Bible Study Podcast

Pastor Michael Koulianos on Revival and What the Church Is Missing Right Now

• Darren Rouanzoin, Angela Halili

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Pastor Michael Koulianos has been in rooms where the Holy Spirit moved in ways that could not be explained, manufactured, or replicated. He has also been in rooms where everything was tried and nothing happened. This episode is a conversation about the difference — what revival actually is, what produces it, and why the church in the West is so hungry for something she has largely stopped making room for.

In this episode:
• The Holy Spirit is a person not a force — and that distinction changes everything
• You can grieve the Holy Spirit — what that means practically and why most of us do it without realizing
• Pastor Michael's personal story — how an encounter with the Holy Spirit redirected the entire trajectory of his life
• What it looks like when the Holy Spirit actually moves vs. when it is manufactured enthusiasm
• Revival is not an event — it is what happens when the people of God return to their first love
• What the church needs to recover right now and what Pastor Michael believes God is stirring
• How to position yourself and your community to make room for the Holy Spirit

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This podcast is a nonprofit. If you would like to support the work we are doing here, you can give at https://commissionedcollective.org/

This series is brought to you with the support of the New International Version (NIV) — the Bible translation we use when reading, studying, and preaching. With more than 650 million copies distributed worldwide, the NIV is the most widely read Bible translation in contemporary English, delivering the very best combination of accuracy, readability, and clarity. It is true to God's Word and true to the reader.

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Hosted by:
• Pastor Darren Rouanzoin — https://www.instagram.com/darrenr
• Angela Halili — https://www.instagram.com/angelahalili
• Pastor Michael Koulianos — https://www.instagram.com/michaelkoulianos/

#BibleStudy #HolySpirit #Revival #ChristianPodcast #Faith #Jesus #BibleStudyPodcast

SPEAKER_05

Hey friends, thanks for joining us at the Bible Study Podcast. I want to let you know that we are a nonprofit and we have some partners that are supporting our work here on this podcast. And one of those partners is NIV, the new international version of Bible translation that I've been using as a pastor for the last 18 years. I love the translation for its readability, for its credibility. And if you research Bible translations, what stands out is the committee that's responsible for the translation process for NIV in particular. It is extraordinary the work they do to keep and preserve the integrity of the translation. But they also have sent me lots of resources, and NIV is connected to Zondervan and other HarperCollins. But I want to share two specific products that I love. First is the Lectio Bible. This is the NIV translation with Zondervan. And this Bible doesn't have chapter and verses, it reads like a book. So it's designed to be read the way it was originally written, where you're being formed by scripture, not just informed by information. And the other one is this new one that I've been diving into. It's called the Jesus Bible. And what I love about this Bible, if you're looking for one, this Bible has uh study principles in there, but it shows you throughout the entire scripture how this, the whole Bible, is pointing to Jesus. So if you go to Genesis, you'll see the ways that Genesis points to the story of Jesus. You'll look at Exodus, you'll see how Exodus points to the story of Jesus. And I love it that this will help you see clearly that this the Bible is one continuous story and it's leading us to the person of Christ. I want to say thank you, NIV, for helping us out on this podcast, but check out their website, the links below. Um, all right, let's get into it with the Bible study podcast this time. I pray that it would be sacred more than just um another podcast that this would be anointed and transforming for us and for those that listen. I pray Jesus, you bless Pastor Michael as he gives his life and his teaching and his heart to us. I pray you would anoint him for this and blessed his time as he's taking a break. I pray that you would be filled up in this time. And uh we just thank you for the grace of uh a life that's been covered by grace and uh just the opportunity to learn. And we love you and pray in Jesus' name. Amen. Amen. Okay, uh hey guys, welcome back to the Bible study podcast. I'm Darren.

SPEAKER_02

I'm Anne.

SPEAKER_05

And we are so excited because we have Pastor Michael Kullianos with us. So uh this is a pastor and a friend. We're so glad that you're joining us for this this season. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01

I love you guys. And I really with you.

SPEAKER_02

Michael, I really want to say anyone who knows me personally knows how much you guess and Jesus' image means to me. I went to Jesus' image for the first time, maybe four years ago. My mom and I had one of the most profound encounters with the Lord the second we walked in. I always tell this story, but we are facing something so challenging. We are praying for a miracle. We walk into Jesus' image. We both felt one of means, we're bawling our eyes out, we're leaping before God. He just like something shifted in the spirit, just being in the atmosphere of the presence of God like that. And wow, maybe 10 minutes after we enter into service, my mom gets a text message that someone we care about deeply was coming out of prison. And that was the thing we were praying for for a long time. So and then even after that, I have been digitally discipled through your teachings and your sermons for years. And so I get to sit here today with my pastor Darren and my uh friend and pastor home away from home, uh Michael, and we're just so grateful. Thank you for everything. Thank you, Angela. Yeah, it's good to be with you.

SPEAKER_05

Well, I want to give a little story of how I met you. Can I do this one? I don't know if you remember this, but I met Pastor Michael through Francis, Francis Chan, our mutual friend. So do you remember? Right. So I would ask Francis, if you don't know, I've been friends with Francis for years. He's been at our church. I think he he started coming in 2017 and helped frame a lot of what we do with the heart house churches and stuff like that. But I would always ask Francis, I was like, hey, who are leaders that you know that are full of integrity and purity, love the Holy Spirit, are people of the word that are leading significant things? And and you know, Francis, he'd be like, I don't know anyone. And then like he would be like, I don't know. And then I think it was uh, it must have been 2023. He's like, You gotta meet Pastor Michael. Like you guys had recently connected and hung out and done things together, and and he's like, Gotta meet Pastor Michael. So he set us up. Do you remember he set us up? I do. He goes, What are you doing like next week? I'm like, uh, I don't know, what are you doing? He's like, Do you want to go golf with Pastor Michael? I'm like, sure. So I had to buy golf stuff. Was it your first time golfing? It was like, I hadn't golfed in like years, like, probably since like freshman year in high school. I had no idea that you were the kind of golfer that you were. I had no context for this, but we went golfing, and all I remember is watching you hit and play maybe two holes, and then I just stopped playing. Do you remember? I just said, I'll drive you around.

SPEAKER_01

I remember you addressed this.

SPEAKER_05

I told you I had to look the part. Anyways, that was the intro. But I did ask you a thousand questions on that. I wrote them down. I have notes still, but we became we became friends, and uh, I'm so grateful for you. I just and not I just want to give context because you lead Jesus' image, you lead uh conferences, podcasts, Jesus school, um, you're getting your master's degree right now. What what what is it in spiritual formation? It's in theology, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

In theology with an emphasis on on formation, and then uh I'll move into my doctoral work on most likely uh John's Gospel.

