Occudocs
We live in a world with endless opportunities, yet choosing the right individual path has never been more challenging. What you choose to do with your work may be the most important decision of your life. Join renowned television producer, Bill Hayes, as he explores the wide range of ways people make a living. Each episode features a refreshingly authentic conversation with a guest who is passionate about what they do. They reveal how they found their path, the challenges they’ve faced, and what their work is really like. From well-known careers to jobs you didn’t know existed, these stories offer practical insight and real inspiration. From their stories, learn what it takes to turn your interests and skills into a career you love.
It's not just about making a living, it's about making a life.
Occudocs
Coach, Philanthropist, and Administrator - Dereck Whittenburg
Use Left/Right to seek, Home/End to jump to start or end. Hold shift to jump forward or backward.
It's hard to come up with a succinct set of titles for Dereck Whittenburg. After playing basketball at one of the best basketball high schools in the country for arguably the best high school coach of all time, he helped NC State win its second national championship. After a brief international career, he went into coaching, had a broadcasting role at ESPN, produced several major documentaries, started a scholarship foundation, and returned to his alma mater to serve as an administrator.
In this episode, you'll learn about Dereck's winding path to where he is today, the importance of finding and listening to great mentors, and why scholarships and education are so important.
For more on Dereck's foundation or to buy his book, visit https://the-dereck-whittenburg-foundation.square.site/
You can also watch his films Survive and Advance through ESPN or Morgan Wootten: Godfather of Basketball through the links on the website.
Hey there. Bill Hayes here, the host of Ocidocs the podcast. And don't forget to watch OcuDocs, the short videos about what people do, because most people don't know what other people do, and they keep wondering what they could, should, and would be. So please join us again for Ocidocs. And tell your friends and subscribe and hit that like button. Let me introduce my good friend and known him quite a long time now, it seems. Derek Wittenberg. Derek, thanks for being here in the Ocudoc studio with us. It's a pleasure to have you. Good seeing you as always.
SPEAKER_00Last time I've seen you, the first time I seen you was on the airport.
SPEAKER_01Oh, we'll have to tell that story. Quick disclaimer. We've known each other a while, and we made a film together, thanks to Derek's persistence, I must say. Derek, uh let me a quick wrap-up of Derek's life, real quickly. Derek was a star basketball player, to put it mildly, uh, and eventually played for the greatest high school basketball coach, high school coach ever, and number one team in the country, and then went to NC State and again played for one of the greatest college coaches ever. And again, won the national championship. Went off, played some Pro Bowl, did a lot of coaching for some different people, and then for himself. Came back to North Carolina and settled back at NC State because it was just too much like home for him, I think. And they love him too much because he did help him win the national championship. But uh came back here, and he and his lovely wife started a foundation to really help people because Derek is going to explain to us how important scholarships are and how important education is, higher education. And if that wasn't enough to do, I mean between there, he did some sports, he did some uh sports casting. Uh so he got in front of the camera a lot because he knows a lot about the game and people love to talk to him, and Derek likes to talk. But um, maybe as much as me. But uh, but also uh he has written a book, which we're gonna learn about, uh, which is really a good book. I'm sorry, Derek, it is a good book, it's a great book. But uh the stories he can tell and the experiences he has, I felt like he is one of my, you know, it's personal with me with Derek. He's one of my favorite. I'll start crying. He's he's really one of my favorite people ever, even though I yell at him and fuss at him, you have a hard time a lot. Maybe that's what you do with your best friends. But his story is really something to behold. So thanks for being here, man. I just always great.
SPEAKER_00Anytime I can spend time. But you got this beautiful place out here that's peaceful and beautiful. Why why do you invite me out here earlier, right?
SPEAKER_01I have for years, Derek, by the way. It takes him a while to do anything. But uh, so serendipitous life, right? We're on a small plane, three three seats across. We're the largest people in the plane by far. And they put us right next to each other. And Derek gives this like, gives me this look like you're taking up my space, man. What are you doing? And you know, and I'm like, I'm just who are you? What's your name? Oh, I know who you are. He's like, I need Derek, you know, trying not to tell me who he is. So we talk from Raleigh to New York, and he bugs me the whole time. You gotta make a make a story about, you gotta do a story about my coach. And I'm like, that's not what I do. We make like Johnny K plus Eight and Sisterwood, blah, blah, blah. So that's not my butt. He goes, Well, just come. He comes and goes to my office in Carberry, gets me, finally drags me up to DC to meet Morgan, and the rest is history. You meet one of the greatest coaches ever, and you're in his presence, and you have no choice but to drink his Kool-Aid, and the rest is, you know.
