Bible Study Podcast

Don't Mistake Adrenaline for Anointing

• Darren Rouanzoin, Angela Halili

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Making disciples does not mean getting people to pray a prayer and tick a box on belief. It means immersing them in the character of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the way you live — and then teaching them the patterns of life that flow out of believing the right things. This episode reframes the Great Commission from the ground up and makes the case that you are the only Jesus some people will ever see.

In this episode:

  • Adrenaline vs. anointing — and how easily we confuse them
  • Why the early church was seen as a philosophy not a religion — and why that distinction matters
  • The prize is not a crowd — pizza gets people to show up, but that is not discipleship
  • Jesus chose the shepherd as the primary metaphor for leadership for a reason
  • Angela's experience of being thrown on stages before being rooted in a local church
  • The only Jesus people will ever see is the one you represent — do they fall in love?
  • What Matthew 28 actually means — soaking people in the character of the Trinity by how you live


SPONSORS & SUPPORT
This series is brought to you with the support of the New International Version (NIV) — the Bible translation we use when reading, studying, and preaching. With more than 650 million copies distributed worldwide, the NIV is the most widely read Bible translation in contemporary English, delivering the very best combination of accuracy, readability, and clarity. It is true to God's Word and true to the reader.


📖 NIV Lectio Bible: Rediscover a contemplative method of reading Scripture with a seamless, minimalistic design.https://bibl.es/NIVLectioBible

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We are also supported by Logos Bible Software — the tool all three of us use when studying Scripture. Logos isn't just a Bible app, it is your whole study desk, your library, and your study partner in one place. Start your free trial and check out the Bible Study Pdcst bundles at https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst

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SPEAKER_00

Hey friends, thanks for joining us at the Bible study podcast. I want to let you know that we are a nonprofit and we have some partners that are supporting our work here on this podcast. And one of those partners is NIV, the new international version of Bible translation that I've been using as a pastor for the last 18 years. I love the translation for its readability, for its credibility. And if you research Bible translations, what stands out is the committee that's responsible for the translation process for NIV in particular. It is extraordinary the work they do to keep and preserve the integrity of the translation. But they also have sent me lots of resources, and NIV is connected to Zondervan and other uppercollins. But I want to share two specific products that I love. First is the Lectio Bible. This is the NIV translation with Zondervan. And this Bible doesn't have chapter and verses, it reads like a book. So it's designed to be read the way it was originally written, where you're being formed by scripture, not just informed by information. And the other one is this new one that I've been diving into. It's called the Jesus Bible. And what I love about this Bible, if you're looking for one, this Bible has uh study principles in there, but it shows you throughout the entire scripture how this the whole Bible is pointing to Jesus. So if you go to Genesis, you'll see the ways that Genesis points to the story of Jesus. You'll look at Exodus, you'll see how Exodus points to the story of Jesus. And I love it that this will help you see clearly that this the Bible is one continuous story and it's leading us to the person of Christ. I want to say thank you, NIV, for helping us out on this podcast, but check out their website, the link's below. Um, all right, let's get into it with the Bible study podcast. Everyone says anointing, I'm like, what is that? I don't know. I'm like, it's not anointing, it's preparation and a life well lived.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because I think anointing is actually a really good word, but we confuse it with adrenaline too much.

SPEAKER_00

Can we start right now? Yeah. What? We're starting. Our side conversations right now are so life-giving. I'm getting like welcome to the Bible study podcast. I'm Darren.

SPEAKER_02

Hi, I'm Ann.

SPEAKER_00

Hi, I'm Bill. Pastor Bill is in the house again. We are we're actually talking about Anointing versus adrenaline. Adrenaline. Can you just we're not talking about that right now, but just finish that up.

SPEAKER_05

Well, what we were talking about was was especially in our circles of preaching or performance, we will mistake adrenaline for anointing. That is this surge of energy and the temperature rise in the body and the energy level. We will assume that, especially if we're getting feedback from the crowd and we're reading and in that in that space, and we will mistake that for an actual response. Um, and it may or may not be.

SPEAKER_00

So Angela's doing a tour, traveling all over the world preaching. We I lead Garden Church. Pastor Bill's been one of the teaching pastors and on our team for from the beginning. We now have five services at our our two locations, and I was just uh giving my sense of this last week, which was uh like the nine o'clock was quiet, the 10 o'clock was very fire vocal, you know. As far as like adrenaline surge, there's something that happens in that one. And then the 11 o'clock was also quiet, and then we had a different teacher at the 12 and the one o'clock. Um, but you were talking about just faithfully preaching, yeah, not worrying about the outcome.

SPEAKER_05

Because you can't, otherwise, you're gonna let you're gonna be driving, looking in the rear view mirror all the time. You're gonna be constantly trying to adjust direction based on what you perceive. And because, like we were just talking about this, the first three parables that Jesus teaches as he heads into public ministry are parables that say you don't know what's going on. Wow. Your job is to sow say as well as you can, you're gonna get four possible responses from four the same people all four times. You're gonna get them. And so just don't sow as faithfully as you can, make sure the seed is as good as it can be, because another parable, he says you don't know how the kingdom grows anyway. So true. So just do your best and then pay attention, keep alert.

SPEAKER_00

I love that you so you when you're talking about preaching, you're using Jesus' parables to frame preaching. Is that what you're doing right now? That's from Mark chapter four, the parable of the sower. That's the one, the parable of the growing seed. Yep.

SPEAKER_05

The parable of the mustard seed.

SPEAKER_00

The parable of the mustard seed. And there's a lamp on a stand in between there. But um, so your premise for all the preachers listening is what again?

