Why Most People Struggle to Pray — and What Actually Helps

The Lord's Prayer is not a prayer you pray — it is a school you attend. Every line is a classroom teaching you something about who God is, who you are, and what you actually need. This episode walks through the full framework of the Lord's Prayer alongside a practical theology of prayer for anyone who has ever wanted to pray more but did not know where to start.

In this episode:

• Our Father in heaven — why the opening two words reframe everything about how you approach God
• Hallowed be your name — what it means to treat God as holy before you ask for anything
• Your kingdom come, your will be done — praying in alignment rather than negotiation
• Give us today our daily bread — why Jesus taught us to ask for today's needs and not tomorrow's
• Forgive us our debts as we forgive — the uncomfortable condition built into the prayer
• Lead us not into temptation — what this reveals about our own vulnerability
• The six windows of prayer and how to find which one connects you most deeply to God

SPONSORS & SUPPORT

This series is brought to you with the support of the New International Version (NIV) — the Bible translation we use when reading, studying, and preaching. With more than 650 million copies distributed worldwide, the NIV is the most widely read Bible translation in contemporary English, delivering the very best combination of accuracy, readability, and clarity. It is true to God's Word and true to the reader.

📖 NIV Lectio Bible: Rediscover a contemplative method of reading Scripture with a seamless, minimalistic design. https://bibl.es/NIVLectioBible

 📖 NIV Jesus Bible: Encounter the living Jesus throughout all of Scripture. https://bibl.es/NIVJesusBible

 📖 Find an NIV Bible that's right for you! https://www.thenivbible.com/niv-bibles/

We are also supported by Logos Bible Software — the tool all three of us use when studying Scripture. Logos isn't just a Bible app, it is your whole study desk, your library, and your study partner in one place. Start your free trial and check out the Bible Study Pdcst bundles at https://logos.com/biblestudypdcst

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This podcast is a nonprofit. If you would like to support the work we are doing here, you can give at https://commissionedcollective.org/

Hosted by:

• Pastor Darren Rouanzoin — https://www.instagram.com/darrenr
• Angela Halili — https://www.instagram.com/angelahalili
• Pastor Bill Dogterom — https://www.instagram.com/bdogterom

#BibleStudy #Prayer #ChristianPodcast #Faith #Jesus #BibleStudyPodcast #LordsPrayer

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hey friends, thanks for joining us at the Bible Study Podcast. I want to let you know that we are a nonprofit and we have some partners that are supporting our work here on this podcast. And one of those partners is NIV, the New International Version, a Bible translation that I've been using as a pastor for the last 18 years. I love the translation for its readability, for its credibility. And if you research Bible translations, what stands out is the committee that's responsible for the translation process for NIV in particular. It is extraordinary the work they do to keep and preserve the integrity of the translation. But they also have sent me lots of resources, and NIV is connected to Zondervan and other HarperCollins. But I want to share two specific products that I love. First is the Lectio Bible. This is the NIV translation with Zondervin. And this Bible doesn't have chapter and verses. It reads like a book. So it's designed to be read the way it was originally written, where you're being formed by scripture, not just informed by information. And the other one is this new one that I've been diving into. It's called the Jesus Bible. And what I love about this Bible, if you're looking for one, this Bible has uh study principles in there, but it shows you throughout the entire scripture how this, the whole Bible, is pointing to Jesus. So if you go to Genesis, you'll see the ways that Genesis points to the story of Jesus. You'll look at Exodus, you'll see how Exodus points to the story of Jesus. And I love it that this will help you see clearly that this the Bible is one continuous story and it's leading us to the person of Christ. I want to say thank you, NIV, for for helping us out on this podcast, but check out their website, the links below. Um, all right, let's get into it with the Bible study podcast. Because I know we did it in the first, but we're supposed to pretend like it's been a couple of weeks.

SPEAKER_03 1:52

Yeah, okay.

SPEAKER_01 1:52

So much has changed since so much has changed since two years. Oh well, welcome back to Bible Study Podcast. I'm Darren.

SPEAKER_03 2:02

Hi, I'm Ange.

SPEAKER_01 2:03

I'm Bill. Um, well, a lot has changed in the last several weeks since we've been.

SPEAKER_03 2:08

So many things have changed. What's new, Pastor Bill?

SPEAKER_00 2:12

Nothing. Absolutely nothing has changed since the last time we talked about this.

SPEAKER_03 2:18

You know, Pastor Bill, you know what I've been thinking about a lot, and it's given me a lot of just peace in my heart. You told me that, because when I said a few episodes ago, whenever it was, that even through like my darkest time, I still had a lot of joy. So what does that say about the state of my heart? You said, Well, I think the state of your heart isn't as bad as me is.

SPEAKER_06 2:36

Yes. Wow.

SPEAKER_03 2:38

You didn't think that was the case, you thought it was my coping mechanism. Oh, okay. But I hang on to what you said yesterday. Because I, yeah. And I've I've every time I've experienced joy since then, I'm like, oh, good, good. Signs of health. I love it.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

Yeah, because it joy has that function, right? It's it's the low gear that just keeps us moving through the sludge of life. That's probably, I think mostly the joy that Jesus experienced. Totally. Not the I mean, clearly he was and is capable of the highest heights, but uh just getting through the day joy is probably more needed.

SPEAKER_03 3:23

Oh, yeah. Do you have a lot of joy?

SPEAKER_00 3:26

I I think that probably that that granny gear, I used to call it, right? Where back in the day when you had uh gear shift, it was just put the car in gear and just let it pull you through the stuff. I think most of my life is that.

SPEAKER_06 3:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:45

Because I don't get too excited about too many things, I don't get too down about too many things, it just kind of motor on through the person. See, I don't have that. I know you.

SPEAKER_03 3:56

I'm a big extreme person. Yeah, you know you too.

SPEAKER_01 4:01

I'm trying to find a quote. I have a quote from Sunday from Jurgen Moltmann. I know you'll love him. The joy of faith is not a joy that forgets suffering. Wow. Right. It is a joy that sees suffering through the eyes of the promised future. It is the presence of the future in the midst of the present pain. So good.

SPEAKER_03 4:23

Who wrote that? You did?

SPEAKER_01 4:25

No, I was a German theologian arrested in World War II. I think so, yeah. As a German soldier and met Jesus in the camp as a POW and became a theologian. I'm pretty sure that's the truth. Yeah, I could be wrong. Yeah, I could have just made it up. Yeah, yeah. Well, and if that's the case, awkward. I have a mother that says awkward conversations. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 4:50

Do you experience a lot of joy?

