Bible Study Podcast

Living for God in a distorted Culture — Lessons from Daniel

• Darren Rouanzoin, Angela Halili • Episode 19

Share episode

Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.

0:00 | 1:09:22

Empire forms you before it forces you. That was Babylon's strategy with Daniel — and it is still the strategy today. New location, new language, new literature, new name, new food. All of it designed to rewrite a teenager from the inside out without him knowing it was happening. This episode reads Daniel chapter 1 and draws a direct line to the algorithm, the feed, and the culture forming the next generation right now.

In this episode:

  • Babylon's five formation tactics and their modern equivalents
  • Daniel resolved — what that Hebrew word actually means
  • How God works in Babylon through one person, one relationship, one act of faithfulness
  • Gen Z is not trying to survive culture — they are trying to win it
  • We are not here to destroy Babylon. We are here to redeem it.


SPONSOR
This series is brought to you with the support of Logos Bible Software — the tool all three of us use when studying Scripture. Whether you want to go deeper in a passage, explore word studies, or dive into commentaries, Logos puts everything in one place. You can try it free for 60 days through our partner link below.

📖 Try Logos free for 60 days: https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst


Hosted by:


#BibleStudy #Daniel #GenZ #ChristianPodcast #Faith #Jesus #BibleStudyPodcast

SPEAKER_02

It could. We're not we're not immune.

SPEAKER_06

No, not with us on the T2.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. That's right. Good theology. Well, they start recording, and now I'm aware that our conversation is like going into the music. So tell me when you hit record so I know. Okay. Oh, we are recording. Okay. Hey everyone, welcome back.

SPEAKER_06

Let's go. The Bible study podcast.

SPEAKER_02

Yes, that's right. Welcome back to the Bible study podcast. We're so glad you're joining us. I people are asking me, what is this podcast? I'm like, just think of it as a midweek Bible study. That's it. Diving into the word. So good. We have some new guests with us. We have Pastor Slav. Pastor Slav is um Slav. Slav.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. V. How do you say the whole names? Sviatoslav. There it is.

SPEAKER_05

Where are you from?

SPEAKER_04

Ukraine. So my parents are from Ukraine. My full name literally means holy glory. So it's a really big name to live up to. It's insane.

SPEAKER_02

He is the youth pastor at Garden Church, the church that I lead. So he's also my son's youth pastor. That is so awesome. That's that's how I interesting. He is Ezra's youth pastor. It's an honor. It's a gift. Yeah. So glad you're here. Thanks for having me here.

SPEAKER_06

You're an amazing communicator and an amazing preacher. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

And one of the things we're doing is we're obviously bringing on friends of ours and guests, and we have some exciting guests coming up that we've locked in, which we're excited to talk about in a couple episodes. But I want to bring in people that are friends in my life that I respect and love. And I love this young man. I think he is the future of the church. He has is an incredible preacher. He's a deep thinker. He graduated Asbury with his masters. He's amazing. He and his wife are incredible. They're going to have is this public now?

SPEAKER_04

Well, now it's going to be public. Let's go. Yeah. We haven't posted on social media, but yeah, we're having another girl. Another year. Let's go. Yeah. Girl dad unlocked. Yeah. So exciting.

SPEAKER_02

So we're so excited for you to join us. We're going to dive into the topic. I don't really know how to like frame it. I was talking to Slav and to you. I was like, hey, I want to talk about Gen Z. I want to talk about G Generation Alpha. And I want to talk about like characteristics and uh ways to redeem culture. So I thought, hey, let's talk about the book of Daniel and look at the characteristics that Daniel embodies in Babylon and talk about what how we can apply that today. So that's kind of the framework for this. But before we jump in, let's just keep talking. How are you doing? Updates. Let's go.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I'm really good. I preached this last weekend on tour with 101 fever. I had the flu, but how's your heart?

SPEAKER_02

Heart is great. Heart check-ins, yeah. We do, I don't remember doing that, but yes.

SPEAKER_06

I like it.

SPEAKER_04

So Wesleyan. I love it. I know you love that circuit writer.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

My heart is good. I got back from Hawaii on Monday. I was uh celebrating, finishing my master's, and uh I'm I I signed with a publisher to write a book. So I have a book coming out, not for a while, on the book of Revelation. So that's the first time I'm announcing it here. Wow, wow. So that's exciting. And uh the garden, you know, we launched another church essentially.

SPEAKER_06

Are you okay?

SPEAKER_02

I'm fine, yeah. So only did we launch a new location in Costa Mesa, but we launched a second service in Costa Mesa. So the last four months have been absolutely bonkers, which you know. Yeah, we did the Bee Field Conference, which was the youth conference we did on the Holy Spirit. You led that. It's been a wild time, but I am really grateful. I feel like we ran really hard. My wife and I worked really hard the last four months, but we had a great vacation, and I'm just so excited for what God's doing. Like, I will say there's a lot going on in our church, and you're a part of this. We're doing ministry plans and stuff right now. You're part of the teaching team meetings that we're having. But I am really hopeful and expectant of God moving right now. I just, I'm seeing it. People are coming back to faith. I was literally parked outside of a restaurant yesterday in Newport, waiting to meet someone, and this guy knocks on my window, and I'm like in the middle of nowhere in like this neighborhood. He's like, roll down your window, and he's like, Pastor Darren, I was supposed to get baptized last week, but you changed it. My dad's flying down. We're both getting baptized in two weeks on Pentecost at the garden. Wow. Like God's changed my life. Here's my girlfriend. Like, we're, and I'm I'm hearing this testimony everywhere. Like, God's moving right now. So I'm I'm really excited.

SPEAKER_06

Okay, can I ask Slav what it's like for you? Because Darren's talked about a little bit, like garden is exploding and there's revival happening, and it's so cool to watch God moving. How is it from your perspective? Because is this kind of the first time you're watching like a massive move of God happening?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, I mean, this is so I grew up in the church, and so this is something I've been contending for for a long time. I grew up in like a charismatic Pentecostal tradition. And so revival culture was always a part of my upbringing. And so I just remember from an early age praying for this and then just seeing it before my eyes is like such an honor and a privilege to be a part of. I think time will tell if it's a revival, but I think it's just to see what God is doing. It's an honor to steward, even what happened at Be Filled, what happened was happening at youth to gift and an honor.

SPEAKER_06

What happened?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, well, we we had last year, last March, the Lord spoke to me specifically in the sauna. As uh I always meet with the Lord in the sauna for some reason. Yeah, it's like a mock wilderness, it's so hot. And I turn on William Augusto soaking music.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my god, my Lord.

SPEAKER_04

And he did. He he like gave me a picture of a conference, and in my mind's imagination, it was bigger than what I thought it would be. And I'm like, oh, we'll build there, like we'll get to that point eventually. And so I presented it to one to my overseer at Garden, Ramin, and he's like, Oh yeah, we should run with it. And as we started saying yes, it was just like the Lord's favor was on it. And I want it to stop. I was like, it was my insecurities were coming out. I'm an NE Gram 3, so I'm like, performance, like uh achievement. Yeah. And so I was like, I don't want to do this because if if it fails, I'm gonna look real bad. And I remember Ramin looked at me, and this is what you say too is uh you're insecure, and it's insecurity's pride. I'm like, Oh shoot, you're right. Yeah, and you could be standing in the way of what God is doing in Southern California. I'm like, how about this? Let's let's just do this, let's have the elders pray. All right. And so the elders gathered that next week or something, and they said it took five minutes for them to say, no, this has got to be a regional thing. Wow, and so it was a lot so clear.

