The Lodge

This week, hosts Frank and Andrew discuss the 2019 psychological horror film The Lodge! What happens when an innocent prank goes a little too far?! Please join us for a scene by scene break down of this cult classic.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:12

Welcome to You Killed Clyde. I'm your host Frank, and today we're gonna be discussing what happens when a measly, innocent, harmless little prank goes a little too far. I'm joking, obviously. Um, folks, today we're talking about the horror film The Lodge. I'm not alone here, however. With me today is my dearest co-host and brother, Andrew. Andrew, how are ya?

SPEAKER_00 0:40

I'm wonderful. Uh, this is just seems to be an extension of my morning ritual lately. I just have my coffee on my computer, and uh I'm very much looking forward to discussing this film on this cloudy, rainy morning. I think that kind of is a little more fitting. If only there was some snow outside. Um, we'd feel red at home discussing this movie, I think. But uh yeah, I'm very excited because this is unlike other horror movies we've discussed so far. It is. I think this is the only, I think this is the first horror movie we've covered that does not contain an element of the supernatural.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

But it's it's odd because it tries to feign the supernatural, but it's absolutely not. So on first watch, you're like, what is happening? And it very much seems like it could go in that direction. And to be honest, on first watch, which you will hear me say about 80 million times during this podcast, I didn't know that there would be a twist, right? I don't think anyone did. So you're led to believe that there's some sort of like, you know, religious sort of spiritual possessive element. And then you're like, oh no, like this woman has been driven to the brink of insanity, literally.

SPEAKER_00 2:04

Yeah, this is a yeah, it's it's also like the kids. I mean, there's a lot to say about this movie, but I'll just say I won't go too much into my thesis on this movie, but the it's these are also in in a in an interesting way, the kids meddling with forces they do not understand, and they don't they don't understand the well of trauma and PTSD they are tapping into when they do what they do to this person later on. Do you know what I think this is actually akin to? And I wrote this in my notes.

SPEAKER_02 2:36

I kind of think this is akin to like when Dr. Frankenstein creates the monster, and then it becomes this like unbridled force of nature, and he didn't realize what he was doing. Like, you hit the nail on the head. It's like the theme of like these kids creating their own monster and their own demise. And to be honest with you, like we can talk a lot about like the father when we get into it.

SPEAKER_00 3:05

Really, these all three of these people, the the kids and Grace, are ultimately set up to fail by the father figure in this movie. 100%. And he's just we'll I'll go into some more. I always say, you know what? Just go into it, just talk about it. Yeah, yeah. I'll we'll do this later, but um, I will discuss this more later as we as certain scenes prop up, but to summarize here, very much from we find this out in the prologue. What I what I've just dictated the prologue before we get to the lodge, the setup for the movie. Um we find the father has clearly is the one responsible for destroying this family. And um ultimately in trying to introduce someone new to his kids who have solidarity with his wife, his ex-wife, Laura, he's created this rift so large that Aiden resorts to this awful, horrible thing that he he does throughout the movie. Um and I still lay most of this at the feet of the father. Can I say something though?

SPEAKER_02 4:14

Like, okay, I I and maybe we can cut this out, but this film hit really close to home for me because I have been through a change up in family. I have been in a situation where we were suddenly thrust into a new home very quickly, and we've all talked openly about this, like from our childhood. And the way that I reacted to that was I changed, I became like belligerent, I was very angry, I lashed out. Like I did all the stereotypical things that someone would do at the age of like 12. Like I was literally the same age as Aiden. So I think I don't blame the father for uh, you know, ending the marriage, finding someone new, engaging in a new relationship. Like none of that stuff is what bothers me. I think it's the administration of this like new life, you know, while Laura is alive and when she passes away. And he makes a series of decisions where he just lacks empathy. And it's in that that he creates this Petri dish of trauma versus trauma.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

I'm really happy to say that. I think too, I think I'll ex-I'll explain some more. I I will never fault someone. Like at the end of the day, it sucks. It's heartbreaking for one of the parties involved. But when someone decides they're not happy and they want to find or they do find that happiness with someone new, obviously that's heartbreaking for the family, but do we do we have this person deny their happiness to keep a family unit alive? A lot of people do that, but I don't so I will never fault that. But yes, you're absolutely right. It's not in that he errs, it's his complete lack of like empathy and like foresight into the situation he's helping create by letting these three uh forcing them into like this small pressure cooker of the cabin while he leaves um without any groundwork set up at all. Can I okay?

SPEAKER_02 6:34

I want to play devil's advocate here because I read a lot of articles online that were like, this is all Richard's fault. Richard like created it, he's like the world's worst person. But then when I'm like watching it, I'm like, okay, he waits, and I don't know, around six months after Laura's death. So six months with the kids, and I'm not saying like that's that's I grieving is so personal, so I don't know. I haven't lost uh someone like that before. So it's like he waits six months, he asks them. Obviously, children can't dictate your life, you're gonna make decisions, but when he chooses to leave them alone at the lodge, he checks in with Grace and he says, like, you know, obviously famous line, we'll talk about this later. But he checks in with her and he says, like, are you sure that this is it? So you could argue that he's like trying to, but ultimately he should have better judgment than to even be asking this woman her opinion on the subject.

SPEAKER_00 7:41

Yeah, because it has this pretext of like, you're saying, Are you sure? But there's already the pressure stacked against you to say yes.

SPEAKER_02 7:51

Yeah, and you've already agreed to do it before you even got here.

SPEAKER_00 7:56

Yeah, exactly. So I I still think he is ultimately, I don't think he's like the worst person alive. I think he just makes this like this lack of empathy and this lack of like foresight into these, like he just lives, and like I know someone like this who just like I think we all know people like this who just like kind of like they kind of carefree with like reckless abaddon, um, abandon. Sorry. Um abaddon's like the word for the devil, I think, in some other language. Um, but uh with reckless abandon just goes about his life um and doesn't realize the repercussions of his decisions until very, very late in this film.

SPEAKER_02 8:37

But this is also like such it's so true, but this is also like such a human trait. It's like I want to make sure that I make things like I want to return everything back to normal. Like, I don't want to wait any longer. I want a normal life, I want normal kids, I want a wife and a happy family. And it's like despite all of like like his ex-wife killed herself, and the implications of not only like a parent dying, but the way that she died is like horrific. But his need to like make things normal is ultimately bad for lack of a better, like more intellectual term.

SPEAKER_00 9:27

No, I think that you hit the nail on the head. I think it's well said. I think this movie contains, in my opinion, I was not expecting this at all. Uh, the depiction of suicide, um Laura's suicide is so shocking, which I'll talk about some more, but I was like, my mouth was a was a gape, yeah, and the movie lets it sit with several still shots after that happens. And uh um, and you know, we fast forward six months, and and he just you're absolutely right. He just like like we have no indication he's like put these kids with a grief counselor or that he's like helped them any step of the way of dealing with their grief. It's just kind of like oh it's I thought we'd do Christmas with my new girl. Like it's just like the kids are in emotional.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

We're going to Barbados!

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Yeah, the the kids are obviously deeply rightfully so, still deeply affected by this. And he's just like, hey, so you want to meet your new stepmom?

SPEAKER_02 10:36

Do you want to spend like arguably the most important holiday of the year with your new mom bitches? Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

Oh man, I can't wait to discuss some of these uh scenes of this movie.

SPEAKER_02 10:47

So for this film, in terms of research, I have discovered a little bit of a new format. So what I was doing before was kind of like front-loading the conversation with a bunch of research. And then I realized when we did the ritual that like it's a lot more impactful to pepper the research throughout as we get to certain scenes. So I'm only gonna discuss really some of the script and some of the revisions to that script. And then when we get into the film, that's when we're gonna get into like some of the meat and potatoes of like, why did Alicia Silverstone even agree to do this film? Like, just just tidbits like that, because you know, she's a screen legend. But you know what? Don't watch the Rakin. What's that? It's like a shark movie where literally for like 50 minutes there is no shark.

SPEAKER_00 11:45

Oh, just like a low budget straight to straight to streaming movie? Yeah. I never even heard of it. Alicia, yeah. I think, didn't she catch? I could be wrong here, but did she did she go kind of Gwyneth Pelcher like anti-vax and super like uh like like kind of like health fluencer person, or is that I might misremember that?

SPEAKER_02 12:06

She was someone who apparently had like she breastfed her child late into his life. She would chew up food in her mouth and then feed it to her children like a baby. Everyone was telling me that. Yeah, like she's I think she's very like of the earth. I don't know, like I mean, the only thing that I base my opinion off uh of on her is like her past like cinema credentials. But it's funny because a friend like Batman and Robin. A friend did bring this up to me, and like I don't know, even though if you want to like get into this, but maybe for a couple minutes. But essentially, like he was talking to me about like, can you separate the art from the artist? Because I said I would boycott certain art by certain people, like Roman Bob. I have a threshold for sure. So when you think of like, you know, if someone is anti-vax, would I still watch their films? Yeah, I would, but it's also, I don't know about you, but it kind of creates like a little bit of a bad taste in my mouth. Like, I don't want to really support my b anyone who is like not.

SPEAKER_00 13:20

My big example is Tom Cruise. I give to people. I I think for me, like I have a threshold and I have I just weigh each each situation individually. For example, I will always say to people, I think Tom Cruise is in absolutely incredible. I think he his movies are hit, he always gives 150% in every single movie he does. Like even at the age of 60 in the in those movies, or I think he's I think he's 60, or approaching 60, sorry. I shouldn't shouldn't age him that much. I think he's in his late 50s. I think he's the 72. Oh, maybe. Um I don't think so. Um, so in like the Mission Impossible movies, like he's still he never looks slow. He always looks like he's so like invested and given it as all and all his performances, but he's also a Scientologist. And for all intents and purposes, it's which is a cult that has been allowed to grow into a full-size religion in some countries like the United States, but it's been outlawed as a cult in Europe. So it's like, do I, and we all know we know if you you can go and deep dive in there, like about the crimes that that church or that that uh I'll use quotes here, religion um has done. Do I hold that against his performances? No, because he just his performances itself are just so good. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 14:45

All right. So it's time to get into some background for our research heads out there. I'll stop saying that eventually, but okay.

SPEAKER_00 14:55

Time to get into some background for the academics of movies. Yeah, don't know what that word was, but here we are. If you mean word, this is for you.

SPEAKER_02 15:09

Okay. The Lodge. Okay, this is interesting. Okay, so The Lodge began as a script by Scottish screenwriter Sergio Cassi, my Italian brethren. So this is I found super interesting that I pulled this out. So in an interview by Daily Dead, the Lodge evolved from Sergio Cassi's original playful psychological puzzle script into a minimalist, dread-filled feature through extensive revisions by directors Veronica France and Sevran Pialla. The directors rewrote the script in German, aggressively trimmed dialogue for atmospheric tension, and extended the narrative past the original ending, resulting in a lean 78-page shooting script. Once they had a lean, stark German draft, they translated it back into English. This process naturally removed wordiness and forced the dialogue to become incredibly sparse, cold, and minimalist. And so this is very, very true of their work. And if you've seen Goodnight Mommy, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about. Well, that's the same.

SPEAKER_00 16:19

That is the same directors?

