What A Healthy Soul ACTUALLY Looks Like From the Bible

Love is not a feeling first. Joy is not happiness. Patience is not passive waiting. And kindness is not just being nice. This episode walks through the fruit of the Spirit as the actual markers of a healthy soul — redefining each one from the ground up with Pastor Bill Dogterom, in a conversation that will quietly wreck you in the best way.

In this episode:
• Love as the environment the soul was made to swim in
• Joy as the energy cell — what enables endurance through the hardest seasons
• Shalom as pervasive wellbeing independent of circumstances
• Kindness as mercy and goodness as grace — the two most powerful forces for transformation in the universe
• Why the fruit of the Spirit are warfare characteristics not Hallmark card virtues
• The hardest part of the Christian life is not suffering — it is receiving good things without running off like a kid with a popsicle

SPONSORS
This series is brought to you with the support of the New International Version (NIV) — the Bible translation we use when reading, studying, and preaching. With more than 650 million copies distributed worldwide, the NIV is the most widely read Bible translation in contemporary English, delivering the very best combination of accuracy, readability, and clarity. It is true to God's Word and true to the reader.

📖 Find an NIV Bible that's right for you at https://www.thenivbible.com/niv-bibles/

We are also supported by Logos Bible Software — the tool all three of us use when studying Scripture. Logos isn't just a Bible app, it is your whole study desk, your library, and your study partner in one place. Start your free trial and check out the Bible Study Pdcst bundles at https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst

📖 Visit https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst to start your free trial today

Hosted by:
• Pastor Darren Rouanzoin — https://www.instagram.com/darrenr
• Angela Halili — https://www.instagram.com/angelahalili
• Pastor Bill Dogterom — https://www.instagram.com/bdogterom

#BibleStudy #SoulCare #ChristianPodcast #Faith #Jesus #BibleStudyPodcast #FruitOfTheSpirit

Transcript

SPEAKER_04 0:02

Hello? Oh, you said we're good?

unknown 0:04

Yep.

SPEAKER_04 0:05

Oh, sorry. Okay. The music. Hey guys. Hey guys. I'm Ange.

SPEAKER_00 0:09

Hey, I'm Darren. I'm Bill.

SPEAKER_04 0:11

And this is the Bible study podcast. This series, we have our good friend and pastor, Pastor Bill, on to talk about soul care. This series means so much to me because specifically because my soul needs a little bit of care and a little bit of tending too. And I think we're a generation uh that moves really quickly. And it's we're so blessed to have you on to remind us to slow down, look inward, and let Jesus touch the parts of our soul that we haven't let him yet. So today we're gonna talk about the health and the unhealth of the soul.

SPEAKER_01 0:46

That's right.

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Right?

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah, we're gonna we're gonna dive in. If you missed the last week, you should go to last week's and kind of give an update on the the the teaching that you are a soul, you don't have a soul. Yeah. Talked about the five dimensions of the soul, all coming from Genesis chapter two and the framework of how God created human humanity in his image. But before we jump in, because I actually, as I was just sitting right before we talked, I just had this sense that this is gonna be uh it's gonna unlock a lot of people. So I want to pray real quick and then you could dive in. So Jesus, I thank you for this space that we get access to uh thousands of people who tune in to listen to this conversation. And I pray wherever people are right now, on their commute, at the gym, at home, wherever they're listening, Jesus, would you make yourself known? May you be near, may your Holy Spirit fill, equip, empower, tend to the souls of our listeners. I pray that your gentleness would lead people uh towards correction, that your kindness would lead them towards repentance. I think about some of the conversations which will have an edge to it on the ways that we have allowed ourselves to be unhealthy, uh, the ways we've neglected parts of our soul, like our body or emotions. I pray, Jesus, that you would you would lead us and lead everyone here that's listening uh to life and abundance of it. So we bless you and we honor you, and we bless everyone listening. Be with them in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 2:19

In Jesus' name.

SPEAKER_01 2:20

I have a feeling that as we jump in to looking at the five differ dimensions: the physical, the spiritual, the emotional, the intellectual, and the social components of our soul, that as you talk about health and unhealth, it's gonna kind of unlock some things. So I know it did for me because I like to keep sin, you know, in like a really religious context.

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:43

Right. The big ones, obviously, and then there's some small ones. But when we start talking about the neglect of your physical health in a pattern that's distorted from what you were intended, that's missing the mark, sin. That gets I get triggered by that. I get it, I get defensive. And so that's what you know. When we were talking as a as I was a young pastor, I would get offended by you all the time. It's my gift. I get it all the time. Because I I think we uh we like to keep things, I like to, I'll speak for myself. I like to keep things in a category that's safe and controlled. But when you start doing what I know you're about to do, it it opens this door that creates a lot of vulnerability. That what it exposes is the shame that we're living in. And I I want shame to go away and I want people to feel the presence of Jesus. Yeah. And he's gonna gently nudge us with conviction, which is a 10 tends to be guilt, but move us towards wholeness, move us towards what your soul was intended to be in the first place. Like the the mission in John 10, 10, Jesus says that the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but I have come that they may have life and have it to the full. So Jesus' intention is for Zoa. It's it's abundant, overflowing life. Now, I just ask people all the time, you know, how your walk with God, does it feel like an abundance of life? Or in, you know, John 7, is it a stream of living water flowing through you? Most of us know we're struggling, but some of the ways we struggle, we don't realize are associated to this understanding. So I just open it up with that.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Yeah. Well, kind of because of the nature of the soul being this holistic piece, right? Uh, we're gonna talk, and whether we do it this time or next time, about the discrete parts. What does it look like when my when my body is in health, when my mind is in health? Uh, I thought it would be helpful to kind of back away a little bit and see how the marker of the healthy soul is, and then the markers of unhealth, yeah, uh, in in the broad sense. So the easiest way to look at this is to remember that we are a word of love spoken, that we are a word that love spoke, that when God said, Let there be, and we were the outcome of that, if you will, it is uh we're we're uh uh a word that echoes out into the universe and uh is is even in Genesis 1 with that word speaking, that breath of God that brings that word into into into being. Um Paul tells us, you quoting in in Acts chapter 17, that we live and move and have our existence in God. Yeah. So it won't be surprising to say that love is the environment, it's one of our core emotional components and the kind of the foundation, the fountainhead from which the whole of the rest of the system drinks, if you will. So, what does that mean? And obviously, God is love as the source of our being. So we the more, this is why over and over and over again Jesus will use this language, and his friends John and Peter and uh Paul and the rest will always keep just kind of driving us back to loving one another, loving God, loving ourselves. You know, this piece that gets missed in the bridge between loving God and loving neighbor is loving self, yeah. Not as idol worship, but as a stewardship really of the gift that God has given you in your, in your body, in your mind, in your heart and emotions, etc., because you will otherwise love your neighbor as you love yourself, which will damage your neighbor because you don't love yourself very well. Right. So that through line brings us into this sense of love as the foundation of the health of the soul, it's the environment, it's the context in which we are supposed to exist. And as it relates to others then, and as it relates to ourselves, love is first a disposition, not a feeling. So it's an orientation towards the goodness of the other, towards uh wishing them well, wishing myself well. And and often feelings will come along in support of that. Romance as part of that can, you know, in terms of certain kinds of relationships. But if I'm waiting to feel love before I love, I'll be waiting a long time.

