Welcome Bishop John P. Dolan

More Than a Bishop: Why Bishop John Dolan's Story Is One Everyone Should Hear

Some conversations stay with you long after the cameras stop rolling. This is one of them.

When most people hear the title "Bishop," they picture someone standing at the altar, leading Mass, or representing the Catholic Church. What they often don't see is the person behind the title—the child who grew up in a bustling family, the young man searching for purpose, and the human being who has experienced incredible joy alongside unimaginable heartbreak.

That is exactly who you'll meet in this conversation with Bishop John Dolan.

Born and raised in San Diego as one of nine children, Bishop Dolan's story began long before he became the spiritual leader of the Diocese of Phoenix. Like so many of us, he grew up surrounded by family, learned life's lessons through everyday experiences, and slowly discovered that God was calling him to something greater than he could have imagined. His vocation wasn't simply a career choice; it was a journey of listening, trusting, and saying yes, even when he couldn't see where that path would lead.

One of the things I loved most about this interview is that we didn't begin with theology or titles. We started with childhood. We talked about growing up in a large family, favorite movies, funny memories, and the experiences that shaped him long before he wore a bishop's cross. Those moments reminded me that every person we admire has a story that began in ordinary ways, and it's often those ordinary moments that prepare us for extraordinary lives.

As the conversation unfolds, Bishop Dolan shares what it actually means to discern a calling to the priesthood. For those who aren't Catholic—or who have always wondered how someone becomes a priest—he offers a refreshingly honest look into that journey. We talk about when he first sensed God calling him, the people who influenced his faith, the challenges of formation, and the moments that confirmed he was exactly where he was meant to be.

We also explore questions many people have about the Catholic Church today. Bishop Dolan speaks candidly about misconceptions surrounding Catholicism, what he wishes people better understood about the Church, and how he approaches conversations with those who feel hurt, skeptical, or disconnected from their faith. We discuss leadership, the role of bishops, and the importance of meeting people where they are with compassion rather than judgment.

Of course, we couldn't resist asking about his experiences in Rome and the Vatican. He shares stories that reveal the humanity behind these extraordinary experiences, reminding us that even in places rich with history and tradition, there are moments of humor, surprise, and awe that make us all feel a little more connected.

As meaningful as those conversations are, the heart of this episode lies in Bishop Dolan's extraordinary openness about grief and mental health. He courageously shares the devastating reality of losing multiple members of his own family to suicide, including his brother Tom, his sisters Mary and Therese, and his brother-in-law Joe. Rather than allowing those tragedies to define him, he chose to transform his pain into purpose.

Out of his own experience, Bishop Dolan founded the Office of Mental Health Ministry in the Diocese of Phoenix, recognizing that many people struggling with mental illness or profound grief need both spiritual care and practical support. His vision has created a ministry rooted in education, accompaniment, advocacy, and the belief that no one should ever feel alone in their suffering. It is one of the most compassionate and forward-thinking ministries in the Catholic Church today.

Throughout our conversation, we move beyond discussing faith as an idea and instead explore what faith looks like in real life—when prayers seem unanswered, when grief feels unbearable, when hope is difficult to find, and when healing takes longer than expected. Bishop Dolan offers wisdom that isn't rooted in easy answers but in lived experience. His message is one of presence, compassion, resilience, and the reminder that healing often begins when someone simply chooses to walk beside us.

What struck me most during this interview was not Bishop Dolan's position, but his humility. He leads with kindness, listens with empathy, and speaks openly about subjects that many people still find difficult to discuss. Whether he's talking about his childhood, his vocation, the future of the Church, or mental health, there is a sincerity that makes this conversation feel deeply personal.

You do not have to be Catholic to connect with this episode. You don't even have to consider yourself religious. At its core, this conversation is about purpose, loss, hope, healing, and discovering how our greatest challenges can become opportunities to serve others. It's about learning that strength is not found in pretending we have all the answers but in being willing to share our stories and walk with one another through life's most difficult moments.

My hope is that you'll leave this episode feeling encouraged, inspired, and reminded that even in our darkest seasons, there is always room for hope. Bishop John Dolan's story is ultimately a story about choosing compassion over fear, service over self, and hope over despair. I truly believe it is a conversation everyone can learn from, and I am honored to share it with you.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:27

People. Hey Lan, are we good? We're good. Okay, so we're clap in. Ready? One, two, three, clap. Good to all. Okay. All right. Okay, today's guest is someone I've really been looking forward to sitting down with. He's a bishop, yes, but before anything else, he's a human being with a powerful story of fake loss, a calling, and compassion. Bishop John Dolan grew up in San Diego in a big Catholic family, one of nine kids, long before he ever imagined leading a diocese. His journey took him from parish life and decades of ministry in Southern California to becoming the bishop of Phoenix, where he's now leading one of the fastest-growing dioceses in the country. What really moved me about Bishop Dolan is how honest and personal he is about the things that shaped him, including for profound loss, mental health advocacy, and the moments where faith wasn't theoretical, but something he clung to for survival. Today we're going to talk about all of it, how he grew up, the fun and human side of being a bishop, stories from Vatican, and what people might have wrong about Catholicism. So I am so excited to dive deep into who he is and all the work he's done in his passion project and his mission to help people with mental health. I'm so grateful to have you on. Thank you so much. Okay, we're gonna start from now. Okay, let's hop on. Um, what was it like growing up in a big family?

SPEAKER_03 2:11

Oh well, it was it was the life of a lot of hand-me-downs, even though I was number seven in a in a family of nine, so I got most of the hand-me downs. Um, I was the youngest boy, so I got all the the the boy hand me downs. Uh that was fun. We spent a lot of time camping. We were uh you know active churchgoers, we were doing all of the things that every uh every kid would uh do little league and uh playing in the park, making making forts in our canyon where we grew up. Yeah, so it was it was all very kind of kind of a nice like Sam Lot style family.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

It's fun, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:49

And in San Diego, and in San Diego, yeah. So we were at the beach virtually uh every day during the summer and then tried to sneak out of school to go and surf during the that's so cool.

