The Devil, your flesh or sin?

Most spiritual warfare does not show up as something dark and obvious — it shows up as pressure, confusion, broken patterns, and eroded joy. This episode names the three battlefields every disciple is navigating — the world, the flesh, and the devil — and gets practical about how to fight each one well.

In this episode:
• The three battlefields: the world, the flesh, and the devil — and what each one actually looks like
• Satan's primary weapon is not power — it is distortion of truth
• You cannot cast out flesh — you crucify it, and here is what that means practically
• Why consumerism applied to the local church is a demonic strategy
• Three models of deliverance ministry
• Not everything is demonic. Some things just require repentance.

This series is sponsored by Logos Bible Software — and all three of us genuinely use it. Whether you're trying to go deeper in Scripture, prep for teaching, or just slow down and actually understand what you're reading, Logos is the tool. It gives you context, original language insights, commentaries, and more, all in one place. It's not a shortcut — it's a companion. You can try it free for 60 days through our partner link below.

📖 Try Logos free for 60 days: https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst

Hosted by:
Pastor Darren Rouanzoin — https://www.instagram.com/darrenr
Angela Halili — https://www.instagram.com/angelahalili
Elijah Lamb — https://www.instagram.com/elijah.lamb

#BibleStudy #SpiritualWarfare #ChristianPodcast #Faith #Deliverance #Jesus #BibleStudyPodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hi guys. Hey. Sorry. I don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_04 0:08

This is so bad. Okay, that's gonna be cut. Hey everyone. Welcome to the Bible study podcast. I'm Darren.

SPEAKER_01 0:14

I'm Mann.

SPEAKER_04 0:15

I'm Elijah. Elijah's here. We have this thing going on the board, just so you know. We are rotating this chair. Do you want to tell them what the idea becomes? I'm almost gone. Yeah, you're almost gone.

SPEAKER_01 0:25

That's so sad. We'll have you back though. We'll have you back because you have been such a blessing.

SPEAKER_00 0:29

For the next yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 0:31

We'll just do another series of videos.

SPEAKER_00 0:32

Forever.

SPEAKER_02 0:32

For the next episode.

SPEAKER_01 0:34

Basically, what we're gonna start doing is it's gonna be me and Darren, and we're just gonna bring so many different types of guests on. And we have we're gonna have guests of all ages, of all like avenues of ministry. We'll have pe pastors and leaders, we'll have social media influencers who love Jesus. And yeah, it'll be a wide range of people. And I think it's just gonna be really special to kind of just like cover all the bases with all different types of people.

SPEAKER_04 0:59

I love it.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

You know?

SPEAKER_04 1:00

I love it. And it's gonna be fun. It'll bring a lot of diversity to the conversations. Right. I would love to introduce you to a lot of friends that I have that are like trusted pastors and preachers and thinkers, and then just people that we're walking with, which will be great.

unknown 1:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:14

Yeah, we're some of the people we're gonna have on are like legitimately my I can't call them idols because they're not idols, but like people I really look up to. So I'm gonna be sitting here, like, how am I here with you guys right now? Learning. This is the biggest blessing of my life.

SPEAKER_04 1:28

It's so fun. And this has been great. This series on spiritual warfare, I've enjoyed it. Hopefully, it's been educational and informing for those of you that are following us. A reminder. These podcasts, the spiritual warfare kind of mini-series that we're doing, it's been sponsored in partnership with Lagos Bible app. And they've been uh an amazing resource for us. I've been using them. I think, like I'm not kidding. I think since like 2006, I've been using a variation of it. And I've built a library for what has been eight, 18 years, 20 years. Um, and all of the the stuff we uh I've brought to you has come from commentaries and resources and and theologians and and various ways of studying scripture. And that Bible app makes it so accessible. And they have a 60-day trial on our on our info. You can find it, which you know it by heart race.

SPEAKER_01 2:18

Yeah, you guys can go to logos.com slash Bible study podcast, l-o-g-o-s.com slash bible study p d c s t. And I want you guys to know all my friends on here, like every time I'm studying for Girls Gone Bible, I go to Darren and I talk to him about a passage passage of scripture, a book in the Bible, and all the resources that I get are from Lagos. So it's a trusted, trusted place for you guys to study. And I would really recommend it if you're looking to dive deeper in the Bible, which I know you are if you're here.

SPEAKER_04 2:50

You're listening. So there we go.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:51

Um, all right, we're gonna do another round here.

SPEAKER_01 2:54

Can I ask you a question?

SPEAKER_04 2:55

Yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 2:56

Do you think, right? Because us coming on here to talk about spiritual warfare, we always like whenever we're coming up against the devil like that, he's gonna try and come back at us. And so we experience a little bit of chaos within our own life. Do you think the people watching will experience any resistance by learning?

SPEAKER_04 3:12

Yeah, so here's what I would say. One of the things, I was actually before we started telling uh a story from one of my mentors who passed away in 2022. He was a pastor and theologian, and he had this line, and I mentioned it before, but he said, What's clear in scripture is that whenever you have breakthrough, you'll immediately experience a battle. And you see this in the gospels with Jesus there's breakthrough and there's battle. There's breakthrough, battle. And I think that's how we should anticipate life in the kingdom of God is that the kingdom of God is not pushing forth against a neutral territory, it's pushing back against territory that's been taken by Satan, the kingdom of darkness. So, what I say is like whenever you try to do something good or meaningful, whenever you start moving towards Christ's likeness, it will be met with opposition. And we'll talk about some of those things. Like, there's a devil, there is the flesh that naturally desires things that are not good for you. There's a this corporate structure that Paul will use to frame this thing called the world, which would be like systems and and ideologies working against God's kingdom. So you have a we're gonna talk about this today, oddly enough. Uh, three different battlefields that every disciple is kind of dealing with. So, for example, like, have you ever tried to start a new workout plan? I don't know if you guys or like a diet exercise routine like anyone. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:30

Right now.

SPEAKER_04 4:31

Okay, there you go. So so have you ever like it's like the new year, like you start uh uh, you know, your new year's resolutions, you're like, I'm gonna work out six days a week.

SPEAKER_00 4:38

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 4:38

And then by week two, like you're already stopping. And there's lots of reasons for that because you're you you kind of give in to your habits, like you're you don't break the habits, you don't stay consistent. So anything good, like not eating sugary, delicious treats for a season is gonna be contested. Totally. I think the same is true in the kingdom of God. Like when you're making move movement towards holiness or breaking that addiction, uh, freeing yourself from thoughts of like lies of pride, insecurity, lust, that's gonna be met with you know the anti-kingdom.

SPEAKER_01 5:10

Right. Such a good analogy.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:13

So I feel called out.

SPEAKER_04 5:14

Yeah, I'm not speaking to you, Dress.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

You always are though.

SPEAKER_04 5:17

I feel like I'm speaking to Elijah. I mean, you needed it. You needed it to be. You too, Elijah.

SPEAKER_01 5:22

I love it.

SPEAKER_04 5:23

Well, okay, should we jump in? Yeah, or do you want to give an update on your life? Like, is there anything that you need to share, Elijah? Let people know. You've got two more episodes with us. So do you know that Elijah has another podcast, a Bible podcast called The Archway with uh his pastor, my good friend Jake Sweetman, Pastor Jake of Cathedral Church. Art Archway Bible. Super nerdy. Is it nerdy?

SPEAKER_01 5:47

It's like the nerdiest, but that's the best.

SPEAKER_04 5:49

That makes sense. I know Jake, and I'm not saying Jake's the nerd, he's really cool, but he can nerd out.

