Sinister

This week, hosts Frank and Andrew discuss the 2012 occult horror Sinister! What happens when you move your entire family into a murder house and don't tell them?! Please join us for a scene by scene break down of this iconic film.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:12

Welcome to You Killed Clyde. I'm your host Frank, and today we're gonna be discussing what happens when you put your work first and you move your entire family into a murder house. Folks, today we're talking about the 2012 film Sinister. This film is about a true crime writer who discovers home movies in his new house, linking his current case to an unknown serial killer active since the 1960s. Folks, I'd like to introduce you to my dear co-host Andrew. Andrew, how are you?

SPEAKER_00 0:50

Hey, Frank. I'm good this morning. I got my uh coffee here. I got this movie fresh in my mind. I did not rely on my memory from seeing it in theaters 13 years ago. I gave it a recent rewatch. Uh, how are you doing today?

SPEAKER_01 1:05

I'm good, I'm good. I um I am I'm excited to talk about this movie because I I believe when I first watched this movie, I think I thought it sucked. But I think like this time around I enjoyed it a lot more. And one thing I really appreciated about it was the cinematography. Like, I didn't realize like how beautifully this thing was filmed, and how like kind of profoundly disturbing this movie is. This movie is not like a fun romp.

SPEAKER_00 1:44

I've been wanting to like when you ask the g like your general horror fan on the internet, um, you know, what are your some of your favorite horror movies? Sinister comes up all of the time. Um, I think it's solidified itself as uh one of the greats, and I've been excited since we started this podcast. I have been excited to talk about this movie um since yeah, since we started. Uh, but I will say there's a couple things in this movie that for me I don't remember um disliking originally, but I actually didn't work for me uh on a rewatch. But overall, still love this movie.

SPEAKER_01 2:22

I don't know if you caught like the parallels to long legs, because it the idea here is that like an evil enters the home in a less obvious way and completely destroys it from the inside, and it's one of the family members.

SPEAKER_00 2:40

Yeah, did you catch that? No, I I did not draw any parallels to long legs, but in in my defense, I I I think I need to rewatch Long Legs. I don't know why when I right now, if I look back on Long Legs, I can't remember much about it, and I don't know why it didn't stick with me, but I think I remember leaving Long Legs not being overly impressed with it, but maybe I need to re-watch and really focus on it.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

I think you know what's funny. When I first watched Long Legs, I definitely didn't I was of the camp that I I really, really, really liked it until the ending. And then after thinking about it for like, you know, subsequent month or so, post-watching it, I actually like really started to appreciate the film, and I appreciated the whether you want to call it like a demonic presence or an occult or whatever it is, I would kind of solidly put it in that camp of films, which I really, really like. And so with this movie, I started to think like I I like the idea of the pagan deity, I like the idea of the occult. I really wish they explored the cult members or or just introduced us a little bit to there's a couple good scenes here where they talk heavily about the lore, and we'll kind of get into that, but they don't really explore the inception of the boogie and like that sort of stuff. And maybe this isn't the kind of movie that does that. I don't know.

SPEAKER_00 4:16

Uh, this is what one reason why I cherish this film. I have I I don't know if you get this. So I I had this feeling recently when I watched Undertone, but when I watch Undertone, when I watch this movie, whenever whenever I watch a movie and it's an it's a character in that movie either listening to a recounted of a paranormal tale that's terrifying, or they are watching uh you know a snuff film in this case, I get this thing where like my eyes get watery and like I get goosebumps all over my body. Wow. And it's this this awesome feeling that's like this is actually so freaky. Um, and I remember the first time I watched this in theaters, watching those those tapes for the first time that those hit like a truck if you haven't seen it.

SPEAKER_01 5:00

It's strange. I I agree with you because like while I was writing the um the script for this podcast, I actually kind of had to take a break after the pool scene because I was like, I forgot in this film, just even by the 20-minute mark, we've seen two of them. Yeah, it's like I forgot like how much in quick succession they're showing, like he pretty much just pops one in after another after another. And so I guess in my my recollection, like these happen more prolonged over a period of time. So I was kind of like getting a little bit like it wasn't a fun feeling, like I didn't feel I think that's the thing about this movie. It's like, I guess I didn't enjoy myself watching this movie, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 5:43

I I think of the films we've covered, this film is very serious, it takes itself seriously, the subject matter is incredibly dark. Um, and there's not really other than a conversation with his wife, which made me laugh a bit. Um, we'll talk about that later.

SPEAKER_01 6:00

Uh where he just gaslights the shit out of her constantly.

SPEAKER_00 6:04

I gotta I have a lot to say about his the way he argues with it. But um that yeah, this movie is very out of out of uh Ethan Hawk's repertoire of uh straight genre films, horror films. This is this is definitely top dog for that kind of movie that is just dark and seedy, and the ambient this movie's ambient soundtrack's uncomfortable. Oh, yeah, um so good. It's lovely, and I yeah, anyways, it it is you this movie's you can't really have like this movie's very enjoyable for me to watch. I love watching it, it's it's a good movie, but yeah, it's not there's not fun here.

SPEAKER_01 6:43

No, it's not like a fun joy. Like, I felt like when I was doing like Friday the 13th, part seven, The New Blood, which not a lot of people listen to a lot. If I have to watch a girl in a white jumpsuit follow a couple around in the woods for some reason for another hour, I actually kind of felt like that was more fun, like it was fun and like campy, even though like arguably, like there are some like pretty brutal deaths, even evil dead, right?

SPEAKER_00 7:09

Evil dead is evil dead is serious, but like the kills are sometimes over the top. But it's it's a lot of fun to watch that movie. The the the blood spatter is so much fun. This movie's not that way at all.

SPEAKER_01 7:21

One thing I also noticed with this film, another thing I liked, but again, like profoundly disturbing, is the minute this family moves into their home, they're doomed. Like they seal their fate the second they step through the threshold, and there's nothing they can do, like it's toast for them, it's like it's so like it's so funny.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

You just saying that right now, I just got chills you saying that because it's so funny. That made me immediately jump to the end in this film, and holy cow, that is not more true than you. You couldn't have said that more like succinctly, I guess, because at the at the end of this movie, Ethan, like Ellison realizes that he realizes the moment they moved into that house and then they move again. Either way, they they were they he was he doomed his entire family from the start from for by doing that.

SPEAKER_01 8:18

It was all about like familial neglect causing terrible outcomes. So it was like at the you know, he doesn't care about his wife and kids, his pursuit of like another moment, another 15 minutes of fame, as his wife calls it, puts his family directly in danger. Like, and and even throughout the film, like and and I cannot wait to get your because I almost want to play a game where I'm like, What should Ellison have done here? Because it's kind of ambiguous as to whether he should take action or not at some of these parts in the movie where I'm like, dude, like what the fuck are you doing? Like, your family's in danger and you don't care, like you just want to be famous.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Yeah, and I think one I've said this, I was watching this uh with my girlfriend, and and I said this repeatedly throughout the film. I this is one of those horror films where, like, the supporting spouse, I find she's so amazing. I find Tracy in this movie, the uh the I the actress, I forget her name, I'm sorry. Um, but uh his wife is so like she doesn't play like that bitchy spouse who's like trying to drag him down. She's so pragmatic in her criticism of what he's doing and his descent into folly and madness, and she every time she brings something up to him, it's always in the most like like caring way, and she's trying to like frame it for him that, like, dude, this isn't like I've never seen you like this before, it's going really bad. We need to leave, and he's like still trying to justify it because he's he he knows that if he just gets through the swamp, on the other side of the swamp is the pot of gold, right?

SPEAKER_01 9:59

Yeah, but it's like that whole like adage around like you're I think she is correct in in assuming that he he I think he jeopardizes the familial balance, and I think we see that a lot in films where like and I started to actually think about this, even like parallels, everything to me is like a parallel tonight right on the street, FYI. But like how parents cause the turmoil of the kids in the movie and like take zero responsibility for their actions, and like how true is that in real life?

SPEAKER_00 10:38

Yeah, there's like there's a there's a couple of good scenes where you can see that he's his work is all that really matters in the moment because there's a cute moment where his Ashley brings him uh a coffee and he gets a phone call at the same time, he's like, Thanks, and then shuts the door in her face, and she's just left. There's a little like the shot lingers on her for like a half second, a second or so of her just standing in front of a closed door. And I think it's like such an apt like summary of what he's doing to the family.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

Exactly. Another another great moment is, and I didn't put this in like the body, but I it's when Tracy says, Hey, I'm putting the kids to bed, and he goes, Give them a kiss for me. Like he he can't even like get up and like go. And that part of me is like wondering, like, maybe he really needs to isolate in order to be creative.

SPEAKER_00 11:28

Artists can be weird, maybe that's a thing, but I think she kind of I think that's kind of um either said or implied via some of the dialogue early on that she even says, like, before it gets bad, I think she like he's obviously with his like his um the the investigation boards he has up. I think he very much does isolate himself when he goes into this into his work of uh the true crime.