SPEAKER_02 16:21

Yeah, and this is why I wanted to do that again, because it's absolutely incredible.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

It's so funny because I I all I've seen is the poster, or I guess the uh I don't know, the artwork, the the thumbnails for each of these films. And I'm like, oh, though for some reason they evoked the same, like, oh, that looks like the similar movies for some reason.

SPEAKER_02 16:41

And the atmospheric tension in both of them and the set design and like the even Mia's bedroom is so evocative of the bedroom of the kids in Goodnight Mommy.

SPEAKER_00 16:53

Was Goodnight Mommy remade, or was there two versions of it?

SPEAKER_02 16:56

It was, yeah. So it was remade with one of my favorite actresses. What's her name? Isn't Naomi some yes, Naomi Watts? Yes, Naomi Watts. Is it Naomi Watts? Yeah, Naomi Watts is in that movie. And it's actually, it's actually a really, really um accurate uh why can't I talk? What is what is the word for like a redo? Remake? Yes, it's a very, very accurate remake. Is it is the original a foreign language film?

SPEAKER_00 17:29

Yes. Is it Spanish? I don't know. Or okay, I thought it was maybe I'm trying to remember if I've seen the trailer for the original film. Am I in the hot seat here? Yeah, sorry, I don't mean to keep. I'm just I'm I'm like asking, like at least uh I I just don't I I knew that there was two versions of it. I just and I I wasn't sure. I was pretty sure the original is in another language, and I wasn't sure if it was like German or if it was Spanish.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

The original is absolutely like a 1000% must see. And I think like it's again, but the the parallels between these two are are pretty striking. And when you talk about like stark minimalism and and tension, the the the parallels between these two are are pretty pretty uh accurate. So in Cassie's early concepts, the mystery leaned heavily into the paranormal, which if you watch this for the first time, you can most likely like easily see that, right? Like we were talking about that earlier. Like you aren't sure whether or not what's happening is otherworldly or whether it's like real. And I think like the tension in that early script, that's really what it played with. So I think this is like the director, the writer's nod to that original concept. Fuck, I'm struggling to speak today. Jesus.

SPEAKER_00 18:52

Okay, you're doing you're doing great.

SPEAKER_02 18:54

Okay, so Franz and Fiala shifted the entire weight of the horror onto the characters' fractured minds. So again, we move from the paranormal over to reality. So by altering the script to focus on the children gaslighting Grace and weaponizing her severe religious cult trauma against her, the revisions transform the movie into a bleak commentary on the cyclical nature of abuse and emotional detachment. You know what's interesting? Originally, I wanted to discuss this film and not talk about the twist. Right? Like I was like, let's go through it until we get to the twist. But the thing is, for everyone that's listening to this podcast, hopefully, like you're you've watched the movie, that's why you're here. We're gonna talk about it scene by scene. But I want to talk about it from the perspective of gaslighting because I want as as the things, as this happens to Grace, it starts like incrementally from like very small to like a crescendo of her losing something really important in her life. And I will say, like the micro aggression Mia you know evokes in the early part of the film. I put her in just as guilty a position as Aiden, and I'll talk about those later. But I think for for for children to craft such a concept, including the removal of someone's medication, to me, that is like pure evil. That's the evil.

SPEAKER_00 20:31

They don't even, I don't think they're even understand what that medication does for her. They're just like, oh, we'll just remove it anyway. Like, we'll just take it away.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Actually, you bring up a good point that maybe they don't, maybe they don't understand the implication of medication, period, because they are young. But to be honest with you, and we'll talk about this later. But I'm on like an anti-anxiety medication. If that medication was I'll use blood pressure medication. If you're on blood pressure medication and that's removed from your life, the physical implications of that are deadly. And we see exactly from the psychological perspective how deadly it is. So we don't, but I sorry, but they like you said, I don't think they realize what they're fucking with here.

SPEAKER_00 21:13

I don't think they even get it. Yeah, because we the movie clearly shows this medication throughout the movie, keeps her from catatonia um from basically entering the states that she ends up entering. And it's like like it just blows my mind that they would even do this. Like, and why that, why they needed to take her medication away to still fulfill this part of the plan. I don't know, but it just like, holy shit, that's evil.

SPEAKER_02 21:37

Yeah, you bring up another point. Like, they craft a fucking plan. Anyway, I have so much to say when they're Googling her. We'll get to it. Oh boy, we ever will. All right. Directors Veronica Franz and Severin Fiala have frequently discussed their insistence on chronological shooting as a core part of their. Filmmaking philosophy. Because the Lodge relies entirely on the slow psychological deterioration of its characters, they shot the film in sequence so the actors could naturally experience the progression of cabin fever. So, and I have an entire section down below, like within the script, where I'll talk a bit about how the directors facilitated the theme of isolation. And it's a little method. So we'll get to that once we talk about like the characters. Once they're stranded at the lodge, I'll talk about how the directors like influence their acting decisions. And it's actually kind of interesting. So, Andrew, we're gonna play a game. We didn't play it with Psycho Killer because it received a 9%, but this one's a little different. So how do you think the Lodge was received?

SPEAKER_00 22:53

Uh once again, we're dealing with the horror genre here. I'll give it like uh the like a C plus up. No, no, I I think I I'm gonna guess you got a C plus a B minus. So we'll say like a high 60 to this low 70 on Metacritic, Open Critic, whatever. What? What's Open Critic? There's like another, there's like literally, I can type it right now. I'm pretty sure there's another aggregate scoring site called Open Critic. Let me see. Everyone's got an opinion, eh? All right. Open critic is video games only. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 23:28

Oh, that's why. All right. Well, good for all the people who are film viewers on this podcast.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

Yeah, so handy. They all go to Open Critic and they're like, pissed.

SPEAKER_01 23:38

This movie's not on here. Yeah, they're like, you stupid son of a bitch.

SPEAKER_02 23:44

So the film had its world premiere at the Sundance Film Festival on January 25th, 2019. On Rotten Tomatoes, the Lodge holds an approval rating of 75% based on 184 reviews, which is the most we have ever received dynamite for a movie on this podcast. The site's critic consensus reads led by an impressive Riley Keogh performance, and God will talk about that, the Lodge should prove a suitably unsettling destination for fans of Darkly Atmospheric Horror. On Metacritic, the film has a weighted score of 64 out of 100. So you are correct, based on 31 critics indicating generally favorable reviews. For this particular film, Open Critic does not have a ranking.

SPEAKER_00 24:32

Yeah, sorry guys. Which I'm gonna guess it made us money back and then some. I can't imagine this being an expensive film to shoot.

SPEAKER_02 24:58

No, no way. And I don't think Riley Keogh is getting paid very much.

SPEAKER_00 25:03

Yeah. And they're all all the actors are very like not megastars, right? So can I tell you something though?

SPEAKER_02 25:10

Yeah. This is the genius of Riley Keogh. And I'm gonna go into her performance in this particular film down below. But I want to mention that at the same time she was doing press for this, she was doing press for a movie called Zola. And Andrew, you must see this movie just for the simple fact that like she juxtaposes this role times 10. Like it is she plays an insanely extroverted hustler. And wow. And that's when I realized like this woman is probably in my top 10 favorite actresses of all time. I had no clue of like her range and her ability, and she's fucking sick.

SPEAKER_00 26:03

Yeah, I've never even heard of Zola. I think I want to watch it though. I'm just looking up right now. That looks pretty cool.

SPEAKER_02 26:08

Andrew, are you ready to get into the lodge of it all?

SPEAKER_00 26:13

Yes, let's open the door, get a cup of coffee, and sit down in a snow-squalled surrounded cabin.

SPEAKER_02 26:22

And if we get bored, we can kneel on some burning logs.

SPEAKER_00 26:26

Yeah, that'll that'll be sure to wake you up, Frank. That's one of the spa treatments. We have burning log kneeling and also face burning near a fire. So don't worry. We have all of that set up for us.

SPEAKER_02 26:40

And we also we remove your medications that you can just really feel. Oh, okay. I'm speaking for myself here. Okay, Andrew, today we're gonna break down this film scene by scene. So if you haven't seen it, pause it. Although we've a hundred percent spoiled it for you at this point. Yeah, we have. Take a break and come back and join us. You know what's funny? My friend asked me to put that line in. He's like, you should warn people that there's gonna be spoilers. But I'm like, dude, like, let's not know.

SPEAKER_00 27:18

This is not like an IGN YouTube video review of the Lodge where it's like, spoiler. No, this is like, I think this is very clear when they see a two-hour podcast. Maybe we're discussing no spoiler. No, yeah, it's a no-spoiler podcast for two hours where we have to like tip to around every scene.

SPEAKER_02 27:35

I'm like, these kids discover something in the storage closet, but I won't say what. Yeah. All right, okay, we're gonna go into the opening sequence, uh, which is very sad. So we open inside a dark hallway passage in a dark home, and the camera pans through various scenes of an uninhabited lodge. We center around a painting and then a pistol, and we realize we are inside a dollhouse. And I'll talk a little bit about the miniatures in a bit.

SPEAKER_00 28:10

Yeah, this, and also this is just the first of many things where the movie is showing you, like this dollhouse is showing you potentially maybe, who knows, what's to come later on, especially with uh that gun be the loaded revolver. That's that's a big moment for the rest of the movie in the later half of the movie. Would you call it Chekhov's pistol? I would call it Chekhov's. This is the literal Chekhov's gun, uh, actually, figuratively here, but yes, this is Chekhov's gun all day. We're gonna they show this and it plays a major part in the climax of this movie.

SPEAKER_02 28:48

We should also play a game where we're like, does Andrew know exactly what weapon this is? Because every podcast, you're like, actually, that was like a 12-loaded pump rifle.

SPEAKER_00 28:58

Like, how do you this is just simply a loaded revolver, and it's probably in the uh you know, 38 or 357 variety.

SPEAKER_02 29:08

I like that we can't reveal like why you might know this information. Anyway, I'm just gonna put that little tidbit out there. Okay, so we're introduced to Laura, played by screen legend Alicia Silverstone, who is gathering her children, Aiden and Mia, to take them to their father's home. From the backseat of the car, Mia asks, Will she be there? Laura assures the children she will not be there. And Mia follows up with she's such an R-word.

SPEAKER_00 29:44

Yeah, she says, Look, I don't think we have to censor that, just because I know it can be offensive, but this is what she says in the movie. Yeah, she says she's such a retard. And um, I'm sorry, like I just mean like what I mean is like obviously we're not gonna say anything racially charged, but I think there's some words like yeah, we know we swear, all that kind of thing. I think that's it's okay to say it if the character the character says it.

SPEAKER_02 30:05

The character says it, yeah, for sure, for sure. I wasn't sure about that, but you're right, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 30:08

And then I just want to just stop on a little scene here because this is important to what we what what comes in the next five minutes. So Alicia Silverson's character, Laura, she actually looks very pretty. She's in this like blue dress. Um, she's curling her eyelashes, but in that moment while she looks at herself in the mirror, she starts crying.

unknown 30:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 30:27

And that's it's just one of the many symptoms you're gonna see in her expression about her confrontation and her discussion with Richard in a few minutes. And yes, I I also the second point here is with Mia saying, is she gonna be there? And she's such a retard. This makes it clear to I don't know, this made it clear to me that clearly, one, there's a new woman in their father's life. Yeah, two, they obviously have solidarity with the mom in that they are team, they they are not a fan of this at all. So I actually like that that's yeah, they've obviously set that up. Uh, I know that's obvious, but I just I like that the kids are already, as this is important to the theme of the movie, predisposed. They don't like this person.

