's when you see um that it's time. Uh but I I don't know. I think I've seen it happen in a number of different ways. Some people just start to get burnt out, um, or they take advice and they hire in the wrong area. Um, so I think it's hard to have one quantifying, you know, factor that says you need this person. And I know there's people who say if you have 20 employees, you need this. So there are some metrics people go by, but I think that it's been a struggle for even me. Like I we've hired like pieces that I need, and I've been sort of against them because it's human nature, I think, to feel like we want to be in control. And I think that's what's tough is the owners letting go of some of the control. Where but they have to be ready to give somebody else some trust so that they're able to make decisions on their behalf and make the right decisions on their behalf. Um, and I don't think there's an exact time or number that you can know, but I think you know when you you know that you need the help.

Jason Lazarus 21:44

We're talking again before the podcast started a little bit about rich mm loving to be in the courtroom. And some of what you just talked about is for lawyers to think, well, what do I really love doing? Some, you know, like Mike Morris, I talked to you, said, you know, I realized I really loved the business aspect of this. And but then I I did need a COO. And you know, so I mean, it it's it's starting to have that recognition of, well, who do I need around me for this to grow and scale without it really breaking? I think is really kind of the bottom line of it.

Marina Bradley 22:23

Yeah. And who's going to be responsible for tracking once you figure out the metrics, or you may even need help figuring out those metrics, who's going to oversee them and track them and keep the departments on base? And like it can be difficult. And I think some of the law firm owners love the marketing piece or they love the business piece, or they there are different areas that Love. And I think that's where they end up filling different gaps first. They stay in the piece that they love until and they replace the pieces that they don't love, which is there's an exercise that Mike, Morse, and John do where you sort of do like this kind of heat map of like what you're good at and what you like doing. And you you want to generally be doing the things you're good at and like doing. And in the beginning, you're gonna have to do some of the things that you're good at and hate doing, but you should probably not be doing a ton of the things that you are bad at and hate doing. So that's like a good exercise in figuring out, I feel like where you first need to turn for help. Uh, I thought it was enlightening when I did that because I sort of had never thought about the fact that, like, boy, I hate this. You know, like we have to find help for this because I hate it. And I'm not great at it either. So, and I should be concentrating on the stuff I like and I'm good at. So I think owners that can do that exercise with themselves realize where they need to turn first for help.

Jason Lazarus 23:41

Aaron Powell Well, that's a great segue into the next question. So I know this is a generalization, but I think it's

Protecting client outcomes after resolution

Jason Lazarus 23:48

it is pretty true that trial lawyers typically love to litigate, but they tend to hate the cleanup when the case resolves. And I'm curious about what systems you've put into place at OG to protect client outcomes and firm health after the resolution of a case when the lawyers have already moved on to the next case.

Marina Bradley 24:10

Aaron Powell We've talked about the struggles of getting the checks from the adjusters and the insurance companies. It's something we're just constantly struggling with and yelling about on LinkedIn. Um, because it is really difficult. And we want to make sure the client doesn't feel like they've just been forgotten about after that case resolves. I mean, the attorneys are still staying in communication with them and also the paralegals is very important, my litigation paralegals, uh, or the case managers if it's if it resolved in pre-lit. Uh they're staying in touch with the client to keep them posted, uh, so people know exactly what's going on and what what has happened last in their case, whether it by email or text message, we use an app, giving them a phone call, so that they don't feel lost or uninformed. Even if the answer isn't, you know, always the best news. You know, we may have to wait another week, somebody's on vacation or whatever. They're being communicated with at all times. And then I think they still feel our advocacy because we're still fighting to have, you know, their medical bills reduced or see what we can do to get a reduction if they've taken a loan. We're still really trying to help them. It's not just okay, shut the book and you're out. Um, and then also we're emailing them asking, you know, if you had a great experience with me, we'd love if you could leave us a review. And so hopefully, if people are asking for a review, they know that they've done really good work for the client. Um, we have a lot of luck with that. With the attorney, even sometimes just texting the person personally with a you know link to our Google reviews. So those are all the things. And you know, we always we always point out to them if you ever need us, just call us. Um, it's a concept that we we say a lot at the end of the case. So it just reminding people that we're always here for them. That's another thing that I've tried to do a lot more of with our marketing is staying top of mind. So people have a great experience with a lawyer, but five years passes and someone gets in an accident, they don't, and they don't remember who it is. Uh, you have to sort of be staying top of mind, however, that works. I'm sending out, you know, magnets or newsletters or what I like so that people are are remembering that they had a good experience with us. Uh, because it's just people forget.