SPEAKER_01 11:56

Also, dude, do that somewhere else. Like, don't put it into your house, asshole. I hate that character.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

Yeah, he's I his he's a channel character. I just I love Eden Hawk and I love that uh yeah, me too. He's been one of my favorites like my entire life, simply because he's an actor who like will do your big dramas or your like really high profile movies, but he obviously loves doing genre films. Um, and he's been in so many good horror films from like or even thrillers, like taking lives and and with Angelina Jolie to like Daybreakers to that purge film. Um, he's been in a lot of just cool stuff.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

You know what's weird? He kind of like obviously he was a humongous actor in the 90s with like reality bites, etc. And he was like a heartdrog. He kind of like went away for a little while, and then he kind of came back and did like, do you know the movie Predestination?

SPEAKER_00 12:53

Oh my gosh, I was just gonna say, like, I think that's probably his lowest. That's love that movie. What? I've never I've never seen I've heard to stay away from the movie.

SPEAKER_01 13:03

I think it's like maybe because I was drunk, I was like watching it. That's probably why. It was just like this is truly like an onion of a movie. Like, this is awesome.

SPEAKER_00 13:13

Are you just like an orange?

SPEAKER_01 13:15

No, no, no. No, no, okay. All right, let's get into it. Okay, today Andrew and I are gonna break down this film scene by scene. If you haven't seen it in the last 13 years, it's not our fault. Like watch it and watch it.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Watch this movie.

SPEAKER_01 13:33

If someone told me I need to give like a disclaimer, and I'm like, I think if the movie's over two years old and you're listening to this podcast, it's probably because you've seen the movie and you want to hear it.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Like I would say 10 out of 10 times people, when they see the tagline, we discussed Sinister, people are gonna they're watching it because they've seen it and they want to hear about it.

SPEAKER_01 13:56

Anyway, if you have a couple minutes, go take a peek and come back and listen to the pod. All right, let's get into some light background on Sinister. I also got feedback.

SPEAKER_00 14:08

Wait, some light background on what? Sinister stopped talking English.

SPEAKER_01 14:16

Okay, all right. All right, so directed by Scott Derrickson and written by Robert Cargill, Sinister hit the scene in 2012 and earned its reputation, literally, Andrew, as one of the scariest movies of all time. And I'll get into how they calculated that in a moment. Um, allegedly, writer Robert C. Cargill got the idea for the script from a nightmare he had after watching The Ring. In his nightmare, Cargill walks up into the attic of his home and sees a strange box filled with Super Ake film reels. Loading up the projector, he sits and watches in horror as the reel shows the image of an entire family being hung by a tree. So this movie, its entire opening scene and legendary premise is from essentially a dream.

SPEAKER_00 15:04

That's terrifying.

SPEAKER_01 15:07

And that's a dream you had? Jesus, man. I mean, I've had worse, let's let's face it. So dedicating himself to sharing the horrific site with moviegoers worldwide, he kept it alive in his thoughts for nine long, quote, mentally strenuous years. And he says it took me a long time to find the right story. So suffice to say, this not only influenced the film, but one of the film's more iconic death scenes. So after sitting on it for nine long years, Kargle wanted to create a villain in the movie, and he wanted the villain to be scary. And Andrew, later on, I would really like to get into if you found this character to be effective. I did not find it to be effective, but I would love to hear your thoughts when we when we get there. But he wanted to create a new version of the classic Boogeyman and call it Mr. Boogie. His idea was the creature would represent a sort of like sinister Willy Wonka-like figure and be alluring to children, but ultimately he abandoned this because it was like too silly. And again, I would argue that it was still too silly, right?

SPEAKER_00 16:32

Yeah, I'll go into this more later. But um on rewatch, I found the kids in this movie uh didn't work for me, but um, I'll go into that more later.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Can I also say that I the more we do this podcast, and uh, like I said, I recently watched The Mummy, I think child actors need to be like completely removed from film. Like I just don't find them to be like effective. Okay, the kid in weapons was amazing, and I think some kids um poltergeist, like Carol Ann was amazing. Like, I think some are pretty good. I think you're correct. Like, I think the kids kind of took me out a little, especially at the end in this one, and we'll get into it.

SPEAKER_00 17:18

Yeah, this I don't know if it's a makeup issue, I don't know if it's a directing issue or it's a facial expression issue.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

I don't know what it is, but um it's called A Kid Doesn't Have the Life Experience to Convey Fear.

SPEAKER_00 17:30

Like, I really try to like whenever I watch a movie, I think a lot of people are quick to pull themselves out of the movie and say this is ridiculous. Um, but for me, I really try and give it, I really try to immerse myself, I try and get in the zone, and I allow movies to get away with a lot of shit. Um, but the kid actors in this, I I just there's a few shots, especially I'll talk about later, um, where I'm like, this this was really forced and did not work for me. But anyways, bagul though, you asked me, you talked about Bagul being or Mr. Boogie being scary. Um I I think he's I think it's great in some of the earlier shots, and I don't think he's overused, but yeah, I don't think he was terrifying, especially by the end of the movie.

SPEAKER_01 18:17

Do you know what he reminds me of? He reminds me of Scary Movies parody of the Saw figure on the tricycle.

SPEAKER_00 18:26

I yeah, that's fair. I actually I really like his makeup, and I I think overall they did a good job of his face. Um uh but again, I only say this because I'm looking fondly on the first half of this movie. I don't think it's as great uh once we get by the get to the ending.

SPEAKER_01 18:48

Okay, all right. Rather than a demon, Cargill decided to create more of a pagan deity figure and place it outside the scope of any one religion. So apparently Cargill scoured the internet for an image of a ghoul that would speak to him, eventually landing on an image entitled Natalie, and decided, what if it's this guy? Purchased the rights to the image for a cool$500. So, according to critic Jack Pooley, and I agree with this, the Bugle's design was rather silly and is oft cited as Sinister's big glaring flaw because the buildup to his reveal is so brilliantly disturbing by comparison. And I agree wholeheartedly with the summarization, and I wonder if that's why we seldom see him in the film.

SPEAKER_00 19:38

Yeah, I I think it's so it's so great when he starts finding him in the the in the shots. Like I think that's really cool, but I think this is definitely one of those cases I brought before where you don't show the monster, and this is a movie that might over show the monster or the the dark bean in this case.

SPEAKER_01 20:00

I don't know if they overshow it, but like I think you're right. Like, I think when the boogle appears in the videos, like off to the side or in the pool, I find those to be pretty cool and like a little bit freaky. I think it's when he like pops his head in the camera to scare the actor. It's like that that I'm not into.

SPEAKER_00 20:23

I think this film, this film on a few times falls victim to having to scare the audience with a jump scare. And there's like two or three scenes I can remember specifically, and two out of three of them are involving the boogeyman who like kind of pops his head from the side, like, who?

SPEAKER_01 20:41

Yeah, um Hey kids.

SPEAKER_00 20:44

So like I just it's it's obviously for the audience's benefit, not the it's not like lore-wise, I don't think it's great that they do that, but you know, I digress.

SPEAKER_01 20:54

Do you know what the scariest fucking jump scare in this film is? And Ethan Hawk actually reacts to it is the lawnmower scene. Oh my god, yeah, it's like that that freaked that. I don't know, it was filmed in a way where like your attention is so drawn to the light source that when the family members suddenly appear, you're like, Whoa, and then his reaction was my reaction, like it was awesome.

SPEAKER_00 21:22

The direction of the snuff films is impeccable. Like, it's uh those films, especially. I mean, you talked I've actually had an experience where I've talked to someone, hey, like, oh you know, Sinister's great. It's like, yeah, and like you'll always get in one of their lines that lawnmower video. Oh my god, it's like I remember watching that in theaters. It's like, yeah, that that scene is a standout for a reason. You know what's funny?

SPEAKER_01 21:47

In my memory, I only recall there ever being one video, and when another one popped in, I was like, What's going on?

SPEAKER_00 21:55

Yeah, I I actually forgot about uh I think I forgot about one of Like the knife, I think the the family, the family killings of the knife. I think I forgot about that one.

