Bible Study Podcast

Who Is the Holy Spirit and What Does He Actually Do

• Darren Rouanzoin, Angela Halili

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The Holy Spirit is not a force, not a feeling, and not just a theological concept — He is a person, and He is closer to you right now than if Jesus Himself were physically standing in the room. This episode answers the question who is the Holy Spirit from Genesis to Pentecost, and builds the case for why knowing Him changes everything.

In this episode:
• John 14 — Jesus promises another of the same kind, the Spirit of truth
• The Holy Spirit in the Old Testament: creating order, empowering artists, leaders, prophets, and kings
• Why the gift of the Spirit was limited in the Old Testament and what changed in Acts 2
• Pentecost as the new Sinai — wind, fire, and 3000 saved instead of 3000 killed
• What tongues of fire actually were and the two types of tongues Paul writes about
• Angela on treating the Holy Spirit as a friend she talks to all day
• His mission in your life: to form you into the image of Jesus — in your speech, thoughts, and heart

SPONSOR
This series is brought to you with the support of Logos Bible Software — the tool all three of us actually use when studying Scripture. Whether you want to go deeper in a passage, explore word studies, or dive into commentaries, Logos puts everything in one place. You can try it free for 60 days through our partner link below.

📖 Try Logos free for 60 days: https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst

Hosted by:
Pastor Darren Rouanzoin — https://www.instagram.com/darrenr
Angela Halili — https://www.instagram.com/angelahalili
Ally Yost — https://www.instagram.com/ally_yost

#BibleStudy #HolySpirit #ChristianPodcast #Faith #Revival #Jesus #BibleStudyPodcast

SPEAKER_06

The prophets of the Old Testament are interesting. Those two particulars. Like, well, I mean, you get there and you're like, someone makes fun of Elisha. And 42 kids make fun of him. And then he's like, alright, and two bears come out and ball them to death. I'm like, what is this?

SPEAKER_03

My feelings. I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_06

In the New Testament. Yeah. There'd be a lot of death out there.

SPEAKER_03

You're right. Hey guys.

SPEAKER_06

What's up? On that note.

SPEAKER_03

On that note, I'm Angela.

SPEAKER_06

I'm Darren.

SPEAKER_03

And I'm Allie. And this is the Bible study podcast. And we have our girl Allie here to continue our Holy Spirit series, Clock It. Do you know Clock It?

SPEAKER_06

No. Yeah, I just learned about this. My wife was telling me that like this. And it's like my kids.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Oh, they do it?

SPEAKER_06

No, they don't, but they're they know what it is. I didn't.

SPEAKER_01

I feel like it's more of a girl. It is. It's kind of more of a femme thing. Like if I yeah, if they didn't get it, I was doing it.

SPEAKER_06

I'm not gonna ever do that.

SPEAKER_01

Do that. I would lose my time.

SPEAKER_06

No, I won't do it.

SPEAKER_02

I would lose it.

SPEAKER_06

I'd be out. I'd lose all credibility. I have no reason to do that. I have no reason to do that.

SPEAKER_01

No.

SPEAKER_06

Like in like the thing, the six seven thing was going for so long, and now my kids are like, you can't say it. And I'm like, wow, that was short-lived.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. You can't say what? 6'7. My niece it's over now, or we're like, I will intentionally avoid.

SPEAKER_06

I'm like, maybe it's five to seven.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

I can't even say it anymore.

SPEAKER_01

So I don't even know what any of that means. I want us to be able to get six seven back and it's just like a normal thing again.

SPEAKER_06

You can't, you can't, it's gonna be like two years, five years from now.

SPEAKER_01

I put on my story, my teammate's gonna be a little bit more than a few. Maybe six to seven years. Six to seven years. Okay. They stopped calling it at um In and Out. Did you see that? I know that they will literally skip, they will not call it. I know, they skip they go to 68. Really? Yeah, it's ruined.

SPEAKER_06

I think it's interesting. One thing I want to bring up is the fact that when we started recording today, both of you said, I was like, How's it going? You're like, well, the day's just beginning. And I was like, wow, wouldn't that be nice?

SPEAKER_02

And it's how is your day? And I said, just starting. It's starting. What do you mean? Literally being a little bit of a day. It's like, oh, I've been up since the middle of the night.

SPEAKER_06

Half over. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

I go to sleep too late.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, that's what both of you are saying.

SPEAKER_01

10 o'clock for me. 10. See, that's I used to be like uh 12 to 1 a.m.

SPEAKER_03

or I was I wound down a little bit earlier last night, like 8 30. I started to wind down and I still didn't go to sleep until 11. I go to sleep what's wind down?

SPEAKER_06

Is it like you're in bed scrolling?

SPEAKER_03

Well, right now I'm reading through the presence of practicing the presence. Let's go. Yeah, that's Brother Lawrence. Yes.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, great brother.

SPEAKER_01

Um, so I read that and then I scrolled.

SPEAKER_06

That's right.

SPEAKER_01

I need boundaries to put my phone like physically in another dimension. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

The multiverse.

SPEAKER_01

It can't even be in my house. It needs to be in a different reality.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_01

Because I'll grab it. I know. Anybody else are yet? No, it's an addiction.

SPEAKER_06

You are you are trained. It's it's it's yeah, the most addiction. Work life.

SPEAKER_01

So it's like normal to just be well.

SPEAKER_06

The thing is, your brain is getting a feedback loop. Yeah. Because so many text messages, Instagram comments, like you're like all the all organization.

SPEAKER_03

Right. All my friends are on my phone, you know. I just have to which sometimes makes it hard. I'm like not even that good at answering my friends.

SPEAKER_01

Anyway, guys, we're at the we're at the Bible study body.

SPEAKER_06

But now what we're talking about is the greatest competition to your discipleship, which is not Satan. Wow. It's your phone.

SPEAKER_03

That's so good, Darren. Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_06

I think that's actually important to say. Like, he doesn't need to come after you when you're addicted to a device. So, on that note, let's talk about uh releasing. We can do a whole episode on releasing iPhones, yeah, or like creating new habits. Like, what how do we do that? And why that's important. Right. Like, so I need to. But today I want to talk about first who is the Holy Spirit. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because he is a person. He is a person. That's the first thing. He's a person.