SPEAKER_05

You're gonna yeah, you're gonna write on the what specifically because you have to get very specialized with doctor.

SPEAKER_01

It'd be uh either Irenaeus' view of John's gospel or one of those first two century fathers, their their vision of John's writing, which is a vision of Jesus from the foot of the cross.

SPEAKER_05

Let's go. I love it. Yeah, so you're a busy, you're a busy guy, and you're you're giving us space. Um, I when I first met you, I asked you about a thousand questions, and I took notes of all those, and I have them. I brought them because I try to learn from leaders. And I I was telling a group of young men yesterday I was discipling, like, hey, stay humble, always stay a learner, and that will give you you know a key into people's lives. And I think that's true of us. Like, I got I I've been connected. I want to share this story, and then we're gonna ask questions and just jump in. And if you want to share, you can. Last year, my son started going through a really hard time, Amos, and you you like called me out of the blue and said, What's going on? And you hadn't you had no context. I was like, I'm going through this really hard time. My boy is suffering with this anxiety, and it wasn't diagnosed. He was waking up 10 times a day. I'm sorry, 10 times a night, um, terrified, night terrors, wouldn't go to school, wouldn't go to church, was just like this thing came out of nowhere. And you prayed for him and you had this really profound prayer, it was significant. But then you sent us, my family, like 12 of these. Um, you prayed over them and their crosses, and I'm gonna get emotional.

SPEAKER_02

Me too.

SPEAKER_05

Um, because it was absolutely a turning point in our life. Because shortly after that, my boy, by the way, he got this and he sleeps with it every night. He puts it in his backpack when he goes to homeschool. We travel, he's got his cross, and he holds to the cross, and he has um scripture next to his dresser, which is right next to his bed, and he he reads kind of those at night. And but this boy has learned how to navigate anxiety with Jesus, and um, and you've helped him like find a way to really cling to the cross. And I just want to thank you for your prayers and your love. So, you know, people know you for different reasons, but what I know you as is uh a friend who's further along in the journey that's helped me navigate church significance and things, um, now navigate quiet time with Jesus in the midst of growing and you know, things, but really how to fight for my my kids. Yeah, and I just want to thank you for that. So thank you.

SPEAKER_01

Thank the Lord.

SPEAKER_04

Thank you, Jesus.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, uh Yeah, I was I mean, I'm honored to send your son a cross. What a privilege to be able to give somebody a cross.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Thank the Lord. And I I it's a privilege to be with you both. I'm I'm really honored to learn from you guys and learn today. And thank you. I'm on vacation and I I I've said no to a lot of invitations out here. Cali Cali is like a second home to us. And two of my children were raised or born here. Wow. I was called to the ministry here. Well, not called here, but this was my first ministry assignment. Pastored here, married here, and uh so I've gotten a lot of calls since we've been on vacation, and I I told Jess I felt like I needed to come to this one. So thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, we're so glad. Yeah, we're blessed to have you. I I don't know. Do you want to jump in with questions? Or do you want me to go? Yeah, you go. Okay. I want to start with that conversation we were just having. Um, I I could go through the story of your miraculous healing. Um, talk about the detours of your life from playing golf, professional golf almost, to step into professional golfer. Professional golfer into pastor evangelist. Well, you went to evangelist into this ministry. We were telling wild stories on the drive up here to LA about you um getting a truck bed that would fold out and you'd preach the gospel in South County off the side. Like I love these stories, like the great, like grinding your teeth as an evangelist in Orange County, like going Laguna Beach, which is wildly non-Christian. Yeah. And you you not being able to find a non-Christian when you were evangelized.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, the only guy I mustered up energy to go preach the gospel to, I went to hand him a track and he handed me one instead.

SPEAKER_02

No way.

SPEAKER_01

You're both there. I went back to the Lord, I said, Lord, I don't think I'm called. I can't even find an unbeliever in Laguna.

SPEAKER_02

Wait, that's so funny.

SPEAKER_01

And I stalked the poor man for two hours. Like, this is the guy. This is the dance who's gonna receive the gospel. And he when he handed me the track, he goes, Son, do you know Jesus?

SPEAKER_05

No way. What kind of tracks were you using back then? I'm just curious. If you don't know what a track is, I was gonna say I think we made our own. You did? Okay.

SPEAKER_01

I I think we made our own. We had a two by two ministry here. I would, I would, I would go out with the teams and we would send people out two by two and call it salt, like salt of the earth. Oh. And we would uh on Saturdays go preach the gospel. Wow so good. And it it was not like it is now. Yeah. The spiritual momentum here uh is really beautiful. But back then, uh for churches like ours, it was it was pretty dry ground. I mean, we were yeah, we were tilling the soil and breaking it open.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, you you provided a soil for what we're experiencing now.

SPEAKER_01

Well, I don't know about that. I know I prayed a lot. You and thousands of people. Yeah, yeah. But but yeah, those were the early days, and I would preach off that truck on during Christmas. Uh in fact, right where we watched the fireworks, I would pull that uh I actually put up a stage uh in Aliso Viejo. And I thought, I gotta preach the gospel somewhere during Christmas. So we we saved up our money, put up this huge stage, believe God, for the audio and the engineer. And I preached the gospel from that stage in the middle of the Aliso Town Center. Somehow we got the permit, and uh before it started, the uh the audio blew. And so I just screamed, screamed the gospel. I don't know if anybody responded.

SPEAKER_02

And were people listening? Were people? Yeah, they actually were. We don't see that anymore, right?

SPEAKER_01

People aren't like they were like I think they were drawn by the worship, yeah, which wasn't that great. Yeah, like vocally, our team was not great. Our musicians were we would just like find musicians from the inland empire or up here in LA and try to piecemeal a team together. And yeah, so those were the early days.

SPEAKER_05

I I love this though, because I I think uh times have changed, but like the thing that God called you to do early on, you were just finding ways to express that to be obedient. Like whether it was passing out tracks, tracks are little cards or like pamphlets that would have provocative statements on the outside. Like I had some that was like that looked like a hundred dollar bill, but it was like a million dollars, and it said million-dollar question, will you go to heaven if you die? And you're supposed to leave it as a tip for terrible, like for uh a server instead of getting a tip. Like, here's a tip like will you go to heaven? Like, and I mean terrible. I say that now because I think there's a better way to approach people. Um, I did it in Huntington. You did it in South County, you know, South County.

SPEAKER_01

Now the kids give those little Jesus figurines.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I have so many in my purse.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I mean, I was at the gym the other day and I next to the dumbbell stores and I was like, what is this? My son Benny was like, Oh, yeah, well, we have Jesus.