SPEAKER_00It was really But you forgot why what really why I took to you.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00You had a quote from your high school coach. Oh, yeah. Don't drink the ink.
SPEAKER_01That's right, Coach Charlie, God rest his soul, our high school football coach, was don't drink the ink, meaning don't take yourself too seriously, you know, and don't be reading your press clip and just keep playing ball. So Derek and I quickly jive together. And then meeting Morgan and all the people in your community of Morgan, which is it's just hard to explain. Morgan was a guy whose putties were John Wooden and Red Arbeck and Dean Smith. This guy, he is on the holy grail of basketball. And hence Derek came up with the name, The Godfather. Called it in one of his This is the Godfather of basketball. Well, you gotta tell the story. And we captured that and made it the film, right?
SPEAKER_00Oh, what a film. And what a man. Oh, yeah. I mean, not just a good basketball coach, but a guy that cared about his players uh beyond basketball. Oh, yeah. And we never talked about uh the the actual uh winning. We never talked about that. We talked about the process of life, about working hard and being educated and being a part of a team. And that's what made him more special because we wanted to not disappoint him because we knew he cared about us. And that's the true sense of leadership and a coach.
SPEAKER_01So let's go back to the beginning. When did Derek Wittenberg realize or somebody realize you were a pretty good basketball player?
SPEAKER_00Well, I would say back when I was my early age when I was uh at um playing in a boys' club. How old are you? I was nine years old. Wow. Nine years old, and uh I played all three sports. I was good at baseball, basketball, and football. And uh and I started to get better at each sport, you know, every every season. And uh some of the coaches just drew to me, like uh Harry Carter was my uh boys club coach at 12 years old, and uh uh Mr. Carter, Mr. Butch, and and uh all these coaches, like so many of them in every age or weight class, you always have a different coach every season. And so I just they believed in me. I continued to grow and believe in myself, and and I had aspirations, and I learned that in order to get an opportunity to go to college, you got to go to a really good high school. And that's when De Matha High School came into play.
SPEAKER_01That education you got there, Dematha, though, beyond your basketball. I mean, Danny Ferry once said that Morgan was the greatest teacher he ever had. He went to Duke, and he said none of those guys at Duke even touched Morgan in terms of a educator, even in his history class.
SPEAKER_00Well, Dematha Catholic high school was a stickler about discipline, uh, and they wanted you wanted you to learn. It wasn't like we're gonna take this test, you're gonna get this information, just take the tests. No, they were a stickler about you actually learning the information and being a better student.
SPEAKER_01I think since this is occuction, we're trying to help people find their way in terms of what they want to be. The other thing to point out with people is you've got to know uh w who who yourself, you've got to keep thinking about yourself and who you're gonna find to help you because you constantly need help. We all need help. I think sometimes we forget because it's so frustrating to find good help or a mentor, that how important that truly is to keep looking for those mentors and find them because they can change your life.
SPEAKER_00It takes courage and you have to be humble to ask for help because if you need help, sometimes people don't want to ask.
SPEAKER_01But y I completely. And it's so we all need help, right? Absolutely. And and trying to recognize that simple fact, it's it's tough sometimes for people to reach out and get help.
SPEAKER_00The best knowledge that we have today, even with social media, is that we got access to people that we can reach out to them by email. You can see uh positive information on social media or a friend like yourself, you can reach out and ask them information about something. Listen, we don't know. That's why we hire lawyers and accountants and people who do podcasts and TV. Uh if you are not that's not your area, you have the somebody to help you. You got access to help, let people help you. And that's what I encourage with these young people. Even when I was coaching, I would encourage our young people to say, listen, if you're struggling and something's going on, you gotta have somebody to ask somebody for help.
SPEAKER_01Oh, yeah. Speaking of asking for help and getting it, you and I are both products of scholarships. And I can't underestimate the value of scholarships. You academic, mine was more of a grant and aid need grades kind of thing. But I would have never gone to Duke without a scholarship. You probably wouldn't have gone to NC State without a scholarship. But and you've you've, boy, taken that to heart by starting your own foundation to help provide scholarships. I love that about what you're doing.
