From Heroin Addiction to Saving Lives in Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside [SUJY #004]

In this episode of the Stably Unstable Podcast, I sit down with Dale, a former heroin addict who survived addiction, rebuilt his life through recovery, and now works on the front lines of Vancouver’s Downtown Eastside helping people struggling with addiction, homelessness, and mental illness.

We explore Dale’s personal journey into addiction, what opioid addiction actually feels like, the turning point that ultimately led him toward sobriety, and the most impactful interventions that helped him break free from addiction.

We also have an honest conversation about the realities of the Downtown Eastside — one of the most heavily impacted neighborhoods in North America when it comes to addiction, overdose deaths, homelessness, and mental health challenges.

Chapters:
00:48 - Dale’s Origin Story
06:03 - When addiction took over
09:25 - The appeal of opioids
12:02 - The cycle of addiction
15:35 - Dale’s experience with Fentanyl
16:55 - How Fentanyl feels different from Heroin
17:30 - Dale’s experience with overdose
19:11 - What’s it feel like to wake up in the hospital?
20:50 - Impact of harm reduction after overdose
24:14 - What is it like to go into withdrawal?
26:30 - Dale’s housing situation during addiction
27:43 - The bio-psycho-social model of addiction
29:37 - How addiction impacted relationships
34:17 - Dale’s path to recovery
37:05 - Detox centers and which resources were helpful vs not
39:00 - Advice for anyone going trying to break free from addiction
42:07 - 12 step programs
43:22 - Opioid Agonist Therapy (Suboxone / Methadone)
51:07 - Temptation to relapse
53:55 - Different substances for different issues
58:34 - Alcohol and cannabis as gateway substances

Whether you agree or disagree with current approaches to addiction and harm reduction, I hope this interview encourages deeper understanding and empathy for people who are often overlooked or stigmatized.

Trigger Warning:
This episode contains discussions surrounding addiction, overdose, homelessness, trauma, violence, and mental illness.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

I'm currently in Vancouver's downtown Eastside, which has one of the highest rates of addiction, mental illness, and homelessness in North America. And as an ER doctor, I treat people from this community every single day on the job. I'm going to be meeting up with Dale who uh has personally struggled with addiction, became sober, and has spent the last four years of his life working in the heart of the downtown Eastside serving this community. And I am gonna hear a story. We're gonna be talking about a bunch of different topics, and I do want to offer a trigger warning that some of these topics are going to include mental illness, trauma, violence, PTSD, which can be quite triggering for some viewers. Hey Dale? Hey, good to see you. So thanks so much for sitting down with me. Maybe we can just start with your story. I'm curious to hear, you know, what your life was like before addiction and kind of what drugs and you started with and how this all happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:00

Yeah, so um there's Dale, obviously. Um I'm from Vancouver. Um my childhood up until like let's call it age 12 was pretty normal. Uh my parents, I was like born to divorce parents. Um so I grew up with uh both basically both two sets of parents effectively. I got like uh double duty uh like uh dad and stepmom and then uh uh mom and stepfather and such. And things were pretty honestly pretty normal. Um like I was diagnosed with dyslexia as a kid, um, and so that was obviously something I had to go through. I ended up going to special schooling and all this kind of stuff, but generally speaking, the things were pretty normal. Um, and then in 2007, one of my parents ended up getting cancer, um, and it ended up being pancreatic cancer, um, which as you probably know as a doctor is not a good diagnosis, it's bad. Yeah. Um, and um, so they ended up passing within about a one one year, nine-month period, um, kind of from from you know starting to be kind of off to uh you know to to literally passing away. So I ended up spending my kind of grade seven year, um, you know, a lot of times at the hospital and in hospice and all that kind of stuff. And that was also around the same sort of time. So I was 12, 13 through that period, and uh that was the same sort of time that I started experimenting with substance as well. Um, you know, I I have a hard time looking back and seeing, like, oh, like this was the thing that you know caused me to use or make these sorts of decisions. But I think it's pretty clear that that sort of like really severe shift and um you know the kind of trauma, if you want to call it that, of like watching a parent pass away and you know all the kind of other stuff that goes along with the you know kind of family drama and degradation and unstability, instability that goes along with all that. Um I think as a youth I saw substances as kind of like a way out of that, as like an escape effectively in some kind of way. Um and uh, you know, we're around, fortunately or unfortunately, you know, around that age is when a lot of people start experimenting. Um and I was very like I'll I've told people the story before. I was very self-motivated, kind of funnily enough. Like a lot of people talk about things like you know peer pressure or whatever, right? And I never really experienced that. I was never kind of in a situation where people were pushing drugs on me or whatever. I was always very interested and curious to try like the next thing and kind of push the envelope. Um, and you know, and so it started with obviously with pot, but very quickly developed into you know trying all sorts of other substances and basically doing whatever I could get my hands on, um, and always kind of asking, you know, dealers or people like what else do they have? Don't know they know other people, all these kinds of things. Um like my school and social life through most of that time was actually okay. Like, I always did pretty well in school, um, even though I was you know probably like stoned at the time and all that kind of stuff, but um really the big sort of shift um was when I was 17 or turning 17, 16, 17, I was in quite a severe car crash. Um, and then I started using opioids after that car crash, and that I had used opioids previously, but it was very inconsistent. Like, you know, I'd buy Percocets from someone here or there, or this that was back in the time of oxycodone and stuff like that, as you're probably familiar with, right? You know, you buy like oxies or whatever from people in the street or from dealers, um, but it was you know relatively consistent, and then there was a pretty sharp shift after that accident that pushed me into using opioids um heavily and which became almost exclusively within the course of probably just a couple months. So going from being a very kind of polysubstance user, kind of hippie kid almost smoking weed, psychedelics, all that kind of stuff, to um you know, to using primarily opioids, which went from very quickly from things like oxycodone to heroin primarily. Okay. And now this was would have been call it, we're looking at sort of 2012 area year, 2013. So I was using heroin and and that heroin and eventually I was using heroin IV, and again, all that kind of stuff was very much pursued at my own um interests. Uh like I didn't no one like taught me anything or no one pushed me to do it. I was just kind of like, you know, this is sort of what you do from the movies or media, right? Like if you're doing if you're doing down, down is the street name for heroin if people don't know, or any sort of opioid at this point, um you know, you obviously use needles or whatever, so kind of like going that sort of path. Um and you know, very quickly though, like opioids and heroin specifically really took over my life entirely. As probably I'm sure you and your viewers are uh would not be surprised by like heroin addiction is like very severe. Yeah, you know, as well obviously if you're you know doing injecting and all that kind of stuff, and um, you know, it really took over my kind of whole mind and body and uh psyche and stuff like that. And what ended up happening is uh effectively a multi-year period from kind of 17 to about 20, so about four years of uh using heroin um and occasionally other opioids, and basically shifting in and out of youth detoxes, youth treatment centers, youth like you know, reform programs. So I'd you know be at a reform program for like four or five months out in the country somewhere, and then I'd come back and then I'd be using it again for six months, and then I'd be out again at some center for two months, and then I'd be back, and and so there was this CSA of kind of in and out of systems, and then relapse, social workers, and relapse, and all this kind of stuff. Um, and so that was really what that addiction kind of looked like up until I was about 20. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:22