SPEAKER_02 7:29

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

So love as a feeling follows love as a disposition that then gets decided and acted on. So I can act in love without feeling love for someone.

SPEAKER_01 7:44

You're gonna fix a lot of marriages right now. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:47

Well, this is this is where it shows up, right? Exactly. Because, you know, we fall in love with somebody, and on the strength of that electricity, we make lifetime commitments and then discover, oh no, that fire needs to be tended. That has to be stewarded, that has to be nurtured. And the way that that is nurtured is by acting on it without the feeling. Yes, right. And sometimes it's supported by feelings, uh, other times uh not so much. Feelings need to be properly trained, if otherwise they're gonna end us up in the ditch, right? If my attraction, say, has not been properly trained, I'm gonna be attracted to people in situations that are not good for me, that are harmful to me. So uh last time you alluded to the how trauma impacts the health of the soul. Well, that's one of the ways. Right. Trauma will often train us in attraction to the wrong kinds of people. And then we will love them and allow them to quote unquote love us, but it will be damaging to us at some pretty profound levels. So they have to be trained properly. Ideally, the health of the soul is anchored in the love of God for us. Uh, and it's probably the hardest for many people, the hardest thing to do is to let God love you for no good reason. We want to earn it, we want to pay him back, we want to deserve because we're afraid that his love for us will be similar to our love for others or others' love for us. That is to say, it's conditional, it's transactional, whereas God's love for us is simply the water that we swim in. It's the reality that grounds us. And when we can't or won't or don't let God love us as God loves us, we we are living in unreality.

SPEAKER_01 9:43

And this is probably the biggest thing. I just want to pause for a moment because this is something we can uh acknowledge intellectually, but it has to be acknowledged within our soul and embraced as an experience. Like God's love is without condition, without performance. It doesn't depend on what you do, how much you read your Bible, what do the religious activities, you are his beloved. This is a foundation for all identity in general. And when I talk about my burnout as a pastor, we've talked about this. It came down to this. It came down to even though I was leading a church, believing yes, we're all his beloved, I was living in my body a different narrative that I had to prove to God, yeah, to everyone else that I was worth his love, which came with performance, it came with you know meeting everyone's expectations, people pleasing, running faster as the church grew, faster, faster, faster. And the the that wasn't embracing the love of God the way he is giving it. It was a distorted view of God that shaped how I lived.

SPEAKER_00 10:49

Yeah. And I mean, even in in spiritual direction, one of the key questions is kind of when you see God looking at you, what is the expression on his face? You know, is it a father's love for a beloved's child? Yeah, uh, or is it angry or disappointed? I had one guy say, He's not looking at me, he's turned away.

SPEAKER_05 11:11

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

And it's like, well, you gotta you got the wrong God then.

SPEAKER_01 11:14

Got the wrong God.

SPEAKER_00 11:15

Because that's that's not what scripture says. Yeah, his gaze is on his beloved, yeah, you know, and that then forms the whole the whole identity piece.

SPEAKER_01 11:27

Last week I was with uh a group of senior pastors from Orange County, and we were doing a Holy Spirit day away, and one of one of the guys led a little talk on the role of the Holy Spirit, or who is the Holy Spirit, and I think he was quoting John Stott, so I don't know exactly. He was quoting somebody and they describe the love of God. And he says, Imagine a father, a loving father, standing next to a son holding his hand, knowing that the father is loving the boy. Great picture, right? Now imagine the father picks up the boy and holds him. Is the father's love greater? No, but does the boy experience a greater amount of his love and that a greater does he feel more? Yes. And what's crazy about that story is that morning I went on a walk with Amos and we're walking through Gum Grove, the park by our house, and he's walking in front of me for part of the walk, and then he walks and holds my hand. And at the end, I was walking near our house, and I'm like, buddy, I love you so much. And I just pecked him up and carried him the rest of the way. I literally had this experience. So he tells a story, and the Holy Spirit's like like this idea of like, I have unbelievable love for my kids. Like, I have so much love for my children. And I was I was hearing the story and I was like, wow, that is so powerful. I just experienced this, but I experienced it as a father. And as we're worshiping, God says, No, you're the little boy in my arms. And I'm like, okay. Yeah, that just happened last Wednesday, and that's that's what we're getting at. We have to live in that space, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:55

And and to know that that is true when we don't feel it. Exactly. When we don't feel the embrace, when we don't feel our hands in his uh exactly, and because there are uh a lot of folks who are are being trained to walk by faith without that feeling, yes, and it's essential for maturing, it's essential for growing up. Do I know that I'm loved by God because he's God and He has spoken that? Yes, or do I need the reinforcement? Yes, and and which indicates probably I'm not walking by faith.