SPEAKER_01 4:52

I do, yeah. I'm I'm a high, high, low, low person, but I also have been someone who's got an incredible amount of finding joy and not just happiness, but truly like bubbled up with joy. Um, I think from my mom. Like I think she she exposed me to uh a life of hardship and sacrifice done in nothing but joy. Yeah. And care, I mean, truly remarkable woman of God who I mean, gosh, so many stories. But I would wake up to her singing downstairs. I got you know, joy, joy, joy down in my heart. Where down like she that was her legit. And so I just was filled with the opportunity of experiencing someone living that. So yeah.

unknown 5:37

So precious.

SPEAKER_01 5:38

But it is good. That is a good thing. Um, we're gonna dive into something today.

SPEAKER_03 5:42

Not joy.

SPEAKER_01 5:44

Not joy, but we should give an update. Is there any update you have?

SPEAKER_03 5:47

Just joyful today.

SPEAKER_01 5:49

Today you get good. Bill, what what else? What else? No, nothing.

SPEAKER_03 5:53

Okay, everyday joyful.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

I got nothing.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

You got nothing. There's no stories from your life. You're remodel, you're you're doing a remodel.

SPEAKER_00 6:00

We are in the middle of remodeling our kitchen and another area of the house.

SPEAKER_03 6:05

Who's designing it? Who's designing?

SPEAKER_00 6:08

Uh guy architect down in Orange County.

SPEAKER_03 6:12

Oh, cool. I thought maybe you were.

SPEAKER_00 6:14

No. No. Actually, my wife, Judy, is really, really good at how space works. Yeah. So she's designing it and kind of told the architect what she wanted, and he kind of put it together in a way that wouldn't fall down.

SPEAKER_03 6:27

Oh, it's amazing. Can I tell you guys something, actually? You're gonna die. Listen to this, Pastor Bill. We I was in Vermont and the stars are like insane. I've never seen a shooting star before. Me and all my friends were outside, we're watching the stars. I say in my head, I say, Lord, I never ask you for any. That's not true. I say, Lord, I never ask you for signs. I never ask you to like show me something. If you're really, I know you're real, but if you're here, if you're real, I go, please show me a shooting star before I even finish talking. Yeah. Shooting star across the sky. Pastor Bill, what do you think about that?

SPEAKER_00 7:07

I think shooting stars occur and your prayer coincided with it.

SPEAKER_01 7:11

So would you have faith if it didn't happen?

SPEAKER_03 7:13

100%. I have faith every day when the things I want to happen.

SPEAKER_01 7:18

It depends on how you want to live.

SPEAKER_03 7:21

I feel like you guys just tell me Santa Claus isn't realistic.

SPEAKER_00 7:28

I think the challenge is, right? If you have faith to stand in the reality in which you have a God who loves you that much to be able to do that, that could very easily have been a direct response to that.

SPEAKER_06 7:37

Totally.

SPEAKER_00 7:38

On the other hand, if you have faith to stand in the reality of a God who just does shooting stars because he thinks they're cool, then that's part of it too.

SPEAKER_03 7:48

That's so cool that there are things that God thinks are cool.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Yeah. Well, look at, I mean, just the wonder of creation is just astonishing.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:56

Yeah. He really loves basketball too.

SPEAKER_03 7:59

He loves Jalen Bronson or whatever. Let's go, Nick's. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

It was weeks ago.

SPEAKER_04 8:04

It was months ago at this point. I don't know why you're still talking about it. Imagine.

SPEAKER_03 8:11

Nixon 4, Nixon 5? Nixon 5. Jesus. Jesus, we love you, Jesus. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 8:16

We're almost at the end of the World Cup now. Yeah, at this point we are.

SPEAKER_03 8:20

You know, my Albania, where I'm from, it isn't in the World Cup. Isn't that sad?

SPEAKER_01 8:24

Oh, that's a bummer. But USA is, and so far, they're crushing it right now.

SPEAKER_03 8:29

USA? I didn't even know the US had a like.

SPEAKER_01 8:34

Okay, really, right now? No, I know that they play, but they're not like they haven't, they haven't done the men's team hasn't done well in the past.

SPEAKER_03 8:44

Oh.

SPEAKER_01 8:44

But right now, where it stands when we're recording this, they're crushing it. They're doing very well. He's gone. Three games in.

SPEAKER_03 8:51

So that's not true.

SPEAKER_00 8:53

I think it's two, right? Yeah. Yeah, you know. So crushing it might be a little bit of a you know what?

SPEAKER_01 8:59

It's the best they've ever done so far. That's true.

SPEAKER_00 9:02

That's true. Compared to all of the other times, they're crushing it.

SPEAKER_01 9:06

Hey, don't you know crush my hopes right now. Sorry. I want to see.

SPEAKER_03 9:09

Is basketball your favorite?

SPEAKER_00 9:11

I don't have a favorite sport. I've never been an athlete. He's from Canada.

SPEAKER_01 9:15

Is curling your favorite sport?

SPEAKER_00 9:17

Curling. Canadian curling.

SPEAKER_03 9:19

Of course you're from Canada.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Sorry. Hockey.

SPEAKER_01 9:22

Ice hockey is your favorite sport.

SPEAKER_00 9:23

I don't have a favorite sport.

SPEAKER_01 9:25

Badminton. Come on. It's pickleball. You are retired. You should start playing pickleball.

SPEAKER_04 9:29

Pick up pickleball. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 9:31

Wow. Should we do garden pickleball?

SPEAKER_01 9:34

Pickleball tournament at Garden Church. Let's go.

SPEAKER_03 9:36

We have to have teams, and it has to be not on Sabbath because it's a competition.

SPEAKER_01 9:40

We should do a staff tournament. That's what we'll do.

SPEAKER_00 9:43

But you're too competitive.

SPEAKER_01 9:44

So am I. Is that a bad thing? I mean, John and John and Peter. John and Peter, you know.

SPEAKER_00 9:51

Yeah, look how that turned out.

SPEAKER_01 9:52

Both of them died on unfortunate. But which one won? Peter got there first. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 9:59

But Peter died first. So Peter was saying he won.

SPEAKER_03 10:02

Oh shoot.

SPEAKER_01 10:03

Awkward conversations. Awkward conversations.

SPEAKER_03 10:06

Okay, one last question. Who would you say you're most like in the Bible?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Who is what? Who would you make this question that you asked? I love this question. Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_03 10:14

Who would you say you're most like in the Bible? You can't say the donkey because Darren already did that one.

SPEAKER_00 10:20

Do you? Yeah. I would say Thomas. I knew it.

SPEAKER_03 10:25

Why?

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Because he's Eeyore.

SPEAKER_00 10:28

Yeah, I think he's the Eeyore disciple. I think he's the one that stays when it doesn't work, when the wheels have fallen off, uh when all he has is let's go die with him. Uh that's that and he just I think we don't, I mean, we don't get enough. He's only three times, and he's always asking awkward questions. Yeah. Um he has this melancholic way of approaching things. Uh so I think he would be, he would that would I resonate with him a lot. Yeah. So good.

SPEAKER_01 11:05

What did you say yours was?

