Bad Managers -Are You Working for a Miranda Priestly - or Worse?

What does The Devil Wears Prada teach us about bad managers?

In this episode of Aren’t Ya Tired Of…, Patti and Mark break down the profiles of the difficult managers—from the “Miranda Priestly” moody bully to micromanagers, credit takers, non-decision makers, and the conflict avoiders.

They unpack the most common bad manager behaviors—unclear expectations, control, lack of feedback, and workplace stress—to determine what’s really driving them and what to do about it. They share practical strategies and ideas to help you navigate a bad manager, keep your confidence, and stay in control of your career.

Because the real question isn’t just “Why are they like this?”
It’s “What do I do about it?”

If you’ve ever wondered, “How can I deal with this manager?" —this episode is for you

Please subscribe and share this with anyone who needs to hear this conversation! Check out Aren't Ya Tired Of on YouTube, and follow us on Instagram at arentyatiredof_social.  Send your topic suggestions to podcast@pattibjohnson.com or through DM on LinkedIn or Instagram.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:09

Welcome everybody. We are excited you are here to talk about bad managers. And the Devil Wars Prada 2 just came out this week, and we are so excited. This was one of my favorite movies of all time. You know, Mark, I don't know. Yes. That's all. I still use it all the time. Miranda, that's all. Um, by all means, move at a glacial pace. So, because of this great movie, our topic today is bad managers. This is kind of inspired us to talk about it. And so today, you're going to learn some tips of how to deal with difficult managers and hopefully make your life better as a result. So, welcome to Aren't You Tired of Podcast. Um, we are here to discuss all the things that we're tired of. List is getting longer and longer, Mark. Yeah. Um, and uh what we're gonna do about them. That's the important thing. I'm Patty Johnson here with my co-host.

SPEAKER_00 0:58

I'm Mark Benton.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

Mark Benton. And we're so glad you're gonna hang out with us today.

SPEAKER_00 1:02

Yeah, you know, it's it's funny. Uh, I did not know that uh Miranda was uh one of your uh spirit animals.

SPEAKER_01 1:11

Spirit stupid humans. Movie is one of my favorite movies. I wouldn't call her my spirit animal. She's got yeah, spirit human, huh?

SPEAKER_00 1:18

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know about that. But great movie. It's funny because even outside of Miranda, you know, uh uh example of a horrendous manager. You know, if you've worked in, you know, any kind of setting where you have a boss or a manager, there there's some not good ones out there.

SPEAKER_01 1:33

Not good ones. And we just don't want it to be you. We don't want it to be you.

SPEAKER_00 1:37

Hopefully it's not you. Exactly. So that's the main thing. Hopefully it's not us. We haven't we haven't been one of these culprits we're gonna talk about.

SPEAKER_01 1:44

Exactly. And when you think about managers, we want you to think about there are managers everywhere, everywhere groups are gathering and trying to do something, right? So whether it's your nonprofit, it's your community service group, it's in the office. Yeah, wherever you are, we're talking about all those managers. And if you are a consultant or a coach, you're dealing with managers all day long. So these, this special little species is what we're gonna dive into today and try to really focus on the difficult ones.

SPEAKER_02 2:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 2:14

Yeah. Um, you know, Patty and I, when we were getting prepped for this topic, we talked about some of the most common and challenging manager types we've experienced and and seen in action. Uh, you know, it we've coached them, uh, we've helped other people learn how to handle them, uh, but but it's never been us.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Never us.

SPEAKER_00 2:35

Never, never been us.

SPEAKER_01 2:38

We'd never be us.

SPEAKER_00 2:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:39

The funny thing is, is Mark and I were kind of creating these profiles. Sadly, we had to, we had to cut some off because we had too many, right?

SPEAKER_00 2:46

We just the list kept coming.

SPEAKER_01 2:48

The list kept coming. Yeah. So what we want to do first is we are going to find out who are these top profiles. Mark and I are each gonna kind of describe them. We're not gonna talk about yet what to do with them, how you manage them, what how you build that confidence and relationship. But first, who are they? We're gonna describe them first and then go back to them. I'm gonna start off. Since we're talking about Dead Wars Proto 2, we'll start off with Miranda, the moody bully.

SPEAKER_02 3:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 3:18

Um, who's it gonna be today? She's mad, frustrated, and moody, and she uses that unpredictability to keep you off balance and uncertain. That's her whole thing. Control, she's never happy, never good enough.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

Yep. That's that's that's her power play. That's that one. Um, how about let's let's call this one Mike the micromanager. Um I'm gonna, if I'm Mike the micromanager, I I'm gonna need to be involved in anything and everything you do. Right? I'm on you. I'm uh I'm like, you know, the the eye, the evil eye, watching everything you do.