SPEAKER_06 5:54

Oh, yeah, and that's what it exists for.

SPEAKER_04 5:55

And I think that's why we're friends.

SPEAKER_06 5:56

Like him and I just nerd out together. It's like we should just throw some microphones in front of this. So we like study for these and we just we've worked through so much of the Bible already. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 6:03

It's so cool. It's how old are you, Elijah?

SPEAKER_06 6:05

I'm 23. 20.

SPEAKER_01 6:07

Did you go to seminary?

SPEAKER_06 6:09

I'm getting my master's degree in theology right now.

SPEAKER_01 6:11

Unbelievable. Your knowledge is absolutely insane. You are so anointed.

SPEAKER_06 6:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:15

Or you're just smart, maybe anointed.

SPEAKER_01 6:17

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:18

Be careful of that one. Just kidding. I'm just kidding. He's anointed. I agreed with him. I was like, guess guess it could be true. Just because, I mean, this is actually really interesting. Just because you're good at something doesn't mean you're anointed.

SPEAKER_00 6:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 6:31

No, yeah. Yes. That was funny. I love it. Yes. Clearly, there's anointing, but also you can operate outside of your anointing. People ask that question actually. People are like wanting to know about anointing next our next episode. We're gonna do just QA. Yeah. Or the whatever the proper responses, or it's questions and responses. People don't like answers. Do you know that?

SPEAKER_01 6:53

Who said that?

SPEAKER_04 6:54

No, there's like a whole thing, and now I'm gonna get all the the thumb warriors coming out, and it's like, I'm like, oh yeah, let's do QA. And people are like, QR.

SPEAKER_03 7:02

What? I'm like, what?

SPEAKER_04 7:04

Like, we can't get answers.

SPEAKER_05 7:05

Answers are too offensive, I think. I'm giving answers. Yeah, there you go. You can give responses. We're gonna do QA. They're just doing QR. I'm doing QA.

SPEAKER_01 7:14

The comments have been so sweet that we don't get any hate comments.

SPEAKER_04 7:19

But the first one we did, you got some hate. I mean, people throw out their conspiracies, but that's totally a lot of love so far.

SPEAKER_01 7:26

Oh my gosh, when they said that, don't do it, Elijah.

SPEAKER_06 7:29

I was just cracking my knuckles.

SPEAKER_01 7:30

When they said that I was part of the Illuminati, I was like, listen, I've had I've had something said about me. That one was new, and I didn't know what to do about it.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

I had to Google it. Like, what are they saying? I had no idea. Episode one was a breakthrough followed by a battle. Yeah. That's right. That's right. Oh, this is fun. All right. Well, I'm I'm gonna jump in. Yeah. All right. So we've we've talked a lot about a lot of stuff, but today the topic I want to talk about is practicing discernment in spiritual warfare. I want to kind of define those three battlefields that we all face as disciples the battlefield of the world, the flesh, and the devil. And then I really want to move from um theory to practice. I I hope I can, with the amount of time we have, I can give you kind of a three different models of deliverance ministry that I've seen. This is some summarized a lot of it from a lot of resources. Uh, Rob Reimer has a book called Soul Care, and he's got seven practices everyone should do. I actually recommend that book. I recommend that resource. It's called Healthy Soul. Oh, I need to do that. Um our church is running through it right now. It's a weekly class we do because we'll we'll take people through Alpha, which is like an evangelistic course that was started at HTB in London, and then we take them through what's called Healthy Soul, and it's so good. You you talk through like forgiveness and work through bitterness, you talk through confession, but it ends with deliverance. And then once somebody goes through that, our church has a group of people that have been trained in deliverance ministry. We won't do deliverance ministry unless they've gone through that course because there's a lot of work. We'll talk about it. A lot of work, people are like, Oh, I just need to get set free of a demon. And we're like, No, you need to get rid of bitterness and unforgiveness, you need to stop sinning. And then, like, we'll see if there's a spirit. So I just think it's far more practical and more tangible that way. So, let me let me just give some uh real practical things. We've walked through the biblical warfare worldview. We looked at the ministry of Jesus. Now I want to make this practical because most spiritual warfare does not show up as like obvious darkness. We're not looking at demons, you know, manifesting in our in at night in our closet. It shows up through pressure and confusion and and patterns that we can't break through. Like we're like, man, I keep trying to change habits, but I can't break through from this thing in my life. And and I also see a lot of warfare, spiritual warfare that that erodes our joy. Uh, it it takes away some of our clarity um and and our our desire for obedience. Like, so sometimes that's warfare. So we need we need to have to practice discernment, which I'll define in a second. But the Bible gives us kind of a very grounded way of recognizing warfare and the different world, um, I'm sorry, the different battlefields we face. Um, and so the three battle fronts that I want to talk about are the world, the flesh, and the devil. So we're gonna start with the devil. And I just thought maybe you could just give us your own perspective. Who is the devil? Hugo. I'm just throwing, I know I didn't prepare him. I just want to see what he don't mess it up.

SPEAKER_06 10:29

Um correct your theology. That's a that's a great question. Uh I don't have a very in intensely specific answer. I think that the devil can be used to refer to as a single spiritual being, but can also be used as a broad umbrella term to refer to all forms of dark, evil spiritual beings. Yeah. Um, so I just say it is the the ominous, real, personal spiritual power that is behind the kingdom which is opposite the kingdom of God. Such a good answer.

SPEAKER_04 10:56

Wow, and and we see like it's almost like a role in scripture, like this accuser role, like he's the serpent, he's the devil, he's Satan. He uh we see Jesus tempted by him in in the gospels when he's doing his 40-day fast. And then we we see Revelation kind of gives a really great account. Like the the phrase John, the writer of the apocalypse, gives is like the ancient serpent, you know, Satan, the dragon who empowers the beast from the sea and the beasts from the earth. And so you see, like there's this this force. Now he's not um omniscient, he's not omnipresent, which what are those words?

SPEAKER_06 11:34

Just can he's not all knowing or all powerful.

SPEAKER_04 11:37

That's right, right? Look at this. This is so great. 23. He's doing great anointed. Anointed, you're so anointed because it just flows, but he has created uh a rebellion, you could say. There's all sorts of texts we've talked through. Ezekiel 28 talks about his pride and self-exaltation, and so does Isaiah 14. Um, Jesus tells us what Satan does. Satan lies, he tempts, he accuses. I think a big thing we overlook is he twists scripture. This is actually a big thing for me. This is why we need good teaching. Like we need biblical preaching and teaching in the world. We don't need, you know, three steps to help me with my anxiety every Sunday. We need biblical teaching that reframes reality so we know truth without error. And I think there's a lot of ways that Satan has twisted scripture that we we think we're actually being obedient to the scriptures when actually it's been twisted in our imagination or through bad teaching. Um, he he's a murderer, it says he lies, that's his foreign language. And I think he he's a he's a thief of joy, a thief of peace, all sorts of things you could say. Um but one of the things that's critical to see is that Satan often shows up not as a uh a role to get you to just disobey God or renounce your faith. That's not what he does. He he he comes at us with like distortion of truth. Like he he he mixes things in with an a partial truth, something that is true, but then he mixes something in and like like we talked about this in Genesis 3. Satan or the serpent would say, Um, did God really say that? Like, is that true? He gets us to question God's character, he gets us to question the goodness of God. Yeah, and I feel like this is how he wins, which is why we talked about this. Paul will say, We are not unaware of his schemes. We know that the devil has schemes working against us. So spiritual maturity does not mean we're obsessed with demons, but it means we we recognize him, we recognize his works, and we live without fear because we know it's gonna come. And I want everyone to know like opposition will come. If you're taking your life with Jesus seriously, if you're you're following him towards the cross, if you're living a life of obedience, you will be met with opposition. And James says very clearly here's how you respond. You submit yourself to God. We talked about this. We resist the devil. And if you resist the devil, it says in James that he'll what? Flee. He'll flee. Wow, you're you've got this, you've got this too. Thank you. So that's what we do. We it's not like we resist to shouting.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 14:12

Like, get behind me, Satan. Although I do do that all today. I'll say it all the time, not today, Satan. Like I'll just that that's fine. But resistance is more like an alignment to God's way. Like, so you don't even know how many battles you won by just being obedient to the scriptures.