SPEAKER_03 11:06

Uh Peter.

SPEAKER_00 11:06

See, listen to her.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Got there first and probably died first. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:11

Who would you be? I was a donkey. You were oh right, all right. That was right. I was Balaam's talk. All right, you were. That was a great answer. I'm just the yep, the talking donkey. Honestly, so um, Bill, last last episode we had a spontaneous conversation that I loved. And I thought we we said we would pick up where we were ending. And I've heard you preach the Sermon on the Mount I mean at least four times, maybe five times, including the time of Vanguard. I would love for us to jump in and frame what you were framing in regards to how this how this sermon structures life and how we live. And so I have scriptures here. So if you want to use this, you can and walk through it, or you can just jump in.

SPEAKER_00 12:00

Yeah, we can jump in.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Okay, let's go.

SPEAKER_00 12:03

And I I think I should say that most of our underst my understanding, and I think by extension than yours has been shaped by uh Willard and that approach in divine conspiracy and other places, but I think it bears the weight of what Jesus is after there.

SPEAKER_01 12:20

So there's a uh philosopher, author, amazing mentor of yours. He spoke at a church one time in 2011. I remember that was especially. We had Dallas Willard is his name. Um, and he what one of the books I would say is probably top five most influential books for me when it comes to Christian faith, is The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard. It reframed the ministry of Jesus, in I in my opinion, and the message of Jesus, where I grew up primarily thinking that the message of Jesus was believe in him so that you can go to heaven when you die. What you might call the gospel of salvation, um, only to discover that that's not actually in the scriptures. That is a systematic theology that's been approached through reductionist theology. Yes, you can go to heaven when you die, but that's not what Jesus was trying to do. He wasn't trying to get you into heaven, he was trying to bring heaven to earth, specifically the phrase the kingdom. He was announcing the arrival of God's kingdom. And that that really was this awakening moment when I read that book and like then went to scriptures, and I see Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, Acts really talk about the kingdom of God everywhere, and this whole concept that God's reign and rule and realm are available to us here and now through relationship to Jesus, that the way we were intended to live in the first place in the Garden of Eden, a life that's marked by wholeness and freedom and joy and peace and right relationship with God, ourself, uh identity is anchored in who we really are because of Jesus, the forgiveness of sins, the power and indwelling of the Holy Spirit, all of that is made possible through Jesus' arrival, announcement of the kingdom, living out that kingdom, death and resurrection. That's the message that we have access to that now. And what Dallas Willard does is he walks through that theology in divine conspiracy and he he kind of reframes. And for many Christians, the Sermon on the Mount as what it looks like now to live in view of that kingdom reality. How do we live as citizens of the kingdom? Would you say that's a good idea?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

That's a that's yeah, I think exactly. Because otherwise the sermon becomes this okay, when we get there, somewhere down the line, yes, then this is kind of what it's gonna look like. Whereas Jesus was inviting, I think inviting us into that as the current you can begin to live this way now.

SPEAKER_01 14:52

Yes, and and so that's the framework. So I'm gonna just start. He begins with the Beatitudes. Can you just summarize? Because I think that this is probably the most controversial assumption that Dallas Willard has, where I've heard it taught a thousand different ways. I've read lots of different scriptures, and you can argue it, it's fine. But he begins with um, blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. And he goes on with these blesseds, these the those who mourn, those who are meek, those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, the merciful. Those are not conditions of blessedness. That's according to the case. What do you see?

SPEAKER_00 15:28

Well, what it it so to understand what he's doing there, this is the first sermon that Jesus preaches of five in the Gospel of Matthew. So he's as a Jewish reflecting Jewish follower of Jesus, he is he is posturing, positioning Jesus as the new Moses writing the five books, right? So this is the first one, and Jesus will, as we get into it, do this. You have heard it said, quoting from then Moses, but I say reestablishing his supremacy, right? So the question is if the kingdom comes, who's it for? Who who who gets in? Who for whom is the kingdom good news? And part of what I think Willard argues, and and is that the Beatitudes say the kingdom is good for the people who uh that you wouldn't think are normally recipients of good news.

SPEAKER_05 16:26

Right, right.

SPEAKER_01 16:27

The people who have access to the good news are the ones you don't think would ever have access to based on the conditions or the framework you've been given by the law in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_00 16:37

That's right. They they they are clearly not the blessed.

SPEAKER_01 16:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:41

So people who are poor in spirit, people who are heartbroken, people who are we have modernized that to suggest there's a um a spiritual hunger, and it could include that. But in first century, the people who were poor in spirit are likely to be those who are maybe depressed, those who have suffered loss, those who are are marginalized, those who have been left out with the trash. And Jesus says, no, they the kingdom's available to them too.

SPEAKER_01 17:13

I also have heard uh I think he says it, those that don't have a spiritual bone in their body. Right. Those who don't like are naive to the spiritual realities of what we're what we're talking about, they have access. They're blessed in this kingdom. Yeah. And he goes on, like, we see this as oh, okay, uh, those who mourn, like heartbreak is not something you think that's not that's not a condition you're moving towards. Like, and that's I think that's the posture, like we what we've created is like, oh, we should become people who mourn. Right. And that's not what Jesus is doing, Jesus is announcing something that is present already.

SPEAKER_00 17:49

Even if you are heartbroken with grief, you are still eligible. And especially because Matthew's audience, they have suffered catastrophic loss because of the following of Jesus. Yeah, and he's saying, That's not proof that you got it wrong. This is this is what I told you was going to happen. So if you grieve, you will be comforted.

SPEAKER_01 18:16

So he he sets up this uh this real and we we don't have to spend, we could spend literally the whole episode on the first blessed. But he frames this as not as conditions of blessing, but as an announcement. Yeah. The kingdom of first of all, kingdom of God is first an announcement and second an invitation. It's an announcement. This is reality, and the invitation is if you s if you welcome in this kingdom, then there's gonna be a way forward. And and I love like the next section, uh, he talks about you are salt of the earth, you are the light of the world. And and then he goes on and he says, Do not think that I've come to abolish the law of the prophets. I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them. And he goes on to talk about practicing the kingdom of God, putting it into practice. And verse 20 says, For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will not certainly enter the kingdom of heaven. So he says, Guess what? The common, the the way to get in, the barrier of entry is way down here. Right. Those who are suffering, those don't have a spiritual bone in their body, those who are persecuted, welcome you're into the kingdom. But for all those listening, and if you thought I was gonna get a get rid of the law, no, no, no, no. To live in the kingdom requires a kind of righteousness that is beyond what you could imagine.