SPEAKER_00Well, I love the fact that I was a first generation graduate. You gotta remember neither one of my parents went to college.
SPEAKER_01Me, there me too. And uh had aunts and uncles who went, but not my parents.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. But other than that, I think that it was important that we were gonna go to college, but we didn't uh cure a lot of debt. But that was the goal all in one. I wanted to go to college, I wanted to have that college experience, I wanted to be a graduate. That was a big goal to mine.
SPEAKER_01What did you get out of college?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I think I got uh for one, the ability to communicate with with people, uh numerous amount of relationships, uh the ability to uh process information.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, hold on. That numerous amount of relationships is just you just make it rolls off your tongue, but if I could scan it, the relationships you have from college are filled this room and and the fill my whole property.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, it goes from Joanne Byrd, who was the registrar uh at NC State. That's the one that finally tells you that you graduated, right? She carried all your grades and everything. You graduated? Yeah, absolutely. And uh uh Dr. Hyman and Dr. Brown and uh I can tell you all my like 20 different administrators, uh Dr. Clark, that was the first uh black PhD at NC State, uh Dr. Wandra Hill, all those relationships, those were people at NC State, other than the coaches that told me that you're smart, you can do it, I want to see you succeed, uh keep your head on straight. And it was maybe a five-minute conversation, you know. And uh that's what I enjoyed uh as I look back about uh my experience at NC State.
SPEAKER_01Being an African American, uh do you feel extra motivation to help other young African Americans doing that what's happened to you really just what a difference it made in your life and what opportunities are available and the potential. You you you have a great scope of life thanks to your experiences and see what's possible. And you know, do you feel you know obligated to share that with young people?
SPEAKER_00I feel uh uh a huge obligation to do that and uh and and I'm a I'm excited to do it, and that's why I came back uh to NC State to to to pay it forward, to give it back, because I had such a 104 experience there at NC State. But uh I think the Wittenberg experience transcends race. It's not just because we're in February, we talk about Black History Month, that it's gonna be easy for kids, minority kids, to look to me for for guidance and for information and encouragement and empowerment. But I think throughout my life, uh whether it's February or every day and every month, I talk to so many kids from every walk of life. And that's what my wife and I enjoy about the Derek Windberg Foundation. We got multiple kids that we support and we take them as our own children, and we want to not just give them scholarships to help them finish college, we want to also empower them. Give them a community and encourage them and be what that that resource for them if they need help finding a job or getting some information or being a reference. We want to stay connected to them. And the difference of that today is that that's those transformational relationships that we grew up with in terms of a transactional relationship. Yeah. Meaning that I just want to use you for a day and I don't care about you, what a guy. I want to give you a scholarship, but I don't want to have a relationship with you. We that's not our policy here at the Derrick Greenberg Foundation. We stay connected. We want to continue to help them in their journey in whatever way we can.
SPEAKER_01How many years now?
SPEAKER_00It's 10 years going on 11. Wow. Fantastic. Over 300 scholarships given, over a million dollars worth of scholarship money. And um we're we're excited about it. We we think we're gonna double that years to come.
SPEAKER_01Well, you know, the your story I could go everywhere direction, but let's keep I'll go back and try to be somewhat linear. Uh so we know you're a pretty good basketball player, Morgan. You get to go to the high school. You that is probably the best, one of the best in America, period. And so how how did you make the decision to go to NC State with your mate, with your back court mate, Sidney?
SPEAKER_00It was an incredible story uh because I didn't really know I was gonna go where my cousin was to dig David Thompson. I saw him Saturday morning at Raycom Sports on TV in Norm Sloan with the colored jacket and Storm and Norman, they called him. And my cousin had 38 points in a national televised game. I said, that's where I wanted to go and NC State.
SPEAKER_01So, quick thank you. David Thompson is your cousin. Yes first, second? First cousin. First cousin.
SPEAKER_00His mama was a Wittenberg.
SPEAKER_01He's my age because when I was in college, we watched him win the national title against UCLA, and everybody, all the Dukies were in our comments room rooting for David Thompson at NC State. He could pick a dime off the top of the backboard. He broke when he fell, we were all, oh my gosh. But just the nicest person. I've gotten to meet him at your golf tournament. And truly, but spectacular was the rookie of the year even in the NBA, I think. And went on, he's just scored tons of points in the NBA.