SPEAKER_05

Faithful, character-based, yeah, because there's no other practice in which the nature, the character I I don't think that's probably too str too extreme, but I don't think there's another public practice that depends as much on the character of the person as does pastor pastoral preaching.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, now we're just gonna let this flow for a second, okay? So in a world where influence, popularity, you know, likes follows, yeah, is where people primarily listen and get content. Explain what you're saying.

SPEAKER_05

Well, the challenge, you know, with the sage on the stage is nobody knows the sage. Nobody knows what how he treats his kids, nobody knows how she handles her relationships with staff, nobody knows how they treat the waitress at the restaurant they go to after the service where they've just had the glory moment, but treat abysmally a woman who has been created to be God's image. So if it doesn't anchor in character, which is formed in the in the lonely place as well as the secret place, is formed when nobody's watching.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_05

Uh that that sooner or later, and and because we have learned how to perform, even in these kind of preaching moments, we can fool most of the people most of the time. They don't know that we had a major argument with our spouse on the way into church. They don't know that we're embarrassed at what we were looking at at three o'clock in the morning. They don't they they they they don't know, and in fact, sometimes we will ride the wave of that guilt and they will think it's anointing.

SPEAKER_02

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_05

But it's actually just our emotional reaction to the guilt that we are feeling, to the shame that is driving us. And because we have not trained people well in discernment, they won't they won't know. And because the seed is still fairly good, God honors his word, it goes out, um, still good things happen, and then if we're really not paying attention, we will think that we need that moment of naughtiness as a way of supercharging the next moment. And it's just it's deadly over over time, over time.

SPEAKER_03

Over time.

SPEAKER_05

Where it really hits is people such as yourself who travel speak to a different I I speak to a different congregation every week. Yeah. But I try to be known in all those congregations in as many of those congregations as I can.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, so oh man, I feel like you just said so many things without saying it. And in a world right now where you know, in a world right now where people are platformed because of their high capacity performance, are given um special treatment in our celebrity culture context, where in the church world, they're not actually local pastors anymore. Right. They're influencers and you know, uh conference speakers or book writers and podcasters, you know, and so there's a disembodied nature to their leadership, which it's according to the scripture, leadership is always supposed to be embodied to the local church, right? Right. And it even the translocal empowerment in Acts where you see Paul sent out as an apostle, or all of them, you know, apostle, prophet, evangelist, shepherd, teachers in Ephesians chapter four, those are for the local churches. So they're in relationship in service to the local churches, not for book sales, platforms, podcast following, retirement programs, stuff like that. So there's this whole industry, and I would say I just want to do a quick nod if I can, because a lot of people are talking about this um like other movement coming out that's challenging the organizational realities of the local church today, the mega churches, and they're saying there's corruption and all these things. Um it, I don't remember what it's called, but it's like a popular growing thing where there's just a criticism of the organized church, like people are misusing money and all of those things. So there's like this swing to be like, let's get back to the the early church where none of that is happening. And I just that is such a straw man fallacy because the early church was organized. The early church had lists that had or you know, uh widows on it. The early church was funded and financially established. It was it was a mega church by Pentecost, like the birth of the church gave birth to a megachurch. So whatever categories you want to use to kind of throw out organization as a as a problem, that's that's not right either. Right. But going back to this con that I could I could go off on that. But my my point is there's something you're saying that I think is lost. And it's it's been in ingrained in me since I've known you since I was a 19-year-old kid, that uh ministry doesn't exist apart from relationship. That the the ministry you're talking about of character, of accountability, like someone can't make you accountable. You have to hold yourself accountable. And I would argue that happens through intentional relationships.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, 100%.

SPEAKER_00

That we live in a moment where those are not the values of leadership anymore. Right. Um, well, it is there, it is, but it's not the ones that are elevated. Correct. Um, and I think what you're saying is what needs to be elevated, this idea of localized leadership that's accountable. I was talking, uh, we we had hosted a Father's Day thing, and um, all my friends were over, all the dads, and we're sitting and we were talking about this because we've been in each other's lives for about 18 to you know, 13 to 18 years. We've all raised our kids together, and three of them are on staff or in eldership at our church, and these are close friends, they're six couples. Um, and we are just talking about accountability, like how the way we've lived is we've we know how we parent, we call each other out on how we've raised our kids, we call each other out on our marriage, we call each other out on what God's put in our hands to steward. And we've we've helped each other grow as men of God. And, you know, we're just this, and there's just this beautiful accountability. We know the warts and the bruises and the scars and the ugly side, and we've just loved each other. And that's at the center of our church. And that's not how, you know, there's not a disconnect between me and them. We're completely held accountable. But what you're describing just needs to be advocated for today.

SPEAKER_05

Well, and especially in a in a disembodied ministry model that we use the language of apostolic to describe. But Paul, like when he writes to the church at Rome, he's got like what, 25 names of people who attest to him, who knew him personally in whose home he had stayed, who knew what he was like when the spotlight wasn't on. Yeah. That that's the model. And Jesus, I mean, here he is wandering around for three and a half years with 12 people who knew him intimately, who knew him when he was angry and when he was sad and when he was tired. Yeah. And he was willing to be known by them. He didn't count on the mystery of not being known as a source of authority. And I think we have gotten away from that to our harm. In fact, a lot of the scandals that we could talk about, I think, arise because people are not known or not willing to be known. Uh we mistake anointing for uh for character and it is not. We we mistake rainmaking for success and it is not.

SPEAKER_03

What's rainmaking?

SPEAKER_05

Uh making stuff happen. Yeah. Miracles or prophetic words or crowds showing up is the main drive. A mind meld there. That was that prophetic. Yeah, that was kind of scary.

