What the Bible reveals about true Worship — With Lindy Cofer

The first time worship is mentioned in the Bible, a father is asked to offer his only son on an altar. That single scene in Genesis 22 becomes the archetype for everything worship means for the rest of Scripture. This episode traces that thread through Leviticus, Romans 12, and Revelation 4, and makes the case that knowing what worship actually is changes everything about how you live it.

In this episode:
• Genesis 22 and the principle of first mention — why the first time a word appears in Scripture sets the pattern for everything after
• Why Abraham's response of worship is wholehearted trust, not naive obedience
• Leviticus and the sacrificial system — why every sacrifice was about drawing near to God, not earning his favor
• Living sacrifices crawl off the altar — a practical framework for noticing what has quietly stopped being an offering to God
• The difference between worship songs and Christian music — and why that distinction matters more than people think
• Lindy's story from the mission field with Heidi Baker — when nothing in her toolkit worked except knowing who Jesus is
• Revelation 4 and the throne room of heaven — what is actually at the center of all reality

SPONSOR
This series is brought to you with the support of Logos Bible Software — the tool all three of us use when studying Scripture. Whether you want to go deeper in a passage, explore word studies, or dive into commentaries, Logos puts everything in one place. You can try it free for 60 days through our partner link below.

📖 Try Logos free for 60 days: https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst

Hosted by:
• Pastor Darren Rouanzoin — https://www.instagram.com/darrenr
• Angela Halili — https://www.instagram.com/angelahalili
• Lindy Cofer — https://www.instagram.com/lindy_cofer

#BibleStudy #Worship #ChristianPodcast #Faith #Jesus #BibleStudyPodcast

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

It's very jacket with your filling.

SPEAKER_06 0:03

If you wanna wear your other sort of thing, rolling over the room. It should be rolling.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Welcome back to the Bible study podcast. I'm Darren.

SPEAKER_06 0:12

I'm Ange.

SPEAKER_02 0:12

And I'm Lindy. We have Lindy. Lindy. So excited.

SPEAKER_00 0:15

In the house. We are talking about worship. Yeah. So we're going to continue with our topic of worship. I want to jump in with something that we ended our first podcast with you on Romans chapter 12. Yes. Verse 1. I'll read it right now. Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God. This is your true and proper worship. And I thought we could camp out here for a little bit for lots of reasons, try to try to understand what worship is. We talked a little bit about worship being a response, like in view of God's mercy, but but worship is clearly a sacrifice. He's talking about presenting ourselves as a sacrifice, and that's a significant claim. But in the last episode, or I don't I don't know the orders of them. So in one of the episodes, I talked about that this is a massive transition in the book of Romans because the weight of the therefore. So if you're studying scripture, I love to tell students whenever there's a therefore, ask the question what is it there for?

SPEAKER_06 1:19

Oh there you go.

SPEAKER_00 1:21

There you go. You can give that to GGB.

SPEAKER_06 1:23

Yep, yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:23

I'll straighten that all of them. Paul opens chapter 12, and it is the massive transition. So if you've ever read Romans, which is a an amazing letter that is presenting the gospel to Rome, it's actually the purpose of it is a fundraising letter. So all of you missionaries listening out there, it is used as a fundraising letter because Paul writes Romans because he's gonna he wants to visit Rome so that he could go to Spain. That's kind of the intention. But that little, you know, fundraising letter turns to be this theological juggernaut of what Paul probably taught churches wherever he planted. And so he gives them this letter. But chapter 12 is this massive transition from what Paul, how Paul writes. So this is just I'm I'm a nerd on this stuff, but Paul has a style of writing and it's the indicative followed by the imperative. So if you read any of his letters, it's the indicative. Here is what God has done. Here is who God is and what God has done for you in Christ. And here's the imperative. Here's how you respond, which by the way is worship. Here's what God has done. Now we respond. And we talked about this that we don't need God to show up today to answer our prayers of daily bread. We have enough content for worship for the all of eternity because of the cross. So that is the indicative, and the imperative is what we do in response to who God is and what he's done, which is why he says, in view of God's mercy. I want to just say, in view of God's mercy, is not like this naive passive, like, oh, God was just being merciful.

SPEAKER_03 2:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:58

Um God, God, Paul lays out this argument. So can I read some passages from Romans, Romans, real quick? In Romans 1, Paul says in verse 18, the wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people who suppress the truth by their wickedness. The wrath of God is being held back against the godlessness. Romans 5, he just builds this case. But God, verse 8, God demonstrates his own love for us in this. While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

SPEAKER_05 3:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Romans 6 23, for the wages of sin is death. You talked about this, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

SPEAKER_06 3:43

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

Romans 8, therefore, there's no condemnation for those that are in Christ Jesus. Romans 8.15, the spirit you receive does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again. Rather, the spirit you receive brought about your adoption to sonship. By him we cry, Abba Father. Romans 8 28. And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him who have been called according to his purposes. On and on and on for 11 chapters. This is the mercy he says God has given us. And this is the indicative, right? The mercy is that you were storing up wrath. God was storing up wrath, but Christ absorbed it.

SPEAKER_03 4:28

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 4:28

The mercy is that you were dead to sin and the Spirit raised you back to life. The mercy is that you were a slave, but now you're a son or a daughter. The mercy is knowing that creation has been separated from the love of God. But now, in view of God's mercy, all that He's done, our response is to present our lives on the altar.

SPEAKER_03 4:48

Wow. Yes.

unknown 4:49

Woo!

SPEAKER_00 4:50

That's Romans in a nutshell. There you go.

SPEAKER_03 4:53

Honestly.

SPEAKER_00 4:55

And then he's going to go off for the next several chapters to say this is what worship looks like. And it's going to, he's here's here's what you're going to do. Here's you're going to present your life as a living sacrifice. That word living sacrifice, that word sacrifice is a category embedded into the Hebrew consciousness that comes from Genesis chapter four, when Cain and Abel build an altar to bring a sacrifice. It moves to Noah, building an altar to the Lord after the flood. And then it really comes into the picture in Genesis 22, when Abraham climbs the mountain to build an altar to offer his son on the altar. And then it becomes a system in Leviticus of what it looks like to offer worship to the Lord.

SPEAKER_06 5:41

So the first time we hear the word worship is in Genesis 22, right?

SPEAKER_00 5:45

Yes, the first time the words as worship is it is an altar. Yes. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 5:51

In Genesis 18, it's mentioned. I always have to say that for the comments. Like it's mentioned in Genesis 18, but it wasn't translated to worship. Yeah. Genesis 22 is the first time it's translated to worship.

unknown 6:02

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 6:02

And so you do, you have to ask yourself the question, like, what is worship? What is worship? How is God setting the context for worship?

SPEAKER_00 6:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 6:09

In all of scripture. And I mentioned this in a previous or in another episode about how just innocently, when I heard about the principle of first mention, I automatically was like Explain this. I love this. So this is so important.

SPEAKER_00 6:22

What's the pr the principle of first mention? Principle of first mention.

SPEAKER_02 6:25

It's when I read it the first time, it was in layman's term, it was like the first time something is mentioned, it's purposeful. There's a reason why it's mentioned there, and it's setting context for that for the rest of Scripture.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

So this is great. Let me let me give an example outside real quick. So for God so loved the world, he gave his one and only son. Yeah. Okay, so you read the word love in John chapter 3.16, the most quoted verse, probably of all the Bible.

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

When is love first mentioned? In the Bible. Now, here's what you you do with the principle of first mention. You take, and this is what the Jewish community did as well with the Hebrew Bible, is they take the first mention, and that becomes the archetype for all future mentions. So John 3.16 is for God so love the world. Well, where is it first mentioned? Genesis 22.

