Ambiguity & Hard Decisions – Why Am I Waiting for Certainty? (with Guest Martha May)

What if the hardest part of making a decision isn't choosing—it's being afraid you'll make the wrong decision? That fear keeps us waiting for certainty that rarely comes.

In this episode, Patti and Mark are joined by the Chief People Officer of Varsity Brands, Martha May, to explore why ambiguity feels so uncomfortable and why our brains crave certainty—even when it isn't possible. Together, they share practical ways to make thoughtful and wise decisions without having all the answers, including the 70/30 rule, taking smaller steps, and knowing when "good enough" is enough.

If you've ever found yourself overthinking, waiting for one more piece of information, or feeling stuck because the future isn't clear, this conversation will help you stop chasing certainty and start moving forward with greater confidence.

Please leave a review, subscribe, and share this with anyone who needs to hear this conversation! Check out Aren't Ya Tired Of on YouTube, and follow us on Instagram at arentyatiredof_social.  Send your topic suggestions to podcast@pattibjohnson.com or through DM on LinkedIn or Instagram.

Transcript

SPEAKER_03 0:08

Hi, everybody. Welcome to Aren't You Tired Of? And here's the thing Aren't you tired of ambiguity and uncertainty and not knowing what to do, not knowing where to begin? And today is the topic. All right. We're going to dive into this big topic of ambiguity and how when there's so much uncertainty in the world, in our life at work, what do we do about it?

SPEAKER_00 0:33

I'm ready to talk about it.

SPEAKER_03 0:34

What about you, Mark? What do you when you think about ambiguity? What do you think of?

SPEAKER_00 0:37

You know what? When I think about ambiguity, I'm thinking about uh a word picture that I've used um often in my career and when I'm, you know, helping give people guidance, and that's it's like swimming in dark water.

SPEAKER_01 0:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Right? Or running through tall grass or like a cornfield. Uh all I see is what's in front of me. I can't see up, I can't see sign. That's that's like being in ambiguity. So I'm I don't know what direction to go. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00

And it might be your career. You don't know what to do next. It might be I want to move, but I don't know where. It might be uh a lot of you it in big jobs in the Should I stay? Should I go? Should I go in big corporate jobs? It's like there's so much confusion what to do. That's right. And it's funny because um I want to introduce our guest. And our in our guest today is my friend Martha May. Um, Martha is an extremely successful executive, CPO at Varsity Brands. She was also a senior executive at Freeman Bell Helicopter, American Airlines. And what I could tell you all the wonderful accomplishments that Martha has. What have I missed, Martha? That's important for this group to know.

SPEAKER_04 1:39

Um, just that I've learned as much from failing as I have from succeeding. So thanks for framing it in the success way. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:47

So, Martha, you know about the F-word. Yeah. Failure.

SPEAKER_03 1:51

Yes. I do indeed.

SPEAKER_00 1:53

And the other F word. Yeah, there you go. That's right.

SPEAKER_03 1:56

I will say when we were talking about this, Martha was the first face that popped in my head. And I'll tell you why. And it's because I have seen Martha in action. And she is someone who, outside observer, I don't know how you're feeling inside, can deal with a lot of ambiguity, a lot of change. And she's smiling and she's cool and calm, at least outwardly. And um, and so I was thinking about who can give us that practical advice and perspective. And Martha's face popped right in. And so I emailed her. And so I'm curious for you, Martha. I guess I'll give a tip on when I emailed you and said, Martha, I think you're the perfect person for this. And her, here's her response, and I want to know why. Like, oh, actually, I really like ambiguity because it gives me options. Tell me about tell us about that. Like, yeah, why the we don't often talk about the positives of ambiguity. We talk about the fear of it. Tell tell us about how you think about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 2:58

It's funny. I think it was probably during my time at Bell Helicopter, we had a CFO there who was always um talking about like, don't make a decision before it's time. Because sometimes we feel real good about kind of making that decision and we don't really have all of the necessary inputs. And sometimes we just want to check that off our plate and move to the next thing. And if we will let it sort of sit for a minute, we might actually get to a better conclusion. And that that opened up my mind to the possibility that actually the sort of narrowing my choices too soon was not always so helpful. And it get just reframed ambiguity for me.