SPEAKER_02

Like, I just want to say, I love watching God bring vision to like young, young leaders and and watching Slav have this idea and like really like you you kind of were you were insecure and humble and like, okay, it's gonna be this big. And everyone around you is going, no, it's gonna be this big. Yeah, and and I and it, and it was keep going.

SPEAKER_04

Well, even yeah, so you know, conference building is is is really hard, and there's a lot of faith and finances involved in it. And I literally thought the week before it was gonna be the small little thing, and that week we basically sold out, and not not just that, I mean, the Lord showed up so powerfully. Yes. Um, the last night that Darren taught, it was just insane. We had to take out two rows in the front for all the kids that were just on their knees weeping.

SPEAKER_02

And we started at like it was young boys, like yeah, it there were a lot of like high school boys and young men like I was talking to my wife, she's like, Was it a bunch of girls? Like, which like whatever. I'm like, no, it was there was like a true heartfelt moment where like young men, young, young, young ladies, they're all connected with God.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah. But this wouldn't have been possible. We started prayer and fasting two months before, 90 days before, so three months before. We had 72 hours of nonstop prayer that was happening in a chapel nearby at Vanguard. And so I I don't think any of that would have happened without the lack of without the prayer, without the fasting that all went to it and the belief from the elders and the covering that it had. And it was just such a blessing to the lots of lots of youth ministries that came from Arizona, Northern California. We had friends from Seattle and Portland come out and Nevada. So it was so beautiful. And I remember on the last night, because the way that you, you know, want to do build a conference, you don't want it to be just like bam every single time. You kind of want to build some uh a crescendo into it. And so we're waiting for the last night. And I just remember, let's go, let's go off on this one. Let's go as hard as we can. And the altars were flooded with young boys and so many, so many people coming up to receive the Holy Spirit. And I was like, let's go for healing. And so we went, we went for healing. And I don't know what the actual number is, but it felt like dozens. Many people raised their hand. Yeah, yeah. There was a kid who afterwards said, sorry, I'm hogging a conversation. No, this is amazing. This is what we wanted. Great. This one kid I heard a youth pastor texting me afterwards that he believes that the Lord healed him from OCD, which is like beyond my category of healing. I know like mental like healing. That's insane. He said that Pastor Darren had a word of knowledge that the Lord was gonna touch someone with OCD, and he didn't raise his hand in time to receive prayer. And so he felt bummed, he missed that he missed out on God. And so he closed his eyes, opened his hands, and he said he felt like heat come over him, and his eyes do like a REM cycle thing. Yeah, and he's believing that the Lord healed him from OCD, which is just I know, I know.

SPEAKER_06

So I have goosebumps all over my body. That is the whole experience.

SPEAKER_02

Like I've done a bunch of conferences, I've spoken a lot of different places. This was my favorite conference experience for lots of reasons. Here's what I would say because we're not advertising, but now we are. Be Fill 2027 is a youth conference for sixth to 12th graders. And it was primarily focused on the presence of the Holy Spirit, raising the next generation up to seek God's presence. And God met us so powerfully with every speaker, every breakout session was so powerful. My son was there along with his best friends and kids that I have known since they were born. So, like, you know, Dylan Tim Tim is graduating high school. She was the first kid dedicated at garden church. It was created in the basement with 12 people. Like, and so that's how old our church is. But she was praying for people and people got healed. Like, I'm watching God move for through the youth. All the sessions were great, all that was amazing. The whole experience, I've talked to all these youth pastors that were there. They got rocked, their leaders got rocked, and they're all signing up for next year. And I think it's authentic, it's whole, it's not like it's not a vibe. It was definitely just like this real authentic expression of the next generation going for it. My favorite was the worship. Yeah, so good. The kids were like jumping up and down so much joy, freedom.

SPEAKER_01

Like they're just going off, like, let's go for nonstop. It's like 15 minutes of like at the end. That was so great.

SPEAKER_04

My my daughter is 18 months. She was in the back during Washed. Yes. And she loves that song right now. I know. When I turn it on, she's just like jumping up and down, so happy. And then when it when it's about to finish, she goes like this, more, more, please, more. So I turn it on again. So we'll play washed probably 10 or 15 times in the morning. That is so great.

SPEAKER_06

That's such a good setup for today's conversation because I feel like you know, the whole thing about there's no junior Holy Spirit. Yes. And would you guys say that people typically like water down the gospel or biblical teaching for children in a way that they don't need to?

SPEAKER_02

That's a great question. I just sent you and our kids pastor uh this study that came out about basically people who walk away from their faith if they grew up in the church. And it was a fascinating just insight, like a current up-to-date study on this. And at the end of the day, it's people need a if they're if if they want to have a sustained faith over a long period of time when they become adults, they they just need they need the real Jesus. Yeah. And they re they need the gospel and they need teaching. And what I love at at our church, and we've done this intentionally, our kids' pastor, Alex Nomavuka, who we should have her on here.

SPEAKER_04

She's amazing.

SPEAKER_02

Alex and and Slav are part of the family's team, and they are raising disciples. They're they're not doing ministry to the kids, they're they're partnering with kids in ministry. And I think that's a huge shift, which we we are gonna talk about over the next three days, like three weeks on this podcast about what you're doing in the youth and why it looks different and why it's growing. Like you took over a youth that I think had like 12 kids, 16 kids.

SPEAKER_04

Uh probably 20.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, 20 kids. Yeah. Umbers. Okay, yeah. I I caught a fish this big in boy. It's so good. Actually, I didn't catch any fish on our deep sea fish uh experience. And and it's grown significantly, but it's not, it's not just grown numerically. It's it's like, you know, they're they're doing uh a prayer room at five o'clock. I dropped my son off at five o'clock for youth on Thursdays because they do a prayer room at five, and then they have youth group at 6 30. So it's like they're showing up and it's it's we're doing our we're hosting our own prayer room, and then they're then they're then there's the the ministry time and all of it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, just last night we had three of our student leaders preach, and it was just the altars were packed with students responding to the messages, kids getting ministered to, hearing God's voice for each other is so beautiful. Yeah, I love it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I mean for everyone listening, because there's a lot of probably youth pastors and people listening. This has come from a vision you've had, though. Because when I met Slav, I met him through a job application where he wrote a vision about the next generation. And and I remember Pastor Amin going, dude, have you seen this? I'm like, No, I haven't seen it yet. And he brought it to me. He's like, look at this vision and be filled, like the things that you're experiencing, like God clearly put that in your heart. And I think that's what's going on, is there's a lot of young leaders right now that are leading in obscurity, like, you know, uh, youth groups of 12 kids, youth groups of 20 kids in random places, but there's like this seed in their heart that God put in there that has this bigger vision of renewal and revival. I don't like using the word revival. I didn't grow up in a revival culture. I and I agree with you. Like, I don't want to call it revival or a move of God. I I see God moving around the world. We were talking about Philip Anthony Mitchell, like God is doing something there without question through that man's life. Yeah, he's touching the world. We can't say the same about us, like that's not us now, but I do think God is moving. And and I think we'll see that in years to come. But anyways, it's so excited. I'm so glad you're here. There's so much, so much going on.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, thanks so much for having me.