SPEAKER_01 14:26

Wow, that's so good. Yeah, I think there's a such an emphasis sometimes on like rebuke, rebuke, rebuke, cast out the devil, but like truly, it's just like quietly taking steps towards Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 14:38

Like, how many accidents have you prevented by being a good driver?

SPEAKER_01 14:43

Right. I'm not the best driver. Okay, that was after the side of my car is completely destroyed.

SPEAKER_03 14:51

That's great.

SPEAKER_04 14:51

Yeah. So, okay. Um, yeah, so that doesn't work for you, but that's a good illustration. You don't even know how many accidents you've prevented by just being a good driver, being observant. And like that's true in the in the realm of the spiritual warfare world, where you are resisting the enemy by just being obedient to scripture, by being faithful to Jesus, like in all seriousness, like showing up to church in the house of God where the word of God is taught, yeah, where there's worship, where there's communion, receive, where there's prayer, where you're realigning your calendar. Like, I mean, honestly, you want to just get people like going sideways. Just have remove the rhythm of being in the house of God on Sunday.

SPEAKER_00 15:30

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 15:30

Do you want to say anything on that? Do you want to go off on that? You just I saw a clip of you talking about this on your socials. Yeah. Something about the need for local church. Yeah. I mean, I believe really.

SPEAKER_01 15:40

I'm really passionate about it.

SPEAKER_06 15:41

I saw a clip of you talking about this.

SPEAKER_01 15:42

Yeah. I mean, I so we went on tour again last year, and it was the first time where I actually considered not going back on tour because for the first time in my life, I was rooted in the local church around community every single Sunday in a little bit, like doing you know, prayer sessions through the week. And I had to like have a meeting with my team essentially to be like, I love tour so much. And I'm genuinely considering that being out of church on Sundays, at least two Sundays a month, is really hard for me. Yeah. And it was like something I really had to take into consideration. And I think being in ministry and like being in itinerant ministry where you travel and you go out and you are away from your home. It was something I really had to consider because I knew how much it would throw me off rhythm, being out of church on Sundays.

SPEAKER_04 16:31

Isn't that interesting? Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 16:33

Yeah, I remember you wrestling with that. You would feel similarly. Yeah. I mean, I think that's important because a lot of people will say, like, well, why do you feel that way? Why don't you just spend time with the Lord? Yeah. And you won't feel like that. And it's like, well, hold on. Like, though we're actually talking about different things. There's a different way for the people of God to experience God when we come and we approach Him together. Right. Like that's just the case. Yeah. Like there is no vision of Christianity in the scripture where anybody is doing it on like an island. It doesn't work that way. And it will never work that way. And then the New Testament just doesn't make any sense if that's possible. Like it just doesn't work that way. So I think even to frame it in this conversation, the way that Hebrews will talk about the local church and specifically the leaders of the local church is that it's their God-given responsibility to watch over and protect your soul.

SPEAKER_05 17:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_06 17:19

Well, so we're in the middle of a conversation about spiritual warfare. The covering and the sort of the guardrails and the protection that defends me and my family from spiritual warfare is the defense I get from being in the local church and being under real or anointed, ordained, spirit-filled leadership. Yeah. Like that is a wall of protection for me and for my family. So you can do all of like the deliverance things and you can walk through this whole podcast. But the fact of the matter is, if you apply all of this to your life divorced from the local church, there the main line of defense that you need, you don't have.

SPEAKER_00 17:51

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 17:52

This is so good. You just sparked so many things because you're also not talking about like a friend who's doing a church in their house because they're disgruntled by someone else's experience at church. And so now they're they're having a Bible study and they're calling it church, but there's not an ordination. There's not like an overseeing community of elders of leaders. It's some guy doing their own thing, which is a big problem today. Like wow, I'm all for the empowerment of like we have house churches, but our house churches are part of or they're overseen by leaders and elders in in the local church. And you have that, like you have an amazing leader as your pastor. I remember talking to you like years ago. I was like, commit to a local church, submit yourself to Jake. I said that to you. Like, watch your life flourish as you plant yourself in the house of God. Literally, what happened. And that's what you did. You like live with him, right?

SPEAKER_06 18:39

I did. Right after that, I we lived together. I ended up being homeless and they took me in and it changed my life, and it changed my wife's life. Like I will never be the same human being because of that. Well, and it's changed Jake. Jake loves you so much. Another shout out to Jake, you're getting all the love. But so it's like that's so like what we get from the scripture, God's vision of the Christian life of church is full of order. So, like, yes, it seems like why is God going out of his way to create these roles of deacons and elders and all these things? It's like there's man, it feels so corporate. Like, oh, why God? Why are you doing that? But God knows that that order, that structure is so protective and so helpful. Satan, on the other hand, so where Paul will say that God is not a god of confusion or disorder, Satan, his whole thing is disorder. So, can I share something? Okay, so good. Okay, this is really cool from the book of Genesis. So the order that God establishes in Genesis for all of creation is that God is reigning and ruling as the king. He has ultimate dominion, but he passes down dominion to Adam, who is a co-heir and a co-region who shares that with Eve, but ultimately, like Adam is the head of Eve, and him and Adam, him, Adam and Eve together reign over the animal kingdom. Yeah. Okay, so check it out. Satan shows up. So Satan is a serpent, he's from the animal kingdom. So now who is now calling the shots? The serpent is calling the shots. So the serpent is at the very top of this paradigm. Who does he tempt first? Eve. And Eve gives the fruit to Adam. So now Eve is ruling over Adam. Wow. And then Adam accepts this ultimately so that he doesn't end up at the bottom of the food chain and he can rule over God. And then there's a curse. Yeah. So the disorder goes from God, Adam, Eve, serpent to serpent, Eve, Adam, God. It's a total reorientation. Totally disorder.

SPEAKER_04 20:09

And what's but what's also also interesting is like if you read Genesis 1 and 2, you have collaborative, intimate relationship. Adam doesn't name Eve, which is which is an exercise, like he's exercising dominion over creation by naming the animals. He doesn't name Eve. Eve doesn't get the name until after the fall. So there's something about like designed collaborative mutual relationship that existed. And then as a result of the curse, there is this authority structure that now remains. And that's a very interesting thing. That's a whole other conversation. Because we could go back and forth on this. But I see it too. And then what happens, just side note, if you follow that all the way forward, Satan actually is the serpent is given the rule over creation, right? And one of the gods, what when you get to like the New Testament, they're they're navigating the dimensions of what the cross is because it's not just perpetuating the wrath of God, it's not just atoning for the sin. There's it's not just conquering death because we're designed to live for eternity in the presence of God as create humans. And in some ways, death as a result of our disbroken relationship is seen as mercy. God's going to find a way to live in in harmony, but it's also the defeat of Satan and the rule of creation that he had goes back to the new Adam, which is language that the New Testament writers have, where now there's a new Adam, and that's Jesus, and he gives it to his disciples, which we we alluded to this. So all of it comes back. It's so beautiful, but it's going back to the importance of being in a local church. Yes. Side note, you said nowhere in scripture is there someone doing like Jesus alone on the island. And it it made me think of John, where actually he was on an island, isolated, writing the book of Revelation. But I just want to highlight this because we have the book of Revelation, because one day, John on the Lord's day, which was Sunday, the day that you do. Church when you're together, but he's isolated on Patmos. And he says, On the Lord's Day, I was in the spirit, meaning he was worshiping and praying. He's doing church all by himself when he couldn't do it because he was a prisoner and he was isolated. Not because he had a podcast and a latte, a honey lavender latte, and with had some friends and he wanted to just have some church by himself. That's not a concept. And then who did he write the book for? The church.