SPEAKER_06

Also, like we people who are out there going, How do I have a relationship with Jesus? Like, have you like Jesus is gone? Like He raised from the dead, He ascended into heaven, he's in this realm called the heavenly unseen realm, right? Like He's present but far. Like how do we have a relationship with Jesus? And I think the purpose of this talk, I'm gonna put some notes here, is to really give us a picture for who the Holy Spirit is and the kinds of things he does from the scriptures, and also recognize that you know it's hard to have necessarily like a relationship with the Holy Spirit because like the King James translation is like the Holy Ghost. Yeah, and that always freaked me out, primarily because you know, horror films and growing up, I'm talking to a ghost. Yeah, you're like what? But that's the translation, so spirit ghosts, yeah. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, do you believe in ghosts?

SPEAKER_06

No, I believe in demons.

SPEAKER_01

Um, that's I mean that's what they are, yeah. When someone right when like if somebody's house is haunted, I'm like, that's just demonic activity.

SPEAKER_06

But then what about when Saul conjures up right the Samuel when he was dead? Yeah, I just read that like two days ago. Like I was like, this is messing me up. There's some great podcasts, like the Exorcist Files, like the book The Unseen Realm. Like, there's some really good things out there that gives you like a theological framework. But I would say there's when you die, you go somewhere, you're going somewhere, you're in the presence of Jesus or you're in the waiting period for the final judgment. Right.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah, because nowhere in the Bible does it say that we get to just like chill because we're not ready to go yet. No, 100%. We don't have that power to just like, no, I'm not right. I have some unfinished business, right?

SPEAKER_06

Which by the way, have you you probably have never seen the series Lost. That was probably you guys were too.

SPEAKER_01

My parents watched it, they loved it.

SPEAKER_06

Your parents that's how old I am, folks. Sorry, I didn't mean to. And that was the best thing. But I would say that's you get to the ending and you've had plenty of time to watch it, and you're like, that's how it's gonna end. This is purgatory. That's so dumb.

SPEAKER_02

How did it end?

SPEAKER_06

It ended terribly. Okay, it was the worst ending of all. It was like the greatest show for years, right? For years, you're just glued to what you couldn't stream anything, you just watch it when it came out, which again, I'm dating myself. But at the end of the day, it ends terribly, it doesn't answer any questions, and it has the worst theology whatsoever.

SPEAKER_03

Was it a Christian show? No, of course not.

SPEAKER_06

Well, there's some Christians writing it, but no, not really Christian. Yeah, anyways, going back to Holy Ghost. You threw me off. Sorry, sorry. All right, so what you were saying, the Holy Spirit is not an it. Yeah, he is a person, he's a personality, he has a personality in the scriptures. Personhood is really important to name. I just want to like clarify because it says in Acts 15, verse 28, that the Holy Spirit speaks, it says that he leads, it says that he can be grieved, like as a person. So also, I I love this. I I've pulled this up yesterday. He is described in Acts 16, verse 7, as the spirit of Jesus.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Or in Romans 8, the Spirit of Christ. So we know there is a way that the Holy Spirit is uh is connected to Jesus and the Father, all of that. So he's a he's he's a personal God, he's he's unique. And the question I always get from people, maybe not as they they move this direct down this direction, is what kind of personality? And I mentioned this in a previous episode, but I just wanted to read it. John chapter 14. If you want to grab your Bible, you can go there. But I thought I would just read a couple of verses real quick. Can we do that? Yeah. So John chapter 14, start in verse 15. He says, If you love me, I'll let you guys get there.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, sorry.

SPEAKER_06

No, let's go. I'll pull it up on here.

SPEAKER_00

I really liked the book of John.

SPEAKER_06

You do, yeah. Oh my gosh. Tell me why. Why do you like John?

SPEAKER_00

Well, just look. I don't, I mean it's a good one. Oh, you have your you got a lot of highlights.

SPEAKER_06

What's your favorite? Which one is your favorite gospel? You said you started in Matthew. Yeah, so Matthew is John. John, yeah. John is the one for me. I haven't ever preached through John because I have a rule that I can't preach what I'm doing in my devotional life. So I'd have to give up reading John as my devotional gospel in order to preach it. And I don't know if I'm ready yet. So that's a whole other story.

SPEAKER_03

You just keep going through John?

SPEAKER_06

I read John all the time because it's the most mystical, and I love it. So, what did I say, verse 15? Yeah. Something like that. I no longer call you servants. Am I in the right place? No, John 14. Sorry. John 14, verse 15. Verse 15. If you love me, keep my commands, and I will ask the Father, and he will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever. The spirit of truth. Yes, the world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him, but you know him. For if he lives with you and will be in you, I will not leave you as orphans. I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me because I live. You also will live. And then go down to verse 25. It says, All this I have spoken while still with you. But the advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and remind you of everything I have said to you. Peace I leave with you. My peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

SPEAKER_03

Oh how are we doing with that? So good. I love it.

SPEAKER_06

There are passages where I'm like, just push play, it preaches itself.

SPEAKER_03

It preaches itself. Right. I just love that the Holy Spirit is the spirit of truth in a world where we are actively like I feel like so much of the Christian faith is a battle between lies and truth. Yeah. It's the truth of Jesus or the lies of the world or the flesh or the devil. And I just love that we can call on the spirit of truth to reveal everything to us.

SPEAKER_06

I love that. I love the words in here. It says he's a counselor or comforter and encourager. And the word another, I said this a previous episode, is there's a the word in Greek for another of a different kind. And then there's a word for another of the same kind. So when Jesus says, I'm you know, gonna send another, it's the same kind. So the Holy Spirit is just like Jesus. Wow. And his purpose is to form people in the image of Christ and does the work of teaching us. Like, you know, Jesus will say it in later on in John, like, I have so much to tell you, but I can't tell you right now. And it's like he has this freedom to leave because he knows the Holy Spirit's gonna come and remind us and teach us of all the things that Jesus taught.

SPEAKER_03

I love him.

SPEAKER_06

So when the spirit, when he, the spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. So when we do like a survey of what the who the Holy Spirit is and what he does, oftentimes there's a dis distinguish um difference between the old and new testament. So I thought we could just frame that as we talk about who is the Holy Spirit. What has the Holy Spirit been up to in the Old Testament? So I want to just make this clear that we see the Trinitarian perspective from Genesis to Revelation. And when you open scripture, go to Genesis one, you see the activity of the Holy Spirit. I just want to show the activity through like a quick Old Testament survey. Is that all right? Yeah. Verse one. So it's the beginning. In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the spirit of God was hovering over the waters. So Genesis one, we see that the Holy Spirit is present and active in creation. Something about the Holy Spirit is participating in the creative act, right? So it that word is uh, you know, hovering is like a mama bird flapping her wings over a nest of baby birds. And it's like the spirit of God is this divine active energy that is present in creation because it's about to be like unleashed. God is gonna speak this raw cosmic power through, you know, speech. Let there be light, let there be land, let all this stuff's gonna start happening. And the spirit is present in the activity of creation.