SPEAKER_00First NBA player to make a million dollars. Was he really? With the different nuggets, yes. Wow. He had the Skywalker shoe.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Before Jordan, he was he had the Skywalker shoe. So uh he he was uh our first in many ways in the NBA.
SPEAKER_01And one of our uncommon story uh series we've done about your other cousin, Charlotte Smith. Charlotte Smith, yeah. So in our series for uh great North Carolinians, we've profiled your cousin who's the coach up at Elon and wasn't like the sec first or second women to dunk in a game and and hit D shot to help UNC win the women's national title.
SPEAKER_00And our other cousin, Alvin Gentry, who was with Larry Brown in the 1988 championship when they won the national championship.
SPEAKER_01So you have four cousins who have won the national championship in basketball for different teams. I don't know.
SPEAKER_00Is that a record? It's in the book. Read it. Read the book.
SPEAKER_01It's in the book. Is that a record? I mean, I don't know any other family that's got four members from the cousins who've all won national championships. You heard it here first. Right. Not just about jobs, it's about history. That's right. Picking your job is one of the most important decisions you will ever make in your life, who you marry, what you do, and your friends, right? Absolutely. Those are those kind of things you build on or don't.
SPEAKER_00And you have to keep evolving and changing with the times. And uh like for instance, I started off out I wanted to work at IBM, right? Like James Brown. James Brown. Or Zero. He was Zero. And uh getting out of college. First, I you know, I tried the NBA, didn't make the NBA, and I played in Europe one year. Trevor Burrus, Jr.
SPEAKER_01Why didn't you make the NBA? You were an incredible shooter.
SPEAKER_00You could jump out of the gym. Yeah, and I went and I got cut by the Phoenix Suns, but it it didn't devastate me, right? Like most guys uh keep chasing us like, oh uh I I didn't make it, I didn't go into NBA. So I wasn't devastated.
SPEAKER_01You outscored Michael Jordan in a game, correct?
SPEAKER_00Yes, I did. I mean every game I played against him. Every game, Michael, sorry, buddy.
SPEAKER_01Every game, Gary. Oh boy, this is gonna be mean. But you know, to be that good and still not be able to play pro ball, was it hurt you? How did how did it feel? I mean, how'd you get over it?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it felt um believe it or not, I I I was not I was disappointed, but I wasn't discouraged. You think that's partly because of your incredible foundation with Morgan and your family? Absolutely. Absolutely. I was mentally already prepared to like, if this doesn't work, that I can be successful doing something else. That's fantastic. And that's what individuals should think about that you you have more talent and skills than you think you have. And it I don't know when you're gonna have to make that adjustment, but you can.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, how did how did you know that you wanted to be a coach or that that was something that would be in your wheelhouse?
SPEAKER_00Start at Damatha High School, not just the influence of Coach Wooten and my boys' club coaches and all, and how I enjoyed the experience with those coaches, but we had the summer camp where I had an opportunity to coach young kids. So I had somewhat of an experience by coaching in the summer. So I enjoyed it and coaching the the little kids and basketball and everything with the camps, with Morgan's camp. And then I think it's just a way to stay connected uh to the game. If you if you're not playing, what's the best way to stay connected to the game? So I think uh um I enjoyed uh working with young people and the coaches, and I think that's what really uh ignited me to to get in the coaching profession.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, you I mean you play for two of the best ever. And Morgan, different, very different, but but so brilliant in their own ways. It's hard not to want to emulate somebody like that. I I mean I've met Morgan and it's hard not to drink his Kool-Aid.
SPEAKER_00Well, I mean, I think I think the experience is is how they treated you as a coach made you enjoy your relationship and also it made you more interested in maybe something you might want to do later on. I tell you the story how uh it really started. Uh I was cut with Phoenix Sons and then uh came back and went to school and then um uh taking graduate courses and then Coach Valle said, Usu you ought to pursue basketball. So I went and played in Europe, had a successful year in France, played in the uh 24 hours of Le Mans in Le Mans, had a wonderful experience there. The team had already uh uh started to build a team around me for me to come back. The coach Valle said, I got a coaching position hoping for you, I'd love for you to come back and help me start your coaching career. And I said, that's what I'm gonna do. And that started my coaching career, and I called uh Coach Wooden and and talked to him about it, and uh that's uh essentially how I started uh getting back into coaching. What did you learn from Coach Valvano? Uh a man that's passionate about life, uh uh passionate about the journey. Um I turned this phrase in a vision is a dream with a plan and all things are possible. And you gotta stick to it. And he was a big dreamer. He came to NC State thinking from day one we're gonna win the national championship. He instilled us, he made us visualize by practicing cutting down the nets, right? To visualize something before it happens. And a lot of people don't visualize that this is this is gonna happen, right? You don't know it's gonna happen, but you gotta visualize and and and and make it possible. And that's what he did for us.