SPEAKER_05 22:23

Seven churches that he started. Let's go. Exactly.

SPEAKER_06 22:25

Did you do church that he passed? He passed. There's no John isn't suddenly like, yeah, I'm gonna do it by myself. Those people are like lesser spiritual people than me, so they'll go be in the church. But I only need me, me, myself, and I to conquer the devil, to conquer the dragon.

SPEAKER_04 22:37

It's so good because actually I feel like this isn't in the notes. This is like a real spontaneous, like real highlight. So we'll get to the notes. This is actually, I think, how Satan, and then I would say using the world and culture, which culture and the world, we'll put that together. Like using structures and systems, narratives, ideologies, media, social media, using these tools, frame an ideology, an idea that is twisted and wrong. And it needs to be called out as a lie. It needs to be challenged. Look, I know not any, there's no church that's perfect. We're talking at a time when there's like, you know, these YouTube podcasters that are going out against kind of behaviors, prophets, and charismatic churches that have done things that are wrong. And we're witnessing, we've just watched this last Sunday, a big church in Northern California kind of explain how they messed up this very specific uh situation. And they publicly repented, they own their mistakes. And so, in a world that's like looking for all these churches that are wrong and all the things that are messing up in the institutionalized church, all the ways we blow it, we can't throw away the church. We have to recognize that that's the enemy's work. Actually, the church is the ordained, called by God, the institution Jesus uses to renew the cosmos, to continue his mission in the world. There's no other plan. That is the plan. That from the beginning, that is the plan.

SPEAKER_03 24:00

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 24:01

And I just want to say like, if you are someone who's like deconstructed, if you've been hurt and you're like wandering off on your own without being a part of local church, I would say you cannot heal from the wounds community caused you without community. You can't follow Jesus and not be a part of the local church. Like that's rejecting his body, it's rejecting the bride. Like, if you were ever like, Oh, I'd love to hang out with you, Darren, I just don't ever want to see your wife, I'd be like, oh, you're not gonna hang out with me. Like, that's that's not gonna work. Like there, there, there is this thing that we have, and we have to just recognize it as the Satan's strategy.

SPEAKER_06 24:35

So it's absolutely his thing to keep people divorced from the family of God. Yes, right? So like our sin has made us orphans, God has planted us in families, the scripture says. Yes. And Satan is like, what if I could find these people who have, as their inheritance, belonging to the family of God? What if I could convince them that they don't want to be there? Yeah, like what if I could make them prodigals? What if I could do that to them? So it's like, of course, that's where he's gonna go because we're we're at our weakest when we are divorced from God's family. And you're so right. The way forward to heal some of these the wounds that people have taken on from their own families or from experience in church, it's it's always gonna be exposure therapy. Yeah, it's always gonna be getting into really good, healthy community and being healed through being uncomfortable. Well, that's what happened to me.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

And I would say recognizing there's no perfect community.

SPEAKER_06 25:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 25:20

If you're like, like the idea of an ideal relationship or an ideal community is just that's another lie. Like the people who will hurt you are the people that are are the closest to you. They will cause the greatest wounds. Always, that will always be the case. So, not being naive, learning to have boundaries, learning to recognize everyone's gonna have a fault, they're gonna make mistakes, you're gonna get disenchanted with this new community that you planted yourself in. Stay through the disenchantment, yeah, commit to it over a long period of time and watch yourself grow. My closest friends, like I have a church where almost 18 years, and we started a church with three people, it's grown. My closest friends have been here for 17, 16, 15 years. They're in our church. Some of them are elders, board members, leaders, some of them are on staff. We travel together, we do life together, we've been on vacation together, we've raised kids together. We've had so much conflict.

SPEAKER_00 26:09

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 26:10

We've had so much conflict, we've had massive, we've had wounds that we've wounded each other. I've had my closest friends have called me out saying, Darren, this hurt when you said that. I've had to listen to them say you've done this over and over again. And but that's community. And I am who I am because of those people, because I have that. And so, anyways, this is a free it's so good. This one we should just stay here for a little bit because it's it's real. This is what people do.

SPEAKER_01 26:32

It's so important. It's just so important. I mean, all I hear, you know, within all the comments that I get and what I hear from the people that watch us is just like, I don't know how to get rooted. I don't enjoy people are just so critical of their churches as well. I think they see church online or they see pastors that they idolize and they're obsessed with, and then they go to their local church and they're like, this just doesn't feed me. This just isn't, and they can have like all different types of concerns. And yeah, so I think what I've tried to express to people so much is just stop being, of course, like be discerning of the church you're in and and have non-negotiables of like you want, you know, sound theological teaching and you want good worship, not like good as in good, like you want worship, but I just think so many people are so critical because they see these big churches online and they get this ideal in their head of what church should be like. Yeah. And so I always just advise people every church has its issues and has its strengths, but just commit, you know.

SPEAKER_04 27:33

Yeah, I mean, I think that that's the what's happened in our culture, the church culture, is we've taken consumerism and we've applied it to the church. So now the church is a product, community is a product, it's like a subscription. So if if it if it fits my calendar, if it works for my schedule, if I like what I'm receiving, I'll subscribe and pay the fee. And then I'll I'll opt out as soon as it doesn't really like I don't have control, it doesn't fit my schedule or whatever it is, my preference.

SPEAKER_00 28:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 28:01

And that concept is straight demonic.

SPEAKER_00 28:04

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 28:04

Because it the church is is anything but a consumer product. The church is is the body of Christ, it is is the bulwark of truth, it is the house of God, it is the new temple, it is the it is a force of of renewal for the world to see. It is the resurrection project project that God initiated through the resurrection of Jesus. Wow. And it's been bought for by the blood of Jesus. So we don't yelp it, we don't shop it, we don't judge it, we don't get to do that. We are a part of it. Yeah, and we need to be a part of it. We need to, we need to transform it, absolutely, but sit in the pews while it's being transformed, while we're a part of it. And and I would say, like, look, we want to be a part of a biblical church. We want to be a part of for me, like I have convictions about what the church should be as a lead pastor, but this idea, it's like stick with the community. And because we live in a world where like you can you can now, you know, watch any church because they all have live streams that you have the best teachers in the world at your fingertips. And but the average church in the United States is 70, 75 people. There's like four less than 400,000 churches in the world, and the majority of those are less than you know, a hundred people, like the the anomalies of mega churches. I think there's something like 15,000 mega churches in US. That's it. Um, and you know, that number is it shrinks even more to like 500 or more. Like you're talking about a small margin being like what what the what's become, you know, the norm. Yeah. And people are like, we need faithfulness and obedience, and we need people that really press in and stay. Um, anyways, I can go off because I'm very passionate about this. It's amazing. But one okay, but I'll I'll transition. Like, one of the ways Satan kind of informs us is the the second battlefield is this concept of the world. I'm gonna do that one real quick because there it's not just like external forces of Satan and and powers and principalities, but like we see that the world is like this system, this structure, this culture, you could say, this ecosystem, where where John tells us not to love the world or the things in the world. And he's he's referring to that. He's talking about the systems and structures that are that are working against God's kingdom. And Paul tells us not to be conformed. You have that passage, Romans 12. This is a classic passage. Look at what Paul says in regarding to the world. He says in Romans chapter 12, verse 1.