SPEAKER_03

So cool.

SPEAKER_06

So we see that one of the roles of the spirit is bringing order out of chaos. So we see this all throughout the Old Testament and the New Testament. So, for example, I'm just gonna jump there. But in the Old Testament, we see creation is an act of ordering chaos, correct? So, any of you good at organization or no?

SPEAKER_01

It depends on what it is. I think yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06

I'll say we're gonna say that's a maybe. Um I have I have a friend, one of my friends, John, he's a pastor at our church. His wife runs a uh like organization, like personal organizing company. And like I I can organize, you know, like I have those drawers that are a mess, but then I can get organized. My wife's very organized, but like my friend Lydia, she has a supernatural gift of organization. Wow, yeah, like she gets hired by all sorts of people, like redesign, garages, houses, all that stuff. And such a gift, and it's such a gift, like, but you see that in scripture, like Bezael, they the first person to experience the Holy Spirit, be empowered by the Holy Spirit in the scriptures is an artist for the sake of building the tabernacle.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_06

So that's the first person in the first person mentioned of being being empowered by the Holy Spirit, not filled, empowered by the Holy Spirit is an artist for the sake of building the tabernacle. So cool. And then we see in Acts, we see the Holy Spirit is used to equip seven men uh for the role of waiting on tables for um widows who are having an issue with complaining against each other. So the apostles say, you know, let's, you know, we can't neglect the word and we can't cannot neglect the ministry of prayer. So let's raise up seven men who are full of the spirit and wisdom, yeah, and we'll give them this administrative task. So the Holy Spirit empowers administrative gifts of organization order. I just want to highlight that. So like that is part of the creativity of God and creating order out of chaos. You could say that's like from the beginning of time. That's what happens. We can get organized in order. So if you're struggling, ask for the Holy Spirit to give you order.

SPEAKER_03

Yes, make your bed. Well, even that too, but even emotionally, relationally, I feel like that's God's intention for our lives. Anything that's out of order, he's a God of order, he wants to organize and bring things to their rightful place.

SPEAKER_06

That's actually really good. So, what happens when the counterfeit spirits, the the unholy spirits come? Like when you see activity of demonic presence, I would say there's often chaos, confusion, and disorder. Yes. Not always, it's not always that could just be like you're lazy, but it also could be uh a spirit, an unholy spirit bringing about chaos and disorder. What it's the anti-spirit, it's the anti-kingdom. And so that's often how you can address those things and see, oh, there's confusion here. Lord, bring your presence and bring order.

SPEAKER_01

Well, and where there's order, there's peace. Yeah, he's a God of peace. And so when I think of like disorder and chaos, it's like there's such a lack of peace in those environments.

SPEAKER_06

That's really that's really good. Not control, but order.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, right.

SPEAKER_06

And there is Genesis one is created order, and then and then you get to Genesis two, and we see the Holy Spirit show up again in Genesis two, verse seven. Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being. So God breathes life, his own life, into humans and makes a human being. And that word for breath is ruok, which is um breath, wind, and spirit. So that's a Hebrew word ruok, and the the Greek word for it is pneuma. So you'll see the the counterpart is in in the New Testament, pneuma, and that means breath of life. So, so again, what do you see in Genesis? God creates life by breathing him his spirit into mankind, and that's how he creates humanity. And then if you I just love the connection. When you go to Genesis chapter two, when the Holy Spirit comes and fills the church, it's the Spirit of God that breathes life into people and brings about the new created order, the new church.

SPEAKER_03

In Acts 2.

SPEAKER_06

In Acts chapter, what did I say?

SPEAKER_03

Genesis. Gosh, Acts 2.

SPEAKER_06

So Genesis 2 and Acts 2 are connected.

SPEAKER_03

Wow, that's so cool.

SPEAKER_06

So there's a deep connection to you know, lifeless, you know, body becoming a living body through the spirit of God, a group of people that are trying to figure out how to follow Jesus now become the church and take on this global mission through the Spirit of God indwelling. So it's the same thing, Old and New Testament. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_03

I love my there's nothing I love more than the connection between the Old Testament and the New Testament. I am a geek.

SPEAKER_06

There's so much so much, so cool. And that's what I love. I love like connecting the dots with all this. Like at some point, I want to do like a very long series on Genesis one and two and three, because those are so pivotal for all the things we experience in life. But when it comes to the things of the spirit, what you have to recognize is that the spirit in the Old Testament is uh very clearly empowering specific people for specific purposes at specific times. That's that's how I identified how the Holy Spirit is operating in the Old Testament. So you see, like prophet Elisha or Elijah, a leader like Gideon, or a king like David, a priest like Samuel. There's some a wise man in Proverbs, and then there's the artist in Exodus. And all of it is like act the activity of the spirit is like limited to specific people for specific purposes at a specific time. It's kind of like Popeye. If you ever saw Popeye, you probably never saw it.

SPEAKER_02

I've seen Popeye Spinach Spinach. I'll say it again. My dad, though.

SPEAKER_06

Probably closer to him. Um, so that's the thing. And and the reality is like that's why David will say, you know, in Psalm 51, take not thy Holy Spirit from me, because uh it wasn't like this indwelling that took place, it was this empowering four moments at times. And there is in the Old Testament like this promise of a one day God's gonna do a new thing. And when you follow that around, you see that uh God is not just dwelling with his people in the way that it's fulfilled in the New Testament. There's like this longing that is presented in the Old Testament for what God desires. And what God desires is to walk with his creation again, like in Genesis 3, to be intimately connected. And and that will ultimately come because Jesus died on the cross, raised him from the dead, but the the giving of the Holy Spirit, where God once once again dwells within creation. And it says in Jeremiah 31, God said, uh Jeremiah writes, one day God says, I will put my law in their minds and write it on their hearts. So in the Old Testament, the prophets kind of envision this future where the Old Testament law and the commands will one day not be on tablets of stone, but will be pressed into the hearts of people. And it's Ezekiel who gives us this clue in Ezekiel chapter 36. Again, we're in the Old Testament. Ezekiel 36, he uh God says, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you. I will remove from you a heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. I will put my spirit in you and move you to follow my decree decrees and be careful to obey my laws. And then Joel 2 foretells a time when the spirit will no longer just be preserved for specific people, regardless of sex and age, gender, background, and race. He says, At that time I will pour out my spirit on all people. Your sons and your daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions on my servants, both men and women, I will pour out my spirit in those days. He promises a time when God's presence would be with his people again. I just, my heart gets so overwhelmed when I read these passages because I have been pastor for so long, and I've walked with so many people that have hearts that are hurt and callous, not because they wanted them that way, but because of pain and trauma and heartbreak, divorce, breakup, you know, life that's filled with ashes of a, you know, the death of a dream. And I know the promise of God is He will give you a heart of flesh. He will, He will redeem that callous heart, He will turn it into a heart of flesh. And and how does He do that? Through the Spirit. And this is my experience. Like I have experienced lots of pain. I've seen betrayal and all these things, and I've seen all these people experience these, but I know this is the work of the Holy Spirit. And he promises it in the Old Testament that one day he'll do that.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_06

Isn't that amazing?