SPEAKER_01 3:58

Yes, Mike's on it. Chrissy the credit taker. That's number three. Chrissy, you're not gonna outshine me. I'm the star, everyone. Step back, stay off the stage. It's all about me.

SPEAKER_00 4:11

Okay. Um, how about this one? Uh Caroline, the conflict avoider, right? Caroline is weaving and bobbing and you know, like juking, you know, she's doing all the things. Uh she delays on decisions. Uh, she uh can't have a talk straight conversation. She's not gonna really say what what what she thinks.

SPEAKER_01 4:33

So okay. Cam the clueless, but he's all in. He is all in your business, has no clue what's going on, no interest in in learning, but that does not keep him from giving you lots of direction. That's uh almost always wrong.

SPEAKER_00 4:49

Yeah, all right. Um, and then here's here's the last one. Uh, we'll call this one Harry the historian. All right. Harry, um, not gonna change. Nope. Nope. Uh, convinced how it works, been there, done that, stuck in the past, won't move forward, won't change anything. Everything is working great just as it is today.

SPEAKER_01 5:14

Don't mess it up.

SPEAKER_00 5:15

Don't mess it up, don't touch my stuff.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

All right. Let's dive into each of these. And most importantly, talk about how do you manage them? How do you deal with them? How do you sleep at night if you're working for any one of these people? Right. So we're gonna start with Miranda the Moody Bully. Yeah. Okay, inspired by Miranda Priestley. Um the core driver here with Miranda is intimidation to keep you off balance. So that desire for control. That's what runs her engine. So she's unpredictable. Um, she can be pretty sarcastic and belittling, and she might use some public criticism. She might call you out.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

She might.

SPEAKER_01 5:50

She probably will. Will. And unrealistic expectations. Mark, you hit the bar right here. I'm gonna raise it a little bit higher.

SPEAKER_00 5:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 5:56

So have you worked for a Miranda?

SPEAKER_00 5:59

Yeah, uh, sadly enough, I've I've worked um for a Miranda and a Mirando. Uh I've I've worked for both. Me too. And you know, the thing I remember the first time I watched the the first Devil Wars Prada movie, there were times when I would watch the games that um Merrill Stroop's character would play in Miranda Priestley, and I I would I had a little bit of PTSD.

SPEAKER_01 6:24

Yeah, it'd give you a little bit of a twitch.

SPEAKER_00 6:26

Yeah, exactly. Um, like the character, I think her name is Andy or something. She Anne Hathaway. Yeah, Anne Hathaway, where she's running to get the coffee, and then there's another impossible situation and another impossible situation. I just was like, this is a bit and it's set up that way, right?

SPEAKER_01 6:42

That's exactly the way Miranda the Moody Bully wants it. So what do you do? How do you deal with that? That's where we really want to focus to. If you're dealing with that, I have, like Mark, yeah, I have had a Miranda and a Mirando both. Yeah. And I will say the biggest thing that helped me is asking other people, tell me how to we don't have to be out, you know, trash talking. Just tell me how you worked with this person. You seem to have had good, been successful.

SPEAKER_02 7:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Give me, give me your tips. And like, and one of the things I learned is never meet with them on Monday. Never on Monday, because that's when the stress level is the highest. Wow. The goals are the highest. Don't go near them on Monday if you can avoid it. Never mornings, not good to meet with them in the mornings, afternoon. So I started scheduling my check-ins Fridays, midday. Okay. End of the week, middle of the day. Okay. So I learned a lot of tips about their ways of who how they operate. That helped me a lot. The other thing I think is really important, you can't lose yourself with a Miranda, which it's easy to do. You've got to stay calm. Do not mirror her energy. Because that's what she wants, right? So you've got to say, I'm going to stay true to myself.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Because I wonder when you mirror the energy, they got you.

SPEAKER_01 7:55

They got you. And they they're going to keep you on, you know. So once they kind of figure out, I'm going to stay calm, I'm doing my best. I care a lot about my work, but you've got to keep that calm. You're not going to win emotionally. You're going to win through competence, through have being on your game, and you got to be who you are. The other thing that's really that was the hardest for me is you're never going to get the great job, Mark. So good. Sometimes the best you're going to get is nothing. That means okay. You might get a nod. Yeah. You might get no feedback, which means means it was okay. So you're never you you can't expect it because Miranda, the Miranda is not ever going to be that person for you. So you got to have realistic expectations about how it's going to work.