SPEAKER_02 13:33

Well, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

This is good because you know, do you know you're loved when the diagnosis is not your preferred outcome, right? When exactly the job didn't you didn't get the job you interviewed for? When you know you're under a financial crisis, do you still understand that your core identity is the beloved without condition? Or is it built on performance or the other side, like the vending machine, everything going your way? That is really important to start. Like that's the foundation. So what you're saying is this this water we're swimming in, this foundation that we stand and build a healthy soul out of is love.

SPEAKER_00 14:11

Yes, that's it from the inside out.

SPEAKER_04 14:15

Oh, I'm just enjoying myself.

SPEAKER_01 14:17

It is all new content in some way. No, oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_04 14:20

But this is my like this is my bread and butter. Like, I love talking about the soul and emotions and the heart, and it's just this is so good and so important.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yeah. And and then love, because it is generative, right? It is love is is creative. Love loves to love, yeah, right. He that's where creation comes from. That's where God says, let's make a platypus, let's see what that looks like. He's so cool for that. That you know, the psalm says he he created some creatures just to play. I love that.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

I love that image, yes, right? And I see those creatures, but why mosquitoes?

SPEAKER_04 14:58

No, that is such a good question. Why mosquitoes? Why cockroaches? Why ants?

SPEAKER_01 15:03

I read a book on mosquitoes, that's a whole other story.

SPEAKER_00 15:05

That's a whole other thing, you know. One of the list of questions we'll get clarity on or not down the road.

SPEAKER_04 15:11

We okay, no, we're not quite going to start talking about how.

SPEAKER_01 15:14

And why Australia? Like, I know you're listening to Australia, but you have all the dangerous animals like all in one continent.

SPEAKER_04 15:19

It's the But it's also like so beautiful, so it's kind of like the price you pay, right? Yeah, I guess.

SPEAKER_01 15:23

The price you pay, exactly. Like they have snails that can kill you. True story.

SPEAKER_00 15:27

I mean, you on the other side of that, you think, what does what does a redeemed croc cockroach look like?

SPEAKER_04 15:34

Okay, sir. Let's clip.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

I mean, if if you think about I mean, this is another podcast, right? But you think through we we love the beauty, the the rose, the lily, of the you know, the birds, that yeah, all of those things. Every one of them we see uh is the result of a fallen world. This is what foot looks like.

unknown 15:53

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 15:55

You think a c sorry to tell you to start it?

SPEAKER_01 15:58

I don't know. Is there such a thing, or is it the result of the most fall? Because I'm not smart enough to know that. Genesis three. Yeah, but that that's gonna offend a lot of people.

SPEAKER_04 16:07

I agree.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

Like dogs, clearly, cats, not sure. I'm not sure either, I think.

SPEAKER_02 16:12

Yeah, that's such a good point.

SPEAKER_00 16:15

But anyway, that's really way off topic. So love as the environment, love is the the the kind of the core, yeah, it's the fountain head from which the rest of the health of the system, yes, it's God's willing of good for us. This is why Paul will say God is always at work for good. What what did you expect? He is love, yes. He is that he is at work to draw all things, and you can resist it, and and there's a price to pay for that. It's it we use curse language to describe what happens when you say no to being loved. Uh, it's not that he does something to reinforce his anger that you won't let it's no, this is what happens when you won't let him love you. Explain this.

SPEAKER_01 16:59

This is so good. Blessing and curse. Explain that for me.

SPEAKER_00 17:02

Yeah, blessing is simply being in alignment with the nature, character, covenant, love of God. Yeah. And curse is what happens when you're in misalignment. The illustration for me, as you know, is is the whitewater rafting, where where if you are in the, you know, you put your kayak in and you're in the flow of the river, you receive the flow of the river as blessing, right? But if you get sideways to the flow of the river, or if you for some reason want to go back up against the flow of the river, the river has not changed its orientation to you, but you have changed your orientation to it. And now you receive that same flow as oppositional, as curse. And that's what ends up happening uh when we will talk about this with unhealth, but unhealth is simply not letting love be the guard and guide. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 17:54

Wow, because so that's really interesting because that would be the old testament understanding of like in Proverbs of a life of wisdom is in the flow of blessing, well lived, and then the the cursed folly life is living in opposition to what is created order, like God's intent, like the design, correct? Right, exactly. So good. So get into this. Let's go, break it down.

SPEAKER_02 18:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 18:21

Well, so the next thing that flows out of love is the energy source to enable it, which is joy. Yeah. We've talked about these are the two primary indicators of the health of the soul. The reason we want to do an examine of the heart, invite the Holy Spirit. And one of the two questions is how am I doing it? Being love for no good reason, and what is the joy level in my soul? Joy is not happiness.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

No.

SPEAKER_00 18:46

Joy isn't, it can be, it can blow the roof off in celebration. Yeah. But where joy really comes into its own, so to speak, is in the in the in the plodding, in the getting through the difficult challenges. It was joy that enabled Jesus to endure the cross. Yeah. So joy is some pretty high octane fuel. That's what enables capacity for life as it actually is. And it enables us to kind of just motor along through the mundane and the boredom. And we've got to get really good at being bored at not, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

Okay. Can I I can I ask you about joy in in it in uh relation to the health of your soul? Some people are naturally more joyful, or some people naturally have like a more an inclination towards joy. Is that true?