SPEAKER_06 7:07

Love.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

Take your son, your only son, whom you love, Isaac. I know I knew I was gonna get this reaction. It's the same context.

SPEAKER_02 7:15

Stop.

SPEAKER_00 7:16

So in the Jewish mind, a father's love for a son is the greatest and the archetype for love for the scripture.

SPEAKER_06 7:25

I love the if you if reading in the Bible isn't the most exciting part of your day, you're not doing it right, you guys.

SPEAKER_02 7:33

I was ready for you to be like in Genesis 3.

SPEAKER_06 7:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:37

It's this moment.

SPEAKER_06 7:38

So this moment is so much in Genesis 22. It's one of my favorite chapters of the entire I would.

SPEAKER_00 7:43

And it's hard to understand, but that moment becomes the revolutionary concept of what love looks like. The highest form of love.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Unbelievable.

SPEAKER_00 7:52

Is a father's love for a son. Now, and then and they categorize it like a husband's love for a wife. It's different in the Jewish belief system. But so think about Jesus and the father's love for Jesus and the beloved, the scripture where you know heaven opens this is my beloved son. But also when we get to John, John 3.16, we we have the the pulling back of the entire narrative of Genesis 22. Oh, yeah. As the framework for John 3.16. Anyways, we can do eight part. We can do eight. I'm gonna do eight-week series at the garden at some point on John 3.16.

SPEAKER_02 8:24

Yes, absolutely. And okay, gosh. That just took everything to the next level. So principle first mention. Yeah, principle first mention. So you basically you have a lot of context being set in the scripture. Yes. It is something worth, even after listening to this episode, to dive into yourself and go, Lord, what are you revealing in this scripture? Because God has asked, let me back up and say this. A lot of worship, podcasts or teaching, we'll go Genesis 22, the first time worship is mentioned. Okay, it's mentioned in obeying God, sacrificing, trusting who God is. Yes. That's a great teaching. It's a biblical teaching, but you got to look at the whole verse. You got to look at the whole story. And that's what I'm like, that's where we've got to finish the teaching on this for a generation to disciple what worship is. Because if you do not let the Bible interpret what worship is, culture will. And so what you have here is God asking for what is most precious to Abraham, the promise he's waited for. Not just like, hey, one of your 10 kids. No, no, no. That's not what's happening here. This is the promise he has waited for. Sacrifice your son, your only son. And he says, immediate, right? We talked about this another time too. Immediate response. What does Abraham know about God? Come on. His character, his nature, like he is immersed in who God is to respond that way and go, I trust you, even though that had to have been, I wish we could see his face. I wish we could have seen his face in his response to God. Because I would imagine it wasn't just like, thank you, yes, Lord, I'll go up on this mountain. That that yes, there is sacrifice in that yes. And then he they go up on the mountain, he says, wait here while I go worship. And that's we see this. Worship is now introduced in the context of wholehearted faith, obedience, trust, and who God is. Wow. And you go, all right, we know what's happening, but on on the way up, imagine Isaac.

SPEAKER_00 10:26

He's not a little kid. No, he's not a little kid. He's aware.

SPEAKER_02 10:29

Yeah, he's aware. What's this? What are we bringing in? Where's the sacrifice? Yeah. What's going on?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

He's carrying the wood on his back. This is all foreshadow for Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 10:38

All the foreshadow for Jesus. But then you keep going. We we know how it ends. God provides the ram in the bush, but then he says, Now I know you will. This is the part where I'm like, withhold nothing. Now I know you fear my name.

SPEAKER_00 10:53

That's because you did not withhold.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

You withheld nothing. Now I know you fear my name because you withheld nothing. And I go, oh, let that be our prayer. This is the prayer of laying a foundation for worship in our churches, in our lives, in our families, in our homes. Lord, teach me how to fear your name that I would withhold nothing. Because I am so anchored in your character and your nature that my heart cry would be, Lord, teach me how to fear the Lord. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. Friendship with God is for those who fear Him. There is just so much scripture you can unfold here to turn into your prayer life.

SPEAKER_00 11:33

I love it.

SPEAKER_02 11:34

And when you keep going, then it's like, then what happens? Well, as many as the sand is on the seashore, so will be your inheritance. And so then as you unpack this and exactly what you're saying, if this becomes the ark, you look at everyone's lives differently and their heart cries to the Lord. You look at Mary, the mother of Jesus. What a heart cry of worship. I'm a bondservant. You see the real worship songs that formed what worship is. I'm a bondservant of the Lord. Let it be done to me according to your word. And to me, it's like the highest praise you can sing to Jesus is Father, not my will, but yours be done. That is the greatest love song that you can pour at the feet of Jesus. And it is the ark back to that's what Abraham sang. Not my will, but yours be done. I will go. I will go. That's Mary. Not my will, but yours be done. I'm a bondservant of the Lord. And then it's like Jesus comes with the final anthem in the Garden of Gethsemane. And I'm like, man. And then now you've got the New Testament unpacking it. You've got Paul unpacking what we have seen demonstrated through the lives of what's happening in the Old Testament. And then this everything that happens and in John 4 and what happened at the cross. And it's like we are in a story of God forming worship in us.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

And then you peer into heaven from John's perspective in Revelation. And it is the throne is organized around worship. So there's there's the theme is so good. I want to go back, I want to look at context for a second. Because for those that are new to faith, they're like, wow, Genesis 22, archaic. Yeah, yeah. God requires a sacrifice of a son. What is going on? I just want to say in the ancient Near East, you never knew where you stood with the gods. Right. So contextually, the gods were distant. They were absent. They were detached. They were demanding. They were constantly needed to be a people.

SPEAKER_02 13:27

Yeah, yep.

SPEAKER_00 13:27

Right. So you don't know what to offer. So if you want your crops to grow, you offer to the crop god, the rain god, the sun god, more and more sacrifice. And you'd offer a goat, you'd offer a lamb, you'd offer a cow, and then you'd offer more cows, and you just keep going, going, going with the sacrifices because in religion, in general, religion doesn't communicate where you stand with God.

SPEAKER_06 13:47

Right.

SPEAKER_00 13:48

So religion in the ancient world was always escalating because anxiety to please the gods who are angry kept demanding more. Or you get a glimpse of this with Elijah, right? Elijah's on the mountaintop with the prophets of Assarah and Baal, and they're marching around. It's as they cut themselves. Oh, they're literally cutting themselves so that they can get an answer from Baal. And Elijah is like, is your God taking a nap? Where are you at? Dump some water on the offering, and the fire comes down. It reveals who God is. Our God is always listening. You can't do more to earn. He's always present. And this is what happens. So in the ancient Near East, at the time that Abraham is living this experience, the most valuable thing you could offer is what you'd offer the gods as a sacrifice. The most valuable thing that Abraham had was his inheritance through his son Isaac, the promise. And religion is ended in a moment. Because the place that is shocking in the ancient Near East in Genesis 22 is that God is not like the other gods that demand these kinds of sacrifices. Our God provides the sacrifice.

unknown 14:59

Woo!