SPEAKER_01 3:01

That's really fun. Um, what's one story from your childhood that your siblings still tease you about today?

SPEAKER_03 3:09

Well, I used to kind of pick on my younger sisters and uh grab their dolls and uh throw them up on the the clothes line or the uh the the the wow the lines, the power lines. That was they did they was really mean. Uh but uh they uh yeah, they had these these drow these uh dolls called drowsies, and uh they were up there on the power lines forever, and uh so they lost them. So about oh, about five years ago, I decided to get them some drowsies for their for Christmas present. They were adult women by this time, but they were just so thrilled.

SPEAKER_01 3:49

Very sweet, but also you must have had some talent to get them up on the power line.

SPEAKER_03 3:54

It's just we put them. I I can't it was uh I tied them up to something and threw them up there. Excuse me.

SPEAKER_01 4:00

No, Terry, right, but also very funny. That's the stuff that makes your childhood so wonderful, though, and colorful, you know. What is your favorite movie? And can you give me a few of them?

SPEAKER_03 4:12

Uh, sure. Well, I I liked um in the seminary time, there was a movie that came out with uh Geraldine Page called A Trip to Bountiful. It was a wonderful movie about her trying to escape her her uh family uh as an older woman, and she wanted to go back to her roots where she grew up in Bountiful, and uh, and then she discovers that in essence uh it isn't the same, and so she realizes that you know looking back to the past doesn't necessarily catch you uh you know where you really are meant to be. Yeah, and it's uh but uh yeah, um other than that, I mean, gosh, all the wonderful things, ET and so yeah, the things those are good movies, heartwarming style movies.

SPEAKER_01 5:01

Such good movies well for me, I was really young. E.T. was very scary for me.

SPEAKER_03 5:06

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:07

Oh my gosh, I was so young. So I I remember being terrified. Like Thriller was terrifying to me too. Like we learned a lot, yeah. Like Michael Jackson music videos.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

Yeah, yeah, you were you were I was gone. Oh, yeah, I totally get it.

SPEAKER_01 5:23

It was scary, yeah. You know, um okay. If you weren't a bishop, what job would you want to be doing? I guess and have you thought about that?

SPEAKER_03 5:32

Oh, I had, yeah. I mean, um, when I was, of course, when I was a kid, I um I worked at a um an ice cream uh shop, 31 flavors or basket robots. Absolutely, and the best part about it was that no one else, uh you know, anyone going into an ice cream shop, they were happy. So they weren't complaining. It wasn't fast food like some of my other friends had. And I thought, man, this would be a really good job.

SPEAKER_01 5:59

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 6:00

But it's cool in every way.

SPEAKER_01 6:02

Yeah. I actually worked um in Monterey. What my parents we moved from my dad's job, and I worked at an ice cream shop. And you know, that whole thing of like you're gonna get so tired of ice cream. I was like, there's no way. It's true.

SPEAKER_03 6:15

So the nice thing about 31 flavors is you have different layers. You can only get tired of one ice cream at a time.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

Yeah, for 31 days. That's right. Every month you get tired. Exactly. That's funny. Um, okay. So, what is one thing about you that people would be shocked to learn, like a favorite hobby? Or I guess um, I don't even know, just like a ridiculous fear or anything like that.

SPEAKER_03 6:40

Yeah, well, I would say uh people are always kind of amazed when I tell them I run.

SPEAKER_04 6:45

You do?

SPEAKER_03 6:46

They look at me and they go, You run? My age and my weight, and we really find that.

SPEAKER_01 6:53

But but I people's faces really do sometimes just hurt you. They do, even if they don't say it, just their look, their perplexity.

SPEAKER_03 7:03

And admittedly, I run like a turtle, but but it's okay. I'm doing so.

SPEAKER_01 7:07

Tell me about that. So you love running.

SPEAKER_03 7:09

I do, um, because I hate walking even more, so I want to get it done.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

That's a really great answer to why you hoped to run. Are you like a speed walker?

SPEAKER_03 7:22

I am. I could be a speed walker and uh and I'll whatever I can do to get that just exercise done. I just want to get it. I just want to get it done.

SPEAKER_01 7:32

Do you like have you tried pickleball or anything like that?

SPEAKER_03 7:35

No, no, I've never, I don't think I would know even well. I guess it's probably like uh I don't know what even the rules to it.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, it's really fun by the way. It is because it's not necessarily I'm oh please, all the pickleball people don't come for me right now, but it's not it's not as hard as tennis to me. Yeah, so and it's constant, yeah. It's necessarily. I didn't know Bishop Um Navarres loves tennis.

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Is it right? I know I did not know that. I know. Well now, I'll have to check.

SPEAKER_01 8:04

Um, when was the first time he felt the tiniest tug towards your Catholic faith?

SPEAKER_03 8:10

Oh, the tiniest tug toward my, you know, I'll probably as a little child toward the Catholic faith in general, as a child, and it was really a lot of it was being formed by my family, and I just loved hanging out with my dad, especially. He would uh you know, drag us to uh to daily mass. And after a while, you didn't you just went uh because it was nice to hang out with dad, you know. And so I think that was kind of a part of it in my earliest years of eventually just going on my own and and just enjoying that. So I think it was kind of built into me. It was kind of a a sus uh a nice sustainable thing that happened in my young I love that younger life.

SPEAKER_01 8:55

What was the moment that you felt a calling to priesthood?

SPEAKER_03 8:59

Well, there are there are a number of uh things, but uh probably the most identifiable was when I was in the um uh I was I had blown my shoulders out in wrestling, uh, and that was the big thing for me as a wrestler in high school. And when I couldn't wrestle any longer, my there was my sister Mary who said, Hey, why don't you uh uh join our youth group at the parish and get involved in our our um uh retreat. And so after that retreat, I was really moved and uh deeply uh called to to the Lord and uh in a deeper way than ever before. And um shortly uh after that, uh the associate pastor at my parish says, Have you ever thought of joining the priesthood? And he signed me up for a uh vocation retreat. And so I went on the retreat, and after that I said, Yeah, let's let's do it. And uh I entered shortly after that retreat. Uh so when people say, you know, how uh you know how how this happened, I say in some ways it had a lot to do with the uh wrestling injury.