SPEAKER_03 3:44

So I got a question for you on that because um I also think of you, Martha, as someone who gets a lot done and uh moves fairly quickly. And I'm curious, how do you find that right balance between letting things sit a minute and not sit too long because then all of a sudden you're stuck? Yeah, you're procrastinating pausing. How do you find that right balance so you're effective?

SPEAKER_04 4:13

I love that term or procrastopausing. We just made it up. I'm totally gonna steal that one.

SPEAKER_02 4:19

You can't.

SPEAKER_04 4:20

I think you have to, it's all about the situation, right? Like there are some circumstances that require that decisiveness with whatever facts you have, as limited as they are, right?

SPEAKER_02 4:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 4:33

Um, but then there's some circumstances that just don't require it right then. And some of the discernment is around knowing the difference between them. So smart. Um yeah. I would tell you now that I'm in a private equity-backed organization like varsity brands, where you are moving at rapid fire pace, if you're not comfortable with ambiguity or you don't find a way to reframe it, you're not gonna be successful in this context because you can't know what you don't know and you've got to keep moving towards value creation.

SPEAKER_00 5:04

Yeah. That that is such um a powerful statement. I I have been talking, Martha, lately to you know, groups and teams about something. We live in this digital age, things are moving at pace, right? And you just have all of this information coming at you. Our brains are wired for certainty, right? Because we got to know fight or flight, right? I gotta be certain. But we're living in a time where I can't be certain really about anything because it changes so quickly. All I can do is bring you clarity for the next step. And I'm just curious, how um how can we reframe ambiguity in the way that you see it to move from that, I need this certainty, I gotta know this for sure, to hey, I I don't know anything, but this is what I'm clear on right now. How how do you uh balance that and and how would you think about that?

SPEAKER_04 5:58

There's two things that come to mind as you say that, Mark. And the first one is to say um when you need that so deeply and your context you're in gives it to you, you often find yourself repeating those decisions. Like they don't stick.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 6:19

I think that's worse for me than to move move. And I guess you know, it's it's probably manifested in the in the most constructive way in my current role. Because I arrived seven years ago and and I remember my my my boss said, I wouldn't, I've been told I need strategic HR. I wouldn't have, I wouldn't know it if it bit me. Like, what does that mean? And we had this great exchange, and it was it was like, I'll teach you that if you teach me this business. Because if you teach me this business, I'll show you strategic HR.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Nice.

SPEAKER_04 6:52

And I remember a conversation we had shortly after that where I said, Well, I think we might want to try this. And he goes, Well, try it. If it doesn't work, we'll adjust. And I thought, what freedom does. Great mentality. Great mentality. Not always the case. I came out of air space and defense, and when things have to stay in the air, right? Right, the precision matters. And so I think that's that's that certainty, though, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:16

You you think about the we were laughing in another episode about the NASA launch plan, right? You know, but there does have to be some certainty, you know, a certain level of that. So it it's a balance.

SPEAKER_03 7:28

Let let's talk about because we're getting into like that that uncertainty, that feeling that we all have, that ambiguity. The reason why we're talking about it today, whether it's at work or it's personal life or whatever, yeah. Why does ambiguity, why do you all think ambiguity creates so much discomfort for us at the beginning? And then we'll we'll shift into what how do we deal with it? But I'm curious, we always are big believers in know the why. Why is this happening in me?

SPEAKER_01 7:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 7:56

Uh, so I want to start there. What do you, Martha? What do you think?

SPEAKER_04 8:00

Um, I think it's fear. Like, and I I hearken back, um, Patty, I think I've shared a little bit of this story with you, but I hearken back to my my personal transformation that happened as I was previously married to a man and now I'm married to a woman and went through that like, and that was late in my 40s. Um and I remember thinking about all of the ways people knew me and how uncomfortable it was for them to accept me in my authentic self, right? And I used this book, and I have to give uh um World Blue credit for it. It was a 30 days to freedom kind of like workbook to do. And you asked yourself every single day for 30 days, why am I afraid? Well, what am I afraid of? Why am I afraid? Why is it okay to essentially let go of the fear? And so, in that moment in my life, I did the exercise for 30 days, and it wasn't as scary as I thought it was going to be. But in abstract, it becomes this big thing kind of break it down into its little pieces. So, whether that's in your personal life or that's in your professional life when you've got a big problem to solve.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 9:12

I think when you break it down to what do I know? What do I not know? What can I know? How would I go about learning that? Right. So that's what makes it manageable.