SPEAKER_00 8:44

Yeah. One thing I I would add on that one is you'll also need to make sure that you talked about being very competent in your job. For sure. Knowing what is expected of me. And I think also with you know this Miranda Mirando character, you need to also observe how they how they operate.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:11

Not that, you know, you need to be your authentic self, not that you want to become them. Uh, but what I think you want to look at is, ah, I see how you have to be a big studier and observer of how they show up and how they work the room, how they handle the meeting. Do it in your own unique way.

SPEAKER_02 9:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

You know, but observe how they win and then determine what of that, you know, is appropriate for you to emulate, maybe.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah. Yeah. And one other comment before we talk about Mike, the micromanager. I do think the Miranda manager can be the hardest on your stress level because she's always looking to crank it up, just never good enough, nothing's right. And so you have to really work on staying clear and focused of I know what good, like you say, competent, I know what competent looks like, I know what a good job looks like and not mirror, because if you do, it these these kinds of managers, I think can maybe be the most stressful.

SPEAKER_00 10:13

They can't, they will take you out. Take you out. I mean, like, and when I say that, I mean one thing that we know is you may be working for a type like this and you're just for fear of your job because you're like, I don't know if I'm meeting expectations. So that's one thing I think uh a listener that's experienced this manager may be dealing with.

SPEAKER_01 10:32

Exactly. I think of all the ones we're talking about, this one can be the one you have to really work on. Your stress, staying centered.

SPEAKER_00 10:39

So anyway, we can talk about Mike. Yeah, that's right. Well, we have our next uh bad manager type, and that's uh Mike, the micromanager. So remember, we talked about, you know, their core driver is about con it's about control too. It's but it's a loss of control. Yeah, yeah, there's a theme here. It's about loss of control. So some managers micromanage because they have trust issues. They can't give up the trust. They they have to be in control. But the other thing to know about this one is they may not trust themselves. And that could also be going on there. Um, you know, I know how to do your work, I know how to do my own work, and I need to control it. I need to manage it. So, you know, one of the things that, you know, is they won't delegate. Um, they're constantly checking in on you, asking where you are. It's almost like they don't have a realistic understanding of, you know, give me some time to do the work, you know, kind of a thing. So a couple of things to think about for this type is, you know, you have to think about giving updates and information um before they ask. Anticipate what they're going to be asking. So when you sit down with, you know, the micromanager, um, you want to really kind of get in a habit of understanding, okay, this is the job to be done, and then start planning your check-ins and almost contract with them to say, okay, so you know, when's the deadline on all of this work, you know, this project, this um community thing we're doing together, this, you know, work thing. And here, here's the timeline for check-ins. You're almost saying overcommunicate. Yeah, you are. You're overcommunicating. I think that's a great point. Uh, so set those regularly scheduled check-ins, um, and then sending frequent updates, status reports, those kinds of things that keep that individual, that micromanager, informed and aware of what's going on. Because remember, at the core, it's about control and it's about managing how things come. And the micromanager also think about it, I'll I'll use this term. There um, there's a lot of impression management going on, meaning that they are concerned about how the work looks, how it represents them. And so you have to always remember to balance that I want to make first of all, I want to represent myself well as an employee or as a person on committee or whatever it is. But the person in charge, you know, the manager and you know, the decision maker, the one that kind of holds the control, you want to make sure that you're setting them up for success without killing yourself.

unknown 13:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:28

Boundaries.

SPEAKER_01 13:29

Good point. Good point. You know, you know, I also wonder, uh, as you're talking, I'm thinking, Mark, sometimes the micromanager also is all up in your business because they don't know how to do their own role. And maybe they used to do your job and they know your job.

SPEAKER_02 13:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:43

But they don't necessarily know how to step up to that next level. So there could be a, you know, sometimes knowing why helps, sometimes it doesn't. But I think your point is like I communicate the heck out of it.

SPEAKER_00 13:55

Well, I would tell you, I think getting context and observing and knowing why, I think it always helps.

SPEAKER_01 14:00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:01

I think you always it helps me. Well, it helps me too, but I I would tell, you know, someone who's listening, observe. Well, what is this really about?

SPEAKER_01 14:09

What's going on?