SPEAKER_05

My sons have all those, yeah. They collect them, they look for them. Um, I want to I want to talk about the first thing I want to ask you is will you talk to us about the significance of spiritual mothers and spiritual fathers? I think one thing I love about you is uh the way you talk about the spiritual leadership over your life, the way you've submitted um to people throughout your life. One specific story. I love this one. I one of the mentors that you had a spiritual mom is Joy Dawson. Um she passed away a couple years ago, but uh I I found that she it's you you wrote this. She approached you in 2006 at a crusade, and you said she said, God wants us to be friends. Call me. And you credit her for teaching you how to tremble at God's word, how to fear the Lord, how to be free from the fear of man, and how to burn with love for Jesus. And you said plainly in one of your works that if without her, there'd be no Jesus image. Um, could you just talk about that? Because I've watched you honor people in your life that you have different theological belief systems then, but you still honor, and I think this is such a rare characteristic today to see put on display for a person with the kind of influence that you have.

SPEAKER_01

Well, um, yeah, this is a hard one for me to get through. But when I was younger, how old are you guys? You're you're 41. 41, yeah. Andrew you're allowed to say. 25, okay, 25. So certainly when I was Angela's age, and hopefully a little less by the time I got to 40, I had so many reasons as to why the Lord should use me. I kind of had my own highlight reel in my own mind why I would have been a good idea for God to use. Probably pages and pages worth. And to be honest, some of it I'm just really embarrassed of my my thought process. Um not not preferring others as being greater than me, as the scripture tells us to. When you think that way, you actually sign up for more rejection and comparison and wonder why God is using other people or why certain people have access to others and you don't, and the context of it all is why you think you're so wonderful. As you continue to walk with Jesus You become exposed to your own frailty, to your own limitation. You even become afraid of the strong version of you. Um you listen to your own preaching less, for example, because uh like you'll be a s a stickler with what you're preaching. You want it to be good and solid and and I am that.

unknown

I I am that.

SPEAKER_01

Um But when I was young, I if I did like a big event, I'd be like, I couldn't wait to go home and watch myself minister. Now I'm like, oh gosh, that yeah, that guy is something else. So as you walk with Jesus and get older that bio that you've created, that autobi autobiography that you've created and your entire stat sheet is way less impressive to you. And it gets shorter and shorter. And I always say if my bio would have been forty reasons as to why the Lord should use me, now I'm not sure I could fill a paragraph or a statement. So I'm I become I became by God's mercy more confused as to why the Lord would come my way. And I think we hear this language in Paul when he calls himself chief of sinners. Yeah. That isn't an that isn't a statement against uh the new creation in him. It's he's understanding that God came to him in mercy and mercy alone. So when Joy Dawson walks up to you because God wanted that to happen. You spend the rest of your days thanking God for his incredible grace. And to be honest, we should be more confused as to why the Lord would use us as we go. Yeah. I I would not have chosen me. Um and so here's this woman who walks up to me here in the Long Beach theater. Long Beach Auditorium. And my father-in-law was preaching, and she just said, The Lord told me to be your friend. Not to be your mentor, yeah, to be your friend, and she was my mentor. But I'm not sure she was so convinced of her ability to mentor. Yeah. Because none of us, none of us can touch the hearts of people. An old saint told his spiritual father, How can I disciple these people? And his father told him, uh, you cannot. Only the Holy Spirit can. And so Joy came up to me and she said, I I want to be your friend. And I said, You're Joy Dawson. She said, I know, I still want to be your friend. And I remember the first phone call, Jess and I Benny had not been born, Theo was born, who's turned 21 this year. We were living in a little two-bedroom apartment in Aliso Viejo. And I remember when the phone rang. No, no, she said, Here's my number, you call me. So I called her, and I remember when she picked up and I said, Mrs. Dawson, this is Michael, we just met. My last name would have meant nothing to her, and plus it was super long, it's super long. And um I d I didn't know if she'd be able to pronounce it well. So I have that problem. The other day, the other day, one of our team said, Yeah, you would. So one of our team goes, Hey Pastor, um we wanted to put Pastor Michael on one of the Instagram posts, but we weren't able to because your name is too long. I said, Okay, I understand. So she answered the phone. I said, This is Michael. And she said, You can't call me Mrs. Dawson, you have to call me Joy. So I said, Mrs. Dawson, I can't do that. And she said, You have to call me Joy. And that probably took like a year to get there because honor is so entrenched in me. And and I I do think we treat servants of the Lord too casually. And and the most precious ones, they don't live for the titles, but that doesn't mean we cannot see them as God does, yeah. And honor their office. Yeah. You know, leave leave that to them. Yeah. People say, Well, I don't want to deal with somebody in that regard because I don't want them to get prideful. That's on them. Um so Joy took me in and and uh Yeah, she she made me a son and um was so patient with me with all of the junk we all have in us. Um she challenged me, corrected me, gave me verse after verse for let's see, she passed in 2020, so for 15 years. No, for sixteen years. And um she would always tell me the day'll come where you'll wish I was there, why don't you call me more often? I think if I had one regret, it's that yeah I probably didn't call her enough. I I called her a lot, but if I had to do it over. If somebody of that stature gave me access to them, I would have I would have taken advantage of that. And I you think they're never gonna die. Yeah. And and I'm and I'm I'm feeling that right now with with my parents, to be honest with you. Somebody asked me the other day, what can I pray for for you? And I thought, could you pray? Because my parents live two and a half hours from me, and I'm moving them to Orlando. I said, I was I was like, could you could you pray that God would open doors for them to get closer? And uh these are very holy things that culture has dismissed.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And I I don't I I want to live a like the I want to live a real Christian life. You know, I want to take care of my parents, I want to to the best of my ability, walk lowly before people. And Joy taught me so much of that.

SPEAKER_05

If there were uh practical things that you could reflect on for a younger audience listening who are that might have older people in their life that could speak into them the way Joy spoke into you. Like I think you talk about how, well, one thing I've heard you tell stories of what she's done for you, and I've I've been kind of shocked because I was like, wow, you as a leader showing up on these big platforms, Joy watching them saying, Hey, you were off, you need to apologize. Like, she's had the courage to speak truth. How, I mean, how do you position yourself now in a way if you're like I'm thinking of 20s and 30-year-old leaders, how do they position themselves to be in that seat with the the men and women that might have authority over them to like desire that kind of growth and connection? Because I one thing I see is there is the younger generation in general, and this is an overgeneralization, is we've kind of thrown out authority and institution all together, which means by way of um association, we throw out um the elders, like the older people and the elders. Um, we throw out anyone with position, like you spoke about honor, and nowadays that that is a tricky word because we see the toxic side of unhealthy, what what the Bible doesn't consider honor, but what's been confused in certain cultures and in churches as honor culture, which kind of just means no accountability and excuse all the lack of character. That's not what we're talking about. We're talking about the biblical command to honor. Um, can you speak into that? Does that make sense? There's a lot of questions I'm throwing at you.