SPEAKER_01 10:12

So interesting. Okay, tell us about you wrestling. So, how long did you wrestle for and where did you get that passion?

SPEAKER_03 10:18

Uh uh, well, yeah, my older brother Tom was wrestling, and so um I just kind of thought I kind of looked up to him and I said, This seems like a nice thing to do in high school, and um, so I did. And the nice thing about wrestling is you wrestle according to way versus say football or something, it you know, you you have to be pretty big. And I was not, I was scrawny. I was scrawny then, really scrawny at a short guy, and all of a sudden I grew up like just crazy. I'm 6'2 now, and my weight is nothing what it was when I was in high school, but I wrestled at a particular weight, and so I really enjoyed it and uh you know bought my shoes, therefore, I my wrestling shoes, so therefore I was committed. Yeah, once you buy something, you have to stay with it. Yes, kind of what happened, and I really enjoyed it.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

How long did you do it for?

SPEAKER_03 11:14

Oh, uh freshman through junior, junior college and or junior uh high school, and then I uh that's when I blew my both my shoulders out. Well, yeah, well, that kind of goes back to the vocation story. So uh so uh it was it was it was during the summertime, and uh we were at the boys club, and anyone could wrestle there, older guys and so on as well. And so I was sparring with this older guy, and we were um throwing, you know, practicing throwing, and uh he kind of tripped up, and so I tried to catch him and catch myself, and I blew my shoulder. I mean, uh dislocated and um I dislocated my shoulder, another shoulder uh a couple weeks later. It was really bad. So uh anyway, um, so again, going back to the vocation story, I when people say, How were you called? And I say, Well, an old man threw me.

SPEAKER_01 12:14

That's actually so funny. Um, you know, something I really love about the Catholic Church is just the way that they the reverence for Mary and just the way that they um highlight women. I think it's just incredible, honestly. I know that um, and I feel like our world maybe is shifting a little bit right now. Um, but I know that for a long time there's a lot of concerns about Catholicism. And uh I think around trust, transparency. Um, what do you wish that people knew or understood about the church?

SPEAKER_03 12:53

Well, just you know, that lead uh uh regarding Mary, just that alone, I think would be a very important thing. You know, they uh uh I think of course women are are um are unique in this, and that of course we're all made in God's image and likeness. So we're like uh living icons, living images of God, right? Yeah um and and a woman is in that wonderful privileged place where she is not only the um image and likeness of God, but she is carrying for nine months another living image and likeness of God, which is pretty darn profound. Yeah, and when it comes to Mary though, Mary was different in that she gave us not only uh a mirror image of God, of God Himself, God became one with us. So when we speak of Mary as mother of God, it simply means Mary as as a mother in a unique way versus mothers who are who carry the image and likeness of God, yeah, you know, in within their womb. Yeah, she actually carried God become man with us, yeah. The most unusual person.

SPEAKER_01 14:12

It is so true. I do feel like that's interesting. I really do think people don't understand the reverence you have for women, yeah. The church, and I really I'm so grateful for that. Um, what do you think people have what is their biggest misconception about being a priest or being a bishop that you think that people have?

SPEAKER_03 14:32

A misconception. Well, I think part of it is that people might seem to think, unlike this wonderful uh conversation we're having about my family life, that priests sort of drop out of the sky, you know?

SPEAKER_02 14:45

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 14:46

They come from little planet Xenon and they're here they land, and now they're running a show, you know, yeah, uh being pastors. But in truth, we're living a life like virtually everyone, yeah. And we're just kind of called to a deeper, uh more uh direct uh work with God you know, can exclude marriage or family life and so on, but it's to be about proclaiming the gospel in a profound way, in a way that is doesn't have the distractions that say Mary.

SPEAKER_01 15:24

Yes. I think it's confuse I think it is because I think if you feel super incredibly called to being a mom or dad or um or you want to get married, I think to think that somebody would say, I'm gonna forgo that for my faith, is it's to me, I think it's incredible and it's so admirable. But I think that people think it must just be easy to make that decision.

SPEAKER_03 15:49

Well, it it it's it's all anything is easy to you know, it's easy to make a decision, uh, in some ways. It's it's harder to live it out. You know, people can make a choice, but if there's no behavior behind backing that up, and so I was blessed in many ways, uh, you know, having had a few, you know, uh uh female friends in in high school. And uh uh in essence, I was I was uh given the blessings of just kind of living a good celibate life. And so uh that helped, you know. Yeah, but the behavior was there before the decision.

SPEAKER_01 16:28

Yeah, that makes sense.

SPEAKER_03 16:29

Yeah, yeah. It's harder for someone who doesn't have that um yeah behavior behind them. Oh my gosh, like so if they were like if they were in intimate relationships and then they had uh an awakening to become a priest, or that would be a completely different it it is different, and so as as we look for guys who are interested in the possibility of priesthood or some religious uh women interested in sisterhood, that you know, we do try to urge them to have a um you know, a good, healthy, kind of a chaste life before they move into that uh role. So they have to have some behavior, some years even to kind of get to a place where they can say, Yeah, I can make a true rational choice to yeah, that's healthy though.

SPEAKER_01 17:16

Yeah, that's smart. Um, what do you think? Um, did you ever have doubts when you were going and when you were becoming a priest and then getting called to become a bishop? And did you ever have doubts?

SPEAKER_03 17:28

Oh, sure. Yeah, those those doubts it did, yeah. Especially when I again, as I was going through the seminary, uh, even it's easy to make the decision, but the decision doesn't mean that those doubts aren't gonna be there. So you're you're you're still wondering, gosh, maybe I maybe I should leave, maybe I could get married, maybe I could go back and into the dating scene and so on. So those do happen while in the seminary, and that's all part of the formation process because you gotta really it takes roughly nine years. I came in right out of high school, and so uh in my case it was eight years, but um so yeah, that was uh it was uh it was I was um going back and forth on a number of those uh things, but the later years were easier because I was a little more committed in that direction.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

That's interesting. Well, so what advice would you give to somebody who has doubt then in their life?