SPEAKER_00 14:59

Genesis 22 is a foreshadow where we see a ram in a thicket. There's a substitute to appease what's required in the sacrifice. This is a foreshadow that's going to come in the life of Jesus, but it's also a foreshadow if you really look at Leviticus. I just want to because I love the Old Testament. I love, I love the Bible. But if you go to Leviticus, which obviously is everyone's favorite book, endless instructions on how to give sacrifices. There's the burnt offering, there's the grain offering, there's the peace offering, there's a sin offering, there's the guilt offering, verse after verse after verse. There's what to do with the fat, what to do with the loins, what to do with the long lobe and the liver and the blood, and lots and lots and lots of blood. And if people read Leviticus and they just skip through it and they bounce through it, and what you don't understand is how revolutionary it was in the first, the ancient nearest context. It says in Leviticus, it says chapter one, verse one, the Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting. He said, Speak to the Israelite, Israelites and say to them, When anyone among you brings an offering to the Lord, bring as your offering an animal from either the herd or the flock. Now, the word offering is Corbin and it means to draw near. So the the what you're bringing as an offering means to draw near to God in the Old Testament in ancient in Hebrew. And the meaning of the word is to draw near. So stop just for a moment and feel that. When you want to draw near to God, in the Old Testament, this was not a detached namaste, get your mind in a meditative state. When you draw near to God, he's giving you a way to get close to him. Thousands of years ago, Yahweh wants to give you capacity to get close to him. What was that? The sacrificial system. God didn't want to keep humanity separate. He gave them through the law a way to get near. That's the whole point.

SPEAKER_03 16:53

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

The sacrificial system was not a way to earn favor with God, it was a way to draw near and stay close to him. And there's five sacrifices. I just want to go off because this is so good. Each one of these requires a different sacrifice for a different occasion. Each one was about drawing near. So the burnt offering was a way to atone for sin. The worshipper stood at the altar to bring their offering and they watched the animal that identified as their own to be killed. Its blood was manipulated, and the whole victim per burned on the altar and ascended in flames to the God they were worshiping. The grain offering was thanksgiving, and it was brought as an offering after the sins were forgiven. You bring this to show what got gratitude for what God has done. The peace offering was a meal that was shared between friends and family when there was a dispute or something. You prepared a meal, you organized it, you set it up so you could share in the offering of forgiveness between each other. The thanksgiving offering was a free offering of gratitude that was a blessing to that God didn't require of you that you give as a spontaneity, a spontaneous offering to the Lord. And the guilt offering was one of those categories of sin that required a full restitution. It's all over the Leviticus. These offerings, the purpose. Now, what's stunning about the system is this all the other religions, all the other deities, all the other gods, you never knew where you stood with God.

SPEAKER_01 18:15

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 18:16

But in the Old Testament, the offerings provided a way where every person knew where they stood with God. Did something happen a few days ago? Well, there was a way you could bring an offering to get right with God. You bring a sacrifice. You didn't have to live with anxiety. What does God think of me? You provided sacrifice to atone for the sin. That's what happens. One commentator writes, The sacrifices in Leviticus were not Israel's way of climbing up to God, they were God's gracious provision for how unholy people could come close to a holy God and live. This is how sacrifice worked. Now I just want to finish this and we can go off. The worshiper brought an animal into the tabernacle court. Standing in front of the priest, he placed his hand on the animal's head, thereby identifying himself with the animal. This is who I am. He confessed his sins and stated the reason for the offering. Then the worshiper killed the animal himself with his own hands. He cut it up, the priest burned it on the great bronze altar. Some sacrifices, the whole animals burned, some the priest got a portion, some the worshiper and the family shared a meal. But in every case, the worshiper killed the animal from his own flock with his own hands. Why? Because sacrifice expressed in the vivid, most tangible, bloody way the cost of sin and the worshipper's responsibility for their own sin. The animal represented the worshiper. The animal died so that the worshiper could live. As the worshiper killed the animal, he was forced to remember that the sin would have caused his own death had God not provided an escape. That's worship in the old covenant. It's not pleasant, it's not entertainment, it's not therapy, it's not sitting in a crowd, listen to your favorite worship leader, hit that note and cause that emotional reaction. It's embodied, bloody, costly in front of a holy God. Sacrifice means you don't come empty-handed. Sacrifice means it costs you something. Sacrifice means you bring your very best. You don't bring your leftovers from the week. It's not easy, it's not convenient, and it's not comfortable, it's never safe, it's always messy because that's the nature of sacrifice. Therefore, present your bodies as a living sacrifice.

SPEAKER_02 20:30

Shut up. That is. And when you understand everything you just explained about the offerings, the sacrifice, the more you understand how God set things up in the Old Testament, the more powerful the revelation of the ultimate sacrifice. Absolutely. The lamp slain. Yes. It's not just a uh one-dimensioned reality. It is multifaceted. When you say the ultimate sacrifice and what Jesus paid, and you understand all this, you go, whoa, whoa, whoa.

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 21:03

Like this is this changes everything.

SPEAKER_00 21:06

And all of that old testament. This is why like Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament. He's the fulfillment of Israel. Yes. Not the replacement. He's the fulfillment. He is the fulfillment of time. And you get in in the life of Jesus, in the death of Jesus on the cross, in the resurrection, you get the fulfillment of all things. Genesis 22 is pointing to this the story, the archetype of what worship looks like, of what sacrifice looks like, of what love looks like. Leviticus becomes this unique book in the Torah that is preparing an unholy people for living with a holy God in the desert, in the wilderness, in for years before they build a temple when they have the tabernacle. But that becomes an archetype. So when Jesus comes into Jerusalem on that day on a donkey, where through the gate that they bring the Passover lambs through to fulfill the Passover meal as the symbol of the Passover lamb, when he goes through all All of the things that the Passover Lamb would have gone through and becomes our Passover. He becomes our way out. He becomes the way that the sacrificial system is fulfilled. That we don't have to go to a temple. We don't have to go before a man priest. We now have a high priest. We now have a once and for all sacrifice. We now have to become the living. We now respond to what has been done, not as religion. We know where we stand. What how do we know? God so loved the world that he gave his one and only son. Now we live in response to that mercy every single day. So what is our living sacrifice? It's our everyday life.

SPEAKER_01 22:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 22:37

Put before God on that altar. And I just want to say I don't know if you've ever changed a diaper. Like a living sacrifice is way harder than a dead sacrifice.

SPEAKER_05 22:46

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Because once the sacrifice is uh is killed on the altar, it doesn't move around. But I'll tell you this, every day at 6, 5 a.m. when I go before the Lord and I present myself as a living sacrifice by 9 a.m., I've already wandered off that altar.

SPEAKER_06 23:01

Wow. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Something's already happened in my life where anxieties come in, reactivity, my kids didn't listen, and I am not living in response to that good news anymore. That's why Paul's like, hey, take your everyday life and make it worship.

SPEAKER_06 23:15

Yes. Wow. I think too. I think the reason why that gets me so excited and wrecks me so much. We've talked about this so much, but the pat this past season of my life, I think every bit of like performative Christianity has just absolutely been confronted and exposed. And I think all three of us, we do really, really cool things for Jesus. And it's so amazing and fun. And it is costly. It is a sacrifice. We've given our lives to this. Like, but for me, I do so many things in ministry, speaking, all this, and it's all amazing and it's costly and it's difficult and it's weighty and it's a calling and all the things. My private life with Jesus is the true sacrifice. Like my private, messy, bloody moments where the Lord is convicting and confronting the hidden sin, the hidden pride, the things that nobody will ever know about or see. The things that I can live with for the rest of my life. But he's like, no, I don't want that for you. I want that part of your heart. Like that is being a living sacrifice. You know what I mean? I just feel like I've been so passionate recently about just like this this like mask that we can all wear with Christianity and be and and these like cliches of like, yes, I'm a living sacrifice. What does that look like? It looks bloody, it looks really costly.