SPEAKER_03

That was that was rainmaking in the would you call what I do with tour itinerant ministry? Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and this is uh like, and I've shared this with you, but Angela came to our garden church like uh two years ago. Yeah, and I'll never forget you coming in. Yeah, you're like wrecked. You're like, how you know, ministry time was happening. Should we just had a normal service?

SPEAKER_03

And we had just started tour. We had like one gathering in in Atlanta, I think.

SPEAKER_00

And you were like, How do you do this?

SPEAKER_03

I was like, How do you lead a room into the presence of God like this? I need to do this, and exact words. Well, it's been 17 years in the making. Yeah, like, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And and and then it was like a conversation, hey, come on the podcast of this stuff. And my heart was like, No, that's not how we do it. Mainly because Pastor Bill has trained me. Like there's no shortcut to ministry, there's no shortcut to faithfulness. And and I remember you're like, you were trying to meet, and and I it just never happened. I was like, forget it. Like, I'm not gonna do this, but you stayed. And then, you know, like a year later, I come back from sabbatical and we start connecting with a small group and we start doing this stuff, how to study scripture. And I watched you dive in and try to learn how to do expository preaching and and develop. And and then now you're anchored in a local church. I love it. You're serving, you're on serve teams, you're serving in youth, like you're stepping into these things where that is a testimony in many ways to what a lot of people don't have. Like you would go to churches and they would just throw you on the stage.

SPEAKER_03

Oh, yeah. I mean, I that's and especially when I even started Girls Gone Bible, I was not root rooted in a local church at all. I was church hopping. I went to every church in LA. And it wasn't until I got planned. We kind of, I personally almost did it like the reverse way. People typically will like be rooted in a local church, get a platform, and then be like, I don't need to be under any covering. I can just go off and do my own thing. Whereas I think I was platformed and then I was like, oh, I desperately need covering. I desperately need to be rooted. And that's the most important thing that I can do in this season and for the rest of my life. Um, but what I was gonna say was we have GGB gatherings on tour across the country, and I make it such a point when we're in these, because we're in random cities with with a bunch of people who know us or at least think they know us, and but we don't know them. And so I'm constantly like, you guys, this is a one night, and it's so special that we get to be together and worship Jesus and hear the word and like and and receive the gospel, but you need to be rooted in a local church. You need to be walking with people who know you. We don't know you. And then we even will do like we'll try to talk to as many people as we can, and people will ask for advice. And and I'm like, I can I like feel uncomfortable even giving you advice because I don't know your story. I don't know. You need people, you need leadership. And so yeah, that's what we really make a point when we're on the road of like, this is just one night, you need you need something way beyond just tonight.

SPEAKER_05

Well, and it calls then every local church to be the church, yeah. Totally. To to to celebrate what it is called to be in its space. And uh it is tragic that so many people have been wounded by the church. Yeah, uh, because they have. Um and Jesus was wounded by the church, so we shouldn't be surprised by that.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_05

On the other hand, it's also sad that many people have wounded the church. Yes. And and I think that's the balance that needs to be struck on the other side. Yeah. That is to say, we are the church. There is no church independent of the people who show up. Yeah. So to raise up pastors who are not looking for a platform, who are understanding their role being, to steward people in the lives that they are given, spiritual formation towards Christ-likeness, is that's that's as good as it gets. And that takes time, it takes relationships, it takes um not programs as much as personal conversations, and the dynamic of that over time is transformative.

SPEAKER_02

Totally.

SPEAKER_00

I think this is so great because this is part of a unique uh unfortunately I'm saying unique because it should be the common. Yeah. But this is what has been a unique drumbeat of your ministry life and raising up pastors since I've known you and for 30 something years at Vanguard and the influence you've had, even now, like the the pastors in Singapore you're ministering to, and so cool, like getting them to understand this piece, which it it is lost because I feel like what's happened is like young people, like I I walk with a lot of young pastors, and uh it feels like young pastors are trying to accelerate the role social media plays in ministry. And because there is a role that social media plays, there's a role that podcasts play. Now, when I was starting out, we didn't have social media, we didn't have podcasts, you didn't have live streams. And if I was a 20-something starting garden all over again in the climate of the church today, it would destroy me. And you know it would, because I mean the people pleaser, the need for success, the the mechanisms of doing that would just destroy what wasn't there at first, the identity that has now been established through years of suffering. No, but like recently, what one of the young guys I walk with um hosted like a regional event that was very successful. Like hundreds of kids showed up for a multi-day event. Uh, youth pastors from all over joined in. And it was one of the best things I participated in. I was like, this is incredible for youth, like it went off. But I remember having the sense like this young guy gets a glimpse of his future. Like his future is gonna involve regional leadership and it's just gonna grow. And this is what happens like young guys don't have pastors in their life to say, put your head down. So I text him the next day, Monday. I was like, hey, I sent a voice to my mom, like, hey, you did an amazing job. I'm so proud of you. What an incredible thing you did. I can't believe how God used what your vision was, blah, blah, blah. Affirm the heck out of him. Now, don't think about it. Don't try to build on the momentum. Get off social media, get back. The work you're doing is with the 50 kids that are showing up to your mid, you know, your youth group on Thursday night. Focus on there, on them, not on the pastors, not on the regional, just get your head back into the things that Jesus is about. But that's coming from your influence in what has been my life in ministry. Like, I mean, what else would you encourage as we're on this subject? And then we'll keep moving. Because itinerary is a gift. People have that. I mean, that's a gift.