SPEAKER_01 22:05

Oh, yeah. That one was kind of like that was very manhunter. Okay. Speaking of director and influence, enter Scott Derrickson. So Derrickson started off his directing career with the exorcism of Emily Rose, which I really enjoyed. But he followed it up with 2008's The Day the Earth Stood Still, which I did not enjoy. So allegedly, over a series of white Russians, Cargill introduced the concept of the film, which at the time he referred to as simply found footage. This got Derriksen immediately excited, and it wasn't long before the two started a massive collaboration. I'm also assuming they were very drunk, and that's why he was very excited. But I think this kind of director won't go into like why he is so unique in a second. I think he enjoys the challenge of a lower budget, high creative environment. And I think he just kills this movie. So the two began working on the project in January 2011. So according to Cargill, working with Derricson offered him an opportunity to explore these amazing ideas for scares and for ramping up the tension. Going on to say Derrickson knows exactly how to make something really scary and prolong that over a period of time. And Ethan Hawke, who had later worked with Derrickson on the black phone, not only trusted Derrickson's vision and horror expertise, but credits him with his focus on acting quality and thematic substance rather than cheap jump scares. So I want to just delve into the look and feel of the film because I believe this is what sets it apart as like deeply thematic and engaging. According to the cinematographer Chris Kore from a 2021 article by Ryan Scott, the director and I had a couple main references that were really our template. There's this painter Caravaggio. Scott and I really wanted dark areas in the room. We wanted blackness, not just darkness. So if you look at Caravaggio paintings, there are large fields of blackness with no detail in the shadows. And we were really looking for something like that. And I want to take a second here because, and I'll reference this later, but there are a couple scenes, in my opinion, that like completely mimic. I was looking up Caravaggio paintings, and the scene where the family has dinner early on in the film, like really what you're seeing is an isolated view of the family among complete blackness. And if you look at the Caravaggio paintings, they're almost identical to the film. So I think that like they were really able to achieve something unique that quite honestly really met the inspiration. But I also haven't seen this anywhere else. Like it was beautifully done. And this was practical. This was like done through lighting techniques. This wasn't like done in post. This was like the way that they had let lit the set created this environment. And I think that's what's so cool about this film. All of the home movie scenes were actually shot on eight millimeter film to give them a gritty realistic look. The whole aesthetic was inspired by Faces of Death, as well as the Zebruder film, which captured the assassination of JFK. According to Noor, I always wanted to cover everything digitally, but they were like, no, let's just shoot Super 8, and we did that. I kept thinking we should always cover ourselves by doing a take on digital just in case something went wrong. The last scene we shot, which was the bloody hallway, a lot of it was out of focus. At first, we thought, oh God, it's a disaster. But as we looked at it, it looked so cool. We were like, no, this is great, actually. So it was just a mistake that ended up looking really good. So all of the Super 8 films were actually shot on Super 8, and they were all filmed before the actual movie started filming. So this was like an effort that they did prior to, which I think is really cool. And I think the films do have like, I think that's why the grainy effect looks so good because they were actually shot on real Super 8 film. I think that's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 26:25

And that's I think that's essential too. The the the snuff films in this are so good, and that's actually that makes sense too, because it's just in incredible the the aesthetic of these movies and the way like we talked about the the the lawnmower one, like the car one, like it's they're so unsettling, and I think that authenticness of the filming style really lends it to oh, there's there was an actual person there filming these murders.

SPEAKER_01 26:54

Do you have a favorite, like one that you think is the scariest?

SPEAKER_00 27:00

Oh, it's it's the the lawnmower one, I think, but I love the ambient soundtrack that plays or love the soundtrack that plays during the car, the garage fire. I think that's my my other one because the music is so unsettling.

SPEAKER_01 27:17

And we're pretty clear that like the least effective is the slashing of the throat.

SPEAKER_00 27:21

Yeah, yeah, that's that's my bottom, that's my last one for sure.

SPEAKER_01 27:25

Okay, all right. I just want to wrap up one quick thing here on uh the music, which you were mentioning, which is like excellent in this film. So Derrickson spent weeks searching for the perfect music to accompany the creepy tape, saying, I want to have a real sense of how that sound and music was going to work before I started shooting. So I spent a couple of good weeks scouring the internet and looking for really original, really horrifying music that had a certain beauty to it, but was still bone chilling. And he seemed to be really drawn to like death metal and European music as a key influence. And this ended up extending to how the symbols were designed in the film.

SPEAKER_00 28:05

Yeah, it's it's also interesting that you mentioned you mentioned that uh he was inspired by European death metal and stuff. Um it's interesting because Vincent D'Anafrio's character that plays the professor makes a comment on how the iconography of Bagul, this isn't like he says this isn't a pentagram or like you know that you'd see in European death metal or death metal or something like that. So it's kind of cool that he mentions that.

SPEAKER_01 28:34

Okay, Andrew. How in the hell do you think Sinister was received?

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Uh, this was received to I like universal like acclaim, I would say relatively so. I would say this is like an 85% or above this is one of the greats, right?

SPEAKER_01 28:51

So is this your final answer? Yep. You are incorrect, my friend.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Really?

SPEAKER_01 29:04

The film has also received a score of 53 out of 100 on Metacritic based on 30 critics indicating mixed or average reviews. Audiences pulled by Cinema Score gave the film an average grade of C. The hell, yeah. And I I would agree. I I would give this film I you know what's funny for lighting alone, I'd give this film a seven, but I'm not a humongous, like I wouldn't give it an 85%. That's like kill bill territory.

SPEAKER_00 29:38

All right, well, if you compare it into one of your favorite films, then come on.

SPEAKER_01 29:43

You're like, this is the new alien.

SPEAKER_00 29:46

Okay, no, but this I think this film deserves better than like a 60 something percent. Like, this is easily a film that's in the like 7.58 out of 10 for me.

SPEAKER_01 29:59

You know, I have a question for you. Do you think because this film, this is a real thing, do you think because this film has a non-happy ending, that it makes people give it a lower score? Like someone like Lum, for instance, would be like, Oh, I would I hated that movie. Absolutely. You'd go, why? And it's like, well, I didn't like the ending.

unknown 30:18

I am.

SPEAKER_01 30:19

But that doesn't mean it's a bad movie.

SPEAKER_00 30:21

Yeah, that's this is the thing, is like I think this is why a lot of people do like some slasher films, is that at the end of the day, the final girl does win in some respect. Whereas a lot of time in your possession-based horror, your um supernatural horror like this. Um we are like a lot of films do the whole like repeat the cycle thing, or like they do the whole like, you know, you're just another victim in this entity's path. You're not special. Um, and I think this movie's ending is super effective because we'll get there eventually, but there's a reason why I think this ending is effective. But yeah, there is that there's that brief sting of like, man, that sucks. Like, Tracy did nothing wrong. The his his Trevor and Ashley did nothing wrong, and then this is the ending that we they get, like, really?

SPEAKER_01 31:19

Well, like Ashley was a little needy.

SPEAKER_00 31:22

You're right. That's yeah. Uh, on the deserve to be possessed and kill her family scale. I don't think it's registers, but yeah, right.

SPEAKER_01 31:30

I think she's like a zero out of ten. She's not like an eight out of ten, like Maggie.

SPEAKER_00 31:34

No, but I I that I think there's actually data that supports what you just asked. I don't I don't know if you asked that rhetorically or not, but um, I absolutely audiences as a whole, your casual moviegoer um wants a happy ending for a reason. That there's a reason why happy endings work and why subverting expectations, even in the non-horror genre, um, often leads to reshoots and stuff when they do test screens because people are like, Man, that fucking sucked. Yeah, it doesn't feel good, but your ending is your ending can be everything, right? Like, we all know this. Your ending can be absolutely you can have a great film, and if you sour that experience with a bad ending, absolutely someone's gonna leave that fucking movie sucked. I'm I'm leaving a fucking four out of ten, you know, five out of ten.

SPEAKER_01 32:26

They are extremely that's why I kind of like some people like, oh, I don't put a lot of stock in like, you know, rocked tomatoes or something, but I I do think that the ones where critics are taking a more critical look at these are I guess you can take them um with a grain of salt, but I yeah, I I wasn't asking it rhetorically. I think there is something to people don't like when something ends without like the final girl being triumphant, even though all her friends are dead, like nothing's happy about it.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

You know, a lifetime of trauma.

SPEAKER_01 32:57

Yeah, it's like she's not like, yeah, anyway, I'd rather die, but anyway. So quick number. So Sinister was made for a mere three million dollars, Andrew. Holy shit, really. But you were mentioning this in another podcast, it went on to gross a worldwide total of$82.5 million dollars, making it a hugely successful film for Blumhouse. Jason Blum just rolling in it. Yeah, and that's what you were saying before. I think you were saying something to the effect of like that obviously Blumhouse has had humongous success, and this was a hugely successful film film for them.

SPEAKER_00 33:37

Yeah, that's a that is a massive return on investment. Three million to what 80 million, and even after you take away marketing stuff, that's so much money. That's awesome. Yeah, like you're rolling dough, honey.

SPEAKER_01 33:48

Oh in 2020, Forbes called Sinister the scariest movie ever made, based on a study they did in which participants watched horror films and had their vitals monitored. Sinister had the highest beat per minute of any horror film, spiking as high as 113 at one point. So this movie is objectively speaking, the scariest film of all time.

SPEAKER_00 34:19

It's that's awesome. I love that metric. I what I would like, I would like a further delve of when that happened in the movie. I would hazard a guess it's during the films, the stuff films, and particularly the lawnmower scene.