SPEAKER_03 18:30

Well, don't shy away from doubt. Doubt is is an important piece of of anyone's life. You'd doubt is doubt is a way of us testing um positively testing where uh what our next move might be. That's okay. It's okay to doubt. It's not it, but if we get stifled by that or we get paralyzed by doubt, then that's gonna be a bit of a problem. But I think that is true for vocations, to say the priesthood or religious life, or to virtually anything.

SPEAKER_01 19:07

I think bully, even a job or correct, yeah. Um, what do you say to people who feel spiritually disconnected, unsure, or even skeptical of the church?

SPEAKER_03 19:20

Well, I think uh it it's probably the same, I'd probably be the same answer that I would get about people who are skeptical, skeptical about God too. Um it's sometimes it's best to really examine what is your understanding of the church or what is your understanding of God and is that a correct understanding? So really if you're if you've been kind of conditioned to think of God in this one particular way, then what about um expanding your horizons and seeing God in other ways? Is is there a another way to look at God? The same thing would apply to church. If you've been conditioned to think that the church is this or that, challenge yourself to expand your horizons to see what the church really is. Otherwise, it acknowledges everything.

SPEAKER_01 20:17

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's so good. Um, you've been to the Vatican.

SPEAKER_03 20:21

I have, yes.

SPEAKER_01 20:23

What's a story that you've never shared about being there? Something funny, surprising.

SPEAKER_03 20:28

Um a story that I've never shared. Well, I'll just share the one of the more recent stories. I was there uh for a mental health uh worldwide mental health conference, uh speaking on suicidality uh across the the world and how it, but anyway, while I was there, um, you know, I met the Pope. And so a number of people they've been saying or asking, uh, what was he like? Uh, you know, what was where where did you meet and all of that? And I say, Oh, yeah, I had a two and a half hour uh one-on-one meeting with him, and then I say, I bet actually it was only 45 seconds, but uh uh yeah, it's it's not a it's you know, he's a bit he's a busy man and he meets a lot of people, as you can imagine. Yeah, um uh but uh at this particular time it was just like a little meet and greet.

SPEAKER_01 21:18

Right, yeah. Um, have you ever gotten lost in the in Lispatican balls?

SPEAKER_03 21:22

Uh no, uh no, because either I was on a tour or I was going directly to uh a mass or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 21:29

And but you could get lost.

SPEAKER_03 21:31

Oh, sure. I mean anything that I get now in Rome itself, trying just to navigate within the ancient Rome, uh, you can get lost.

SPEAKER_01 21:40

It's um have you ever met somebody unexpectedly at the Vatican?

SPEAKER_03 21:45

Um uh let's see. Now not not at St. Peter's, but in Rome again. I was walking down one of those beautiful quaint Italian uh you know alleyways, you know. Over they have. And uh all of a sudden I saw Liam Neeson, and he was they were having a of uh they were shooting one of his scenes uh from one of the well, I forget what it was, but it was really fascinating. I was kind of there and I took out my camera like I was gonna take a picture, and they went, You may not do that.

SPEAKER_01 22:19

And then he looked up at you and he said, I'm gonna fight you and I'm gonna kill you.

SPEAKER_04 22:24

That's right. Exactly. That's right. That's right. What was that?

SPEAKER_03 22:28

Take it, take it, take it, take it, yes. Like, then you got got to make it put it away. It wasn't that movie, but it was the sequel to it. So you're right, that's probably right.

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah, you know why it was one of my favorite movies. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:43

There you go.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

So good. Because I'm a mom and I'm a mom of bearing. Oh, that's the worst like that would be me. One thousand. I wish I well, with his expertise, you know. Yeah, but that was such a cool line when he's just like I'm gonna smile. And I like yeah, you're you're dead, yeah. So you know what? He's he's a secretive dude. We just found that out. He doesn't want anyone filming him in Rome near the Vatican. You're like, listen, dude, you're in my space. Exactly. Um, what was the moment that you were in Rome where you thought, uh, wow, I cannot believe this is my life.

SPEAKER_03 23:22

Uh yeah. I mean, I I was I was sitting uh with Pope Francis, and that that was a longer, that was actually uh a longer period of time uh with what we call an ad limina, it means to the ends of the earth. And the Pope calls the the bishops from different parts of the world to come usually every five years for this ad limina visit. And uh there we were with our region of bishops uh in California when I was in California, and there I was talking uh with the Pope, and uh that moment um it it was I was uh deeply moved because I was sharing my story about mental health-related issues in our family. And as I was doing that, I noticed myself kind of shaking. Um, I was just really particularly moved and nervous, and and I don't know why I was nervous, but that created even more nerves for me. You know, when you think about being nervous, you become even more nervous. So uh there was that. Um, but he was nothing but a Joan to me during that. So yeah, that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_01 24:30

Um, that actually leads me to the next question. Um, I just um I'm so moved by your story. Um, so sorry about what's happened in your family.

SPEAKER_02 24:40

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Can you talk about the loss that you've dealt with in your family?

SPEAKER_03 24:46

Yeah, well, I've been doing that, and I always encourage people to do that. It's like when it's it's a wound, and if we don't talk about it, it's gonna fester. It's like uh if you just bandage it up and you don't treat it, retreat, yeah, treat the bandage or change the bandage, uh, it's just gonna fester. And uh so the more I talk about it, the easier it is for me. Uh, you know, the first time a course I did was like you're swallowing and cheering up, but you're also just nervous. You become nervous, which is an interesting thing because there's levels of shame that uh people carry with them. I have no shame anymore. Um I mean, I'm not ashamed uh to say that uh I lost uh three siblings through suicide and more, but it it still boggles my mind, but but you still it's it's important to do that to talk about it.

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So important. Okay, so can you dive deeper into how like and the I guess how many years it was between and how old you were?