SPEAKER_05

And I don't want to disparage any of the ways that the gospel gets out. Any of the ways. But I think if we can keep in mind that the prize is not a crowd, the goal is not having a bunch of people show up. Yes. That's easy to do. You just serve pizza. I mean, there are ways of getting people to show up. But at the end of the day, the goal is are people being formed of the likeness of Christ? Are they being brought under the shadow of the cross? Are they being invited to submit their whole lives to the Lordship of Jesus with the final result of love, joy, peace, patience, the character of Christ, um manifesting, showing up over over time. Um and the and the problem is, I mean, it's it's our version of you know Constantine back in 350 and where the church became the official kind of state religion, and it went sideways. I mean, we do better as a church when we're under a persecution, when we're going through some challenging times.

SPEAKER_00

Um historically, that's the case.

SPEAKER_05

Right. And it's not that this you know business school model doesn't work, it's just that it doesn't produce the kingdom.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

You you can manage, you can lead, but leading in Jesus' name, that's a different dynamic. That's a different way of of thinking about about the local church. I mean, there's a reason Jesus chose shepherd as the word.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

It is somebody. Who is disreputable in his culture? Shepherds are not highly regarded. They just show up with the sheep and do life with the flock. And that dynamic, I think, will save us if we can get off the need to be acclaimed and celebrated and leveraged in ways that don't glorify God.

SPEAKER_00

He could have used a general, a soldier, a business leader. Yeah, he could have used any model, but he chose the shepherd, which you said that sheep think of a shepherd as just a tall sheep. Right, right.

SPEAKER_05

Because they smell like sheep.

SPEAKER_00

They smell, yeah. I love that.

SPEAKER_03

That's so sweet.

SPEAKER_00

Smell like the sheep.

SPEAKER_03

Can I say something really quick too? I um and I want you guys to clip this. So I knew Darren for like a year before we started this podcast for way over a year, a year and a half. And I want people to know, and I think we've said this before, but this podcast was my idea. I asked Darren if he wanted to do this. And I feel like it's so important for people to know like you never, you were never thinking about social media. You weren't thinking about being out there, you weren't thinking about being seen ever. Like I asked you to do this, and I just think it was, I just want people to be aware of even our like dynamic. Um, like I'm close to you and and your wife Alex, and I love you both so much, but like this was my idea. You never won, you never asked for this, you never sought this out, you didn't care. And when the opportunity presented itself, I'm I imagine you were very prayerful.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, it's funny because what this came out of was me, you came into the church, and then you have this massive platform. And I was like, Well, how are you learning how to teach? And you're like, Well, I'm watching YouTube videos and studying. I'm like, okay, wait, hold on. Like, I'm like, well, let me give you tools. So we met with a small group and I was teaching you how to study scripture, how to preach, how to how to how to go into the word, everything you taught me in school to um do expository preaching. And in that process, it became clear like you one, you're a learner, that's great. But uh, this could become something that we give to your audience, to the people that you plot, you know, that follow you. And I I was I'm very hesitant on anything like that, mainly because um that's not how I've ever operated, but I brought it to my wife, I brought it to our core team, and we did discern it. And then this came out. And when we recorded, this is I'm like, we will do six episodes. Like that's all I thought. I'm like, we're just gonna do six and we'll figure it out. Yeah. Because somebody sponsored it, and then it was like, oh, this thing kind of took off and had a life of its own. And now it's brought a lot of joy, like like the opportunity of bringing Pastor Bill on. Oh, and I'm I'm trying to get him to start writing and publishing because it's time now that you record. It's still time, and I have a will for your life. You'll disguise it. I know you and your brother. I know, like the two brothers. My my my younger brother leads a church called Canopy in Costa Mesa, and he Bill just bounces back from our church.

SPEAKER_02

That is so sweet.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, it's so fun.

SPEAKER_00

But that's it. It's like I'm gonna I'm gonna bring a lot more friends. Like we have other guests that are coming, and I I love the idea of um I was I was walking, I was doing a prayer walk, and I was like, okay, what does this next year look like for this? And I just heard two things bring your friends, yes, and just preach the Bible. Like I want to do some episodes where we're just walking through Ephesians and that's what we got to get back to and just get some simple things and and then bringing people that have deeply influenced my life. Like I'm listening to this little, we were not gonna talk about this little section that came out in between the recording, but this this thing that you've carried, Bill, is what I wanted the world to see, and not that the world's watching, but more people understand that in some ways the most visible and the loudest ministries right now are not necessarily, they're not bad. I'm not saying they're bad. I'm not giving a qualitative what it is, but they they miss some of the things that we're talking about, this anchoring into the local church. Like when I was starting the church, there was like this new conversation about apostolic leadership. And and I believe in apostolic, I believe in the prophetic evangelist shepherd, I believe in all of it. What is apostolic leadership? Apostolic would be like the entrepreneur, uh, the church leader that is sent by God to break in new territories, to to carry kind of the Paul apostolic mission into the world. But there was like this recovery of the apostolic ministry that came out of some movements. And as a church planner, when you're you're in the middle of obscurity, you're they're literally, you know, I go from a mega church of 5,000 to 12 people in a basement that is the garden. You try to associate these significant things like apostleship to your identity to make something meaningful. When at the end of the day, it doesn't matter. Apostolic, prophetic, evangelist, shepherd teacher. Look, I know there's an obsession over that all of those things, just serve Jesus, serve the people that he brings to you. If if the church needs a teacher, become the best teacher that you can. If the church needs someone to walk with them as a shepherd, be a great shepherd. If if the city needs the evangelist, like Philip, show up to Samaria, become the evangelist. Cool, you are passing out foods to food to widows, but what this city needs now is an evangelist. Proclaim Jesus and heal the sick. Let's go. Like there, there's like this overobsession with my identity and the role I have and all you know, the platform stuff. And it's like, just serve Jesus, walk faithfully with the same people over a long period of time. Yeah, they're gonna hurt you, you're gonna hurt them, there's gonna be disappointment. Work it out in Christ-like ways and stay humble and see what God does. I think that that's what you've taught me over the years.