SPEAKER_01 34:33

Yeah, yeah. I don't know, but you I didn't think the hanging the hanging family is definitely shocking, but I didn't find it like it's just it's disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 34:42

I think what why I like that one, the cold open with it is sets the tone of the movie, and it it being in slow motion with that soundtrack playing, I think is still really effective. I think it's really uh I do question the physics of that branch weighing more than 600 pounds. Um, I would put those four members of the family probably around 600 pounds, um maybe 500, but uh yeah, I would say more, maybe in a 500, right?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

But this is in 2026.

SPEAKER_00 35:14

Yeah, so for those who've watched it, you'll I know I'm kind of on a wild tangent here. They get hung by the cutting of a tree branch, right? Now, tree branches, especially big ones, are deceptively heavy. They are. I I've dealt with them in my and work trying to move one. Um, but I don't know if they're that would be like especially the rope tension, would that be 500 pounds worth plus? Maybe either way.

SPEAKER_01 35:40

I mean, I think also this is like non-consequential at all.

SPEAKER_00 35:44

So just fucking ignore me, please.

SPEAKER_01 35:46

No, but I think this is like that's the these are the types of things I want to discuss. Like, I think that's a really, really good point. Also, because it's metaphysical, maybe it doesn't matter.

SPEAKER_00 35:57

Absolutely. Like, like I said, this is a this is a nothing burger conversation topic.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

But wait, hey, wait, no, no, I did I disagree. I think it's really important because are the kids responsible for binding the family and murdering them?

SPEAKER_00 36:15

So if we if we look at especially like I think the the tree one is an especially complicated setup to kill that family um for a child. So I'm going to guess that Bagul has full like mechanical motor control of a kid and is just like supernaturally strong.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Some of those deities are very creative.

SPEAKER_00 36:45

Yeah, they really are. We have to we really gotta start giving our pagan gods a little more credit for the creativity they've bestowed upon humanity throughout time and space.

SPEAKER_01 36:56

Okay. All right. As you mentioned, Andrew, we get straight into the action right off the bat with a cold open, a grainy image of four individuals being hung from a tree. We watch as they slowly transition from struggle to ceasing to move and dying. So not only do we hop right in, but this scene here is a direct representation of Cargill's disturbing dream. And a quick note here behind the scenes the family that was hanged on a tree were all played by stuntmen. However, when the scene was first done, the stunt coordinator botched the preparations for the scene, resulting in one of the actors coming loose from his harness, which went up around his neck and actually strangled him. So fortunately, he was not physically harmed, but the stunt coordinator was fired. Oh my god. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah, that's disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 37:52

So crazy.

SPEAKER_01 37:54

So we cut to a family moving into a new home in various scenes of like unpacking and settling in. We're introduced to a father and a daughter, Ellison and Ashley, played by Ethan Hawk and Claire Foley. Ashley seems pretty distraught about the new move, asking her father, like, why couldn't you keep writing in the old house? He promises once he sells his book, they'll move back to the old house, and only if she promises to pretend to like it. Um, we're also introduced to the town sheriff who shows up for a friendly visit. He's not a fan of Ellison's past work and he wants the family to leave the town. And so Ellison had written a book criticizing the police in Kentucky, and he's in town to write another book about a missing girl. And the sheriff doesn't like the attention because Ellison was critical of the police in their investigation in Kentucky. So I think I the reason I put this in here is because it highlights that Ellison did achieve a modicum of success, and he is really at all costs, like moving his entire family into this house to try and achieve that once again. So when Ellison speaks with his wife, Tracy, played by Juliet Relance, she questions him, we didn't move a few houses away from our crime scene, did we? He says no, but we quickly learn they indeed did not move a few houses away from the crime scene, but in the actual house where the murders took place.

SPEAKER_00 39:26

Yes, our cheeky and lives on technicalities, Ellison, um quickly goes to the back of the house and we get a camera pan around to the a tree that we see in that cold open, indicating no, honey, we did not move a couple doors down from a crime scene. You know, don't worry. Actually, we moved into the crime scene.

SPEAKER_01 39:51

I I want to call attention, and I mentioned this earlier, but again, this is the moment where we we don't realize this till the end, but the the sheer act of moving into the home, these people no longer have any choice or agency over their fate.

SPEAKER_00 40:12

Absolutely, and uh I like like I said, we said this earlier before, but yeah, we we we will soon learn why they were doomed from the moment Ellison made that choice to move in there.

SPEAKER_01 40:23

I I want to call attention also the fact that Ellison he is a giant fucking dickhead for moving his family into a murder house and not telling them. Oh, uh like unbelievably so, yes. Like, and we'll get more into that in a bit. So later that evening, Tracy and Ellison are alone and having a bit of a chat, discussing that Ellison's last book was 10 years ago. And she asks him, What if that was your 15 minutes? Like you can't spend the rest of your life's life chasing after it. What if you miss out on these years with the kids? And the reason I think this is so important is because he clearly puts his career before his family, and this is his ultimate undoing. Like he doesn't really seem to care about them. And I know that there are moments where he has, you know, maybe some precious interaction like with his daughter, like more toward the very beginning of the film. And clearly, like, he cares about his family, but I think the caveat is like not enough.

SPEAKER_00 41:27

Yeah, and during that scene where his wife is Tracy's bringing that up to him, I I love how pragmatic she is. She clearly, like, none of her words are poisonous. She's not like you can tell these two are not like she doesn't resent him yet. She she very much loves this guy and supports him, but she's very pragmatic in saying that, like, yeah, what if that was your 15 minutes of fame? And also, like, if this doesn't work out, if this one doesn't work out like they haven't been, I'm gonna take the kids and go back home to my sisters. And she says it not like it's not evil. She's not saying, like, fuck you, I'm gonna do this. She's just very much like, I can't do this, and I'm gonna take the kids and leave if if this doesn't work out. And I really like, and yet it was still said in a loving way. It's they she I I love the the wife Tracy in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 42:17

I I agree with you. I I do think she she she makes it very clear to him that she will leave him if this doesn't work out, like if he wants to continue to pursue it, and like you say, she says it in a very kind and pragmatic way. They're not fighting, she's just very matter-of-fact. Yeah. So, as Ellison explores the home's attic, he discovers an old projector with some old tapes, and he grabs one titled Family Hanging Out, and boy, were they hanging out.

SPEAKER_00 42:49

I will yeah, yeah, the the the the no, they that the the tape names are clearly the entity has a sense of humor.

SPEAKER_01 42:58

I have a question. Is the boogie like taking out a marker and like marking the tapes with these clever names?

SPEAKER_00 43:11

That's the it's definitely like we'll come to see this, but it's I think it's definitely the the children that's doing it, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:17

But like I just find it odd that the deity has a sense of humor that would be appealing to like modern day man, like family hanging out.

SPEAKER_00 43:31

Yeah, I don't it's gotta well, he he must he must have maybe he's I don't know, we don't really know much about his personality or if he has one, but he clearly through his possession gets the kids to name these tapes in kind of entendre ways, right?

SPEAKER_01 43:48

But like he what a dick. And the thing is, I still don't think he's like as much of a dick as Ellison.

SPEAKER_00 43:55

No, quite frankly, he's not hiding things from his wife, he's just very much like I want to eat some kids and possess some. I'm very obvious about what I do.

SPEAKER_01 44:04

Yeah. And girl, I'm hungry. So he sets up the projector and he begins to play the first film. So the film depicts a seemingly normal family, just like his, enjoying a beautiful day in their backyard. But this beautiful day doesn't last long as the film abruptly cuts to the family being hung on the tree, struggling to take their last breaths. And fun fact here, during this scene, Ethan Hawk was actually watching the footage and hearing the music together for the first time. So most of his reactions are completely real.

SPEAKER_00 44:42

That is fantastic because I think that's like I how do you catch capture a more like better acting reaction than having the actor do it for the first time?

SPEAKER_01 44:53

And so Ellison pours a drink, which is a precursor to a larger problem. And he decides to pop in another one of the Super 8s, the Family Barbecue, depicting another happy family. The family is enjoying a beautiful day by the beach. But this film, too, cuts abruptly to the family trapped and bound inside their vehicle as someone sets them on fire, burning them alive. Now, he doesn't seem, in my opinion, to be like all too disturbed by these films. But at this point, he kind of showcases more of an intrigue and he asks, like, you came back and left the box. Why?

SPEAKER_00 45:45

Yeah, it's that is a question he will eventually find the answer out to, but it'll be too late by then. And I all I love the barbecue is my I think my second it's second favorite of the films. Um, it's so disturbing that once the pyre, the makeshift pyre of this car and the family's lit, you actually see the car rock back and forth because clearly the family is burning alive and woke up to being burned alive and is moving around in the car. And I think that's absolutely horrifying.