SPEAKER_03 9:22

So the fear, you basically that and you you and me and I have talked about this before, obviously. And I think um that was your way of taking what was that fear and say, I'm going to break this in, and I'm gonna understand. I'm sure you felt like you knew a lot more about yourself at the end of that exercise for multiple days for sure. So fear, that's a big one. Um, I think for me is we I think we overestimate the risks that we can't uh predict. If you're looking for that certainty, then you know, and it I'm I'm gonna not put in your situation too, Martha, where well I uh that is I don't even know what to expect. There's too much uncertainty there. And I want it to be certain.

SPEAKER_01 10:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:10

I want to know the plan. Those of us who are a lot of us listening, and I think all three of us probably a little bit in that type A crowd. We want to know what's gonna happen. We want the plan.

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 10:21

And in this lot of uncertainty, you're you're probably not gonna have it. Yeah?

SPEAKER_00 10:26

Yeah. Well, so I think a lot of us, uh, the the whole premise of this podcast is, you know, there's a whole lot that we're tired of, but we're trying to figure out ways to live and work better. And I know there's a lot of days where I get asked questions or, you know, do you know something? And and I do this thing where I eject. I was like, I don't, I don't know. Because it is too much unknown. It's too much. I I don't know. Ask somebody else, right? You know, and and I'll I'll abdicate it because I just I just can't right now.

SPEAKER_03 10:56

So and Martha, what else would you say? What are other reasons do you think in terms of why ambiguity is such a scary word for us besides control.

SPEAKER_00 11:09

Yeah, it's the loss of control.

SPEAKER_04 11:11

Yeah, the loss of control. Like if we feel like it's known, even if that isn't kind of the the preferred path, it's a known path, right? Like, so I can define it. Um I'm the the structure I'm comfortable with.

SPEAKER_03 11:25

I think that loss of control sometimes contributes meaning to yeah, and I you know it's funny because I think we all know people who have stayed in jobs, stayed in relationships, situations, locations they don't want to be in, but at least like you said, it's known. May not be ideal for me, but uh I know the situation and I'll pick that over the uncertainty of something different.

SPEAKER_00 11:54

Absolutely. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, you know, I was gonna say that uh one of the things we we talk about, and and we may have said in the last episode, um, and maybe the one before that, but uh when I think about ambiguity, and I'm hearing you, Martha, talk about your experiences and you know, you um, you know, thinking about um the who you are and and the the choices you're gonna make, you know, in your life to live and work well, you know, a lot of that has to come with like self-awareness. I gotta know who I am. I gotta know, and we say that self-awareness is actually the greatest gift you can give yourself. So, you know, I think our listeners out there are you gotta know why you're uncomfortable with ambiguity. Right. And so I'm wondering how did you uh kind of start to frame, oh, I'm very comfortable with change as opposed to um, eh, I'm not, you know, because there's probably someone listening that's like, you know, I never really thought about it that way, but now that you put it that way, this is who I am. So how did you kind of determine, no, I'm someone that can thrive in ambiguity?

SPEAKER_03 13:00

Your approach, what is your approach that's kind of worked for you in so much ambiguity?

SPEAKER_04 13:06

Um, I first of all, I'm not afraid to say I don't know. I I don't know that I always was that way. That's an evolved kind of church, right? Yeah to recognize I don't know the answer. And so if I don't feel like I've got the right solution, then it's worth getting some other thought partners in that process and taking a minute to figure it out without feeling the pressure of making that call. Um, and it's funny that self-awareness um it comes through the the numerous 360s you get where you were not self-aware, right?

SPEAKER_00 13:43

Right, right.

SPEAKER_04 13:43

You're like, whoa, I don't see that in myself.