SPEAKER_02 31:08

And the thing is though, like again, I can relate to what it means to really dislike a stepparent. Like, they're suddenly like the driving force in your life, and you didn't have any agency.

SPEAKER_00 31:23

Yeah, and you know, but at least at least they have their mom. Exactly. And like they they are the representation, the scapegoat, the the vacuum, the vortex for their feelings to place their feelings in this spot that uh um is representative of the pain they're going through, right? So they have they put it all on the this new woman, even though really it's all on their father's choices, right or wrong, that's it is on the spouse's choices of what's happening, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:54

But the other thing, too, is like there is no indication in this film, at least, I mean, you correct me if I'm wrong, that Grace and Richard ever like overlapped, or that Grace like that Richard cheated on Laura.

SPEAKER_00 32:08

Yeah, it never as far as we know, we we never get any indication that um he cheated on or this overlapping, like you said, uh, but obviously him leaving Laura was obviously unexpected and deeply hurtful. Like Laura is clearly not dealing with this well already. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 32:30

So Richard opens the door to the children, embracing them, but he has something he has to share with Laura and asks the kids to busy themselves while they talk. He says he thinks they should finalize the divorce, that him and Grace are going to get married. You can see right here that she wasn't expecting him to say this. And perhaps she may even had hope they'd remain together.

SPEAKER_00 32:55

Yeah, this is this is a double nuke, really. If you see her facial expressions, um this is a twice-over bomb dropped in her lap. You know, first this is they should finalize divorce. This clearly makes any hope that this uh Laura would have for reconciliation gone. You can see it in her face, that's just like, oh, like it's that is like another blow. That's gonna set her back. That's gonna make even more sad. Yeah, and then like to then say to like to sh this isn't even a shit sandwich. This is just like shit after shit piled on of like then they're gonna say, Oh yeah, Grace and I are gonna get married in September. Like, one, this seems this split seems relatively recent based on the uh the emotions of everyone in ball, but like you're gonna tell her that also we're gonna get married in the same sentence, like maybe wait for another time, yeah. Yeah, especially if you gauge her reaction, dude. Also, this is what I was saying. Yeah, so I'll just say here this is I want to bring this up only because I wasn't sure where the movie was going with this, if they were gonna hide Grace for the whole movie, like her, we wouldn't see her face for like half the movie. But Laura does glance out the back wind, the window of the kitchen into the backyard where we see a woman leaving out the back uh gate. So just a little like this mysterious woman be leaving. Um but, anyways, back to the after drops that double truth bomb, uh not sorry, not not truth bomb, sorry. After she drops this this like emotional, two emotional bombs on her, she re like quickly snaps into this like fake smile and says, okay, and just leaves. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 34:37

So, like you said, so the news doesn't land well with Laura as she says, Okay, she exits Richard's home and slams the door behind her. And so this is where this what happens next is just cataclysmic. So we cut to Laura back at her home, straightening some books on a table before pouring herself a glass of wine. She takes a sip and she proceeds to pull a gun from her purse and shoot herself in the head, ending her life. Yeah, this is that really becomes the domino. You know, first it's Richard, then it's Laura, and everything else just falls perfectly into place.

SPEAKER_00 35:26

Yeah, and I think this movie is one of the few movies a lot of so many we've all watched TV shows, movies, where an actor or the character will pull out a gun, the camera pans away in another room outside the house, and there's another there's another angle change, and we hear the gun go off, and we just imagine what happened. Or we see blood spatter on the wall. Yeah, I I thought this was so I don't know if I was like, I think I wasn't in a haze, I was just like watching this movie. I was watching this movie. I guess I didn't anticipate this happening at all. Like, um she straightens these books out, she sits down, and I should have like taken stock of this, but it really happens in such rapid succession, and it doesn't linger, it does not give you time to see this gun. The gun is out and in her mouth, and brain's blown out all within two seconds.

SPEAKER_01 36:15

Yeah, literally. Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 36:18

Yeah, and it's so shocking. My mouth, again, I said this earlier uh when we first started talking about this movie. Uh my mouth was open. I was like, uh, and the the it has a couple lingering shots of just the empty hallways of the house. And I'll I can never explain like I I'm not I'm not into cinematography or like directing, and I just I don't know why that's so effective. I think it just lets you literally there's shots lingering on these empty, like showing the home being empty now, and then we're also left with this feeling of like shock and holy shit. The reason why I wanted to bring up her straightening the books was because that's that scene.

SPEAKER_02 37:02

So with like a fairly mundane, like either she is preparing to be found, so she wants to make sure that everything is straightened, despite the fact that there are brains on the wall to juxtaplose like the cleanliness of the home, or maybe she was busying herself in a moment of preparation. I don't know, but I think that straightening of the books was really pivotal in why that shooting was so shocking. Like I was shocked to shit by that. And like you said, it happens in there from she pulls the gun out, boom. There is no thinking or lingering.

SPEAKER_00 37:41

Yeah, you don't there's no, you there's no like you don't hear what she's messing with in her purse. She just goes into her purse and then it's out and she's dead. And I will say with the straight in the books thing, that is very much like from what we know in suicides and like the psychology behind it, and there's so much data now that people do these things before they kill themselves. This is a heavy this is a heavy topic, and like I just I'll just I just want to shoot back to really quick. I don't know why I feel the need to bring this up, but I'll just don't say shoot back to. So I'll just go back. So before up to like it's I think it was very clear that this was like I think Laura, every time she's visited Richard, was hoping that maybe something would happen because like I said before, oh 100%. She gets ready in the mirror, starts crying. On the way there, she actually her makeup's super well done, and she puts she has a she starts doing her lipstick in the mirror. So like she's very much trying to present. I think like there's there's there's two ways you could look at it, but not in this movie. I think sometimes when we know we're gonna see an ex or someone that in our past, that we we don't want to feature with, we don't reconcile, but we want to show them, hey, I've gotten hot again, like you know what I mean? Uh but I think this is so sexy, man. Yeah, but this is obviously not that this is very much like she wants to look nice in hopes that maybe this will like ignite something in Richard to be like, actually, I want you back, kind of thing. It's this yeah, it's so sad.

SPEAKER_02 39:08

Okay, now I want to talk about Alicia Silverstone for a second because this is a very small role, and a similarity that comes to mind would be like Drew Barrymore and the cold open up screen, right? This is a micro role for such a big regardless of whether she's like doing A-list stuff right now, Alicia Silverstone is a remarkable actress. And so she explicitly stated in interviews that she accepted the part because she deeply wanted to work with the film's directors. She highly respected their previous Austrian horror film, Goodnight Mommy, and viewed the duo as true artists. For Silverstone, the opportunity to collaborate with them mattered much more than the size of the role. And this is really interesting. According to Vulture, the directors deliberately chose Silverstone because they wanted a specific visual resemblance between her and the new stepmother, Riley Keogh. This Hitchcockan design choice was meant to show that the father Richard was trying to replace his ex-wife with a younger look-alike, adding an extra layer of unease for the children.

SPEAKER_00 40:24

Wow. And they, I guess they're both beautiful, eh? And they're both like I never realized it.

SPEAKER_02 40:31

Yeah, their facial features definitely look alike. But also, I think it's like another thing that comes to mind is the fact that you know, men will often try and find younger women. And in this case, he's finding a younger version of their mom. Okay, so we transition to the children all dressed in black. Emotions are high as they attend their mother's funeral. They release black balloons in honor of their late mother. So the act of suicide sets the entire film on a bad path. It changes the children. Not only were they affected by their father's new relationship, but they are intensely affected by their mother's death. So it's this inception of grief that kind of propels them to blame. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry, Frank. No, no, no. That's all I wanted to say.

SPEAKER_00 41:32

Well, that was really well said. I uh I'll just say too, right before the funeral scene, I think this is important to mention. Uh, we get another little lingering shot inside that um cabin dollhouse. The dollhouse actually looks like a cabin. And it is an adult woman and two children figures laying down in a living room. And that's important for what is later on in the film.

SPEAKER_02 41:56

I actually do want to bring that up because, like, as we transition from this opening sequence of Laura's death, we are presented with miniatures displaying various scenes, one of which you just mentioned. And according to Toronto Life, the tiny models mirror real-world events before they happen, adding to the psychological tension. So they represent a loss of control, showing that the main characters are essentially puppets in a dollhouse. But you are right to suggest that they are foreboding.

SPEAKER_00 42:31

Yeah, this movie does like I like this movie a lot because it it's this movie tells you what's going to happen or what has happened with no like there's no ambiguity about it, but uh ambiguo ambiguousness? I don't know. Ambiguity. But yet it's it doesn't matter because it's still what you see later on is still so shocking and effective that like you're like, oh, like I guess you you you don't really realize what you're seeing until you see it.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

Obviously, that's not the when I saw the miniatures, I had no idea what I was just like, oh, like I get that they're like interior shots, I get that these are representative of the characters, but I didn't realize that there was going to be any sort of foreshadowing. I just didn't get that. No, me neither. I don't get a lot of things. Sometimes when I watch movies, I'm very literal. Like some people will talk to me and I'll be like, I don't see that. And the other thing too is like, if you have to read about it, then you didn't get that either. Like, I'll give you a perfect example. One, this is the thing that pisses me off. Mulhelen Drive, when you are watching Mulhellen Drive, it is nearly impossible to understand what is happening. It is engineered like that. And that is according to David Lynch. So you get a bunch of fucking people saying, like, oh no, no, no, I get it, girl. I get it. And I'm like, you don't get it. You read an opinion piece and now you get it. You didn't fucking get it. Anyway, I could go pop off on this because, but anyway, all that to Say that this was actually not that deep. This is pretty literal.

SPEAKER_01 44:03

No, but yeah, I no, you're I think that's like they're showing us exactly what's going to happen.

SPEAKER_00 44:10

Yeah, this this is a this is a movie. I guess what I'll say about this, my my final thought on on like these dioramas and what we see later is that I thought that you know what is it gonna play is this movie gonna play at the supernatural? I thought, is there gonna be an ambiguousness about the ending or what happened? Ambiguity. Yeah, ambiguity. Um apologize for my pronunciation pronunciation of that word. Um, but this movie is very much like it has a definitive path, it has a definitive ending, and yet it's still so much just as effective as those movies that like kind of leave you with the audience to like figure it out on their own. So like I love this movie for that reason. It's kind of funny, like mom was asking me if she'd like this movie, and I was like, I don't think does it have a crazy monster that's trying to kill the main protagonist or a slasher ending? No, then no, she will not like it.

SPEAKER_01 45:09

I said, Mom, I don't think you're gonna like the ending. And she's like, honey, why? And I'm like, I just don't think you're gonna like it.

SPEAKER_00 45:18

Yeah, I think I think Mom is a on the nose, one like visceral horror. Either it's either gonna be a creature feature or a possession film, and she's in. If it's not that, if it's a psychological horror, she's not she's hard to sell on that.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Yeah, and she does not like an ending that does not wrap cleanly, right? Yeah, she'll be like, Oh, I love that movie, and then she'll be like, honey, and then by the end, she's like, honey, I hated that movie. I didn't like it.