Jason Lazarus 26:29

Yeah, being top of mind is a critical thing for marketing. So you came into personal injury law from the dark side, I believe, an insurance defense firm. I'm curious what your

Lessons from the insurance defense side

Jason Lazarus 26:40

um previous role taught you about operations that most plaintiff firm leaders never see.

Marina Bradley 26:48

Aaron Powell I think that coming from the other side was very it was very interesting to me. I when I came over to a personal injury, it was so different. It did take me some time to really adjust. Now, I definitely learned a ton at my uh insurance defense firm about law offices, running an office, a lot of the logistics of running a business. However, the concepts of dealing with insurance companies and adjusters versus dealing with clients directly was very different. And intake, all those things. It really took me, I think, three months to get my bearing. Uh I could do the nitty-gritty. I knew how to like hire a payroll company and, you know, get our insurance benefits together and, you know, sign leases. But the the concept of personal injury was something that it took me some time to get my head around. And I I absolutely love it, you know. I think to myself, it's there's nowhere I'd rather be. Um, so I'm thankful for that firm for teaching me, but also so much happier on the plaintiff side, um, which a lot of people say. So, but I just I feel like it's more rewarding working for uh, you know, the clients and doing things for people and always being thinking about people, not thinking about, oh, this adjuster needs to save an extra hundred bucks and you know, all the billable hour nonsense and tracking billable hours. And, you know, by the time I left that firm, in the beginning, if we had an invoice like under $500, we could pay directly in bill, but like chipping away, the insurance companies chipped away. You couldn't print anything, they wouldn't pay for the pages, you couldn't, and it just is exhausting from that side of things, and it gets worse all the time. So it's easier here to feel like you're working for a person, not a machine.

Jason Lazarus 28:47

Yeah, I did insurance defense work right out of law school and that for about three years, did medical malpractice and workers' compensation defense work, and it it drove me crazy. I could not see doing that for the rest of my career. And when I decided to get into this side of the business, wanted to be on the side of the plaintiff to help people that were injured, just because I always felt like I was part of the problem, not part of the solution on the on the defense side. Not that there's no place for that, because clearly there needs to be representation on both sides. But it is hard, I think, to to sit on that side of the table if you have empathy and you know see what happens to people uh in these situations.

Marina Bradley 29:35

Yeah, I I agree. I remember just the the stories of the the fights we'd be having about like like the time of suffering and stuff. I would get like it would exhaust me to be fighting to say, oh, this person only suffered for three seconds or whatever. It's just like that kind of stuff just wore on me. So over here, it's not like it's perfect, but I do feel like we're advocating for somebody who deserves it. Um and and it's also just interesting. And the business is very different. I do think personal injury firms are run differently. Um, there's more of like a there's more of a cultural mentality, culture mentality. Um, with our, you know, we have core values and social contracts, and those things are important to us. And finding people that fit into the roles here, I think it's been important to keep in mind we're we're looking for a certain personality that has many different skills. But I think a lot of times we're we're we're looking for some certain traits in our lawyers, everybody that are important to our firm culture. And I think that's a little difference than when you're just working for insurance companies and just kind of cranking out work. Um, and I think it's been difficult, I think, for so Rich came from insurance defense also. So he was insurance defense for 10 years. So, you know, it's been interesting to change my mindset about it, but it's been very enjoyable too. Uh and I wouldn't I would not want to go back to insurance defense. Although, like you said, they're also a place for them. And I have many friends still on the insurance defense side.

Jason Lazarus 31:11

So you just mentioned something that I I think is key and I wanted to double-click on it quickly.

Building core values that actually shape hiring

Jason Lazarus 31:18

The culture and values. How did you go about either changing it or instilling that if it had not been created when you joined?