SPEAKER_00 13:46

Who are they talking about? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 13:49

And so I think it's all those things sort of stockpiled over time. Yeah. A wonderful mentor of mine once said, um, learning doesn't come from doing, it comes from reflecting on doing. And I think I didn't learn that much later in my career because that's where the gift comes. Yeah, is you're gonna get some of these things wrong when you make the decision sometimes prematurely. And if you do the reflection and the learning, you step back and you go, okay, I've got that to take forward with me.

SPEAKER_00 14:20

That's awesome. And I can apply it. That's really, really powerful.

SPEAKER_03 14:23

Yes, for sure. And I'm curious too, Martha, if somebody is listening and they're like, I am swimming or running through the field of a lot of ambiguity. The tall grass. The tall grass is there. Whether it is I'm trying to make a career change, I'm trying to make a lifestyle change, whatever it may be, how would you encourage them? Is there a thought process? Is there a like here are some things I think that worked for me that I would recommend you try? Is there anything? Is that too simple of a question?

SPEAKER_04 14:56

No, no, no, no. And I'll apply it in a in a very extremely not simple circumstance because I think everybody can relate to this. Um, we all had probably the highest amount of ambiguity that we've ever seen in our lifetimes during COVID.

SPEAKER_01 15:11

Big time. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:13

Right. And for those of us who were leading, I mean, that's when this kind of moment of truth happened for the at least the human capital management space, right? Where it was suddenly very obvious that this was a fulcrum to be connected very much with value creation and and the bit commercial success of a business. And I remember I had a team of people I'd assembled around me to start kind of building our plan. And some of them were external medical advisors, some of them were, you know, exceptional program management and facilities folks that could help us just figure all this stuff we had never encountered out. And it was really asking some basic questions, like, what do we know?

SPEAKER_01 15:55

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 15:57

Like, and I know that sounds super simple, but like we we rarely these days stop long enough to ask for what do I know to be true?

SPEAKER_00 16:04

But that's that's the point. You're making it beautifully, that point around there was nothing that was certain, right? Back then. All I could do was help get enough information, insight, or someone that knew a little bit more than me to take the next step. Right. There's that clarity on just what's the next step, right?

SPEAKER_04 16:24

And Mark, your point on the next, it's it's and sometimes it's a super small next step. Tomorrow, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Absolutely. Right.

SPEAKER_04 16:32

Yeah. And giving yourself permission to just see whatever the kind of uh blinders allow for you to see in that dark place or dark space, yes, that you referred to earlier. And then it's really just making sure you're not artificially constraining yourself.

SPEAKER_01 16:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:50

So talk about that.

SPEAKER_03 16:52

Talk about that a little bit, artificially constraining yourself. How how might someone be doing that?

SPEAKER_04 16:58

Um, the not believing that the decision right is in part or in full in their hands is one way. I see that happen all the time.

SPEAKER_02 17:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:08

Um, and so as leaders, our job is to make sure we're being explicit about uh affording that decision right so that there is clarity uh amongst our teams that they really do have some of that empowerment and autonomy to make those calls.

SPEAKER_01 17:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 17:24

Um, and particularly on the stuff that isn't gonna make or break you, like let them learn on the cut through, just their kids. I have a 21-year-old daughter, and it's like, you know, make make mistakes, just make new ones, is what I often say to her. So sweet and do them early so that you can apply the learning later when the consequence is so important.

SPEAKER_03 17:44

Yeah, I love I heard um this for some reason this is reminding me of uh Billie Eilish was on uh Amy Polar's podcast, who I which I listen to regularly, and she made the point uh talking about experimenting and trying and you're gonna make mistakes. And her comment was a big part of making anything is allowing it to be bad before it's good. If you think you can't allow it to be bad for even one second, it'll stop you from ever doing anything big at all. And I love that because I think that just really resonates with me on this topic.

SPEAKER_00 18:20

Yeah. That's that's really good. Yeah, because you're gonna make some I'm fathoming on that for a second, because that that was really well said. It's it's like ambiguity, you know, it might be the neighbor to um, you know, confusion. Uh another neighbor, you know, maybe um resulting in procrastination. Yep, you know, uh, another neighbor, you know, is anxiety. You know, all those things maybe living in the same neighborhood. Yeah, in your head.