SPEAKER_01

Um the cross, the the the cross of the Lord Jesus is the calling. It's not the cross is not a way to the calling. That's really good. The cross is the calling. So John sees in his writings the cross as being a throne. Uh we see that when he speaks of none being found worthy to break the seal to open the scroll, and he looks for the sound of a lion, but sees a lamb. That was slaughtered. That was slain. So he's a cruciformed son on the cross. Yeah. And the Bible says that the that Jesus was crucified before the foundation of the world. Yeah. So in the heart of God, this has always been the posture of the son.

SPEAKER_02

If what what is that your car, Angela? No, it's an ice cream truck.

SPEAKER_05

That's a little bit of new video. There's this thing. Yeah, the truck starts coming.

SPEAKER_01

I thought that was your car, but it's your alarm.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah. You want to go check it, Angela?

SPEAKER_01

Your soundtrack.

SPEAKER_04

It's my alarm.

SPEAKER_01

Um, you want me to start in? Yeah, just so the there's never been a moment where the Lord Jesus Himself is not the crucified and risen Lord. Now, in time, of course, of course, he steps into this, but in the heart of God, I'm talking. This is the posture of our Lord. And if this is the posture, this cross-shaped posture of the Lord Himself, then this should define success in the Christian life. And if you don't feel your cross, it's because you're not carrying one. You don't have one on your back. Your cross is tangible. And as I think I told your staff, the cross, as Madame Guyan said, the cross gives me God and then God hands me a cross. So if the cross is not your obsession, the crucified Lord is not your obsession, who even in his risen state still has wounds, and that's why we call him the crucified and risen Lord. If he is not your definition of success and does not define what the Christian life is, then being discipled and mentored and challenged and corrected and encouraged uh will be a greater struggle for you because you will become uh afraid of the discomfort that the cross provides through the life of somebody who's called to walk with you. If I were to think of the core issue that's keeping a generation from walking in what the church has always been historically, which is a faith handed down once and for all through fathers and mothers, through the holy fathers of the church. Um discipleship is about walking with someone and preferring them as being greater than you. And so in every sphere we walk into, we have to know in the moment when when am I in my calling? When am I functioning as a Moses in this moment or a Joshua? And I have to know. Yeah. Wow. Because there's always somebody who carries more grace than you. When I say grace, I don't I mean the the power of the spirit, the energy of the spirit, the capability of the spirit. And so we are actually hardwired as believers in Jesus to prefer others as being better. So I think because our definition of the faith is skewed today, I think our definition of what it looks like to be a disciple is skewed because Jesus Himself is the faith. Therefore, submission and honor, even if I don't like it, uh isn't deemed as necessary because my definition is off. Unfortunately, in revival culture settings, uh a teaching started going around saying that the cross is the front door. Well, if you relegate the cross to a front door, then what's the next room? Is it do Angela, Darren, and Michael just get to do what they want at that point? Right. What defines me yielding to the will of God? The crucifixion. And so the the crucifixion is the is the moment where the sum total of the all attributes of God are on full display. So the crucifixion silences uh every voice and the crucifixion says everything at the same time. So think about that. It silences every other voice and says everything at the same time. So I don't you haven't been to Orlando yet, right? To our place? No, yeah. You've been. So we have that massive crucifix that's life size on the church property. But when you go stand in front of it, it cancels every other thought. Yeah. And says everything at the same time. So my point is, is when a joy corrects me and it hurts, and I need it. I need that friction to introduce me to the cross today. Now, even if joy gets it wrong, it doesn't mean I have to get that wrong.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

Now, I always say honor stops at the cliff of sin. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Good.

SPEAKER_01

Okay. Honor, honor stops at the ledge of sin. So I'm not going to honor somebody into sin. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to honor somebody at the expense of the word of God. I'm not going to honor somebody at the expense of violating my conscience. Yeah. Now, I also have to be able to teach this our, at least in our environment with the hundreds of students we have, what they think is their conscience is usually not. It's oftentimes their opinions. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Wow.

SPEAKER_01

The conscience the father's taught is knit to the presence of the spirit. Yeah. So I'm talking about that. If something violates what I know to be that part of me that communes with the Lord, I'm not following you off that cliff. Yeah. But if somebody tells me to do something that inconveniences me, I'm doing it.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

There's a big difference between the two. If somebody opens the text and shows me where I failed, as hard as it is to hear that, I know I need it. I need it. I need the rub of the tree to soften me. Because there's so much in us that isn't like the Lord. Um, I was talking to a priest the other day. Um, he was a missionary priest to Central Asia and had a powerful healing ministry. Wow. And still does. And a powerful deliverance ministry. And he had been watching Jesus' image for years, and I was blown away by that. And and I'd been praying to meet uh uh an Orthodox priest like this, because I grew up around three of them. And uh so we started talking, and we talked for an hour and a half, literally on this vacation. And I said, You know, how's it going at the church, Pastor or Father? And he said, he said, Oh Michael, uh, parish life is so much harder than it was for me traveling to Central Asia. He said, The sheep I serve, they'll stab me in the back. Wow. He said, and I still have to serve them. He said, I still need to teach the word to them, I still have to to to feed them communion. And then he said something that marked me. He said, I found, I found that I am more like Jesus with a knife in my back than I am with a metal on my chest.

SPEAKER_03

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

And I have to say before the Lord, that has been my experience. Yeah, it's true. That the gentleness that comes through the challenges of the Christian life are gifts. So mothers and fathers are now. I think it's can I I don't know how honest I can be. I think it's a little bizarre how that language has found its way into charismatic revival culture. Like people have like nine mothers and fathers. Interesting. Or they'll be like, they'll sit in a church, yeah, and in the church go, well, I come to this church, but the person like six rows back is my mother. That guy over there who's like, I don't know, he sells watches on the side, he's my father.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Well, the way I grew up, in a traditional context, your spiritual father was the one teaching the word and and breaking breaking the Eucharist and feeding you. Yeah. Or somebody connected to the church like Joy was. Yeah. So I think we need to be really careful because that whole thing has gotten weird and people have misused it. I'm speaking about it from an Eastern sense, yeah. Which is much different. So I love it.