Yeah, you know, I often ask a lot of people that I treat in the ER who come in with substance use disorder whether it's just like purely opioids or a mix. Yeah. A lot of it is like crystal meth, is what I'm seeing these days. But um I often ask them how they became addicted. And I feel like most of the stories that I hear are kind of like three different things. The first one is like escaping trauma. Yeah. Second one is um, you know, they got addicted after they were prescribed pain medications for you know some kind of injury that they had. And then the third one, which I often feel is kind of like um a very sad method, is uh people try uh drugs because of like the party scene. Like oftentimes it's stimulants like cocaine, and then yeah, they are kind of chasing that high uh go from cocaine to crystal math, and then start getting introduced to opiates. But um, sounds like your story is kind of has a blend of all different three.

SPEAKER_02 8:15

Yeah, there's I I would say it's a blend of all three. I mean, I think that would primarily be like the trauma. I think looking back, you know, losing a parent and kind of having that, you know, sort of radical shift from a very normal, quite stable familial life, even though it was you know, divorced parents and that kind of stuff. I was pretty used to it, to you know, being faced with kind of you know mortality and all the trauma around losing a parent and all the kind of other stuff. I think that was like the primary starter. And then I also think, as you said, like the accident, and obviously the prescribed like I was prescribed opioids after the accident, and you know, I had already had some affiliation with them and obviously already had substance use issues, and so those really that I think that really just kind of like took off from there. And I am kind of my my story is a little bit unique, wouldn't say wholly unique, but it's a little bit unique in that you mentioned like most people, as well as I've known, have would have some level of polysubstance use, right? Like, so like you know, oftentimes it'd be opioids with things like meth or opioids and coke or whatever together, where I was really primarily just an opioids person, like that was really all that I did.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

What was it about opioids that drew you to other things?

SPEAKER_02 9:31

I think the primary thing now, like looking back, was that they just made you feel like okay, cool, calm, collected. And like we'll get into this, I'm sure, but like, you know, my using dovetailed with the beginning of the fentanyl crisis, right? So when I was using, I was using actual heroin and stuff like that, and morphine a little bit, and all these sorts of things. And there's also a certain degree in which those sorts of drugs also feel more functional, as you know, that might sound kind of strange, but you know, if you're high on heroin, especially if you're used to it or morphine or whatever, like you you don't like you don't necessarily always feel that messed up. Okay, like you just feel like you feel good, you feel cool, you feel calm, but you know, your ability to like go out and do stuff and talk to people and socialize and all those kind of sorts of things, you know, like they um aren't necessarily as interrupted um as something like you know, if you're on like meth or whatever, it's like quite apparent that you're like on methamphetamine.

SPEAKER_00 10:35

Were you still able to uh like work during that time when you were addicted?

SPEAKER_02 10:39

So I I was in school for for some time during that period, eventually I dropped out, and that really has to do less with like the actual being intoxicated component and more that like I had to devote most of my time and energy to getting substances. And so that that would become, and that was primarily through things like you know, like petty, you know, like like pet effectively petty crime, like or you know, I did have some jobs and stuff like that, but it would be you know like either selling my own items or you know, uh you know, stealing iPods from a gym locker room or whatever it might be, right? Like these sorts of small, I never would engage in any like really serious criminal offenses, but like that was kind of you know, sort of a classic thing if you're like a teenager and you don't have money and you're trying to like buy like drugs every like daily, right? You gotta like do what you gotta do. And so it became a very all-consuming thing. And then on top of that as well, the aspect of being in and out of um like like centers as well also really interrupted my my education and schooling and stuff like that. Because it's kind of hard to be, you know, at school when you've been like, you know, when you're all suddenly, you know, living and attending some, you know, like youth reform camp in the middle of the of the province or whatever as well, right?

SPEAKER_00 12:01

So you were really it sounds like you were kind of stuck in that cycle where it's like you're high, then you're going into withdrawal, then you're trying to search to get the job to. Yeah. So and you really felt like um when you weren't using, you were actually actively going into opiate withdrawal?

SPEAKER_02 12:16

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:16

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

Yeah, like that, you know, I think it's it's kind of funny because I when I when I look back, I think my first probably six months or so of using uh heroin like every day, I it's almost like I wasn't fully aware that I was that I was like addicted to heroin. I was just it was like I was just kind of automated and also too, I was you know six, seventeen years old or whatever too.

SPEAKER_00 12:44

Jeez, it's really young, eh?

SPEAKER_02 12:45

Yeah, it's quite young.

SPEAKER_00 12:46

Were you kind of like one of the youngest people in the uh unfortunately no? No, okay.

SPEAKER_02 12:52

No, so but like um yeah, like so so it did uh sorry, what was the original question? Um uh talking about the cycle of like uh oh yeah, so yeah, so so in terms of like things like withdrawal and stuff like that, it took me a few months to really realize like what was going on. Like I would start to feel ill and I would just get really bad cravings, and it was almost like living like kind of robotically, right? Like you're kind of like you start to start living like instinctually, like I just have to use, I just have to operate this way because I'm not feeling well, I'm not okay, and I just know that like you know, if I use I'll feel better, right? And so like exactly like you said, like caught in that cycle repetitively. Um but it actually took me a while to realize that like to have some awareness that that was actually what was going on.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 13:42

Um but I was very much, I I think it probably only took a couple weeks, if that, of using, to be in a state where I was physically addicted to opiates. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, like it happened, it happens quite quickly. How much were you using per day and uh it's it's you know, it's hard to say because it was a while it's you know, it's over ten years now, but I would say that there was definitely a period where I'd be using, you know, between half a gram to a gram streetwise, kind of daily, would probably be the average.