SPEAKER_02

Should we jump in? Yeah, let's start. Can I pray? I want to pray. Of course. I was thinking, I was I was listening to one of our Bible study things, and I just wanted to pray. I want to pray for people that are listening because I'm not, I don't do podcasts. Like I now we have a podcast. Like, so I'm like, okay, I have to figure that out. But I was like, if I my my wife and I were talking about this, she's like, hey, however, you do the podcast, just make sure you're doing it like you do everything else. Like who you have on. Like if they come to the would they be at the garden teaching? I'm like, that's a good point. So I just want to allow the Holy Spirit to minister, even right now, to people listening. One of the guys who supports the nonprofit that helps sponsor this. He got back surgery and he was driving home from his back surgery yesterday, listening to our most recent podcast. And he was like, This is so good. He's like, I'm loopy because I'm on drugs right now. But it's so good. Is that the Holy Spirit? Yeah, I know exactly. But I was like, let's just pray real quick. So, Lord, I just want to invite your presence as we open your word, as we continue to steward, you know, this time where people give us their time. And I've read some of those comments of life change and inspiration and empowerment. I pray right now, God, that you would uh take this beyond anything we could ever do by sitting in a studio talking about you. I pray that your Holy Spirit ignites these conversations each week, that you would bless those that are listening, that their hearts would be caught on fire for you, Jesus, that they would fall in love with you. They would fall in love with the word of God and that they would grow as resilient disciples through this ministry. And I pray, God, just a blessing over Angela and Slav and their families and everything that they're stewarding and their lives. And I just thank you for those that have made a community out of this podcast. We just want to ask that your favor rest with them right now in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_06

Amen.

SPEAKER_02

Good. All right. Anything you want to add?

SPEAKER_06

No.

SPEAKER_02

All right. We're gonna jump into Daniel. Okay, does that sound okay? I want to jump into Daniel. I want to talk about how a teenager became a counterculture without becoming a counterpunch. That's like a framework, right? So, like, because I think there's a there's like this thing right now where it's like, in order to be countercultural, you gotta be like aggressive and outrageous in some ways.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And Daniel, the book of Daniel reveals these characteristics of redemption that I think are so important. I just want to say, like, in general, you know, we could talk about the church as a whole. And the church has throughout history uh approached culture in different ways. And a lot of places are like just reject culture altogether, abandon it. You know, like we should I think there's a temptation for a lot of young people right now. We're like, let's just escape into the desert and monastery. Yeah, let's go live in a monastery away from all the influences. And I don't think that's the process. We were talking about this on the drive today. Like, I don't think it's like, let's do practices, let's do spiritual formation so that we can just hide away. I think the Lord wants us to be formed into his image so that we can become fire, fire, right? And transform culture. It's also, we also don't want to kind of just adopt culture and just be kind of what's called syncretism, which is this missiology word, which is to take the practices of culture and Christianity and just blend them together, right? Um, that's not what we want to do. We see that in the scriptures. Like when that happens, we lose our witness, we lose our power. So there's something about redeeming culture I want to speak into today. So why don't we start with the text, maybe? You want to let's go there. So uh maybe some of you can read some of it.

SPEAKER_06

Definitely.

SPEAKER_02

All right, Angela, you want to go or Daniel chapter one. There's a lot of hard names. So great. If you're reading Daniel for the first time, just know that the names are hard and we'll probably get them wrong. Logos will tell you how to pronounce it. Yeah, that's right.

SPEAKER_06

In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim, king of Judah, Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, came to Jerusalem and besieged it. And the Lord delivered Jehoiakim, king of Judah, into his hand, along with some of the articles from the temple of God. These he carried off to the temple of his God in Babylonia and put in the treasure house of his God. Then the king ordered Ashpenaz, chief of his court officials, to bring into the king's service some of the Israelites from the royal family and the nobility, young men without any physical defect, handsome, showing aptitude for every kind of learning, well informed, quick to understand, and qualified to serve in the king's palace. He was to teach them the language and literature of the Babylonians. The king assigned them a daily amount of food and wine from the king's table. They were to be trained for three years, and after that they were they were to enter the king's service. Among those who were chosen were some from Judah: Daniel, Hananiah, Meshael, and Azariah. The chief official gave them new names to Daniel, the name Beltishazzar, to Hananiah, Shadrach, to Meshael, Maeshach, and to Azariah Abendago. Shadrach, Meshach, Abednego.

SPEAKER_02

Go a little further.

SPEAKER_06

Okay. But Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine, and he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself in this way. Now God had caused the official to show favor and compassion to Daniel, but the official told Daniel, I am afraid of my Lord the king, who has assigned your food and drink. Why should he see you looking worse than the other young men of your age? The king would then have my head because of you. Daniel then said to the guard, whom the chief official had appointed over Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah, please test your servants for ten days. Give us nothing but vegetables to eat and water to drink. Then compare our appearance with that of the young men who eat the royal food, and treat your servants in accordance with what you see. So he agreed to this and tested them for ten days. At the end of the ten days, they looked healthier and better nourished than any of the young men who ate the royal food. So the guard took away their choice food and the wine they were to drink and gave them vegetables instead. To these four young men, God gave knowledge and understanding of all kinds of literature and learning. And Daniel could understand visions and dreams of all kinds. At the end of the time set by the king to bring them into his service, the chief official presented them to Nebuchadnezzar. The king talked with them, and he found none equal to Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah. So they entered the king's service. In every matter of wisdom and understanding about which the king questioned them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and enchanters in his whole kingdom. And Daniel remained there until the first year of King Cyrus.

SPEAKER_02

We should just make that a clip. Daniel chapter one. That won't go viral, though. It's weird, but it should. We got to make that viral. Let's go. Well done. All right. Some observations. Let's just start. First of all, Daniel chapter one. There's so many pieces to this where, like, if we were to set the stage in context, it would just blow everyone's mind. Like that word besieged means that the Babylonians set up camp around Jerusalem and didn't allow water or food to come in. So they were starving. You couldn't, you know, sanitation can't come out. Like, wow. So you have this image of like, oh, we read over that word, but you have like this terrible moment where Yahweh's city is being destroyed, like he promised, right? The previous generations. Like, this is gonna happen if you don't obey the commands fully. And you have this image of like, okay, it's besieged. There's something about food, like people, no food coming in and out. And then there's this thing about the king's table and food. And so I just think that's interesting. But I want to start with framing Daniel, because I I I've got a lot of notes, so I'm gonna stick to the notes today. Somebody was saying that six, seven is Witchcraft on our podcast. And I was like, what is going on in the world?

SPEAKER_06

There's a lot. I'm distracted by that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I'm like, why, why? Friends, like Jesus is so much more powerful. Thank you for saying that. Right? Like, let's stop being like nitpicking on these things, you know? And if you're watching a clip that's clipped and you don't listen to the whole context, watch the clip and then listen to the context before you comment on Instagram. Please, let's make this a clip. Because we need Christians to do better at having conversations online. Like calling us a heretic because you don't agree with tongues. That's not a heresy, right? Like calling saying Jesus didn't raise from the dead, that's a heresy. Like not believing in the Trinity, that's a heresy. Like disagreeing with second and third issues are not heresy. And I just think we need to be more educated and don't get your education from YouTube. Read books, get Bible study app like logos. Don't be influenced by just TikTok theologians. Study the Bible. Do the work. All right. Like, so that's a freebie. And that speaks to this. That's for free, guys. That speaks to this because I will say this here's what's interesting. Daniel, when he starts in the book of Daniel, is a teenager. He's a sophomore, probably in high school. That's how I would frame it. Like a 15-year-old kid. And he has a family he loves, he has a city he loves. He's been shaped by a faith. You know the background. Talk about his background real quick.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah. Yeah. He grew up in King Josiah's kingdom. And Josiah was the one who restored all of the glory of the temple. Yeah. He uh brought back the scripture into the forefront of the Hebrew consciousness. It was like a complete reformation from his father. I mean, he became king at eight years old. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