SPEAKER_00 14:10

Ask others, people that you know, your your truth tellers and your trusted people in whatever the environment is. Hey, tell me about working with this person. What what else do you know about them? Get the intel so that you know your game plan.

SPEAKER_01 14:23

Yeah, exactly. Okay, we were talking about the next one.

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:27

Chrissy the credit taker. Okay. I'm gonna give you an example. I don't know if anybody is listening watches Abbott Elementary. Oh, I love I haven't seen them all, but there are some great characters on there. And the principal, she is like the model example of the credit taker. In fact, the one thing when we were talking about this kind of this profile person, I can remember when she, the the teachers all came to her with this big recommendation of we've got to get some funding for some classroom supplies. Yes, we need them. And so she comes back and she's all all proud and says, I got the $3,000. They're applauding. That's great. They're all excited about the supplies. And then she goes on to say, and I got my hair redone. She's like, I have found you fix the inside first and the outside takes care of it. Then she not only did she have her hair done and was looking, she was so proud of it. She then unveils this sign, this huge sign of the Abbott Elementary School with her on it.

SPEAKER_00 15:31

Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_01 15:32

Yes. So this is what we're talking about here is Chrissy. It's all about her, but everybody else is just a just minor extras in her movie. But this person is out there and it's pretty common, actually. And so I think the core fear of Chrissy not looking important enough, driven by individual public success. So what you're dealing with with a Chrissy, Chrissy's gonna take all the credit.

SPEAKER_00 15:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 15:57

Okay. In the meetings, I did great. Mark, if something went wrong, you probably did it.

SPEAKER_00 16:04

If if there was a problem or something didn't I'm sure it was you. It was you.

SPEAKER_01 16:07

I'm pretty sure it was you. Because it wasn't me. It wasn't me. It's not her fault. That's Chrissy. Yeah. She, it's all I, very little, very little we. Yeah. And um she will slow down your advancement and progress if it works to her benefit. So I think that person is out there. I I can picture a few faces coming to mind. Yeah. But so what do you do? Yeah. So here is, you know, you can't be in the room alone with Chrissy. And that's a simple way of saying you cannot depend on Chrissy for your career, for your, you know, for even your making sure your performance is, you know, is evaluated perfectly. You've got to share with others. Okay. You've got to have other people. You can have other mentors, advisors. If you're on committees and stuff outside work, it's always best just have other people where you're sharing what's going on, share your successes publicly. Now don't, you don't need to diss Chrissy. Give her credit, yeah, but also give yourself some credit because you cannot rely on this person. Because what do we know about Chrissy? Chrissy's gonna make it work for her.

SPEAKER_00 17:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Okay. It's all about her. She wants the public acknowledgement and success at any benefit, even if she spends the school money on hair and hair on the billboard where she's on the front of it. So um yeah. So she's one where you just need to not, you cannot rely on her. You have to help make sure you have a good little network, other people involved. You can't go solo with Christy.

SPEAKER_00 17:33

Yeah, you can't. No. Okay. So that was Chrissy. Now let's talk about uh Carolyn, the conflict avoider. Mm-hmm. Okay. So remember uh Carolyn avoiding conflict, it's about, you know, not really ever wanting to be wrong, making a visible mistake, right? So they're always planning it super safe. Super safe. And so uh they delay decisions, which can be so frustrating. If there is if you're a uh higher level manager or you are, you know, Carolyn's manager, or you know, if you're Carolyn's HR partner, you know, Carolyn won't address poor performance on the team. Not gonna or on the project, just won't. Might avoid it, won't do any of the things, just kind of let it ride, won't have the conversation, allows tensions and problems to just continue to rise. Um might say won't say it publicly, but we'll say it privately. Okay, we all have worked or might know of this conflict avoidant, you know, manager. So let's talk about some things to combat that. Okay, so here we go. Here's one bring solutions and recommendations. So for the conflict avoider, what you're trying to help them do is land the plane. Yes, get to a decision, help them decide, make those incremental uh steps so that they don't delay on a decision. Or if we can't make the full decision, can we at least move this far in? You know, you want to think about that. You want to ask questions, you want to create situations for Carolyn that help Carolyn, the conflict avoider, to win, to have the win.

SPEAKER_01 19:21

You know, as you're talking, one thing, Mark, that I think that I've seen is if you can say to Carolyn, you know, Bossy Boss Boss is in full support of doing something like this. And in fact, in another meeting, she was talking about the her goals being really aligned with this. Because all of a sudden, what you've done, I'd be a really simple explanation. Oh, what you've done is you've offered a little air cover, which is what she's looking for.