SPEAKER_06 30:17

Therefore, brothers and sisters, in view of the mercies of God, I urge you to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your true worship. Do not be conformed to this age, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may discern what is the good, pleasing, and perfect will of God.

SPEAKER_04 30:34

So Paul says, like, in view of God's mercy, Romans 12 is a transition moment. So all of Paul's writings and his letters have the indicative and the imperative. So if you read Romans, he's got literally 11 chapters of a lick uh of the indicative. Here's what Christ has done, here's what God has done through Christ, here's who you are. Well, in Ephesians, it's the same way. He does three chapters, and on the fourth, he has this line. And I always tell people in the reading of the Bible, ask the question when you see it, therefore, what's it there for? Well, and and when you get to Romans 12, he has this entire incredible argument for who Jesus is, what what what the state of the world is. And then he transitions, therefore, in view of God's mercy, in view of everything that God's done, the only response that's fitting, the only logical response is to now become a living sacrifice, to present your entire being. Right. So you're like now the image is like you're you are on the altar. Wow. Right. So now, as followers of Jesus, in view of what God's done, now that we we've been saved by grace, all this amazing stuff, our response is to live as a sacrifice. But then he has this line. He says, he says, do not conform to the pattern of this world. There's something happening. The world, this, there's this system, these structures that are influenced by Satan, that are, that are also influenced by by people and governments and nations and thinking and institutions that are opposing God's design. Right? We would agree. There's there's institutions, there's ideologies, there's there's laws sometimes, there's there's belief systems that are opposing God's design for you and creation. And he says, don't be conformed, don't be made in that image. Instead, be transformed by what? The renewing of your mind.

SPEAKER_00 32:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 32:24

And so the world, in other words, what Paul says is the world is discipling us.

SPEAKER_06 32:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 32:29

The world is discipling us. Every, every media channel, it's discipling us based on our view of sexuality, is being formed by this ideology, by these worldviews, by by these systems of thinking, um, by economics, by ambition, by by habits uh that are normalized. Like, I think that's the other thing is like the world will normalize not just beliefs, but habits and say this is normal. And you're like, that isn't normal. But we're being we're learning to how to interact in the world by the default setting we all live and swim in, and that is this world. Like that's to use that word, the culture, society, this this great system. And Paul says the way we battle that battlefront, the way we engage as disciples, we have Satan working against us, and then we have this world. And the way we do that is by the renewing of our mind. Yes. So we talked about taking our thoughts captive. We talk about letting our mind follow Jesus, learning to value the things that Jesus values. This is what we're after right now. And this is one of the ways that um we have to recognize we're all being shaped and bent. I would say we're being deformed. We've used that a lot by this concept of the world. That's another battlefront.

SPEAKER_00 33:41

That is so good.

SPEAKER_06 33:42

If I could just take it back to the local church again. Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. I think sort of what we've expressed a lot with talking about worldviews so far is that, and something I help I try and help people understand is that those things happen on accident. Yeah. Like the way that we think and feel about our lives, our pasts and our decisions, those, you know, those are things that just sort of happen. Like we don't really mean, I think Barnes says that every person has a fully formed worldview by the age of 13.

SPEAKER_03 34:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 34:05

Well, I don't know any 13-year-old who's like going through the tenets of what makes up a worldview and like writing down, like, this is what I believe about that. You know, it's just like sort of happens to us. And the way that we counteract that and the way that we align ourselves with the truth and hear the true competing narrative that is always going against the grain of the world story is by being in a people who are caught up in the plot of that story, who are in the ensemble, who are living that out and who are preaching and teaching and singing those truths. That's how we get reformed is by coming together. Um, if the the world is working together to form its story and to transform us. So it's like, okay, it's not to be, you know, there's this guy in church's streamed Athanasius who taught some really amazing Trinitarian theology, like all about Father, Son, Holy Spirit, in the face of so much of the church going heretical and teaching that Jesus was created. And so this saying Athanasius contra mundum, Athanasius against the world. Because it was just, it really was like just him standing his ground. And that's awesome. You're not Athanasius. Like you don't need to do you versus the world. You you will lose that battle. Yeah, you will absolutely lose that battle. And so one of the things here is when we talk about the world as something that we are sort of butting heads with. Yes, I think that absolutely means you know, big things, like big meta-level things, ideologies and worldviews and all things, but it also is built on the biblical presupposition, the assumption the Bible has that you're gonna have conflict with other people. Yeah, and that's right there from Genesis 3. Like one of the first effects of the fall is hey, Adam, you or Eve, you know, you will just your desire will be for your husband and he'll rule over you. Next chapter, you jump from that to like you'll have marital conflict to fratricide, yeah. Cain murdering Abel. Yeah, and then as the story like develops, you get to Genesis 11 with the Tower of Babel. Yeah, all people are scattered and cannot work together anymore. Yeah. Well, the story of Jesus and what Paul breaks down for us in Ephesians is that the dividing wall of hostility between men has been broken down. This is part of what the gospel is about. So the effect of Satan's work is to divide human beings, the effect of Christ's work is to bring human beings together. And so I think of like when we're talking about people's consumeristic relationship with the church, you know, it's no surprise to me that that's happening when we're in the same world where everyone and their mom is going no contact with their families. Yeah, right. Like we have a broken understanding of community and family, and we've adopted the world's way of doing this things.

SPEAKER_04 36:19

Exactly. You know what I mean? It's such a good point. And that's exactly right. Like, so the battle is not like, okay, we got to protest and win our pe win our way into the world. Like, that's this is this is another tricky thing. Like, I'm all I think the church has a politic. I think the church is political. That's that's a whole other conversation. I think Jesus had politics. There was a right and left perspective. He and he he sides with common perspectives in different places, and that's what you see in the scriptures. But like what we do is we'll hear, like, oh, we're against the world. Paul doesn't say now go and defeat the the ideology of the world, right? He's saying renew your mind so you're not conformed to it. Wow. Because by trying to battle against it, you're just using the world's technique, yeah. Versus what you're saying, like unity, humility, um, embodied transformation. Yes. Like where you you're you're not like another one, like a clear ideology of our world is like sexuality is biological, it's for pleasure. Go and have sex as much as you want. It doesn't matter. There, you don't need commitment. That is, that is, that sets itself up against the teachings of scripture. That's not God's design or desire, right? Sexuality is a good thing. I agree with that in culture. It's designed to be in a relationship between one man and one woman in a marriage, marriage relationship. Yeah, that that embodied is how you resist the world. Wow. Right? You don't have to go around like challenging all the people that are living the world. Like in the church, if you have a relationship with people, yeah, you should call out, uh, call the church out to holiness. Paul will do that. But he's like, I'm not talking to the world out there about that. Of course they're gonna live like this. They don't know Jesus, you know, like that's the reality that we're dealing with. The other part I want to jump into is the the third battlefield is the flesh. And that's Galatians five. Would you? I mean, there's so many passages in this, but the Bible uses this word flesh to describe something that's very real for every single person. It the flesh is not demonic, right? So I just want to make that clear that like Satan can use temptation that pulls on the desires we have of the flesh, but that alone is not it. So will you read this passage in Galatians five, sixteen through twenty-five?