SPEAKER_01 45:48

I'm like, because the ending wasn't happy.

SPEAKER_02 45:52

Yeah, love her. Okay, I digress anyway. Okay, so we cut to six months after Laura's funeral, where Richard is hosting a dinner with the kids, and he wants to talk to them about something important. He asks them, how would you feel about going to the mountains for Christmas? And Aiden asks if he'll be working. Richard says he'll pick them up once school finishes and return on the 25th. He thinks it would be a good idea for the kids to get to know Grace and, you know, have some fun. Aiden protests to this idea. And Richard finally tells the children he's going to marry Grace. It's here we learn the kids blame Grace for their mother's untimely passing. And he tells Richard he left my mom for a psychopath. I want to mention here that not only the kids, listen to this, not only are they dealing with the challenges of a new stepmom, which we said, which can be like incredibly painful for a kid, but they're also lacking any parental support from their mom. Like they are literally like adrift with zero support systems and no life raft.

SPEAKER_00 47:12

Yeah, there's this is like so I this scene, like I said this before, we've we've discussed about who you know who's like evil in this movie, who's bad, who's a bad person. And from what from what we can understand with the limited limited dialogue here available, is that my impression is that that the father we has not done anything to put them into some kind of grief counseling or like set them up with like guidance counselors at school. Like, we don't know any of this stuff. It kind of seems like they were left to like live with their father and sit with this grief. Um, and he just like seems to lack like bedside men or attacked with his kids. Like he's so he's so driven by this like I gotta make things work with Grace. Yes. Um, and I'm gonna I'm gonna fire back here. I just I want to go back to just a scene, it's important to the film and what Grace sees in the cabin going forward. And I have to bring this up here. So just after the funeral, Mia's crying in the bed, and Richard is trying to comfort her. And Mia is devastated and keeps saying mom's not going to heaven. And this is important because it establishes, we kind of get the impression based on some things around the home earlier that we briefly see, but it obviously reveals that Laura was deeply religious, and her kids have been taught that as well. So, for those who don't know, I mean many of many of you do know, but for those listening who don't know, especially in the Christian faith, Catholicism, um, and actually pretty much all sects of Christianity, suicide is taught. Like you kill yourself, you don't get to go to heaven. It's a very, very, very sad thing that's taught. And it's sad that it's in the Bible. Um, because and I think the when these words were originally put to paper, it was probably to discourage those from committing suicide, but that's not how that works. And it just causes more devastation to deeply to families who who are very religious because they now believe that their person who was kind loving, who killed themselves, is going to hell. And I'm not I'm not gonna go super into my my religious talk here, but um holy shit, like I've said this before, and Frankie, I know you can probably blate yourself, but there's a certain marginalized community that we, you know, the LGBTQ plus community um that has been consistently told they're going to hell throughout their whole lives by religious figures. And all because you don't you don't do things a certain way. And this movie sets this up because it's gonna juxtap it's gonna juxtapose um Grace's uh upbringing in that cult versus the iconography and imagery she's gonna see in this cabin and why she is averse to it, and why Richard asked her, is it asks her several times, is it okay that's that those items are there? So it's I think it's an important setup for later on.

SPEAKER_02 50:17

And I'll just because you'll notice that she re-embraces them later. Well, to devastating effect. Yeah. This next scene, this is really pivotal in how the children take action because, in my opinion, what they're about to see would affect them, and they still decide to go forth with their plan. So later that evening, Aiden and Mir huddled around the computer. They're Googling Grace. We learn that Grace is the daughter of a religious sect leader, and that at 12 years old, she was the sole survivor of a mass suicide that left 39 people dead. Everyone committed suicide but her. So we're watching videotapes of someone descending a staircase into a basement where we pan around to the dead bodies of the sect with the word sin taped to their mouths. Who is filming but Grace? So this young lady has been through some deeply disgusting traumatic programmatization.

SPEAKER_00 51:38

Yeah, and we also during this during this filming, um, we also get played some audio of the I'm gonna guess the head, the the cult leader. And it's this is important for later because he says stuff like repent. He he's overlaid with the footage, and he's just basically creepy religious stuff he starts saying. And she was left alive to, it says there, to carry the message. Like she she it she didn't commit suicide because she was too afraid, or they they purposely chose her to witness this and film it to show the world, like to carry the message forward, kind of thing. And I thought it was extra devastating and extra creepy.

SPEAKER_02 52:22

But I also think like the real reason, like that that is one. I think the real reason is because the father Aaron, the sect leader, didn't want his daughter to die.

SPEAKER_00 52:34

Like that is something like I think I also am just realizing now that that was his liter that her literal father, so thank you for saying that. Yeah, I did not know that.

SPEAKER_02 52:44

I don't know how you're gonna. Yeah, so but it's interesting because this sets up like Grace's entire being. And I can't speak to actually I I I can speak to trauma, but not trauma, obviously, like this. But she has put together every every imagine an egg. She has re-taped the shell back together and has spent years reprogramming herself and pushing down the trauma, using medication to ensure she can live a normal life. Like this woman is fragile, and this experience was disgusting. Like, think about the think about her makeup going into the lodge.

SPEAKER_00 53:41

Yeah, no, we we that we have real life examples of the long-term effects that being brought up in a cult can have. And you there are success stories where people, it take it, you're right, it takes it takes years of like deprogramming slowly and methodically with you know psychologists and therapists uh on a like a regimen of like deprogramming these people and tell them actually this was all wrong and and for these reasons. And there are still people like there's people from uh the Waco tragedy that believe they're they're alive in society, the the cult's gone, but there's they've interviewed, I think they've interviewed someone who still believes in the cult, like they believed in the message, but just like, oh, it's over, so you know I can't do anything about it. So like some people don't get deprogrammed properly, and I think that's just uh the the real world implications of the real world, I guess tapping into what we know about cults is just it's this makes this extra creepy for me.

SPEAKER_02 54:42

Yeah, I I think it's really it's deeply sad that Grace it just makes it all the more like sad that she's subjected to because you know, I watched the Lodge a long time ago, probably when it came out, and I haven't watched it in what six years, I'd say. And I I was under the impression that like maybe Grace was a nefarious character, but but you know, you watch this film and you're like, this is just a woman trying to fall in love and trying to do the right things, she is again like medicated to ensure she has like the right, you know, she has good mental health. Like she's like I said, like she is so fragile, and I don't think Richard, you could argue, realizes that. Like he like he knows of her past because he he featured her in one of his articles.

SPEAKER_00 55:54

Yeah, so that's that's that's important for you to say. So that is a that's a really important point here is how we find out how we find out why these two even met is that he's a writer and he did a piece on the cult and her and met her through doing research. So that like it just adds a little bit of grossness to it, I guess. Yeah, it does. It's like he found this wonderful girl, and then when he met he met her as an adult, and she's like she's hot and she's good looking, and he's just like, oh, like it just that to me, like I know he's a writer and he's not like you know, he's not like a police detective or anything, but it's just like you're now violating your professional conduct as a journalist or a writer to kind of fulfill personal ends. I find that kind of but the heart wants what it wants, who knows? No hallmarks, but like that, like obviously she's spent she's an adult, she's not a kid anymore. She's of they've obviously she's probably had years of therapy, she's on medication. I guess to ask the question is that like Rich Richard, is did Richard do anything wrong here? Because Richard could argue that he met this woman, maybe she's well adjusted, she's on medication, she's an adult now, she's a fully functioning member of society. Um and so it's fine. But then party is left to wonder is she still vulnerable to to influence that maybe? I guess the answer is yes. Yeah, is yeah, like check? Like, yeah, I guess, yeah. So that's that's I I think that's my my thing that I'll say there is it just kind of adds a little bit of distasteful, it leaves a sour taste in your mouth thinking about did in Richard doing this piece and researching and meeting her kind of breaches professional boundaries and turn this into something a little distasteful. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 57:48

Yes, I wanted to so according to an article, the tragedy of the lodge is deeply rooted in Richard's decisions. He makes the insensitive decision to force a rushed getaway to a remote cabin with his traumatized children and psychologically fragile fiance. Think about that. And not only that, but he's going there with the full intention of leaving for five days, 40, I don't know, but he he's not even going to be there to help facilitate the relationship. Either this guy is fucking stupid, aloof, or doesn't give a shit. Like there are no redeeming qualities to his decision making.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

None. Yeah, yeah. Like it, he just like I said this, I kind of said this before, but like with no groundwork laid, not like a luncheon meeting, not like little, I guess, little bits of setup along the way, like, hey, let's have a dinner here and there, just like just dinner, just a lunch, just a coffee, just like a treat, an ice cream date. He doesn't slowly introduce Grace to the kids. He very much is like gonna throw them in what ends up being a pressure cooker style environment and leaves.

SPEAKER_01 59:07

Yeah, like good luck, everybody. Yeah. Oh, forget. I was gonna say okay. I turned now.

SPEAKER_03 59:14

Good luck, everybody else.

SPEAKER_02 59:19

All right. So, with this perfect storm, we enter the lodge. So I want to talk about the filming location really quickly. So the entire film was shot on location in Quebec, filming in an actual lodge located on a real golf course outside of Montreal. Because the golf resort was completely closed for the winter season, the casting crew had exclusive access to the property. So the directors deliberately avoided heavy digital special effects. The biting cold, heavy blizzards, and frozen landscapes shown in the movie were entirely real. So they were quite literally at an abandoned lodge. That's so sick. I know, it's really cool. It's like they really help facilitate as an actor environment.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:13

I think one thing I would love to be an actor for is that kind of thing where you know you're gonna film on certain locations that it would just be so exciting to be in as an actor, I think.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

But we'll hear more about their experience. Oh shit. Uh filming. It's so funny because like even in Evil Dead, you're like, oh man, if I was gonna get barfed on, I'd wouldn't care. And then like the uh oh, but like the main act forget it, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:46

No, you're you're yeah, I know what you're saying. Like, I said too, like, I I felt this way watching um Ash or Sevil Dead. Like, I think those actors had a lot of fun being sprayed with the goop. Um, and I feel like if I was filming a Minevil Dead movie, I think I would just have so much fun being sprayed with blood and guts, and like that would just be such a fun fun. Like when they cut, just like laugh with your co-stars. But obviously, like Jay Levy had a miserable time. So it's like maybe not for everybody. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:15

It depends, but I mean, like, get over it, girl. You're getting paid like how much? Yeah, that's a thing. That's how I feel. Yeah, anyway. Like, it's all in good fun, right? Okay, so while settling into the lodge, we learn that Grace is taking medication. And we learn this medication is taken when she's feeling kind of unsettled or bothered. We also learn that she hides the medication from Richard. So he says to Grace, he doesn't think he should go to the city, he doesn't want to leave her with the kids. She reaffirms it's okay, that it will only be a couple of days. She can do a couple of days. But I want to point out here that if Richard was aware she was taking her medication and perhaps maybe more aware of her mental well-being, would he have left her there with the kids? Like, did he have all of the information he required? Which is then what fuels my thought about him being aloof? Question mark.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:21