SPEAKER_00 19:47

That's right. That's right. Also, when you bring solutions or decisions, it's helpful to kind of use don't say this publicly, listeners, just between us friends here when I say this, use the toddler approach. Um A or B. Right.

SPEAKER_01 20:01

You want a dinosaur?

SPEAKER_00 20:03

Dinosaur, or do you want Buzz Lightyear?

SPEAKER_01 20:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:05

I mean, like what what do you want to play with? We only take one toy.

SPEAKER_01 20:08

But it's your decision.

SPEAKER_00 20:09

Yeah, it's your decision. You you gotta make the decision. Um but find ways to help them make decisions, right? Um and then what you gotta remember is be thinking ahead for the conflict avoider around uh consequences and and where might there be pitfalls. Help them to break those consequences and risks possibly down into smaller pieces. Right. Uh we talked in a previous uh episode where we were talking about navigating change, about what can you control and what can you not control. And so sometimes the conflict avoider around certain situations is worried about too many things, right? And the wrong things.

SPEAKER_01 20:49

For sure.

SPEAKER_00 20:50

And so how you can help them kind of break it down into what can we control, what what can't we control? And and then sometimes uh provided that Carolyn the conflict um avoider might not also be a micromanager, she then you got a deadly company. Then you got a lethal double double hurt. But provided that's not who is not both combined in one person, then also what you can do is say, hey, um Carolyn, what can I take off your plate? What what decision rights do I have? Could I make this decision for us? Right. Give me your opinions.

SPEAKER_01 21:25

She might let you hang out to dry if you make the wrong one.

SPEAKER_00 21:28

Maybe.

SPEAKER_01 21:28

But you still want it.

SPEAKER_00 21:29

But bring your allies. Bring your allies to help you get through it, and then that that can help you with that that conflict.

SPEAKER_01 21:34

You know, the other thing I'm wondering too, Mark, on the Carolyn, you know, I think for those people that are picturing kind of this passive little, you know, little mouse that can't make a decision.

SPEAKER_00 21:44

Not necessarily.

SPEAKER_01 21:45

There can be some very savvy people that would be that same conflict avoider. You know, Mark, this is really interesting. I'd like you to look more into do a little bit more research on this. So there are people. Who are very, very good at this and very good at masking this. Yeah. But you still use the same techniques that you're talking about. But they just don't all show up as just sitting in the corner going, I don't know what to do.

SPEAKER_00 22:10

Not the mousie. Not that. No, no. Because actually, now that you think about it, I think about people in my life that are actually brilliant. Yes. And and and very assertive and strong personalities, effective. Just avoid conflict like the yes. You know, like it's a vegetable you don't like. Name the vegetable Brussels sprouts. They will avoid it, you know.

SPEAKER_01 22:35

Make those taste pretty good if you add a lot of stuff to them, though, by the way.

SPEAKER_00 22:38

I don't know. I really don't know about the Brussels sprouts. You don't think there's no hope. I don't think there's hope. No.

SPEAKER_01 22:43

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 22:43

No.

SPEAKER_01 22:44

All right. Should we talk about Cam the Clueless?

SPEAKER_00 22:46

Cam the Clueless. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Camless is clean Cam is clueless, but he that doesn't slow him down. He is in the middle of everything. And my mental example, Michael Scott from the office. Oh. There are more examples of this than I can even bring today. You know, he um DEI Day, Diversity Day, nightmare. Okay. As like one of the classic ones. Michael, remember, oh, I didn't we can't even talk about it.

SPEAKER_02 23:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 23:16

It was cringe. It was cringe. Horrible. Created the Dundee Awards. Can't name all the categories he had, but it included Whitest Sneakers and the award for Don't Go In There After Me. Handing that out. We're going to let that sit. And there are others. But Michael was in the middle of everything. And if you watch The Office, which you know, Michael's family is obsessed with the office.

SPEAKER_00 23:41

Yes. The character. I was listening to him on a podcast and he was talking about Michael. And he's like, Michael, he said, Michael's clueless. He said, but he wanted him to be lovable. Yes. Lovable, clueless dude, always trying.

SPEAKER_01 23:55

Always trying. And trying a lot. You know, to the point everyone's like, please stop. Yes. And uh, you know, his fear being exposed, blamed, or shamed, operating way beyond their competence, but compensating with involvement. That's right. I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm gonna be super involved. That's right. Which has to help, right? Maybe maybe. So Michael is a caricature. So it's funny. He's funny to laugh about, but I have worked with a cam or two.