SPEAKER_03 25:53

So I was uh going into eighth grade when my talk, my brother Tong died. I think he was 19 years old. Um uh he died by suicide in prison. He went off on a uh binge with a friend of his, and uh they got themselves uh locked up in prison in Chino, California. And uh he was there for maybe three months. Uh we went and made a visit to him, and he was quite apologetic and humbled and all of that. Um, but then shortly after he he had hanged himself there in prison. And all of that was just very upsetting for us because again, we're a good Catholic family. We but and we loved him deeply. Uh, that was the one piece. Um, and and how do you deal with that as an eighth grade?

SPEAKER_01 26:41

Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:42

Okay, you know.

SPEAKER_01 26:43

Um uh how do you feel like you did deal with that?

SPEAKER_03 26:47

Well, not well. I I I as you know, in hindsight. Uh having said that, you know, there's it God gives you lemons, you make lemonade, and I think God was helping to make that me to make that lemonade. So, I mean, in essence, as I said, my brother Tom was a wrestler, so therefore I became a wrestler and in high school. Uh, so after eighth grade, I went into high school, got right into wrestling, and I wanted to be even better than him. He was a junior, uh junior varsity, I became a varsity wrestler. Right. He was into rock climbing, I became uh an even greater rock climber. He was in bowling, I got into bowling and got trophies and all of that. So I was like super overachieving, maybe I don't know, perhaps to kind of be a little bit of a savior for my family, you know. But I wasn't thinking of that, you know, in the fore of my mind. It was sort of something happening as I was growing up and trying to mature. Uh um, and you know, I think again, that may have been had some part in my wanting to become a priest, and I had to wrestle with that. Then maybe I'm not. I shouldn't have been a priest because you know, I was joining the seminary maybe for the wrong reason. But again, God has this wonderful way of taking lemons and making lemonade out of that. And so after that, uh then I was in the seminary and in my so uh my uh junior um uh year in in in uh in college, and uh my sister Therese and her husband both died by suicide as we were waiting for them for Thanksgiving. Um so they were to arrive uh and they never did. So uh that was devastating. That was a a very um devastating moment.

SPEAKER_01 28:44

Um can I ask you how old were they?

SPEAKER_03 28:48

Therese, I think, was 27, and he was in his 30s. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:54

Um and both of them?

SPEAKER_03 28:56

They were yes. He um the so she uh died the day before on things uh the day before Thanksgiving. The coroner went to him, uh, or the police went to him and said that uh she had died, so uh they were gonna go to my parents uh and he said, No, let me do that. And he couldn't do it. No, so he died by suicide, yeah. And then um, yeah, so that was that's when it was really starting to dawn on us that maybe there was this wasn't just a situational thing that happened for with my brother Tom, that maybe there was something else happening in our family life, or the very least, it was kind of a copycat thing, you know, which can often happen in siblings' lives, you know, that they kind of copy what happened to, you know.

SPEAKER_01 29:50

I heard that too.

SPEAKER_03 29:51

Yeah, I'm not sure if that's necessarily true. Uh it can happen for people who might be more susceptible to um the kind of depressive states, you know. And I I think it's pretty true in our family that we've all had experiences of uh depression. And and then in in truth, yeah, we've had other family members who have considered the possibility. And then my my my sister, Mary, most recently, um oh three years ago, um uh died by suicide, but she had attempted multiple times, so we just we knew it wasn't a matter of if, but rather when. Oh good, yes, it was a long, but each case it's it's interesting, it hits you in different ways, yeah, all the way through. And as you mature, as you grow older, um as devastating as it was for me to lose my younger sister Mary of just recently, three years ago, um it it didn't paralyze me in the way or trigger me in the way that uh the other ones had I was younger, yeah. Yeah. Um, and again, because I was already starting to speak about this, and I knew that by uh opening that wound and couldn't having conversations about this, I would uh get to a better place of healing.

SPEAKER_01 31:18

That's so interesting. I'm so sorry, my goodness.

SPEAKER_03 31:21

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Um, your heart to help people in this space in pain is so beautiful, and I'm so grateful for what you're doing. But right now, if you could give advice to somebody who is in absolute pain, what advice would she take in?

SPEAKER_03 31:41

Well, to those who are actually in their personal pain and wondering and doubting whether life is worth living, the answer to that would be it is. It is uh life is worth living, and there's even in the midst of that pain, uh there's a a need to find joy. So from scripture, my my bishop's motto, every bishop gets a motto, and my motto is abide in my love, is what Jesus has in Matthew or uh the Gospel of John. And and in that he says, uh, he says, uh, abide in my love, and if you abide in my love, you will have joy, and your joy will be complete. And that word, that in that case, that joy, that word, just like love, when Jesus says, abide in my love, that love that he is referring to is called a gap love. It's a self-donating, self-sacrificial love, as he did. He laid down a slide for us. So he says, abide in that kind of love. If you abide in that self-sacrifice, self-sacrificial love and that love of pain and passion, if you abide in that form of love, then you're gonna have another kind of joy that is not an ecstatic joy, it's a sustained, and the the word they use is kara in in in Greek, and it means it's a sustained or eternal joy.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Um and who doesn't want that?

SPEAKER_03 33:15

Correct. Who doesn't want that? Even in the midst of pain, yes, even in the midst of sorrow, uh life is worth living if you can abide in that love, that kind of love, you just accept the reality that life throws us a lot of you know uh hardballs, not softballs. And when we there when we have that and then we accept that reality, then um and embrace that form of love that Christ understood by dying on the cross. If we accept that, then we're gonna have a different kind, we have to then search for what kind of joy is that gonna bring me. And it's that eternal joy that he brings to us when he rises from the dead, shows us shows his wounds, right? They're not gone, but it's an eternal joy, a glorified joy.

SPEAKER_01 34:08

Grief is not linear, that is correct. And what advice would you have for somebody who's dealing with immense loss? Yeah, I guess also to piggyback on that, how long healing takes? Because I feel it's a lot of people, that's the biggest thing. It's like, I don't I don't want to feel this pain right now. So they're running, so they're either self-medicating or busy then busying themselves or whatever, but not feel the pain. But if we don't sit with it, it creeps up on us, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:39

Yes, so meditation is an absolute necessity. It's not just about about getting up and and saying our just formal prayers or and just going right to scripture. Sometimes it just means being quiet and resting with a word like love or with joy or so and just resting with it and maybe taking that word and just focusing on that word for the entire week.