SPEAKER_05

Well, and and not to get obsessed with title, not to get obsessed with position. Yeah. The the apostles, it's not like they have it printed on their business card. It's it's this is what, oh, we see you doing this, we see you networking, we see you planting a non-but remember for every apostle, there was a a series of local churches that they were anchored in. Yeah. Ask them to be accountable. Paul is regularly reporting back to Jerusalem. He's a little bit anxious about what kind of response he's gonna get. When he goes back to Antioch, he tells people what he's been engaged in. He and Barnabas feel connected to that local local church. Um, and and to say those five things is the limit. No, there's so much more. No, no. There's the the Holy Spirit is not unimaginative when it comes to things that need to be done. Yeah, yeah. And if we would lay down our obsession with titles, especially self-proclaimed titles, or ones that we allow people to place on us and then live into, yeah, I think we would do much, much better. Just I think you're saying it exactly right. Is there a need to be met? Yeah. Well then maybe you, the apostle, can sweep up after the service. Yeah. You're you're not the you're not the one who's making anything happen here.

SPEAKER_00

Just um I I I want to just share some of these stories because I there's a a worship leader at our church who's successful, amazing young guy that came on. And our pastor Amin, who runs everything um in the church, he he kept seeing him being the last to leave in Costa Mesa. And he uh we use Vanguard University, so we you know rent that facility. And after weeks of this happening, he's like, What are you doing? He's like, this worship leader is like, he just finished, he gets there early, worships, you know. He's cleaning the consecration room, the green room. Wow. And he's putting it all back in order. And he's like, God made this a conviction of my heart that I would be the last to leave and leave it better than I found it, and this is the way I serve. And I'm like, that's exactly who you want. Wow. Leading the worship gathering at a church is the guy who says, My, I want to be the last to leave the setup and tear down moment.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And that I want to just honor that person because I feel like those are the things that are done. And this is the thing, churches are doing this all over the world. That's that that is the reality. This is happening everywhere. It's all over the world. Only the ones that are being spotlighted are not usually those people in those situations.

SPEAKER_05

That takes us right back to where we were with character as being the foundation. Who are you in Christ when nobody's around, when you have no spotlight on you?

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

When the only ones who know you are your close friends or your spouse or your kids, who are you in those spaces? And more particularly, how do you treat the people that don't get a vote on your popularity?

SPEAKER_00

Hey friends, thank you for joining us at Bible Study Podcast. I want to let you know that we have two friends that have sponsored us. Uh, one of those is Logos Bible Study app. They are an incredible resource for you. If you go to logos.com slash Bible Study P D C S T, you'll see a bunch of resources available for you. There we have a 60-day free trial along with other resources. But if you go there and download that, um you'll have access to lots of tools like word studies, commentaries, lots of different Bible translations. We're so excited to partner with them. Um, this is one of the app that I've used for over 20 years, and I've had a lot of guests on the show, um, and they've all been using this app. So I encourage you to download that and get the free trial started today.

SPEAKER_05

How do you treat the wait staff at the restaurant you go to after church on Sunday? That's fine. I mean, from my brief survey, people who work in restaurants hate Sunday lunches because the Christians all show up and they're obnoxious and rude.

SPEAKER_03

And then they don't tip generously.

SPEAKER_05

And they don't know.

SPEAKER_03

That's crazy.

SPEAKER_05

I know. I know. I remembered I read in a row. But that that becomes it's a tiny little thing. Maybe it doesn't matter, except I think tiny little things matter.

SPEAKER_00

The little thing is the big thing. It is, and and I think this is so good. I I mean, so you I remember character governs your ministry in the kingdom. This is what Jesus is after. Who you are when no one is around is who you are. And and this is hard because also what comes out with the people that you're closest to is the worst version of you. Yes, right? Because stress is there, anger is there, yeah. Uh all the ways that we know. So you don't have to be perfect, because then I don't want to say perform in those places, no, but recognize that this is what Jesus is after.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah. It's the only thing that can carry the weight of gifting. It's the only thing that can carry the weight of even the anointing thing that we've talked about earlier.

SPEAKER_00

What is the only thing that can carry the weight? So, young person that's listening, called to ministry, called to do great things, what's the process for them to stay to not shortcut their the journey?

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I think spiritual practices, Sabbath, word, prayer as conversation more than getting things done. Yeah. Uh solitude and silence, retreat, um, spiritual direction can be really helpful to assist in in those kinds of practices.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, let me back up because you you're used to leading to ministry context. And for those of you that haven't a clue of those ideas, you're talking about a quiet time that includes solitude and silence, being alone with God intentionally. This isn't about like, oh, I randomly here. I'm I'm creating a time to be alone with God, studying the word, like reading, memorizing, meditating, small chunks of scripture, large chunks, like the word of God is part of your journey, prayers, conversation. This is learning to dialogue and have a conversation with God. You said retreat. What is that?

SPEAKER_05

Retreat is is maybe taking one of your Sabbath days a month and just going and spending six or eight hours alone with Jesus and letting him love you for no good reason.

SPEAKER_02

I love when you say that. Can you let him love you for no good reason?

SPEAKER_00

How have you let him do that?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I I I it's it's very difficult because we live in a performative culture, in a performative space where we have to earn or deserve or pay back everything, including the love of God, which of course is just ridiculous on its surface. You half a second thought, you realize there's no way I can deserve this or earn this or pay back. But that regular practice of whether you do it on a Sabbath day or whether you do it, and by Sabbath I don't mean necessarily the Saturday or a Sunday, but one day in seven where you just let God love you without performance and um are anchored in his love for you that then uh can work its way out in in your love for others and your love for yourself. Yeah. Um so it's it's those kinds of practices that um that that create the space within which now the Holy Spirit can seep into the fabric and start to do the work of transformation. The disciplines themselves are not the point. All they do, all these practices do is get you into the flow of what the Holy Spirit alone can do. He's the only one who can transform your mind. But the goal is that we begin to have the mind of Christ. Yeah. Just think about that for a we will be able to think about things shaped from the inside out as Jesus would were He thinking about those things.