SPEAKER_00 19:37

Yeah. And the invitation then to be transformative presences in the world as citizens of the kingdom, because we have the overlap now. We have the kingdom of this earth and the kingdom of God existing in parallel, and you can choose which of the two kingdoms is your primary residency, right? You can live into the kingdom now, and I need you to do that because while you're in the kingdom of earth, you need to be salt and light. You need to be holy so that you can be useful.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 20:11

Uh salt being the mark of preservation, yeah, uh, end of covenant renewal, light on a city on a hill being in a in a in a culture where night travel was dangerous, the city on the hill was a place of refuge and safety. I want you to be that, and then a lamp on the lamppost illuminating the house, modeling by your behavior, because he says it's then by your good deeds that people will glorify your father. So the idea of behavior flowing out of character again, we talked about that last time, will uh bring the kingdom to bear in people's lives in real time.

SPEAKER_01 21:00

And and then so this is the the the progression of the sermon. And then I wanna I want you to walk through the next sections. Can we just keep doing that in this episode? Is this all right? Do you have any questions?

SPEAKER_05 21:12

No.

SPEAKER_01 21:12

All right. He goes on, and now he's gonna start reinterpreting the law, right?

SPEAKER_00 21:18

He he says Well, can I or he's probably gonna what he's really I think trying to do is say this is what was there all along and you guys figured out a way to do an end run around it. Uh you you reduced the law to a system of rules that you then figured out how to violate while still saying you're keeping them.

SPEAKER_03 21:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 21:40

And you've missed the whole point of what they're for.

SPEAKER_01 21:42

So like if the law was here at the center, they built a fence around it. Yeah. So they couldn't.

SPEAKER_00 21:49

Or or worse, don't kill. Cool. But hate? I can hate. I can hate. I can hate. And call this as well. You missed the point.

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:59

That the The the not kill thing was the externalization of hate. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:05

Is the law just the Ten Commandments? No. Given in Exodus?

SPEAKER_01 22:10

The six hundred and thirteen commandments in the Old Testament.

SPEAKER_03 22:13

In Deuteronomy's.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

In Exodus to Deuteronomy.

SPEAKER_03 22:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:18

Yeah, but when he refers to Torah, the law, it's it's less about the rules and more about the way of life that the rules are intended to frame.

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Right, totally.

SPEAKER_01 22:29

Hey friends, thank you for joining us at Bible Study Podcast. I want to let you know that we have two friends that have sponsored us. Uh, one of those is Logos Bible Study app. They are an incredible resource for you. If you go to logos.com slash Bible study P D C S T, you'll see a bunch of resources available for you. There, we have a 60-day free trial along with other resources. But if you go there and download that, um, you will have access to lots of tools like word studies, commentaries, lots of different Bible translations. We're so excited to partner with them. Um, this is one of the app that I've used for over 20 years, and I've had a lot of guests on the show. Um, and they've all been using this app. So I encourage you to download that and get the free trial started today. So, so why don't you just map this out? Because you have a framework for this that's really beautiful. Walk me through what he's doing with each of these things, getting to the heart of the law and how it functions. Because what we do is we can read this and go, oh yeah, like I'm gonna live the Sermon on the Mount. And I and it's just directional, one directional thing with God. But if you follow this, it's it's all connected to how we love each other. Right, all connected to the the dynamic of the law was intended to be that that worshiping God was never disconnected from the way we treated each other. That's very clear in the Old Testament and the New Testament.

SPEAKER_00 23:48

Well, and the salt light metaphors at the beginning make that clear. Salt has to be absorbed into a prevailing culture to be useful. Light has to shine, don't put it under a bushel. You can't hide a city on a hill. So here's how, I think he's suggesting, you will be salt and light. Here's how your deeds will glorify your father. If you're going to be salt and light, you don't get to hate people. You've heard it said, don't kill. But I say if if you hate, you've already committed murder. So back the truck up and become the kinds of people who don't hate, who then he goes on, who don't treat people with contempt, who don't regard people as fools. All of those are ways of distancing ourselves in often self-righteous judgment of another, giving us permission to marginalize, to dismiss. And Jesus says, if you're gonna be salt and light, you can't, you don't get to do that anymore. That's not going to be helpful for the kingdoms coming. Uh, even and especially when you do it in Jesus' name, that's not gonna be helpful.

SPEAKER_01 25:03

So he he talks about settling matters and then he jumps into this, so he moves from murder in the subtext to adultery. Right. He says, You shall not commit adultery, but I tell you, anyone that looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with hurt in his heart. If your right eye causes you to stumble, gouge it out and throw it away. It's better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. And if your right eye causes you to stumble, cut it out, throw it away. It's better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

SPEAKER_00 25:34

Yikes.

SPEAKER_01 25:35

Tell me more. Tell me more.

SPEAKER_00 25:37

Yeah, well, what he's after there was, you know, and he goes on and teaches on divorce in a few verses later, uh, where women had essentially in that culture become property and uh uh were objectified in ways uh that our culture is good at as well, reduced to objects who exist for um uh the fulfillment of satisfaction and uh sexual satisfaction. And he's saying, he's not saying looks on a woman and lusts, he's saying looks on a woman to lust. Intentional. There's an intentional focus. Jesus is aware that we're going to be attracted to people, that we're gonna have a pulse of even sexual attraction to women and men um who are attractive to us. He's not concerned. What we do after that, it's not the first look that anticipates uh uh a draw. Right. It's what do you do? Do you reduce that person now from their personhood? Do you turn them into an object who exists for your pleasure? Because if you do, you're not gonna be helpful in redeeming the culture. You're not gonna be salt, you're not gonna be light, you're not gonna model a new way, you're gonna drift into the same kind of behavior, even if they never know it. You have slimed another person. You have reduced them, and by reducing them in this way, you have you have turned a whole cultural space into into something that it was not intended.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

What do you mean reduce people? So when someone when somebody has an intent to lust and they choose to lust and they're looking at somebody, how does that reduce them?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

It it reduces them by treating them as less than the uh image of God. I mean, you made the case that this is all about relationships. When when I distance a person in my anger or my dismissal of them with contempt, when I distance a person by by lusting after them, I have reduced them to a um a cipher, to a an object that is not reflective of the image of God. And whether they ever know it or not, their way of being has been reduced in my conscience, my consciousness.

SPEAKER_01 28:08

Let me take one step back because I'm I'm processing what you're saying, and I've obviously I'm acting like I haven't heard of it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I love this where the teaching's going. But before we jump in further, I guess the question I want to ask is why on earth would you follow the teachings of Jesus? Because this seems hard.

SPEAKER_00 28:30

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:30

It's so much easier for me to be angry.

SPEAKER_00 28:32

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 28:33

Like it's so much easier to like call that person an idiot when they do something wrong. Why would somebody acknowledge that this is the way? This because somebody do this?

