What are your thoughts on ownership?- Ask Nathan by How to be Second

What Does Ownership Really Mean? This question quickly turns into a conversation about ownership, stewardship, and the missing words that help to bridge the gap between the two concepts. From examples of his own lived experience, Nathan works through the literal and unspoken nuances of ownership, and what that can mean in the relationship of a First and Second. 

Hey, this is Nathan Young, founder and author of How to be Second, and this is Ask Nathan, where I answer questions about being and growing as a second in command + a Second by identity, and tear apart myths around those ideas and other concepts. I’m practicing communicating the value of Seconds so you can do so for yourself and others, with even more clarity.

Transcript

Nathan Young 0:00

Hey, this is Nathan Young. Founder and author of How to Be Second, and this is Ask Nathan where I answer questions about being and growing as a second in command and a second by identity and tear apart myths around those ideas and other concepts. I'm practicing communicating the value of seconds, so you can do so for yourself and others with even more clarity. If you're curious and wanna know more, listen on. If you know you're ready to invest in yourself and go together, connect with us.

0:30

All right Nathan, I have a question for you. What does ownership mean to you? Uh, obviously it has a bunch of meanings because I'm hesitating so much. So, the clear definition, right? The first one I think of is actually not the business definition. 'Cause there's a business definition that's like right away. And that is literally to own something, to be like, I own all of the land or the building or this house or whatever, right? And so there's a really simple definition. And then there's like ownership, which is more tantamount to stewardship. I would actually say has way less to do with ownership, like the property ownership concept. Right? Like they're actually pretty far apart. 'Cause the idea of stewardship of something I think is often what people are trying to say when they're like, oh, you should take ownership of that thing. They don't actually want you to own the thing, not literally, physically. Not like on a document. They want you to like take a real stewardship of a thing. To say, I have this thing. This is mine to carry forward, to be accountable for, to be responsible for, to look after. Like at the end of the day, these things are going to come back to me. Whether or not my name is on the document that actually says I get or possess any of that stuff. And so when I think of ownership, the first thing that comes into my mind when I think of ownership is actually the second definition, stewardship. Not to like buy equity rights, own a thing. So that's sort of a ridiculous reality. Once again, another two things wrapped up in the same idea. I think your answer is fascinating. Here's why. I think your answer is very indicative of your Second identity. Hmm. And I would actually love to hear you and Mondo tackle this, maybe. Because I completely hear you and understand what you're saying, and I think your definition of this has played out in your life in like many ways, and I specifically brought up this word for this reason. 'Cause I think there's so much nuance here in particular for Seconds. How they react to this word. Yeah. Because I agree with you. I think you are right. There is the very traditional sense of ownership. And we know that that word goes pretty hand in hand and in tandem with those who sit in the first in command seat. Like we need them to own this word in a very loud way. Yeah. And you're reacting to it into such a way as like this stewardship situation. Like you wanna take care of the thing, you wanna make sure that it's done well. Mm-hmm. Can you share any lived experience around this idea of ownership. Yeah. I mean, good and bad. Yeah, let's go. Right. So I think the thing that you're drawing out is really interesting 'cause a part of the reason that I would say that there's like ownership and there's also this stewardship concept. And part of the reason I would say that is because of how many times I have had a first in command, said like, take ownership of a thing. And so of course, of course the only translation is stewardship. Because when an owner who has zero interest in giving you literal actual ownership, like documented equity control. They're still telling you to take ownership, it must mean something different. So the two definitions beg to exist because people who are in the first in command seat are not actually interested in relinquishing the power that comes with the documented traditional ownership. And I have had that personally play out. Mm-hmm. Like. I mean, Search Lab. Search Lab was a good exemplar of all of the ways that this could be really good. We had people who were the owners, the on paper equity owners. And then a promise made to us that with a certain amount of work, behavior, stewardship, that I would be given then ownership. Equity, on paper ownership. And that was taken away and not given. So it just became a lie, an unfulfilled promise. Not by me. I managed the stewardship. But at the end of the day, they were fully satisfied to allow me the stewardship and they never provided me the equity. That's a really bad version. And in the same sense, you and I personally have been part of providing actual on paper ownership of things to people and them having no stewardship over that thing. On a couple of occasions. And I would like to think that we have mostly grown beyond that. Mostly me, and then I'm not sure that you were ever cool with that happening. Felt like the right idea at the time, and now I know better. I have an unfortunate amount of examples of why that word needs nuance, because of those real life experiences. I think those were both really bad versions, right? On the flip side, in our marriage, there is no documented ownership of anything. Like we, I mean, not that I know of, right? Yeah. Yeah. We own our marriage by existing, by agreeing. We definitely have agreements. Yes. And we have each taken stewardship of that thing in a really substantial way. Both together and independently. I mean, part of the reason that I have such a great relationship with Mondo is that he never offered me ownership. Day one, that wasn't on the table. He knew I wasn't interested and it never bothered him even one time. We crossed the bridge in 10 seconds and we were both totally happy with the position of it and like we never had to exchange it. We just understood, I wanted stewardship. He wanted ownership. He wanted me to have stewardship. I wanted him to have ownership, and we were done with the conversation and it was great for everyone. And also I have ownership of a bunch of like IP rights. Like How to be Second is mine. I own the intellectual property of the stuff that we're doing here. I have owned other intellectual property for things i've developed. Other books that I've published that nobody knows about. I own a hundred percent of that and it is completely fine. And I have owned a thing that I owned most of and sold a business for royalties, right? Equity stake that I transferred for real dollars. We have made an actual exit of a company for real money. We've had it go really well and I have no stewardship in that anymore. And it like is still very successful. So there's