SPEAKER_01 35:05

Can you walk us through how you dealt with that loss, the pain of it?

SPEAKER_03 35:10

Uh sure. Um it depends it on the other parts of my life, you know. So like I the more recent one. So with my sister Mary, again, uh having the the conversations about it, talking about it. I've been on virtually um oh, I've been off a lot in the media uh because of this, but also with it's I'm on the speaking circuit, you know, so I talk about it a lot. Um, but for those who don't have that opportunity, I would say still talk about it with friends and so on. Um and it, you know, that it decreases that level of shame. Um and the other is that uh go to the quiet, just find that quiet time and focus on something that is not hard but beautiful, and uh focus on a word, uh even the word beauty, just focus on that, you know. Um but it it's a kind of a meditative act that really slows the heart, slows the mind, and uh gives permission uh to God to um be a part of our our journey and our pain.

SPEAKER_01 36:27

Yeah, I love that. Um how long people always want to put a timeline on healing.

SPEAKER_03 36:36

Yeah, there's a there is no timeline for that, of course. Um, but there can be some wonderful uh steps that people can take that are through like group grouping, like in our office for mental health ministry in the Diocese of Phoenix, uh, we have uh these accompaniment sessions. And those accompaniment sessions can um be just general uh opportunities for people to talk about what's going on in their life, or it can have sort of benchmark uh um sessions, which uh can help a person move along. But even still, there is it's always understood that there's no final time when you're gonna stop grieving, you know. Yeah. Oh no, I still, you know, even I love my sister Mary, she was my good best friend as a as a child, and uh I'll I'll never uh stop missing her. But but you also want to live. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:38

That's really great. What made you realize that the church needed a dedicated mental health ministry?

SPEAKER_03 37:44

Um, well, partly it, you know, once I you most of us uh speak from experience, right? So if we've it and the way in which we kind of move in in the direction of God, it's gonna be very experiential. So um this is one way I I found it was necessary. And there was a sense there, it was it was it was a piece that was lacking, not only in our church, but also in society. So even our mental health ministry has an advocacy component where we try to encourage the state and the county to kind of up the game on getting more counselors and and so on.

SPEAKER_01 38:23

So good.

SPEAKER_03 38:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:24

So important. Um, what does the ministry actually look like in the parish? So, how do people seek out help?

SPEAKER_03 38:32

Uh so it's in the parish, um it's it's predominantly an advocacy process. Um, but typically if a person is coming through the office and they're just they're they're having some struggles, they're going to assess through uh a whole process that we have called us uh mental health uh first aid. So those in the front office or priests now go through a whole uh battery of uh classes on uh the science of mental health so that they're able to determine what is what is what's going on in in this person's life. And are there any red flags? And then can we move that person into immediate assistance by you know um uh you know referring them to a counselor, or maybe it's just grief, and then we bring them into an accompaniment session where they uh will be communicating with other people who are sharing the same kind of grief. When you start sharing the same feelings and sharing emotions, you realize you're not alone. Yes, yes, and that just makes a big difference. So important. So we have these what we call wells, as in Jesus met the woman at the well, and from well comes wellness. You know, she left that bucket after that conversation, and that's the idea is you have that conversation, and maybe after that conversation you feel just a little bit better about yourself to move on and live as God wants you to live.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Oh, I love that because I do feel like right now, especially in our world, it's very divided and it's very lonely.

SPEAKER_04 40:15

Correct.

SPEAKER_01 40:16

And so I especially in pain. Yeah, and like you said, and there's a lot of shame wrapped around the subject of suicide. Right, but there is around divorce, there is around lots of things that people are dealing with daily. That's correct, and that shame is sourced, it's sourced, it's that that dark space none of us need to be in.

SPEAKER_03 40:37

That's right, and often shame is just in when we is shame and isolation uh are two bare very bad things. If you feel as though you're walking in the shame all by yourself and not hearing that other people are doing the uh having some of the same experience, you think of like AA, yeah. You go to an AA program and you say, I'm an alcoholic, and you realize that all the other people in that room are alcoholics, you're you're gonna be able to open up even more.

SPEAKER_01 41:08

Totally.

SPEAKER_03 41:08

Because now it's a shared experience, it's not an isolated experience.

SPEAKER_01 41:12

And I mean, to to add to that, it's just that everybody's dealing with something.

SPEAKER_02 41:18

That's true.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

So we're I mean, and it's hard with social media because everybody's lives look perfect.

SPEAKER_02 41:24

Right.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

And so, and no, no, none of our lives are perfect. Um what have you seen since launching it that has moved you the most? Since launching your ministry, that's moved you the most.

SPEAKER_03 41:36

Um uh uh the diocesan level here in Phoenix, I would say I was moved most by some of our advocacy for uh getting the county to kind of up the game on counselors and uh more beds uh for uh people who are struggling with mental health. So our others at Valley Wise Hospital was able to uh increase their beds by twofold, uh which was great. And then um in addition to that, we have uh been working with the hospital uh the um prison and uh establishing um these uh mental health uh ministry with these wells, if you will, in the prisons so that the the people can speak to each other, some of the prisoners, and especially those who are gonna come that could be coming back into the main frame of of society, so that they will have they'll be able to uh have addressed some of the issues that they've had dealt that that kind of brought them into put them in the prison in the first place.

SPEAKER_01 42:46

So that's really incredible. If somebody is struggling right now with their mental health, how can they get how can they reach out to you guys and get help?

SPEAKER_03 42:55

Well, the parishes have uh the opportunities to to do that. That's why we wanted to get them out into the parishes because it's in the in the neighborhoods, it's it's with the parishes are found in neighborhoods. So that's the first thing. It's not like one-stop shop here at the diocese, it's it's it's all over the parts. Uh, but it if they were to reach out to the diocese of Phoenix, we would also then point them in the direction of those parishes, but they could also point them, that we point them in the direction of uh counselors uh specifically. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:29

That's so great.