SPEAKER_02 24:22

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

And that is, you know, you're kind of going, they think they know your area of work, but they're not learning anything, right? They're not learning anything. They think they already understand. Um, they give direction, they just can't work and and inaccurately assess the situation. Yeah. So what are you gonna do? You got somebody that you're working with, and this might not be a direct boss, it might be the chairman of the committee and the community service group that's like, that's not gonna work. So what do you do?

SPEAKER_00 24:46

This may be somebody you, it may not be even, like you said, a boss or a manager. It could be a peer.

SPEAKER_01 24:51

It could be.

SPEAKER_00 24:51

It still impacts your ability to get things done right now. Correct. That is correct. That's frustrating. Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 24:57

So you have to like figure out how can I involve Cam in the lowest risk way. So I always think of it as here's all the stuff we're dealing with. Where are we gonna zero in Cam? We got to pull Cam in, right? Because Cam, this is a low risk area. Encourage Cam to it to learn by coming to a meeting or two, low-risk meeting.

SPEAKER_00 25:19

Yeah, yeah, Cam. Low risk. I need you to come to the meeting, but I need you not to speak or say anything.

SPEAKER_01 25:24

Cam. Speak when spoken to.

SPEAKER_00 25:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

Cam. But you know, again, low risk. Um, I think you want to avoid revealing all his knowledge gaps because Cam can get defensive on you, but provide some contained authority.

SPEAKER_02 25:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:40

Target, target, target. How can I reduce the threat that he is bringing in this situation? Not how can I block him out? Because we know the more you try to block him out, what's Cam gonna do?

SPEAKER_00 25:52

He's gonna come on in with his cluelessness.

SPEAKER_01 25:55

He's gonna come in at full speed.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

Yeah, hard.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

He's coming in hard because you're trying to block me out. Right. And I I need to be in there.

SPEAKER_00 26:02

I need for my cluelessness to be in this.

SPEAKER_01 26:05

In this. So you're trying to figure out where can I involve Cam that it is going to be productive or where maybe maybe there's an area where he knows more about than the other, but it's going to take a strategy and targeting.

SPEAKER_00 26:19

So but I also wonder if there's Cam, why don't I just take this?

SPEAKER_01 26:23

Maybe.

SPEAKER_00 26:24

I mean, think about that in in your given situation, listener, if you have to deal with a Cam that's clueless, that Cam, I got this. How about I update you later? Because sometimes I guess what I'm speaking to is sometimes Cam didn't want to be there anyway.

SPEAKER_01 26:38

He doesn't want to be there. But then maybe I love the one thing you're bringing up too. It could be let me take this and how about you and I share it out together? How about you we share this together?

SPEAKER_00 26:48

Meanwhile, well, see you're kinder than me because I would do it. If I did it, I'm gonna own it.

SPEAKER_01 26:55

Yeah. Well, I I that's my tendency too. Right. But if you're playing the long game and he's gonna be there a while, you might figure out, okay, how can I let him, quote, be a leader owner of this area, broader area. Um, but you want him out of your hair, basically. Because you need to be able to make some decisions. You need to be able to move. You need to be able to move.

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Move at pace, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 27:16

Uh yeah, this one's a tricky one. That one's a tricky one.

SPEAKER_00 27:19

It can't be. So it can't be. Well, Harry, the historian, uh, you know, uh Harry, Harriet is smart. Smart, you know, well, let's assume. Let's assume. I had a leader one time that told that told me, and this was nice and it was shade, but he said, you know, you know, Mark, he said everybody's smart. Are they? Wait a minute. But are they? He said he said every everybody's smart. And what he was saying is you may be smart at uh coloring. You know, you may be smart at cutting onions. But not blocks. But cutting but you may be smart at cutting onions. But uh so that was he was being nice, but it was shade. He was like, Oh, everybody's smart. Yeah. Harry Harry the historian, Harry's smart, Harriet is smart. Okay, but they'll politely shut down an idea if it doesn't align to the past. Hey, uh, we did that and it didn't work. They use data and information as a weapon. Um, and usually it's not data and information to move something forward, it's data and information of why it won't work.

SPEAKER_01 28:36

Oh, for sure. Right. So I don't want to change it.