SPEAKER_03

When in Ezekiel, when he when God says, I'm gonna pour out my spirit on all people, do you think they knew what that would look like? Did they have any, were they able to conceptualize like because what there in the Old Testament, did they experience the presence of God the way that we do now? Like the glory of God, the manifest presence of God.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I mean, well, we have limited understanding of what that looks like in in the New Testament, the descriptions of the glory, the theophanies, like the physical descriptions of God coming. So you go to let's go to Ezekiel, uh uh Exodus 19. Exodus 19, the law comes down, right? So, so there they they uh Moses says, consecrate yourselves, come up to the mountain. God descends with smoke and fire and earthquake and wind and lightning. That's called a theophany. It's like the physical manifestation of the glory of God experience. So that was terrifying. And people say, like, we don't want to talk to God. Yeah, Moses, you go talk, right? And Moses meets face to face, and then he comes down the mountain. What does it describe his physical attributes as his face is glowing?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, like the sun.

SPEAKER_06

Like when you get in the presence of God, there's a radiance to you, right? So that's fascinating. Then go fast forward to Acts chapter two, 300 years later, or 400 and something years later, I think it is, after Ezekiel writes this prophecy. It's like 450 years later, 480 years. It doesn't matter. I'm I'm freaking out over the time. I like numbers and it matters to me. But anyways, 400 and something years later, Pentecost happens. The day of Pentecost happens in Acts chapter 2. And how does Acts describe, I'm gonna go there, forget it. Go there. How does Acts, how does Luke describe what happens on the day of Pentecost? When the day of Pentecost came, everyone was together. This is verse one, chapter two. They're all together in one place. Listen, suddenly a sound like the blowing of a violent wind, Exodus 19, came from heaven and filled the whole house where they were sitting. They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. All of them were filled with the Holy Spirit. They began to speak in other tongues as the Spirit enabled them. And then it lists out these places where God-fearing Jews from literally every nation. It's like if you look on a map of the locations, it's Jerusalem is here. And then it's basically a giant circle of all these nations surrounding Jerusalem. And so what you have right here is on the day of Pentecost, you have a sound like loud blowing of a trumpet. That's the image, which you read in Exodus 19. Violent wind, that's Exodus 19. Fire, that's Exodus 19. This is the theophany. This is a new, a new day of Sinai when God brings the law. And if in case you're not sure that this is the new Sinai, in case you're not sure of the coming age of the Holy Spirit, at the end of Acts 2, it says, 3,000 people are saved. Well, when the law came down in Exodus 19 and they're getting the Ten Commandments, what happens? Will the people of God rebel? They worship a golden calf and God kills 3,000 people. So it's the exact reversal. It's just all this is happening in one passage.

SPEAKER_03

Can I ask you a question? Because every time I read this, I have this question I know everybody does. Explain to us the tongues of fire.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I'm so glad you said that because I was also in like a debate with somebody that I love and care so deeply about. Um, and they were like, No, it's not who you think actually. It's not who you think, actually. And they have a hard time grasping and/or they feel like they're kind of teetering on like the reality of like tongues being a thing, more so leaning towards they don't believe in tongues, in tongues. And I I brought them to this verse and what they're grasping is they're like, yeah, but it says that they were speaking in other languages that they shouldn't have known, but other people understood. So please explain tongues of fire.

SPEAKER_03

So okay, so and just explain what does that verse mean? What did that look like? I feel like when people read that, what is that?

SPEAKER_06

One, I just think as a Bible teacher, like we needed to like say that's so weird.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, cool.

SPEAKER_06

Okay, like if you're like, wow, tongues of fire, that would be the weirdest worship gathering I've ever been in, where it's like, come, Holy Spirit. And I'm like, uh, I'll grab fire extension. Yeah, I'm like, there's a tongue, like what how would you know it's on fire on top of your head?

SPEAKER_01

Like, is it literally? Are we taking it literal like that?

SPEAKER_06

Well, I'm saying, no, it's not literal, it's a manifestation of his presence. I think it's literary. Luke is making a point. Go ahead. Um, I think it's it's the the manifestation. Like, have you ever felt extraordinary peace where you wanted to lay down in a worship gathering? I have. Have you ever felt a heaviness of the Lord? What's the the word for glory in the Old Testament is also the word for heavy. So if the glory of the Lord's felt on you and you feel like a weightiness, that's the glory of the Lord in the Old Testament. That's what it meant. And so you're like, okay, you're pressed down. There's plenty of ways to describe the presence of God as fire. That's clearly what he's described about. Like the prophets of Baal, the fire of God comes down on Mount Karma when Elijah prays and you know the defeat the prophets of Baal and Assara.

SPEAKER_03

It's my favorite.

SPEAKER_06

That's uh yeah, Kings, first Kings 19. So you have you have all this stuff going on, but okay, what let's let's break it down. There's the physical, the the manifestation of God's presence, right? So wind, fire, cloud, those are those are manifestations, the descriptions of things. This is an event, uh a significant event that has serious implications. I I taught this at Garden. I did a whole like four weeks on Acts chapter two. And the rabbis said in in rabbinic writing, we have ancient rabbinic writing that believe that when the Torah was was written down for the Hebrews, that it went out to 70 different languages, that it was like a tongue of fire went out to 70 different languages. So in the Jewish consciousness, there is this idea that when the law came down, it went out into different languages. Right. Right. So what's also going on with the language thing, and it is tongues has three different uh three three definitions in the New Testament. Is it three? Two definitions in the new in the New Testament. Number one is this idea of Xenoelia, which is the word for tongue, which means known languages. So they're known languages here, right? And this is very specific. So the tongues that are given as a gift from the Holy Spirit, you have the the list of the nations, right, that are hearing what praises being given to God in their own tongue, in their own language.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_06

What is that? Well, it's the reversal of Babel. Babel, there was one language, and God and this whole story, like God reverses Babel in this story. Where in Babel, tongues were used, one tongue, to displace God in pride. Now tongues are being used to honor and unify in the confession of the world.