SPEAKER_00 14:12

Is that oh that's quite is that quite a bit?

SPEAKER_02 14:14

It would be like yeah, that would be What does that equate to?

SPEAKER_00 14:17

Like, is that like injecting like two, three times a day or something like that?

SPEAKER_02 14:20

Yeah, we usually would be multiple times a day. Um it's you know, again, I have to think back because it's been a long time, but it was probably any uh you'd probably anywhere from about a hundred to two hundred dollars a day was kind of like the the the benchmark for you know like what I you know where what it took to feel okay and all that kind of stuff. Now, like thing, as I kind of said, like my using sort of dovetail, my the end of my using is dovetail with with fentanyl and introduction of fentanyl, and that's really different because fentanyl is so much more potent, right? So like the amounts that people are actually using it many times is like not as much. You know, like like if you were doing a gram of fentanyl versus a gram of heroin, like you would die. Oh yeah, you would die, like for sure. Yeah, right? So so that really like what in terms of like if you're talking to people now on the street, like in terms of like kind of what amounts and stuff they're using, that would probably like a half a gram, a gram would sound like a lot.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:24

Um but back then for like the kind of classic you call it like heroin era, that would probably be a pretty standard like level of like a daily heroin addict kind of person. Okay. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:36

Did you ever try fentanyl?

SPEAKER_02 15:38

Yeah, so I tried fentanyl once or twice. I know I tried it one time, um, like for sure, like like not with my own knowledge. Um like I, you know, funnily enough, I was there was a period where I was in and out there at back back when I was young, there was a youth detox center. It's not around anymore, but I was a regular patron there at that at that um youth detox. Um there was a period probably where I was there almost every week or two. Um and um I remember talking to other you know young people that were there. So it was for people between the ages of I believe 13 and 21 or something like that. And they would talk about how there was this new like chemical heroin that's like a hundred times stronger and is like way like has way worse withdrawals and all this kind of stuff. And you know, looking back now, I realized that they were talking about fentanyl. That was probably about 2012, 2013. So that was really like the very beginnings of fentanyl. It started to come on the scene as this like alternative to heroin, and then there was like one, like right near the end of my using, there was a time where where you know I was looking for drugs or whatever, and someone said they had fentanyl, and so that's what I used. Um and it was quite um different than heroin, like in terms of if you're talking about like like the aesthetic experience of like what a higher intoxication is like, um, fentanyl was considerably more um inebriating in a way than uh than heroin was, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

So apart from it being inebriating, like what else can you tell me about the experience?

SPEAKER_02 17:25

It's so um I found that fentanyl like caused a lot of my cell like to black out a lot more.

SPEAKER_00 17:32

Did you ever overdose?

SPEAKER_02 17:34

Uh yeah, I did. I did on heroin, and it's possible that I that I did overdose. I had quite a severe overdose one time. I overdosed a couple times, where I ended up going to the hospital and all that kind of stuff, administered Narcan. And one of those times was very severe. And I don't I don't have the details, I don't know, but I I think it's entirely possible that that was actually fentanyl in terms of like and the I ended up being in the hospital for about three or four days, and they were concerned about yeah, they were concerned about things about like brain damage and stuff like that, um, because of the you know the severity of the OD and such. Um but I I think it's entirely possible that that that was actually fentanyl because when I OD'd that time. Um that was an injection or something? Injection, yeah, I believe. But yeah, yeah. Um but yeah, fentanyl was considerably more like um much more of a sedative in a way, and much more like kind of like black, you know, memory loss, like just kind of in and out of consciousness effectively, um, versus like something like heroin or morphine, these kind of a classic traditional opioids that had almost more, it sounds weird to say, but more of like a cleaner, clearer sort of feeling. Like you didn't cognitively you didn't feel as like inebriated or out of it, whereas fentanyl was very um like intense, very strong, but not necessarily as euphoric as the odd kind of combination, not necessarily as like much as like a oh I feel really good, I feel really calm. It was just more like you're really messed up from the from the dose or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Well, what was it like waking up in the hospital? Because I I I mean like as an ER doctor, I treat people from the downtown east side, people that overdose literally every single day, multiple times a day. So maybe walk me through what it's like to wake up and how like have a doctor.

SPEAKER_02 19:26

I had two very different experiences. So the like the so one experience was a very severe overdose. Um, you know, I can't frankly can't remember what the details were in terms of the medical concerns. Um I know I was like I was deaf for about like a day afterwards. Yeah. Yeah, I couldn't hear anything, yeah. Crazy. Yeah, yeah. And um there was some other medical concerns and stuff, and everything ended up being okay. We I hope. But uh, but that experience was very people were very like attentive and and caring. I ended up you know being moved, like I said, I spent multiple days in the hospital, all this kind of stuff. There was another time where I OD'd, um, I can't remember which time it was first to be honest, but where it was much more what I expect the standard experience to be like, where you know I woke up on the ground, actually not too far from here, to be honest, and um, you know, with with paramedics and police around me. They had an arcanned you? Yeah, they had narcanned me. They took me to the hospital, and then basically um the doctors told me um, actually, I remember the the the exact conversation with the doctors were like, Well, you know what I'm gonna tell you, and I said, you know, I'm oh I'm gonna say oh I need to stop using, and he was like, Oh no, no, no, not like I'm not expecting that. Um you just like don't use alone. Um so and then basically they just told like they were like you're good to go, and I left. Wow. So that was probably I was probably in and out of the hospital within about an hour and a half, two hours of that experience. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:58

So I've had that conversation with many people as well. How does that hit as like someone that is drug addicted? Like uh for a doctor to have a harm reduction approach where it's like, no, you don't have to stop using, but uh just use in a safer way.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

I think, you know, for myself at that time, right? Like I had I was trying like I had been in and out of trying to get off drugs and all that kind of stuff. So if I'm being honest, it felt kind of hopeless having a doctor sort of say it was almost with the tone of like, I'm not expecting you to stop. Like I'm I'm just saying like like just use more safely next time, yeah. Which was kind of like not the most encouraging in a sense encouraging. However, I also recognize that like you know, that is in some ways probably a more uh realistic conversation to have with certain people at certain times, right? In terms of you know, a lot of times, like you know, people are gonna overdose and like they're you in like the reality is that in most cases, those sorts of people who those you know, a doctor. Seeing they are going to use again. The chances are they are going to use again. And so having those conversations are really, you know, important in terms of emphasizing safe use. But it also definitely felt disheartening not being able to, you know, kind of feel like, you know, like the like the expectations felt low in terms of like what the doctor was expecting me to be like to do, right? Yeah. But that could have also been from my own personal mindset in terms of where I was at, right?