It's crazy. And there's things about Josiah, which we'll talk about in a couple weeks, where Josiah reset prayer rhythms for the whole kingdom. Yep. So when we get later on into Daniel's life, here he is in Babylon, 900 miles away from Jerusalem, and he's still praying the prayer hours. He was formed in Josiah's kingdom. So he he had a formation that happened from uh what would be a youth ministry. Yeah. Right? Because he's 15 and now he's away. And this is this is important for our conversation. So Gen Z, Gen Alpha, like you have a kid, right? Who has a family and friend whose city is surrounded by false gods, by a by an alternative culture that is filled with heretics, that's filled with um idols and different belief systems, and his country surrounded, and then the temples destroyed, the temple articles are taken away. He is part of this indoctrination campaign by Nebuchadnezzar. He doesn't just want to conquer new territories. We see this in ancient uh civilizations. Like Alexander the Great was extraordinary at not just conquering lands, but bringing a new culture. And we'll see that this is an ancient playbook that is being used today. Because as much as Babylon was a place, Babylon is also a spirit. We see that in Revelation, that Babylon is a framework that the Bible will use to talk about uh ideology, systems, uh governments that are opposing God. Which you can read more about that in Revelation soon, whenever that book comes out. Anyways, so he's loaded up on a caravan, he's dragged dragged 900 miles through the desert, where he's brought before uh the king's table. And I think it's interesting, like you look at the qualifications, they're trying to bring the best, the smartest, the people who would lead the next generation, and they want to indoctrinate them in the Babylonian way. That's kind of what's going on. Daniel is not an old prophet. Yeah, he's not standing on a mountain with a beard, going, This is this is what is, you know, shaking his fist at the king. He's a high school student who's been formed through Josiah's reformation, and he goes into a much bigger city, he goes to a much smarter organization city, you know, and he's thrust into this new place, and he will live in a way that brings about the redemption of Babylon.

SPEAKER_06

And so do they choose these young people because they're impressionable and easily indoctrinated?

SPEAKER_02

I I don't know if I uh yes, they're they're choosing these people based on the qualifications. They had to be good looking, they had to be smart, they had to be intelligent, ready to serve, able to learn. So they're taking like, you know, college Ivy League college students, which I think that's funny. Ivy League college students, right? And they're gonna indoctrinate them into their way of being. Sound familiar? Yeah, shoot.

SPEAKER_01

Right?

SPEAKER_02

So scary. So we've had this saying uh in our church, like I heard it from somewhere where it was like, you know, so much of church culture is like, all right, you're gonna grow up in a youth culture, a youth group culture, and then you know, little Johnny's gonna go off to college. Yep. And I hope little Johnny, you know, survives college, but we've reframed it like I hope the college will survive Johnny's faith.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And that's what's happening here with Babylon. So here's what I want to share: a couple of things. I have a bunch of points. I don't think I'll get through them all. I want to say, first of all, that when we talk about Babylon, we're talking about empire, we're talking about cultural influences. Empire forms you before it forces you. And this is something I observed. Babylon doesn't start with violence, Babylon starts with formation.

SPEAKER_05

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

Right? So Nebuchadnezzar doesn't torture Daniel to believe in the Babylonian gods. He enrolls him in a three-year indoctrination school. It's a graduate program. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And he gives him the best food, he gives him the best teacher, he gives him a new wardrobe, he gives him a new name, he gives them a social circle, a group of friends, he gives them a schedule, a daily schedule. The strategy isn't violence, the strategy is simple formation. Because the empire knows that if it can get inside of the rhythms of a teenager, then it can rewrite the teenager from the inside out. So it will not have to raise a fist at the next generation. It just forms them without them knowing they're being formed. Okay. So does that speak to this moment? Yes. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Go. What do you got? Any I know you're you're new to the podcast, but yeah, as things come up, interject.

SPEAKER_04

No, I was, I was just, I was just reflecting on my own. You know, I grew up as the first generation to be introduced to the to the iPhone. I remember when it first came out, it was like just this new thing, as you both probably remember. And there was no idea, we had no idea what was about to happen. And my parents, God bless them, they didn't know any better. And they just granted me at in third grade an iPod touch, unfiltered, unrestricted. And that just wreaked havoc in me. And man, I I just I just know that that was one of the ways that the enemy was trying to subvert all the things that God is doing in my life right now, just like subtle ways of indoctrination and distraction, and which I'll get into in a moment here about the feeding thing. But man, it's it's so subversive as well. Because what's interesting here is that the Babylonians aren't, like you mentioned, violence. They're they're appeasing them with comfort. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. And status. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And so that, you know, Daniel and his friends are like, oh, look at us. We're like with the know it alls. We're in the we're in the palace. We get access to the king. Like, look at us. And that is the that is still happening today, I believe. Yeah.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah. And I think it's interesting too because you and I are very different in the way that we grew up. You grew up in a church context. I grew up not in a church context at all. I grew up in the world, by the world, by Hollywood, by social media. I was raised and formed by Hollywood and social media and movies and TV shows. And like I think as we go through our lives in the church, we are not even aware of anymore how indoctrinated these kids are. That's right. Like how normal things like OnlyFans is. Like we're growing up in a world where people think OnlyFans and selling their bodies online is completely normal. There's nothing wrong with that. So like we have a generation that we need to think about the generation of people who are fighting a battle that like you guys haven't even had to fight yourselves because they're growing up in a context where the most Babylonian, horrific, evil things are not only normal but encouraged.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that's that's a really interesting point. And that's exactly the problem that we are we are being indoctrinated, formed. We'll use that word. We're being formed by systems, powers, evil. We've talked about the spiritual, you know, the world of the unseen realm. Satan is at work, but you know, algorithms, all these things are forming people without them knowing.

SPEAKER_05

Without them knowing.

SPEAKER_02

And I want to show through Babylon how similar it is today. Yeah. Like so, going back, you know, we're talking thousands of years ago, Babylon used tactics of identity replacement.

SPEAKER_05

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

So we read it already, but I just want to highlight they had an identity replacement for them, right? So, how do you conquer a culture? How do you conquer a generation? Well, Babylon did this, they gave them a new location, new language, new literature, a new name, and new food. And so every single one of those is like a sermon or a a way of formation that's being placed on top of each of these kids, Daniel being the one. So the first tactic that Babylon has is uh moving the Daniel to a new location. He goes from Jerusalem to Babylon. So Daniel's being formed in the city of God to the city of empire. Yeah. And that geography, you know, is a major influence. The second is new language. So he's speaking a new tongue. He's which, if you speak a different language, like language shapes your worldview. So now he's got a new world worldview. Words describe reality. And we'll talk about how that leads leaps today in a second. But I think think about that. Like your worldview is being shaped by the language that you have. Like the third is the new literature. So they give him the Babylonian myths and literature to understand. So for them, Daniel's going to be reading how the Babylonian world is formed. They have those that literature is connected not to entertainment as much as it is to gods that they believe shaped the world. So that tells them who the Babylonians are, it tells them who he is. They are the fourth is a new name. So I think Daniel's name, his name means God is my judge. And then they rename him, and his name is uh the Babylonian God Bell. So his now he has a new name, Yahweh's my judge, to now the Babylonian god Bell is connected to his name. So every time he's called the new name, it's a re uh dedication, a reminder that the empire has transformed him. And the last thing, which we'll talk about more, is that they're they're giving him food from the king's table. And in the ancient world, eating from the king's table meant you were under the king's authority. So the plate was a contract. You were you were signing a partnership with the king. So every time he ate a meal, it was the final stone that this is a foundation of being aligned with the Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar. So that's what's going on. We read over these things, but that that's a strategic formation process. And everything Babylon did to Daniel, Babylon is doing to us today.