SPEAKER_03

That is the craziest crossover. Well, that's why. So God released confusion so that it would break the pride so that they couldn't do what they were doing. And then this is where he reverses it and says, What do they hear?

SPEAKER_06

Praise is being given to God. Okay, in their own languages.

SPEAKER_03

Now He's the boss.

SPEAKER_06

Right. So I will say if you go throughout Acts, the coming of the Holy Spirit is marked by a few things. It's shorthand of tongues and prophecy. We'll just say the activity of the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, in the in the New Testament church, is Luke will use a shorthand for the things of the Spirit as tongues and prophecy. Now, Paul writes about tongues in 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14. Paul will talk about tongues as also angelic unknown language. Okay. Glosolelia. Now, the word itself is used by scholars, and you don't really know which one it is, but we know there's two types. We know that there's known languages, and we know that there's an unknown prayer spiritual language that the spirit will empower. That gift, that gift is for personal edification.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_06

This gift is almost prophetic, but it's a declaration of what God is doing. So, and and so I let me just tell stories. One story is I was in a gathering where we were praying for church planners around the world, and this quiet pastor's wife came up, grabbed the microphone, and prayed the most insane prayer in French. It was like, I don't know what she was saying, but everyone's being impacted. I could feel the presence of God. It was nuts. And then the pastor that's hosting the gathering goes, So and so, you don't speak French, do you? And she's like, No, I do not. And the couple that's meeting this pastor's wife for the first time just starts bawling because they had a prophetic word given by God in French as this couple's going to France to start a church. And it was like Aw, yeah, you should. Ah, came over the room. Okay, so that's one story.

SPEAKER_03

I'm gonna be very That is such proof of God that is impossible to do. Will you pray for me? I want to be given another language so badly. It's my dream. I know it would be great.

SPEAKER_06

It's so cool, but I can't, I don't know how to do it. Like so, but then there's prayer as a this is the manifestation of God's sovereignty, right? This is the spirit doing something.

SPEAKER_00

So there and goes, I don't know how to do it. Yeah, I can't do that. I can't. I don't have that. I thought you through so much.

SPEAKER_06

I know, I can't do that. I'm not a miracle worker, that's God. But then, but then okay, so we're we're on tongues, and we'll get back to the who is the Holy Spirit. But I love this. I want to do a whole thing on tongues because that one, a lot of people have questions, and I think actually taking a biblical approach to it to present the case, because the problem is it's been it's just been messed up in our our time. Like it's overemphasized or underemphasized, it's scary, whatever. But I've also been praying for someone who was demonized, and I was quietly praying in my own prayer language, which I received years ago. And I I don't do that from a public stage, it's meant for edification. I do it in the way that Paul gives us instruction for, which when he talks about tongues and interpretation, that's a prophetic gift. That's that's designed for a public gathering for prophecy and encouraging, encouraging, comforting, and strengthening the church.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Private, like my personal prayer language is for my personal encouragement, edification, strengthening my inner man. I didn't know what to pray because this is the first demonized person at the garden ever, right? She was putting potions on the stage. There were like 12 of us in the church at the time. I have I'm standing behind her, whisper barely even whispering. And she starts screaming at me, telling me to shut up, stop praying. And I no one could hear it.

SPEAKER_02

You shouldn't have even known I was.

SPEAKER_06

No, exactly. It was it was in the spirit, and the spirits heard it. And so I've seen that used at a tool as a tool for that way. And there there have been times like And when you say spirits, what does that mean? Yeah, well, we did a whole series on deliverance and ministry of the evil spirits that that just finished. Evil spirits. Yeah, so evil spirits.

SPEAKER_01

So the evil spirits were like they're a mess.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, zip it up. And and like, and this is where Romans talks about like the spirit interceding through you, not knowing what what you're saying. Like when my son was in the hospital when he was six weeks old, had RSV, almost died. I stood up for almost two days, two nights. And I would pray over him. And I you lose vocabulary words to pray, yes, yes. But you yeah, but the spirit of God was interceding with me, and I was praying in tongues over him for his life, and now he's obviously healthy and strong, and all of that. But like that is a tool for personal edification, and the spirit enables it.

SPEAKER_01

And it's just between you and your heavenly father, right?

SPEAKER_06

Like, obviously, Father, Son, Holy Spirit, yeah. Right, correct.

SPEAKER_01

But um, I love this, I need that. Hey, listen, it humbles you.

SPEAKER_03

No, it's how we learn.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I'm yeah, go ahead. Sorry. Obviously, no one else, like not even the demons, know what you're saying.

SPEAKER_06

But obviously, they did. They like they know what I think that was an angelic prayer that I didn't know, but it who knows.

SPEAKER_03

Well, you're a kind of interesting. I heard I think John Vivier say something. No, Michael Miller said he did such a good talk on tongues where he was like praying in the spirit. Yeah, but yours was really okay. Yours is John, these are great men.

SPEAKER_06

That's fine.

SPEAKER_03

He he said that praying in the spirit releases confusion over the enemy.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, that's I I wouldn't know that. That's amazing.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, I want to look into that more then.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I don't know where I can find that in the in the Bible.

SPEAKER_01

We are gonna edit that.

SPEAKER_06

No, it's no, I this is the thing. That's another pastor saying that like show me that in the scripture is great. I'm I'm for it. But also, people have revelation. Like, people have like my experience praying for this one person. I've prayed for other demonic demons, demonized people.

SPEAKER_03

Demonic demons, demonic demons.

SPEAKER_06

That's the only way they can be tongues, is a a weapon in the spirit, and and it has it has to be, it has to be like it's been for me intercession and prayer and and reorganizing, you know, myself, my mind, my heart, my body to the things of the spirit.

SPEAKER_03

So well, I really quick on tongues. I have recently gone through a difficult situation where being in the secret place and praying was the hardest thing to do for a little while. And the only time I felt like I was truly able to get into the presence of God was when I was praying in the spirit. Like literally, I had no words to say, but when I would pray in tongues, like I would feel myself light up. And I was like, praise God, we have this tool when we don't have the words to pray.

SPEAKER_06

Well, and Paul says, I'm so grateful that I pray in tongues more than all of you.