SPEAKER_03 43:30

And we've met the counselors to make sure that they're you know their uh uh credits are you know up to speed and they they're certified and all of that stuff.

SPEAKER_01 43:39

I just love that you're doing this. This is so great. Um after everything you've lived through, what does hope mean to you today?

SPEAKER_03 43:48

Well, hope is a it uh hope is a very important piece in in uh in the field of psychology. Uh if a person is struggling, say, with PTSD. And they're just they're just like having a very difficult time just tracking in their daily life uh a counselor for PTSD patients. Their primary thing is for the the patient to identify um some benchmark with hope. So like what do you hope for? Because that shows that they're they're starting to track. So hope is an essential piece. And I think that's uh no, this you know, this uh we're speaking at least at this time, I don't know when this goes out, but it in a season of hope, it's a season of advent. And it's it's a wonderful uh virtue um where we tr we hope and uh uh but our hope isn't in vain because hope is is looking for something. You wouldn't look for something unless you knew that your previous hopes were attainable, that that you achieved something. So um it's my hope that we're going to be able to achieve some really good things in in this mental health ministry. Our goal right now is to establish um a cohort of counselors through the University of Mariana, Bismarck, uh, North Dakota. They're they're here in Phoenix, they have a satellite here in Phoenix, and so we're working together to reduce the the cost of tuition for counselors so that we can get more counselors out there. Well, I think that's a good thing. And I believe, and I believe that is gonna, I think we're gonna get to goal on that.

SPEAKER_01 45:40

That's incredible. I can't wait to watch that. Yeah, um, I do love that because I'm a pastor's kid growing up in the church. So growing up in the church, I feel like mental health was that conversation is deeply shy to leave from right because it's like the more you pray, the more committed you are to God, just all those things, then you shouldn't struggle in these areas. And so I I love what you're doing, but did you did you notice that as well growing up?

SPEAKER_03 46:08

Yes. And and I think I I learned pretty quickly that oh no, there, you know, I was trained by some wonderful religious sisters who who focused in in grade school and who focused on faith and science work together. Oh, yeah. And that they that they don't have to fight against each other. So the science of psychology and the science of and the theology, which is another form of science, it's a study of God. Theology is a study of God. So that the two can work to the same end, who is God, and God is, you know, and God for us. So um they don't have to wrestle or fight against each other. Sometimes there's a little bit of tension, but for the most part, they they're both are spirit-driven if we accept that. And I think uh the the uh it's it's it for just saying let's pray and just pray about hard enough that everything's gonna be okay. That I'm I'm not certain that's gonna be the whole of it. Yeah, our spirituality is actually greater than our prayer. Spirituality includes our physical life, our emotional, relational life, our intellectual life, um, you know, all of that. Um yeah, and our prayer life. You know, prayer isn't the only thing.

SPEAKER_01 47:28

That's so true. That's really good. Um, somebody right now, if they were carrying um a battle with mental health, what is your best advice to your guy?

SPEAKER_03 47:39

Uh if they're if they're really struggling with uh a real battle of mental health, uh, that could be so many different things. But let's say it's if it's behavioral health like alcoholism, well, there are some wonderful programs like AA, or if it's drug abuse, there is NA. But people who might be severely addicted with drugs are going to be very, very reluctant to jump into that unless they seek some more intense care. Um, and might be some um in in-house and patient care. Um the people who are struggling, say, with uh the schizophrenic disorder or paraschizophrenic disorder or uh bipolar disorder, um, you know, again, it's it it's important to try to assist them in getting that particular care. But often people who say might have bipolar disorder, they don't see that. Yeah, and they may go off the medication. And so it's you know, as much as I could say, you know, stay on the medication and stay with your counselor, do what you do, uh that locomotive is still within that person to to move that train, you know.

SPEAKER_01 48:57

Yeah, no, it's so true. And you can't you can't change people.

SPEAKER_03 49:01

That's right. That's right.

SPEAKER_01 49:03

Yeah, that's right. Um, your heart to give back is so beautiful and to help others. Um, one of the things we've been doing with this podcast is just talking about the importance of people getting outside of themselves. And so I'd love for you to share um just with everybody what you feel um the importance of getting out, being a part of the community and giving back does for our souls.

SPEAKER_03 49:27

Well, there's there are some actual studies about going outside of yourself. So let's say um there's X number of Catholics, X number of Protestants, X number of Jews, X number of Lutherans, whatever of Muslims, whatever. So you have uh it whatever that number is, you're always going to have those who are practicing and then those who are just affiliated. But what we find in every religion is that those who are just affiliated have um a greater propensity toward uh isolation, being isolated, and um also uh toward some level of depression, especially as they get older. Those who are um practicing, they uh their level of wellness actually goes up. Yeah. So you they'll actually show the level of suicidality increases uh for those who have faith, but they're not practicing it on that social level, which is a part of any kind of religion, you know. Typically coming to say church on a Sunday is gonna is gonna be even if the sermon is boring, there is still another social relational thing going on. The community lifts the the the the the the spirit, yeah, if you will. Community yes, yeah, right. Moving ourselves out of that isolation. And then going back to that earlier point, I think um, getting out of ourself is more than just connecting with others and having a nice time, it can also be about service, and so that sense of dying to self-forgiving of self, people have a better um level of wellness when they do that. And that counts for anyone. Think about people of young or older men and women who are developmentally disabled. When they can work, you know, at a McDonald's or something like that, and they're doing something cleaning tables, they're there that there's kind of an ex existential dimension to their uh their being in that they're doing something that is getting out of their own shell.

SPEAKER_00 51:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 51:50

People go to St. Vincent Paul to help and feed the poor. There is a better level of wellness when a person is able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 51:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 52:00

I think it's so important.

SPEAKER_03 52:02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

I think it's so important to um get outside of ourselves, especially with so much technology accessible right now.

SPEAKER_02 52:10

Right.