SPEAKER_00 19:38

I would probably say uh yes, except that it usually reads as happiness. Right. So there is a positive piece to it. I think there is joy. I think some people are more wired in that way, and some not. And a lot of again, the early experiences that we had as kids, the attachment stuff that Jim Wilder talks we've been w working on, I think that contributes to that.

SPEAKER_04 20:07

Yeah, I and I ask that because I have I am coming out of a difficult season, one of the hardest of my life. And even though they were some of the hardest days and the darkest days of my life, I had not 24 hours a day, but a lot of the time I still experienced like incredible joy. And even my friends would look at me and be like, This is insane. How are you able to experience such intense joy through the worst season of your life? And I'm like, Well, Jesus, it's a gift that I've been given. But I would describe my soul at that time as being very unhealthy, but I still was experiencing so much joy.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

Yeah, it might be that your soul wasn't all that unhealthy then.

SPEAKER_04 20:48

Heck yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

Or you could be, and I don't know, but you could be trauma cause you to look at the bright side, and what you're calling joy is actually an unhealthy optimism. There's also that. I'm not saying that to you, but there is that, right? Like there is like this, like hey, sex out, disregard.

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

Because it's a you don't want to step into pain. And that was the piece I was hearing, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:15

It was the worst season of my life. Well, you're aware of it. You're aware of joy. You're you're motoring through it, you're in it, you're letting it be true. You're not denying the pain.

SPEAKER_04 21:25

No.

SPEAKER_00 21:25

But it's the capacity for the season of pain that is joy.

SPEAKER_04 21:29

And I and I would say joy was the driving factor of me getting through.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

Yeah. I thought, you know, it's interesting. While we're talking about this, I have this strong sense to pray for people for this. So I'm gonna pray real quick. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I don't know how else to do this, but I feel like there are people listening that have been robbed of joy and they're living under a cloud and they feel nothing but melancholy and gray. And I just want to pray, Jesus, would you come into those bedrooms, into the car, into the space? And begin to deposit just memories of your provision, memories of your power, your work and your nearness, and begin to deposit joy that will fill and reframe life with your presence. They know your love, but they're living without joy, feeling circumstances have been passed, the season will never come back. But I know you are a God of second and third and fourth chances, and we love you, Jesus. So I just pray, break through it now in Jesus' name. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 22:33

Amen. Yes. Thank you, Lord.

SPEAKER_00 22:36

There's another piece to this. Can I pray? Pray. Yeah, you go. Lord, I pray too for those for whom some recent event has they've read it as disqualification. They've read it as the game's over. And I pray that they would really come to realize that joy is about resurrection. Joy is about coming back from the dead and uh entering into uh the new life that uh joy enables. And I pray for courage uh to to let dead be dead and to hear the call uh to life again. Yeah, uh amen. Amen.

SPEAKER_04 23:12

Amen. Thank you, Jesus. Oh, I love it here.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

Ministry time, baby. Let's yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 23:18

Well, and I mean at a core level, right? That's what Paul says regularly, rejoice. Yeah, rejoice means go back, fill up the tank with joy again. And for him, I think that is that resurrection narrative. You go back through the whole week, not just Sunday morning. You go back through the betrayal, you go back through the kiss of betrayal, you go back through the I'm never gonna leave you and I don't even know him. Yeah, because there are seasons of life that that that joy feels like it's just drifting when people betray you, when they won't understand you, when they can't understand you. And Jesus invites us to, okay, hang in there. It's not over. Don't, don't, don't sell the farm just yet. That invitation to stay, to be present, and to look around and notice he's right there with you. He knows exactly what that feels like. He's been there, and that is also what joy enabled him to endure. Not just the fatal cross on Friday, yeah, but that dark Saturday when nobody knows what is going on. Yeah, and it just feels like abandonment. Yeah, joy is needed as much for that place as it is for the roof off the top on Sunday morning, right? So, anyway, that's what I think rejoicing means. I love it. Then uh the outcome of that is uh shalom. Yeah, yeah, wholeness, this sense of pervasive well-being independent of the circumstances. Yeah, uh, Paul's language of contentment. Yeah, uh, I if I have, I'm fine. If I don't have, I'm fine. Palace, good, prison, fine, yeah, whatever, we're in good shape. Yeah. But he says, I've learned contentment. Yeah. And that word there has a verbal tense that says, in a moment, he got it. And I think for Paul, that may have been when he woke up on the top side of the grass after being knocked off his horse in that encounter on the road to Damascus, right? Where he just realized, oh, my life is not and never has been my own. I'm in somebody else's care. That's gonna be good enough for me. My grace, you'll we'll hear later, is actually sufficient for you. So that that uh idea of of shalom enables us, first of all, to realize oh, the core conflict of our life has been resolved. Yeah, God is for us, not against us. My sin no longer separates God from me. Yeah. And I get to choose whether it separates me from God. So can I repent? Can I receive the forgiveness that is available? Can I enter into that wholeness, that shalom? And then, and then wholeness is not just the the negation of conflict. It is the the the presence of settleness, the presence of that, of that wholeness. So even when I have a difference with somebody else, I can still be completely okay. I can be content. So I don't need to be defensive, I don't need to be resistant, I can not have to have the last word. I can let people misunderstand me and be completely okay with that. Yeah. Um, I don't need to explain myself because there are some folks that will never understand me. And and there are some things about every person that nobody will understand.

SPEAKER_02 27:07

Wow, that's so helpful.

SPEAKER_00 27:09

And it's really important that we be okay with not being understood by anybody but God. Yeah. So good. Right? And then, of course, that wholeness works its way out in our relationships with other people uh and with God and leads us to levels of health and strength uh along the way. Then the way that that starts to work itself out in our relationships is patience. You're hearing the fruit of the spirit here. I was gonna say, I think I see a theme. Yeah, yeah. Uh because those peace. Yeah, yeah. Very so patience. But that's that's the mark of the healthy soul. When because what we're seeing here is a thumbnail sketch of the character and nature of Jesus. Yes, right?