stories of both sides. Where I envision the rest of this conversation going. I just, I feel like a disclaimer is needed here, which is, I feel like we're gonna start painting some really broad strokes. Hmm. And like, obviously not every situation is the same. Not every Second is gonna have the same lived experiences with these words, you know, whatever. So if you're listening, we're gonna paint some broad strokes and, you know, we'll go from there. Okay. So we have these two words that have been coming up in tandem ownership and stewardship, and it feels like where the conversation has headed, that is you as a Second relate so much more and gravitate so much more naturally, mm-hmm, to this idea of being a steward. Yeah, for sure. Okay, so you talk a lot about these relationships between these Firsts and Seconds. So what are the words that we're missing that should bridge the gap in ownership and stewardship? Because so often, like love languages, we naturally wanna speak our own language. Hmm. Right. So a owner wants ownership from you. Yes. A steward wants equal steward, like we wanna know that you're stewarding as well. Yes. So if we move past those two words, what are some words that bridge that gap in a way that there's more shared language here? That's a really good question. Partially, I'm saying that to buy myself time, 'cause I'm not sure I completely understand well enough to provide an answer. I thought of some words, can rephrase slightly. Yeah, yeah. Gimme it. Something to pinball off of. I have some words have come to my brain as you're talking. Mm-hmm. What about investing? Like both the owner and the steward need to be invested. Yes. In the idea or the partnership I or the mo... how do you move forward together? Oh, investing is an incredibly valuable word. I would not have gotten there on my own, so I'm you. But you can be as a steward and be invested. You can be an owner and be invested Totally. You can be an owner and not be invested. Absolutely. And sometimes it's called for. Yes, whatever, but like you can be a steward and not be invested and that really speaks in the work. Oh, a thousand percent. I like the word invested. We're circling around the concept of like skin in the game. Sure. Yeah. And one of the things that this touches on is what I call the social contract between a First and Second. There's this unspoken social contract. And so the first in command is providing. They're putting their skin in the game. They're investing. So they're spending money typically, and that money is by ownership theirs. It's their money. The Second typically is getting paid. So being invested in. The Second also is like, I am investing my stewardship, but also like this touches my risk aversion. Because I'm putting all of the power into the hands of the person who is paying, right? I'm literally walking in and going, hey, yes, you're writing me a check, and so I'm going to do this work, but I get no power in this relationship. So I'm walking in and yes, you're handing me a check, but I'm leaving all of the decision making. I'm leaving the ownership in your hands. Which means at any given time, even if you are a raging asshole, and I'm awesome, you can let me go. Just because you decided one day you don't like me. That's terrifying. That's insanely risky, right? And so the social contract really is the first in command is saying you are going to take care of all of the stuff and I'm investing in that. And the Second is saying, I am giving you first of all this power, and secondly, I am going to put my head down to take care of all of this work. And so you have to take care of me. Those are the two ways that we're investing. You take care of me, write me a check, whatever, appreciate the work that I'm doing, make other people leave me alone when I have shit to do, yada, yada, yada. That's the First's investment. The Second's investment is, I am only relying on you. The only way I am effective is if I invest all of my trust and safety into you not screwing me over, which I am not taking away your ability to do. I think that crazy part about that is because of this idea of like ownership, it is assumed that if the first in command is like paying to receive a product, there's like an exchange there, not a mutual investment. Like the Second is all of the benefit and the first in command is hoping to get benefit. But that's bs. There's investment in both ways as soon as that happens because of that social contract. And I think that's ignored constantly. I would say this idea of like, how are we both recognizing that we are about to both invest in this? I'm about to give my time and my life and my stewardship to this, and also not take your power. That's a huge investment for me. So yeah, I actually think investment is a really helpful word in that concept. This also speaks to, this idea of like, why Seconds step into ownership. Oh, yes. Oh, I only step into ownership because I'll do it my damn self. So like, I'm burned already trying to serve some people that I feel led to serve. So like, I'll do it my damn self is for sure one of the ways. And then the other way is not again. Yeah. Right. Those are the two reasons I step into ownership. I'll do it my damn self or not again. That's why I think it'd be a really interesting conversation with Mondo. 'Cause the same goes for the owners, mm-hmm, who were burned by the stewards. Oh for sure. Oh yeah, 'cause there are shitty stewards out there. Really bad stewards. Yes. Especially if you hire another First type, another 1ic. A Batman hires a Batman, to become an Alfred. Yeah. Or the First and the Second have never found their footing and the relationship, mm-hmm, and it can feel very abandoning to lose your steward. Oh yeah. You don't know what's going on. We call it getting a divorce. Yeah. Right. Like feeling like you provided income for this person to train themselves to go find a better job. Yes. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. The person just took from you. Yes. So like you invested and they did not invest. And maybe if you had had that language of like, what am I investing? What are you investing? You would've had that language for even a conversation that never got to be had. Because it was all sort of taken for granted. Yeah. Yeah. Brutal. Sorry, I'm just reflecting back on so many bits of my life now, like, uh, alright, noted. Well, I think we should end that right there. Cool.

Nathan Young 14:45

Hey, it's Nathan again. If you made it to the end, that's awesome. If you have a question, shoot it over to contact @howtobesecond.com or just touch base with anyone you know at how to be second. If you're first in command and you're interested in understanding more on your own, check out our one second podcast. If you're ready to invest in yourself and go together, reach out directly. If you resonated with how I explained seconds and secondness, and think you might be one, you can check out our am I a second assessment on our website, howtobesecond.com /assessment It is directional, not definitive. You could also grab our book, how to Be Second from our website or Amazon or almost anywhere you like to buy books, including on audio read by the authors, myself and David Hartman. Either way, if you're glad this work exists and want it to continue existing, you can support how to be second at howtobesecond.com /support Thanks again, i'm looking forward to your next question.