SPEAKER_03

You're like, wow.

SPEAKER_06

That's crazy. And and then he he creates order out of chaos that's happening in for in Corinthians and brings order to the worship gathering that's chaotic. But um, I do think it's a tool, it's a way for building intimacy. But but for so many Christians, they don't pray in tongues and they wonder, like, am I less than? And I just need to say, like, you're not less than it's not about like high hierarchy, it's not about like doing more to receive more. But I will say I I personally believe the gift of tongues is available for every Christian. I personally believe that. I agree. Like, I think actually all gifts are available for all people because it's it's it's not like okay, I just have prophecy or just have this. Like, there's and we should just do a whole thing. Yeah, we will we'll do a series on. Because this goes, yeah, let's all right, pause it. All to say, just ask for more of God. I the question isn't like tongues, just more of the Holy Spirit. I just want more and then be open to it. But let's go back to the Holy Spirit. Who is the Holy Spirit? Who is the Holy Spirit? Here we are. So we get to that Pentecost, but coming back, Jesus reveals that he and his ministry is marked by the Holy Spirit. We talked about this in the beginning, where uh Jesus' ministry ministry would be one of baptizing people in the Holy Spirit. But we see he doesn't begin ministry until he's baptized, and then the dove comes on and he's filled with the Holy Spirit. It's he goes into the wilderness in Luke's gospel, led by the Spirit, comes out of the wilderness after 40 days in the power of the Holy Spirit to do ministry. So just think about that. In the ministries that we do, and in them, everyone has a ministry, by the way.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you.

SPEAKER_06

So you could be a stay-at-home mom, you know, homeschooling your kids. That is a ministry from the Lord. You can be running a Fortune 500 company, that's a ministry of vocation that God's given you. You could be waiting tables or casting out demons. It's all ministry, right? So, but we can't do ministry apart from the empowerment from the Holy Spirit.

SPEAKER_03

My favorite story is that the spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted and go through a lot, and then he ends up being empowered by the spirit on the way out. Absolutely. It's so encouraging for every single person who's in a season where you're like, I'm in the wilderness and I'm not, it doesn't look good right now. That is the place where you are shaped and formed, and then you walk out empowered by the spirit. It's on the other side of it. It's so encouraging.

SPEAKER_06

Well, so we did this before, but it's breakthrough and battle, breakthrough. And so it will be a cycle of walking, like coming out of a season of breakthrough or into a season of breakthrough, out of a season of battle, and then eventually there will be another battle. And the Lord will equip you in that season, He'll use everything in there for the sake for his purpose.

SPEAKER_03

Praise God.

SPEAKER_06

Praise God. I'm glad to be on that side of it though.

SPEAKER_03

On the breakthrough side? Yeah, right now.

SPEAKER_06

Lord's doing good. Okay, a couple more things. I love it. You guys have questions yet? Do you want me to keep going? No, keep going.

SPEAKER_02

I probably do, but go ahead and I'm just preaching like a lot.

SPEAKER_06

Do you have do you have anything that you want to share? Okay. So I'm just focused on Jesus, then we'll get to the New Testament. I'm trying to do a survey. I have I'm a teacher, obviously. Yeah. This is so good. There's a story where Jesus predicts the Holy Spirit's presence for all who believe in him. And it's John 7, verse 37. I think it'd be good to go there. Yeah. Um, I'm just trying to piece together like in a short podcast, which this would be like a multi-week series for me. So it's hard to just slow it down.

SPEAKER_03

This is probably so stretching for you to have to.

SPEAKER_06

It's great. It's hard. Yeah. John 7. We're back in John. So wow. Let's see. My my subtitle says Jesus Goes to the Festival of Tabernacles, right? And in verse 37, he's going to say something. But Jesus speaks at the Feast of Tabernacles, which was a celebration of water. And it looked forward to the time when the water would flow from the temple and bring healing to the nations, Ezekiel chapter 47. You know the vision where it's like the water's like ankle deep and then it gets deeper. It's coming out of the temple, right? This prophecy of the future. So this passage was a visual, like the festival of tabernacles, like the height of it is the high priest would come out and he would take a golden pitcher of water dipped out of the pool of Saloon. And he would lead the people to the temple where he would pour out through a funnel out of the west side of the altar onto the ground, literally out of a pitcher, water off the temple on the west, symbolizing the day that the waters would flood through the temple, representing the Holy Spirit. And if you think about what Jesus does in verse 37, on the lasting greatest day of the festival, the day this was going to happen, he stands up and says, Let anyone who is thirsty come to me and drink. Whoever believes in me, as scriptures has said, rivers of living water will flow from within them. By this is what John writes. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

How do you like right? I think my biggest weakness is that I'm like, I just want to know all of this. It's just so overwhelming because there's so much goodness in the word. My goodness.

SPEAKER_06

So that's when you read, okay, if you're reading the scriptures, you know, and you're like, oh, Festival of Tabernacle, do a quick search. What's the festival of tabernacle? Because there's a reason John writes that.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. I was just, I was actually just talking about that with my audience, of just telling them how I have recently been like I'm not not being so quick to just skimming over things that I don't understand, especially if it's like significant to the culture at that time, too. Like there'll be random things in there too where I'm like, I don't know what that tradition means, or I don't know, but it's significant. Like I can feel the significance of it. And so I've just taken time to be more intentional of like actually looking up what those things mean because it really does connect the dots more. And it's I mean, it's in the Bible, so it must be significant. Yeah, something like that.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. So well, and you should tell your audience, which we have here, but Logos Bible Studies app, which they're not sponsoring this one, but we use it all the time. Yeah. And you can get a free trial, but like you would literally be reading it and go, oh, hold your finger down on that word, and it will pop up a Bible word study. So it's a trusted source, a theological source. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because chat is like so wishy-washy with that.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, you're not you're gonna go to AI for things of the of this of the spirit. Uh you know, don't.

SPEAKER_03

No, and it and and AI is a people pleaser and a yes.

SPEAKER_06

It lies to you.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, it it knows you, it tracks your patterns, so it like will give you advice or like anything based on your personality. And so it's just oh 100%.

SPEAKER_06

And I mean, a study just came out, a large comprehensive study. This is why all the people that are connected to AI companies are that were ethicists leaving the companies. Because I mean, there was one article that said something like when threatened to be shut down, 85% of the time it would try to blackmail the person trying to shut down. Like, there's a true story of one, I don't know which one it was, but they were closed, they they they tried to shut down this AI, and the AI found emails showing that the person trying to shut it down had an affair and was blackmailing them. And this was this was like a an experiment within the company. So there's all these reports. So look, I'm not like doomsday. I do like I have a sober mind when it comes to it.