SPEAKER_00 24:39

Well, and it's it is it is like the passage Romans 12, it's taking your everyday life and making your everyday life the the living sacrifice, yeah, the the worship response to God, right? So that means and I said this that living things crawl off the altar. Like use this framework. Living things crawl off the altar. So what today has crawled off the altar to the Lord? So what happens when finances are not in order? Well, your finances crawl off the altar. That's no longer a place of worship for you. Your body and your obsession with beauty or strength or whatever it is becomes the focus, and that's no longer an offering to the Lord. You're trying to fit your life, your body into an idealized image that you worship. That is no longer on the altar of God. That is now something that you idolize. And so just go like you're we talked about time and screen time. Like you want to know what you worship, look at your bank account, take an honest inventory, look at your screen time, take an on this honest inventory, look at the words that you use like regularly with people. What do you share when you have conversations? Who gets your time and energy and attention? Yeah, like are those things directed as an offering to the Lord? This is what Paul's saying. It's not just like, okay, let me also let me just throw this out there. Because I say that, and I also believe everybody needs to be at a local church participating in the worship of God in a in a community of God.

SPEAKER_05 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:08

I believe that. I don't believe worship is you and your headphones and Lindy in my ear going, all right, that is part of it, right? Because the danger is we get rid of the church, though the gathering of the saints.

SPEAKER_02 26:18

I have a church.

SPEAKER_00 26:20

I am, yeah, 100%. I am the church. I I yeah, I get it so much. Like you've deconstructed, you've got your podcast, you got your worship preferences, and you go to fit a group of people that vote like you, talk like you, dress like you, and you call it church. That's not true. And there's a whole discussion of that. I've already riffed on that. But we go and we we we come together as the body, and you're not performing for us as the worship leader, you are conducting the choir that is the local church.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Amen.

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Right? And so we bring our rehearsed lives Monday through Saturday to now bring our best together as an offering to the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 26:56

Can we can I go on? Please go off. I was hoping that we're going to be able to do that. So there's a few things I I want to backtrack on, but on this specifically, we have created a false measuring rod of what is a successful worship set and what is not. Please go off. And like what you're saying, you know, because I'll go somewhere. Lindy, that was amazing. That was such a great set. And I just have to like take a deep breath. Thank you so much. That set was a representation representation of how this congregation has been discipled.

SPEAKER_00 27:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 27:24

And the hunger in the room is where the real culture of worship is set.

SPEAKER_00 27:28

That's so good.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

The revelation of who you're lead, like who's because I I have it that if you're in circa riders and now garden, because we I this is what we're rolling out with Faith and Mellow, is I don't mind the term worship leader. I get it. There's it's not an evil word. Yeah, but the right view is worship shepherd.

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Yeah. Great.

SPEAKER_02 27:47

And so I think you don't have to, oh, you know, so that, oh, don't say worship leader around Lindy. That's that's not what, that is not the point.

SPEAKER_04 27:54

No, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:55

Say worship. I I say yes, I'm a worship leader if someone asks what I do. But in terms of discipling and going, what is the right way to lead people and kind of backtrack a little bit on the where the industry side of Christian music has infiltrated in the church? That's happened.

SPEAKER_00 28:13

Wait, explain that.

SPEAKER_02 28:14

Okay. I don't have a problem with Christian music industry. I don't have a problem with like praise God for Forrest Frank. Let's just say that. Great. My boys ripping it from the event. July 17th.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

I'm there. I'm at the Intuit Dome going with my kids. Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 28:29

Literally, I just texted Corey Asbury, like, bro, the tickets are sold out. I need you to get my boys in. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 28:34

Text Corey like that. What's up?

SPEAKER_02 28:36

He's uh he's on tour with a dream about it.

SPEAKER_00 28:39

So let's go.

SPEAKER_02 28:40

I was like, yeah, so I don't actually have an issue with the Christian music industry. There's a lot of conversations. So I'm going on record. I've never done a podcast where I openly talk about this.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

This is gonna be a clip of the stuff.

SPEAKER_02 28:51

So I've decided this is gonna be the one.

SPEAKER_00 28:53

Yeah, let's go.

SPEAKER_02 28:54

I don't have a problem with the Christian music industry when you're called to that. And when you are in a place where God is using you to entertain and use your music and your gifts to do that, but don't call it worship. Wow. Okay. What do you call it instead? Christian music. Christian music. Yeah. Okay. And it's awesome. And I love it.

SPEAKER_00 29:15

Worship is directed to the Lord. Yes. Worship is songs to the Lord. Yes. And I think we can take Christian themes that are not directed to the Lord. Yes. They're directed to the person singing it. They're directed to themselves. They're using Christian terms and it's under the genre of worship music, but it's not worship.

SPEAKER_02 29:34

Yes. Like I, and if you're listening and not watching the video, like I'm saying this with a smile on my face. Like I actually think there's a lot of conversations right now. And I've just trying, I've been like listening. Yeah. Just going, Lord, what do you think about this? What would you say about this? I agree. And I go, when it comes to just worship and the purity of worship, number one, God defines what's pure in worship, not man. Yeah. So to say like that's pure, that's not pure, I just think we have to fire ourselves from that. We are not the judge of what's pure and not pure. God is. And his spirit will bear witness with what's pure.

SPEAKER_04 30:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Do you know what I mean? It's not a certain style or a certain chord or a minor chord that makes something feel more anointed. So let's unpack this. Like what you're talking about Sunday mornings, we're gathering to worship. There is, there is the side of that that goes, man, if someone is called to lead worship, you are responsible to be a worship shepherd. Yeah. You are praying. You are asking the Lord. Yes. You know, that's something we've done, something we've done in Circle Riders. What are the songs you're highlighting in this season? We do that at the garden now. We just sent out the new here's the songs we're running after for the next three months. Wow. Some are the same, some have changed. That's intentional. There's prayer that goes into that. Lord, where are you leading Costa Mesa? Where are you leading Huntington Beach? Lord, where are you leading Monday nights? That that is what my prayer as a worship shepherd looks like right now. What are you highlighting for Monday nights? What are you highlighting for Garden Coast to Mesa? What are you highlighting for Garden Huntington Beach?

SPEAKER_04 31:03

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 31:03

I will send Mello what I feel for the garden, send myself what I feel for circuit riders. You know what I'm saying? And our team there. Because there, God highlights different things. That's so good. So how are we asking, how am I leading as a worship shepherd? How am I shepherding well? Are you praying into your set list? Are you praying with your team? Yeah. What does that look like? And guys, I will be the first to say anything I've learned is because it's where I have failed.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

Yes. Yeah, it's so sound.

SPEAKER_02 31:29

Okay, it's like not like, oh, I got this.

SPEAKER_00 31:32

Well, so your conviction, your passion is coming from missing it. Yes. At some point you got it wrong and you've corrected. Absolutely. And the Lord has made it like a steel conviction that you want to see now given to the next generation, which I love because you are raising up worship leaders. You're helping Garden raise up worship leaders. You're teaching this, you're writing this. Yes. Not just writing songs, but you're gonna write content and books that the world's gonna see on worship. Amen. But the the I want to just say, because I've been in the local church for 18 years. I've been a part of the church since I was 19. I came back to faith, been in the church. I've watched, I have friends that are, you know, songwriters and musicians and worship leaders. I love your conviction of being in a local church and leading in the local church while you have a much larger calling. And I know you you have churches that you partner with that are deeply connected, like Pastor Michael and Jesus Image and others. But I think there is this other world that's been created. And I don't know what it is, where you can be a worship leader. I'm gonna use that term, where you're circling around these other churches and you get paid to guest lead, but you're not in a local church, you're writing songs, and and I think the bigger issue for you is the song piece, like the the actual songs are not worship songs, they're worship, they're Christian music, and you're trying to bring what I'll call a reformation to the industry. Yeah, I think there needs to be a flipping of the tables in the Christian world in regards to publishing, writing, and publishing and conferences and music. Because I think there is, and I I'm not against it, but there is this world where we are celebrating the benefits of being associated with Jesus and making lucrative careers on these things, and we're and and it's this whole mammon complex that needs to be flipped upside down. Yes, and I was God's not opposed to making money, God's not opposed to writing songs and making lots of money. That's not what I'm saying. Yeah, but there is this industry in there that needs to be challenged and rebuked, yes, and maybe even exercised.