SPEAKER_04 18:53

The other neighbor could be innovation.

SPEAKER_00 18:55

Uh yeah. So let's pivot to that because you're talking about at your core, you know, what um, you know, Patty was telling me, you know, your superpowers being able to be in ambiguity and thinking opportunity.

SPEAKER_03 19:08

Yeah, talk about that, the upside of how you think it has advantaged you or it could advantage anyone of seeing the potential and ambiguity. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:19

I think it just gives you freedom to color outside of the lines in an environment where that isn't traditionally sort of afforded, yeah. And um, or encouraged, maybe even. And so thinking about it, and part of that is just how our minds work, right? If you can turn that from the neighbors that Mark, you were just talking about that are kind of scary, right? Anxiety and all those, and you turn it into opportunity, it's like, okay, then if I think about this differently, yeah, what's possible?

unknown 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:49

That I didn't imagine possible. And and if that's worth pursuing, what would I need to overcome in order to get there?

SPEAKER_00 19:59

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I I love that you just used the term possible. I I had to send an email to somebody today, and there were a lot of questions around this topic, and it was just a lot, we just don't know, right? And I said, let me go and check on this, that, and the other thing so we can determine what's possible.

SPEAKER_02 20:18

Right.

SPEAKER_00 20:18

And I use that, yeah. I use that phrase a lot because if you if you think about possibility, you're in that space of innovate. I can, I'm not gonna keep myself in the box. Yeah, because what's possible might actually sit outside the box.

SPEAKER_03 20:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 20:36

Oh, and with the AI and everything that's transforming at such a rapid pace right now, like the the today's way is just gonna be dramatically different.

SPEAKER_03 20:48

It is dramatically. And I think, you know, the what's possible, uh I think now we're listening, we're kind of shifting into some tips, things that we would encourage if you're feeling I'm in ambiguity. I I think one of the I'm a big options person. No boundaries. What are all the possibilities? Don't pre-screen. Oh, well, that would never work. And oh, I don't think I'm up for the I'm not the right person. Stop, stop, stop. What are all of the options available to you? And if you can really think about that, that can also help you think I'm not gonna pre-screen, but there might be something here that, huh, that might work. And uh, so that's one, I think, in terms of being open and thinking about the possibilities. Uh, what other things do you think in terms of approach?

SPEAKER_04 21:34

I think breaking it down into its bite-sized pieces is another way to sort of just make it manageable. Yeah. Um, that's a practical way I I do it, and not being um afraid to phone a friend, so to speak.

SPEAKER_03 21:49

Yeah. Yeah. And in COVID, like you said, that's what we did. Right. Small steps. Well, we can see through tomorrow. So we're gonna be doing this, and then when we know more, we'll change it. Yeah. That same mindset. of small steps one at a time. What else you guys other other things that might help people in times of feeling overwhelmed by ambiguity. I'll throw one out while you guys are thinking. Yeah. We talk a lot about is a decision permanent or is it in is the door locked after you make it? Or is it a swinging door? Uh can I try this? And if it doesn't work, oh well we'll we'll regroup and we'll be no worse off than if we did nothing. You know that you know so I think that's you know how permanent is this decision? Most decisions aren't.

SPEAKER_01 22:36

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 22:36

They aren't irreversible, right?

SPEAKER_01 22:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:40

What else? Um well and if you think about that, that's uh sort of akin to kind of feeling like you got to find the perfect sequencing.

SPEAKER_02 22:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 22:51

And there isn't a perfect sequencing. There's just an optimal for what I know right now. And how do I apply that and then adjust, right?

SPEAKER_01 23:00

Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:01

I've often used a rock wall as an analogy for a kind of career ladder. Yeah. And it gives you that sort of it there's no kind of permanent to that decision, right? You look when you're standing down at the bottom, you think, okay, is my goal the top?

SPEAKER_01 23:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:18

And then you sort of map out visually your path. But as soon as you get on the wall, you move. You have to go laterally you sometimes have to go down to go back up. And so I think that's what we have to think about our decisions in that way that it's not there's not a permanence to them that you can adjust.