Yeah, and the thing is too, is like, this is not these medications, the medication she's on is not like an anxiety med, not to downplay those at all. This is very clearly antipsychotic. And not only that, it like we get shown in the movie when she gets close to like I I it might maybe misrememory, it might even play like a tinnitus sound at some point when she's kind of zoning out. But um when she gets close to entering these like fugue-like states or a catatonic state, she goes and pops a pill, like in a in a rush. And so revealing that this medication is like it's serious, like she needs to have access to it at all times.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:04

Yeah. So before Richard departs, he wants to show Grace something: a family heirlam, a pistol belonging to Laura's dad, another Chekhov's gun, Andrew.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:20

What does Richard think is even a possibility at this cabin where she would need a revolver? I'm gonna guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:29

If you think in the United States in gun culture, maybe he's like, you need to protect yourself. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:34

That's not around. I don't know. I think this, I think you're right. I think this is very much um a case where he knows they're gonna be left alone, and in case there's an intruder in the house, here's a revolver. I think that's based the I don't think there's too much deep thought that is needed here. I think that's very much the case of like um in case something bad goes wrong, you have a home invader, someone's outside the cabin, here's a revolver. Fucked up.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:00

But it's weird because they don't only, it's not not only the fact that they like to show the gun, which I think would have been enough, but he takes her outside to ensure that like she can safely use the gun. And it appears not only can she use the gun, but she's actually really good at using the gun.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:17

Yeah, she aims it and hits the tree like four times in a row.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

So she's had previous training with a gun. Which could speak volumes, but we all let that one.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:30

Yeah, you can see it in her face. She's not scared to use the gun. She has a termination in her face and she shoots the gun with confidence, which indicates to me an experienced shooter, right?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:38

So it also indicates to me that perhaps she has a gun and has learned how to shoot it because of the fear of what happened to her.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:50

I can see someone like I can see someone who's alone at home, knowing that past experience, wanting protections like that in place, yeah. It's very Sydney. Yeah, I guess it is kind of final girlish.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Yeah, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:04

100%. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:06

So, okay. So listen to this. So Richard leaves the lodge, and we really don't check back in with him until God knows when. Because, and we'll talk about this later, the timing at the lodge is slightly ambiguous, but we really do not hear from Richard whether that's communication, we'll talk about that. Whether that's, you know, trying to get to the lodge, we'll talk about that. We do not hear from this guy for what seems to be weeks.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:37

Yeah, it seems like a lot of time passes before he even returns. And we don't, we don't we're never let we're never told explicitly is this two, three, four, seven days. You just don't know.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:50

There is a clock that Grace kind of plays with later, and I'll let you know what the date is. But the That would anyway, we'll talk about it, but yeah, we really don't. Richard is gone, so he's left. So this is where things start to heat up and get a little weird. And I have another Chekhov's uh gun, but it's imperative that I mention this. Grace has a dog named Grady, and she mentions she got him as a present to herself. She said, whenever I was able to sort of put all that behind me, he was my new life. So this is the one thing that like tethers her. Yeah, good word. There's the word anchor there. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, and anchor. And I think like, you know, you talk about support animals. Like, this animal's very pivotal in her mental health journey. Yes, this is what I kids fucking know that.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:53

Yeah. They this is very much like what I would call like a stabilization anchor for her her mind. Is like she has these very few little things in her life that she can anchor herself to, and that dog is definitely one of them. And what the kids do later is, in my opinion, just is even is just awful and evil.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:15

That's what I mean. So at this point, it does seem as though the kids and Grace are kind of bonding, at least from the perspective of the audience. Mia, however, shows Grace a present she got for her father. A video of the kids and their mom making snow angels at the lodge. So Grace seems mildly disturbed by this or caught off guard and decides to take a breather.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:42

And it's very much like it's very much indicative of like the classic dead wife video you see in like revenge movies and stuff like that. Like you, it's a lot of close-up of Laura, she's laughing and smiling at the kids, and like that probably would be off catch you off guard or hard to watch as the new love interest, the new partner.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:00

But this is like this also like drops a subtle hint of like aggression from Mia toward Grace. Yeah. Because she knows showing her this is going to upset her. So this is like what I call stage one of making of removing the shell.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:22

Yep. They're trying to strip away the defenses on this uh on Grace.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:28

Damn, man. So the next day, Grace approaches Aiden, who up until this point has been like locked away in his bedroom, and she says that they need to have a conversation. She wants to know if there's something she can do to alleviate the tension between them. He says he doesn't want to talk to her. So she's making a good college try here to attempt at creating like something with the kids, like an attempt at normalcy, like an attempt at alleviating further tension. And I enjoy this because, like I said, like up until this point, like we have no evidence that Grace has done anything wrong except fall in love.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:07

Yeah, and I think too, like I'll just I'll just bring up briefly, right before this, um uh we see it's it's we actually get a full nude scene of uh Grace getting out of the shower, and she's um is it is the word mom or something written in the mirror? I forget. I think something's written in the mirror.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:26

It is, it's mom, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:09:28

Yeah, that's that's just something up for later, anyways. But um, and she's just like showering herself off, she's just drying herself off, and we see the door is actually slightly ajar, and Aiden's been looking at her. And I think this is just a catalyst for her to finally confront Aiden, like as opposed to like letting him get get away with like hiding the whole time. This is what drives her to say, like, look, dude, we're gonna have a little chat right now because this is like going too much, it's getting too much, right? Yeah, so agreed. Yeah, yeah. She's she's definitely making a tem because she even makes she even makes a comment. Yeah, like she's like, Are you gonna talk to me or are you just gonna stare at me in the shower? Like, you know what I mean? Like she says that to him.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:04

Yeah. Like she is coming out of his bedroom, but he's not coming out for anything normal.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:10

Yeah, and it kind of his even his face kind of changes. I think it does kind of like help drive the point home about how he's behaving.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:19

Can I just take a moment to say that I fucking I get that these kids have succumbed to trauma, but I fucking hate these little bastards. Yeah, the more that was an outburst. I'm probably gonna have four outbursts like that throughout the podcast because the extent to which they go drives me fatty.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:40

Yeah, the the the what as I'm talking about this this movie out loud, and that this happens a lot when we when I do these podcasts, but um, I am even more and more realizing that like, you know what, despite this their their poor setup of like being good through grief and their father's decision making, yeah, they still take several evil decisions that just like for me are irrevocably like that you you can't come back from.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:06

That's a step too far. Well, obviously it's a step too far, but yeah. Okay, I want to talk a little bit about the isolation between the characters for a minute. So, in a screen rant interview, the cast of the law revealed that directors intentionally isolated Riley Keog from the child actors to mirror on-screen tension. So while Keo was isolated, Martel and McHugh, the kids, bonded through like shared offset activities like ice skating, playing in an abandoned hotel bar, and just kind of like being around the lodge, just being able to be kids. And Leah McHugh mentioned that by the end of the shoot, they didn't really have to act like they were suffering from cabin fever anymore. Like the exhaustion, claustrophobia, and restlessness were completely real for all of them.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:58

Yeah, and that's I mean, I think unfortunately for them, but unfortunately for us, that obviously adds their performance, I'm sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:06

But I want to sorry.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:08

No, no, no, go on. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:10

I was just gonna say, like, the reason I wanted to bring that up because earlier you mentioned it would have been like a blast to be on set and be an actor, but because of this particular like director pair and the way that they like to shoot, like, not only is it chronological, not only is it on set, not only is it in icy conditions, they're also isolating the actors to create this on-screen tension. So, in a way, I mean, that could potentially be traumatic and not very fun.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:12:41

So it's it's interesting. Like, I just found that like incredibly interesting. And it it makes it it makes me believe their roles in this film even more after reading that. It's like kind of nuts.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:56

Yeah, that I that's I I I guess if you were literally had to film in a cabin and you they did film this chronologically and it was day after day surrounded by snow and isolation, I think that would just get to anybody, regardless of why you were there. So I think I could I can definitely sympathize.

unknown 1:13:13

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:14

Thinking about this a little more like actual, like logistically, I think that would kind of get to you, especially if you're not used to any of that kind of environment.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:22

Yeah, like these people probably live in LA, dude. Like they know Canadian fucking winter man, like even me. I have television and a cell phone. And after like a month of winter, I'm like, dude, like I need something, you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:41

No, 100%.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:43

Okay. Now, all right. I think it's important to mention what the nighttime looks like for Grace. So after an evening of watching the thing, Grace mysteriously awakes outside on the lake in the deep snow. The ice begins to melt and creak beneath her, and as she falls through, is pulled down into the icy depths by her father, Aaron. And so the reason I want to mention this, and I'm not gonna mention all of the nighttime shenanigans with Grace, but I want to highlight how often, despite seeming normal, the trauma of her past is still somewhat fresh in her unconscious life. Because this is her like medicated, this is her at the at the at the at the lodge, but this is how close to the surface those memories are.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:35

But I also I have to interject here because the I remember remarking out loud to this. I was like, man, like she's she is sleeping right through the night. She she sleeps, has this awful dream, wakes up in the morning. But the setup here is correct me if I'm wrong, is this the night they fall asleep with the space heater in? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So two things happen before she falls asleep. They're watching the thing, by the way, one of my favorite movies, and we for we will for sure cover that um as probably my favorite horror movie of all time. We will definitely be covering that. Um, but we see them watching it, she's grossed out, but they change it. But two things happen. She is given a cup of hot chocolate by Aiden. This is important to remark upon. And the space heater is put in to heat them up. And Grace remarks upon this by saying, Is it dangerous to have that thing going in here? So those two are very important setups. The the the drink she is given is clearly we find out later, contains a sleeping pill. And two, the space heater is the pivotal, the pivotal item, the McGuffin for Aiden's gaslighting that literally, I guess. Literally, yeah, no pun intended here, gaslighting of grace, which is in the days to come or the or the hours. I don't know, we don't know how long. And I believe the reason why we get several, and I know there's another dream sequences, but I think the reason why we get several super um like well, I what's what's the term? Super vivid? Yeah, vivid. So the reason why I believe Grace is having vivid dreams. I don't think this is always normal for her. I don't. I think she definitely has trauma and these dreams happen. The sleeping pills are like making her have such a deep sleep that she is going into the depths of like the recesses of her mind and it's bringing these things forward more than ever. And then, of course, we're gonna combo that later with no medication, which makes it even worse. So Jesus.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:43

Okay, well, uh, good points. Okay, so as you said, so this is where things get really weird. So Grace awakes the following morning to a dead phone, for it appears there's a storm outside, and it's caused a power outage. Mia alerts Grace to an empty fridge, and Grace immediately asks if this is some kind of joke. The kids swear up and down they have nothing to do with this. But the real kicker, the Pieste Resistance, which we've been talking about, when Grace heads upstairs, she finds that not only are all her things missing, but her pills are missing. And the first thing she says is, I need my pills. Where are my pills? And like I said, if you take pills for mental health reasons like I do, you need your fucking pills above anything else that would ever happen to me in this situation like this. That would be the one thing that would cause me the most anguish is her medication. And so they have effectively removed everything from this woman's life.