SPEAKER_01 27:52

That comes out of the healthy soul.

SPEAKER_00 27:53

This is what a healthy soul looks like. If you want to know what it means to be human, look at him. Because he got being human exactly right. Wow. And that's then when we say becoming like Christ, when we say learning to think with the mind of Christ, that's the outcome.

SPEAKER_01 28:12

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:12

You get to actually be fully human. Yes. Uh, you'll never be God. Yeah. But you will be a human being as Jesus would be if you were He were you.

SPEAKER_01 28:22

And the more you become like Jesus, the more you become the truer version of yourself in a world that's desperately trying to differentiate and you know, find their true selves, you know, by looking in their heart and discovering something and then making that the thing that they now have to live, actually patterning your life after Jesus. And over a long period of time, these characteristics can, should come in the power of the Holy Spirit through life. Right. Which I just want to add on these, because people look at the fruit of the spirit as, oh, yeah, I'm sp the more I spend time with the Holy Spirit, like like he's this other thing outside of ordinary life.

SPEAKER_02 29:05

Right.

SPEAKER_01 29:06

I get these these characteristics, the fruit. But what I've seen, and this is what you're getting at, is actually the fruit is grown in real life. Yes, as you go. Yeah. Because you're gonna talk about patience. You don't learn patience alone in your room. You do not. That's not where you learn patience. Right. You do not. Like when I prayed for patience, God gave me a second child. And he's taught me a lot about patience. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:32

Or it's a roommate, or it's a coworker, or it's a boss, or it's you know, a dandelion in the lawn of your life.

SPEAKER_01 29:40

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 29:40

It's somebody there.

SPEAKER_01 29:41

Uh yeah, a groundhog, you know.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah, there you go. I have in right. Well, and patience, notice too, is really rooted in trust.

SPEAKER_02 29:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:51

Can can we trust that God is still in charge of the universe when that guy cut me off, or when the salesperson dissed me, or when I've not been all that I hoped I would be. Because we need as much patience with ourselves in process as we need in other people. And of course, with God, because God never tells time the way I do. He's always late in my calculation every time. And the realization is trust is fundamental to this, that he is working things out, yeah, and he'll get around to it if it matters in the nature of the universe. I I learn to receive instead of grabbing at things.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 30:41

Uh to I don't need to make things, I can live without demand. I can learn to to to redeem time because I've got some capacity to to notice, and I can I can let things, and this is the hard one for me, let people just be.

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 31:00

This is so dumb, Bill. It's these conversations that really mess me up.

SPEAKER_03 31:09

This is so dumb.

SPEAKER_01 31:10

What do you mean I can just let people be? There's I could run their lives better. That's what I realized. Yeah, right. Like if they would just let me so true be responsible for their decisions and habits, and they would be better. Yes. So I just need to give them judgment and critique. Yes.

SPEAKER_00 31:28

And which reflects the disordered nature of your inner inner life, of your inner life. Because what do we do, right? We want everybody outside, we want to manage the edges because we're in chaos inside.

SPEAKER_04 31:41

Wow, Bill. Sorry, Pastor Bill, that's wild.

SPEAKER_01 31:46

So people we date, this can happen. Oh, people we're married to or kids. This is what happens. Coworkers, neighbors, right? So you're saying there's something about patience, that attribute characteristic that's connected to an ordered soul, a reordered soul, right? Around the presence in person of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that enables you to free people to be who they are. Wow. Even when they're dramatically disappointing or inconveniencing you.

SPEAKER_00 32:21

I mean, notice I mean, you think about this. If there was anybody in the universe who actually did know what was best for you, yeah, that was Jesus. That was Jesus. Yeah. And how forceful was he was he in making that happen?

SPEAKER_01 32:35

Yeah, he was not in a hurry.

SPEAKER_00 32:37

He he was not in a hurry. He let you get it wrong. He never made you do what was good for you.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

He chose the wrong guys to follow him for sure, according to the gospels. Yeah. I mean.

SPEAKER_04 32:47

Can I ask you a question? So, in regards to patience, I think I struggle to give myself patience in my cut to me. Yeah, in my journey with the Lord. I think like as you're reading the fruit and and the characteristics of God, I have a like most of us, have a beautiful desire to want to be like Jesus and also the amazing awareness of how far we are from being like Jesus. And I think I struggle so much and like have so much frustration in not being like Jesus in certain ways. And I want to ask for me and anybody listening like, how do you enjoy the process with Jesus rather than shaming yourself and being so frustrated and beating yourself up for not being where you think you should be?

SPEAKER_00 33:41

That's really good. I I would I would say the place to start is to realize what you've already articulated. You're not in charge of any of this. Who is it who knows you best, who loves you most, who desires deeper than you desire you to become fully yourself? Well, that one's the one who's in charge of the process, right? So he knows that he could change you in a heartbeat, right? But that that's not how human beings actually work. He's not gonna force an outcome.

SPEAKER_05 34:17

Right.

SPEAKER_00 34:17

So it's like uh back in the day I was an amateur woodworker, right? And sometimes uh in in working with wood, you want to bend wood to fit a profile or a frame. So you get a steam box that is literally steam and so heat, and then you have the wood on a in a in a pressure, right? And if you bend it too fast, it breaks. So he knows what breaking looks like, and he's not gonna do that right in that in that in that sense. So so part of it is is uh again back to the rejoicing. We Paul says everything with Thanksgiving. Yeah, yeah, this is taking longer than you thought it could be. I wonder why that might be. Well, is it because I'm saying no to where I should be saying yes? So it's an ongoing conversation. Is it that I'm more intent on the outcome than I am on the relationship?