SPEAKER_00 22:29

Yeah. I guess like um when people have an overdose, it's usually like a major, it's a major event, right? I wake up at a hospital, and I feel like a lot of times I try to frame that as like, okay, like someone's coming in in crisis, this is one potential opportunity to like turn their life around and like offer other I guess resources and opportunities to get out of that cycle. So oftentimes like we're offering things like going to the uh the addictions clinic for to get into detox, uh, getting on some kind of opiate agonist therapy like Suboxone or methadone. Um and I I think a lot of it is kind of gauging where someone is in that kind of like the stages of change, whether they're like pre-contemplative or contemplative, you know. Yeah. But uh yeah, you're right. Like that is something that is uh very commonly practiced among doctors.

SPEAKER_02 23:22

And I think, and I also think too, like we've got to remember, like this was over this was over 10 years ago, right? So I think like the conversations that doctors are gonna have now, and I know this from experience from my also my work and stuff like that, uh, like they look different, like they look more comprehensive. Yeah, like that conversation happened probably, I think that would have been probably 2014. So that's like very like right at the beginning of this sort of opioid crisis, fentanyl crisis, and so I think a lot of the language, but also a lot of like the supports and and and structures around all that kind of stuff just wasn't even necessarily there. Like I think where that was like the beginning of people trying to figure out you know how do we deal with this sort of crisis, and you know, the simplest thing of like, well, don't use alone is you know, it is like uh advice that saves lives every day for sure.

SPEAKER_00 24:15

Um can you walk me through what it's like to go into withdrawal? Like what does that feel like? And uh yeah, for sure. Um like is there one particular instance where you had really really bad withdrawal?

SPEAKER_02 24:26

No, they're all kind of they all kind of sort of blend together, but it's I would describe it as um, it really sucks.

SPEAKER_01 24:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 24:36

Like it's really it's really unpleasant. It's it's a really unpleasant experience. Basically, it feels like having a really severe, potentially fatal flu. Like, like, you know, you feel like you're gonna die. The symptoms are very similar to like some sort of like influenza flu type thing where it's like you know, fever, sweating, some people might be throwing up or diarrhea, unable to. I would have very bad insomnia, yeah. So I'd be like awake for days, just completely unable to sleep. Um, so you're having all these sorts of symptoms of like you know, basically feel like you're dying, and then on top of that, you also have the mental side of it where you're having very strong cravings, you're having like the kind of like the voices, the psychological aspect of the addiction in your head, talking of you know, you kind of kind of feel like you know, you know there's a way to end this, to get out of this feeling. So you're so you're simultaneously dealing with feeling so ill that it feels like you're gonna die while also you know having cravings for and knowing about this substance that can get rid of this feeling. So you're constantly being pulled by these two sorts of forces. Um, so it's very uh it's it's it's really really really um an unpleasant experience, and I certainly don't recommend it to anybody. Um in my case, I would find that that generally I would last about a week to ten days. Um now different substances and different people like it really can range. I know some people it's like uh experience a few days, and especially with other types of opiates, people some people have symptoms that last over a month, and there is also you know kind of longer-term withdrawal symptoms that people can describe as well. Um but I would say for me most of the time it was sort of like a I expect kind of like a week-ish zone where I was gonna be like completely out before I fart started to feel sort of more normal again.

SPEAKER_00 26:31

Okay. Um were you ever homeless?

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Not not to the point that I was sleeping on the street, but there were times where I was like staying with friends or staying with people. Yeah, effectively, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 26:47

Yeah, what was that like?

SPEAKER_02 26:49

Um, not necessarily the greatest because like a lot of times if you're gonna be in that sort of situation, you're gonna be around people who are also using or have other like issues, um, whether that be like mental health or behavioral or whatever, um, you know, it's not like I wasn't like couch surfing with my grandma. Yeah, you know what I mean? So so it it and it also feels like deeply destabilizing because you know you don't feel like you have like a home or a place to really go or a place that really feels safe for you. Yeah. Um and so yeah, like that was I never got to the point where I personally was living on the street, but that was sort of near right at the end when I finally stopped using where I was kind of like you know staying with like some uh you know, kind of shadier people or whatever, and sleeping on couches and doing all that kind of stuff that was um yeah, also not certainly not like ideal at all.

SPEAKER_00 27:45

Yeah, um one thing that I try to explain to people over social media is kind of like the bio so psychosocial uh aspects of addiction. It's not just like that you're like physically dependent on the drugs, but it's like yeah, there is that biological component, but you know, as you've kind of alluded to, there is the psychological point where component where there's like the two different forces that are like drawing you, you have the cravings and you're like actively going out to seek it out. And then the last one is a social, like what if you're completely immersed in that kind of environment, like everyone around you is using, and that in itself kind of like sucks you right back into the kitchen, even if you want to get out.

SPEAKER_02 28:23

Yeah, and that's and that's one of the biggest things that really happens. And you know, and I'm I'm glad that you know, I my history with that and my life started to change around like 1920 because you know the deeper you go into the sort of social world, and that becomes you know it becomes your life, it becomes, you know, it is a lifestyle, right? It is it is a social world, it is um people do build like real connections, all that kind of stuff there. And if you know, and if that's who you know and where how you know and like the world you know how to operate in and where you're comfortable and where your supports are, even if you know the supports might be like questionable or whatever, then it's really hard to leave that stuff behind, right? And a lot of times that's all that people have. That's they only have that social, that is their social world. So to say, like, I'm just gonna completely exit that, you know, then it's like you know, where do you go from there, right? If you especially if you don't have family supports or you don't have other friends or whatever it might be, then you're kind of alone, right? And that's um certainly not the feeling of being alone is certainly not a feeling of like being conducive to you know recovery or being healthy or whatever it might be.

SPEAKER_00 29:33

Tell me about what it was like uh with your like friendships and your family members because I guess um a lot of people definitely wouldn't know this, but the way that I was connected with you was through your mom. Like your mom's my next door neighbor, lovely lady, she's like definitely I think she knows this as well because she's definitely the favorite person in that neighborhood, and I spent a lot of time chatting with her.