SPEAKER_00 1:18:06

Yeah, and like we've had we've had a couple, I think by now, too. I know we we don't want to go every over every night sequence here. There's a couple things I want to say here, though. Um, Grace had bought Christmas presents for the kids, yeah, and tucked them away in a drawer. And she actually woke up one morning. This is before this night sequence. She wakes up one morning with the gifts and the Laura doll in a suitcase under her bed, not in the drawers where she put them. So this is this is one, it's indicated she's been given a sleeping pill before this this night has happened. And it's that's even more insidious setup to gaslight her into thinking that she is devolving and going crazy. 100%. And back to the medication, I think I think nowadays not so much, but I think a lot of people it's very easy for the ignorant, healthy-minded individual to demonize medication and like why can't someone just go through it, right? Like, come on, like just exercise and eat properly, right? That's a common thing when it comes to depression.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:19:15

Um, so but absolutely like medications are there for a reason, right? And holy shit, is this there for an essential reason? Because even up to this point, I mentioned this before, but we've had we obviously can't go over every single shot in this film. We'd be here for five hours, but um, there are several, there's a couple scenes that we've we that you'll see along the way up until this point where she goes to take her pill because you see in her mind, like you see in her face, that like either stress, it's the when she watched the video with Laura in it that Mia made, um that she will start slipping into a certain state, which we'll see later without these pills, and that immediately will take her out of it. And now she doesn't have access to that. And that's I think this is very scary setup for what's gonna happen. Yeah, big time.

SPEAKER_02 1:20:05

So even more important than the pills, arguably, above all else, Grady has also gone missing, and like I said, the one thing tethering her to a normal, happy, stable life. So between Grady and the medication, the children have completely not only destabilized her, but like set her on a path of destruction, and they are like in the they are totally creating their own demise, and they don't even know it. They don't know what they're fucking with.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:49

They don't at all. And also, uh at this point, to be fair, at this point to the audience, we don't really know for sure what's happening at this point. No, yes, we obviously don't, yeah, we have the context of what does happen. So, like, obviously the kids, yes, they're clear to set up for demise, but very creepy in this film. We're we're kind of left to wondering what is happening. Obviously, like her, we question the kids like why would this stuff just go missing, right? Yeah, so just just something to remember that I'm trying to remember here is that we don't have the context yet of like what's what the kids have truly done yet.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:17

No, and I think like that was what I was talking about before. It's like to talk about this film from like the first watch perspective versus like we've all seen it. It's like now that I've seen it, I'm like, I it's almost like this is what I found. If I'm with some movies, I'll watch it twice, and I can definitely maintain the perspective of like the original watch, like whether it's a slasher film. This one is different because I can't like unsee like the devastating effects, like all the things that are put in motion. Like yeah, I I try to watch it from the perspective of Grace. Like, she doesn't realize what is happening, but she has a healthy skepticism at this point. And I think this is really interesting, and we'll kind of talk about this, but her skepticism goes from really high at the beginning of this experiment down to completely gone by the end of it. Yeah. And it's that measurement alone that you can kind of gauge her, her, her, um, her kind of connection to reality and that skepticism. But like when that goes away, I I don't know, man. It just seems like they're just slowly chipping away at this woman's.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:33

Well, yeah, they they they cause this you basically this woman has an outer protective shell. She has skepticism that she's probably learned to be skeptic uh sorry, skeptical of things around her because the lack of skepticism is how you got in cults, how you get in cults in the first place. We wanted to ask you a question.

SPEAKER_02 1:22:52

So what do you think the children's goal is here? Because I like it obviously ends up devastating, but what was their original intention? Like what what what did they think was going to occur?

SPEAKER_00 1:23:11

I think Aiden's ultimate goal here is to literally drive her crazy so that she would appear crazy to their father and he'd be like, holy shit, I'm dating the crazy person and get rid of her.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:23

Yeah, that makes sense. And I think Mia being a young is just along for the ride, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:29

But she is pretty fucking vindictive. Well, yeah, and she is also like there's solidarity with her and her brother. Like she clearly supports what her brother's doing here. Yeah. But I think you're right, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:39

It's it's to expose her to their dad. Yeah. But but again, they they don't realize what that entails.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

No, they do not realize what they're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:23:50

Yeah, it's it's crazy. So, okay, later that day, this is where I just uh okay. Later that day, Aiden says to Grace he had a weird dream last night that the gas heater, the one accompanying them while they were watching the movie the previous night, started smoking and we all suffocated. So now that kind of starts to set the groundwork for Grace's decline. Not only does Adam say this, but I've coupled two more things that happen to Grace over the course of the next day, and I want you to think of these three things in succession. So later that day, as Grace is using boiled water to bathe in the sink, which is also just take that as like a little bit ridiculous. The steam from the water reveals the words on the mirror and they say repent. And two, she wakes later that evening to find a series of uniform snow angels like the one Laura and the kids made outside the kitchen window covering the ground. So what these events do is start to incite the past. So as we pan in on the snow angels, we start to hear her father Aaron tell her to repent her sins and just confess.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:23

Yeah, and and with that, we're we think, again, as the audience, there's good evidence to suggest this is happening in their mind, right? We think it's happening in their mind, or it could be, especially with the words repent, the his voice, but holy shit, do we find out even that is not is is not in our mind. It's it's uh more shit that uh Aiden ends up doing. But yeah, at this point, I think, like I said, the movie is about to, because Aiden even Aiden even suggests, I think you're gonna say this in a minute, but um the movie is suggesting to the audience at this point that maybe are they living in some purgatory. Like, are they dead already? Like, like like Aiden's dream suggested, right? Like you, as the audience, you might be able to believe this at this point.

SPEAKER_02 1:26:14

You know what? I I want to deposit something here. So I understand that there is a speaker that we see later that contains Aaron's vocals. However, I'm taking her seeing the snow angels as not a dream. I'm taking this her seeing the snow angels as she woke up, she's seeing something that the kids deliberately did to freak her out again. And that she is starting to crack and let in some of that like below the surface, whether the sleeping pill was the thing that like incited it on the first night or not. I think that slowly the things that she's taught she's tried to repress are starting to seep in. And I took this as more of a literal, she is starting to hear echoes of the past. And this is why, you know what I mean? Like, we're starting to see the groundbreak. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I want to talk about Keo's performance for a second. Several critics singled out Keo's lead performance with praise, including Michael Rothman of Consequence of Sound, who deemed it a career best. He says so much of Keo's performance contends with the bitter silence of reproach, isolation, and abandonment. Keo thrives in these moments, oozing with all kinds of anxious body language. It's in her glances, those stares, the way she timidly saunters from room to room. She's a vessel of tragedy that's all the more tragic in her vicious attempts to keep on trying. And I know that I have like beaten this to death and probably will continue to, but but it's very sad on second watch. I know it's not from the audience's initial perspective, but it's very sad to see someone who has tried so hard to just be given all of the ingredients to fail. It just like continues to like pluck at my and that's what I thought about this film. Yeah, and that's what I thought. Like why I thought this film was like so genius, because it's akin to torture, and it just is continual throughout the entire film.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:45

Yeah, and like I don't know how anyone could ever see Grace in this movie. I'm not saying there is, but like how anyone could see Grace as having been anything but like an honest character in this movie, and like she's just it's so devastating to see, like, especially as the when we get the reveal later. Um, it's just so fucking all these kids, man. It's so evil and it's so sad what is happening to her.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:13

So Grace decides, and this is again, this is another you know, Grace clicking back into current day Grace. So she decides she can't handle the isolation and wants to walk to the next town to find some help, and she ventures out into the frozen landscape bearing only a blanket. I would like to say that the kids don't do much to prevent her from doing this.

SPEAKER_00 1:29:44

Yeah, they do, they actually do plead with her to stay, which is surprising. But yeah, they they they don't stop her at all, obviously. They can't, but then they don't really do much else other than say, please stay. So do you take that as a sign of oh, this might be too far? Yeah, I think I I think maybe that they realize that they don't want her to die. Like, I don't think they want her dead. Um, I think they're thinking, like, I think could even see Aiden saying, oh shit, she's gone maybe a little too stir crazy or crazy. Uh, let's try and keep her in the cabin. And then she's like, nope, I'm leaving. And I have another question. Where is the dog? We don't know yet, right? We don't know. No, no. I'm asking you, like, what do you think the kids did with the dog? So, like I said before, at this point, I when I'm watching this, we I don't know why the dog is missing yet. I don't. Um I don't think I even questioned it too much, other than maybe the dog got out somehow. I think I did say that out loud. Oh, the dog must have got out somehow. Because I I I didn't think for a second at this point, like that the kids would kill a dog. Like, I just don't think that would be I didn't think that at all, but upon my first watch. Um, so I I think in my mind, I just kind of put it on my mind and say, like, I think the dog got out somehow.

SPEAKER_02 1:31:05

I believe that the kids put the dog into a an outhouse or a you know, a shed, and we're trying to like keep it alive. Okay, yeah, that's fair. I think there was an attempt to like, hey, because like you said, like the when she goes out to seek help, we're starting to see the kids go, oh, okay. But then I'll call attention to a series of events that happen later where they anyways, it's it's almost like I don't the thing about this story is like I don't want to keep saying the same thing over and over again because it's like we keep beating it to death that like obviously they're gaslighting, it's terrible, it's gaslighting it's terrible. It's like, but I think this scene just shows that like this is they've now lost control of Grace within the dwelling. Like, she is now out in the wild trying to seek help, and by all accounts, they're not letting her in on the fact that she doesn't need to do that, you know?

SPEAKER_00 1:32:17

Yeah, it's uh it's this is devastating too, considering we I mean we learn later that's a generator that the kids were not turning on on purpose. Like these fuckers, man. Sorry, it's just like goddamn.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:31

Okay, so Grace traverses the lake and begins her journey across the empty winter wonderland, and she sees a cabin atop a hill and in the window a figure. She calls out, but no one answers. When she realizes no one is there, she sobs uncontrollably. So she decides to continue forth and comes upon the lodge, the one where the children are, and realizes she's done a complete circle. So at this point, she breaks down in total despair. Okay, and at this point has nearly completely shattered her spirit. The fight that drove her to seek help has just dissipated.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:20

Yeah, and this is like I think it's it's it's like also like a what is it, not a metaphor, but kind of like a winter storm or being exposed to elements literally and figuratively could could wear anyone down. Like continuously trekking with improper gear in a hostile, I know you said Wonderland, I know that was a joke because it is obviously a hellscape. And um I think that would wear anyone down and want to seek, you know, a warm fireplace, a warm house. But the fact that like she weathered this journey as a last-itch attempt and there's nothing to go back to is just like the spirit breaker here. And it's just like because there's no refuge after this, if there's no coming back to a warm fireplace and a cup of coffee, it's like it's just devastating.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:10

I want to say though, like going back to the original intention of the script being a little bit paranormal. I think this whole scene, like on first watch, which we said a million times, when I first watched this film, I thought this was. Do you know? Okay, there are other films where characters are actually trapped in purgatory.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:36

I thought that too for a second.