SPEAKER_05

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

Can we just talk about why good theology matters? Because I grew up just taught just thinking, oh, one day there's going to be a new Babylon, you know, when there's the one world order and then there's a new Babylon.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, end times.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I know. Uh we kind of got to hold off because there's probably going to be a revelation series later on. But uh I just remember thinking, oh, one day when New Babylon comes, like we got to be strong. Yeah. Or even, you know, thinking about, well, you know, America is a Christian nation, so it's not Babylon. And I think if we if we live that theology or believe that theology will cause undue harm to us, our children, our youth ministries, to what we allow our kids to watch. Yes. Um, and so that this is why it's so important to have like a right understanding of what Babylon is, which I think you're doing beautifully right now.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think that's really important. We, I mean, I'm I'm very passionate about this. This is something I literally was just writing on the seven signs that Babylon lives within you. So good. Because I I do see like we're listen, listen, we are so privileged to live in the United States. Yes, there's so many issues, but we we can worship without being threatened. Yeah, you know, in whatever religion you like believe in right now. Like that's there's a freedom. There's so many freedoms we have in this nation that we should be absolutely grateful for that. And, you know, we have ideas about humanity that have been shaped in in the constitution of the United States by Christian theology and belief systems. That's incredible. Like, yeah, I look at what's happening in Nigeria right now, and Christians are being massacred for their belief. Like there are places, you know, where it's illegal to be Christian. And and there's so many reasons for that. And for and there's so many other things, but but so so I don't want to like dismiss that. I'll say that, but but there is a spirit of Babylon, and it's a spirit of of conquering, it's anti-God, it's anti-Jesus, it's it's uh it's it's the promotion of self, it's the it's the acquiring of goods, like at the expense of the poor. Like I just had this conversation with my kids. You know, we live in a moment where slavery is the all-time high right now. Like there are more slaves today in the world than there were back in the 1600s, 1700s. Crazy. And the slave issues that we're dealing with have to do with minerals and the things that make up batteries around the world. So, like our iPhone, you know, you know, Apple might have best practices, but the they contract companies in other parts of the world that don't have best practices that are utilizing children to mine re precious resources from the earth, and that is a tragedy. So that that's Babylon, like that is you know, conquest and domination. And we're the contributors, and we're participating in that and so that's a longer conversation, but I want to talk about the like the ideology of Babylon information, and I want to connect it today because I actually think the strategy hasn't changed from ancient Babylon to today. I think it's the same strategy, just the packaging changed. For example, we talk about like Babylon using a new location to form people. The new location today is the algorithm that forms you. Like you don't need to travel 900 miles to have a new worldview. You are carrying in your pocket something that shapes you. And you know, each generation is spending more time on devices on screen. Like six to seven hours, people are being shaped by by this device. That is and it like it's gone up. It's like it's like 12 hours for a lot of kids. TikTok, YouTube, social media, gaming. That that's not geography forming them. That that's a new geography forming them. Yes, right? The algorithm, the the social feed, people are being shaped by that. The new language, I will say, is a vocabulary that is shaping us. Like you think about how like we talked about six, seven, we talked about the meanings of words, brain rot. Brain rot. Like my kids speak in a language I don't understand, right? But it's not just a language that I don't understand, it's shaping their worldview. Yes, right? Words like authentic and toxic, there are phrases that are used by culture that go viral, right? Yeah, that now that bring meaning and renarrate people's past. Gaslighting. Yes, yeah, that shapes generation, right? So that that's present. That's that's new language, right? That we're speaking. The literature is the endless scroll. Yeah. Where the stories you absorb about love, sex, success, ambition, the meaning of life, what it means to be a person, that's being narrated by Netflix, Disney, TikTok, Instagram, everything. That's that's part of what you're being, you're you're being fed these this new literature that's shaping your worldview.

SPEAKER_04

And you can tell that it's shaping the next generation. The things that our like some of our youth say, I'm like, oh my goodness, who are you listening to? No, really, like racist things, anti-Semitic things. I'm like, guys, get off of social media. Yes.

SPEAKER_06

There's even trends like of going no contact with your family, like things that affect like major parts of your life. Like going no contact has been a trend for kind of a long time. Not talking to your family, not talking to your family. You cut your parents off, and it's like an admirable thing where you go no contact and you just cut people off like it's nothing.

SPEAKER_02

There are reasons to hold boundaries when toxic or abusive realities are taking place. That's absolutely the case. But that idea, even that is about isolating you to curate your world, yeah, is self being the ideology we worship. Yeah. Versus like when you read scripture, there's no I there's no concept of like a self inner. It's all communal, right? Like you even the way you interpret scripture was always in a communal local church environment when it came to the New Testament. Old Testament is the people of God. Yeah, like it just that idea that I can like, it's just me, myself, and Jesus in the Bible. That's not a thing, or me, myself, and this podcast, like that doesn't work. You need a local church, right? We can teach you and you can have teachers, but you need to be a part of a local church, right? And I I will always push that. Um, but that's fascinating. But that that's exactly it. It's like these concepts online that shape like one thing I've I've seen um with younger people is when they when they're engaging in conversations with adults, they might bring up the YouTube uh YouTubers they follow, yeah. As as how they connect with the world is through their experience through online media versus their own experience. Like that's something that's new. Wow. Right. So because it's so constant, it's always in front of us. The fourth is the the new name. I think this is what this is interesting because I think the new name, like you know, Daniel becomes, you know, a Babylonian god name. We are in this world where we can we can imagine our own identity. We live in a world where we curate our identity, your username, your your you have the ability to curate an image right now. Aesthetic. Yes. Like, and I think about it, like, oh, we're so authentic, but we took a thousand selfies to make that authentic post that has 100 filters on it, yeah. That's been you know edited and airbrushed, and then and then, you know, so we we we're we're experiencing this real thing that took 17 pictures to capture it, then we filter it and then we broadcast it with the most thoughtful AI generated caption.

SPEAKER_03

Crazy.

SPEAKER_02

That's and then we're calling that like that's who we are. Like that, what?

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, and even like young girls fighting over whose phone is gonna be taking the photo as like a group picture, they'll fight over whose phone's gonna be it's gonna be taken on because they can edit it because they can afterwards, yeah. Which is insane.

SPEAKER_06

Okay, and these are what our teenagers are going to be one other thing, too, because this isn't even just happening in the world. I feel like what you just spoke to kind of happens within the Christian world as well, where things become an aesthetic rather than like a pursuit of holiness and righteousness. Like there's like a whole trend, and this is no shade to anybody online, but like there's a Proverbs 31 woman trend where it's become kind of an aesthetic where women it's become about like working out and making like meals at home that are aesthetic and taking a photo of your Bible with the highlighters rather than like a pursuit of the characteristics of a Proverbs 31 woman. So even in the Christian world, it's become this thing of aesthetic and performance rather than you know, Babylon's in the church.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, Babylon is in the church. Revelation talks about that, right? This is a threat to the seven churches that there is a way of empire, that it's the way of the dragon, not the way of the lamb. And the way of the lamb is self-sacrificial, it's humble, it's not noticed. Like in America, in the United States, we do large things famously as fast as possible. The kingdom of God does small things, mostly overlooked, over a long period of time. That is how Daniel transforms the empire, not through broadcasting his anti-Babylonian name, but by we'll see, by resolving in himself. Because the fifth thing, actually, I want to go off on this Proverbs 31 thing. Go off. I'm gonna flip some tables for a second. We need to do better. And people like yourself who have this massive platform, we just gotta do better because we participate in the problem when we curate that ourselves. Yep. And we perpetuate this perfectionism, this drive. Like my wife homeschools, she she cooks meals and she works and she led a church. And, you know, she's incredible. And it's incredibly costly. And if she was trying to broadcast that online, that would create an ideal that would destroy people. People have different grace, different capacity. And I cannot, I just we have to do better than than marketing ourselves on this platform and trying to invite people to be a part of it. Like that, we have to, we just have to do better. I don't know what the answer is. I do know that it, I don't think Jesus would be posting those things. I think, you know, uh Esther. And this Sunday we're talking about Tabitha, who is in Acts. Who what is she known for? Caring for the poor and widows. Making clothes. Making clothes. When she dies, the widows go, they show the clothes that she made. And Peter raises her back to life.