SPEAKER_01 29:54

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 29:55

Uh but um that's kind of how I knew about your story because she would kind of share tidbits about that. But um, what was your relationship like with your mom and with your friends during the talk?

SPEAKER_02 30:05

Oh so I got very I would say I got very lucky in the sense of like I had part of the reason that I'm a major reason that I'm here today and that you know we you know we're able to talk like this, and I think especially this discussions is because you know I had a certain level of family support. You know, they didn't want to enable me at a certain point and all that kind of stuff, but my family was always supportive and trying to help me, you know, get on the right track or get off drugs or whatever it might be. And so they were really great about all that kind of stuff, and they're a big reason that I'm I'm here today. Uh another thing is that I never I was kind of a loner in terms of my using, which is obviously not safe because of using alone, but I never built, like I certainly knew people and had some loose friendships, but I never built a really close like network of like using friends and people and stuff like that. I was always kind of like a a ghost or just someone who was like around on their own or would occasionally meet people. Is that just personality or I think personality and maybe maybe I had some inclination that I didn't want to get too sucked into that world. I mean, I certainly saw and experienced some things as you're kind of on the periphery and certain hangout people, and like I kind of, you know, the more the the the more you kind of cycle in and get like you know, get connected and become a part of all that kind of stuff, the more you know, the deeper you are and the more meshed you become, um, and the harder it is to get out, right? Yeah. Um, and so I think there was maybe some component of me realizing that and knowing that, and just wanting to like kind of I just wanted to like get high and feel okay and do my own thing and not be too much a part of the like using world. Yeah. Um, and that, you know, I'm very like lucky that that was the case.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Um one um common story that I hear with people that are drug addicted with their families, because sometimes I do get families that bring in people uh because they want to get into detox, um, is that it's so psychologically hard on the family members, and like the people that are drug addicted keep coming to the family members trying to like get money from them, stealing objects from their homes. And uh that ultimately leads to the family cutting the people off. Did that never happen with you?

SPEAKER_02 32:23

I mean it happened, it happened to the degree that I was I I was cut off to the degree that it was like we don't want anything to do with you unless it involves you going to like treatment, right? Unless it involves like supporting you in some like obviously healthy way, but like you know, we're not making you money or we're not gonna like support your addiction or whatever, right? Um and I think that that, you know, like I I'm very grateful that that was the you know sort of line that they took and the way that they um operated because you know it it it did allow me to like you know when I you know that inevitably did go to treatment or the times, I did, you know, it was a multi-stage process, but they were always willing to help with that and it, you know, and and and and and kind of guide me through those processes on some level, um which was huge, um, but they would not enable or like like like I got kicked out of my home, like family homes and all that kind of stuff, right? Um for exactly the kind of behaviors they're you're describing, and that is why a lot of people get cut off, right? Yeah, is because you know, like they're you like when you're in when you're in like that level of addiction, it you really do have like a tunnel vision. Like I said before, it it feels like you're like a robot or kind of like an automaton, like you're not you're not like you're not fully cognitively like there, if you're so singularly focused on like just using that everything else becomes kind of like a blur and the concern, like you know, ethical concerns or familial concerns or social concerns or health concerns, all that kind of stuff just doesn't really matter. Um and if you're like you've if you've got that kind of tunnel vision, then there's not really like a lot um to be done unless there's like moments where you can maybe be maybe like break out of that, you know.

SPEAKER_00 34:18

Um let's move on to uh talking about how you got clean, because I think uh this is something that I'm really fascinated by how you were able to turn your life around. Yeah. Like, was it like one instance where you're like you hit rock bottom and you wanted to get clean, or like what was that process of?

SPEAKER_02 34:35

No, it's multi-stage, like I like I said, I went I went through multiple kind of youth centers and stuff like that. And I think like looking back, it was like a sort of stepping stone each kind of way up. Um you know, like going from being like completely unaware is almost like not even realizing that I had an addiction, being in some level of like denial, is what people would say, um, to uh you know to being aware but not being really aware what to do with it, to like starting to know what some of the tools and supports are, but not really knowing how to use them, and then you relapse again, and then can you start to learn how to use those supports? Um and eventually, like in the you know, going to treatment centers and stuff like that, and eventually I did move away from Vancouver and ended up in a different, completely different city, uh completely different community that had quite a large like recovery community associated with it and all that kind of stuff, and really just immersed myself in that social world. And I think that that was one of the biggest shifts, like one of the main things that happened is he kind of talked about the biopsychosocial. It's like you know, I removed myself from like the environments that I was familiar with, and then at the same time started to build up new social networks, new friends, new relationships, all that kind of stuff. Um new hobbies, interests, jobs, eventually school, all these sorts of things that I like cared about that sort of hung together as a life that I actually wanted to like pursue and had motivation to like continue on with and not basically like screw up. Um and so I like like that's effectively how that kind of like built up over time. Um and yeah, and I just sort of like the when I finally stopped using opioids and all that kind of stuff and like stuff kind of went um I ended up living in like a men's it's not an official recovery house, but like like a men's like kind of like sober home where it was a bunch of a bunch of younger guys who were all kind of on the same track as me and we all lived together as roommates. Um and I lived there for like a couple years actually, or uh probably about a year and a half, yeah. I don't think close to two years, and you know, built really close relationships, close friendships, um, and that was like a a huge like essential part of like that whole process for sure.

SPEAKER_00 36:58

Um so when you were because you mentioned a uh a couple times that you were kind of in and out of like youth detox centers, um what what were those detox centers like? And I guess like I I also want you to touch on what kind of resources were helpful and which ones weren't helpful in the world.

SPEAKER_02 37:16

Yeah, so so the like youth detox was certainly helpful, it was very harm reduction focused, um, and but they were very supportive. I went to to multiple centers. Um some of the centers were were terrible, like they were like very like all just they were not, they were poorly run, they were staffed by people who were not um, you know, their their training and knowledge and certification was certainly not adequate, didn't really know what they were doing, and and it was you know just very chaotic and inevitably like some of those centers actually were shut down and stuff like that. And then I also went to other treatment centers that were very um that were quite good, right? And they, you know, and they you know employed people who were you know certified counselors and had you know doctors on staff or psychiatrists on staff and had a more you know structured, holistic and like functioning program. Um you know the recovery world and all that kind of and treatment and all that kind of stuff is a I think it's changing now, but there's been a lot, I know there's been a lot of discussion about it's a little bit wild west in terms of like opening centers and what recovery is and what recovery treatment actually means and looks like. And so there's there's a lot of there's a lot of different, I guess you could say, styles and stuff out there. Um and some of them are like pretty, in my opinion to be pretty questionable in terms of like what they're actually doing. Um and some places are very well, you know, I do take a much more scientific and um like you know evidence-based approach in terms of what a treatment actually should be. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Um so if you were, I mean like you have worked with many people that are drug addicted who uh have wanted to get clean. Like what are what what's your typical advice to help these people get uh sober?