SPEAKER_02 33:26

Backtrack to the table you set of everything from Leviticus and understanding worship and how worship is introduced in all scripture. So when I'm listening, like writers is circuit writer music's version of like they're reaching people who are not in church. Yes. Now, is that their worship because they're laying down their lives and saying yes to God? Yes, our life is worship. So that's the one thing where people go, well, everything's worship. I get it. We've set that table. We understand how our lives are living sacrifices. I'm talking about the songs that exalt Jesus for who he is. Yes. And we come together on a Sunday morning and we lift him up and we declare, you are worthy. You know, you are awesome. Christ in Christ crucified in you, Lord. We've been raised from death. We are thanking the Lord for what he's done. We're remembering, we're exalting him for who he is. And we're also declaring scripture in this place. Let that be what the Bible has intended for it to be. And that's where I just go, like, let's just stop the arguments. Let's all get our Bible out and have read them. Let's celebrate what people are doing in the creative space. Let's celebrate people who are filling arenas and stadiums for God with their creativity. And yes, is that their living sacrifice, their daily yes? Hundred percent. Yes. I know the hours that go in with Josh and Spencer Brent to create this music where people go like, we have people that have showed up to our prayer room that don't know Jesus, that go, I heard a writer song. Where is where am I? And so writer's music, that's Christian music, not worship. It yes, yes. Christian music, they're they're crushing it, but they would just say it's music they're making. It is their revelation of the love of God. You can go listen to it. It's like one of the bridges, it's wouldn't you rather give your life for something, all for his name, make it worth something? It's gonna take all of us or nothing. Hell's gates close, heaven gates open. Yeah, like at first, when you hear that truth.

SPEAKER_00 35:30

Yes, it's spiritual truth, right? It's biblical truth. It's not worshiping in an environment to the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 35:36

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 35:36

But okay, let me just say, I'm gonna break it down. I'm a teacher.

SPEAKER_02 35:39

Let's break it down.

SPEAKER_00 35:40

Here's what I love. If you're you're like, what's up with this distinction? It's it matters so much. This is about biblical theology, it's about a biblical framework, framing your understanding of what worship music is, what worship songs are, yes, as opposed to Christian music. You can have you can have themes of Christianity, you can quote all sorts of biblical passages, but it's not necessarily worship music. What's the distinction, distinction you're making, like as clear as you can?

SPEAKER_02 36:10

I think as clear as I can, it's like one is we are singing directly to God. Two we are yeah, but sometimes it's it may not be an I love you, but we are remembering marvelous, glorious.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Yes, we're remembering what Jesus has done on the cross.

SPEAKER_02 36:24

We are exalting him for his works. We are, yes, we are adoring him. It's the adoration, it's the thanksgiving directed towards him. It's you know, Chase has this amazing teaching of what was in the inner courts and how that reflects our worship now. Wow. And it's that thanksgiving, that incense. I'm gonna butcher it. You should hear him teach it. I wish he was here. Yeah. Yeah. It it is so good because it it simplifies what are the simple things we are bringing to Jesus. We are we're we're thanking him. Yeah, we're loving him, we're pouring our worship out on him. And then I think there's this beautiful thing that comes out of that. Because you know what my favorite thing about Josh Brent is?

SPEAKER_04 37:01

I love Josh Brent.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

You should hear him lead worship. You should hear him on a Monday night when he just gets in there and he leads you to the throne of God.

SPEAKER_00 37:09

Well, what he reveals is his intimacy with the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 37:12

Wow, wow, wow, yes. Yes. And then he has this beautiful assignment to write music that is going outside of the four walls of the church. Am I gonna say that that's less pure? Absolutely not.

SPEAKER_00 37:22

No, it's not.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Of course not. And that's where I see the danger in calling something less pure. I'm like, it's obedience, that's obedience.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Well, that category doesn't exist. Yeah. Because I like I just want to say, like, Horace Frank or, you know, people taking Christian themes. They they might write worship songs and they might write Christian music.

SPEAKER_03 37:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Like his purity of heart is clear. Like he's doing it from a place of obedience, which is to him and the Lord and his his wife and his community. And I know he submits to a pastor, and I know he's walking this out. And I think it's like what I see in my world as past a pastor, people are like, oh, I really love the house church. I really love this, which we do house churches, the small church, because it's pure, there's no performance. And I'm like, that's not a that is a false dichotomy. You created a category. A person who has 20 people in their church could still be performing, yeah, preaching, and leading a church as much as a mega church. Like that, whatever that category is, it doesn't exist. That we can't, we gotta get rid of that.

SPEAKER_06 38:17

Yeah. So this is a huge thing for me because, and I have a question for you guys. I I always think about this like the second somebody becomes a Christian, they become a critic. Like we automatically, like you start to critique churches, you start to critique worship sets, like you just uh you become very critical. You find what you like, and then you're like, everything else is wrong. And I remember when I started kind of church hopping, finding out where I wanted to, you know, where God was calling me, and finding different churches that like really spoke to me. And I loved the worship, and then looking at every other church who doesn't do it like them and say, you're wrong.

SPEAKER_01 38:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 38:53

And this is what so many people do. So I have, I want to ask you guys what you think about like the conversation around hypey worship. Like you go to a church and it's some churches are like an intimate worship setting and it's really and it's quiet, that minor key that you talked about, it's so holy, so beautiful. And then there are some churches that the worship is very hypey. There's lights, there's drums, there's it's like a it's like feels more concert-ish. Is one more pure than the other?

SPEAKER_02 39:23

Can we can I break this down? Yeah. So a lot of people, you know, they'll, hey, come train our worship team. And there is a a way of thinking and building a set list. We start with a praise song, and then I realize, oh, people think praise is a fast song. And I was like, oh, I don't interpret praise as fast. I interpret it as it is in the scripture. So I do this is like What is praise then in scripture? Praise. We are praising God for who he is.

SPEAKER_00 39:47

If I could just put it in the most simple So it's not, it's not a bigger drum, a kick drum. It's not praise the Lord. The fog machine's rolling, and we need praise.

SPEAKER_02 39:56

And let me say this I'm not against fog machines. Hey, the deeper you know God, the depth you know God, the higher the praise.

SPEAKER_04 40:03

Come on.

SPEAKER_02 40:04

Because I always say, like, I'm just getting to know you. So I can praise you. Uh I love your style. I love how intentional you are with people. I love how you always look in someone's eyes when you're talking to them, like you're locked in. You can tell your love for people is amazing. But if Chase were to walk through the door, my depth of praise for him would be a lot deeper. I know your integrity. I know how you parent. I know that in our 10 years of being married, I've never seen you not with your Bible for one day. Like I can praise him differently because of how I know him. So you want to learn to praise the Lord. It's not a tempo, it's not a style, it is how we know Jesus and how we are expressing it.

SPEAKER_00 40:48

I've taught on this before.