SPEAKER_04

Talk about a Proverbs 31 woman.

SPEAKER_02

That's a Proverbs 31 woman. She's not broadcasting it. Like her reputation is known by the people that matter.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, she wasn't trying to be known.

SPEAKER_02

She wasn't trying to be known. And and well, how is she known? She's known as a female disciple, the only female disciple named in the New Testament. She's given the feminine name and name of disciple. There's a masculine version of the word and a feminine version. And it's the feminine, it's the only time it's used. And how do I know? Lagos Bible Study App. Thank you, Lagos. Sponsoring this one, but we appreciate you. Get the Bible study app. Some of the stuff I'm going to talk about, I got all from the way I study scripture. But I will say, humility, doing things in the secret, like for the love, you don't need to post your Bible when you're doing quiet time. Can we? We don't need to do that. Be like the moment you do that, you you lost your reward. Jesus says, Oh, I'm going to go off.

SPEAKER_06

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

You want to pray? Go into the closet and close the door. When you open your phone, you're broadcasting to the world. What are you thinking? Why would you try to like market your prayer life? You lose all oil and power with Jesus. It's not intimacy. It's not intimacy. It's a show. Yeah. That's that is Babylon. That is Babylon. And you don't need to do that.

SPEAKER_06

What if sometimes I really like what I read and I want people to read it too?

SPEAKER_02

Here's the thing if it's in your quiet time, you shouldn't broadcast it. Like I we need a bunch of influencers. We need preachers and leaders who are not broadcasting the secrets that Jesus revealed to them.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, so true.

SPEAKER_02

Become a reservoir. Like in then 10 years, like there's a problem too. I see all these young guys that have lots of following. I'm just going to say it. And they're writing books at 20-something. Don't write books at 20-something. And look, no one, no one, if no one's told you that, don't be a person that has a million followers that's writing a book on theology in the Christian world. Wait till your late 30s and 40s. Here's why. You're probably going to write bad theology. It's so true. You're probably going to write with a very limited experience. When I auditioned for Juilliard, I studied acting and I'll never forget, I was 17, auditioned for Juilliard in San Francisco. They had San Francisco, Chicago, New York auditions. And I got called back in after I auditioned. There's like seven judges there and had to do like a Shakespeare monologue and all these monologues. And then we're doing all these things in the group. And then they called me back in and they said, Hey, we'd love for you to come back when your heart's broken.

SPEAKER_05

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

Come back in four years. Like, and I was like, Well, I wanted to go as a 17-year-old. They're like, go experience life. And I feel like for pastors, for leaders, like, come back after you have years of obscure, absurd, hidden life with God. That is true, right? I'm sorry for going off.

SPEAKER_06

This is so good. I've I think I've told this before, but like me and my best friend Ari, we've had offers for book deals thrown at us over the past few years, thrown at us because the second you have a platform, the second you have a little bit of following, write a book. Why would you not? And people do, yeah. And people will read it and they'll buy it. And like me and Ari have been so anti-writing books because we're like, we're not ready. For example, I at a show, I had a publisher approach me because I talked about shame one night at a GGB tour.

SPEAKER_02

Like, write a book.

SPEAKER_06

And there she came to me with this whole concept, you need to write a book on shame. And in my head, I'm like, I haven't even scratched the surface on my own personal journey with Jesus and shame. I'm not there. I don't know. I don't even have language to put to it yet. Why would I write a book when I haven't walked out my whole journey yet? You know?

SPEAKER_04

So that's what I tell our youth leaders is there are there's a difference between shallow leaders and deep leaders.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

And the and the shallow leaders have not dug a well with the Lord because they have and they have nothing to give. And you can feel it. And the students feel it because they're not going to them, they're not asking for advice. They're not, they're not like feasting on the food that was cultivated in the in the quiet time with the Lord. But you can tell when there's someone who has history with him. Yes. A deep, like you said, reservoir, a deep well. And it's not done through like better knowledge of scripture. It's not done through like better practices. It's it's done through the breaking and the quiet. Yeah. And people can sense it. Oh, there's life here. Yes. There's life in this person that I get to drink from. And they've been ahead of me, you know, five, 10 years before me, and they've they've seen things that I need to know. And so one of the main things that I tell our leaders are dig deep wells. Yeah. Dig deep, deep wells in the Lord and don't waste any pain. Don't waste any moment with him. And I think when you post it, you make it shallow immediately. Yes. Totally. That the water is just going to go through your hands.

SPEAKER_02

Well, it it's because I mean, I didn't grow up, I didn't start a church where social media was this dominant thing. Like I can't imagine starting a church or leading a church as a 20-something in the world of social media, YouTube. Like you didn't live stream. Like when I started preaching, there was no live stream. Yeah. Right. Like we recorded on Vimeo because I was the only place back in the day and it wasn't public. And so like I couldn't imagine learning how to preach in this world right now because it's way harder. And what you said is true. Like you learn one thing and you want to broadcast that one thing. And it's tempting as a young leader. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

I compare myself to the other leaders that are doing similar things, young adults, youth, whatever. I'm like, oh, I'm not posting the way that they are. And I feel this like insecurity, which is Babylon.

SPEAKER_02

It's babble. Yeah. Wow. Well, and it's it's it's competing and comparison. And I tell you all the time, I'm like, hey, you don't need to worry about that yet. Time's coming. Like the time will come when God will use all of the hidden things and put them out for the world to see. And the reason I say it is because I was I was formed by Pastor Bill Doctrum, who's a teaching pastor at our church. He's my pastor. We're bringing him on as Gen Z says. And a couple, yeah. Goaded. Yeah. So, you know, 20, he's been in my life for 22 years and forming me, pastoring me, walking through with my wife and I for years. And he he taught me this, but he gave he introduced me to Dallas Willard and Eugene Peterson and Tim Keller. And, you know, these pastors of the previous generation that talked about waiting. Like Eugene Peterson waited years to write. You know, he wasn't really writing to the end of his 27-year tenure at his one church. Uh, same with Tim Keller. Timothy Keller, Dr. Tim Keller didn't write until his, I think, late 40s or 50s, I think. And we need we need young generation to take take that on and to wait. Can we also say Jesus did that? Jesus. Oh, yeah. Jesus.

SPEAKER_04

The King of Kings, Lord of Lords, 30 years. He didn't even write. He didn't even write. Isn't that crazy? He could have written.

SPEAKER_02

So I just didn't. Anyways, I think that's important to think about as we as we talk about this. Let me get to point five. The new food that they're introduced to in Babylon, I think for us is so clear. It's the content we feast on. You know, we call it a feed for a reason. Babylon doesn't need to march or besiege anyone anymore. Babylon is snuck in. You're the palace of Babylon, it's right here on our phone. And, you know, Nebuchadnezzar probably would dream of having the kind of power we give this ourselves access to all the time. Well, it does besiege us. It besieges us.