SPEAKER_00

I want this so bad. Me too.

SPEAKER_02

Me too.

SPEAKER_00

Because I I mean, this morning I'm waking up thinking about things that Jesus is not thinking about.

SPEAKER_05

Yes. Or thinking about things in a way that he was just not thinking about.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, wow, wow.

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, I'm so convicted by what you're sharing. I I I think it's interesting that you're talking about. Well, I one thing you've taught me with spiritual practices, I always liken it to learning the fundamentals of basketball. Um, and yes, the next one, I'm a huge Jalen fan. I'm just gonna say it again. King of New Year's Christian? Shout out, yeah, he is, and Jalen, let's go.

SPEAKER_02

Um he watches, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I'm gonna send it to him. All right, so I do have a connection to him, but anyways, um I don't really have a connection to him. I lied. Um I'm just a wishful thing. I'm manifesting. Manifesting. I cut the new ways. Okay, so Jesus, yeah, now someone's gonna call it out. I'm not being serious for the love. Learn sarcasm. Um G Jesus had a sense of humor. Um uh like basketball, because when I learned how to play basketball, I learned free throws, I learned what was out of bounds, I learned how to do a chess pass, a bounce pass, I learned what was in and what was out, what was a three-pointer, what was a you know, the three-second rule for being, you know, um You can't travel with the ball. You can't travel. But to be good at basketball, that's really good.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

It's not the goal of basketball is to not travel. The goal of basketball is not to like know the boundaries, it's to know it naturally so that you can play the game.

SPEAKER_04

Right.

SPEAKER_00

So reading scripture, prayer, retreat, sabbath, fasting, those are all fundamentals so that you can play the game. Right. So you can go like so the spirit of God can lead you on this wild adventure called your life with Jesus, where you in the process of playing are more and more transformed into Christ-likeness, where we wake up.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and you'll be as surprised as anybody else.

unknown

Man.

SPEAKER_00

So that illustration works?

SPEAKER_05

Yes.

SPEAKER_03

That was great.

SPEAKER_05

Yes. Did I get it? Or you can use or you can use playing an instrument, or you can use dance, or you can use anything that requires systematic practices over time to develop muscle memory. Yeah, there you go. Back to that again. There it is. So that when the call comes, you're able to perform without thinking about it.

SPEAKER_00

Perform the kazoo without having to worry about it. Yeah. Because that was the instrument of muscle memory.

SPEAKER_05

I mean, you think about this, Jesus. It worked. Jesus was able to forgive naked on a cross without thinking about it.

SPEAKER_01

Okay, go there real quick. Well, readell this because we've done this before.

SPEAKER_05

I mean, at the end of the day, this is what he wants for us. This is why he says, you need to learn you be so good that you can love your enemies without having to do your spiritual, you've become the kind of person who can love your enemies. He didn't have to for to for him to not forgive would have been as unnatural as forgiving might still be for us.

SPEAKER_00

Right? He but he was the son of God. Yes. So he was able to do that.

SPEAKER_05

Yes. But principally because as a human being, he practiced solitude and silence, he memorized huge chunks of scripture, he went on retreat regularly, he listened to the voice from the heavens as the definer of identity as opposed to the voice of the crowd. All of the things that he taught us that we can actually do, because everything he did that we see happening, he did in the power of the Spirit, not because he was the Son of God.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_00

So he learned how to forgive.

SPEAKER_05

Luke 2 52. He increased in wisdom and stature and favor with God and man.

SPEAKER_00

So because I remember it was such a defining talk that you shared, I think it was your spiritual formation or uh disciplines class that you said that what you just shared, that Jesus on the cross, as he's being nailed to the cross, says, Father, forgive them. Yes. And we have the potential to grow and become the kind of person that when we are being nailed to the cross, that forgive exactly like Jesus without having to think about it. Yes. That our muscle memory is to extend. It flows naturally.

SPEAKER_05

And you think about that when it comes to lust, to the objectification of a person, or you think about that with anger in our current culture where outrage de jure is how we think to get things done. Yeah. And Jesus says, you don't get to treat anybody with contempt. You can't tell somebody, you can't regard somebody as a fool if you're going to be my disciple. Really?

SPEAKER_00

But I feel like there's a form of Christianity that says we should do this and broadcast it loud right now. There are so many Christians that are telling me I should be outraged by the way the world is operating and voting. And I should protest that because it's my God-given right in this country. But are you saying that I should look like Jesus in this country? That's sarcasm.

SPEAKER_05

Someone's going to be like Except my answer was not sarcasm. No, that's exactly it. Because that he says your primary metaphors are salt and light. Be absorbed into the culture, preserve it, work for its good, be a sign of covenant, and then show people how to live, not tell them, show them. Light is kind of a passive force that creates a difference. And it's a strategy for making disciples. Go into all the world. And as you're going, make friends for me. Here's how I want you to do it. I want you to baptize them, soak them, immerse them, saturate them in the name, the character, the personality, the temperament of the Father, Son, and Spirit, which, unless we're not attending, is love. Then, he says, you can teach people how to live the way I've taught you how to live.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, so you just took the most familiar passage outside of John 3.16, Matthew chapter 28, and you framed it through its meaning. Yeah. So can just let's go a little bit.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and this is classic Dallas Willard, right? Yes. Divine conspiracy and various other places. But Jesus in that was not giving us a kind of mission statement beyond, you know, okay, now go and do this, figure out how to do it. He was telling us how to do it. Make disciples for me, make apprentices, make students, make people who are notice not converts, not believers, not people who have prayed the prayer, attenders, but people who are willing to follow me because they have fallen in love with me. Because they've fallen in love with the me that you represent. Because you're the only Jesus that people ever see. So do they fall in love with the Jesus you represent? Wow. No in such a way.