SPEAKER_01You know, we've started a nonprofit called See It to Be It. I should have a character of Jim Balvano up there, you know, as see it. If you can see it, you can be it, because that's what he taught you guys, right? Absolutely. If you can see it, you can possibly be it, but you gotta see it to be it.
SPEAKER_00You gotta see it.
SPEAKER_01You gotta visualize it first, and then you've got to work towards executing.
SPEAKER_00When I took my first head coaching job at Wagner College, they had never been to the tournament. And this that's what I wanted. I wanted to be the first. And uh I made our team at Wagner College practice cutting down the nets just so they can visualize it. And in 2003, we won their first uh championship and going to the NCAA tournament which I mean put that school on the map, and it was just tremendous. What a great accomplishment. Absolutely. And those kids, I still have a relationship with every one of those kids. They called me on Father's Day, they doing the holidays. Every one of those kids remember that experience because I took a bunch of kids, I called them a bunch of misfits, right? From all over the country that didn't know their direction, and uh I made them better than what they were. And not just just on the court, but six guys on the dean's list, the highest GPA over 3.4 GPA in four years for those kids, and they won the championship. Wow. So I m I I made them I I wanted to maximize their potential in every area as a as a human being.
SPEAKER_01How did you make that transition from being a coach to being in administration? And what they you call that your position administration? I guess it is.
SPEAKER_00It is administrative, but um Uh I I could I could probably start here when I was uh fired at Fordham University. And I just had a fantastic year two years prior to that and I got fired and I wanted to uh to pursue coaching, but I set out a year um 2010, and then I started working with ESPN and I worked for ESPN and also um I produced the film Survive in Advance and then in 2013 I got a call back from uh Mark Godfrey to come back um to NC State and I always wanted to come back and kind of get close to retirement and I was passionate about that. Then I'm like, I need to get I need something else, and that's when I started the foundation. I wanted to help juniors and seniors finish college, and I was excited about that. But that's when I got to a 10-year point, I said, I need to do something else. I need to, I would always get passionate about another transition, another project. It keeps me excited about something else, and something else is excited and new. Then I started the book. What did you learn about yourself writing this book? Oh man, I learned that it's it's all about uh helping others. That's gonna, I'm working on my legacy. About how many kids can you graduate, how many kids can you help, right? And and that's what's cool about our our graduation is that you see those kids, they don't know Derek Woodbury, they don't know my story, but then all they know is they got an opportunity to finish collins and to take the next step.
SPEAKER_01That's what's cool. You are such a product of Morgan and your folks.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, oh yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, oh yeah. What's the difference between being a basketball player, a coach, and what you do now?
SPEAKER_00Oh well, I'm gonna start from uh being an administrator first.
SPEAKER_01Okay.
SPEAKER_00Uh uh essentially, uh I advise student athletes as an associate athletic director. I advise them to think uh life after they leave NC State. That's a great role. And uh because I wanted the very few athletes that didn't, to your point, you asked earlier that I I was won a national championship, I got drafted, I got cut, and instead of pursuing it, I went one year to Europe, then I came back to school and finished, and then I started my coaching career. So we want to get uh individuals, uh uh men and women, to think about life after sports. What is it you'd like to do if you didn't play sports, and what career would you like to pursue? So we tried to advise them in that. And uh You are uniquely qualified to do this. So I I tried to mentally prepare them and I and I tell him about my story. I said, listen, I got cut, um and and and it wasn't very pretty. I mean, they when they cut me, I got off the bus and they said, Hey man, you're no longer with us. See you later. So it's a it's a brutal business the way you get cut. And then you're like, what do you do from there? So I had my degree. I was prepared to go into the coaching profession instead of taking a job at IBM, and I started my coaching career, and I did that for 30 some odd years uh in a very successful coaching career, and then had to transition from then. So I'm trying to prepare these. You're gonna be uh 24, 25, and you're not gonna be able to play sports, but you can have a wonderful career doing something, but you gotta find out what what your interests are, what you'd like to do. Do you wanna teach? Uh, do you want to go into the corporate world? So I tried to advise them in that.