Marina Bradley 31:28

It had not been created when we joined, when I joined. Uh we first sort of sent something around to the whole firm and asked people to put like one or two or three things that defined us, they felt like. So then we took a look at everything that people said and looked for some common things and looked for some, you know, uh what, but also to an extent, I don't know that that's the exercise to do. That's the way we did it. But at the end of the day, we sat down and decided which four things were really me and Rich and Ryan. Um, because it really had to come from us and we had to believe it. And we struggled back and forth a lot. But we did an exercise um where we just sort of hit them around for a while in emails, and then we we we decided these are the four that represent us. That's us. It doesn't need to be all 40 people here. Um we should be looking for people who fit these that we write. So that's kind of how we did it. Um we did take into account some of the things people had said, but we also didn't just go with whatever anybody, oh, 15 people said this, so it's our, you know, that's our, you know, goals. So we also wrote the social contract as a separate piece at the round the same time as the core values. Social contract is a more voluminous document of laying out um more about what we define as this place, like the things about the people here and what's important to us, uh, that the client is the most important, that, you know, everybody's here to help each other. Uh, and everybody here can, you know, help at any level. Uh not, you know, we don't gossip, all the things that were important to us. It was easier to say, you know, we have grit, we have empathy, but those things are still really important to us. Uh, we communicate. So um, those were kind of things that we had to come to the realization that we had to pick out what was important to us and then find people that fit into that rather than the other way around, just go with whatever buddy wanted to do. Um, and I think it's been an interesting, it's been an interesting exercise. I really do look at the core values um when I'm interviewing candidates. We used to interview candidates and just like, they seem okay, you know, they like were capable, but we didn't actually dive into that to see if they really fit in with our core values. So now we do. And we even have done some um personality testing, we've started doing predictive index testing um to try to even like profile the people who work in certain roles because there's different personality types that fit into different roles here. So it's not like we need one cookie cutter person, but we've been developing what type of people or have success in what roles. Uh, it's been interesting. And also just the borderline, you know, we do want the people to have their core values. It is important to us because it's important at every step of the case, from intake to me to anybody that anyone's gonna have a touch point with at this firm, the attorneys, everybody. So it's been it's been a learning experience. But we finally, in the last like two years, I think got it hammered out. We hung them up on giant, like I had them made and we hung them in our war room. So they have they're always there, you know. Um, and we give them in the handbook to every new employee and they sign the social contract. And that's it's been very important to me because it goes beyond dress code, you know, your hours are nine to five. It's really about we're candid about it when we're interviewing people as well, because we want people to know who we are. And it's been a very nice way to be able to give somebody a one sheet that just says who me and Rich are, I think.

Jason Lazarus 35:23

Yeah, recruiting for culture fit is just as important as skill set, in my opinion, because you know, the if you're if you've got the right skill set, but you're not the right cultural fit, that's problematic or just as problematic as if you don't have the skill set. And using some of these evaluative tools like predictive index, which we use, is a great way to figure out if that candidate really has the right um personality profile for the role that they're going to fulfill in the firm. So critical.

Marina Bradley 35:59

That was a tough lesson to learn, honestly, because you would I would get very skilled, you know, resumes and people who had experience, and I would go with that and I would ignore the you know the not a cultural fit. And what happens then is those people tend, even if they're high performing, they tend to take everybody down a little bit with them. Um and they they poison things, and it's just it ends up being not great. I would rather, they say what uh hire for traits, train for skill. I mean, it's easier said than done at a law firm. I would love more ability to train better, something else that I'm working on internally. But um, it's been a struggle, man. Just because you know, like I'm trying to get trainings together for jobs I don't really know how to do, like like litigation paralegal. So the but that's definitely been a goal of mine so that I can do more robust training so that when I find those cultural fits, we're able to get them in and really get them trained. And also just having trainings of everything at the firm, because you know, in a firm our size, you have like only one person knows how to do one thing. So I've been trying to change that as well.

Jason Lazarus 37:14

Yeah, having some redundancy. So I wanted to ask you about operational leaks. So and uh I'm gonna list a few

Where operational leaks cost PI firms the most

Jason Lazarus 37:22

things: intake, uh resolution administration, medical records, lean resolution. Where do you see the most expensive operational leaks in a typical personal energy firm? And what do most leaders get wrong about fixing those sorts of things?