SPEAKER_01 38:29

So I say, live by the spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh, for the flesh desires what is contrary to the spirit, and the spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the spirit, you are not under the law. The acts of the flesh are obvious sexual immorality, impurity, and debauchery, idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions, and envy, drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

SPEAKER_04 39:35

Powerful.

SPEAKER_01 39:36

That's a lot.

SPEAKER_04 39:37

Galatians 5, right? And this this is Paul trying to navigate the church that he's writing to in Galatia, that they are dealing with so many specific issues. But he he kind of creates this world where he says there are the desires of the flesh, and the desires of the flesh are contrary to the Holy Spirit. And so the flesh is not your physical body. A lot of people think, oh, it's your physical body. It's not, it's a better phrase would be like the sinful nature. Like flesh would be defined as your sinful nature. And our flesh, our sinful nature, has a disposition towards self-rule. It's like selfishness, selfish desire. And our it's our tendency to put our desires above God's will and God's rule and God's desires for our life. And so I think that's how you got to frame what the battle is. So you have this external battle of the world that's influenced by the devil. You have this opposition of demonic power and temptation, harassment, all these outside forces. But then there's this internal battle where, like, in you, you, you literally have this war that's going between inside of you. If you're filled with the Holy Spirit, if you're a follower of Jesus, there is this battle. And Paul writes about it in Romans. Like he talks about like, I do what I don't want to do. Like he talks about this struggle. And then here in Paul kind of names what you could also say is like the fruit of the flesh, you know, like it's it's sexual immorality, it's greed, it's anger, it's pride, it's envy, it's selfish ambition, which are all characteristics of the world, right? Like we see this playing out. And let me just say, when it comes to spiritual warfare, you don't cast out flesh, you crucify it.

SPEAKER_00 41:25

Yeah, love that.

SPEAKER_04 41:27

Like Romans 6 says, We are no longer slaves to sin. Yeah. He'll say it's been crucified with Christ. And then he'll also in Romans, he'll talk about like the perfect verb, uh tense verb is it's a perfect tense verb, perfect present tense verb, which better translates like the keep on crucifying it. So like it's dead, you've been dead, it's like your flesh has been crucified with Christ. The past, your sin has been crucified with Christ. But the invitation that Paul gives you is to keep on crucifying it with him. It's like there's an activity of like there is this living battle that we have to continue to walk in. Galatians, he simply says, like the strategy is to walk in the spirit, yeah. Right. So Roman 8 says to put to death the deeds of the body. Flesh doesn't need to be exercised, it needs to be crucified.

SPEAKER_00 42:19

Well, and yeah, how do we do that? How do you crucify your flesh?

SPEAKER_04 42:23

So I would say it starts with recognizing that it's sin.

SPEAKER_00 42:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:27

The problem today is the church doesn't want to call greed, gossip, gluttony, envy, pride, jealousy. We don't want to call it sin. Like, we'll call I'm struggling with. You're like, you're sinning. Wow, you're actively participating in sin. And I can I just say there's no Paul never refers to a Christian as a sinner. Like, that's not a definition that he gives Christians. We are saints, we're holy ones. Like when he addresses the church, he calls them whole haggioi, which is this the Greek word for saint or a power wash from the inside out. You've been cleansed because of Christ. Now, with that, he'll say, You are holy, so be holy. Be holy. You don't get to earn your holiness. Christ gives you holiness through the blood of uh sacrifice on the cross. But in the same way, I think we gotta recognize that we have a flesh, we have a battle, we have a sinful nature, and we practice these things that are sinful. So confess it and repent.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 43:25

Before we get to deliverance, there will be a journey of is there any unconfessed sin in your life? So before we begin to work on if someone's gonna go through a deliverance process, that will be in a spiritual inventory to ask the question like, is there unconfessed sin? Do I need to repent from these things? Great, this thing came up. Let's repent and move on. Because once you confess and repent, Jesus has already forgiven you. Let's move on. Now that it's acknowledged.

SPEAKER_03 43:51

So good.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

So oftentimes I think people want freedom without formation, right? They want to be set free, but they won't take ownership of the fact that. Their freedom is in their hands. The key is in their hands. They're locked themselves from the inside. So calling the flesh a demon is a way of avoiding responsibility. Yeah. Wow. So this is where I have a problem in the charismatic world where it's like everything's a spirit. The spirit of anger. No, you just learned inappropriate anger your whole life. And maybe that's been passed down from generations of parents showing you inappropriate anger, but that's not necessarily a spirit as much as it is as a habit in a worldview that needs to be challenged as sin. You know, anger is not a sin, but inappropriate anger is a sin. Or whatever it is, like the spirit of this circumstance. Oh, get behind me. Like, no, that's not a thing. Like you, you you don't have a spirit, you have an emotional eating problem. Like you don't have a spirit, you know, you have problems with following through with your commitments. Like that's what's going on.

SPEAKER_00 44:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 44:48

And we don't need to cast it out. We just need to follow through and with our yeses. You know what I mean?

SPEAKER_06 44:52

So good, absolutely. So I just think like I go back to what you've already sort of prescribed, which is walking in the opposite spirit. Yes. So instead of could because if it is a spirit, it's something that just needs to get off of me. And once it's gone, I'll be all better. That's exactly what I'm saying. But if it's sin, if it's me, then I the solution is not okay, God, take this away from me. And when I wake up tomorrow, I'll never deal with this again. It's what are the decisions that the actions I'm going to carry out that lead me to be different? How do I actually live? This is sort of the way that I think about it for my life is who am I supposed to be living like? I'm going to live like how I how I hope I feel and how I know that I should think, you know. So if I want to be humble, the solution is not, oh, God, make me humble. Yeah. You know, I'm going to pray and ask for humility. But the solution is I got to start acting how only humble people can act. Wow. And that's how you become humble.

SPEAKER_04 45:36

Which would be okay, so you take the lesser seat, you pick up the clothes without being asked. You serve people, you go last, you open doors, you wash the dishes, you you become a servant. Oh, how crazy is that? I got that from Brother Lawrence. That's exactly right.

SPEAKER_06 45:50

It's like reading his like descriptions of stuff he would do because he wanted to stay humble.

SPEAKER_04 45:53

I'm like, right, a prideful person could never do that. Or if, like for me, like learning patience. My what my pastor, Pastor Bill, um, who was my professor, he was like, Oh, you want to learn patience and self-control. Drive the speed limit, take the slowest lane.

SPEAKER_00 46:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 46:08

Wait, don't because like I have to do that.

SPEAKER_00 46:10

I go, I go.

SPEAKER_04 46:11

That would be good for you, just in general. We hope that you're only going to speed limit. There's not a spirit in the car accident thing.

SPEAKER_01 46:18

I actually can't believe this right now. That's such a good practice. I don't have patience. And if you see the way I drive, like God forgive me. I cut people off. I like will do whatever. I drive in like the lane that's not a lane, so I could just like get in front of people. This is so I would confess it as sin.

SPEAKER_04 46:36

I would confess it as sin.

SPEAKER_01 46:38

Are you kidding me? Yeah, no, I'm I'm like confessing bad driving as sin.

SPEAKER_04 46:42

Not bad driving. That's evil. Like it's what is it? It's selfish, it's ambition, it's selfishness, it's flesh. Like, what is the flesh saying? Me getting to my point appointment is more important than the safety or the the the people around me. So and I okay.

SPEAKER_01 46:56

You know, that's how you do it.