SPEAKER_01 23:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 23:35

You also mentioned Martha or earlier and you're talking about your story about um you said something about um you know 70-30. It's going to be I'm going to get it part of it. How much do I know? Uh maybe I'm going to know about 60-70% of what I need to know and that's going to have to do. Talk about that making decisions, whether it be at personal or at work when you're just not going to know everything you want to know but you got to move anyway.

SPEAKER_04 24:06

You know, it used to be the 80-20 rule now I think we we know less so it's the 70 30 we can science to it right um and you you sit back and you you just recognize that um things are going to change but for you to keep putting one step kind of in front of the other and attempting and trying you'll learn something from that and the next time you'll get better. And so I think of it as like over my career pattern recognition has gotten stronger to be able to see those patterns at play and be able to call that ball sort of like a great quarterback. Yeah I'm I'm a big Green Bay fan so George is my guy. And like they see the patterns it's like Caitlin Clark on the basketball court for sure like that's that's when you know like excellence is when you start leveraging those patterns. It doesn't mean all those passes or all those plays are perfectly run. It just means I know enough to know it's worth making that that that taking that chance.

SPEAKER_03 25:09

Yes. Oh absolutely and I think the thing you're pointing out too is for the planners the people who are listening and they love the perfect plan, pattern recognition means you're not just following your plan and you did it and then you did it and then you did it. It's also looking at what did I learn this week? What's changing in high change environments you know what did I learn? Or if you're trying to decide do I want to move to this new location or change careers, I'm out talking to some people I'm visiting, I'm doing, I'm gathering information and instinct and I'm getting smarter and smarter and smarter not that you laid out the steps and you're on step seven now it's eight. I mean I'm a pattern recognition which I I understand you are good at that Martha is requires some observation insight and you have to know yourself to Mark's earlier point that self-awareness in order to then be able to apply that and understand what you're seeing in others that will have import and be important for you.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

You know Martha I get the impression and and you'll you know correct me if I'm wrong but you're comfortable with change. I I think to be comfortable in ambiguity you got to be comfortable with things are going to change. They're going to move at pace. An insight that I had about myself that um as Patty and I were talking about you know this episode she said maybe you'd resonate with this I can change and pivot in my work outside of home. I'm I'm happy I'll I'll change something for you whether you ask me to or not I I'm happy with that. But at home I've got to have things in place I got to have my space got to have my blanket I gotta you know I gotta have my thing predictability I have to have it somewhere. And during COVID the way that this came up to you brought up this earlier is um our home actually um we had a big water issue and had to move out you know um mold everywhere you know it was behind the walls so we couldn't see it um but my wife was sick and we couldn't figure out why long story we figured out so we had to move out we moved during COVID from hotel to hotel to hotel and then finally stayed in like you know the you know kind of like one of those corporate apartments. But I couldn't not only was COVID going on and then some other personal things going on in my life and loss and some of those things, but I was miserable because I didn't have my comforts. So I'm wondering that was my big aha moment that in certain instances way comfortable with ambiguity and change but I've got to have some things that are steady for me. How how does that story resonate with you or and what would you say similar or no or totally uh Mark and it's interesting because we had somebody who just uh essentially resigned um and I asked some probing questions and ultimately discovered in that dialogue that they had a whole bunch of ambiguity and chaos at work and they were dealing with a whole bunch of ambiguity and chaos at home.

SPEAKER_04 28:24

Yeah and under and this person's an exceptional sort of over the top type A like gets the job of like four people done right like phenomenal you don't ever want to lose this kind of talent right yeah and we worked it out to where we could we could give the person a leave which is great right so but what it made me think because I got asked questions by others like do you think she's coming back and I said well if we're gonna have to solve the stuff that's creating the challenges at work while she's gone or no I don't think she's coming back because she's gonna solve the stuff at home right she's not gonna want to reinsert herself back into this context if we haven't solved things that are within our control. Yeah but it reminded me that like we just need stability somewhere yeah and the most uncomfortable ambiguity is when it's pervasive. I can't even imagine what you went through Mark during that time.

