S1 Ep 12- Everday Equity: Everyday ways to make a change with Elaine Lin Herring

In this episode of Everyday Equity, Pooja Kothari speaks with Elaine Lin Herring, author of Unlearning Silence: How to Speak Your Mind, Unleash Talent and Live More Fully. Elaine shares how learned silence especially for immigrants and marginalized professionals, shapes how we show up at work and in life.

Together, they explore why speaking up isn’t just an individual responsibility, but also a leadership one, and how creating space for different voices helps unlock talent, dignity, and stronger teams.

Transcript

 Welcome to Everyday Equity, everyday Ways to make a change. The show that brings real conversations about fairness, compassion, and progress into our everyday lives. I'm Pooja Ari, and each week I sit down with guests from all kinds of industries and backgrounds to talk about what equity looks like, not just in their work, but in their daily choices and personal journeys.

Because building a more equitable world isn't just for academics, activists, or experts. It's for all of us. Every day in big ways and small, we can choose to be more aware, more kind, and more connected. And this is where we learn how.

 Hi everybody. Welcome back to Everyday Equity, everyday Ways to Make a change. My name is Pooja Kothari, founder of Boundless Awareness, and with me today is a guest that I have been looking so forward to speaking with Elaine Lin Herring. We met many months ago before the release of your book on learning silence.

I can't wait for you all to meet Elaine. A little bit about Elaine. Elaine Lynn Herring is a facilitator. Writer and speaker. She works with organizations and individuals to build skills and communication, collaboration and conflict management. Oh, I can't wait to talk to you. Yeah. Elena's worked on six continents and has facilitated executive education at Harvard, Dartmouth, Tufts, uc, Berkeley, and UCLA.

She is a former advanced training director for the Harvard Mediation Program. And a lecture on law at Harvard Law School. She has worked with coal miners at BHP Bulletin, microfinance organizers in East Africa, mental health professionals in China, and senior leadership at the US Department of Commerce.

Her clients include American Express, Chevron, Google, Nike, Novartis, PayPal, Pixar, and the Red Cross. She is the author. Of unlearning silence, how to speak your mind, unleash talent, and Live more fully. Just came out this year with Penguin Books. Elaine, welcome to Everyday Equity. We are so happy to have you.

Thank you. I'll turn it over to you to add anything to this really amazing bio. Thank you so much for having me and I. I am so excited to get to talk about everyday equity because the world can feel so overwhelming, particularly right now. There are so many things that deeply affect us, and so how are we supposed to show up every day?

Yeah, for the things that we care about. So this conversation could not come at a better time. And thanks for having me. Yes, thank you. Thank you so much. And you know, I wanna get started. Just right off the bat, what does everyday equity mean? How do you come into this inclusion, equity, belonging framework with your background?

And also what does it mean to you personally? I love that question because my own journey has definitely been a journey. As an immigrant to the states, my parents very much took the stance of we should assimilate. That's how you survive. Yeah, that's right. And you don't make a fuss and you put your head down and you do good work and it will be rewarded.

Yep. Same, right? And so many. We come from different backgrounds, different countries, different families, but that refrain and that approach seems so common, so universal, and it means fitting into a dominant paradigm that we don't, I didn't know what was baked into that dominant paradigm.

I just knew that to stay here. To not get in trouble or reduce friction meant to try to blend in more. And I don't actually identify as a DEI person because I think it discounts what people who actually specialize in that area, all the skillset and insight they bring. Do I care about equity?

Absolutely is everyday equity about showing up in ways that align with my values and figuring out how I can influence the world around me more into the world that I'd wanna live in. And that world that I wanna live in is where the ability to experience dignity, respect, belonging. Love, even at home is true for every human being, not just for a privileged few.

And so I feel very midstream as. Probably we all are on a journey of figuring out what does equity look like in my life? How does it intersect with my work? Supporting people to develop skills for communicating, collaborating, managing conflict, knowing that there are power dynamics and systemic dynamics that are the backdrop for each of us as we move through the world.

It's not like our parents came here and they were like, let's give up our dignity so we can just put our head down and work. I know, but that seemed to be quite in conflict with, you know, and you know, you and I grow up and we're like, wait a second, we can have it all. Not only that we deserve to have it.