Marina Bradley 37:39

I think, I mean, again, this is gonna be my opinion, which is probably, you know, biased, but I think that the most expensive leak is an intake. To me, one call could be $5 million. If you don't have your processes set up, and if you're trying to save money in intake by taking shortcuts, I just think that's the wrong way to go about it because it's just the area where every single one of those calls is possibly a multi-million dollar case. Um, now you have to withstand a lot of calls that aren't cases at all. That we we call them KO, we cut KO or turn down a lot of them. Um, but we are on the side of getting signed documentation as soon as possible so that we can start investigating the case. Um, and and then, you know, if it's not a case, fine. But we're trying to get as many signed as we can so we can get a better look. Because to me, that's that's where the most expensive leak is. Now, there's definitely a, you know, there's definitely an argument to be made that in the resolutions, if the clients are not getting checks, and and like you said, medical records is is a big problem because medical records can take a long time and that affects the time on desk. So the, you know, the client's sitting in pre-lit and we can't get medical records. Again, the liens, it's you know, definitely a holdup. But I would say time on desk is probably the other financial hole. Um, because if you can cut a couple of months off the time on desk, you're putting revenue in the previous year, kind of. You're shortening everything up. You're you're doing you're doing 14 months of revenue in 12 months if you can start like speeding things up a little bit. So that's definitely a goal of mine. I'm not perfect. Um, I've gotten pretty good on intake because I've just put the processes and the people in place. You have to have a little bit of a heavy staff in your intake department that's trained and they're empathetic and there's constant, um, we're constantly listening to the recordings of the staff and making improvements and coaching because I just think you never know which call is the next big case. Um, and also, you know, we want to help as many people as we can too. You know, we we really think we're the best. And that that's something that's important in my intake, that they really do believe that we are the best. That they would they would recommend their family come here, you know, if they had a case. And I I truly believe they all do believe that. So yeah, I mean, it's something that I think that me and Rich have not agreed with all the time because I feel like that needs to be an overly staffed department.

Jason Lazarus 40:21

Yeah, I understand that perspective, and certainly not alone. I mean, I I've had plenty of guests who have talked about specifically the intake being so critical in terms of the investment recoupment because the dollars it costs to bring those cases in. And if you have an intake process that's broken and you miss out on converting a case, that's that's a significant revenue issue, that lost revenue issue.

Marina Bradley 40:51

Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's not getting any cheaper to advertise, especially in markets like yours, markets like mine in Pennsylvania. Like, you know, everywhere is a billboard. You drive around Philadelphia, I've driven around Florida too. It's just billboard after billboard after billboard of, you know, a lot of personal injury. And then you go online and it's competitive. The TV market, there's big names that have just millions of dollars a month in budgets. So to compete with all of that is expensive. And so that's why it's so important to me.

Jason Lazarus 41:25

You got to convert if you're competing with those. I had mentioned before your involvement with ALA, which is Association of Legal Administrators, and I know you're the

What legal administrators are talking about right now

Jason Lazarus 41:34

vice president, I think, newly installed uh for your independence chapter. Uh and I think you're also involved with some of the legal administrator um folks with AAJ, because I know there's a group there. Uh what conversations are happening among legal administrators that trial lawyers should be hearing, but maybe are not?

Marina Bradley 41:57

That's an interesting question. I think um there's a lot of conversations happening regarding, I think, um, technology, which technology is most helpful in a law firm, what's going to speed up processes, what is gonna make people's just make processes move faster is essentially what it is. And there's just so much chatter, it's hard to boil it down. And I don't think anybody's sure where the right area to start is or what is going to help, you know, move along cases. I don't think that the attorneys are as dialed into that stuff as they should be sometimes. So I think they have to start listening to some advice. And the thing is, with respect to some of the some of the technology out there, it may speed up processes that aren't as, you know, fun or high level or whatever you want to call it with the attorney level, but they do speed up the general running of an office. Um, and so that that's number one to me. The other things that are being talked about, I mean, just lots of things with with people and building staffs and building teams, I think, and uh team building and team building exercises. And I think getting Gen Z like involved in the workplace, I think it's very important to them that they have certain intangibles that I don't know that everybody is um talking about so much. There's little things that get them engaged, like knowing the why about why things are done a certain way. And so I've been trying to learn more about how to engage Gen Z. Like they they're working from, they're working remotely, they're used to it. They were in high school remotely, you know? Um and making peace with the old version of a law firm where people are in the office until seven o'clock at night every night, versus they're working from home and they're getting plenty done. So there's conversations about the in office versus remote, I think, as well.