SPEAKER_05

Can I let me just interject one thing? Because I my context, I don't come from a charismatic background. I come from like non-denominational evangelical Christian churches. And I kind of came out of a Southern California mega church, planted our church, and I would say the only context I have is kind of an anti-celebrity, anti-authority, um, non-hierarchical church leadership that I think more than anything is like the pastor's just like a brother. So he's a teacher. There's no there's no authority structure whatsoever, even if he's the lead guy. It's like we we can listen to this guy on YouTube, we can listen to this guy on podcasts, he's he's get feeding me. So it's almost like the context I've experienced is like it's just consumerism of your favorite teacher. Yeah, the idea of spiritual authority doesn't even exist in in the context I come out of. So when I like I don't have the context of spiritual father and mothers, but I've had them. Um, and I've had men and women in my life who have walked with me, who are older, that were pastors and leaders who have just shepherded my soul. And I I wonder how many people listening don't even have that. But I'm wondering like, how do you position yourself? Right.

SPEAKER_01

That's sorry. Yeah, I forgot to answer that.

SPEAKER_05

How do I position myself? Because I'm even I'm, you know, I've talked to you about this. Like as the church has grown significantly, as leadership continues to grow, I'm wanting to the word the Lord's like giving me is submit, find ways to submit your decisions, like your process, because I see the threat to ministry as uh like unlimited decision making. Like people come to me, I'm like, I want to make less decisions. You know, like how do I how do I come under authority?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So first and foremost, it's got to be defined by the cross where you won't have the motive. Okay, good. Yeah. Or the desire. Yeah. You'll do that so that you can say, so and so is pours into me. Yeah. And that happens a lot.

SPEAKER_05

Hey friends, thank you for joining us at Bible Study Podcast. I want to let you know that we have two friends that have sponsored us. Uh, one of those is Logos Bible Study app. They are an incredible resource for you. If you go to logos.com slash Bible study pdcst, you'll see a bunch of resources available for you. There, we have a 60-day free trial along with other resources. But if you go there and download that, um, you will have access to lots of tools like word studies, commentaries, lots of different Bible translations. We're so excited to partner with them. Um, this is one of the app that I've used for over 20 years, and I've had a lot of guests on the show, um, and they've all been using this this app. So I encourage you to download that and get the free trial started today.

SPEAKER_03

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Right. So if Ange takes a young girl under her wing, yes, Angela's. That girl could say, Angela's my mentor. Yeah. Okay. So, and then I would also say on the flip side, the ones who say, Hey, I'm called to be your father and mother, they weird me out too. Yeah. Because the the the the ones you want to trust are the ones who don't believe in their capability. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

You want, you want, when you approach someone and say, Pour into me, is that good? Or should we keep going? Okay. I'm good with it. Yeah. Okay. I'm good. The ones that you want to really mentor you are the ones who are not convinced of their own greatness.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Who don't see uh their their own capabilities as flowing from themselves. That's really important. Yeah. Because in a church context, there is this thing where people who so badly want to be in the ministry will come into a local church without speaking to the spiritual leadership and just start like mentoring people. We've had that happen. Mentoring people in the church without talking to any of the leadership about it, and they kind of create a crowd under themselves. And that ends up fracturing the church. Yeah. Now, okay, so I want to say that the way you position yourself properly is through hunger, through availability, through pliability, through humility. Yeah. You know, like uh Nick Brent, who I love, I've walked with him since he was 20. He's like, hey, um if somebody's gonna pour into me and they're morning person and I'm not, guess what? I just became a morning person.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

And you move, you move, and and your life has become shaped by theirs. Yeah. Not vice versa. Now your life will be impacted by those that that you are pastoring or pouring into. My life's been deeply impacted by the young people in our environment. They they keep my heart burning in a way. So I would say you position through generosity, through taking care of them, through listening to the Holy Spirit about how you can be a blessing to them, especially as they age out. There is a problem right now in the worship space and in the platform ministry of non-denominational expression and evangelical expression. It's that we we tend to move people out of the way once they get to a certain age because they don't look the part.

SPEAKER_02

Wow, just like the rest of the world in Hollywood, crazy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And it's I've actually I actually know somebody uh who went to an event and it's a massive event, and they said we we we usually only let good-looking people up here on the platform. So that's so That is so scary. I don't know if they meant like this person wasn't, but they should be glad that they were allowed on. But the butt that's not a real thing. That's a real thing. In the Christian world, there were thousands of people there. I believe it. So what I what I think a generation is craving is to be led by holy people. Yeah. Whether they have gray hair or no hair, or I mean, is there ever not going to be a need for a darling check? No. Okay. So we need them more than ever.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_05

Um, so value. I've seen that in in your the G the pastor conference I went to. You had like the age, you had the spectrum of leadership. And I believe um like nuns to young leaders and old to, you know, I I think that you put that on display really well. I think that's true. And the way you've honored. I've seen it, I've seen it in your life, the way you've you've honored, and you, I mean, you started a school to raise up the next generation. I've I've heard you talk about that because you have said that, I mean, you've obviously you have a list of people who have poured into you, and we've we've talked about some of those people, but you have a list of people that you pour into who are younger. And I I just think that um with there there's kind of an obsession right now with like spiritual formation in a good way, like people are like rediscovering what's always been there from the beginning, even rabbinic before you know the the gospels, the rabbis were making disciples in the Jewish context, but now the church is kind of re-re coming back to go, yeah, it's not just it's never been hyper grace. There is this, we we put our we put our faith into practice the the spiritual disciplines. We've talked about this here on this podcast. I've seen you embody all of that, but I've seen you like pour into the next generation. One thing I'm I'm just curious, and I'm gonna move uh real quick, is what are you seeing in the Gen Z and now the alpha? What are you seeing in them? Because I've been leading church for 18 years. I'm a millennial, primarily millennial, maybe Gen X, and then now I'm seeing Gen Z. And what I see is very different, but I'm curious what you're seeing and witnessing.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, so at our last pastor's conference, which was just a few weeks back in Orlando, I had my two sons on the on the panel with me, which was so wonderful. And Sophia now is leading worship at my side. Uh, she just led for me in London, and she had no clue she was gonna do it. And the glory of God filled that cathedral. Wow. It was beautiful. So um I had my two boys up there, and I asked them that question What are you guys wanting? And then I told all the pastors, a couple thousand pastors, you need to listen. Listen. Yeah. And they both said, When we walk into church, I thought this was so beautiful. We want to feel really small and we want God to feel really big. Wow.

SPEAKER_03

So good.