SPEAKER_00

They're exhausted by him. They're tired, they're forced into a mission that they don't fully understand. And it and the mission isn't Jesus' mission. It's made in some you know or organization's idea of what that's supposed to look like. Right. So we get to the point where five years of doing that, then we're burnt out and we deconstruct our faith because we never knew the real Jesus. Because the Jesus I was introduced to is one who's angry and upset at everyone that looks angry and upset at the enemies that have been created by this institution. Right. And the mission of discipleship is not a loving transformation into Christ-likeness. It is to believe the right information, to behave differently, and then do that for others.

SPEAKER_05

And the behave differently is actually optional.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. Well you just got to believe because we're going to go somewhere else.

SPEAKER_05

Right. Who I sleep with or how I spend my money or how I manage my anger, any of that stuff. You can get around to that eventually. What really matters is do you tick the box on belief that Jesus is the Son of God? And I think we should believe that, because it's true. But every demon in hell believes.

SPEAKER_01

Yes.

SPEAKER_05

Paul James says. So have we begun to follow him? Have we begun to learn, he says, our lives from him? Have we taken his yoke, his teaching, his way of life on us in such a way that we find rest for our souls along the way? This is Matthew 11. So that becomes the primary way then of making disciples. Uh go into all the world. And as you're going as a as a as a flight attendant, as you're going as a short-order cook, as you're going as an architect, as you're going as a CEO, as you're going as a stay-at-home dad or mom, just make friends for me. And here's how I want you to do it.

SPEAKER_03

Make friends for me.

SPEAKER_05

Immerse them in the character, in the name, in the personality of the Trinity, Father, Son, and Spirit. We've turned that into a script to say when we baptize people in the water. And I think we should say that. Of course. But at the end of the day, I don't think Jesus was giving us a script for water baptism. I think he was giving us a strategy, the very one that he used. He was living. That he lived.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

And along the way, I mean, how long did it take those guys to come to the conclusion about who he was?

SPEAKER_00

A long time. A couple of years, maybe. Mark, Mark, it's you know, halfway through the book, they finally realize it. And it's done by divine inspiration. Wow. And then immediately missed as he reveals where he's going. Yeah. But I I want to mean I'm going to anchor here because this is so good. You're, you're you like what what if you haven't, if you're listening to this and you're like, wait, I've never heard this before. Pastor Bill is basically giving you context for the language that's in Matthew 28. Because, you know, to take the Lord's name in vain. That's a commandment, right? Do not take the Lord's name in vain in in Exodus and Deuteronomy. That doesn't mean don't say Jesus Christ. When you stub your toe. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_05

Well, the name is the character, personality, temperament, reputation. So he's God is saying essentially, I've given you my name, Yahweh, in Exodus, right? This is the this is my memorial name. This is the name by which I will be known to the nations as you carry it into the nations.

SPEAKER_00

And how are they carrying it? Through covenant faithfulness. Correct. Through living and faithful relationship to God in the law to the world, so that the nations will see there's one God. Yes, Yahweh.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. So he says, I've given you my name, don't waste it.

SPEAKER_00

So when you take the Lord's name in vain, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_05

You according to our Yeah, according you are you are taking the name and trashing it by giving especially towards the outsider and to the ones who you want to fall in love with the one whose name you carry, right? If you are not carrying it wisely and well, if you are not modeling the identity, character, temperament, personality of the father, son, and spirit, uh now combining the two, then you're carrying it in vain. Why in the world did I ever give you my name? You're not making much of me. You're not bringing glory, you're not helping people fall in love with me. What are you what are you doing?

SPEAKER_00

So when a grandma says, Don't take the Lord's name in vain after you stub your toe and you say Jesus Christ, that's not the essence of the commandment.

SPEAKER_05

No, I I think you shouldn't have a hard time. Don't say it in those kind of contexts.

SPEAKER_00

You can cause not take the Lord's name in vain in that way. But what he what's meant by this is a disposition of how you live. Yes. How you live and express the name of Yahweh in relationship to each other. This is what it is. So if I call myself, let me apply it, if I call myself a believer, a Christian, this is where John goes in 1 John the Epistle. And he says, if you see a brother or sister in need and you have material possessions and don't do anything for them, you don't give, the love of God does not live in you. This is where he takes it. So he's like, this is how we know what love looks like. Christ laid down his life for us, right? You ought to do the same for each other. Well, if you see a brother and sister in need and don't take care of them financially, if you have the capacity to then the love of God does not live inside of you. This is the name, this is where living in the name is. And the I bring that up because I think this is so important. I see Christians using this passage and misusing the heart behind it.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, wow.

SPEAKER_00

They are forcefully making disciples without living the name. Yeah. Without, let me let me use this. The word baptize is to immerse, to submerge, to, you know, change the very nature of a fabric with die. So we're we're we're we're going into the world and changing the very nature of others by living the name of the Trinity, Yahweh, into the world. And that, I mean, so if you're telling where where does what does that look like? It looks like when someone wrongs you, extending forgiveness. It looks like when power from heaven on earth has been given to you, taking off the outer clothes and washing your disciples' disciples' feet, washing people's feet. That's the character of God on display for the world. Wow. Not conquering my enemies in the name of Jesus. Right. Exactly. Boom.