SPEAKER_02 1:34:37

And so I thought that her circle was like she wasn't able to escape the very limited real estate that she has access to in the other world.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:48

It was like that movie uh identity.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:50

Yes, I was just thinking of that. Exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:53

One of the characters, like, fuck this. They try they get in the car and they try and drive down the highway and they come upon the motel again. Yes, exactly. As if there being other forces, Eldritch forces are keeping them in this little snow globe uh that they cannot leave.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:08

Yeah. Yeah, and so I I think that that part of the movie is slightly confusing because we is that a glimpse into like did Grace not go very far? Did she actually double back? Like, we're not sure. But I also like that this scene is, in my opinion, like highly ambiguous. Like, I'm not sure if this was a fever dream. Like you said, the cold can do things to the human body and mind that might force her to you know see things or hallucinate. Or anyway, I just thought this scene was really, really, really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:51

Especially because I think the figure in the window is very clearly her father.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:55

Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:56

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:57

I'm leaving out very important details.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:00

It's not that you uh though she she got thank God.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:07

Yeah, it's not just a figure she's in the window, it's it's very obviously odd. It's it's the uh face and hair. It's it's the it's the pastor, it's the cult leader guy. It could be that guy that does the paintings. Yeah, it could be like the local landscaper for like the lodge. I don't know what you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:24

No, I'm talking about, you know, that guy that paints landscapes. Anyway, we can move forward.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:29

Do you mean Bob? Was it Bob Ross? Yeah. Yeah. He's in this movie as a cameo. Yeah. Oh god, the jokes aren't flowing today, but I'm trying.

SPEAKER_01 1:36:43

It's okay, dude. You're fine. All right, Andrew, listen to fucking this.

SPEAKER_02 1:36:51

As if things couldn't get more fucked up. The children are found the next morning praying on the living room floor. Aiden has found a bulletin, and what does it say, Andrew? It displays the deaths of Aiden, Mia, and Grace. And Aiden repeats the words of her father we must repent our sins. Grace begs for him to stop, but he won't and continues his prayers. So this is part two of Aiden proposing the idea that they've died to her. And despite like her begging him to stop, and I can see the last fight in her before her sanity finally breaks, she still doesn't like quite believe this. But what does Aiden do? He goes upstairs and he hangs himself, but only to prove that even if you hang yourself, you aren't dead in purgatory. And he raps with, We must confess our sins in order to go to heaven, Grace.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:08

Jesus, man. What a fuckhead. Yeah, like this, you say this out loud, like revisiting this scene. It's like first, something to note here though, about that obituary is like it's on a clean piece of printer paper. So that's kind of a that's kind of a tell, but I guess really you don't think maybe don't think too hard of it in the moment because it just does say like these three died, and like it's it says how they died or whatever, uh in like uh you know, gas or whatever. Um but the I thought when he hung himself, this is when I this is when I was like, oh, the kids are faking it for sure. This is when I kind of knew. Yeah, me too, me too. And um, I was like, this is fucking that is it that is psychotic behavior from a teenager. That is like there is no justification now for me that this is a this is a kid probably through the trauma of knowing his mom blew her brains out and having no support, has been going through the crucible of pain and grief, he has emerged something so much worse than he was, and is now like literally has the traits of a sociopath um in this behavior of demonstrating they're dead by fake hanging himself to break someone's psyche that is like diabolical to the extreme. Like, like 11 out of 10 diabolicalness.

SPEAKER_02 1:39:33

I think you mentioned something so like the whole purpose of this movie is about metamorphosis because of trauma. So you've got like you just hit the nail on the head. He has emerged a sociopath birthed through trauma. That is his like metamorphosis for Grace. It is like a regressive metamorphosis where she goes from being healthy back into the 12-year-old sect leader's daughter. Like the whole film is about these two forces being able to coexist at this lodge because they're snowed in. It it's it's kind of like wild, and honestly, talking about it out loud, like kind of genius. Like it's a very good like psychological review of trauma and like what that does to people. And I know I've said it a million times. Let's talk about this next scene.

SPEAKER_00 1:40:35

Speaking of metamorphosis, no, like I gotta stop like proselytizing, like, but like I think I get it because this next scene of her outside and what she finds um is the this is the nail in the coffin. This is her deliverance unto her previous self. Like she fully transforms and regresses back into cult Grace.

SPEAKER_02 1:41:02

So we see Grace has discovered her salvation, her life, her dog Grady, but he isn't alive, he's frozen to death. So Mia begins to sob. And this is from the interior perspective. So this is not anywhere Grace can see. And I believe this is what what I said earlier about how I think they stored the dog away because I believe she's actually sad, and this is where we start to see the children like think that maybe they've gone too far. And yeah, on first watch, this is the moment when I thought there's no fucking way anything or like spiritual or ghostly is happening. And this is the one act above all else that completely breaks Grace. So when we catch up with the kids a short while later, Aiden says he doesn't know what to do, and that they have to stop this. And so what we do learn in this moment is that Aiden and Mia have hidden the entire lodge's belongings in their storage closet, and that this was all an elaborate drawn-out prank. Spoiler alert, we've talked about this for two hours, but this is the point in which you 100% know as an audience member how diabolical the children have been.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:41

Yeah, and right here, we also, right before this, I think, or right around this time, we get a lingering shot of the harness in the attic and the speaker.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:51

Yes, the speaker of her father saying the things he said to the sect member. Diabolical, man. That's like a that's a cut above like a prank.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:05

That's like that's that's insane gaslighting. Yeah, you know what? I want to say something.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:12

You know the term gaslighting is thrown around these days. It's like this you're gaslighting me. It's like, uh no, this is gaslighting, honey. This, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:22

I will I've I've had this conversation at nausea with people. I'm like, I can't stand it with with the advent of therapy talk and and uh on TikTok and Instagram and stuff like that. Gaslighting, like if someone lies to you, that's not gaslighting, they just lied to you. Um if someone's a piece of shit and they like that's not gaslighting, they're just being a piece of shit.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:44

Like, or if someone told you the truth, like, I don't like you. That's not gaslighting, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:48

Stop gaslighting me. No, it's uh this is a since since the movie Gaslight, which is where the term comes from, uh, this is probably the best movie, one of the best movies out there. If you want to see what actual gaslighting is, this is like the extreme example of it, too. It's it's really, really good. This is a textbook, and it's a classic. By the way, for those who don't know, gaslighting is convincing someone else to question their own reality and perception of events. It is not lying to them just to lie. It's yeah, gaslighting might involve lying, but it's not just lying. It's it is a complete removal of what you perceive to be real and isolating you from your own perception of reality, which is like it's it's a very serious and like crazy thing to do.

SPEAKER_02 1:44:36

The other thing about this is like it shows that through repetition you get results. Like the person begins to believe what you're telling them.

SPEAKER_00 1:44:45

Yeah, it's like I could go to the gym and like I've gotten my results by repetition. Yeah. Sorry, cut that off. I fucking hate realized.

SPEAKER_01 1:44:56

I know. I think we're bringing the intellect today, but yeah, we are. We are this is I think it's that's okay. That's totally okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:05

It's uh this is a pretty heavy, serious movie, so it's like I just said I'm in the zone for the movie, and I'm I guess I can't really pull myself out of it.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:12

So oh, you're killing the movie for sure.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:14

Oh, thank you. Okay. So Aiden heads outside and he covers Grace with a blanket, letting her know none of it was real. But what does she reply? She says, We're all sinners on earth, and we can't be welcomed into the kingdom of heaven.

SPEAKER_01 1:45:33

Oh fuck.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:34

And the children realize at that very moment that she's gone. And so whatever they were trying to do worked ultimately.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:54

Uh as they put this blanket around her. Uh, I just thought that was like extra, like, like fuck you kind of thing. I was like, ugh.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:02

The other thing too is like, we can't like we have to call attention to the fact that like they're also suffering. So like they're obviously eating, I'm assuming, up in the storage room. They're like they're bathing probably in the same way. Like, they're also restricting themselves to inflict in this, to inflict pain on someone else, which is also really insane.

SPEAKER_00 1:46:32

Yeah, it's like this is like I said, it's it's this is not just like this prank, whatever this is, this is no longer like a teenager getting out of hand. This is sociopathic behavior. To to to commit yourself to a task to inflict hurt upon someone so dutifully that you yourself will suffer knowing your outcome is like your mission is being completed in hurting someone. That is diabolically evil. That's a good way to put it. Yeah, like you're willing to hurt yourself to hurt somebody else. Yeah, that's like that's fucked up. And also the state of our political landscape these days, anyways. Um, let's go. I know. I was gonna be like, this is just like the straight of Hormoose. Um well, yeah, there's there's a lot of examples these days, but uh we'll just do all this out.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:22

Um I wanted to I wanted to take a note on intentional cruelty here. So in the in a screen rant interview, when asked about playing a character who is intensely cruel to their potential new stepmother, Jaden Martell noted how much he enjoyed the script's subversion of expectations. Martell found it incredibly interesting to flip the script. Playing a child who uses grief and psychological warfare to become the antagonist to a well-meaning outsider. So this confirms Grace is a well-meaning outsider.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:59

Yeah, obviously, I think that's obvious. Like, I think I I think it was on I was on red, I think I was on Reddit about this movie just to see people's thoughts on like because Sharon and I discussed this at length, and I'm always curious what what some people think. And like some people like this one thread was just out of control of like people who like had such poor takes on the movie, and like some people even posited Grace might not have been a good person. I'm like, what? Like, it's just like I think sometimes like media literacy just just goes out the window sometimes, but dude, it's like the fucking people that believe this is what really okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:37

I'm gonna go off for a second. When a woman or man or person enters a new relationship with someone else, the person who is going through the divorce or has children and is making a series of decisions that has nothing to do with the person who is the outsider who is entering the situation, but they're often the ones that receive all of the repercussions to the changes to the existing relationships. And this is exactly what happened. Like, anyone who posits that Grace has anything but like positive intentions for both herself, the kids, and Richard and their family is insane. There is no evidence of that in this film at all. It it speaks to them more than it speaks to this film in my mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:49:31

Oh, obviously, yeah, absolutely. Uh well said.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:37

Okay. So Grace's religious trauma has fully infiltrated her at this point and is driving. So the children find her in front of the fire, kneeling on burning logs, inflicting pain upon herself, and she says, The harm I brought to this family, I repent. And I wanted to point out here, like again, this like sort of Frankenstein reference. So the children, despite causing this, are now locked inside a remote cabin in the woods with essentially an unbridled, unpredictable force. So they unleashed a monster and they are directly responsible for what happens. Like they architected their own fate.

SPEAKER_00 1:50:26

And funny enough, yeah, and and more about being architects of their own demise. We've also seen that they've tried to start the generator, but they've left it off for too long and it won't start. So we've we find out more like we we said earlier, the kids were willing to put themselves through pain and suffering to inflict it upon her. Um is that we learn that they could have had access to the generator, the generator the entire time for heat and everything. And food they left it off and the food. And we also learn that uh Mia was Mia was texting with her dad. Yeah. So, and like it's just extra sad that like she never relayed anything that was wrong to her father, really.

SPEAKER_02 1:51:12

Well, then how do you know she was texting with her dad?

SPEAKER_00 1:51:15

Because at one point after the dog scene, um, which also I have one more thing to say about that. I don't want to go too far back here, but Aiden tries to use her phone and she says, Yeah, my phone's dead too. I must have been texting dad too much or something. This is after we the reveal that the kids have have faked us all.