SPEAKER_04 46:57

Yeah, so what would how would Jesus drive? Yeah, like but this is exactly like how would he talk about how would he comment? Like, I think about all the people that are commenting these things, like they know everything. Like, like when I was, I was like, man, as a preacher, this is so funny. Like you're I'm studying hours to to preach the sermons, right? And then I would get these comments from people who like took, you know, that watched one YouTube about something, and they're like all of a sudden an expert. And I'm not challenging anyone, but I'm like, I'm like, bro, like I'm I'm devoting my life to something. Yeah, and you've been a Christian for 30 minutes and watched one YouTube and think you're gonna correct someone, like, like just give it some time, like come into it, be humble, like learn. And I'll that's not like to say I can't take that feedback. I'm not saying that at all, but I'm saying in this world that we live in, like we think we have access to say anything. It's like, man, put your head down, go to work, do everything like Jesus would if he were you in that situation. That's that is Christianity, little Christ Christ.

SPEAKER_06 47:56

And that is how you get victory over the devil. And that's sort of the story of Ephesians is like the way we conquer Satan is through apparently mundane, every day, inconsequential, teeny tiny, but truly sincerely difficult decisions. Yes, like just choosing to do the right Christian, godly stuff every time.

SPEAKER_04 48:13

And also when you when he does talk about spiritual warfare, he talks about like the armor of God, which we've talked about. But what is what is the active advancement in Paul's Ephesians context in Ephesians chapter six? He's like, All right, put on the helmet of salvation, put on these the sword of the spirit. He says, stand firm. Yeah, like we're not taking ground, we're standing firm on the ground he took.

SPEAKER_00 48:37

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 48:37

Oh so like like that whole illustration is like I'm gonna charge and cast out. And it's like, no, no, no, no, no. Jesus is charging and you're following him, and you're just gonna stand firm on the ground he's got he's the one that got us there. Like all of us to be like, all right, I'm gonna go now. Like, come on, hold on, hold on. Yeah, and and like, yeah, and like what should I do? I'm ready for war. Yeah, love your wife. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be your father and mother, stay humble, wash dishes, serve your neighbor, drive slow. Totally.

SPEAKER_00 49:11

Stop gonna go.

SPEAKER_04 49:13

Like, I go to the supermarket and I I am so efficient. I'm a yeah, I'm so efficient. I'll like I'll my brain can calculate in nanoseconds the fastest line. So I have to willingly choose the slowest line.

SPEAKER_01 49:26

Do you actually do that?

SPEAKER_04 49:27

You actually not always, but okay, like this has been a practice in my life where it's it's and that's that's spiritual discipline. What is a spiritual discipline? It's exactly this. It's not like, okay, I'm gonna fast and pray for that. That's a spiritual discipline for hours and days. It's in my everyday life choosing to position myself in ways that are unnatural. It's not natural for me to go slow. It's very natural to be efficient and fast and to align myself with what God's forming in me. I'm not putting this out there. Everyone has to do this. God is forming Christ-likeness in me. I struggle with patience, I struggle with self-control, I struggle with inappropriate anger. So God is causing me to like with my kids, like they're telling a long story. I'm trying to get out the door. I don't interrupt them. I let them finish their ridiculously long story as I'm late for a meeting. Wow. Because I'm learning patience. I don't learn it by not being around anyone. I learn it in the context of my life to choose to do what Christ would do. Right. Even when it feels unnatural, so that eventually it will be natural.

SPEAKER_01 50:27

So good. One of my biggest, um, one of my biggest struggles other than bad driving is I just my justice meter is so high. Like, and I I love I love, you know, telling the truth and getting justice and having everybody on the same page. And it was leading to so much offense in my life. And I was in these situations and friendships and like community situations where I was like getting offended all the time. And I had this thing in me that was like, you are wrong, right? Like you're wrong. And I need to tell you why you're wrong, and I need you to understand me. And I listened to Katherine Coleman. She had this teaching on offense and like surrendering offense. And she said, like, you have to wake up every day of your life and surrender the right to be offended, and surrender the right to defend yourself and surrender the right to be right. So I would get down, this was last summer. I would get down on my knees every single day and say, Lord, I surrender the right to be offended today. And I would like actively say these things, come into agreement with them, and then be met with the situation, and then have to do what you're saying, which is I would then have to like I'm gonna choose to try and understand this person, even though I know I'm right. That's right. I'm gonna choose to focus on what this person needs. And eventually God is gonna do what God does, and he's gonna get, he defends me. I don't need to forfeit his defense to defend myself. That's right. And so, yeah, that's that was a way that I really began to crucify my flesh last year.

SPEAKER_06 51:58

That's really beautiful because it gets centered on the person in front of you. Yeah. And I think that's the advice we get from Paul. There's there's one thing that Satan cannot do, Philippians chapter two, consider others more important than yourselves. Right. Satan can't do that. Yeah, he cannot, he'll never do that. He can't get in that territory, he can't get in that zone, you know. That's so good. Like, and so if we choose to make the kinds of decisions that show that we value other people as being more important than ourselves, totally it's like whoa, you're you exactly invincible.

SPEAKER_01 52:22

That is so good.

SPEAKER_06 52:23

So good.

SPEAKER_01 52:24

So good.

SPEAKER_04 52:25

Okay. So I for the sake of time, I just want to talk about what we need because some situations will require repentance, some will require resistance, standing firm, some will require like renewal, and some situations require deliverance. And this is why we need spiritual discernment, wisdom in these situations to apply what where we are with what we're dealing with. Like there are things that require deliverance, and that's what we've been talking about with spiritual warfare. So uh deliverance is the process of setting someone free of spiritual opposition or someone who's been demonized. And again, we've talked about the categories of demonization, everything from temptation to harassment to serious oppression to demonization, someone you know, in demons coexisting inside to possession. So we have those categories, we're talking through that. I want to share kind of three categories that I've experienced in ministry and I've studied uh from this is kind of summarized from Dr. Gary Bashir's. He's one of my friends and mentors. He's um got uh his website has all of his content, it is free and available. So if you want to learn more, we'll put that in there. Um, also, there's books that are recommended in Logos. We've we've have this library, and some of those are in there. There's a book by Michael Heiser called Demons, there's Soul Care by Rob Reimer, all these things you can get on Logos, and then you can just do this work. But the three primary models of deliverance, I want to read this. Can I do that real quick? Please. Um, there's three models, and I'm just gonna name them. There's what I'll call the gospel encounter, there's the power encounter, and then there's the truth encounter. There's three kind of different ways that I've seen deliverance ministry practice in different contexts. The gospel encounter is basically like preach the gospel and apply the truth. This exists in like really heavy gospel-centered churches uh where they might not even have a belief in the ministry of the Holy Spirit. But the idea behind this is the spirit comes inside of a person. And um, if the spirit comes inside of you, demons cannot come inside of you. So their primary assumption is that the Holy Spirit and demonic spirits cannot occupy the same person. We've talked a little bit different on that on this podcast. They they believe deliverance is fundamentally happens in conversion or through the process of sanctification, and that spiritual freedom will flow primarily through people believing and applying the gospel truth. So there's some scriptures associated to this. First John chapter five, verse 18. He who is born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one does not touch him. There's a bunch of other passages I could list, but for the sake of time, I just want to give you an overview to get to my kind of philosophy. But the typical ministry practice is just to preach the gospel clearly, get people to repent and believe in faith, to teach the scripture. That's the only way you can renew your mind and avoid direct engagement with demons. That's what you do. What this model gets right is it's got the strong confidence in the finished work of Christ. It protects people from obsessing over demons, it emphasizes holiness and discipleship, it corrects kind of the fear-driven spirituality that's in this world, and it guards freedom in truth, not a technique. But what this model doesn't account for is Jesus casting out demons who are covenant people. Um, the command to test spirits in the New Testament, Paul's warning that the devil can get a foothold inside of inside of you through anger and other things. It does it lacks categories for like trauma-linked spiritual oppression. Like that's a real thing. There's trauma-linked spiritual oppression. The persistence of kind of torment people being tormented that are strong believers, like so we know that this can this model can unintentionally shame people without helping them find freedom.