SPEAKER_00 28:45

Well, how's that working out for you? Uh not great.

unknown 28:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:49

That's why. So so Jesus really gets life right. Okay, go, yeah, go there. I mean, it's back to the ten words again, right? The so-called Ten Commandments that invite us into a certain way of being that that produces the kind of culture we say we want. We want a culture in which women and men feel completely safe and not subject to violation sexually or any other way, right? So write this down. Don't murder, yeah. Don't lie, don't steal stuff that belongs to other people. Don't, don't, don't be doing that. And Jesus is extrapolating from that because he said, you have figured out how to reduce people without actually murdering them. Yeah. But your contempt of them is a form of murder. You're you've figured out how to reduce a woman, primarily in that that culture, but not just women now in our culture, to an object without actually going to commit adultery. So we think about how pornography, for example, uh in in throughout history, and particularly we're seeing it in our cultural space, is is a reduction of personhood in whatever form it it comes. And it whether it it it shapes it shapes how the person who has indulged in that treats women or men as as as objects. They I mean you can do the statistics on it. A person who's engaged in pornography will their relationships will get sexualized much faster. The way their marriages work is damaged by the way they've understood sexuality and on and on.

SPEAKER_01 30:40

I mean, we have neuroscience that shows pornography use and addiction sh reshapes the brain industry. And it's as as addictive as like intense drugs. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:50

So when when so back to your larger question, why? Why? Because we don't want marriages that are great. We don't want relationships we need to work together in community, women and men. And if our primary orientation to persons of the opposite sex is their sexuality, not their personhood, we have lost the game before we've even started it. So gross.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

And and this is this is an epidemic in the church, in the world as a whole. So so to answer the question, what you're saying is when Jesus lays out this teaching, which is the new Torah, the Ten Commandments, you know, this is his state of the church, the state of the union, the state of the kingdom of God. This is about human flourishing. This is about becoming the kind of person that breathes in the air of the kingdom as you live in every day.

SPEAKER_00 31:39

This is what it looks like when God's in charge.

SPEAKER_01 31:41

This is what it looks like when God's in charge. So how we function as people in the kingdom looks like this. This is his um his idealized future for your life is that you become the kind of person that's trained in appropriate anger. Yes. You be you become the kind of person that it never reduces people to uh subjects, objects of sexual pleasure or whatever it is. Uh who it goes on to reframe contextual issues like who uh don't divorce outside of reasons that would ruin um the concept of a man and a woman becoming one flesh.

SPEAKER_00 32:22

Well, and that that one particularly is challenging because, again, in the first century, women had no power. So rather than commit adultery, a person would just divorce their wife and marry somebody else. They would put her out with the trash. It was fairly simple and straightforward.

SPEAKER_01 32:40

In in the context century. And they had no penalty.

SPEAKER_03 32:49

And they couldn't get married again, right? They couldn't. They couldn't get married. But he could.

SPEAKER_00 32:52

Yes. And Jesus is saying when you do that, you commit adultery and you cause her to commit adultery. So you are doubly damned by your getting around the law.

SPEAKER_06 33:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 33:04

You've you've fulfilled uh, you've ticked the box, but you've missed the point.

SPEAKER_01 33:08

Yeah, because they the way they got around it was giving them a certificate of divorce. That's right. Um, that was like, oh, that's the humanized side. Well, and now I can do whatever I want. He's like, no, you're you're actually committing adultery. Right. And then he talks about don't let your your oaths, he's like, uh, all you need to say is yes and no. What's that about?

SPEAKER_00 33:28

Integrity. Be the kind of person who says what they mean, means what they say, and then stops talking because there's nothing further to say. I don't need people to understand me. I don't need people to agree with me.

SPEAKER_05 33:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 33:39

I don't need people to um uh uh rat to get my rationale. I need to be a person who's who who uh can live with such integrity that like a handshake is as good as a bond. As a signature.

SPEAKER_01 33:55

I was talking to Ezra a couple, like maybe a year and a half ago, and he was saying, a kid in my class, he goes to homeschool academy two days a week. Every time he says something to me, he says, I swear on my mom, what does he mean? He was asking me what this meant. And I was like, Well, he I'm like, and then I just said, Do you trust this person? And he's like, No, every time he says that, I don't believe him. I'm like, so he's using language in a way to overinflate, manipulate, try to control, manipulate, overinflate or exaggerate what he's saying in order to get you to do what he wants, right? Which is at this point was you give him this treat and he'll bring one tomorrow, which he never did.

SPEAKER_05 34:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 34:37

But this is what what Jesus is getting at. In the kingdom of God, we don't need to exaggerate, we don't need to overinflate, we don't need to promise, we just say yes or no, and it means something. And let me just say to everyone listening, because we live in a time where our words are very cheap because we say yes and no and we don't hold to commitments, right? And we live in the maybe generation invitation, like that option on the RSVP, yes, no, maybe. We live with the maybe because we're FOMO. We're we're we want to keep our options open, or we just don't follow through. And I think it's really important, like when we say yes, we mean it.

SPEAKER_04 35:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 35:09

It's one of the things I love about you is you were like, hey, let's get together, and you're like, okay, I can meet up Tuesday at this time, Wednesday at this time, Thursday at this time, and you're gonna show up. I don't ever have to question whether or not you're gonna be at the coffee shop or the restaurant because you've shown that reality.

SPEAKER_00 35:22

Yeah. And I and I think, I mean, here we live in a culture in which like the FOMO, you know, the struggle is real, where just what if something better comes along? And whether it's in our marriages or whether it's in our job performance or whether it's in just normal social interaction, something always better will come along. Always. So who are you gonna be? Are you gonna be faithful or are you going to blow around with the wind, becoming the kind of person that nobody can trust to walk their dog across the street?

SPEAKER_01 35:56

That's right.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

And Jesus says the kingdom is of God when it comes will be comprised of people with rock solid integrity. You can take their word to the bank.

SPEAKER_01 36:06

Yes and no, and that's enough. Well, it's funny, you just said this, and I'm thinking now about I posted something on Substack and it went nuts. It was like the most of it, it was like a tweet of some kind on a note on Substack. And I just said, I feel like um one of the most important disciplines today is staying. And I'm like, stay in the marriage, stay in the church, stay, you know. And now there was a massive reaction. People were like, well, what if I'm abused and church hurt? And I'm like, I'm not saying stay in abuse. I'm not saying stay in a toxic environment. Why does everything have to be nuanced? But I am saying to a culture that's constantly looking for the next way out, the next diet, the next minister, the next conference, the next church that came into town with the better worship. Like everyone's obsessed with the next thing. And I I love like, you know, the Benedictine monks that one of the four vows they make is stability, which is basically stay. Yeah, you stay with the people that are there, you stay with the monastic group that you're in. The that's what you have, and you don't move on because that's part of the discipline. You stay. And I think that's kind of lost today. There's no real commitment for people. And that's a that's like a lost real beauty of the kingdom.

SPEAKER_00 37:18

Where and well, because we attach staying to everything going well.

SPEAKER_06 37:27

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 37:28

And when it doesn't go well, when somebody disappoints us or whatever, then we're we're out of here. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Jude and I are coming up on well, we just passed 49 years.