Jason Lazarus 44:01

Yeah, great point. And especially on the technology side, I think one of the keys from having a number of guests on the podcast talking about what's going on right now is really understanding where the levers are in your practice by mapping out areas where perhaps technology can be deployed to take some of the administrative burden off the team so that they can focus more on, as I said earlier, either enhancing value of cases or better client experience, more touches of that particular client. And you know, that was part of what we we just launched a AI slash uh Human in the loop solution for verifying healthcare recovery obligations. So we because that is such a time-consuming task for many law firms, that using technology to do that and removing that step from the team is something that frees the team up to do other tasks. So evaluating your practice from that lens of what can what is repetitive, what is administrative, what can be done by technology that then frees the ta the team up to do high-level legal work or high-level touch work with the personal injury victim.

Marina Bradley 45:24

Yeah, I agree completely. That's what I, you know, we were talking about not using the automations to be client-facing, um, but using them to speed processes so that we can be more client-facing. Um it's definitely been a huge thing. Um and the technologies are just changing so fast, also. Everything from phone systems, even, you know, not just AI, but everything has changed and developed. And it you have to keep up. And it is difficult to keep up because it's almost like a new, a new company pops up every like five minutes. Um and it's it's hard to weed through all the chatter and figure out what you actually, what's going to actually help and what isn't. Um, and if you believe everybody that comes down the road, you'd be buying, signing contracts every, you know, every day. So you have to really be able to evaluate things with a critical eye. And that's time consuming. And that's something that the lawyers, you know, shouldn't have to, at the entrepreneur level ones should be able to trust people like me, I guess, to make those choices. But sometimes they're also hard to make without the input of the lawyers because it's things that really work in our CRMs or whatever else. And we need input from multiple layers of the business to really evaluate.

Jason Lazarus 46:44

Yeah, and figuring out what that tech stack looks like and how it all interacts and works together is pretty critical. And it's going to be interesting to see how it all shakes out with the kind of tension between now some of the AI platforms and how they dovetail with the case management systems and all of that. To me, that's a very interesting thing to see what the future holds for all of that. You've been very generous with your time. Uh, a couple more questions and then we'll wrap up. If you were starting a new personal injury firm tomorrow with one founding partner and a goal to scale to

The first systems to build before scaling

Jason Lazarus 47:25

30 lawyers, what would be the first three operational systems you put in place before hiring anyone?

Marina Bradley 47:32

Operational systems though, put in place. I think that's a tough question, man. Uh because system-wise, I feel like, well, I would start documenting everything that I know in each department to make it into a system so that I could teach whoever I'm hiring. So I would know that I pretty much have to do, you know, many of these things still, but I wouldn't just have it living in my head. I would have it all, you know, out. I'd make video recordings, I would do whatever I needed to do to get all of that um into a process where people could basically go to Marina's personal injury law firm, university, I guess, sort of, and it would just document every piece. Um, and then I think I would also, I mean, I would put I would put a lot of security in place too. Cybersecurity, online security. I would make sure I had a good phone, secure phones, secure email. I think people don't put enough into that. Um, and and it that's where you see people get into trouble. And it's such a dangerous, um, it's such a j dangerous game to play.

Jason Lazarus 48:46

And then AI policies too, right?

Marina Bradley 48:50

AI policies too. Yep. Now, you know, I have one I'm working on right now. It's not finished. And I see a lot of emails that I know Chat GPT wrote coming my way. So I do have to get um a little more in place. I I I do know, you know, we have to have some control on that because it's very dangerous to be putting things into open chat um with, you know, to with names or anything. So the policy has to be there and it has to be overseen also, because you have to be able to prove that people aren't doing it. So I think those would be the things I would do first. Um because I think if that if I was starting all over, I'd have to get out everything that I know so I could start again. Um, and then work from there and try to try to build.