SPEAKER_02 35:13

Right.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Do I want the result of being with Jesus more than I actually really want to be with Jesus? Is it about self-improvement or is it about learning presence? Do you see? Uh and fortunately, he's not he's not gonna let you get away with utilizing him for your own advantage.

SPEAKER_03 35:35

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 35:37

Right?

SPEAKER_01 35:37

Darren's yeah, well, I think what you're describing and what you're describing unintentionally is using Jesus for an outcome, right? Which that's not who Jesus is. So you have an idol, you have a wrong version of God, you have a distorted vision of not only Jesus, but the purpose of your life, which is to enjoy him. And I think it's interesting because like how long have you been a Christian?

SPEAKER_04 36:06

I've been walking with Jesus for like five years.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

So five years, you're like, and she's like frustrated on her progress, you know, and like it's like okay, give it 50 and then let's talk.

SPEAKER_02 36:18

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Like, I think we have to have a longer, slower vision for life with God. Eugene Peterson would call it the long obedience in the same direction. We're talking about if you live, you're gonna live for five million years or beyond, five million years or beyond, the journey you're on doesn't stop when you die, it continues into the age to come. And that process of becoming like Jesus will continue on forever in the glory of Jesus, and we'll be closer to him. So things I hope will get easier, but it I still think it will be a process of growth. Yeah, and it's about proximity to him and time with him.

SPEAKER_00 36:54

Yeah, at the same time, I want to hold out the promise of progress.

SPEAKER_01 36:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 37:00

I don't want to, I don't want to give up on just tripping over the just forgiven boundary. I want to say, wait, I can I can think with the mind of Christ now. Can I can I can can we get down the road on that? And that's what I think he wants because it's the usefulness piece.

SPEAKER_01 37:21

So yes, and and well, and so yes, so you're saved into this without condition. You're saved by grace, of course, and now we're walking in towards Christ-likeness, which I do think like growth can happen sooner than you think. Like a year from now, you'll be like, wow, I've become a different person. And we all know this. It is usually the hardest things in life that do the most work for our transformation if we learn to suffer with those, with Jesus in those things. And those are the hardest things.

SPEAKER_00 37:51

I've been playing with this, to be honest. I think the hard things prepare us for the really hard things, which are the good things.

SPEAKER_02 37:59

Wow. Explain it.

SPEAKER_00 38:00

When somebody goes through pain, suffering, whatever, if they have started to lean towards Jesus, he's their first course, right? But when good things happen, they don't do that. So those things are harder, if you will, in the formational piece. Because we think I deserve that. All these extra this is wonderful, right? And to be able to turn the good towards Jesus as well as the heart, I think that that's the muscle memory, that's the maturity. That's great.

SPEAKER_01 38:30

That's it's when when do people pray when they lose the job, when the loved ones exactly when do they not pray? When they got the promotion, when they're, you know.

SPEAKER_00 38:37

Yeah. So in the early stages, I do think, and early could be 25, 30, 40, 50 years, right? Yeah, can it yes, suffering trains us, hardship trains us, hard difficulties train us? But I think I love it's so good. When when at the end of the age, what will we hear him say? Well done. Enter in to joy.

SPEAKER_01 39:00

Yeah, to your master's happiness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:03

Enter into joy.

SPEAKER_00 39:04

Yeah. What?

SPEAKER_01 39:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 39:06

Where does it say that in Matthew's Gospel?

SPEAKER_01 39:09

Yeah, Matthew's gospel, the parables.

SPEAKER_00 39:11

It's it's the well done piece. Enter into the joy. Yeah. And not just joy, but the joy of the Lord. Yeah. That of your master, yeah. So so I think, I think all of the pain and suffering and difficulty, as challenging and difficult as that is, is actually not the hardest part. I think it's training us for the hardest part, which is is is the joy, is the love, is the because I think it's more challenging for many of us to rejoice, if you will, when when good things are are happening. We don't even think to rejoice. We don't we we we think at some level perhaps that it's a reward that I have deserved, or I'm just thankful for it, and then I run off like some of my kids did when they were younger with the popsicle without turning to orient what who gave it to me. Right.

SPEAKER_04 40:06

A hundred percent.

SPEAKER_00 40:07

So anyway, so um, so patience uh is is part of that and and moves us towards uh towards and and I do think one more thing on this, that patience isn't just waiting around. It has an intentionality to it, it has a focus to it, it has a uh a presence to it.

SPEAKER_02 40:27

I love that.

SPEAKER_00 40:28

So we're not just checking out until he finally gets around to the outcome. There is an engagement with with with patience. Then the next one, uh now, so those are kind of love is the core, then uh joy and peace and patience start to turn in the health of the soul. And now we look even more fully, love, love kind of from the core. And the first thing I think that looks like is is the kindness and goodness of the fruit of the spirit. Yeah. Uh uh, kindness is the rough equivalent of of mercy. Uh, goodness is the rough equivalent of grace. Okay. So kindness is withholding what maybe somebody deserves. Wow. Goodness is doing for them what they don't deserve. This kindness is not this Mr. Rogers, let's all be Canadian, you know, kind of nice people. I like Mr. Rogers, don't they? I do I love Mr. Rogers, but I think we we we tend to think, you know, that's for those kinds of people. But kindness is if God was not kind, we would not be here.

SPEAKER_02 41:38

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00 41:40

It's the kindness of God that enables us to risk repentance, Paul says, right? Because when we come to him, what do we find? An angry finger shaking, I'm gonna make you pay. No, it's come on home. I've already paid. You're welcome. You know?

SPEAKER_04 41:58

That is the great I am so happy you said that. And so everybody hears it again. Kindness is like mercy, it's not doing to somebody what they deserve to be done to them. And goodness is equivalent to grace, doing for somebody what they don't deserve, something good that they didn't deserve. And I think that is just so good for us. I think a lot of us might perceive kindness as just being nice and giving someone a smile, but it's actually like going out of your way to withhold and and particularly exactly that.