SPEAKER_03 37:39

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 37:40

And how do you stay married for 49 years? You don't. You stay married a day at a time. Wow. So you you just keep showing up. And has it all been wonderful? Well, certainly not for her. But there have been times when it's it would have been easier, probably, for one or the other of us to say, I'm cashing in my chips here.

SPEAKER_06 38:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:01

But we made a commitment.

SPEAKER_06 38:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 38:03

And it's the same thing in church or whatever. I I there are probably very good reasons why God might cause a pastor or a person to leave one community and go to another. Yeah. But I, boy, I'll tell you, there's something about working out relationships rather than just slamming the door. And notice how the structure begins, you know, if we deal with anger first, that takes a lot of the steam out of the rest of why do we lie? Why do we commit adultery? How much of sexuality is not about sex at all, but it's about power.

SPEAKER_05 38:38

Explain that.

SPEAKER_00 38:38

And it's about, you know, repressed anger, right? Well, let's deal with anger.

SPEAKER_06 38:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 38:45

And then we can deal with the and then we can and then we can now, oh, where's this going? I want you to become, he says, the kinds of people who can be taken advantage of without loss to your core self.

SPEAKER_03 39:03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 39:03

Are you kidding me?

SPEAKER_03 39:04

Wait.

SPEAKER_01 39:05

You're saying that if someone sees me for my shirt, I'm gonna give them my coat, I'm gonna be taken advantage of and give more?

SPEAKER_00 39:12

Yeah. You or at least that is within the range of options of response. He's not saying, I don't think giving us a new law saying you have to do this every single time, but if you never can do it because you're so insecure, if you're so afraid, then you haven't learned to live with freedom. Right? If you can't carry a pack a second mile because you're the Roman requirement was that the Roman soldier could compel an ordinary citizen to carry their battle pack a mile. And Jesus says, why stop at a mile? You have it within you to go to second mile.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

That's when the kingdom is but there is a s there is a dynamic. There is a dynamic. The turning of the cheek, contextually, there's a dynamic that's being discovered. Very much so that flips, you know, the kingdom power. Yeah. Because if okay, so explain this. If I was if I were to hit you.

SPEAKER_00 40:08

Well, he says uh on the right cheek. So the only way you can hit somebody on the right cheek is with the back of the left hand, yeah, or with and with with the left hand, rather. Back of the right hand or the left. Both of those are less about physical assault and more about insult. Yeah, yeah. So it's a shaming attack, if you will. And Jesus is the kind of person that says, and by the way, notice he did this. This isn't hypothetical for him. He gets slapped. This this is this is what happened to him. Yeah. And he says, I want you to become the kinds of people who can absorb the insult without taking it personally, yeah. In such a way that you have to respond in kind.

SPEAKER_06 40:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 40:53

You can turn the other cheek. You can you can invite not maybe not always, not ever.

SPEAKER_05 41:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:01

It has to, um maybe we need to come to a place where we say we're drawing a boundary here, but if you can never do that, yeah, then you've not become useful. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 41:14

What's the case when you turn the other cheek in the social dynamic that is no longer an insult? It's uh uh like I'm I'm trying to remember the context, but if I were to backhand you and I would be forced to now use my other hand because you turn the other cheek or do an open-faced that slap that has to do with the power dynamic that he's he's putting in.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Everything that has shifted in that moment. It's the same thing with the pack. Who's in charge the first mile? Yeah, and how insulting.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Now it's you. Yeah, now the kingdom is gone. Subversion, a subversion taking place.

SPEAKER_00 41:47

Very deliberate subversion of political power.

SPEAKER_01 41:50

So this sermon's helping you flourish. He's walking through what it means to be uh living in the kingdom of God, deal with anger, deal with lust, walking through your commitments, your yes is yes, your integrity, eye for an eye. We are people who do not retaliate. We are people that respond in love, becoming the kind of person that reflects what our heavenly father is like. Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect. What does that mean?

SPEAKER_00 42:14

I think what it means is that God, well, he says it. He doesn't show partiality. He the rain falls on the good and the bad. Uh and so I want you to treat people who mistreat you with kindness, dignity, respect because that's who you have become. That's how God treats you. He doesn't treat you the way you deserve. So if he's your father, I want you to become the kinds of people who can treat people out of who you are, formed into the likeness of the Father, not out of how they've treated you or out of who they are.

SPEAKER_01 42:49

When I read Love your enemies. But when I read be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father is perfect, I think of a checklist of perfection. No. What does it mean?

SPEAKER_00 42:58

Complete. Be be whole, be um you I think the not unbiased, uh, this idea of the larger invitation.

SPEAKER_01 43:09

Keep talking up. I'm gonna look it up. I'm literally gonna go to the Lagos Bible study app. And I'm gonna go there so fast. Watch how fast this is. I just opened it. I'm going to Matthew. Matthew chapter 4.

SPEAKER_03 43:24

I wish we could show it on the screen.

SPEAKER_01 43:25

I know, verse 48. Be perfect. I'm holding this down. You know what's crazy, Bill? In class, I I took research methods with Gary Cameron Hoggett, right? Jerry Cameron. Jerry Cameron. Jerry. And I spent a lot of money going to that, learning how to go to the library to do what this does with the butt. I literally kick. Okay, the word is telios mature telos in Greek. Perfect. Can you tell me more about that word or do you want me to read it? Go ahead, read it. All right, so now that I'm here, I'm Going to a Bible word study, and there's literally hundreds of definitions. But the Greek word for perfect or mature is full grown adult expert, complete, without spot spot, without blemish. Um, and I love I love what um this one, uh, the concise Greek English dictionary says it's the whole full effect, successful results, full grown mature, more perfect than ever before, having reached its final end. The invitation, I feel like that's a great conclusion to that section of scripture because now he's going to transition into uh you're giving to the need, needy in prayer. So that is reframing moral engagement.

SPEAKER_00 44:44

Back to what you let us off with. How do you treat people? Well, you treat people the way God does, out of who he is, out of his character, not depending. Do you think God is kinder than you are?

SPEAKER_01 44:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:57

So do you more forgiving?

SPEAKER_01 44:59

Do you think this is possible? Because this is probably my wife and I talk about this all the time. Like, how do people experience transformation? Because having walked in the church for so long as a pastor, walked with people, teaching the Bible over and over again and reading this, and I've taught through the Sermon Amount, you and I have taught through it at the garnet at least three times. Right? And I am here now. I'm stuck on be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly father perfect is perfect. I'm like, gosh darn it, I'm not using the Lord's name in vain. Um, how do you change? Like, how is that even possible?

SPEAKER_00 45:36

That's why Jesus begins by saying, Follow me.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

What does that mean, Bill?

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Learn your life from me. Learn how to live your life as as I would live it if I were you.