SPEAKER_02 39:16

I think I it kind of it it really like begs a different question like to me, or sort of begs the question of like like who am I talking to? Because like unfortunately that answer is really dependent on like the person that I'm having the conversation with.

SPEAKER_03 39:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 39:34

Um like if I'm talking with someone who has strong familial supports, strong, like you know, is in a relatively okay, say family is in a or they or family is in an okay financial position, you know, all this kind of stuff, they don't have other mental health issues, whatever it might be, then you know, the answer might be something like, you know, okay, well if you're you've got a severe addiction, like here's like a good, well-certified treatment center, can you can you get in there? Can you get on the waiting list? You know, are there people that can, are there ways that you can afford it, either through family or you know, other kind of grants, bursaries, programs, whatever it might be. Um, you know, but that answer isn't necessarily gonna work for someone who is say, you know, living on the street with no supports, also dealing with mental health issues might have also very well have you know some very serious physical health issues as well. You know, there and a lot of times those sorts of individuals have been through treatment many, many times before as well, right? So I think the answer is really dependent, unfortunately, on like the person and what their actual issues they're dealing with. I think like one simple suggestion I would make would be environmental. Like I think there's a huge thing for me, which is like if you can, if you're able, right, like you know, stop hanging out with people who are like, you know, stop hanging out with your using friends if you can like, you know, if if the whole city is a trigger, if the whole town is a trigger, then like leave, right? Like don't like change the environment. Like that a lot of times is a big enough of a shift for people to sort of start fresh and for things to change significantly. So that's like one of the one of the like the most primary pieces of like you know advice I would give to someone is like can you really change your environment and your social world up like pretty significantly? Yeah, um, and some people can and some people can't, uh, but in terms of like furthering treatment and all that kind of stuff, it's so dependent on like the person and like what they're dealing with. Because like, you know, like trying to send someone to like uh even like a good treatment center, you know, if they're also dealing with psychosis and you know severe health issues and have severe behavioral problems or whatever it might be, or maybe they just can't afford it or whatever, right? Like, then the answer is gonna look totally different because it's like some doors, some options, some opportunities are just not there or aren't aren't realistic.

SPEAKER_00 42:10

Have you ever tried um one of those 12-step programs like Narcotics Anonymous?

SPEAKER_02 42:14

Yeah, so I know I don't like consider myself like um like I'm a member of like any kind of 12-step programs anymore, but there was a multi-year period where I was like quite involved. Um, and like people will ask me like what was it that like was really good about them or whatever. Like I like I'm not gonna comment too much on like whether or not I think 12-step is is like you know the way to go or not. There are certainly some people who are very like zealous about 12-step, and there are certainly some people who are very dismissive. What I think was most essential for me though in that kind of early year period, first few years being up drugs and all that kind of stuff, being away from heroin, etc., was um the social aspect of 12-step meetings and all that kind of thing. Right? Like I was, and I was in an area where there was a lot of meetings and there was a lot of younger people at those meetings and stuff like that as well. And so I think the most important point really was the social community that I built from attending those meetings rather than any of the actual like structural teachings or doctrines of the actual programs themselves. It was more the social aspect for sure that was important. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 43:24

And um, did you ever try any like opioid agonist therapy to get or okay?

SPEAKER_02 43:29

Yeah, yeah, so I did so I did suboxone, um, but it was a very early on, I don't believe they do it this way anymore, but um very ear like um at a treatment center in which I I did a Suboxone taper, but it was a rapid taper, so the taper was like 21 days um, I believe 21 days long, and it was basically like they started me at a dose, and then over the course of like three weeks, just sort of like slammed the dose down to zero. Very rapidly. Very rapid. Oh, yeah. Interesting. It was So do they sell me that? I don't think that's a thing anymore. Okay. Like I haven't heard about that. Again, that would have been 2014. So that was kind of the beginning of that sort of era and the introduction of things like Suboxone and stuff as well. And yeah, so it was this very sort of like rapid taper idea. And I and as far as I know, that's not really a thing that anyone does anymore because it was quite, I remember like it was effective, but at the end, like I definitely remember the last few days like getting quite ill. It was super rusty. Yeah, yeah. Like you suddenly go into like withdrawal again for a few days, and you're kind of like, oh, like, you know. And so I think that they there's there's uh you know, the Suboxone is used now more over much more of a kind of long-term replacement therapy idea. Yeah. Which I think is probably probably better. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 44:49

One of the most admirable things about your story is, you know, you were you went from addiction to sobriety and you took yourself out of that environment, but then you put yourself right back in that environment to work in the downtown east side, right?

SPEAKER_02 45:03

Yeah, so I mean, I should say it's not like there was a there was a period of years to get there, but pretty quickly on from like getting clean and then like getting off hair and all that kind of stuff. Um I started working, I started going to university, and then I also started working in the mental health field. And I actually started by volunteering with the suicide hotline and the crisis line and stuff like that in my area. And so I was a volunteer there for some time, and then I actually ended up getting a job as an employee working as a suicide hotline crisis line worker, and I worked there for about a year. So that was my first sort of job in the mental health field. Um, and then from there I ended up working at a treatment center and at like an absence-based, pretty well-regarded uh medicalized treatment center. And I worked there for about four or five years, eventually working up into a kind of count kind of semi-counselor. Um I was kind of the supervisor, weekend supervisor of the second stage program. So the way a lot of treatment semals will work, especially some of the bigger and organized ones, is they'll have multiple stages, right? So there'll be like an inpatient stage where you're you usually anywhere from like a month to two months, usually, sometimes three, where you're like live in a facility and you don't leave and you're in the facility the whole time at your in treatment. And then a lot of times what they'll have is a second and a third stage. And so the second stage will be not everyone will go to the second stage, it'll usually be more reserved for people who have been to treatment before or they think need more support, and the second stage will be like a kind of half-step into the community, so you'll still live at the center, you will still do programming at the center, all that kind of stuff, but you'll also your afternoons, your evenings, you'll have the freedom to leave and like go out. And usually the expectation with those sorts of things is you're going to things like meetings or you know, meeting with counselors, or perhaps you might be looking into jobs or volunteering or whatever. But the point is that you still live at the treatment center, you still have the support of the treatment center, but you're also integrating into the community, and then a lot of times treatment centers will then have a third stage, which oftentimes will look something more like a sober home, where you're no longer really in treatment anymore, but you now live in like kind of like what I did, honestly, where you live in like a house that has some level of oversight and certainly has rules around like you know, drug use, people have to maintain sobriety, usually has rules around like you know, you have to attend this number of meetings or other sorts of support groups or whatever, this amount of week and this sort of thing. But otherwise, you're pretty much free, like you know, you you're no longer beholden to any sort of treatment structure. You live in a in sort of like a boarding house with these sorts of rules, and otherwise, you know, you can go to school, work, you know, uh have all you know your own sort of free time and all that kind of stuff.