SPEAKER_01

In other words, we want everything about our Christian life to express the greatness of God. Yeah, good. And how we are not the point. Yeah. That He is the point. Yeah. I think that's what I'm seeing. So you're seeing this very hopeful return to theology. Yeah. And anytime you see a hopeful return in that, let's just say in that area or other areas, there's always the concern on the back end. Yeah. Right. So there's a hopeful, beautiful return to strong, patristic, ancient theology. And then there's this spirit online that it has learned to monetize disagreement. Yep. And learn to monetize division. And you can actually make a living doing it. That's a problem, right? So that's that's that's the negative side. That is it. Um, I'm super excited about the passion uh and that I'm seeing in them. But then there's a difference between Holy Spirit, birth passion, and excitement.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It so blesses my heart to hear more language around the person of Jesus. Yeah. I've tried to give my whole ministry to that. I've tried to do the best I can with that. Like if I could name our house like that we actually live in after the Lord Jesus, I would uh I I've tried everything we do, I try to put his name on it.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

At the same time, I'm watching the next the the the concern for me is that there's language and and in some cases not enough experience with this person of Jesus. So we've learned to brand things like a new Jesus movement is coming, this is coming, and we put a movement around everything. Yeah, revivals here. Yeah, and they're missing the point. Yeah they're missing the point. So and then I am seeing uh outside my own children, I'm seeing a crop at Jesus image, these young guys and girls emerge who I see a definite grace on. Yeah. And once I see that grace, I start looking for certain characteristics in them consistency, humility, lowliness, hunger. It's those that I'm I'll pour gas on with whatever the Lord has given me. So I'm seeing I'm very hopeful. I'm hopeful, um I'm hopeful in the midst of also having these concerns, but I think that's been with in every age of the church. You know, I don't think the church has ever faced a season where like for example we over the the last three years has been a lot of talk around communion. If we're not careful, and I think it's wonderful, but if we're not careful, we'll try to brand communion.

SPEAKER_05

It's already happening.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and then not well, try to create like a movement around it, or um but not even know what communion is. Uh brand the peripheral aspects, like what comes with it, or let's do another event. And I'm all I'm down. Like my dream would be to see the church united by the millions in one gathering and receive communion with brothers and sisters from from other denominations. That would be my dream. But I think we need to be real careful that we allow the Holy Spirit to purge our motives and not try to brand baptism or communion, or next will be the anointing of oil, or before people, you know, family is precious. Family is sacramental, the entirety of our lives are sacramental. But to say that revival is family, I'm not even sure. Like we use terms without really pondering the sanctity of them. Yeah. And so what ends up happening is you start treating the communion moment in a very haphazard way. Totally. And I wonder if we realize we're handling the body and blood of Jesus. So yeah, those would be my concerns and my encouragement.

SPEAKER_05

I I love hearing that because I have the same, I think you're framing it so well, and your insight is so key because you do have access to a lot of young people in your church. And we have a lot of Gen Z primarily, but we don't have a school right now where there's a lot of things we're working on. I do think it's interesting hearing you say what you just said about the concern. I think the theme. Okay.

unknown

Thank you.

SPEAKER_00

A little pressure washing out there.

SPEAKER_05

Every time. So loud. There's uh one of the things I think what I'm hearing you say is actually like there's like a theme to if I were to narrow it down, it would be just a deeper theology of why and what the Christian faith is. Yeah. Like you go to the biblical context. Like for me, it like goes down to people have been formed by a glimpse of theological insight. Like they read, they might have, they might have watched a TikTok video on communion and now they're obsessed and they're running with it. They're gonna argue about it because they've been influenced by a person online. Like, you know, for me, it's like you that cannot be where you're building your theology. Like this exists, even this podcast exists as a as a resource to those that are in local churches, that are taking studying deeper, that have access to other information. And there just needs to be a digging of the wells, like in a young person's life. I think that's what for me, when I look at Gen Z, I'm like, they have the a lot of potential to repair some of the things that millennials and Gen X have missed in the journey of leadership, which I think what we're building is like that repair. We're trying to make build something better, garden in Jesus' image. And if we could help them have tools to build with passion and deep theological insight, with the sacraments and knowing that you don't build the brand around sacraments. Like this is part of what we call local church expression. Yeah, and and there's a reason why it exists in community, not outside on a website, you know, for a platform experience, but it exists in the embodied community.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and the only way to not have motives in your heart that pollute what is pure is to allow the power of the cross, the denial of self that comes via the person of the spirit, the holy scriptures, and then people in authority over your life to help fend that off of you, you will ultimately make common what is holy. Yeah. That's very that's a very scary place to be. Yeah. And so when I came up, the people that raised me in the faith carried the tangible presence of God on them in their eyes. So they were deep theologically, but they had a proper definition of theology, which is to lead to union with God. Yes. Anything that doesn't lead me there puffs me up. Yes. Wow, wow, wow. Which is dangerous. Yeah. So I came up around true, like saintly people who you get close to and you could feel the power of the Holy Spirit coming off their body. Yeah. Uh, and that's one thing that I'm not seeing as much of in in Gen Z. Yeah. I'm not saying God isn't gonna do it. Yeah, God will ready his bride. I'm seeing it come up in our environment with uh you would know some of them from being there. I don't yeah, maybe you would know just some of the the ones who've come out to Cali to visit. But my kids and some of their crew, they are coming up into that very mystical field in a holy way, Christian mystical theological uh journey in Jesus. And so there's a big difference between that and being able to argue well. Yes, yeah, huge difference.

SPEAKER_02

Okay, you we've talked about you know people loving to disagree. You also mentioned earlier about like um the man that you spoke to that said he sometimes with a knife in his back has to continue to shepherd people. And this could be a question for both of you. People are so opinionated. And like as a pastor, as a leader, this is something I deal with even not as a pastor, um, is that I can get so frustrated with the fact that people can create narratives based off of the impurity that's in their own hearts. And like as a leader, as a pastor, how do you deal with um not having the fear of man and having to kind of justify and defend yourself? And also, yeah, I just and also just like the critical spirit that so many people have towards churches and leaders. And what I see most often is those people who have critical spirits are the ones who don't receive when they're at church. They're the ones who don't get touched during worship and the ones who um don't receive the word. And it's you know that critical spirit. Can we just talk about that?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Um I think I was like that when I was young.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So for me, not to the degree because my parents would have killed me. Yeah. Others would have been like, you're done. But I had such a zeal for purity in the Word of God that if I saw something vere, I would like it would break my heart. Totally. And then from that broken heart, it moved into anger and and then vocalizing behind the scenes, right? We think if we talked behind the scenes, that God can't hear it.

SPEAKER_04

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

So as long as you don't post it today, it's okay. But God can hear it.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Jesse will come to me at times and she'll be like, I just need to vent. And I'll tell her, God hears you right now. She's like, but I'm just speaking to my husband, so she'll go into third person. I'm like, first of all, I'm your husband. You can say I'm just speaking to you. But God can hear you. Yeah. And sometimes they need to get it out.