SPEAKER_00 28:38

Right. I don't want to change it. They resist change. Uh they are, you know, a um saboteur, you know, to certain projects and things. They'll slow things down, you know, and they're just not willing to learn and move forward. Uh so you know, I think some strategies, and I was trying to think about a Harry, the historian, like that, like a character or somebody. Because I I don't want to say names of people that, you know, I kind of know in the natural. In the wild, we don't we don't want to go there. But wouldn't do that. But I just I can't think of one right now, but you know, some strategies to to work through Harriet or Harry, the historian, is, you know, base any change, you know, on about how we get to prior success. So, hey, at that point in time, we were upgrading, changing, uh, getting more effective or better. And it wasn't that way before, and we had to move it forward. So, what worked then and what could work and apply now? So, you know, help bring them forward by using lessons from the past to move forward. Uh, that can help. Um, center your communication on um incremental improvement. So, listeners, what we're saying around that one is break it down small. Like I use this analogy sometimes with leaders. Um, you want to get someone to do something differently, but you don't necessarily want them to know that you've done the change. So I say, You can go and put the spinach in the brownie.

SPEAKER_02 30:09

Yes.

SPEAKER_00 30:10

You know, there was this uh foodie that was she was like a celebrity chef or something, and she was trying to get her kids to eat more vegetables. And so she said, I just put the vegetables in in the dessert.

SPEAKER_01 30:21

Hey, that's genius. Right.

SPEAKER_00 30:22

So she said, I put the spinach in the brownie. So I've used that analogy to say sometimes people can these brownies are delicious. Yes. And I'm like, and they have spinach in there. Yeah. You know, my kids, I love these brownies. And there's zucchini in there too, right? So that's what you have to do with this historian. You have to, here's the situation, and you know, you don't want to keep things from them because if they're in a place of, you know, having sway and control over your career, you you don't want to do that. But how can you move things along, you know, in little incremental ways and experiment and small test and then check back in, hey, was that so bad? That was great. Yes, you know, reward the historian when you see them moving forward.

SPEAKER_01 31:04

Yeah. And super important. Baby steps. It's okay. Get them to because they're they're afraid of change, basically, right? Give them a baby step, something they can say yes to.

SPEAKER_00 31:14

Yeah. I I I think that's right. And I think if you have, you know, here's what we have to accomplish, here's the goals or whatever, you know, use and build in those little incremental wins into those goals. Big time. That's that's important.

SPEAKER_01 31:26

Big time.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:27

So we've talked about some of our favorites. I I mean, I we both we thought of at least three or four more, but we didn't have time, right? We didn't want to be able to narrow it down here. So, in the spirit of kind of bringing this um you know, landing and you know, what do we do about this? One thing I want to say, you're gonna notice that well, how many times did Mark and I say fear of looking bad, loss of control, not looking important enough? So, all of those, you're dealing with some deep-seated issues, right? These habits are based on kind of what's what is going on here.

SPEAKER_02 31:58

They really are.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

However, our advice is to take a step back. Are you interacting with that person really differently than everybody else? If Mark is micromanaging only me, okay. He's okay. He's got he's got some concerns about my work.

SPEAKER_00 32:15

Preach and teach, Matty.

SPEAKER_01 32:16

Yes, he's doing it, right? And say, wait a minute. Yeah, he's only Mike, the micromanager is only micing it up with me. So that means uh there's I got an issue here.

SPEAKER_00 32:27

Yeah, he's managing the micros with me. Me.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Maybe did I have some, have I had some problems with errors in the past? Am I brand new? What's going on there? Just got to figure out is it different for me than everybody else?

SPEAKER_00 32:39

Well, here's the thing that you're saying, and I I think I've said this before. Uh, listener, in any of these situations with any of these people, self-awareness is the greatest gift you can give yourself. Sure. So if you're self-aware truly, then it will help you to figure out, you know, how you have to respond and manage and get in there. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 32:59

Yeah. So I think that is super important. That is like, is it, is it am I anyway a contributor to this? The other thing I will say about Mike, the micromanager, yeah. If you are, hey, I'm doing my own thing. I'm out there and and Mike has no idea what you're doing, you are also serving it up on a platter.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

You know, he's gonna be contributing to the You're contributing.

SPEAKER_01 33:19

So I think you've gotta you've got to have that awareness. And the other thing is be the researcher. Get the facts, what's going on in this situation? Because I think that makes a difference sometimes with people.