SPEAKER_04

If it insulates us. Like you talked about a few weeks ago in your act sermon, the word amazement. Can you talk about that a little bit? Yes. And Simon the Sorcerer.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. So um yeah, the word uh uh uh oh yeah, the word amazed in Acts chapter eight, uh, Simon, the sorcerer, it the phrase amaze is used all over the place. You know, I was doing word studies on different words when I studied to teach, and it it literally means to be like astonished, uh wowed essentially, but it means to lose one's senses.

SPEAKER_06

Wow.

SPEAKER_02

And and what was amazing the city in Samaria at the time was uh Simon doing having magical powers and and basically uh displacing people and moving them out of their senses. And what I mean, so what my my point was like what what was sorcery and magic, which is this idea of like supernatural power, you know, amazing people, helping them lose their sense of of time or their senses. We we have that today. It's just technology, it's addictive technology, it's the same thing as sorcery back in the day, where addictive technology is you being on Netflix and you thought you're just gonna watch one more, but now it's 2 a.m. and you watched an entire season, you lost the sense of time because of this power that is right in front of us. It besieges you, it besieges us. That's so good. So Daniel is being influenced by all these things, and he becomes for us a model for redeeming culture. Daniel doesn't survive Babylon. And I think this is so important for the church right now. And I want to talk about Gen Z and Gen Alpha because I think that's what's happened in the millennial. I'm a millennial growing up, it was kind of like survive culture. So it's all about retreating. Let's create, like, we got to survive it. Interesting. And I actually think there's something happening right now with the next generation that's not about surviving, but winning. Winning, winning the culture. Like Daniel wins the Babylonians. He doesn't win them because he protests the way they're forming him. He wins them because he offers a countercultural lifestyle, a redemptive lifestyle. Yep. Um that that brings, he, he brings salt and light to the system by living within the system. Yep. He's within the system and he becomes salt and light. And that system doesn't absorb him, he infiltrates them, which we'll talk about.

SPEAKER_04

But yeah, I think we what we're seeing right now in Gen Z is definitely a move of God as a whole. What what's happening right now is that the people, the Gen Z who are within the church, I'm Gen Z, so I'm I'm a part of this. I can't just say how old are you? I'm 27. Yeah. I know I got a lot of gray hair.

SPEAKER_06

Hey, I'm Gen Z, right?

SPEAKER_04

29. No, no, no.

SPEAKER_02

You're like the zelenia. You're like the you're in the bridge. You want to be it, but you're you're my generation.

SPEAKER_04

Are we the same generation? Yeah, I'm sorry. Yeah. But I'm like the beginning of millennial. I'm a Gen Zer growing up in a millennial world. So I love third wave coffee and all that. But yeah, so I'm not just speaking from uh, you know, pole statistic uh thing, you know, what as a lot of boardrooms like to do. Um, this is lived experience.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04

God is doing something beautiful in Gen Z right now. And I think Asbury was a sign. Um, I was able to go. It was just so like, like I mentioned before, I had been contending for revival since I was six years old. My like, yeah, I just remember praying, contending. I remember my brother waking up at 5 a.m. Uh, we shared a room. He wake up in the morning at 5 a.m., go into the bathroom and just pray uh for God to bring revival while he was in high school. And so when I heard inklings about what was happening at Asbury, I just started to weep. I'm like, God, you're doing something. And so when I got there, it was clearly a move of God. Anyone who wants to make headlines out of it, oh, like put nuance behind it. No, no, no. If you were in the room, God was there and doing something. Yeah. And it was a signpost, I believe, for what God is doing at the in the church as a whole. He is, he is turning the hearts of Gen Z on fire for him. They are going to church more. The the church, Gen Z are going to church more than any other generation since the Civil War. And they are, they love God's presence. They love him more than anything. They don't care about the gimmicks or the lights or the show or how well you can sing it at Asbury. I wouldn't have hired any of those worship leaders at Garden. They're amazing. If you're hearing this and you were leading worship there, I'm sorry. But uh, it was great. It was, it was just God's presence is here. And what happened at SEU, and I got to be there, Pastor Darren sent me and another staff member from from Garden to go and experience it. Same thing, like God's presence, just a hunger for him. And it's it's so beautiful to see because this is what we have been praying for for a long time. And it's happening.

SPEAKER_02

That's right. Well, I think there's there's something beautiful about that. Like the redemptive presence. What I what I was getting at with Daniel is there's like this inner conviction, right? And what we're seeing with Gen Z is not a needing to survive like culture. I think they've been fed so much untruth and confusion and chaos, yes, that they are actually so hungry for truth. Like people have asked me, because our church has grown a lot, which I don't equate to anything we do. But if they're like, okay, what are the things that you're doing where you're seeing all these people come? I'm like, well, we take communion, we receive communion every week. Maybe that's what's going on. We preach like verse by verse through the Bible. Like, we're not preaching topically, we're preaching, you know, we preach all of Revelation, we're preaching now the book of Acts. We'll get through Acts. It'll take about a year and a half to get through, and then we'll probably preach on Romans or Ephesians after that. And we'll go verse by verse through these books. But who's coming? Like, there's a new generation of people coming and they're hungry for that. And that's what's so fascinating. Is like in the past, it was like, hey, you need to, you know, like water down the sermon or like don't do services that are too long. Like our services will go for an hour and 45 minutes. Like transitions, yeah. Everything. Yeah, like you gotta make it soft. You gotta have like go to the movies. Okay. That that's changed. Like they're the next generation wants the real thing.

SPEAKER_06

You're so right. And I can speak from experience of what it's been like having a platform that reaches a lot of people who are churched, who grew up in church, but then so much of our audience are they're new believers, they're people who have been living in sin, living in the world their whole lives, and they are so responsive to truth. Yeah. Like I'm here to tell you guys from what I've seen, people are responsive to truth, brutal truth. Yes. We have so many stories, Ari and I literally we say the word repent almost every episode. Right. We say that we tell people to turn away from sin every episode, and we say it in the most honest way. I just heard a story recently. A friend of mine told me that a guy that she used to be friends with when she was younger called her and said, I need you to tell me about this whole Jesus thing because I'm not understanding. My girlfriend of two years, who I was gonna marry, who I love so much, she loved me. All of a sudden, she started watching this podcast called Girls Gone Bible. And they were saying on the podcast that she needs to stop having sex before marriage. She needs to not live with her boyfriend. She broke up with me, moved out, is now following Jesus, and doesn't want anything to do with our relationship. Sorry, guy. Um, hopefully that you know leads him to the Lord. But like people are moving out of their boyfriend's house and they're not having sex and they're not crossing physical boundaries because we literally say, This is the road that leads to life. That's right. This is what leads to life. And so people are more responsive to truth than we think they are.

SPEAKER_02

Yes. And I think the next generation doesn't need to be talked down to, like it needs to be less content or less exegesis or like deep Bible study. They need to be trained now as partners and in the ministry, Gen Z and Alpha, like right now, like you're empowering your youth to preach, to peers. Like that's that's the kind of ministry that's going to flourish right now. 100%.