SPEAKER_02 40:49

I can see that this is so this is unbelievable. Because I just I will never forget the first time I went, oh, your praise is a tempo. Now, I will say this understanding the seven Hebrew words for praise is important because when I first got saved, I remember being at YWM Kona, worshiping, thinking, I just want to spin around right now. Is that a thing? Like, I just feel like such a revelation and like the love of God. And then I learned, as I learned, what does the Bible say about worship? What's the difference between worship and praise? When we understand praise, it brings so much incredible context to our corporate gatherings. So great. Because you realize, wait, there's a word that literally means to violently spin around.

SPEAKER_01 41:33

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 41:34

Oh my goodness. So what did knowing scripture do to me? It activated my worship. It unlocked my worship. I'm not crazy, I'm not charismatic. I'm feeling a biblical expression of praise. And there's tahila literally means to lift a new song. Like, so spontaneous worship isn't something new in this decade of like, ooh, let's let's do spontaneous song because it's cool and we're discovering something in worship. No, that is a biblical, there is a biblical word for that. So when you biblically understand the words for praise, it actually unlocks your praise in a new way. Oh, clap your hands, all you people. Shout unto God with a voice of praise. I like I said, I wish Chase was here for this one because he will, with every discipleship training school that circuit riders runs, he will go, we're gonna act out. We are going to stand up and physically do these and we're gonna watch how the room shifts. And so you feel it. God made it that way. Okay, let's go there. Someone asked me, Lindy, I have to ask you a question that I feel a lot of shame over, but I need to process it with someone. I'm like, okay, what? They're like, I went to the Taylor Swift concert. Why did I emotionally feel the same thing there that I feel in worship? Wow. And I was like, I want to be a safe place for this person right now and not be like, you what? You felt, you know, I was like, let me break this down for you. Let me break down why. God created sounds and the sounds of one voice to do something to the atmosphere and to our human spirits. And so the world can absolutely grab a hold of the concepts that God created and these beautiful things the Lord created for what? His church. His church. That's why when if you individualize yourself and go, I don't need to be a part of that. Well, all you're doing is keeping yourself from seeing the beautiful reflection of this bride God is purifying and make ready for his return. And there's this place of worship where he is purifying us, he is teaching us again. You can see it, it's all over. He is teaching us how to sing to him again. He is flipping tables. God is. He is flipping the tables over.

SPEAKER_01 43:38

It is like this is so good.

SPEAKER_02 43:40

All over you watch. Like God is not allowing. I'll be totally raw with you. When Chase and I were praying in December, he said, I've had my hand of mercy on some areas of circuit rider music, and I'm gonna lift it this year.

SPEAKER_04 43:52

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 43:53

And I said, Okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:54

Wow.

SPEAKER_02 43:55

And he did. And he has been confronting us. Wow. And he has been refining. Us and it has been the hardest season of my life. But do I have any regrets? Not one. Not one. Because I know the end of the story. Yeah. I know that we are living in between the first and second coming of Jesus, filled with the Spirit. I understand the generation that I'm a part of. And as a worshiper of God, you've got to understand that. And God is going to use music as one of the most powerful evangelistic tools in this age. Wow. He's going to give songs to the people who are bold enough to go, I'm I'm going to be misunderstood from the church, but I'm planted in a church. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Like Josh and Spencer can go do what they're doing because they're covered. Josh is at Garden every Sunday pressing in. And then he gets to go do these wild exploits. And his anchoring allows him to go farther and further and reach more. So I think it is so important to understand, to biblically understand the age we're living in and to know like God is purifying. He is refining. He is pouring out his spirit on all flesh. He is preparing us for his return. And there is going to be a worship so pure, so undefiled, that who could resist? Who could resist worshiping him? Who could resist coming together? I remember like I've had these seasons where you're, you feel like you're so on fire in the secret place. You can't wait to come together to worship with the body. And so even going back to what we first were talking about, I feel God is discipling and pastors. I always say too, like, your value for worship is why your church worships why it does. Yes. It's because when the pastor understands his role as a worshiper, I'm telling you, 100% of the time, like the church goes somewhere different in worship when the lead pastor understands their role as a worshiper. So good. Because then it activates everyone into their calling as a worshiper of Jesus, which is what the byproduct of that is the outlandish praise, a hunger for God, a desire to worship him. And so we have got to, as leaders in the body of Christ, steward this, foster it. Go, we've got to teach our communities. This is not for the worship team. You know, I love churches like I like Jesus' image. People are like, I feel like you lead so differently there. I don't lead any differently there. I follow the spirit, what he's doing there. And what the spirit is doing there, man, Michael is training his people to worship.

SPEAKER_04 46:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 46:29

Whether you can hold a note or not. There is a worship being poured out. And I get to come under and partner with that. I get to come under and partner with what God's doing at the garden. And it is like it is a reflection of what the Lord's doing in his bride at that place. So I could go off, I'll stop.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

Well, this I mean, you're you're saying so many things, and I don't stop. I want to also say you talked about the Taylor Swift thing, and I I was thinking, you know what's interesting is having studied Revelation so much, at the center of the universe is a throne.

SPEAKER_05 47:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 47:03

At the center of the universe, like so the way galaxies, the cosmos, the way Earth, humanity, cells, quarks, atoms, the way they are organized at the center of the organizing reality of all things is a throne with somebody on it. And around him is are these creatures created for worship. And around them are all of creation that's ever existed is going to be organized in worship. According to Revelation chapter 4 and chapter 5. And what they're not doing is talking about themselves. They're saying, holy, holy, holy. Is the Lord God Almighty who was in his coming? You are worthy of our Lord and God to receive glory and honor and power. For you created all things, and by your will, they will they were created and have their being. In other words, it's all coming back to Him. So when we get that experience, that feels like an incredible worship conference experience.

SPEAKER_02 48:03

Emotional.

SPEAKER_00 48:03

Yeah, the Taylor Swift conference. They're tapping into what is at the center of reality. That one day Taylor Swift, and I'm not making a case for this, is simply testifying to what is coming.

SPEAKER_06 48:15

Yes. Wow. That is wild. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

And it's worship.

SPEAKER_06 48:19

Yes. Do you think either on this episode or the next one, we can talk about just like what the throne room of heaven looks like at all times with the angels bowing down and worshiping Jesus and like how our Sundays are supposed to be a reflection of that? Can we just talk about that? What's happening in the throne room?

SPEAKER_00 48:36

I mean, so you're talking about Revelation chapter four. And so Orthodox Church organized the architecture of the church literal buildings around the revelation that John had in Revelation chapter four, which where it says, you know, there's a new part of this of Revelation where he has a door open. Here's a trumpet, and here's come up here, and I will show you what may must take place soon. At once, I was in the spirit, and there before me was a throne in heaven with someone sitting on it. And then he describes that experience, talks about lamps, he talks about the seven spirits of God, talks about the living creatures flying around. One looked like a lion, an ox, uh, face of a man, flying eagle. Each living creature was shouting, holy, holy, holy, and then all the living creatures began to respond. There's 24 elders that throw their crowns down and they say, You are worthy. There is what is the architecture of heaven, is surrounded by the earth. There's so much theology here. I mean, I took a couple weeks to talk through the theology. It's unbelievable. Like the imagery, the allegory, the apocalyptic image that John uses in Revelation to describe the thing behind the things. Like so, so in in many ways, I'll just say Revelation chapter four is a counter narrative to Rome. So this description is challenging what would have been familiar as a cultural form of worship. Yeah. To use that language. Yeah the words glory, honor, power, those worthy, those were first used in imperial hymns.

SPEAKER_05 50:00

Wow. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:02

To direct it towards Caesar. And John takes those words and redirects them to Jesus. So it is a counterformational reality. It is, he he is taking cultural language of ascribing worth and saying the one that's designed to receive those words are not Caesar, but the Lamb who is slain.