SPEAKER_03 29:18

Like you just you need something to anchor to yeah yeah yeah for sure yep yeah and I think that um that's good for a listener to think about where can I get that stability? If I need it where is it for me where is it for me? And um you know I I want to ask that a related question Martha and that is we are all are surrounded by people we have maybe different tolerance level for ambiguity you are someone who workwise comfortable even might prefer it. Options choices how do you coach advise other people in your life who maybe that's just not what they prefer how does some how do you coach someone to say how can you get more comfortable we've talked about some tips here but I'm just curious what what's that conversation like it's really knowing them and their preferences to start with and then what looks like a little tiny non-risk to you is like a huge risk.

SPEAKER_04 30:23

Huge risk and acknowledging that particularly if you're in a leadership position uh to encourage them to test and try and experiment but their experiments much may be you know much smaller than your experiments initially because of the level of comfort there.

SPEAKER_01 30:39

Yes.

SPEAKER_04 30:40

But giving them permission and encouragement to try it on a smaller scale um so they can you know build the reps and success with it so they can get to a little bit bigger risk.

SPEAKER_01 30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 30:50

Yeah. So kind of meeting them where they are and just encouraging a little bit of movement. I also think you're you're saying you have to at least listen and be aware enough to know where are they on on this topic? You know, how are they doing in ambiguity and in the change that's that you know that you're facing um let's let's shift a little bit and and I would like to talk about we've we've given a lot of examples here um but I would like to talk a little bit about what do we think are some of the best tips, words of encouragement doesn't have to be just one but someone who is listening going I'm this is hard for me and I need to hear you guys all seem relatively comfortable what what is the one or what are the one or two things you think our encouragement to them would be to try write it down.

SPEAKER_04 31:48

Like there's just such power in writing it down. Journaling yeah journaling um you know writing down what you're concerned about what's holding you back like because it's it takes a little bit of the power away.

SPEAKER_00 32:05

Yeah I love that yeah you're looking at the words on the page and like well that's not that scary I can try that yes yeah yes um what do you think Mark well I was when I was thinking about ambiguity and for some reason um I went into um the whole space of preserving and um actually nurturing your mental health around this and it's almost like um I know I was um with a therapist at one point in time that you know did this whole t technique where you call it out right you know I see you ambiguity. Yeah right you know not today ambiguity. Yeah it's almost like a physical presence yeah you make it there so that it starts to be exactly what you said Martha you call it out you're writing it down then it's out outside of you so that now you can start dealing with it and um I'm pointing like you know the people that are listening can see me but ambiguity's over there in the corner. And I like your ambiguity I see you. Yeah it's like you know some people say not today Satan right it's like not today ambiguity you're not doing it to me. Yeah. Right. So I think I like the point of writing it down, calling it out naming it, you know, whatever it is, listeners it I see you anxiety, you know, I I see you procrastination and not today. Not today.

SPEAKER_03 33:23

You know you know I think related to that is it makes me think of you know we know when it comes to change and ambiguity one of the biggest stresses is when our expectations are way out of sync with reality. Yeah. And so I always I for myself and just in coaching advising others stop expecting it's going to clear up here pretty soon. Things are going to get calmer um once we get this this one thing finished, you know, come August and boy is it going to be smooth sailing. It is never going to be that and even in your personal life I mean you you get you deal with one thing and then you got something else coming. And so I think that it expect that there is going to be ambiguity ambiguity is going to be in the corner. Maybe not going to be driving the train today but it is going to be there. Yeah and just acknowledge that's a part of life today and I don't know if that helps or not but for me I have to remind myself what I sometimes like a certainty I like plan. There's not going to be a clear one on this one you know it helps not having that dissonance that dissonance that feeling I think so I I from what both of you are saying I just get to the place of just acknowledging it.

SPEAKER_04 34:34

And you know I was talking to someone the other day and they're like oh you know it's it's gonna calm down soon I'm like will it no it's not gonna I was like will it it's not gonna you know I don't I don't know that it's gonna you know so that should be the the kind of encouragement or fuel if you will for folks who are really super uncomfortable in this space to just try something.