SPEAKER_06

And I think as leaders, if you assume that the people want what you're telling them, which they do deep down, they might not know it, they'll receive it better. I think when we approach things in a way that's like, oh, well, this is what the Bible says, and I know it's annoying. No, talk to them like Philip, like the way that you do, or like Philip Anthony Mitchell, where you you're so passionate about what you're teaching, they're gonna receive it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, 100%. I it's funny, I had this experience because I grew up in learning to preach in a context where it was there's you're you're always speaking to like the it wasn't deconstruction back then, but it became like the deconstructing Christian or the skeptical. And you gotta, you gotta like use reason and which of course you're using like we gotta speak to the various people that are in the room. Yeah, and I would I would always preach, throw these, you know, um, and I would have those people in mind. And this is probably like nine months ago, a year ago. I was preaching passionately, but then I would like throw an aside to the person on the outside. I would include these illustrations to try to like draw everyone in the room. And a pastor that had been coming for for only a couple months, who has led huge ministry around the world, came and we had lunch, and he was like, Hey, you reminded me of something that I was doing. And Oral Roberts told me to stop doing it. Another goat, another goated. Umral Roberts said, Stop preaching to people who aren't in the room and preach to the people that are in the room. And this pastor grabbed me, he's like, Darren, right now there's something going on where there's you're you're the people coming are hungry. Preach to the hunger. And it was a it was like, yeah, you're right. Like there's a shift right now. And I want to say that to everyone listening that has influence in the next generation. They're hungry and they need people who are passionate about the word of God and the presence of Jesus and the Holy Spirit, and and have um courage to to deal with the things they're dealing with, to talk about the issues, to preach to those things, to call them to repentance and to partnership in the ministry now. Like that's what we need. Yeah. Because I love this line. I just want to I want to make sure I say this because it's part of this text. Daniel chapter one, eight. Daniel resolved not to defile himself with the royal food and wine. And he asked the chief official for permission not to defile himself. You cannot decide who you are in the moment of pressure. You decide before the pressure ever arrives. The Hebrew, the Hebrew word for resolved is this word that means to set down, to place, to lay something as a foundation. It's the same word in the Old Testament that's used when somebody lays a stone on an altar. Daniel did not just decide, he laid a decision down like a stone in the bedrock of his soul long before the food showed up. The foundation had already been poured inside of his soul. And that's how you thrive in Babylon. That's not how you survive, that's how you thrive. Because the moment will come and it happens too fast. It will be too loud. It will be, there'll be too much dopamine rush for you to follow a conviction that you had that wasn't fully decided at that point. You have to decide to stand before while you're sitting down to stand against the things that will shape you, knowing that. Because otherwise you'll try to white knuckle Babylon and you won't have the capacity to do that.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Daniel was shaped by Josiah's reformation. So he had muscle memory of what it means to pray, of what it means to worship, of what it means to remain faithful to Yahweh when there's food that doesn't look like the food you're supposed to eat. And this whole chapter is about Daniel confronting the Babylon culture with wisdom. And he chooses not to feed on the king's feast. And and the apologetic that Babylon witnesses is the healthy body, is the healthy soul. This is like I and what I just want to say, this is not like an argument for going vegetarian. Yeah, that's not in the diet. This isn't a diet. Yeah, they take it, they take it. Okay, this is the healthier diet, is not to eat. I mean, that's not what's being taught here. The the food would have been sacrificed to idols. Yeah, and he's saying, I'm not gonna participate in the idolatry of consuming the food. And God blesses that decision with physical health, and that becomes an apologetic to people of power. Yeah, I just want to highlight this and we can come back to it because I I geek out on the Bible and I was doing a word study um on this in this in the app, and it says in Daniel chapter one, verse nine, now God had caused the official to show favor and compassion to Daniel. Now, you just read that in the NIV, which I love the NIV, that's what I use. But I always I go to the Hebrew to understand. So I clicked on in in the Lagos Bible study app, I clicked on the word favor, and I was shocked by the translation. The word is Hesed. Hesed is the word for covenantal kindness or love. It is the most common word to describe Yahweh. Yahweh is Hesed. And the other word compassion is the word for what a mom feels for her unborn child as it's in the womb. It means wombish, it's compassion. It's also the other word that's used most often to describe what God feels towards Israel. What does God feel towards Israel? Hesed and compassion. These two Hebrew words are used to describe the Babylonian official, how he feels towards Daniel. Wild. Crazy. Like you miss that, and you're like, oh, favor and kindness. Oh, you're like compassion. No, no, no. God is at work in Babylon. Yeah. And God is at work in your workplace. Yes. God is at work in your school. So if you're Gen Z, if you're Gen Alpha and you're listening to this, maybe you are, or you're, you know, you're in a workplace right now and you're like, I don't know. God doesn't work, He doesn't just want you to win the workplace. He's gonna show you favor with one person. Yes. And that person's gonna be a person of peace that will shape the whole direction of that industry you're in. It doesn't happen through work. Winning Hollywood, it happens through winning Sam, who's the screenwriter. It happens through Bobby, or you know, whatever name you want to use. Happens through people because God works in relationships and Daniel's resolution, his laying of a foundation brought favor to one person and it'll eventually leave favor to another person that catches his eye. Nebuchadnezzar will get him to site uh the king, um, uh uh uh the uh cyrus, yes, yes, Cyrus, Darius, yeah, Darius. And and he's and and and that will influence a future generation of Nehemiah who will hear about the walls not being built, and he'll cry in the presence of a different king who was influenced by the previous generation of Daniel, who was a teenager at the time who influenced the kings of kings. So good impartation.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah, I want your memory.

SPEAKER_04

And as our friend Pete Hughes says, right, he he there's a prophecy, I forget which book you can remind me that you should plant vineyards and gardens in Babylon. Jeremiah. Jeremiah. This is Jeremiah. Yeah, Jeremiah. Yeah, yeah. Can you speak to that a little bit?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, so Jeremiah, the for I know the plans I have for you.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, right, right. Right?

SPEAKER_02

That's the verse let's take it out of context. It was a promise when when the Israelites were going into exile, Jeremiah says, Hey, your future's great. Yeah, but you're gonna spend 70 years in captivity to plant vineyards, have gardens, build homes, marry off your daughters, to pray for the welfare of that city. Because when when they thrive, we'll thrive. And what happens is Nehemiah comes back and he brings the wealth of that of that conquering community, and he uses the wealth of that community to rebuild the walls of Israel. Yeah, I mean, that's that's God, God's redemptive plan. And it doesn't happen because there's a campaign against Babylon. Yes, it happens because a teenager resolves not to defile himself.

SPEAKER_05

Wow.

SPEAKER_04

We're not here to destroy Babylon, we're here to redeem it.

SPEAKER_02

We're redeeming it, and God wants to redeem Daniel's. And here's what I think I think this Gen Z and Alpha, there are Josiahs, there are Daniels, and there are Nehemiahs that need to be in power. There are Josiahs who will bring about reformation to the communities that they're in, the churches, like you're a Josiah for your for our generation, and you're bringing a reformation that there'll be Daniel's and Nehemiah's. There'll be people who will be prophetic witnesses in different contexts that will bring about the redemption of those contexts, and there'll be Nehemiahs who will rebuild and repair the walls of future generations because of the work that's being done in the secret place.

unknown

So crazy.

SPEAKER_02

So good. Let it be, Lord. I've got like 10 points. I got four down. Hey, the Lord is so kind. This was good. I appreciate it.

SPEAKER_06

This was one of my favorite episodes.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, thank you for being with us. We hope that this blesses you. Read Daniel chapter one. Keep reading the book. It's amazing. If you want more resources, we actually have a free trial for Logos Bible study app. Again, they're not sponsoring this one, but I just am such a fan and I want everyone to be on the app to read and get resources, to learn the Bible, to study scripture for the for yourselves, to be a part of a community that loves the scripture and supports it. Hopefully, we're doing that for you, that you get excited from listening on YouTube or wherever you listen to this, but also you go and you read and you you jump into the word. So thanks for being with us.

SPEAKER_06

Thanks, love. Thanks for having me. That was such a good episode. Thank you guys. We love you so much.