Jason Lazarus 49:41

No, which is key. I mean, the the foundational aspects of processes within uh a company or a law firm, no different, you know. It's to scale, you've got to have that so it becomes repeatable as you bring on more and more people. So key, key foundational thing.

Marina Bradley 50:00

It gets missed a lot because law firms, the you know, owners start, they have five employees that they took from two, through three firms they used to work at, and they all do things different, but that's okay. And then you start to have some success and you're putting people into different roles or you're forcing people to do things that are out of their wheelhouse, you know. So you have all the paralegals answering intake, but you're not doing a great job on intake if that's your processes. So I think like it's better to have a real system um in place and know where you're going. And I think that would lead me to make the decisions about who I added next as I got to add more employees.

Jason Lazarus 50:37

Yeah, great point. So, final question. I always ask this and it's very open-ended. Um, so you can answer it however

The future of PI operations, marketing and client trust

Jason Lazarus 50:45

you want. As an experienced personal injury firm operational executive, what is your view?

Marina Bradley 50:52

I think my view is that this um space is changing for a number of reasons. Uh I don't know what it's gonna look like, but I do know with you know, MSOs, the managed services organization starting with venture capital and private equity, not only in Arizona, but the MSOs leaded into other places, with the competitiveness of marketing, with the changes coming from AI, this is a space that's rapidly changing. Um, and about the only thing I can control is making sure I'm giving people the number one best client experience that I can possibly give them. And that my entire team is focused on that as well. Because to me, and the other thing is being involved in the community is important again. We do a backpack drive, we gave away a thousand backpacks last year, would be bigger this year. Doing those things in the community to prove that you are a part of the community and you're not just a lawyer from you know another state that's just running $10 million in advertising. I think those things are becoming more and more important. You have to prove to people that you are a part of the community. Um, and I just think those are the only things I can control. I can't control Google or AI search, and we can try to keep up and you know do all of the marketing, but I can't spend as much as the big guys. So I have to set us apart in a different way. That's why that's always been my focus because I saw even a couple of years ago, everything has just gotten more expensive, gotten more difficult. The spend's out of control, the TV, online, everything. So setting us apart in whatever way I can, if that's making videos that explains processes, if it's, you know, being making sure that Rich is calling a couple clients every night, all the things that we can do to set ourselves apart. And also produce great results. Rich is a great lawyer. We all we have great lawyers here and paralegals and everybody. And we are fighting, we fight. So you can go somewhere else and you know, but we're gonna fight for your case, we're gonna fight for you. And that is truly we have grit is a main one of our, you know, uh core values, and we believe that because we're gonna fight for people. And it sounds cliche sometimes, but it really is true.

Jason Lazarus 53:10

No, all great points. Thank you. Appreciate your time today. If anyone has any questions about anything that you've talked about during today's episode, what's the best way to get in contact with you?

Marina Bradley 53:21

You can email me at mbradley at oglaw.com.

Jason Lazarus 53:26

And if anyone listening needs to refer a case in your jurisdiction, what types of cases do you handle? And what's the best way to learn a bit about OG Law?

Marina Bradley 53:36

I mean, you can certainly learn about us on our website, oglaw.com. You can see our practice areas. We're primarily uh motor vehicle accident, premises, slip and falls, uh, and animal bites in Pennsylvania and New Jersey. That's the only states that we handle cases in. Uh where we've had a successful verdict or settlement in all 67 counties in Pennsylvania, which sort of sets us apart because we really are Pennsylvania's statewide local law firm. Um and you can send the cases my way. We're we're happy to have a conversation with an attorney, and Rich would be happy to have a conversation with somebody if they wanted to refer a case. We also do handle medical malpractice cases in Pennsylvania and New Jersey.

Jason Lazarus 54:17

Thanks again, Marina, for joining me on the podcast. And we'll see everybody on the next episode of Trial Law Review. If today's episode gave you a new perspective on how your firm operates or sparked a useful idea, consider sharing it with a colleague and be sure to follow the show so you don't miss future conversations with leaders across the personal injury space. Trial Law Review is brought to you by Synergy, a strategic operations partner helping personal injury law firms resolve healthcare liens more efficiently. If you're looking to accelerate case flow and allow your team to focus on high-level legal work that moves cases faster, consider partnering with Synergy. I'm Jason Lazarus, and I'll see you in the next episode.