SPEAKER_01 52:10

And I I just love it. I love what you're doing so much, and I'm so grateful for what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 52:16

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 52:16

And I think it's I know, not that I think, I know how important it is, just because I have definitely struggled myself with mental health at times, um, just going through a divorce or a break, heartbreak and whatnot, and just the feeling and the gravity of low and of just complete sadness and loss being a single mom and all of it. It just has been, you know, life, like we said, life is just not, it's just not like this. It's a lot of this.

SPEAKER_03 52:46

It is. And yeah, and and uh I think we all struggle with mental health in various ways. And the older, you know, what when you get older, it's it's not gonna go away because it just means that things some you now you're gonna have aches and pains, and all of a sudden you're finding yourself in a hospital for whatever reason, and that creates a level of stress, which creates mental health uh related issues and all that.

SPEAKER_01 53:13

I mean, I think mine was it finally hit the head. It's like I feel like I had high functioning anxiety, and that's how I was able to sing and perform at the level I was able to. It was great, it was great for that. But then when I went through a really devastating um heartbreak, yeah, my and the relationship, there was a lot of gaslighting and a lot of abuse, my anxiety went to paralyze complete, like, and so it was it was the hardest thing I've ever had to get out of. I um I was in counseling and I did EMDR therapy, which really helped me. And then um just getting out in the sun, um, changing my diet was important. So I was, I feel like, you know, it took about a year and a half to two years to feel me again, to feel like me again. And I think that's the thing that I feel so strongly about is that like healing takes time. It does to be patient with the people in your life that are in pain and give them a lot of grace and love on them because when you're in that space, it takes a lot of time, unfortunately. And it's not like you want to be sad and depressed and anxious, you want that to be over with fast.

SPEAKER_03 54:28

Right. And the healing piece is only one piece. You know, so often we think, you know, we go to a psychologist or a counselor when we're in pain. But think of like when do you go to a dentist? Do you go to a dentist only when you're in pain, or do you go to a dentist for preventative issues or for growth issues, you know, uh seeing a doctor. And you know, the doctor will prescribe certain things like exercise and proper diets and so that's for better growth. Same thing with counseling, it doesn't have to be when you're at your lowest. It can actually, you know, think of a counselor as a coach. Tiger Woods, yeah, yeah, Phil Nicholson need coaches to keep their game up.

SPEAKER_01 55:12

That's right. Yeah. I mean, I can't, I I didn't respond well to medication. So it was like, well, I better figure out what my body's going to respond to because not, and then that's the hardest thing is not everybody responds to like EMDR worked incredibly for me, um, but might not work for somebody else. However, um, I do feel like when you said meditating, I've thought about that so much. I spent like at least 20 to 30 minutes just deep breathing and having to learn how to take care of my anxiety. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 55:46

So I um I just really like I said, I really appreciate what you're doing. I'm so thankful to be on the other side.

SPEAKER_04 55:52

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 55:53

To have like the promise of tomorrow and to be excited for my future. And I guess like I I would say, like, if anybody is struggling out there, just know that there is so much life beyond the pain.

SPEAKER_02 56:06

That's right.

SPEAKER_01 56:07

There's so much. And it's gonna hurt for a moment. And sitting with the pain is terrible, but then you don't have to go back and relive it. So I dove deep into it. I was like, all right, I'm gonna dive deep into this because I never want to have to go right into this thing.

SPEAKER_03 56:20

And that's sometimes you just have to do that. You just go deep into it. That's you know, it got the people again with behavioral related issues, you gotta go deep into those things. If it's drugs or uh, you know, pornography or if it's whatever it is, you got to go deep into that and just uh move headlong. And and uh and then from there, you gotta keep you know that that level of maintenance up to make sure that you don't fall back.

SPEAKER_01 56:48

I feel that even with even with my diet, or if I'm not, you know, right getting out in the sun or I'm not um taking that time for myself, then you start feeling the anxiety creep in. And so I I completely agree with you. Um my last and final question. This is so fun, by the way. This is so great. Thank you, by the way. Um when all is said and done, what do you hope your legacy is?

SPEAKER_03 57:13

Oh gosh, my legacy. Ah gosh, I don't I I hope I don't have a legacy. I just hope I'm one more, you know, one more person in in the face on on the face of the earth who who loves God and knows that he is loved by God. That's that would be the ultimate uh goal in my life. Um, you know, of course, I know that while I'm here, I've got to do my part to go out and share the good news that God is on our side. He's Emmanuel God with us in all things. Um, you know, so I'm gonna do my part, but my part can't be anything. I mean, boy, a legacy is you know, that that's not to me, that's not one of my that's not one of my goals. You know, a legacy that's not your motto. No, no, clearly not my motto.

SPEAKER_01 58:07

Your your legacy is abide in love.

SPEAKER_03 58:09

Abide in my love. That would be the primary thing. Just abide in my love is what Jesus asks. And so I will have joy, and my joy will be complete and sustained.

SPEAKER_01 58:20

I love that. Um, I do think part of your legacy, if I must say, if I do say, um, is the fact that you are championing so many people with their mental and emotional health. And I appreciate you for that. And I know that the two million people that are heart of your dietes, yeah, that I know that they are so unbelievably grateful for that.

SPEAKER_03 58:44

Well, it what I like about it is that it's it it hits uh it's it's not an ideological issue. Um, it's not a political issue, it's not one thing over another. It is a real issue that impacts everybody's life in one way or another. Right. And so um I can speak, if I can speak to that, even if it's just like one drop in a massive ocean, um, I'm happy to do that.

SPEAKER_01 59:10

While you're doing it, thank you. Thank you so much. Thanks for being out, my boy.

SPEAKER_04 59:14

My pleasure. Thank you too.

SPEAKER_01 59:16

I appreciate you so much. Thank you. Thank you, thank you. My pleasure so much. I hope you were watching.

SPEAKER_00 59:24

Thank you for spending time with us today. The heart of the podcast is to highlight incredible stories of hope and the gift of giving back. I'm truly loving learning about each guest nonprofit and the impact they're making. If you'd like to learn more or get involved, you can find links to every charity mentioned on my YouTube and my Instagram under each episode. Thank you for watching, and I'll see you next week.