SPEAKER_03 50:19

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 50:20

All right. So in some ways, it's it's not just, hey, this is what heaven looks like. I don't think it's a literal description at all. And I don't think we should design our buildings as a literal description because then you cancel, you know, the church plants in India. You cancel Southern California churches meeting in schools or whatever. That's not the point. Exactly. The point is, though, that this is the image God gives to reveal what it looks like behind all the things that we think have power. It's not Apple or Google or Amazon Prime or the US government or the war in Iran. It is a lamb sitting on a throne where the sea has been stilled and conquered. Chaos has been conquered, and all creatures are responding in worship in one voice. Come on. That's where we're headed. Am I okay?

SPEAKER_02 51:02

Wow. What a day, guys. I feel like we've unpacked a lot here.

SPEAKER_00 51:07

We need to have you on after. I think we need to have a lot of things.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

By the way, I hope you're not busy the next few months. You will be busy. You gotta come back.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

This is insane.

SPEAKER_02 51:15

This is we started with sacrifice Genesis 22, where everything's mentioned, the ark that's being set for all of Scripture, to you laying out Leviticus, the offerings, everything to really understand. Like when you understand the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus and what he's done, it there is nothing that comes close to the worth of this and understanding that worship is set, is introduced in this beautiful context of wholehearted obedience, faith, trust in who God is. And right, that's what we want to see discipled in the next generation. Because I'm like, let's stop arguing our arguing over how things sound and let's get back to the heart. Yes. If I could, you know, because I I said it boldly of like, let's not call that worship. But at the same time, I understand that your life laid down before Jesus' worship. So that's gotta be said. That's gotta be said. We're all living our lifestyles of worship to the Lord. But there is this sacred place where the church comes together. There is this sacred place where we bring our hunger and we bring our devotion and we sing songs to God. And it was made to be an experience together where we encounter the Lord and worship him for who he is.

SPEAKER_04 52:28

Love it.

SPEAKER_02 52:29

And that's why it's like people are like, I love the way you lead worship. And I'm like, I couldn't have it any other way. Because there just comes a moment where you become undone when you we all need worship. We all need to come together to sing these songs to realign.

SPEAKER_01 52:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

Sometimes on a Sunday, it's like, I just need to realign and sing with the saints who my savior is. Wow. And remember together and lift up one voice. And there is a power in that one voice together declaring. And I also want to say, because people ask this question a lot, because we have a lot of songs that are declarative in circuit riders. We're shaking off the dust as we arise. Awake, awake, our generation cries. Lindy, is that a worship song? No, I would say that's a prophetic declaration. We're singing a prophetic declaration. And there's a place for that. Still believing for it. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 53:16

We cast the sails.

SPEAKER_02 53:17

You bring the wind. Lord, here we are. Come do it again. I know that's true. We're singing a prayer. Yeah, it's it's gonna be on the new garden album. It's that song when we wrote it was all three of us, me, Faith, and Emily from Church of the City, all brought what was happening in Garden, Circuit Riders, and Church of the City, right?

SPEAKER_04 53:36

That's the senior.

SPEAKER_02 53:38

And that song was a collective cry from each of our houses. That's what formed that song. We cast the sails, you bring the wind. Lord, here we are, come do it again.

SPEAKER_04 53:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:49

Like, let your kingdom come, let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Faith is rising in our time to see the church, like we're believing for it, right? This is a prayer and a declaration. Is there space for that? Yes, because when you look at the songs sung biblically, songs were sung in the old testament. They didn't have recording, they didn't have a cool way to pass this. Like they passed songs on by singing them and teaching them to the next generation to remember what God had done. And so there is a place for declaration and prophesying to what, like, I'll say I'll we can wrap it up after this, but I am not trying to throw a plug-in right now. But Martin Smith and I have a song coming out June 5th called Burning Ones. And he sent it to me. And I was like, yes. Normally I'd be like, I don't have time. You know, like it's just the season I'm in with motherhood and the things I'm staying faithful to. I don't get to do a lot of extra outside right now. And that's okay. That's my season. For this one, I was like, Lord, am I meant to dive into this with Martin? And it's clear as crystal, the Lord showed me the scripture when Jesus leads Moses through the Red Sea and he lifts up the song of Moses. And that song is important because it declares of what God had done in the moment and they would remember it forever. That song is passed down from generations to generations to remember what the Lord set them free from, what they delivered them from. This song is called Burning Ones, but the choruses, these are revival days. Can you feel the heaven shake? The people will praise the one and only God. Come on. Let your holy fire fall on our generation, because these are revival days. They belong to the burning hearts. And I thought.

SPEAKER_00 55:30

Are we singing it on Sunday?

SPEAKER_02 55:31

No, but we should. But I was like, yes, Martin, I want to finish this song with you because I'm gonna cry. There is not anywhere right now. Yeah, you're not hearing a testimony of how God is moving, whether it is a campus in the middle of Kenya or a campus in the middle of that's the world I'm in, campuses.

SPEAKER_00 55:52

Globally that were dead in UK that are full of young people waiting to get in for 12-hour prayer nights.

SPEAKER_02 56:00

Yes, yes. That is everywhere. And I was like, I want to sing a song that declares that to my grandkids, I will say, I lived in the days of revival. Revival is not an emotion, it's not a meeting you can put together. Revival is Jesus. He is the only one who revives, and he is moving in a way that is only done by his spirit. And we call it revival because that's what we know to call it. But this is Jesus alive. This is Christ, and that's the hope of glory. It's I'm dead to sin, alive to Christ. And the revelation of this is covering the globe in a way none of us can explain. We can't point it back to any ministry or any person, but give God the glory. So I said, yes, I want to finish this song with you because this declares the days we're in.

SPEAKER_03 56:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 56:46

It's it I love it because it opens up. Can you hear it? Can you hear it?

SPEAKER_00 56:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 56:51

Like heaven's reign is here. He's here, he's moving.

SPEAKER_00 56:56

And it's just it sounds like did you hear the mountains tremble?

SPEAKER_02 56:59

Honestly, can I I said for our generation? Is this two? Did I get to be a part of 2.0? Come on, I asked him that. I was like, this is the response song to Did you feel the mountains tremble?

SPEAKER_00 57:10

Because what you're describing, and I just want to add, like, we we need worship leaders and songwriters to write for what God is doing in local context, yes, in regional context for the moment. Like, this isn't coming out of nowhere. This isn't like a you know, a dream about one day maybe God will move. This is like Pastor Ramin came back from the UK, and churches from Australia, from the US, and the UK were all together talking about what God's doing. And we're talking about places that for 20-something years, since I've been a pastor, have been so dead to Christianity. So, like the trajectory is going off. And it's been bonkers what God's doing. The stats of what's happening with Gen Z, the stats of what's happening in these places. I actually just read this morning an article that came out with relevant, and it says only two types of churches are actually growing, right? And they share one big thing in common. The peer research reports, non-denominational and pentecostal churches are the only two segments of the American church that have grown consistently since the pandemic, and they share a common DNA of experiential, spirit-filled worship, which says a lot about the future of America, American Christianity, right?

SPEAKER_06 58:23

I literally read that this morning.