SPEAKER_00 48:06

So I So it's like it's really like a gradual re-entry of the society.

SPEAKER_02 48:11

And you know, uh my my all my claims will always be kind of like anecdotal in terms of like my experience in terms of like success or you know what works or what doesn't work. But generally speaking, the longer someone is in treatment and the more kind of staged gradual integration there is and supportive integration there is, the more successful they're gonna be, right? Like, like 30-day, it's pretty well known in the treatment world that like a 30-day treatment center is have very low success rates, right? Like, and treatment in general has quite a low success rate. Um it's you know, it's it's really hard for people to, and I, you know, I saw working there, it's it's very hard for people to go from such a controlled, supportive environment. And you know, and treatment is a very, you build a lot of really close relationships in treatment, you know, it's really kind of personal, the people that you're there with, you get to know them super well, uh people get super close, it's very supportive. And so, you know, going from that sort of environment right back to where you started, yeah, you know, most times people are not successful. Yeah, you're tossed in the deep end. No, you're tossed back in the deep end, and even if there is some sort of like follow-up support, like, oh, you need to see a counselor once a week or you're gonna go to meetings or whatever, you know, suddenly all that is all that support that's kind of like enveloped you, you know, the community is kind of gone. And a lot of times the people are returning back into the spaces that they were at before, well, they're returning to the same sorts of issues, right? That that that was related to their substance use, right? Whether that's like you know, difficulties in the relationship or their job or other traumas they have, or you know, whatever stressors, and you know, if it's the same sort of environment, well, like you know, they might know their dealer's phone number, they might know where their dealer lives, or you know what I mean? So you're suddenly you're forced back into this space that was hard to stay sober and in to begin with, or where you were active in your addiction, and you know, so you're thrown from treatment back into that world, the chance your chances aren't very good, and so seeing you know people go from something that's very intensive, like inpatient, and then going like where I work with like something second stage where it's a little more freedom, but still lots of oversight to moving to more freedom, but still some support, and a lot of times those sorts of processes would be like a year long, and you know, from my understanding and my experience of seeing people, the people who take you know, who go and through treatment and treat it like a six-month or a nine-month or a year or even more sort of thing, those people tend to be much more successful. The success rates seem to be much higher than like you know, just like a two-week or a one-month, I'm gonna go to treatment and then I'm gonna come right back to where I was. Though that generally doesn't work out. Um I mean, obviously there's outliers and people that you know do do it successfully, but it's very low, for sure.

SPEAKER_00 51:10

When you uh started working in the downtown East, serving this community, was that at all like triggering for you? Or like did you ever feel like tempted to kind of relapse? Did you ever relapse?

SPEAKER_02 51:22

No. No? No. And um the like the short answer on the um, like I I actually started working in more harm reduction-oriented stuff before I I started working at downtown East Side. So I I was working, um, I went from working in a treatment center to working, I went from working in a treatment center to working in like a low barrier housing supportive um uh supportive unit in a different city. And so I kind of got exposure to working in a place where people were actively using, and that process was um a little bit, I remember being a little bit difficult to begin with, but it was also things had also changed a lot, right? Like by the time I started working in the field, you know, fentanyl was everywhere, heroin's not even a thing anymore, like like you can't even find it, or I bear it, it's very difficult to find. You know, everybody's using fentanyl and and tranquilizers and benzodopes and all this kind of stuff, and methamphetamines and stuff, which was never really my thing. So, like that world was just not very like appealing to me. Um you know, it's yeah, it it it it just I there was some early periods where I think it was a little bit of a struggle kind of being around people using again, but it quit pretty quickly got over that. And frankly, like working in spaces like the downtown side, it's seeing people using and all that kind of stuff, it's not really um particularly like inviting. Yeah. Like it's quite it's pretty intense, it's it's a pretty like intense and like grueling and you know, quite upsetting space and will to be in. And the substances that people are using uh aren't like they don't look to be particularly like enjoyable in many kind of ways. So yeah, it's never really like a huge like oh I feel like I'm gonna use or whatever too. I mean I'll I'll speak freely on the video. You may or may not want to put this in, but like I don't consider myself to be someone who's like totally like sober any like more like I use like cannabis products and stuff like that, and we'll have the occasional drink or whatever. Um but that like that was something that happened like years like I was like totally off everything for like six or seven years, and then like you know, and that and then I've like started using cannabis gummies and those sorts of things, and that's been fine. Um, I one experience, one one thing I've kind of really noticed that I think has some literature to back it up a little bit, again, it's kind of up in the air, is this like do people have more general substance use issues or are people have attraction attractions to particular substances, right? Like, and what I found my personal experience with myself and with other people that I've known is it seems that people seem to be pretty substance specific, right? Like people either are really into down or they're really into like uppers, like cocaine or methamphetamine or whatever. Um, oftentimes those two will kind of overlap. Or like the other big one that I know and I saw a lot work in treatment centers is alcohol. Like people will specifically be into drinking alcohol, and like they've tried other drugs, they've done other stuff, but it doesn't matter, it just doesn't do it for them. It's just right, and same thing with like things like like opioid, and like for me, I certainly think I'm someone where it was like opioids were definitely like that was the kind of thing where it was like you you're either if you're using opioids, like you it's it's either on or it's off. There's no like shifting there. Um not that I would recommend or do like any other like hard substances because I just don't think it's like safe or a good idea for very a large number of reasons. Um but I do think that there tends to be this people tend to be pretty like specific about what they want to do. And even working in the downtown east side, I really saw people, you know, there was definitely people who gravitated really specifically towards say something like meth, or gravitated really specifically to something like even tranquilize or dope. Like that's the only thing they wanted to do, and like they weren't really interested in doing meth or doing crack, or or for example, like, or someone might be really into in like crack is their thing, and that's all they do, right? Um but and so it does seem to be that like that that people have some kind of like that addiction tends to present itself in kind of sub somewhat substance specific kind of manner, at least in what I've experienced both myself and particularly with the people that I serve over the years and work with.