SPEAKER_01 46:16

I have another question. Yeah, what is more disturbing to you being drug underwater or being burned alive? Oh, it's a fun trivia game.

SPEAKER_00 46:28

Yeah, that's the famous would you rather um question. One of those and that's it, they're both so horrifying. So with drowning, you have the knowledge about what's to come in the next 30 seconds to a minute, right? While you hold your breath. Um, but I'm assuming you'd have a sharp burst of pain for a couple of seconds and then you'd be done. Whereas I'm gonna assume until your nerves are fried, there's probably like a good 10 seconds where it is the most insane agony ever. And even saying this out loud is really disturbing me. Um, so I would it was be an absolute phobia of mine. I think I would still rather drown, despite how horrifying that would be. I would rather burn alive.

SPEAKER_01 47:18

I like as long as I can breathe, even though I don't think you can breathe.

SPEAKER_00 47:22

The just the air, by the way, the fire would take whatever air is in the environment away from you.

SPEAKER_01 47:27

So that's like so basically you're drowning plus burning.

SPEAKER_00 47:31

Or suffocating plus burning. You inhaled, like I don't even think we realize the level to this, but I think when you inhaled, the air alone would be boiling your like inside of your mouth and your throat. Like that'd be terrible, man. Oh god. Also, too. I big digressed. Sorry, that was pretty dark, but um we do see uh we see the iconography, we see the icon of what like of the of the entity on the car for the first time. This is the first indication to me as the as a viewer that something occult or culty or something is afoot here.

SPEAKER_01 48:10

I don't think he realizes that at this point.

SPEAKER_00 48:12

No, he doesn't. He does. Yeah, uh Allison doesn't remark upon it until uh like a little bit more into this film. But for me, I was like, oh, that's like they've they quickly uh go upon the symbol that's almost like a goat skull or something. Um really cool. Do you know what I find interesting about this movie?

SPEAKER_01 48:31

And like we I will be asking you questions about this later, but I think the thing I find kind of cool is similar to other films, and we you know we covered Jeepers Creepers, that was our first episode. The theme of Ellison believing that this is a serial killer prior to understanding that this is something metaphysical is really cool. And if you take this movie just at face value, and I'll go through the facts as we move forward, he really doesn't understand or has any reason to understand this is anything other than a human until much, much later in the film.

SPEAKER_00 49:13

Yes, and that's and I think that's fair for the most part. I think until he gets to like his I don't know, it's like the third or fourth night um in the house, that's when it's like, okay, dude, let's put two and two together here. And he has he actually has a conversation with um deputy so and so about it.

SPEAKER_01 49:33

But he fights like he he clings on to this until like the bitter end. So as he proceeds to pop in another tape, he hears a thump and begins to investigate. So what he discovers is an unopened box in the center of the foyer. And as he steps closer, none other than his own son Trevor emerges and begins to scream uncontrollably. And the family proceed to calm Trevor down by bringing him outside, letting him catch his breath. And it appears Trevor's had night terrors in the past, so I don't think this is particularly alarming to them. So this is another example of it there is definitely this permeating effect of the boogle within the house, but because Trevor has had night terrors in the past, there's no reason yet to believe anything is wrong.

SPEAKER_00 50:37

Question mark? I only thing I would say is I highly doubt he's seen his son reverse Arch out of a box like a spider. Like it's it is really like it is creepy how that kid comes out of the box.

SPEAKER_01 50:53

But that's kind of what I was wondering though. I'm like, this is not a typical as someone who's had night terrors when I was a young boy. I don't recall ever leaving my bed. So like this is a little like so. I'm gonna take that. This is I'm gonna pack this under this is evidence that something weird is happening already.

SPEAKER_00 51:15

Yeah, and I think like they remark uh Tracy especially remarks upon this later when Trevor has his second night tear and it's his second and last one uh in the movie, and that's even more ridiculous, like not sorry, not ridiculous, it's even more like hilarious. No, yeah, it's so funny. No, it's even more like out of the left field where he's outside in the bushes. Um, but by that point, there's even a conversation had like it has never been like this before, dude. Like, come on, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:45

So the following day, Ellison sets down to watch yet another one of the disturbing super eights. This one's called The Pool Party 66, and depicts a family having a wonderful, gleeful day by the pool before again abruptly cutting to the very same family, tied to their lawn chairs, being drug to the bottom of the pool to drown.

SPEAKER_00 52:12

You know what? This is horrible. This is yeah, this one's horrifying.

SPEAKER_01 52:15

This one is for me, this one is the most disturbing.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

I don't know when you asked me which one was scarier. I don't know why I didn't even remember this one for a second. No, the this one is also horrible. I mean, they're all horrible, but like this would be like, God, this one's creepy. This one's really creepy.

SPEAKER_01 52:31

I think why this one's creepy too is because it the way that it is lit in the dark, I don't think I was aware right away what was about to happen. Whereas like the family in the car, the family has gasoline cans on them. Yeah, yeah. And so you're kind of like, okay, like I could see, you know, but this one I very much didn't understand what's happening then when it happened, it just felt icky, like it didn't feel good.

SPEAKER_00 52:55

These were so freaky. This is one of those films where, like, I wish I could see this again for the first time and not remember seeing it.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Oh, yeah. You know, I hadn't seen it for 13 years, so I saw it when it first came out. So I I felt like I was watching it for the first again. Like I said, like I thought the hanging video was the only video in the entire film, and I was wrong. There are lots. Yeah. There's one called Beach Blowout.

SPEAKER_00 53:19

Yeah, there's one called Shop Mel Beganza. It's crazy. Like they're sorry, I'll shut the human bonanza. Yeah, bonanza. Shopmel bonanza, and like the family gets trapped in a clothing store with no discounts.

SPEAKER_01 53:38

What do you mean, Tracy? Tracy, it's like it's it's like Black Friday blowout. It's just a video of like what actually happens on Black Friday.

SPEAKER_00 53:50

People being trampling stuff to creepy music.

SPEAKER_01 53:54

Okay. So this time, before the film comes to a close, Ellison sees a demonic figure at the bottom of the pool right before the super eight begins to melt, destroying the evidence. So this is our first introduction to the Boogle. And although I do think the character looks a bit silly, at this point I did recall it being disturbing. Oh, it's and it's because it's a glimpse.

SPEAKER_00 54:27

Yeah, this is a really I'm sorry, but like I think if you haven't like, especially without the context of the rest of the movie, this is I think this is a very freaky scene, and it's I think it's really effective the way he's slowly walking at the bottom of the pool, and he does that slow turn, which then of course Ellison tries to freeze frame on the Super 8, and even after a few seconds, the Super 8 ignites, right? It can't handle looking at this image for too long.

SPEAKER_01 54:56

Oh, I love it. So, according to Cargill, this film was extremely difficult to film. So the actors and actresses who played the drowned family were actually tied to the lawn chairs and pulled underwater in reality. Yeah, I was all done practically. These aren't dummies, this these are real folks.

SPEAKER_00 55:17

Yeah, you could tell, like I figured right away, like that this would be a an uncomfortable stunt to film. I'm gonna guess it's scuba divers with air ready to go at the edge of the pool close to the film that you can't see because you don't you don't you don't see their faces underwater. So I'm I'm gonna guess that's how they pulled the stunt off, is they they immediately put regulators in their mouth um underwater, but I don't know.

SPEAKER_01 55:43

They also filmed the Boogle underwater, and the actor Nicholas King had to wear weights and stay underwater for several seconds while he was filmed. So, since the scene was filmed entirely on Super 8, remember, they had to ensure that the camera was properly rolling, that the cartridge and light meter were working, otherwise, the scene would have to be shot numerous times. So I believe from reading that that this was like a one and done practical effect scene. Yeah, as not to like stress out the actors. I did not think these were real people.

SPEAKER_00 56:26

I I first I thought maybe a couple of them weren't, but then you really get to see when you look at their feet, like that's like that's way too realistic to be like dummies. That would be this would probably be as a stunt man, this would probably be one more the the most uncomfortable one to to do of all these film out of all the films.

SPEAKER_01 56:44

So Tracy and Trevor return home, and we learn that Trevor has drawn with permanent marker a depiction of four family members hanging from a tree. And so Tracy and Ellison assume Trevor has overheard Ellison's story, and this might be the reason he drew the image. So again, I like to call attention to the fact that like something weird is happening, but they're explaining it away through logical means, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 57:15

And at this point, Ellison still doesn't jump in to say like why like why they moved there, or that this is the house, and that they oh, he just heard the story at school.

SPEAKER_01 57:27

And the dickhead meter continues to rise. Yep. So I have to ask you a question, and again, I said I was gonna ask you like a series of questions. So, do you think enough has occurred yet to cause Ellison to get the family out of the house?