SPEAKER_03 34:55

Yeah try something new try something you haven't done before and and tell somebody else about it so that you're not alone in that process and the journey right because your point Patty I believe that it's only going to get more ambiguous in our in our world and in our work and so if we can get a little bit better at managing through that it will have uh Mark to the important point you made a a more positive effect on our mental well-being and your confidence yeah but you build your self-confidence that I'm I'm building that muscle you know a little bit also I think an encouragement for those we talked about that um you know anytime you're feeling uncertain or you prefer maybe the predictable even though it's not ideal over the uncertain you know sometimes I think it's helpful to think you know are you giving your external circumstances are they at the wheel are they driving your car and you're sitting in the backseat versus what you're saying you know Martha all your examples try it. Get out there give it a try experiment do something to move yourself forward you know what other things are you guys thinking of tips for ambiguity anything else Martha that we haven't mentioned that you have on your mind um not it's we've kind of touched on it but it's more of just look around you who do you see that that navigates this kind of uncertainty and ambiguity really well yeah important like you can well and go have a conversation and say here's what I'm working through yeah what am I missing yeah right like I I love that kind of dialogue where you're like here's what I see these are the facts that I believe to be true.

SPEAKER_04 36:57

This is what I see in the circumstances am I missing anything and other outside in kind of different angled views can help a lot.

SPEAKER_03 37:06

Yeah and I think too poke a little bit is that really true what you're saying are those facts are they really facts or are they just something you're bringing with you from 10 years ago that may not may not fit I think you're where you're saying Martha I love the is have a sounding board. If you know this is hard for you who in your life can be your sounding board on making this a calmer experience for you and and you you can get ambiguity can sit in the corner and you could be smiling at it you know and that person can help you see where you are calling something that isn't a fact a fact. That's right. Absolutely okay I'm gonna try to summarize you tell you tell me what I've missed here because I think this is a really important topic and it's a big topic. So we talked about having a sounding board small steps try some things experiment a little bit don't worry about oh I'm gonna make a fatal mistake um look at all the options maybe the ambiguity is giving you some possibilities that you wouldn't have had otherwise um be a we didn't say it quite this way but for those of you master planners out there shorten it up baby it's gonna maybe 24 hours that's as far as you can go and that's gonna be good enough clarity that's all we need the best step right that's the next best step yeah um what other any other just have I missed in summarizing any any other key points from today you know I don't think so I don't I don't think so but I was actually typing the note down because I did not want to forget it.

SPEAKER_00 38:52

And um Martha I I'm gonna steal your analogy of the the path you know it's standing at the bottom of a rock wall right and so you know if you've ever done that right you look up no matter how high you want to go what's your goal uh what are you trying to accomplish and you start to climb but the path that you might see that might not be the path you take and you may have you may have to um pivot change in the moment right go left go down one step at a time yeah and that's one move at a time and that's that's a big aha that I I actually had to write down because I'm like I don't want to forget that because I'm certain I I've done this before I'm gonna get to the top but the way you get to that goal may look really different each time.

SPEAKER_04 39:41

Absolutely absolutely when you're right on top of it Mark your perspective is entirely different than when you were standing at the top looking up.

SPEAKER_00 39:50

That's right. Yes I I'll I I always love to anchor to moments that that that matter and I was just talking to a team today where I was saying let's make sure we're looking at the forest and not just the trees right that that old analogy right and it's kind of you know when you're right on top of it all I can see is the bark all I see is the tree but it's big forest you know if you have that sounding board somebody can help you got to have somebody to pull you back.

SPEAKER_03 40:16

I want to thank I do think Martha those of you that don't know Martha to me and I have worked with a lot of people Martha is a walking example of just somebody who can deal with a lot of change a lot of ambiguity and does it gracefully calmly with a smile and she has a sense of humor. I mean all the time through all this chaos. And I will add this is not the reason she's here our dogs are BFFs and went to summer camp together. So that really is another another reason why that's that's special you know should I I got a fun fact. No Daisy and Zoe are yeah wait so uh thank you Martha you have been a delight and um can we appreciate the inspiration example and all that you're doing in your career and all that we've seen. So you're out there doing big things and great things. So thank you so much for participating. Appreciate you absolutely okay tell Tara hi okay bye take care