SPEAKER_00

But there are even boundaries within husband and wife discussion that are still sinful. Yes.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. And I'm not saying I do the same to her. Totally, of course, everybody.

SPEAKER_01

But the scriptures don't just give a free pass to conversations between parents and spouses. There are certain things you should never talk about. Wow. And when you're young and God gives you the desire to see the church more pure, which we should all have, the devil has learned over 6,000 years to trip us up in our overreaction if we don't get tripped on the initial temptation.

SPEAKER_02

Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01

That's good. Does it make sense? Yes. Example. Funds were raised in the 80s and 90s in a very unholy, grieving way in much of the charismatic church. 100%. It was wrong. It twisted and manipulated the scriptures. What we see now in Gen Z is and late millennials is an overcompensation. In the name of purity, they don't give it all. Both are sinful.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so the devil is a master at getting us to be tripped up in our reaction. That's good. So you have to be really careful. The longer you walk with the Lord, the Holy Spirit will talk to you. And because the the most serious tests are the ones you don't know you're taking. Those are the ones typically with massive rewards or implications. My goodness. And so you need the person of the Spirit, the scriptures, or someone in your life to go, hey, like Joy would do that all the time with me. She'd say, Hey, you don't know this right now. But you need to go read this chapter. That's what this is. You're walking through this. Wow. She'd give me chapter and verse. So I just thought it was a bad day. And she's like, no, no, if you get this right, God will impart to you a measure of Himself that nobody will ever be able to steal for eternity. So we have to be really careful in our zeal to not cause us to sin. And then ask ourselves do I have the authority regarding what I'm saying to even move the dial in the midst of my criticism? Because there's a way by which God operates. So you might get a reaction and a result. It doesn't mean it's God's result. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02

100%, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

So if I want God's result, I have to employ God's method.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And so you go through the proper channels, you do it a certain way. But the problem is, is now you can make a living doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Catherine Kuhlman used to say, God keeps the books.

SPEAKER_02

Totally.

SPEAKER_01

So the day will come where the books will be open and the motive of every heart will be audited. Oh man. So the way I the way I get through it is I say, Lord, have mercy on them. I pray for them. Lord, give me compassion. I remember when I was like that. I remember when I felt overlooked.

SPEAKER_02

Totally.

SPEAKER_01

I remember when nobody went. I remember preaching. I told Darren on the way here, I preached in that show, I preached in strip malls all over this area. I preached for women's a glow meetings. I preached in a Marie calendar, which is like a pie shop. Yeah, it's so great. Yeah, like a breakfast cafe. I preached in there. My honorarium was a rhubarb pie.

SPEAKER_02

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_01

I remember feeling God will never use me. So when that's in you, it's mercy and the humble life through other people that saves us from sinful, critical, hard-heartedness. That keeps me, as you said, beautifully, and it is a marker from being able to worship.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

It's typically those people have a real big problem engaging the Lord's presence. That's that's because they're analyzing the room. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right. And would you say that's probably just internal shame and self-judgment that causes criticism?

SPEAKER_01

We typically, as you said, we typically don't see people for the way they are. We see them as we are. Wow. So the scripture says to the pure, all things are pure. So pure people get duped a lot. So if you're a guy, you need a discerning wife. Yeah. I have one. Yeah. Me too. Yeah. As you know, I have one. Oh, yeah. I know you do.

SPEAKER_02

Both of you, Alex and Jess would be the best friends.

SPEAKER_01

They're so similar. Yeah, so Jess will be like, you're blind.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I'm like, no way. They are just the most saints. She's like, no, they're not saints.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. This is so funny. That is so funny. So I'm like that too. To the pure, all things are pure. Yeah. Um we see this in the life of David. I mean, look at the way David handles Absalom.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

That's a really telling moment.

SPEAKER_05

I think, you know, with uh like the criticism thing, like we do live in a world now where you just see a phone and you have a YouTube channel. You have you can you can talk back. Like stepping into like a more public ministry. I've been not doing anything public for 18 years, you know, and then started this and started doing a lot of other things, and it's become more visible, which I think visibility is a liability in the kingdom because now you're getting hit by people you don't know, and it could be robots or it could be people with a a platform where their entire ministry exists to tear other ministries down. 50% of online, it's like I think it's something like I don't know the statue, it's 25 to 50 percent.

SPEAKER_01

So we have divisive robots, yeah.

SPEAKER_05

It's designed for division. But then there's also like a like you said, an entire industry within the Christian world of divisive kind of criticism conversation. And I think social media, I mean we know this for a fact. It keeps like rage and anger is what keeps people addicted to this device. Like that's the algorithm. Um, it's designed to keep you focused on this. And I think as Christians, that is a a warfare that we exist in today, where one, we shouldn't participate in that. I I think I'm like when I look at some of these Christian ministries and I look at Christians posting, I see what they say about you. I don't for me, it's like I don't get, but you what they say about you, I haven't really seen your comments, so uh, but I see because I'm on it. What they say about you, and I'm I'm shocked that these are Christians. Because I grew up and and I was taught like, don't say anything that doesn't build somebody up according to Ephesians. Like, according to the scriptures, like we we use our language because it has it has so much power, we use our words to build up, but there is an entire world where we just tear down, and it feels like that's been normalized, like the normalization of Christians just tearing people down. Yeah, and and this is where where I'm at now is for anyone that's listening, the best critique of the bad is the building of the better. And I think get out, it's like that that Roosevelt quote like be a person in the arena, like be be people who are building the better. Yeah, we should waste no time tearing each other down. Yeah, we should build as much time as possible building the alternative to the thing. So if you're out there and you don't agree with our theology, go build a church that has the better theology. That's my argument. Like stop criticizing what you're doing, what we're doing. Let's just build the better and and see what God does through that versus being this anti, you know, person who's building a monument of critique.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, and I I do think things need to be corrected. I've had to do that twice. Totally, uh, publicly because I had a person in who crossed a line when it came to the proper teaching around the person of the Lord Jesus. Yeah. And our flock had access to this person, and I had given them access to this person by allowing them to come through Jesus' image a few times. Um mostly prior to the church, but I think maybe once or twice to the school. When the this person's doctrine around the person of Jesus was so skewed, I had to take the pulpit. I did a show. I said, How many of you students heard this? Like 90%. When I saw that type of response, I knew they looked up to him. I said, Okay, now I have to shepherd in this regard. And I gave them the word of God and said, This is not true about Jesus. Here's what the scriptures say, here's what the fathers of the church have said, and they appreciated that. But I did it in a way that the students understood that I wanted this person to come to the right conclusion and also find the truth. That's a totally different way of accomplishing that. Yeah. You know what I mean? So uh that's a proper way.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, and that's the shepherding, that's the biblical way, Paul's warning against wolves, like the the uh the overemphasis of like you know, correct doctrine, that Paul has an emphasis of like we gotta preach correct doctrine.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. So we have to have our lines of like no return. Yeah. And I think that's probably one of the things that's keeping the church from uniting even denominationally in a greater measure, is that we haven't defined our non-negotiables, yeah, which should be creedal. Yeah, should be the creed. We should just look at the Nicene Creed and go, we're in. Hey, yeah, this is us. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