SPEAKER_01 45:46

So, as a single podcaster slash influencer, world preacher, as a local pastor with two kids and a wife, 19 years, celebrated 19 years, let's go. Congratulations by the grace of God. Um, how how do we follow Jesus? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:02

So, what did Jesus do? This is back where we were with spiritual practices. What are the things that Jesus did that we can currently do so that we can become the kinds of persons who can do what Jesus did that we can't yet do?

SPEAKER_01 46:16

I I understand that you're saying let's go play basketball. I get it, I get it. The fundamentals learn the fundamentals to play the basketball game. Okay, I got it.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

Now, so for example, how did Jesus learn how to be angry?

SPEAKER_01 46:30

Probably carpentry.

SPEAKER_00 46:32

I would think that that probably was a part of it. But for me, solitude and silence, because I was an angry dad who was raised by an angry dad. You were check, check, tell me. You don't believe it. And and you, you, you, you know, anxious parents make anxious kids all of all of the things. So so I started battling anger when I was 16 to no effect. You know, little snappy rubber bands or count to 10 or whatever. It just generated more time to get angry. Well, uh, because what at the root of anger was my insecurity and fear and inadequacy and all of those things. None of that was dealt with. And when I lost my temper, I felt bad, I felt embarrassed, I felt ashamed, but then just I mean, it was just this toxic circle until sitting actually with Willard and thinking through how this works and realizing that a lot of my anger, because anger is a gift that signals boundary violation. My problem was I didn't know where my boundaries were. I didn't know who I was.

SPEAKER_01 47:46

Why? Why didn't you know that?

SPEAKER_00 47:49

Because nobody had ever taught me that my identity is found in what the father says about me, not about what my mom or dad or culture or church church or anybody else says. So then going into solitude and silence took me probably three, three and a half years of regular and entering into solitude and silence before I ever got there the first time.

SPEAKER_01 48:17

In solitude and silence, what were you doing?

SPEAKER_00 48:21

Nothing. The goal was to let God love me for no good reason.

SPEAKER_01 48:26

Okay, I heard that. Okay, I get it. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Okay, but you're sitting there for three and a half years in solitude and silence. Are you, and I and I I'm trying to lead you this time. You're doing a really good job at the N Gen Z by the way. I'm trying. Uh, how, because I'm wanting, I want to get to the mechanical piece, which is I know it's the mystery of the presence of God in solitude and silence with you. You're bringing your full self insecure, without boundaries, angry, losing his temper as a father, whatever, as a as a husband, as a pastor. All those things feel very real to me. Me too. So bringing the real person into the presence of God. How did you start experiencing and sorting out where you your boundaries, your the source of the anger? Because you go into that space not knowing I'm insecure. That's why I'm angry. Yeah. You go into the silence and solitude angry and quick-tempered. Yeah, you don't go in going, I'm gonna solve my anger issues through silence and solitude, and I'm gonna discover the source of it comes from my childhood wound where I wasn't given enough whatever, and and now I have to like talk me through that.

SPEAKER_00 49:44

Well, I I wish I had more to give you, but it's it's showing up and praying all of that.

SPEAKER_03 49:50

Praying.

SPEAKER_00 49:51

So this is good. That I'm required because I did it as an assignment first. I did it because I was required to. And it was horrible the first several times. All of the all of the frustrations and sitting here on the I went down to Newport Beach for six hours. You're living in the middle. Uh, and it was just this is the stupidest thing I've ever done. Uh, and of course, Jesus does this regularly. He goes regularly to a lonely place, not a secret place, a lonely place. The lonely place is the place where he celebrates his being utterly and completely alone and before God.

SPEAKER_01 50:36

The Greek word is Eremos. Yes. The deserted places. Yes. I uh okay, so I want to stay here for a second. I have walked with you for 23 years. And then what before I started my sabbatical, I brought this idea we're gonna take the sabbatical. I want to, our church was growing like crazy. I have two little kids, homeschool our kids. My wife and I are leading the church, all this stuff's going on. And I was like, hey, I want to submit to you as the church is growing and the role and influence is increasing. I want to submit my process of spiritual formation to you. And so that required a lot of humility. I would say I'm saying I'm humble that you're welcome for this. No, it required an incredible amount of courage to trust you.

SPEAKER_05 51:24

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 51:24

In a way, because I'm like, I know how to, I'm a lead pastor, I'm doing all this stuff, you know. But I was trying to bring it to you going, I don't know myself well enough.

SPEAKER_05 51:32

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 51:33

So you were saying start earlier, giving up responsibilities, um, teach, you need to stop teaching now. Like it was like, I here's here was my plan. And you're like, no, we're gonna, we're gonna start it in October. You're your thing's gonna, your sabbatical starts in December, the end. You're gonna start in October. And I was like, oh, but I'll never forget, because you know, the last two years have been hard. There's been some of the hardest things I've had to walk with, um, walk through. And there was a moment, and I'm bringing this all up because I have discovered this because of you. And um I want to help people get there. There was a moment where I was bringing to you the problems, and you just said, you don't pray to the problems, you pray. So you're angry. Don't pray the anger away. Pray anger. Well, don't pray the heartbreak away. Pray the heartbreak. And and I was so frustrated because I'm like, what kind of like wax on, wax off are you talking about? I don't know what it means. Because you said actually, I think the problem is your prayer life.

unknown 52:42

Wow.

SPEAKER_04 52:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:43

And I was like, what do you mean the problem is my prayer life? And it was very much me trying to solve the problems that I had in prayer as you understood them, as versus bringing them without judgment to the father in prayer.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Who receives them without judgment.

SPEAKER_01 52:58

And that has changed my whole life.

SPEAKER_00 53:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:01

Because what was prayer was frustrating. I was bringing, and he can handle your frustrations, but I was bringing I need solutions to him.

SPEAKER_04 53:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Not I'm hurting.

SPEAKER_04 53:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:12

And I'm really sad. I'm really tired. I'm angry. I brought my own self.

unknown 53:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 53:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:18

And it was in that space over the last two years where I have changed.

SPEAKER_04 53:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

And I am, I'm still angry. I'm I'm less angry. I'm less triggered. I'm less heartbroken. I'm less depressed. Those things have been met in the solitude.

SPEAKER_00 53:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:33

In the space created by being full of people.

SPEAKER_00 53:35

But this is what happens when love creates the space within which we can be present. That's what we can do.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

Can you explain that?

SPEAKER_00 53:43

Yeah. So so love, the character, the nature of God, right? Solitude and silence is entry into that space that love creates. Then so when I say letting God love you for no good reason, that's that's what is happening. You you are not going with performance, you're not going with apologetic, you're not going to problem solve, you're not going to, with an agenda, bless my this or that or the other. You're just going to let God hold you in his care and love you.

SPEAKER_03 54:14

It's so hard.

SPEAKER_00 54:15

It is very hard because we don't like being loved for no good reason.