SPEAKER_05

That's well, and and why he says this is how people will know you're my friends. You love one another. Any questions?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, can we get technical? What does that mean?

SPEAKER_03

Bottom line, give me a list of what I love. So you said it last time we were here, right? Where you said making disciples meet means making friends for Jesus. That is the most beautiful way to put it. And it's so simple, so much more simple. It's actually not winning debates, huh?

SPEAKER_00

It's no, and you know it's funny because I've told so many people, like, oh, pastors. I'm like, you should meet with Pastor Bill. Yeah. He walks with pastors. I'll have people go, Well, I'm gonna meet with him. Like, how do I prepare? What do I do? What does that mean? I'm like, he's just gonna walk with you. Just wait. Like, he's just gonna befriend you and help you along the journey. And you don't know. It's like Mr. Miyagi. I just watched all the Karate Kid movies in Bakersfield. Wax on, wax up. You don't know as you're waxing cars that you're learning how to defend yourself from a punch. That's the movie reference you probably haven't seen. You're too young. It's cool. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

I've seen I've known that. Jackie Chan.

SPEAKER_00

Not okay. All right. Oh no. The original karate case. This is a this is a you know a generational.

SPEAKER_05

You were becoming culturally irrelevant. Yeah. Like me.

SPEAKER_00

Go back to the originals, okay? Yeah. Right. Not the remake of the remake. Um, but it it's exactly that. It's that you're living in a way that you don't even realize how much.

SPEAKER_05

Well, and again, like in church, we've just finished well, not just, but a couple of weeks ago we were in the passage at Antioch where they first call people Christians. Christians, yeah. Because their behavior reminded them of Jesus.

SPEAKER_03

I can't. I little can't. Little Christ.

SPEAKER_00

Yep. Yeah. Or they call it the way. Yeah, people of the way. And I love that because the way the Roman Church saw Christianity. Sorry, the way the Roman Empire saw Christianity was not as a religion. They saw them as a philosophy. And back then, philosophies were dangerous to the Roman Empire. Religions were not dangerous. You see, the Roman Empire conquered the known world at the time, and they were fine with religions. You just add Caesar onto your wide variety of gods that you worship, and you're fine. That's that's fine. Religion is how you control empires. Philosophies changed the way people behaved. Right. And so Christianity was different. And I think it was Tim Keller that says in in the ancient times, um uh uh in the ancient world, uh, pagans gave their body to everyone and their money to no one, but Christians gave their body to no one and their money to everyone. There was a changed behavior in the primary way they functioned in society, and that is what Christianity is after. Yeah. A change in how we think and how we act and interact with the world around us that people will know that we're Christians, not because we have a little cross, you know, in our little email signature, but because the cross is marked in our hearts. Yes. And we walk around living in response to the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ in our relationships to each other. Yeah. For the sake of the world, let me just add that. It's for the sake of the world, for the sake of others. This transformation is not so that you heal just your anxiety, right? It's that your anxiety no longer rules you so that you can live and interact with others in a way that extends that freedom and peace to others.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah.

unknown

So beautiful.

SPEAKER_00

So it's not just self-focus.

SPEAKER_05

It's that's that's how you immerse them in the character of the father. Wow. And then the other half of it isn't the important piece. Then you can teach them to obey how to live the way I've taught you how to live, which is not teach them to believe the right things, but teach them the patterns and practices of life that flow out of believing the right things.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

And it is interesting that it says teach teaching them to obey everything I've commanded you. And if you just want to make Matthew the context for that, we're talking Sermon on the Mount. We're talking lots of parables, so much teaching. So good luck with that.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. Yeah. But it's a lifetime of practicing. Okay, what is our curriculum for learning how to not treat people with contempt? What is our curriculum for learning how not to be angry? Not not how we need to get angry, because anger signals the boundary violation. But we can't be angry as our primary way of orienting to other people. Of course. What is our curriculum for not reducing people to fools? What is our curriculum? Uh which part?

SPEAKER_03

Uh reducing people to fools.

SPEAKER_05

Fools is a technical term in the Bible. It's the person who believes in his heart that there is no God. So when I say of a person they're a fool, I'm essentially saying they are outside redemption. They are outside of capacity. They have they have chosen their fate. And Jesus says you don't you don't get to do that. Wow. You don't get to reduce people to objects, even religious objects. You you you need to treat even the person with whom you disagree most vehemently with kindness, generosity, respect, because they too, like you, are part of the image of God.

unknown

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

So good.

SPEAKER_05

And he goes on, I mean, Sermon on the Mount. Then he starts to really meddle with sexuality, with integrity, with character on the edges.

SPEAKER_00

How about the next episode? We just jump into that. I feel like we should just take that and go on the next episode because because this was a spontaneous, we were gonna talk about something else, but this turned into this. And I these are my favorite.

SPEAKER_03

These are my fa this is one of my favorite episodes just because it was so it was very easy.

SPEAKER_00

When we record these, we don't always know how it's gonna go. And sometimes obviously Bill is bringing the the the content today and the last several episodes, so it's a lot easier for me to just sit here and ask questions. But sometimes moments like these happen where like the flow of conversation turns into like what I have experienced for you know 20-something years of you getting these gold nuggets out of here. So um let's end today with this one. Will you want to pray for us, Pastor Bill? Sure. And then we'll close out.

SPEAKER_05

We just sit for a moment, oh Lord, in the silence and let that be our prayer. Letting our words be few. Praying the longing, the desire of our hearts that we might be conform to your likeness for the sake of the world. Amen.

SPEAKER_03

Thank you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_00

All right, thanks for joining us this week. We'll see you guys next week.