How do you, how do we reconcile like those two different approaches, you know, of our parents, you know, coming here and being like. Listen, it's about survival. Yeah. We gotta just get our stuff together and keep the family Yeah. Functioning. Yeah. And especially the, you know, kids. Yeah. So I don't know if I have the answer, but I can share my approach, which is I'm so grateful that they focused on survival.

Yeah. And that means that we have a different baseline. Actually to honor the sacrifices that they made means that we continue to build upon the base. We are starting in a different place from my ability to speak English as fluently or without as much, you know, any of that. That actually the baseline survival is no longer the baseline, and that means that we push forward.

With expectations and dreams and advocacy for a different baseline because that survival is settling and that is my way of honoring what came before. I'm bookmarking this tiny spot. Okay. Yeah, that was just so well said. And something that I wanna carry back with me. You're right. Yeah. The whole point is to continue moving the baseline.

And hopefully our kids start at a even more advanced. Completely. And I know people always talk about we've gotta make it better for the next generation. Yeah. Or preserve the earth for the next generation. But when it comes to the workplace, I'm like, yes, I want it better for the next generation and I want it better for us now.

Yes. And

why? Why wouldn't we? Particularly because it's not a touchy feely, let's make the workplace or our communities feel better for people so that there's more oxytocin flowing. That's a side effect of it. But if each of us is more whole. As human beings, how much more can we show up for each other that not just the loudest ideas, but the best ideas.

The problems in this world are incredibly gnarly. Why wouldn't we want multiple perspectives and abilities to try to get to sustainable solutions? We're doing ourselves a disservice by squashing that talent and that perspective by. Keeping some folks at Survival baseline. Yeah, bookmarking that.

We really are, and you know, my wife and I, we always say like the United States and most of the world has wasted. You know, the resource of human beings by creating this, you know, patriarchal, white supremacist society. We've wasted so much potential, totally not just wasted potential, but also done incredible damage.

Because when we do not recognize potential and talent as what it is, potential talent, gifts, skills, abilities, but instead strip those away or force people to fall into and fit into the boxes that we've pre-ordained are acceptable for them. I know and I imagine anyone listening knows how.

Deeply painful and how long the tail of damage is when you internalize messages that you are not good enough that whether or not your manager intended to. The message you received was, oh, I guess my thoughts don't matter. I just better shut my mouth. Yeah. And we internalize that as I'm the problem, I'm not good enough.

And we are told, you need to deal with your imposter syndrome or you need to have more confidence. It's some version of go fix yourself. Yeah. And how deeply entrenched that becomes in how we move through the world and how incredibly damaging so we're not just missing out on potential, we've dug a deeper hole.

You know, there's that phrase that healed people can heal people or hurt people. Hurt people. And how many of us are walking around as hurt people without the opportunity to heal because the hurt keeps coming.

Yeah, absolutely. You know, we're moving into, the heart and crux of your book, I wanna talk a little bit more what not only spurred you to write this, but also if you could give us kind of like a peek into some of the approaches you have Yeah. In your book and. Ooh, they're for, this book came about because I, like many people, received the advice you need to speak up, right? You need to speak up in order to be heard, in order to be promoted, in order to show that you're a value add. Yeah, that's a deep breath. You need to lean in. You need to lean in, and if it's not working for you, it's because you're not doing it right?

Yeah. It's you. You are not raising your hand enough. Yet so many of us know from lived experience, no, I did try, I did raise my hand. I did lean in. I can't contort myself anymore to lean in further, and when I spoke up, apparently it wasn't the right time, the right place, the right tone, the right, you know, I was too emotional, too loud, too direct.

I can't be right. And I'll be honest, being in leadership development for more than a decade, I parroted that advice that was given me because it came from experts. And yet we need to challenge also who are the people we hold as experts. Yep. Who is that advice? For what perspective does it come from?

What perspective is missing? And. I thought, I think we're getting it wrong because the reason I don't speak up is not because I don't have a voice or don't believe that I have something to add, although that doubt was certainly part of it. It is because I have learned. Benefited and been rewarded for staying silent.

That immigration story of survival, keep your head down, you, it makes you a great entry level, hire it great, makes you a great worker and someone else can take credit for your work and look really good and be promoted and rewarded. And you are easy to work with and you don't rock the boat, but then you don't have executive presence, you're not leadership material, all of these things.

And is it just my learned silence? Because the way that even the well-intentioned leaders around me continue to interact with me, silences me, right? You can speak up, but only in this way, only in this time preordained when it has our stamp of approval on it. Which gets us to the question of who is this book for?