SPEAKER_00 42:33

It's actually they deserve something other. Yes, right. They deserve justice. That they deserve justice.

SPEAKER_04 42:40

And kindness says, See, this is good for someone like me and and probably a lot of people out there who have like a high justice meter. And if if something happens and someone needs to be told the truth about the situation, it's up to us to let them know when in actuality, unless you're being called to do that, the kind thing is to withhold.

SPEAKER_00 43:00

And unless love has paved the way for that to be heard without harm.

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 43:04

I think what's hard to I'm sitting because you're saying these things. And I don't know if you know the impact, because I'm now experiencing moments in relationships where I was not kind.

SPEAKER_04 43:18

Same.

SPEAKER_01 43:19

You know, and it's not like bad, it's that the way I treated my oldest son or the way I, you know, was trying to educate him or my my wife. Like just what you're describing is a disposition in relationships. These for the the fruit of the spirit, the whole the the healthy soul is not noticed when it's sitting alone. It's noticed by how it's engaged exactly when things don't go their way. Yeah. That's what's so crazy. Cause I always read, uh forgive me, but like when I read The Fruit of the Spirit, I'm always like, oh yeah, this is like such a cool Hallmark movie card, you know, like a Hallmark card, a Hallmark movie. It's like this, oh, just cute, you know, like. I want to be like Paul preaching Romans and you know going after it. Only these are like warfare uh characteristics. Very much so. Like they're they're actually they're actually grown in the battlefield of life with the world that's broken. Yeah, and so all of a sudden, like true masculinity, true femininity, true humanity at its best is you know merciful in kindness and grace with good.

SPEAKER_00 44:31

Well, and and they are kind of the English equivalent, right? Kindness, goodness, mercy, justice, just uh uh grace to the Old Testament Hebrew characteristics of God's character, as said in Chemet. Yeah. Loving kindness, tender mercy. Wow, those ways that he identified himself to Moses in Exodus 33, 34, somewhere in there. That no, this is who I am. This is what I'm really like. So for us, kindness feels like, you know, kind of a milk toast, kind of a weakness almost. Yeah, you be great, they'd be nice, but actually they're the most powerful forces for transformation in the universe. Yes.

SPEAKER_05 45:14

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 45:14

I mean, think about it. Yeah, it is it possible that repentance is enabled by the fact that I'm not gonna get dinged when I own my stuff. Yeah, you know?

SPEAKER_01 45:27

Oh, absolutely. I think about when my kid comes to me with something that's happened. I was trained to get a massive reaction of disappointment and anger. Yeah, that's what I would receive. So you just then what do you do? You perform and never make a mistake in front of your dad again, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:46

Wow, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 45:47

So it conditions you. This is a trauma thing. Yeah, my kids don't have that. Oh, I I make mistakes, but for the most part, they they have a father who's like, tell me more, what did you learn? So they come to me about everything, everything they're confessing stuff, they don't even realize they're confessing. Wow. Because what they get from Alex and I is what we've learned over time is this this whole idea. Yeah. And that's been that's had to be relearned, and it's come a lot from your teaching in your life.

SPEAKER_00 46:14

Well, and it's stuff you learn as you go, right? Because we will try everything but kindness as a way because it's inefficient, it it's very inefficient, except it's the only thing that actually works.

SPEAKER_01 46:26

Well, and you said this, but it's his kindness that leads toward leads us towards repentance, like Romans talk. It's the kindness of God is what leads us towards repentance. Yeah, keep going. This is good, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:37

And then goodness is is on the other side of God's assertive, he's at work in all things to restore the Genesis one, it is good. Yeah. And whether it's creation or so, so the beauty of goodness is that whatever we put into the system, he is at work in that moment. So if I put my failure into the system, he is at work in that failure. It's not like, oh crap, now what do I do? It's no, no, no, I can work with this. I I do good stuff with with dirt and disappointment and challenge, right? So I know I'm getting wrecked. It becomes this, it's it becomes this opportunity to see, oh, look, you and you look back on how he has redeemed relationships and disappointments and failures. And I mean, you look at poor Peter, John chapter 20, you know, do you love me? Oh, here we're gonna, do we have to do this? Lord, you know that I love you. And then the three stages down until finally he's at the point of his full betrayal, right? Around that charcoal fire where he said, I don't I don't even know him. And Jesus used that feed my sheep, shepherd my flock, care for my lambs. Uh Jesus will take that that betrayal, will take that, you know, whatever language you want to use to gather up your most disappointing moment. If we bring it to him, his goodness will be at work to redeem it. It's astonishing.

SPEAKER_04 48:14

Well, what's so cool is even obviously Genesis 50, 20, whatever the enemy meant for evil, God will use for good. But it's just, it is so like God to make it so that no matter, even if we experience pain and suffering, like no matter what Satan or the evil of the world throws at us, God still uses it for our benefit and for the benefit of his people. So nothing is actually ever truly like a loss. Like he makes good of everything.

SPEAKER_00 48:41

That's right. Well, the uh uh one minor if we don't offer it up, if we don't offer it up, then you've got to redeem it on your own.

SPEAKER_03 48:49

I don't know how to do that.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

We do not know how to do that.

SPEAKER_03 48:52

No, thank you. I can't do it. I'm tripping out on something because you said something that I just I love this relationship so much, by the way, because I never see him in this sort of diagonal.

SPEAKER_01 49:02

I'm always teaching. I love this because I'm I'm the student again. I I you said God's goodness is always at work trying to bring back the good Genesis one. Yeah, that is crazy because I'm thinking now, you know, of that I've never put that together. Like if whatever you throw towards in the direction of God, he's absorbing to redeem back to Genesis one and two, right? This so you think worst case scenario, let's kill his son with the worst possible death ever created in humanity. Yes. And God, and then we're gonna absorb that along with death, yes, and we're gonna create resurrection. Yes, a new entry into life.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 49:52

Ha!