SPEAKER_00 57:51

Uh well, no. I think I think we're getting there, but at the same time, if I put this, I don't know this is supernatural. I'm Ellison. Yeah, I see my kids drawn the family hanging, but it's a famous story in that small town, very, very famous, and it's recent, um, relatively recent. And he has watched these films that, as far as he knows, take place in other locations, not at his house. So I would, even though he should still admit to his wife, hey, we're in a murder house, do I think that he has enough evidence to say, holy shit, we need to leave? No, not yet.

SPEAKER_01 58:32

Okay, okay, fair. Okay. So later that evening, I okay, I also noted so this starts to become a bit repetitive. Like we go into the evening, he watches a film, there's a thump, we go to the next day, something weird happens, but I digress. So he settles into another family fun film called Sleepy Time. And we are treated to another Boogle special. We enter the interior of a family home as a family is bound to their beds, one by one, getting their throats slit. We learn this is the Miller family, and that one of their children also went missing following the murder. So, again, we're starting to see a pattern here of entire families being murdered, with one child missing. And this is why this film completely reminded me of Long Legs. And I'll talk a bit more about this as like the film reveals more evidence. But it's so far, like the idea that an entire family is murdered, but one member is alive, albeit for like completely different reasons, and it's kind of due to like a demonic presence or the occult. I'm starting to wonder if long legs took inspiration from this film.

SPEAKER_00 59:59

Possibly. I mean, there are there are lots of films that deal with the occult and and things similar, but maybe I think this is a case of kind of like the infestation of a paranormal entity via unconventional methods in this movie.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:16

So as Ellison again sits down for another drink, we again hear a loud thump from above, and he moves in to explore. So he ascends into the attic of the home, the place where he found the projector in the super eights, and he discovers a series of drawings, depictions of each of the families from the film, and in each is a character called Mr. Boogie.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

Yeah, this is this is where he I think is starting to put together that there's more to this than the tangible and the like the physical realm. Is that we see this lid and it has Mr. Boogie in all the pictures, right? And at this point, he did see he did see Mr. Boogie underwater. And I think that that point you should be like uh something's afoot here, but not yet until um and you can cut this out, Frank. You're are you gonna discuss where he goes to find Mr. Boogie in the remaining tapes? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll call it.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:27

Yeah. All right. Um, yeah, I think so. Okay. So Ellison receives a call from the deputy played by James Ransoni doing his best impression of Dewey, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:44

I think he's just like, I I think he's just playing like a semi fanboy who's just like a really good guy. I like I know that's funny, like, yeah, maybe he's playing Dewey, but yeah, you know, actually, that's a perfect fuck that. That's a perfect that is a perfect explanation. Dewey is also a stand-up guy in Scream. This is very much the honest to good detective, the honest to good cop. So yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 1:02:08

Hello, hello, Mr. Mr. Mr. Elvel. It's like that fumbling, like kind of idiot, although he's super endearing and he's like, this guy's very effective at his job. But he confirms the Martinez family from the barbecue video also had their nine-year-old son go missing following the family murder. He tells Ellison that before the Stevenson's family, the Hanged family, moved into his house, they previously lived where the Millers were murdered.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:41

Yeah, and the whole time, the whole time he's having this phone call, the camera's offset so that you see Ellison talking to the phone. But we have a frozen picture of Mr. Boogie from the barbecue video because he lit up the contrast on these videos, and it's Mr. Boogie is in the background of all of these films, and he finds him in the bushes of the hanging video, he finds him standing behind a window in the garage. He finds obviously we have the uh the drowning video. I think the only video uh by this point that we don't see him in is the throat slashy one. Um, but we get an awesome scene here where while he is on the phone, Mr. Boogie turns his head to face Ellison and then turns back by the time Ellison looks back at the computer. And at the time when this movie came out, that was a very, very freaky scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:45

Okay, so the deputy does confirm A, there is another missing child, and B, the Stevenson's family previously lived where the Millers were murdered, so the creepy details are starting to mount, but again, I still don't think there is cause for alarm yet.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:11

Yeah. And we get we we're about to get into this. His his this following night is where for me, this would be my cutoff. We're about to go on this next scene here where it's like, okay, you have this evidence plus what happens next. Time to call it, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:25

Okay, let's get into it. So later that same evening, Ellison is holding up a photograph of the tree in the backyard, the exact one where the Stevensons were hung. And as he pulls the photograph away, we see the boogle. And frightened but defiant, he decides to grab a bat and head outside to confront the man he thinks is responsible, but it ain't no man. And my question to you is would there be any reason at this point for him to think this is anything other than a regular garden variety man?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:11

We still, despite again, we even though we have those creepy details, those details could just amount to the fact that this is a serial killer that's been going on for a couple decades. Um, we so we we soon learn he puts it together. It's actually been he's he would have been operating for like 60 something years, but um no, I would say Ellison still, despite the creepiness of this guy being in the background of those movies, is still just a man.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:42

So, what he finds outside is a very frightened young Trevor cowering in the bushes. It appears he's had another night terror. This time, Tracy confronts Ellison, urging him to leave. And she says, You never crack into the whiskey this early in this. Often. So she's noticing a subtle slow unravel. And I'm assuming she's seen this because while he was writing his book in Kentucky, these are probably very similar signs to like his behavior at that time. But I think the addition of the son's night terrors is what's spawning her need to want to leave the house.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:25

Yeah, we also like uh I know like for the essence of time, we we we're not we we have to leave some stuff out or can't discuss some stuff, but I will say the start of this the start of this night kicks off with another what I would call a seemingly paranormal event too. So just to backtrack a little bit, right before he finds Mr. Boogie in the or he sees him in the bushes from his house, I'll just bring note of two things. He wakes up in the middle of the night to his projector on. It's on in a seemingly locked office and operated. And I don't know about you, but I don't think Trevor or Ashley have the capacity to uh set up a super eight camera in the middle of the night.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:05

No, but sorry, I thought about this and I bring up this like recurring theme of like the projector being on in the middle of the night, but you're great to call this out. I wonder if this is the same, you know what we were talking about, the tree, like who set the tree up, who set the hanging family up. Like, I believe Ashley is doing this stuff. Me too, yes. Yeah, and so like whether she can open the office or how she got in, I'm not sure. But for some reason, she's like scampering around the house in the evening. You could also go as far as saying, because we do get a scene with the kids later, which we'll talk about, but you know, it could also be the missing children, but I believe it's tied to the physical world. I believe it is a human doing this.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:52

Yeah, I think uh even though Allison might not know this, yes, I think we especially when we have all the evidence by the end of the movie, we it's most likely Ashley who has been doing this at the behest of this entity. And the last point I'll bring up here the shot where he sees Mr. Boogie in the bushes is actually a really cool jump scare shot. It was used in the trailers as well, where he holds up a printed out photo after uh because he he he highlights and finds Mr. Boogie in all his videos. And in this particular case, he sees Mr. Boogie in the bushes in the very in the background of the hanging, and he holds up the photo the exact place where he would be in the bushes. And when he drops the photo, of course, Mr. Boogie's there, and that's what really makes him it's to the point where he can't believe what he's seeing. He wipes his eyes and he's like, no, he like wipes his eyes, he presses his eyes in and wipes his face, and Mr. Boogie's disappeared, of course.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:50

This is like such a trope, too, because it's the same trope as oh, it was the wind. Yes, it's like you saw that, but yeah, I digress.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:01

I think he and he we'll find we'll we'll have a scene in a little bit here. Uh, he knows he saw that, but he he's he is now at this point making the rationalizations that we all would in this moment that this this is not actually happening.

SPEAKER_01 1:09:16

So Tracy, you know, he he's turning up for Tracy. So he urges her to be patient. He tells her this is his version of in cold blood and that this is his shot. He refuses to tell her anything else, though, saying he just needs a little bit more time. So we're seeing that, like Tracy, like I said, although subtle perhaps, is starting to see signs of her family unraveling in this house, and Ellison refuses to admit that there is even a slight issue.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:52

Yeah, he at this point he's still he's he's gotta lay on the rationalizations to his wife. Um, because he he's like again, it it's gotta be despite how awful and how how oppressive this the atmosphere has become for him. And if you watch the movie too, you'll see the knights are getting to him by this point. Like he is very much definitely his his descent into madness is now in full effect. And I know he doesn't go crazy, but his descent into the paranormal rather, and he's still uh you can tell in his brain, he's like, if I just make it through, if I just get this book done, we can just leave all this shit behind us and we'll be rich. And I just gotta get through this. I think that's really what is driving.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:36

I I disagree because uh if you think of an arc of a character throughout a film, like from the beginning of the film when he first moves into that house until now, personally, I don't see a whole lot of growth in the area of unraveling. Like he starts out like erratic and focused, and yeah, he's starting to drink a little bit more here, but and you know, he does have like an argument with his wife, so things are like less calm, but it's not like there's like a wild digression to his personality, like that's what I mean, and that's why I'm kind of like I I really don't like this character, but I do appreciate the movie's subtle nod to the descent into madness, like it's not overt, like he's clinging on to every logical piece he can because that's what's gonna get him to finish this project.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:37