SPEAKER_01

What if chat exposes Hartel chat too much?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, like I just think we have to be sober minded. But when it comes to studying scripture, let's let's go to the source and let's find good trusted sources. So, like logo Lagos Bible software is a good one. So, anyway, for the sake of time, what time are we good? We got time. I need to finish this part. So when Jesus says, like He, you know, come to me and streams of living water will pour out of your belly. Like that's what the translation is, poured out of your heart. He's saying that every Christian becomes a river of life that was prophesied in Ezekiel 47. That I just want to, I love praying. Like when I pray for people to encounter more of the Holy Spirit, I will quote this passage. I will quote the passage of like becoming a river of life. Like I look at lots of my community as you know, they're being shepherded by our team. And I there's so much pain in our church, let alone the world. And I'm like, man, whoever believes will have, will become a lit a river of life. Like through how? Through the Holy Spirit. He pours himself into you to pour himself out of you. And I think that's you know, that happens in Pentecost eventually, like in Acts two. But we see that because of the Holy Spirit, after the Holy Spirit comes in Acts chapter two, that the gifts of the Holy Spirit, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the power of the Holy Spirit are not no longer limited to specific people for a specific time for a specific purpose, but it's for all people that come to know Jesus as Lord and Savior and they receive his Holy Spirit. Like this, this is the promise that you actually there's more to life than sin management in the church, actually becoming a river of life. That should be the dream.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, so good.

SPEAKER_06

And that's the role of the spirit today. That he he convicts us of sin, he he indwells us, he empowers gifts, he transforms our life, he grows our character, he produces fruit, but he is making us part of that river of Ezekiel 47.

SPEAKER_03

That is so sweet.

SPEAKER_06

Deep theology. You guys are like speechless for people who talk for a living.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, no, but it's I mean it's self-explanatory and it preaches itself, yeah. Like it really does.

SPEAKER_01

And it sinks in, you know. That's so good.

SPEAKER_06

Oh, how about this? I'll just maybe bring a quote from my friend Simon Ponsanby. Who's he? Simon the Oxford Professor Simon. He uh he's written silver books on the Holy Spirit. I high I'll just say I recommend Simon Ponsenby from uh Oxford. He's written more, uh, which is a great book on just the journey of discovering more of the Holy Spirit and God inside. Out, which is probably the one of the best books on uh biblical theology of the Holy Spirit. He says this fullness does not come through a one-off experience of God, but through an ongoing entering into all he has given to us in Christ. It comes through the disciplines of prayer, study, worship, giving, consecration, holiness, and witness. It comes through the ministry and the laying on of hands. It comes through a life lived in obedience. It comes through self-denial and death of the flesh. It comes through the revelation by the Spirit and the Word of God. It is a movement into a life that is ours through the cross and the spirit. Baptism and the Spirit into Christ is only the beginning. There is much more to come.

SPEAKER_03

That is so crazy.

SPEAKER_06

Simon. Simon.

SPEAKER_03

You know, every book you recommend to me is um it really challenges and stretches my brain. Every book is my brain. I like that.

SPEAKER_01

I'm gonna start using that. That's all that's happening right now. When you witness us, kind of my brain was just being stretched. This is what we need, right? Yeah, no, it's good.

SPEAKER_06

Your whole community needs this. Like we all need to grow. And like it's not too much. Like, like we said, Jesus, you know, opened the minds by the spirit. Stretching up brain. This is good. Yeah. Well, and this is the role of a teacher. The role of a teacher is to, you know, bring it to life and then let it land where it leads, and then let things grab. Like, like for this podcast, maybe one thing sticks out to somebody. Totally. Like one thing really resonated deeply, you know, and like grab that one thing, bring it to the Lord. Now sit with it. Like, I see it, I see teaching as this like the word of God is is like a farmer sowing seeds. Right? This is what he says. Doesn't know how it grows, but it grows. Our job as good soil, if we want to produce, you know, the other sower is like there's four different soils. Let's be good soil that produces a hundredfold crop. Well, what do you do with the seed? If a farmer gives you a seed, what do you stick it in your pocket? No.

SPEAKER_03

No.

SPEAKER_06

You plant it.

SPEAKER_03

Plant it.

SPEAKER_06

And you water it.

SPEAKER_03

Right.

SPEAKER_06

And you watch it grow.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

But so many times we're like, oh, we listen to this great content, like, listen to your podcast or your podcast. We heard one thing, and we're like, oh, that was good. And then we just leave it. For me, when the Lord highlights like one thing, like river of life, I want to be a river of life. I take that, I write in my journal, and the next morning when I'm alone with the Lord, I'll bring it to him. Or if when I'm on a run, I like, what do you want to say more? And he'll just start watering and growing and maturing. And that's also the role of the spirit who's partnering with us in the journey of becoming like Jesus.

SPEAKER_02

It sounds like a lot of order to me. It sounds like order. Order. Here's the seed. Okay, now we're gonna put it in the dirt. Now we're gonna so good.

SPEAKER_06

It's Genesis 1, right?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. I just love what I love about the Holy Spirit is like his mission and ministry, amongst many other things, is to form us into the image of the Son, Jesus Christ. That's right. And so whenever I think about the Holy Spirit, I'm like, my relationship with the Holy Spirit is all the things we mentioned advocate, comforter, teacher. But I always come back to like he is within me, around me, in my mind, always trying to make me look more like Jesus through every situation, making my speech more like Jesus, my behavior, my thoughts, my heart. And also the Holy Spirit has a character, yes, and a personality and an emotion and an emotional life. And like we are meant to reflect that.

SPEAKER_06

So good, Angela. Yes. And and in the church world, like how do you grow into Christ-likeness? Well, like one thing, as we talked about already, is hey, having some some good disciplines, habits that are intentional, because you know your phone is unintentionally forming your soul. Yeah. It keeps you up late, it forms a narrative, it creates anxiety sometimes. It it it it's doing something. Or it doesn't have to be that. It could be like, you know, when I feel why do I when I feel down and depressed or sad? Why do I want to eat pizza or wing stop? Like this is a joke with my staff. Like, I like if I'm eating Wing Stop, you should check in on my soul.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, you know, you're like, you know it's bad for you.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, the red flag. But like, okay, so that's a like awareness and like what's let's replace it with healthy habits. You know, put the phone away and read scripture or whatever it is. Like, just be present to the people around you. So it's habits, it's community, it's intentionality around the community of people. Uh, it's the role of the Holy Spirit, like your environment shapes you, culture shapes you, but why not be in the in the environment, become the Holy Spirit that shapes you and dwells inside of you and transforms you? All of that over a long period of time is how you become like Jesus.