SPEAKER_03 49:54

No way.

SPEAKER_00 49:56

Well, and that's why Paul says, you know, if the principalities and powers had figured this out, they wouldn't have crucified him.

SPEAKER_05 50:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 50:04

But they didn't figure it out. He made a public spectacle of them. He did. He did. They didn't see it. Tell me your worst.

SPEAKER_01 50:10

He made work with that. Oh my goodness.

SPEAKER_00 50:13

Well, and why he invites us then, Matthew chapter five, into becoming those kinds of people. I want you to be so good that when somebody attacks you, slaps you, insults you, you have it within you without having to think about it to turn the other cheek, to carry the pack a second mile, to give your shirt when your cloak would have been enough. Because your goodness, assertive force for good, restoration to that Genesis 1 reality has been formed in you by affiliation with Jesus.

SPEAKER_04 50:46

I mean I'm reevaluating my entire life, by the way.

SPEAKER_01 50:49

It changes the entire dynamic of the way we're fighting as Christians. Well, oh, yeah, to assert ideas that are associated with Jesus in a way that have that are not done in the way of Jesus. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good. Wow. Yeah. How many more do you have to get through? A few. A couple more. A couple more.

SPEAKER_00 51:12

Yeah. And the harder ones are coming. Great, but for me at least. Next one is is the the core mark is faithfulness, yeah, which is the ability to, because we're loved by God, I can show up, I can give my word, and I can keep it, even if it's to my harm. I can be uh and faithfulness, like the others, are tested in uh challenging times. It's easy to be faithful, faithfulness of God when things are are challenging, but you know the origin of the classic hymn, Great Is Your Faithfulness, comes from the middle of lamentations. Wow. When his face is in the dirt and he is just grunting out, Great is your faithfulness. And it is that moment of awareness that, well, again, we're in we're invited into. I can be reliable, I can be a person of character, I can be a person of integrity, believability, uh, all of the things that I even when it's difficult, I can I can continue in faithfulness. Yeah. So think about this, for example, in a marriage environment. What does it mean to be a faithful husband or wife? Well, it means to keep showing up with love despite whatever it is you might be getting back from in the moment, right? Or when things, when the bottom falls apart, uh, we want to pay attention to that. So, and that is back on, you know, the the kindness and goodness, faithfulness, peace now works onto this. Because we have been loved, because God is kind, we can be kind, that means I can forgive.

SPEAKER_02 52:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:50

That means I can work for the receiving of others who have disappointed and wounded me. In fact, Jesus says, if you don't forgive, you probably haven't fully realized your own forgiveness.

SPEAKER_05 53:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

And you're not walking in that forgiveness. Because if you were, you would realize that $100 debt that that guy owes you is nothing compared to the million and a half you owed me.

unknown 53:14

Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 53:15

Matthew 18, I think, right? Yep. So, so it empowers our forgiving and our receiving of others, and then walking faithfully in relationships, showing up when people don't show up, becoming a kind of person uh who can be taken advantage of if it comes to that, and do so with kindness and generosity. We want to move very, very quickly to the limits on forgiveness. How many times? Peter's question. The limits on faithfulness, when do I put a boundary up? If you start with the limits, you won't enter into the freedom. Wow. That's really so if you enter into the freedom, then you'll get a better sense because the boundaries come from the inside out. Yeah, right. Then we move into uh gentleness and self-control, the final two in the health of the soul. Gentleness is using usually physical but often emotional strength. Yeah. Uh uh, having that under control. And self-control is uh legitimate desire that could be overwhelming and uh letting that be under control. So often it's about sexual self-control, that eros that wells up, that wants to uh engage in relationship and maybe not even relationship, just pleasure, self-control says, I don't need to do that. I can manage my desire. I don't have to have what I want in order to be happy. Yeah, I don't have to assert my will in order to be satisfied. So gentleness and uh self-control, because I'm loved by God, I can manage my strength, I can manage my desire, I can see them redemptive. And of course, this is the primary mark of maturity and wisdom. The mature person has realized I don't need to be bullied by my desire, I don't need to be pushed around by it. Oh, that's so good. Then I can learn how to love more fully uh from the center. And and I will say that if you want to learn how to be angry in Jesus' name, that is, how to recognize where the boundaries have been violated, and then choose what kind of response to be engaged in, like Jesus did with the temple or with the children or whatever, then then uh gentleness and self-control are gonna be kind of fundamental to that, to that process.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

I I heard the Greek definition for gentleness that's used is a term that was used for a war horse that was trained for battle. That's the word described. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 55:59

Because again, for us in our culture, like we do with kindness and goodness, we we make them weakness. Yeah, versus you can't be gentle if you're weak. If you don't know the power you possess.

SPEAKER_04 56:09

Wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 56:11

I I think we're uh we're at this the close of this one, but what's probably I just need to say this, you probably need to go back and then re-listen to multiple definitions of the fruit of the spirit that Pastor Bill brought because I'm getting wrecked thinking about the implications of all this, that this is this is a this is the foundation right for where we're going next, which is uh the integration of a healthy soul, ways that it goes sideways, but how do we we now lean in towards uh stewarding the soul that we are? So that's where we're going next, I think. Sounds like fun. Sounds like fun.

SPEAKER_04 56:51

So amazing.

SPEAKER_01 56:52

Thanks for joining us on this podcast Bible study.

SPEAKER_04 56:55

It's always a good one when someone asks to bring me tissues. We're doing well.

SPEAKER_01 56:59

It's so good. Thank you, Pastor. Thank you so much. Good to be with you. All right, we'll see you guys next week.

SPEAKER_04 57:04

Bye.