SPEAKER_01 1:51:33

Oh, okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:51:34

Yeah, which is kind of crazy. Like basically they can't generate started and they can't contact their father. And further, what you said, they're now in a prison. They are now stuck, trapped with an unstable woman who's gone, who's regressed into her cult-like mentality. And I think also for me, I know you said earlier, you said that you believed the um Mia was sobbing earlier and says, Oh, like I accidentally left the door open to indicate that's how Grady got out, the dog.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:08

I think I think they purposely let the dog out. So because that would further help sell the purgatory um, the house being them in purgatory and that they're dead.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:22

Oh, because if the dog yeah, I can see that.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:26

I think Aiden, whether it was under Aiden's direction or not, I think as part of this plan, they let the dog out and maybe hope for the best, and then like, you know, that willful ignorance, I would say. But um ultimately they are seeing the fruits of their labor that this dog froze to death, and it's like willful ignorance at this point.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:45

They have that's the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:52:47

They have completely done this on purpose. No, I know.

SPEAKER_00 1:52:50

I guess what I'm saying is demons when someone justifies something to themselves by saying, like, oh, they the dog probably made it to some shelter, like an under a tree or something. Like they know that's not the case, but we can make ourselves feel better. That's what I'm trying to say.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:05

I'm still team, they put the dog some like it's the only reason I say that is because I feel that there is I'm hope maybe this is just me and my own, like our you know, whatever, but I think that that would be a step too far for them. And when the frozen dog was found, it proved to be a step too far. So I don't think that she just let the dog out.

SPEAKER_00 1:53:32

And also too, yeah. To to to back you up there, uh I counterpoint to my own point. The only thing I would say about my theory about letting the dog out is an extreme cold, a dog that swallowed probably be barking and whining at the door, wanting to come in, not running out into the wilderness. So yeah, that's why I think I think you're right. I think you're right there too. As per years, okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:54

As for years. No, I'm kidding. Okay, all right. I want to talk about Richard. We're gonna talk about Richard. So, where the fuck is Richard? And I want to point something out here about the timeline. Grace had been fiddling with the date on this clock, and the last date that we as the audience saw was January 9th. I'm not sure that's the actual date, but that is the only date that we as the audience receive, and he was supposed to arrive on December 25th. So either the storm is so bad, and Mia has been communicating with him, or he is really stupid.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:39

I think so. I think the clock. I was under the impression that the kids were messing with the clock's date again as part of this selling the purgatory thing. Because she changes the date back and then she goes to check the clock a second time and it's back to January the 9th again.

SPEAKER_02 1:54:55

So what's the like I guess that could add to like the mystery of this movie, but like what what timeline?

SPEAKER_00 1:55:04

I don't buy for a second that I would so I would argue that like if the dad could not reach them by Christmas and no one was communicating with them, like hey, we're we're stuck, that they would have sent like a rescue crew to check on them or something. Like to two weeks, are you kidding me? There's no way okay, all right. So I don't I don't think for a second, I don't think there's been two weeks that have elapsed in this movie. I think especially if the dad had missed Christmas and had had no contact from Grace, it'd be one thing if Mia was like, yeah, everything's fun, but like at some point when your spouse or partner is like not communicating with you, you're gonna start freaking out. So kind of like this dad is like nah. I guess he doesn't give a lot of I give Richard a lot of guff, and he is ultimately like he sets up a lot of this for him, like a lot of the shenanigans, but um you know, this little ruffian behavior comedy, yeah. But I think the clock, I think the clock um uh is part of the gaslighting, in my opinion.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:11

Yeah, I agree, I agree. Okay, yeah, that that helps me because I was curious as to what the timeline was, and it made Richard in my mind like even more insane. But yeah, that makes sense. So Richard has learned the roads are now clear and he can head back to the lodge the next morning. Grace, now possessed by the being of performer life, tells the kids they don't have to be afraid and that there's nothing to be scared about. She says, and this is like basically like propping up Aiden's uh theory or propping up Aiden's idea, she says death is behind us already and begins to burn Mia's doll, telling them they have to free themselves from idols. So she is fully 100% all in on the purgatory thing, and they planted that idea in her head.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:09

Yeah, I love I love this like the poetic irony of what they've done to her in a way. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:19

And this is when I was like, if we were to play that game, who deserves to die? Yeah, yeah, the kids. And you know, like Maggie from Childplay is like a 10 out of 10. What? Like, leave it alone, dude. Maggie's not a 10 out of 10. Like, and I know like people are gonna be like, you shouldn't wish death upon anyone, but I'm like, Nah, I think a lot of people kids deserve to die, dude.

SPEAKER_00 1:57:42

A lot of people are would be, I think most people are gonna be with us here. These chicken shit kids need to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:47

Yeah, and like, like we said, like they're trapped in the house with this monster, and this is like this is the reality now. Like, there's no going back, there's no unprogramming her kids. So as Richard enters the lodge, he happens upon an empty home, and he calls out for Grace. What he discovers is Grady, dead and frozen in his dog bed, and he races up the stairs to find Grace. She points the gun to her head and says again, I'm already dead. He pleads with her like she isn't dead and asks her not to do this. She attempts to shoot herself in the head, but there is no bullet in the chamber. When she tries again, she points it at Richard, and this time, bingo. He gets shot in the head and falls dead. So these kids have planted the idea of purgatory in Grace's mind to the point where she doesn't think that shooting or killing anyone would actually kill them because they are already dead. Yeah, and now they have no father.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:00

Yep. They're not they're not working. Crazy. Fuck you, Aiden.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:05

Oh, yeah. So the children attempt a quick escape in Richard's truck, but are quickly brought back to the dinner table with Grace and Richard's corpse.

SPEAKER_00 1:59:18

Yeah, they the kids they they they do start the vehicle, but they back it up into a snowdrift, and that's their demise.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:25

And if you notice, this is very slasher because Grace has a gun in her hand and she just slowly slowly walks over to the side, and we that scene cuts pretty quickly to the dinner table.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:41

Very, very cool. Very cool because it's like you've created a Jason. It's like so I find that concept to be so fascinating that like we architect the situations in our lives for the most part. I mean, there's obviously things that happen to us and like things that we have to deal with and blah blah blah. But you know, for the most part, you're kind of determining like choose your own adventure. Yep. Anyway, so Grace began to him while the kids sit tearfully at the table. And I want to point out how fucked up this is as we get a back shot of Richard's head, which has been exploded open by the gun. And it's like a very cool, gory shot. But Grace doesn't seem to mind there's a dead person at the dinner table and most likely doesn't believe he's dead.

unknown 2:00:31

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:32

So in the final shot, talk about poetic, we cut to the children who now have duct tape on their mouth with the word sin written across it. Just like the sect members who succumb to the church suicide. The movie ends with a lingering shot of the gun resting on the table, strongly implying that Grace intends to murder the children and herself so they can all fully transition to the afterlife. So the suicide of the sect returns full circle, and Grace is returned to trauma.

SPEAKER_00 2:01:10

And what's like devastating here, too, and I not the word devastating, which is what I find extra creepy is like pick a new word, is uh when Grace sings that song, Mia actually uncomfortably joins her. I think that both kids do actually uncomfortably join her singing the hymn, and it's it's the same hymn from the funeral. Which is just yeah, which is creepy so Andrew. Oh, go ahead. No, yeah, that's it.

SPEAKER_02 2:01:42

Andrew, what's your kind of final score on this movie? Like, what do you think?

SPEAKER_00 2:01:48

Um, I give this movie an 8 out of 10. I think this this is I love a movie. I think for me, it's refreshing to see. I'm not refreshing. I just like seeing a movie that was like it, you know, it posits to the audience through a character, hey, are these characters dead? Nope, they're actually not. The veil is on is pulled, and actually it was a big prank. And then it pause, then it tells you, like, it, it just this movie is not ambiguous as to what happens in this movie, and I love that like we see we see a clear trajectory of the characters, especially Grace, um, manifested and she's set on this path by these kids and these these destructive ways they go about it. And I think it's just so good. And I love this, I love the ending. I love this ending. I love this ending of the movie. Oh, me too. It's devastating. I know, sorry, I got a new word, but it is devastating. And I think this is a awesome psychological horror movie that like it kind of sort of plays the idea that might go paranormal. It lingers on the shot of like I think it's supposed to be like a dark version of like a Virgin Mary. There's a cross in a room that she's uncomfortable with. So like it plays on religious horror in a way that I really like. And again, before I mentioned before in the uh the after the funeral, Mia says that mom's going to hell because oh, she's not going to heaven because she committed suicide. And it's clear, like, it's juxtapos uh it's I guess a juxtaposition with Grace's life in that she was deeply affected by religion as well, but now recoils from it only to be sucked back in by this horrible uh prank mission by Aiden and Subsqu and also Mia. And like I said before, reaping the fruits of their labor to the full effect is such poetic justice for these characters and so so sad for Grace that uh I I I love this movie. I loved it.

SPEAKER_02 2:03:46

Yeah, I loved it too. I'd give it an eight as well. I thought it was I thought it was really for all the reasons you just said and all the things that we talked about. I just think above all else, like watching it fresh and having it like fresh on my mind, it's just incredibly sad. And I think it's so depressing, like both for the children and for Grace. Yeah, I find both parties um had suffered like immeasurably, and I think their fate was sealed, and I think it was done really, really well. Not to mention that like the movie was shot really, really beautifully.

SPEAKER_00 2:04:26

Yeah, the cinematography, some of these shots, like I said, we we don't have time to cover everything, but like we get several of the um inside of the dollhouse diorama of the lodge. Like we even get a shot later on in the movie before Richard returns to them where he's looking inside the dollhouse and they're all posed dead. And it's just like there's some just really, really good scenes that we've left out that are just like because there's no dialogue, there's no real, it's just a scene that lingers on certain sp spots in this lodge or this atmosphere. And that's the thing that this atmosphere, it's from minute one of the lodge. I'll say one reason why I love this film, another reason why I love the film that we've talked about the themes and characters and stuff, but one thing we we haven't discussed at length too much is because you have to feel it is the sense of dread in this movie. Um like this movie from very early on in the lodge, the way the camera work sets up this dreadful feeling, especially at nighttime where it plays with like someone might be wandering in the house. Again, we had this we did skip a couple sequences just because um not pivotal plot moments here, but um, I love the movies, kind of plays with a bit of the paranormal, but ultimately ends up being so much more impactful because it's not, it's a it's a real horrific character story.

SPEAKER_02 2:05:50

It would be interesting to see this movie like from the paranormal perspective.

SPEAKER_00 2:05:54

Yeah, I think it I this movie could have done work, like it could, you know. I think you could have reworked, I think there's a lot of scenes in the movie. You could you could retool and rework into turning it into a religious horror paranormal film.

SPEAKER_02 2:06:07

I think what I liked about this too is like the psychology behind trauma. Like, I don't want to, I'm not a trauma expert by any means, but I just think that we're all as humans, like every single person has struggled or suffered through, you know, various levels of trauma, you know, divorce, um, things like that. And I think it's a really good study on how close, even though you know you do therapy and you move beyond your past, but you're so shaped by it and it's so close. And I think this movie just showed that, like, you know, when the ingredients are there, it's kind of right for disaster. And I thought it just played really, really well with that.

SPEAKER_00 2:06:56

Yeah, it's absolutely agree. I think this is just like this is just an awesome this this is the first movie, like I said, we've we had we've covered that's like it's not paranormal. It's not like this is very much just like a deep psychological horror film, but it's man, is it so effective? It's so good.

SPEAKER_02 2:07:16

All right, Andrew, that is the lodge. Join us again for our next feature film. Obsessed.