And it's something we really wrestled with. This book is actually for two audiences. My primary hope is that people who have been silenced right, told they're not good enough. They have to make themselves small. They, it was really costly for them to speak up. You actually did it 'cause someone told you to and then they got defensive and they stopped inviting you to the meetings.

All of that. Yep. That we would feel seen, known, and. And realize, oh, it's not me. There's this thing called silence. It's playing a role in all of our interactions and we need to unwind it. The second. Reader I'm trying to reach is well-intentioned leaders because people can try as much to speak their mind, show up and bring their potential and talent.

But if leaders are not creating the conditions to receive that, and as so many leaders are. Unintentionally sending the message, I don't care what you have to say, or make it so costly for people to show up. We as well-intentioned leaders and I use, we intentionally are silencing the very people we claim to support and aim to support.

So to really unleash talent and live more fully or lead well, we need to wrestle with this ways that we might silence ourselves, that we've learned it along the way, developed these unconscious habits that potentially served us at one point in time. And to ask the question, does it serve who I am today and who I want to become?

The things that matter to me now. What's that new baseline? And in what ways do I unintentionally silence the people around me? And can I own that impact? Because people can shout as loud as possible, but if we're not as leaders ready and willing to hear it, it doesn't. It's a brick wall. More shouting is not going to break that brick wall.

And then to also acknowledge that silence is baked into the systems that we're all a part of that privilege. Certain populations and dominant norms, right? The way that things have always been and just how they work often centers whiteness as Dr. Janice Assam would tell us. Decentering Whiteness.

But we so often just assume that it is normal because that's the way that it has been. So I want us to have a more intellectually honest analysis and discussion about what's going on to prevent the damage that we talked about earlier in terms of damaging messaging. And also if we can ask the right question, it gives us a better chance at actually solving for it.

And I'll. Leave the verbal asterisk there because there's not a whole lot of incentive for people for whom the systems are currently working to be willing to change. So I'm aiming at the well-intentioned leader because I, as I know you have met so many leaders who genuinely want to support the people that they're leading.

And are confused as to why people don't come to them when they say, my door's always open and confused as to why. Why didn't I hear about this earlier? You could have just told me, oh yeah, I want to build a speak up culture. Yeah, okay. There's so much embedded in that 'cause it's not just as easy as speak up.

So we've gotta solve for silence. Yes. I love that. You know, people come into leadership positions. We all do without the the psychological understanding of incentivizing listening. Yeah. Looking out for other nonverbal and verbal cues that like, you know, and so it, of course, if you just said oh yeah, my door's always open.

It's no one's gonna, why would anyone come? No one's coming to that. You have a door, and there's a great HBR article about this, right? I think it's Megan Wrights who wrote it, and team, you have a door, it's on your turf, you control the terms. So just think about the setup in and of its. Self and there's the also the shift of as a leader, I don't think I've changed.

It may not actually be about me, but the fact that I inhabit the VP or EVP role, people have a perception of it. And so there's the disconnect between how I see myself. I'm just, I'm a fallible human being. I bumble around. I don't really know what I'm doing, but people assume things about E VPs and therefore there's an inherent power dynamic that we need to actively work through versus, I'm not intimidating and just staying in the.

I don't understand why they perceive me in that way. Yeah. You know, I feel like there's no greater way. This really, it like smacks you in the face than parenting. You know, you look at a young kid over the age of toddler, but still a young kid and you're like. How's your day?

Good. What'd you do? Nothing. And then all of a sudden, at nighttime, it's like a meme, right? They're like verbal diarrhea, like just can't stop talking about their day. Yeah. So it's it can't be like, oh, I asked and they said nothing. And all of that is learned habit and expectation.

I recently had the conversation with my mom where she was like, we didn't know what was going on. We asked you, how's it going, or how was school? And you said, okay. And so we thought you're okay. Yeah. And that, my point is we all have a way of operating that often we've inherited or we've observed.