Yeah, and I think I do think there is some evidence that he is, I do think he is slowly, like, despite wanting to get this product done, he is starting to crack a bit because we'll get one we have we have another night to come, of course, another video to come before he meets with the detective where he kind of lays it all bare about what he's going through. So, anyways, we can uh move on here.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:02

Okay, Ellison picks up one final Super 8 film entitled Lawn Work, and this film depicts another family tucked away inside their home, enjoying a quiet evening in front of the TV. But again, the film cuts away to a close-up of a lawnmower. The lawnmower moves across the lawn, and again, I want to call attention to the light source. So the only thing that is lit in this film is basically a third of the top of the lawnmower. So when you're watching this movie, you don't have a lot of foresight, you don't know what's coming, and suddenly a family member appears and is consumed by the lawnmower. And this was so highly effective, it scared the shit out of me.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:02

Yeah, this this is as far as the scare factor, like whether you like the other tapes more or not, out of the ice, the feeling that this movie gives you, this tape gives you, plus that's that that jump scare is unreal.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:19

As in most films like this one, we have to bring in the obligatory expert to provide the audience some exposition. So we enter Professor Jonas, played by Vincent D'Nofrio, who is referred to by Deputy Dewey. We learn that the symbol isn't the logo of a death metal band, but is associated with the worship of a pagan deity dating back to Babylonian times named Bugul. He learns that Bughool eats children, trapping them in a nether world where he consumes their souls over time. That's dark.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:02

Yeah, this is like I think this is really, really cool. Normally exposition dumps, obviously, a lot of horror films when there is a paranormal entity, we have to get some form of exposition. And this is a very like on-the-nose, you know, professor in expert in you know the paranormal. But I do find that I loved I really loved learning about this entity through through this way. Like, I like I like the background.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:29

I just think it's funny that there's always like someone to consult. Like they go to like the local university and they talk to like the hieroglyphics professor. Like, there's always like a person who has the exact information that they require.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:44

It's just funny too. Like, these these tropes have been around like forever, like Lovecraft with the miskotonic university. Like, there's always an expert or um some somebody that's like, oh, actually, it's it's it's just funny. But it's like it's tough because like it organically, how how would Ellison learn about this character with what he has?

SPEAKER_01 1:15:11

I like it. Like, I I actually love uh first of all, I I do think Vincent D'Anofrio like I love. It sounded like he was reading off a piece of paper. Like, I don't think this was his like tour de force performance. Yeah, I know. That's what this one is.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:23

I appreciated the character. So funny you say that because this is I was like, this is such like a reserved, basic like performance. It's just so weird they got Vincent D'Anofrio to like hey, can you just like be this like chill professor that sits at a desk for like 10 minutes or five minutes? For like three minutes, yeah. It's just weird that they got like such a I know like much like other actors, Vincent D'Nofrio has phased in and out of like the pop culture zeitgeist, but yeah, and maybe at this time he wasn't at the top of his game. I don't know, but I find this is just an odd role for him to be in. But, anyways, that's just kind of like a little aside.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:03

Yeah. Okay, so Allison returns to his office at 3 22 a.m. And just like the previous night, one of the Super 8s has been turned on and is playing the classic hanging out. He again hears a thump from the attic, and as he explores the home, children appear in the shadows around him, moving in displays of slow motion hidden from Ellison's view. Yeah, the only reason, sorry, the only reason why I even wanted to bring up this scene was because I loved the way this was filmed. I love that the he is moving in real time as the children are moving in slow motion in and around the house. And I thought, like, what a clever way to convey the supernatural.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:59

Yeah, I think uh two, like especially the scene where the little girl, we first see the little girl who's bent over with her hands on her knees, and she her hair flowing really drives that. Like, holy shit, she's in slow motion, and she jumps into pure blackness.

SPEAKER_01 1:17:18

The following day, Tracy and Ellison discover Ashley painting on the walls of the family home. Something she was specifically asked not to do earlier in the film. And what was she painting? A picture of her new pal Stephanie, the one daddy's writing the book about. So Tracy immediately just loses her shit. Discovering that they're living in the exact house the hanged family murders took place. Ellison, who is a fucking asshole, completely gaslights her by saying you never wanted to know. And yeah, like he that is that is so gaslighty.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:02

This entire this entire argument is has a a level of humor to it to for me, and and like, and it's not not in a bad way, like not like it's humor because it didn't work. It's like Ellison's arguments are so ridiculous they're funny. Um, because yeah, he first he tries the the whole gaslight thing. Well, you didn't want to know about my work kind of thing, and then she's like, I asked you if you lived, she's like, Well, you asked if we lived a couple doors down from a kind scene.

SPEAKER_01 1:18:37

And he actually says, like, he's like, the family never died here, it was in the backyard.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:43

I have this sequence here. I have like that is like they weren't murdered in the house, and Tracy's like, Oh, are you saying it didn't happen here? And Elsa's like, no, it happened in the backyard, but it's so ridiculous that like he's trying to like argue with technicalities, and it's just like shut the fuck up, dude.

SPEAKER_01 1:19:00

Like, but it's also like making her like the one who's causing the pro like that folks. If you don't know the definition of gaslighting, this is 101. Yeah, but Tracy reminds Ellison, her son is drawing pictures of the hanged family at school, and now their daughter is painting a little dead girl on their wall. And this is where even when Ellison is confronted with the decision to move his family into a murder home, he doesn't take responsibility, like he cares more about his work than he does about the humans he's supposed to protect. Like, she brings up a really good point. At this point, there is mounting evidence that something fucked up is happening, and that's just for her. He has all of the evidence she has, plus additional context, and still decides to stay.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:05

Yeah, this is yeah, this is like for me, this should be like the the breaking point where he realizes this has gone too far. You think it doesn't, I mean, it really doesn't movie like length of time-wise, we go into a scene immediately after this where he does realize that, but it selfishly had to happen to him for him to realize like we have to go. That's what I didn't like about it. But uh, anyways, sorry, we'll get to that scene in here in just a minute.

SPEAKER_01 1:20:33

Later that night, we see Ellison and Tracy in bed, an intruder shining a light on them, very reminiscent of the Super 8 films. So Ellison awakes and wanders into his office, where again we hear the soothing sounds of the projector playing, and upon further approach, Ellison discovers the projector and the tapes are missing. As light shines down from the attic, Ellison moves into explore, and we see a group of children seated before a film. And when you think it couldn't get creepier, the boogie appears again, suddenly, causing him to fall from the attic and hitting the floor below. I wanted to know if you thought this was a dream sequence.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:30

It's funny that's the first thing I said out loud, re-watching this. I was like, I wonder if this is a dream sequence, because um, not only does he find the projector with the tapes missing, as he approaches the ladder, there's these really cool cuts of like some cool music because this really creepy music starts to build up here. And as he approaches the ladder, the ladder has like almost a strobe effect on it, not like a full-on strobe light, but it's like flickering light on the ladder, indicating like come up, come up to the attic. And the way that the the filming is like it's cut up, it reminds me like this is not how previous events he's experienced have been cut up in terms of like angles and stuff. Whereas this one was like uh it was like there's some angle, there's some scene cuts here that jump around a little bit. Um, so I was like, Yeah, maybe I think this was a dream sequence. At first, at first I thought that. And then I then did not think that after. So after he so after he goes up there and he falls down, um his tapes and stuff are chucked chucked down to him through the hole that he fell through originally, right?