SPEAKER_00 56:13

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 56:13

So the risk of this model is that you can still struggle, and what's being told is that you don't believe the gospel enough. So that's that's the gospel encounter. Um, people are gonna have questions. Throw us your questions. I'm happy to answer them. The second model is the power encounter, and this is like the break ground and cast out the spirit. You know, Christians can be demonized, they believe. Uh, demons can gain influence over your life through doors, they through sin, through trauma, through curses, through alcohol, through drugs, through agreements. Deliverance in the power encounter usually requires identifying and removing the ground that's been given and then commanding that spirit to leave. Uh, the theological assumption is that demons operate legally, uh, not randomly. Like they've been given legal access to somebody, uh, unintentionally or intentionally. This can come through sin, trauma, curses, where the demons are given kind of ground in your life through those things. Deliverance in this kind of context must be direct and authoritative. And usually it's Jesus' authority that's exercised verbally and decisively. There's lots of scriptures for this. Ephesians and 2 Corinthians Mark talks about this. Um, but typically when this kind of model is practiced, it's they're commanding demons to manifest in the person. I've seen all of these, by the way. Yeah, they're asking questions about the demons' names, about the ground. They're asking questions about the hierarchy, like, where are you in this? They'll lead that person to renunciation and confession. They'll usually break curses off people or ungodly agreements, and they'll command spirits to leave in Jesus' name. So there's a bit of this in the teaching we did on the ministry of Jesus and deliverance. What this model gets right is that it takes Jesus' authority very seriously. It recognizes spiritual ground and legal access. It explains why some struggles are persistent even when we have faith. Wow. And it matches the gospels and the and the book of Acts narrative. Like, this is what you see Jesus do. And oftentimes in this model, you see dramatic and rapid freedom. Like in the power encounters that I've experienced, like things have lifted off people. And I'll say depression, anxiety, sickness, ongoing struggles. I've seen people who have had addiction that have been related to uh generational curses or demons, and I've seen that come off. Not everyone, that's like unique. Most of the time it's AA in practice, right? What this struggles with, this model, is it can become mechanical, technique driven. There's a risk of over-attributing problems to all demons, like everything that your problem is is a demon. It can also re-traumatize people. Like that's the danger of deliverance ministry. And it can drift into the spectacular and the spectacle where you kind of be you kind of get obsessed with trying to see demons manifest.

SPEAKER_03 59:05

Totally.

SPEAKER_04 59:06

It also doesn't have like a long-term discipleship mindset. You're like everything needs to get cast out. That's what freedom looks like, versus a long obedience in the the same direction, I would say. The risk as a pastor, I would say, is people may learn how to cast out demons, but not how to follow Jesus. The third encounter for the sake of time, truth encounter, exposes lies and it reclaims identity. So this, so I'm gonna argue for all three to be integrated, right? So but I want to just say the core conviction is that demons primarily work through deception. They have no real authority over believers. They that believers can yield control to Satan and demons through believing lies. And freedom comes through the renewing of your mind, reclaiming your identity, and resisting deception. So the assumption here theologically is Satan's primary weapon is lies, not power, which we would agree. That's clearly uh seen in the scripture. Believers are fully forgiven and transferred into Christ's kingdom. Yep. Demons influence uh collapse when lies are exposed and renounced. Yes, and authority is exercised internally through truth and faith. Lots of scriptures for this. James, John, Romans 12, we just talked about these, Ephesians 1. Yeah. This ministry practice is usually talking to the person, not the demon. So we want to talk to the person that's being demonized, not the person. We identify lies and false beliefs, we lead them to confession and forgiveness and renunciation. We reaffirm identity in Christ. We teach spiritual disciplines and resistance as the way to combat kind of the demons and the ideas. What this model gets right is it deep, it's deeply rooted in scripture. It's all over the place. It's got a strong emphasis on the power of our identity and discipleship. It avoids the sensationalism of the kind of the deliverance model. Totally. It empowers believers to walk in freedom daily and it integrates well with pastoral care and counseling. It kind of works well in this. What it struggles with is that it can underestimate demonic power and the resistance that demons have in our lives. It often is insufficient in severe manifestations. Like you can't just like, as people are manifesting crazy, you're not like, okay, what lies do you believe? There's something else going on. It can also stall when deception is enforced by a spiritual power. So things can get kind of diluted by that. And it can assume uh rational clarity that doesn't always lead to freedom.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:31

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:31

So the risk here is that people may understand the truth intellectually, but still remain oppressed.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:36

And I would just say, in our culture of information where it's like, just give me the right information. There's a WebMD for everything. You know, it could be a cold or it could be like a death, a cancer that's going to kill you in six months. Like that's the reality of WebMD. It doesn't give us a solution for casting out demons. So right?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:53

So what I would like to suggest, those are three primary models out there. If you're looking at deliverance ministry, you can see them all over the place. Different models. There's probably more. I would just say that scripture would push us towards the integration of all three.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:07

Where he proclaims truth, he calls for repentance. Jesus casts out demons, he restores identity, and he disciples us afterwards. There's so many examples of all of them that we should probably integrate all three, which I would argue for. That there are times when we need truth. There's times where we need to take authority. There's times where we need to confess. There's times where we need prayer. There's times where we need healing. There's times where we need discipleship. Scripture doesn't give us one model. I think it argues for all of them and it calls for wisdom. So as a pastoral summary to wrap it up, not everything is demonic, but some things are. Truth matters, authority matters, repentance matters, healing matters, discernment matters, your discipleship to Jesus and formation matters. Deliverance is not a shortcut, it is not a replacement for discipleship, but it is real and it's necessary and it's part of Jesus' ministry. So the goal of this series is not to become, you know, demon hunters, but the goal is to form free people who love Jesus.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:16

I love that. There we go.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:18

I got through all that content.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:20

That is so good. That is so good. Thank you, Jesus. People need this. Nobody has a good grid for deliverance. It just looks like people like throwing up grain on. Yeah. Nickelodeon slime. Yeah, literally.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:32

Which side note at our church, we when we teach people to pray for people on Sunday, we make our prayer people praying, keep their eyes open because there has been times where people have vomit or spit on me because my eyes weren't open when there was a demon manifesting. So true story.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:47

True story.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:48

We train people to keep their eyes open when they're praying for people, interceding on Sunday when we do ministry time because of that. Wow. Or they might fall. So how about that? So this has been great. This has been a good time. The world, the flesh, uh, the devil, looking at models of deliverance. There's so many resources out there. Go to uh look at the links that we provide. Uh Logos Bible app is an incredible resource for you to really dive into the Bible and to study scripture and theology, but they'll have resources available for you on there in regards to these things deliverance ministry, spiritual warfare, all of those things.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:23

And I got rebuked for my driving this whole time. Like that is so wrong. It's so wrong. I'm gonna be better. I'll I'll check in with you guys next time. I'm gonna be better.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:33

Great. Thanks for joining us.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

Thanks, guys. We love you so much. See you later.