SPEAKER_01So with young people today, you know, and they w wonder what they could, should we what kind of advice do you have for them in general, you know?
SPEAKER_00Well, first of all, uh I like to tell them that first of all, believe in yourself and second of all get a plan. And the plan may change. Most likely. Yeah. And the third thing is that this is important. When the going gets tough, don't give up. So what our mantra is dream, believe, work, now finish. Dream, believe, work, now finish the job. And what does that mean to you? That finish? Well, the finish part is that it's going to get tough. You're going to work at it and things don't seem like it's going well, or or you're getting to the crust of it and just you don't know which way to go. Uh, you got to finish it. You got to stay with it, finish the job. If you finish it, you'll get over that hump, right? And you and you'll get to where you want to go. You know, what you hang around is what you become. And I would tell young people find uh the most successful people that you can and hang around them, right? Because learn from them. You'd learn from them, but you can't learn from them unless you'd be around positive people.
SPEAKER_01Right. So, Derek, we have a camera operator here who is multi-talented and young and wondering which what she's going to do with her many talents. How does she sift through the fact that she could do write, post-production, shoot? Uh so brilliantly talented. So, how if you're a young person like Annika, uh, what do you do with all those? How do you sort through which talent to choose?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it's um um you gotta you gotta really think about what's gonna be your next step, right? And um a lot of times people are afraid to take the jump, right? Whatever that next step is. If it's do I want my own podcast, don't I want to venture out and and work for a bigger company? It's more so the fear of taking the next step. I've always advised some young people, I got a young uh kid that I mentor that I had to I made him leave North Carolina, and now he's like one of the youngest vice presidents at West Virginia State uh that it's in the country, uh Trey Jones, because uh he was afraid to be uncomfortable.
SPEAKER_01Out of his comfort zone.
SPEAKER_00To leave North Carolina and explore something that that's outside his realm and and it's work for him. So I would think it's most of it's fear. So stretch your comfort zone. Stretch your comfort zone and be uncomfortable about you. You may have to move.
SPEAKER_01I think that's a great advice lesson for anybody, and it's a really hard one to execute, which is get outside of your comfort zone because we all be comfortable, right? We want our house to be a certain degree, we want to be, you know, we got food in the refrigerator, lots of things, right? But we don't really learn until we get outside of our comfort zone, do we? Or we don't learn nearly as much.
SPEAKER_00And and and there's opportunities out there, uh depending on what you're looking for in particular. And so um uh those opportunities might be elsewhere to move up or to take advantage of another opportunity. Like in coaching professors, so if I wanted to pursue being a head coach, right, instead of being assistant, I started off as an assistant or I started off as a camera person, and now I want to pursue uh going to a bigger company or going to a bigger school. Well, I moved from North Carolina to Colorado to West Virginia, different culture, Georgia Tech, and I learned along the way, and not only did I learned along the way, I gained more context, I got more information, I became more valuable. So you gotta find your passion, take some chances. Uh you you got to uh be ambitious about uh what your track is. Like from assistant coach, I wanted to be a head coach. From a head coach, I wanted to uh when I got fired, I went into TV. It's something that I uh I liked. I wanted to see if I liked, and I did for a while. But my my ultimate goal was to come back to administration. Why? So I want to be a part of my university, right? So that's what drove me. That was a passion of coming back and helping my school. And in the midst of that, uh the next step was to start my foundation outside of what I was doing at NC State. So I'm constantly looking to uh for exciting projects or reinventing myself, and it keeps me um uh passionate and fired up about my my my next moment, right? Or my next opportunity. And uh my next one is the podcast later.
SPEAKER_01Right? You're doing a podcast. He's gonna be doing a podcast. I'm excited about that. I want to say thank you, everybody, for being here for OcuDocs the Podcast with our my very, very special guest, Derek Wittenberg. Don't forget to subscribe. Don't forget to hit that like button. Again, OcuDocs the Podcast, we're here to help you decide what you might can be, and we're gonna explore that through many other people's lens of their lives with great life lessons with people like Derek Wittenberg, who certainly had some great life lessons to share with us today. I can't thank you enough, buddy. Just, you know, make me cry. I love you so much. Ah, thank you.