SPEAKER_00 33:29

It always makes a difference. I, you know, and I think to your point, the thing I would also add is most managers, most leaders, people responsible for delivering something or making sure something lands the right way, they're like all of us, they might behaving differ they might be behaving, excuse me, differently because they're stressed. Or there's something going on, and this is not normally how they always are. So, you know, when you said kind of do your research, get the facts, look at the bigger picture. It could just be this is a snapshot in time. Now it might be a long snapshot in time, but what's going on? Because any of these characters can't have their best day. You know, they can't have their best day. But I always tell um people that I work with, um, and I'll I'll say this, this doesn't just apply in work, but also outside of work, that we all have towering strengths. I'll I'll go back to what that manager Everybody's smart.

SPEAKER_02 34:26

Everybody's smart.

SPEAKER_00 34:27

Everybody's smart. We all have these superpowers, these these um abilities. But when we're stressed or pressed or fatigued or there's a certain situation, these abilities when overplayed, because that's how we've learned to win, and though these abilities become liabilities.

SPEAKER_01 34:45

For sure. And am I brand new in my job? Do I have a brand new manager? Did we just reorganize and all of a sudden I thought I knew I had sure footing, and now what the heck is going on? You know, so those are things that my past, you know, they could be situational, maybe it'll get better.

SPEAKER_00 35:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:01

Um, but I agree.

SPEAKER_00 35:02

Anyway, I agree. So So I was gonna say, um, you know, as we think about these bad managers, these characters, we've talked about some of the strategies. I I'm interested, Patty, in uh what uh your takeaway is here. What's kind of your biggest learning that you would want listeners to to take away?

SPEAKER_01 35:20

Right. I think um do your homework. We've talked, we've said that multiple times on all these people. Make sure you get some data, get some facts.

SPEAKER_02 35:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

Um I also think stay calm and objective. I do think it's really do not lose yourself as you have um a difficult manager. You gotta stay true to yourself, stay confident. And um, you know, uh you and I have talked about this before, Mark. If it is unbearable and this isn't gonna change, you gotta decide, am I in the right place?

SPEAKER_00 35:55

That's that's a key point.

SPEAKER_01 35:56

And that's why when you're talking about is it situational? Is this gonna get better? Or is this person here for the long haul? And I gotta figure out can I can I be successful? You cannot lose yourself trying to fix someone else because you're just not gonna be able to do it. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 36:13

That's right. Uh you know, and I'll piggyback off of your your key takeaway for listeners. Mine is take care of yourself. For sure. So I've worked in situations where I've actually had a leader that was a couple of these, you know, all pulled together. And I remember those times that they were very taxing on me. And I was at a point in my career where I didn't have a lot of uh, as we use the term now, agency. You know, I that's my manager. They're they're responsible for my career and my progression and what I do next and where I go. And so I didn't really know what to do. But as I look back now, now Mark would tell then, Mark, you could have taken care of yourself better. You could have maybe set different boundaries, made different decisions. So, right now, listener, if you're in that situation, you know, my my one thing I'd want you to take away is how are you taking care of yourself? Are you taking your personal time off? Are you putting boundaries around your weekends? And, you know, I work from this time to this time. This is important. Set those boundaries and to your point, Patty, uh, I would say that if it decide if it's the place for you.

unknown 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:30

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 37:30

Decide, you know, because that's important.

SPEAKER_01 37:32

Right. And if you decide it is, you just figure out I'm gonna deal with this. This too shall pass. Um, you know, most managers, you don't stay in a role forever, they don't stay in a role forever. That's true. I'm gonna manage my way through it and I'm not gonna let it keep me up at night. And that's harder sometimes to do than than not. But we hope we have given you some tips to work with because there are some pesky managers out there. There is some. And there are. There are. And so we hope if you have one, we wish you didn't, but if you did, we hope this gives you some ideas. Um, we hope that if you saw yourself in any of these, yeah, might be time for a little self-reflection, a little team input if you need it. Um, and also please share if you have any friends that are out there that, you know, when you're having drinks on Friday night, they have got some stories. Please share this with them. Subscribe to us on Apple or Spotify. Uh, follow us on Instagram, Aren't You Tiredov underscore social, and give us suggestions. We've had some great ones coming in. Suggestions, questions, DM us on Instagram, LinkedIn, or Facebook. You can also email us at podcasts. We'd love to hear from you. We'd love to hear from you.

SPEAKER_00 38:36

Yes, yes, let me do that.

SPEAKER_01 38:37

Have a great week, everyone. And we hope you're not dealing with it.

SPEAKER_00 38:41

We hope.

SPEAKER_01 38:41

We hope.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

We hope. All right. Thank you all. Take care. Bye.