But when you start adding, oh, yeah. Then we're when you're adding, you're excluding. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Can I ask you, guys, both of you? So as pastors and leaders, I feel like because some church, every church is different, every pastor is different. Some churches have like a powerful prayer room, some churches have like a great global ministry. Um, and then some pastors, they might be different, but I feel like, are you guys expected to be kind of everything to everyone? And like, what if what if like one pastor's gifting is like Bible teaching, theology? Um, and then another pastor is really gifted in like soul care and like pastoring people relationally. What does that look like? Like, are you expected to be everything to everyone?

SPEAKER_05

No. No. Like I like I've thought a lot about this because, first of all, there's the fivefold ministry in Ephesians for uh apostles, prophets, evangelists shepherd, teachers. There's other giftings and leadership bents, you know, and within the framework of the church, I think the biggest flaw that I pursued as a church planner was to be everything to everyone. Like I had to be pastoral and I had to preach the Bible, and I had to be evangelistic and reach the lost, and I had to be prophetic. I wanted to, and and then there's this whole movement of apostolic leadership. And I was like, oh my gosh, that's what I'm gonna be. And I've shared this on here, like that over obsession with differentiation, just and and then people pleasing destroys leaders and communities. I think the greatest gift is to say, God, like it's to learn, God's given me these gifts. I'm gonna use those gifts. It's amazing. I'm gonna build around my strengths and I'm gonna empower and raise up around my weaknesses. I lack administration. So let's hire administrative administrative gifts because the church is growing. We need great administrators because that when you implement that, you have evangelistic outcome. That's Acts chapter six. Like, you know, uh Peter and the apostles devote themselves to the ministry of prayer and the word, and they hand over in the Greek a ministry of waiting on tables. Wow. Both of them are ministries. There's not one that's less than the other. They just differentiate themselves, they delegate and empower the seven deacons, you know, to carry on a very important task of providing food for the widows. Now, the church as a result increases and multiplies because of the delegation and empowerment of ministry to people who are gifted and qualified for those things. So I think.

SPEAKER_02

Great.

SPEAKER_05

I think one thing I I've thought about this because we have people who have watched and love Jesus' image. And this is what happens in every church. They want to be a little bit more like Jesus' image. And I'm like, I love Jesus' image. That's that's the work of Pastor Michael Coleonis and Jesus in the work that's happening here through the leadership there. What God's doing at Garden is different, it has a different expression. And because of my friendship, there's going to be things that I pull on because Pastor Michael and Jesus Image influences us in the same way that Francis has and various leaders in our church life. But I think God wants each church to look beautiful and expressed differently based on the leadership and the gifting within that local context. Like we need churches that are faithfully serving the 50 people led by the pastor that's leading 50 people, or 200 or 1,000, or 10,000. Like those that that they all need to be expressed based on the unique gifting of their leaders and their leadership in that context.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I I think I probably tried to be everything to everybody. And then you wrestle with your own guilt and your own capacity. And I should have been there. I should have had that conversation with that person. I should have taken more time with this person. I think that flows from a good heart. Um it's just not possible. Totally. It's not possible. And you become more and more comfortable with your calling. At the same time, I think there are certain pillars in every local church that should take place as a life rhythm in the church. Yes. While the expression around those pillars may look different, like, for example, probably the greatest communicator of his generation in the Catholic Church would have been Fulton Sheen. So we're talking about an incredibly gifted evangelist and apologist to the world. Now, while he's officiating the Mass, he is going to follow the liturgical journey and the Mass. He's going to administer the Eucharist. But I promise you his homily felt different than other priests. So that local parish would feel different than the priest down the road. We're talking about it a very specific generational gift in this person. So I think the church is returning to ancient practice, at least you know, the non-ancient traditions are going that way. And I think the ancient traditions have discovered the power of media and teaching the Bible.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

We'll close after this.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

A little tarp out there?

SPEAKER_02

Little tarp. I know it happens once in a while.

SPEAKER_01

What is that? Someone's dragging a cart. Okay. So I I think the the more ancient ancient communities have discovered the power of media and teaching the Bible. So you see you see priests now who've extended their homily time. I know one priest who I think he went from like eight minutes to 30 minutes for his homily, and his church grew to 12,000.

SPEAKER_04

Let's go. Yeah. Let's preach the word at the Catholic Church.

SPEAKER_01

So yeah. So I'm like, I'm like, when I grew up in the Orthodox Church, priests were not on social media. But now they are. Yeah. Yeah. So so I think there's like a move from the Protestant evangelical space into the beauty of the Eucharist and more sacraments. Yeah. Wanting a holy tradition to touch their church in certain ways. Totally. And then you're seeing the more ancient communities who have been filled with scripture, but now making it uh a little more visible through media and stuff. So the point, here's my point, is that while you I think every church expression, when they gather on the Lord's Day, should do certain things, the way that flushes out through the gift set in the clergy or even in the people, there's a grace on each church to live the Christian life, it's gonna look different.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, definitely.

SPEAKER_01

And and and and we have to give as congregations the space to allow our leaders to be committed to the word in prayer and not think that that's minimal.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_01

If if if a my pastor breaks the scriptures open, I should ask myself, how valuable is this?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01

What is what are the scriptures? How valuable are they? And if he feeds me holy communion, I need to ask myself, how valuable is the body blood of Jesus? Not say, uh, he's done an amazing job here, but he didn't shake my hand long enough.

SPEAKER_02

Can we deconnect episode beyond this? I have so many questions because I am a church attendee and I hear what is said, and it's something I'm so passionate about because I'm just like, do you know what pastors carry and go through? You know what I mean? And they also have families. And no, they probably don't have time to get coffee and know every single person that deeply and intimately. Yeah. And then we can also talk about why we raise other leaders, right?

SPEAKER_05

What I'm so let's go. You lead the next one. This is great. Thank you for joining us at the Bible study podcast. Pastor Michael, love you guys. We're so grateful for you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_02

Thank you so much.