SPEAKER_00 56:08

I uh watched a video recently, and I don't know if there's actually any evidence to back this up, but it makes kind of sense to me. But uh I saw a video that was explaining that people with different um, I guess like personality types are attracted to things. Like, for example, people with ADHD are very attracted to crystal meth because it almost like helps them to focus in. People that are uh very introverted or secluded tend to also like uh like stimulants like crack cocaine or crystal meth because it helps them kind of break free from that uh thing. And uh people with trauma tend to go towards alcohol or opiates because it helps them expand uh kind of expand.

SPEAKER_02 56:50

Yeah, and I think that I think that there's there's you know, I think there's probably a lot of truth to that. And like obviously there's overlap, and polysubstance use is a big thing. Um but it but it also tends to be a big thing within like we'll talk within like the downtown east side, we're talking specifically, like most people in the downtown east side that I would work with, they're using some form of down, and when I say down, that's a generalized term for like some kind of opioid tank benzomix. Now it could be it could be like just fentanyl, it could be heavily on the tranc side, it could be like heavily on the benzo side, but it's usually fentanyl either on its own or mixed with tranquilizers in benzos on some kind of level. Um and on the downtowny side, the vast majority of what people are using, what I would see would be a mix of some down and and side. And side is methane, it's a street term for methamphetamine. Um the I I think though that a lot of times the the methamphetamine is more there to kind of like keep people going. It's almost like kind of like a survival, it's also cheap, it's quite comparatively speaking, it's very inexpensive. And so it kind of like keeps people like awake and alive and moving, especially you're living on the street, like it's sort of like energy, it's sort of like a super energy drink, right? Also suppresses things like appetite stuff, so if you don't have access to food and all that kind of thing, and then the down tends to be more of the like primary focus uh for people, especially people who are deeply like traumatized and stuff you're just saying. But yeah, it's that's the really common one is that at this point is down and side together that people are using now.

SPEAKER_00 58:38

So you mentioned that um you had a gradual uh I guess re-entry to using some alcohol here and there, or cannabis, whether it's got to be.

SPEAKER_03 58:46

I don't like alcohol at all, really. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:48

Um I think like a common theme or uh narrative that is pushed is that cannabis and alcohol can act as kind of like gateway substances. Yeah. You think that there's any truth to that?

SPEAKER_02 59:02

I would say the answer to that now is no. No. I so and I would say that largely because like, um, well, okay, let me talk about cannabis first. I'd say the answer to cannabis now is no.

SPEAKER_03 59:12

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 59:12

Because we're talking here in Vancouver, BC, and cannabis is legal. Yeah. And I think that in most cases, like, I don't, like, I know a lot of, especially like I'm a millennial, I know a lot more millennials that use cannabis products, like on some form of regularity than alcohol. Yeah. Um, and it seems to be much less intrusive and effects of like must have like negative much much less negative effects on like the life and whatever, right? Um now I do think though that if like you're you're rolling the clock back to a time when you're buying cannabis illegally and you're operating with dealers and things like that, there can be some argument to be made for like, well, if you know you're having to buy from drug dealers and you're in that kind of world, well now you're like now you're getting exposure to other substances because you're having to buy from someone who might also sell other stuff or has access to other stuff or whatever. Alcohol, I do think is a little bit different, largely because of the way that alcohol, like people when people drink, what happens, right? Like a really common combination is like alcohol and cocaine, right? Like alcohol is a party drug, people party, like people don't like I'm not I don't go to parties and raves and things like that, but I know people that do. Um, and like you know, alcohol is a big part of that, but also a lot of party drugs are a big part of that. So that's like where people get exposure to things like MDMA or cocaine or whatever, and alcohol also lowers their inhibitions, so like I think people are probably more likely to, you know, if someone's like, hey, you want to do some coke or hey you want to try this pill or whatever and they're already drunk, they're probably more likely to say yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Um and so I think that like it let there's probably some level of argument, but I don't think that either that either one is a particularly like big marker or like you know, like I don't really prescribe to the great gateway drug theory very much at all. Same thing. And I think I think too, like reflecting back on my own childhood, like one of the reasons, or one of my my own experience, one of the reasons I don't prescribe that is because I like knew for myself, and it seemed like a lot of the other youth that I was associating with at the time were all pretty self-motivated to find substances. It wasn't like you're taught in like Dare and all these things where it's like you know, some sketchy kid at school is like, hey man, I'm gonna make you take this as a drug or whatever, right? Like the people like both myself and the other kids that I knew who had ish substance use issues, everyone was pretty personally motivated to find substances and do XYZ, right? So, like I don't think cannabis was the reason that they like did that. I think that there is something about people who have experienced trauma or whatever it might be, or who have just some sort of or some high predilection of substance abuse where like they just instinctually want to push the envelope. And I think a lot of times too that's paired with that sort of like teenage, um adolescent period where you are kind of more impressionable, emotion, like emotionally unstable, you're just you're curious, you're just your decision making is your powers are not as good and all that kind of stuff as well, too, right? So like you're just more apt to make poor choices when you're like you know in that world where like you know you're hanging out with other teens and they're like, hey, you want to try like crack or whatever, and it's like the a teen is more likely to say sure because they're like that badder at making decisions, like it's basically the bottom line, right? Like, and I don't think that it's necessarily like cannabis alcohol that are gonna like um institute those things, and then I also think too that like the most severe cases that I saw of other teens getting involved with substances a lot of times had to do with their environment as well. Like again, it wasn't like cannabis alcohol, it was the fact that like their parents were also addicts, right? Or they had siblings that were using, or like you know, their neighborhood was like really bad, and like like other people using the building with them and all that, and so they just had exposure already to more severe stuff, and that's how they started using it, right? Like, yeah, I that that would be my kind of answer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:23

Well, I want to ask you some more questions about uh what it's like to work in the downtown inside and and serve this community, because I'm sure you have tons of stories, but uh why don't we end this portion of this right now and then we'll continue this in uh part two.