SPEAKER_01 54:20

We're trained to receive love outside of attachment. To earn it. We don't even receive it very well. Sorry, yeah. We're trained to earn it, to prove it, to be validated, to exercise.

SPEAKER_00 54:34

Um that's why it took me three and a half years. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 54:39

And me, I'm like, no, no, I don't have three and a half years. I I got like two weeks before I can't take it anymore. No. I need God to expedite this for us.

SPEAKER_01 54:48

We want to microwave our journey.

SPEAKER_00 54:50

Yeah, and it just won't happen. That's that's back where we were before talking about the three mile an hour God. You he and the and the reason for that is because to do it quickly would be to crush us, would be to break us. And yes, he wants to shape us.

SPEAKER_01 55:09

Well, and okay, so going back to this idea of transformation and what Jesus is offering, I think what's hard is we have the wrong image of Jesus in our head and heart. I think we want the life coach Jesus, you know, the Jesus that's like, hey, um I want to come to you to solve these problems. So just give me some steps to solve these issues. But he wants to be Lord. Okay, yeah, you know, which requires you submitting and surrendering. Yeah. Or we have a version of Jesus where he's just an accessory, like we just add him on to our life here and there. We're already busy. We just when it works, it we take them off or put them on. And I think the Jesus of scripture is he's offering us his kingdom, which means he's a king. Lord, it means he's he's he's he's the king. And we want to follow him as like a guide, a cool spiritual guru in our context. But to get the kind of transformation that's being offered requires to see him clearly as and notice how brilliant he is.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

When he describes this sermon on the mount, there's not a single person. I shouldn't say that, that's too strong. But by far the majority are people are saying, I'd like to live in a world like that. I'd like to live in a world in which hate is not our primary reaction to people who are different than us. I would like to live in a world where it's possible for a woman, for a man to be in mixed company and not be objectified. I'd like to live in a world where you could take people at their word.

unknown 56:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

Yes. But do we want to pay the price of following to become the kinds of people who are the pioneers in that kind of world?

SPEAKER_06 57:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:00

And that's what he's inviting us into. You're the salt of the earth, you're the light of the world. You're you guys are in. You're you don't get in by your qualifications. You put the bar on the on the ground. But now that you're in, like you said, here's how you live. Come on.

SPEAKER_01 57:17

How do you not take that and become religious? How do you not like because there's there's like we're talking about the performative nature? Because I talked about this a couple, well, now it's a couple weeks ago, but I was I feel like so many times I read this and I'm like, I just gotta do more. I'm not doing enough. And that's my personality type, my drive. Like, what what do I do to combat that?

SPEAKER_00 57:40

I think the only thing to combat it is is maybe you're right, but maybe it's not the more. It's the what that is the more. In other words, what more do you need to do? And it's not try harder, strive harder, grip your teeth. It's to sit and grip your it's it it's what if the more is released? What if the more is less? What if the more is six hours of doing nothing but letting God love me?

SPEAKER_01 58:09

Right. I I I love it. The rest of the we don't have enough time to go through it now. That went so fast, but the rest of the Sermon on the Mount goes into the.

SPEAKER_03 58:20

Don't worry, Heather. You're fine. You're fine, you're fine. It's okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:23

Don't even worry.

SPEAKER_03 58:24

You're so fine. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 58:25

The the rest of the Sermon on the Mount continues into this life outward. Now it moves into giving to the needy, prayer, fasting, the what you value, treasures on heaven and earth, living to the place where you can live without worry because of your relationship with God going through all of this. Then it goes into judging others, not using your wisdom as a form of manipulation and control, which is what that is about. How do you get things done? You have a per persistent ask, seek, knock. That's a relational category, kingdom. And and and then he's he's framing this. We'll have to go over this another time. But those the first section is really the anchoring part that we we looked at the chapter five. We'll have to go through the other chapters another time.

SPEAKER_02 59:07

Oh, we'll be back.

SPEAKER_01 59:09

We'll be back.

SPEAKER_02 59:10

We'll be back.

SPEAKER_01 59:11

But this is what I love. I love I love opening up scripture with you and processing your perspective. Because even that intro where when we start with um the kingdom of God and framing it through a lens through which this is an invitation, announcement, and an invitation for everyone to join. But there is an expectation, there is this hopeful expectation that you would have a life that flourishes in this kingdom here and now. And um we can live in that reality or we can not. We can choose to anchor ourselves in the way of Jesus, or we can not. And and I uh we talked about this in a previous episode and I didn't get to share it, but there is this interesting thing in Mark's gospel where he says um he uses like the word disciple or crowd as a literary tool. Where do you find yourself? Yeah, and I think this is a good way to end today because the invitation in the kingdom uh sorry, in the Sermon on the Mount, uh, I keep calling it the Kingdom on the Hill because that's what Dallas Willard would call it. Um the Sermon on the Hill. Um, but anyways, he uh he the word the invitation is to be a disciple. If you're a disciple, then there is an intentionality of you patterning patterning your life after Jesus to become the kind of person that lives this out. Or you're just part of the crowd. And in Mark's gospel, you don't want to be a part of the crowd. No the crowd is the one that says in one moment, Hosanna, and the next moment, crucify him. And I think that's the fickle nature of the crowd. That's the fickle nature of the consumer Christian, the cultural Christian. The invitation today is to become the kind of person that follows Jesus wherever he's led, leading you.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:52

Yeah, I and I I at the same time, I do want to we've done this to ourselves. Yes. We we have created a culture of converts that have no intention of following Jesus and called it evangelism. Jesus didn't say believe in me, he said follow me. And then in following, belief is the only way to make sense of what you're seeing lived out loud that you desperately want.

SPEAKER_06 1:01:22

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:22

When you have fallen in love with him, then following him is the easiest and the hardest thing you'll ever do, but it is the only way to the life you say you want.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:32

This is so powerful. The problem is the church created the Frankenstein. Yeah. Wow. A kind of Christian that never existed in the scriptures.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:41

And we did it with the best possible motives. We want people to go to heaven when they die, even though Jesus with Jesus say this prayer.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:48

But also, one thing I just want to say, because following and believing, the Greek word for belief is very different than the word we have to believe today. Because it the better word would be trust and or it's it's active. It's standing, walking, living in the reality of what you've come to know is true.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:07

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:07

So it's not a passive, like, oh, I, you know, I believe that this is true. Right. Yeah. I agree.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:13

Whoa, that's good. It's not, I agree that this is true. You're actively walking in truth.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:18

Are you walking in the truth that you believe? Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:23

You need to write a book. He does. He needs to write a book.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:26

We're trying. We're trying. Come on. Put it in the chat. Yeah, put it in the comments, guys. Those are good chat comments. Thank you. Thank you, Pastor Bill. Thank you so much, Pastor Bill. Thanks for joining us today. So glad you're you've been with us. Um, we'll see you guys next week.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:41

Love you guys.