SPEAKER_01 1:22:37

I thought what was really cool was when Ellison and Tracy are in bed at the beginning of this and you see them being filmed in the effect of the Super Eight. I think what's interesting is it gives you, as the audience, an idea that maybe that was either supposed to be like the film that they end up in at the end, or it's a precursor to the film at the like it it puts their family in the same position as the families from the other films, and so the as the audience, you're kind of putting it together. You're like, oh, this is about to beset them.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:24

Yeah, this is like this is the first um this is the major piece of dam and evidence that like is like they are they are now in the cycle of it, uh that it's going to happen to them. And I think up until the point that he actually sees the kids in the attic, again, the kids just did not work for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:42

Um they did they didn't yet exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:44

I still think this is one of the the one of the freakiest sequences in the house that we get, just up until the point he goes into the attic. I think him, the way that he's filmed with the light on him, the music that plays, I think this whole sequence is fantastically creepy, uh, up until we go into the attic where the fucking kids ruin it.

unknown 1:24:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:05

I also feel like when he approaches the attic and you see the ladder at the end of the hall, the way that that is lit, and you kind of alluded to that, is another stroke of genius. Everything is dark and it's calling to him. And that's what kind of gave me like that dream-like feel. Although, like, because that's been the way it's been filmed the entire thing, it's obviously set in reality, but just a very cool lighting touch, I think that adds a little something to that scene. So, Andrew, he finally, believe it or not, decides to do something. He takes the projector and the tapes outside and he sets that shit on fire. And in another stroke of genius, he also finally decides they have to leave the murder house and should never have come there in the first place.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:03

Yeah, this one, this whole sequence to him burning the stuff. I I seriously, the soundtrack, I can't overstate this enough. The ambient bassy tones of the soundtrack with like these haunting children counting in the background, it's so awesome. And it really the music is really you can tell it's like driving him. It's it's really indicating that it's he's now got a plan, he's gotta, he's gotta leave. And it's it's kind of it's haunting horror action music almost, and uh just fantastic. And then the only thing I'll say too here about Allison's character, and to harp on him some more because he deserves it, is like selfishly, he had to experience a paranormal event directly that freaked him to his core, despite his family already having been through like his his wife is freaked out to her core, seeing what her children have gone through. But no, it had to happen to him before he's like, Okay, it happened to me, let's go.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:00

You know what's interesting? I just thought of this too because I mentioned this earlier, but even had he because we're like, Oh, like what an asshole, like he should have left earlier, or not, but even if he had left, right after seeing that very first film, they still would have been fucked. So it's like no matter at what point he decided to take action, the mere decision, the inception point, is a point of no return.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:30

Yes, yeah, toast. They they were like it's you said it before to doom the moment that he made a decision to move there.

SPEAKER_01 1:26:39

Yeah. So the family packs themselves in the car and they return to the home that they moved from, which yes is uh oddly still available. And this this gave me a parallel to Insidious, because although happening much later in the film, yeah, really good movie. So where the family moves to a new location, but they can't escape the evil, they are thoroughly linked to it, and that I thought was like kind of cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:11

Yes, I I love that idea. Like uh Insidious did that as well, where you can't like it's not it's not the house itself that's haunted, it's the this you're we're gonna find out why, but it's actually these the tapes that are causing the infestation of this entity uh to to haunt the family.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:32

And we're just about to learn. So Ellison, uh, who at this point has abandoned his new book, meets with Professor Jonas one last time. Professor Jonas knows what the symbol is, it's an old sketch from the dark ages. He says that the Bugle lived in the images themselves and were a gateway to his realm. Children exposed to these images were especially. Vulnerable. Ellison does ask Jonas what were to happen if the images were destroyed, and Professor Jonas doesn't seem to know. And so just when you think things are looking up, Ellison discovers the same projector and tapes in his attic. Ooh, queen!

SPEAKER_00 1:28:27

Yes, and to to really kind of you can tell what's about to happen. I think you a lot, not maybe you can't tell us about happened, but you can tell that something it's not over yet.

SPEAKER_01 1:28:38

Um okay, so the Boogle is indeed relentless, and now we know that it's followed them to this new house. So very insidious vibes. So Ellison discovers an envelope entitled Extended Cut Endings and decides to pop them in the old projectory.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:01

I just so this is the only other part where I'm like, like this not only is the Bagul like has a sense of humor, he's also like in like he appreciates like the director's cut, he appreciates those extra scenes that you can put into a movie. I think it's funny he calls them extended cuts. Yeah, it's like the aesthetic cut. It's like it's like there's like what's like the Snyder cut, you know.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:30

Imagine it was the Boogle cut.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:34

Uh uh Ellison, I really wanted you to watch this movie, see what he see what he felt about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:29:39

He's like, duh. He looks like he got the boogle, does look like I can't think of anything funny. But he does, he looks like he, I don't know. Okay, he looks like he looks like yeah. So before he watches the extended cut, he receives one final call from the deputy who says he's discovered something new. Each of the previous families lived in the house where one of the earlier murders took place, all five of them. And this pattern goes back to the 1966 drownings, and that Ellison has put his family into the timeline.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:28

Yeah, and he says something really like it kind of sent shivers. It kind of really creepy creeped me out is that he's like, if this guy's still operating, you just put yourself front and center. I thought it was really I thought it was really like it to the audience, maybe it's a duh moment, but for Ellison, it's like I just found this really bone-shilling that like like the dam's about to break, but he it's he can't do anything about it.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:58

I to be honest with you, at this point, like I forgot the ending, and I thought there was a happy ending, and there isn't.

SPEAKER_00 1:31:07

I one thing I do like I'd like upon rewatch is I also forgot the ending. I knew it was not a happy, I knew like they didn't serve, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:31:15

So Ellison says fuck it, and he continues to play the extended cut anyway, and in it we see the missing girl from the Stevenson family playing and hanging off one of the dead hanged bodies. Each film proceeds to show the missing kid from each family as the responsible party to the murderer, and this is where, for some reason I keep mentioning this, the parallel to long legs is insane. There is a family member who is possessed, who murders the entire family and is the lone survivor. Their fate, however, is different, but you can't deny the parallel between those two stories.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:03

Yeah, you know what? I I need to rewatch the movie because I clearly forget the entire Long Legs movie. Oh my god, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:10

I think you I think you should. I think if if for anything, it's a very interesting watch, and Nicolas Cage is yeah pretty awesome.

SPEAKER_00 1:32:17

He was great.

SPEAKER_01 1:32:18

So we're moving into the very, very final scene here. So Ellison immediately starts to feel woozy, and we discover he's been drugged by none other than his own daughter, Ashley. When Ellison awakes, he's tied up with duct tape, similar to the families in the other tapes. And we realize quickly he is a part of another film. Ashley appears saying, Don't worry, Daddy, I'll make you famous again. Just before an abrupt cutaway to what I'm assuming is another brutal murder. So in our final scene, we see Ashley, hands bloody, drawing one last depiction of a family whose members have been decapitated in front of their fireplace. She's scooped up by the Boogle and enters the Super 8 film. And just before we come to a close, we're treated to one final scare by the Boogle. And quick fun fact here: in this final scene, the Boogle popping up at the last minute was an edition by producer Jason Bloom, who insisted the movie needed one final jump scare.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:46

Yeah, I think you can look at that jump scare one of two ways. It's a fun little like book end of the whole movie, like see ya. Um, but I don't think we needed it.

SPEAKER_01 1:33:55

No, I thought it was actually like quite silly and uh sort of ruined the ultimately disturbing fate of this poor family.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:06

Yeah, I uh despite me not liking I don't again, I don't love the kids in the hallway too much, but I loved there's a really good slow pan of Ashley, she's walking the halls of blood towards a bloodied door with the sip the bloodied symbol on it. I actually really liked all of that. I liked how creepy it was, and it's also this the one shot of her walking down the hallway towards the camera. I think it was actually used for the poster of the film on one of the or post or one of the posters, anyway. And I think it's just a really good, really cool shot of this bloodied hallway that she's painted on. And uh I think the tone of it, it's all so depressing. Like the family did not escape this. And like, yeah, to have this like last-minute jump scare, like I don't I thought it was such a cool ending to see the Mr. or the Boogle pick up Ash and enter the film, the netherworld of film. But then we have to like have this jump scare to kind of really undercuts the tone there. I'm not even sure I like the Boogle picking her up. I I I liked I I liked that myself.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:19

I like she's capable of murder, she's capable of walking.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:24

Yeah, well, you know, potato potato, Frank. Well, folks, that is sinister. And Frank, what would you uh what would you give that movie out of out of 10?

SPEAKER_01 1:35:41

I after talking about it with you, I would probably give it I you know I'm gonna give it a 7.5. I to be totally honest with you, there is not aside from what I mentioned before, like the repetition of the content, um, maybe some of the child acting, maybe the ending, but you cannot really fault the performances and the subtlety and the cinematography. For anyone who hasn't seen this in a while, and you've listened to this podcast, like I would strongly encourage you to go back, and even just the first quarter of the movie highlights how beautifully this movie was filmed. And for that alone, I would like give it a higher score. Yeah, I'm gonna go in with a 7.2.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:34

Yeah, I will fit, I'll finalize my thoughts on this movie with a 7 7.5.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:40

So your score is lower and my score is higher. Yeah. Because remember when you thought that Rotten Tomatoes gave it a 95%?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:48

That's an 85%, but yeah, you're right. Actually, no, I will change this to an eight. I'll give this an eight out of ten for me.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:54

What?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:55

Just because I mentioned that last year. No, no, before you said that I was thinking about it. I was like, you know what? No, I really like this movie. I'm gonna give it an eight. I will say, however, this is not a movie that I am going to go back and revisit anytime soon. Same here. Yeah, I think it's not a movie yeah. I I will not rewatch anytime soon.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:12

Like it's not like a good old fashioned Texas. You know, like I'm not gonna put it on before I take a nap. I'm I'm I I don't think so. All right, well, Andrew, would you join me again for our next feature film? I'll be there. All right, I'll talk to you later.

SPEAKER_00 1:37:30

All right, see ya.