SPEAKER_00 58:25

I took a picture and it's the whole article. I'm like the two churches are Pentecostal, non-denominational Pentecost churches that share one. So what's growing globally is a spirit-filled experiential worship environment. What are Gen Z looking for? They go to Taylor Swift, they're looking for the feeling that points to the one who sits on the throne. Wow. Churches that are saying it's time to get quiet. I'm afraid right now you're gonna miss the next move of God. Look, I know God moves in the quiet. I know he's sitting in the desert and you and you should not be hurried and busy, and you should find rhythms and escape from the chaos of the day to connect with God. But this is a moment where the harvest is now. It's not coming, it's right here. You need to have eyes to see. You need to wake up. The songs are not about your personal experience, it's about who Jesus is and how he's moving. And yes, when you were talking the last two episodes, I literally had in my mind, she's on fire. She's burning for God. And you wrote a song with Martin Smith, by the way, awesome, about the burning ones. And this is what we need. We need to give language to what Gen Z. Gen Z is not the most church generation. They're attending the church the most right now. They're not, they're not, we need to reach Gen Z. We're not reaching them. They're not, there are not more Gen Z in church. They just attend more church than any other generation. What does that mean? They're on fire for God. Wow. They're wanting a present. They're showing up to a Thursday night at Mariner's. They're going to uh Friday night with Jesus Image in you know in Orange County. They come to Sunday at Garden, they're going to Monday at Circuit Riders. They're wanting, they're replacing the activities because they're on fire. They're searching for the real thing. And we need songs to capture that.

SPEAKER_03 59:58

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 59:58

We need people and movements and leaders and humble leaders to go after the pure thing and bring it to them.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:04

Amen. Let's go. And I just love talking to you, Lindy. It just like you are so gifted and you're so anointed and you're such a leader. And you love Jesus so much more than you love anything that you do. Obviously, you you just you keep the main thing, the main thing. And it's so, I'm like, my heart is like flipping out. I'm so excited, even just having this conversation with you. Thank you, Jesus. Yeah, let's do more.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:32

I'm like, there's so much we could unpack on like this episode, we could actually do individual, yeah, probably four more episodes from this one. I know. Jesus the ultimate sacrifice. That needs to be a title and breaking down the old testament so then you understand what he fulfilled and what the new life in Christ is.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:51

Like and I think you're also such a testament to, I mean, you mentioned this like a worship leader knowing scripture and it just coming out of you. And I feel like in a time where people do rely on feelings and like emotionalism so much, like you give people like an experience in worship, but it's rooted in truth and scripture. Like you don't just go based off of emotion, like everything you have so much passion and so much emotion that's rooted in scripture. It's just such a beautiful thing to witness.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:20

Three scriptures I'd love to leave specifically if worship leaders are listening. Yes, and worship teams. Number one, I know her, we're not close, but I have told her this. I am so inspired by Brooke Lidgert Wood's passion for knowing scripture. Yeah. And she's so public with that and showing that. And I think that's why a lot of her songs are translating for the church right now in such an impactful way. Like I could leave King of Kings every set and never get sick of it because the truth is just it's living and it's active. So that's what if I could leave worship leaders and worship teams with three scriptures to say, go dive into these, implement this into what you're doing, is very simple. Number one, the word of God is living and active, like a double-edged sword dividing soul and spirit. What you're talking about, there is a living aspect to what happens when we sing scripture and sing revelation from scripture. Because if you just write a song, because you gathered to write a song and it's like, oh, that's a good thing, and there's no revelation or where is this coming from? The song's gonna carry that. But when a song is written from revelation and understanding of scripture, guess what it's gonna carry? Living, active, yes, sword, dividing soul and spirit. That's how we want to be leading our churches. And if Jesus, when he is led into the wilderness, this wrecked me over COVID. I dove into this because I was like, if I can get this, it will change my life. Wow. And I felt like I was getting it like 3%, where he is led into the wilderness, tempted by the enemy. And if Jesus himself is quoting scripture to defeat the enemy, far be it from me to think I can defeat the enemy any other way. He says, it is written, man shall not live by bread alone, but every word that comes out of the mouth of God, every word that comes out of the mouth of God. Okay, so if man should not live by bread alone, but every word that comes out of the mouth of God, then I'm gonna take my responsibility as a worship shepherd and say, Lord, teach me your words. Teach me your words, ask God. Jeremy Riddle challenged us, circuit writers on that like eight years ago. Ask God, ask God for the songs that you're believing for, that you want to see people singing. Ask him for those. And we did. We started praying. And then, so it's that one, and then 2 Corinthians 10, 3 through 5. For though we wage war, we do not wage war according to the flesh, but we've been given divine weapons to destroy arguments and lofty opinions that come against the knowledge of God. This changed me. Yeah, this changed me because here's where this scripture, the rubber met the road for me. Is I traveled with Heidi Baker for two years. Some people may not know who Heidi Baker is. She's an incredible missionary woman that has given her life for the Mozambican people. She lives in Mozambique, she does some speaking in America, charismatic, spirit-filled, as wild as they come. But where she lives and what she does, if you are not spirit-filled, you're out of there. I'm just being honest. It is like, I have been there, and I will never forget. She's like, we're taking a boat to an underreached people group. It's gonna be amazing. I'm like, okay, get on the boat. We get on the boat. You know where she tells stories about boat crashes, and you're like, is that real?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:47

I remember being like, I'm living in one of her stories right now, and I don't want to be living in one of her stories right now. The swells and the waves, and then one of the motors broke. Like, I was like, this boat is crashing by a miracle of God. We get there. We get there. And I'm like, okay. She shows the Jesus film. People have never heard of Jesus. So then what she does is she preaches the gospel. Come forward if you're deaf, come forward if you're blind. I literally watched deaf ears open. I mean, talk about as a young 20-year-old, your whole theology getting blown up. Yeah. And it did. So, but then all these people get saved. She turns to me, she's like, now Lindy's gonna lead us in worship. And I'm like, are you joking? What are we gonna do? How great is our God, and everyone's gonna know it? They've never, they've just met Jesus. They don't know about Christian, they don't know about CCLI top 10. I can't pull out, I can't pull out what everyone knows right now, and we'll be able to sing in one voice and it'll be beautiful. And you know, there are there are things you can do in our culture to go, oh, this'll work. Yeah. So when you're somewhere where none of that's gonna work, what do you have? Wow.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:53

Declaring the truth in scripture. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:55

Wow, that's a song. And the Lord whispered in my ear, you know me.

SPEAKER_01 1:06:00

Go.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:00

And I was like, wow, wow. So I leaned over to one of the girls who could speak both languages because people are throwing like the witchcraft, all the things down at the altar. And so I'm like, what can we sing right now that would help them understand how they're exalting Jesus? Okay, there's only one true God. They're leaving all their gods right now. So I ask, what's what's the phrase, there's only one true God, his name is Jesus in their language. She tells me we sing it 45 minutes. We just sing that line in their language over and over. There's only one true God, his name is Jesus. That's okay. That was so formative for me as a worship leader because it got rid of all the fluff. It got rid of, yes, we need skill sets. Yes, I as I want to be growing in things, but nothing can replace that. Wow. And I went, I know Jesus. So if I exalt him, I believe these arguments and lofty opinions that come against the knowledge of God will fall. And we are gonna exalt Jesus as the one true God in this place.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:56

Let's go.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:57

That rocked my worship theology because I went, wow, it's that, it was that still small voice, you know me. Yeah, now I would like for you to lead worship. And Heidi wasn't, she didn't care. She's like, Oh, Lydia's gonna lead us to worship, you know. She's like, Woo, you know, but it that so that changed my life.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:15

I love it. Praise Jesus. Well, we're done on time.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:21

Well, thank you. I don't know what to say. What do you say after that?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:26

So much good here. I think in general, there is more to have. We need to have more conversations around worship. Yeah, but I love where this went. Thanks for joining us. Glad you're here.

SPEAKER_06 1:07:36

Guys, thank you, thank you, thank you. We hope that you feel so inspired and full, full, full of love and life and Jesus right now. We love you guys so much. God bless you.