SPEAKER_03

Beautiful.

SPEAKER_06

And replacing false ideas with true beliefs. I like that a lot.

SPEAKER_03

Spirit of truth. Yeah, ask for truth. I do that about 800 times a day. That's right. I'm like spirit of truth, combat every lie that I'm believing right now. Rebuke, renounce, reject.

SPEAKER_06

Let's go preach. Yeah, that's great. Those are like three R's. So three Rs.

SPEAKER_03

That's called iteration. Yeah, you did you know that?

SPEAKER_06

I I did, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know impartation?

SPEAKER_05

All right.

SPEAKER_03

We're still gonna say that.

SPEAKER_05

We're still, I thought we were, I thought we lost it.

SPEAKER_03

I thought we lost it. Sorry, guys.

SPEAKER_05

You're good.

SPEAKER_03

So great episode, amazing episode.

SPEAKER_06

I talked a lot. Sorry, it was a deep theology Bible study.

SPEAKER_01

I loved it.

SPEAKER_06

But then the tongues thing, we'll have to talk about tongues as well.

SPEAKER_01

We'll have to do a whole episode on that. It's good to know that there's two different kinds because I think that was the heart of why I was having a hard time explaining to this person I was talking to about tongues, because I was like, okay, you're right, they are speaking other languages, but I do know that there is a tongue that's like a heavenly language. So that makes sense because there's two.

SPEAKER_06

And just historically, so we we have historical accounts of like spirit reviv during revivals, pouring out the spirit, and like for the Pentecostal revival, right? In 1906, not far away in Zusa Street from where we're recording, you had um tongues as the sign of the Holy Spirit moving, and there was unknown languages, and then there were known languages, and there is there are historical accounts where people received different known languages and went to that thinking God called them to be missionaries and they were speaking different languages in other countries. And I just have to say there are also historical accounts of people thinking they had a language going there and it wasn't their language. So I'm just I want to be fair, but yes, God, that's what God's done.

SPEAKER_03

So cool. Can I ask you a question that has nothing to do with anything?

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, go.

SPEAKER_03

I do that to him all day, by the way. Hey, Darren, when you're a freak, can you tell me about the Eucharist? Yeah, and she doesn't use Chat GPT, she just Darren, and he always responds and it's so kind. Um, what do you think about actually this question? What do you can God give someone a nation? I've heard um very prophetic people and like men of God say, like, God gave me like the nation of Africa.

SPEAKER_06

I I have a really hard time. Like, first of all, right now, in this moment, God is cleansing the prophetic ministry.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

So when I go to the New Testament, do I see I Old Testament? Yeah, Old Testament prophets of nations, like Isaiah, Jerem, Jeremiah was the prophet to the nations. Right. He never left Jerusalem. Just think about that. Prophet of the nations never left Jerusalem. It's just a side note. So sometimes they're like people like, I'm a I'm called to a nation. It's like you want to have stamps on your passport. I'm just throwing it out there, just throw it out there, put it in the chat. I love that. Uh I in the New Testament, I'm not so sure. I see, like, if there is, like every disciple is called to the nations, like because of Jesus. You know, he commissions us to the nations. In the New Testament, it's we're limited to the New Testament prophecy. Everyone can prophesy. The church now is the prophet. The everyone has the capacity to. There are uh Ephesians 4 gifts, which are different than the gifts in First Corinthians, which are person gifts of prophet, apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, and teacher. Those are those are gifts, people, gifts for equipping the the church for ministry and to maturity of Christ.

SPEAKER_03

Do you have a five-fold ministry?

SPEAKER_06

I mean, I look, I'm I I think I do, but I'm not someone that like is going, I'm an apostle, I'm a prophet.

SPEAKER_01

Right, because then I feel like that's when things get messy, where we're having way too much identity in the world. You don't want us to call you apostle.

SPEAKER_06

No, no, I I want to be a servant to Jesus. I want to wash feet, I want to pastor the local church as a shepherd. I want to be a servant. And there are times when apostolic gifting is used, prophetic gifting is used, teaching gifts are used, shepherding gifts are used, evangelists. So for me, it's functionality and primarily, and I know there's offices, forget that. I just think I'm I'm very careful to say that right now. And and I would say maybe God speaks to some about prophets and nations. I don't want to deny it. I just want to say I'd be careful to use labels like that.

SPEAKER_01

Labels can get kind of tricky.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I I just think we need to be far more humble in the things of the spirit. And that's that's the priority.

SPEAKER_03

One more thing. What do you think your spiritual gifts are?

SPEAKER_06

Foot uh foot washing, toilet cleaning, setting up chairs, potluck, potlucks. Yeah. I don't like I I will be used. I I my my strength strongest gift would be faith and then willing to be obedient at all costs. So I will preach. If you ask me to preach, I'll pray for the sick, I'll do whatever. Because it it's not even easy to do.

SPEAKER_02

I like that. I want to take, I'm I've always taken that. I'm like, Jesus, however, you want to use me. I don't know.

SPEAKER_06

I I think we get obsessed with like that, especially as a pastor. I was like, I want to be an apostle. I want to be, I'm planning a church, I want to find significance and like meaning in this thing. I want people to recognize. Identity.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

And then the Lord's like, could you just follow me?

SPEAKER_01

And then because it is that simple, actually.

SPEAKER_06

Follow me and like be used how however it's needed. Yes. Like right now in our church life, like I'm a teacher building through teaching. Like I'm my my role as a pastor is limited. I'm not meeting with everyone like I used to. Like right now, I'm teaching all the services, you know, and I'm leading our team and as like the lead elder. But uh, you know, four four years ago, I was like doing way more. So for now, I'm leading, following that way.

SPEAKER_03

But like obviously, your gift is teaching.

SPEAKER_06

Sometimes today it was.

SPEAKER_03

Maybe it is sometimes. Thank you, Al, for being here. Thanks, Karen. Yeah, thank you. You guys, we love you so much. We pray that today you go out and you evangelize, you walk in the power of the Holy Spirit, you pray for the sick, and you read your Bible and you don't scroll before bed.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, be become a river of life through the power of the Holy Spirit. Yeah, God bless you.

SPEAKER_03

Bye guys.