That continual learning and growth means to say, how well is that working for the purposes? If this is about equity, if this is about being belonging if these are my values, how well is it working and what might I be able to learn? And the bedtime,

I was gonna say babbling, but sharing is such a great example because it is a, everybody gets their. On their own time. Yes. And how do we design a way of communicating that works for all parties involved rather than expecting everyone to fit into a pre-ordained norm or pattern. You've gotta have that conversation at pickup or else we're done. Exactly. Yeah. And whose schedule does that benefit? You know, parents at bedtime are like, when is this over? I'm having a visceral reaction are like, I'm just getting started. Totally. You know, so if it's like on my terms, you answer me how you are, when it's my, you know, it's and it's not to say that we, this is.

My mother hat coming on is not to say that we at 10 o'clock are still indulging that conversation, but what is the negotiation? So we are co-creating, taking into account the different wiring, the different strengths, the processing styles that we as human beings are all different. Surprise, and also that moment of expressing clear intent, right?

Hey bud, I wanna hear about your day. And I'm worried that we're not gonna recharge your battery enough. I'm like replaying last night's conversation. As I say this, totally recharge your battery if we don't get sleep tonight. So I would love to hear, and let's find a different time so that you can recharge your battery.

Yeah, that conversation, so we're not just shutting down and incentivizing silence because it's not a convenient or appropriate time. And appropriate based on whose norms. Exactly. Exactly. You know, we had this question and I really, I know it's a little little bit of a right turn, but, I wanted to get your opinion on this. Yeah. You noticed my deep breath. Yeah.

What is success? Yeah. As a woman of color, as women of color. I feel like you know, someone just recently said to me like, Puja, you, what's your benchmark? You keep moving your benchmark so that you're never gonna consider your consider whatever you've accomplished success. If you keep moving the goalpost and so what does success mean to us? And then of course, you move the goalpost and you're like, oh, I didn't reach my goal, that I just keep moving and you lack self-compassion. So yeah. What's your approach and take on this? My approach, I have to give credit to Deepa poor Shaman, the author of the first, the few, and the only in the context of the conversation was.

In advance of my lunching on learning silence the book and her saying, you have to define success for yourself because if you don't, other people will define it for you. Yes. And I thought that was so wise because when it comes to a book, you know, she said there are five or eight different ways you could define success based on your values and your goals.

So for me, I had a placeholder definition of success. 'cause I wasn't. Ready to commit yet. And I actually love the idea of a placeholder hypothesis to test something out, see how it feels, how it works, rather than feeling feeding the perfectionist in us to say, I've gotta get it right before I can try something.

My placeholder definition of success for the book was moving through, launch with or actually baseline to stay sane. And then to move through launch with kindness and grace for myself and the people I encounter. And it, that was intentional because those were things I could control. I could tie myself up in knots as to whether I hit a bestseller list or move a million copies of books.

And all of that. I could hustle harder, but so I set the baseline where I did of how do I wanna move through this world? What are the things that matter to me? And I think everyone's definition of success is going to be different. But the agency that comes with determining your own definition of success is key, both from an internal locus of control, external locus of control piece.

And to also not underestimate how much work goes into just living every day. I don't want us to go back to a baseline of survival. And when there's a genocide going on, when people are starving, when progress that has been there's been so much hard work and effort to fight for progress. Seems like it's being rolled back.

Plus the day to day the kids aren't going to sleep. And have I packed the lunches and who's paying the bill? All of it is. So overwhelming and can cause us to disengage versus I remember the newborn days success was, is everyone alive? Is everyone fed and is everyone's butt wiped? And most days we could say yes, and that was success.

And so to really give ourselves credit for the world is not always kind. We have an opportunity to be kind. To one another to create the world that we want. But I found taking back my narrative and taking back my own definition of success rather than how many millions of dollars of revenue am I bringing in, or what accolade have I gotten or not gotten, or does my life look like someone else's life?

Those all, you know, my life is not gonna look like it because I am not that. Person, nor do I aspire to be. I could spend my life trying to be a really good imitation of someone else, or I could spend my life trying to be a really amazing version of myself. How am I wired? What are my gifts? What are my skills?

How can I show up? Who are the people I care most about? How do I wanna be sure that I'm showing up in those aspects of my life? There is no one definition of success or what we should be chasing or working toward day to day, my question is what? What is your definition? The question to the listener is, what's your definition of success?

So that if we each have one life to live, you're living a life that you can be proud of. Yes. Oh. Oh my gosh, so many great quotes here. Is that going on the timestamp? It did. It did. It did. You have so much to offer it. Could you offer our audience a piece of advice on building equity into their everyday lives?

You know, you and I might think about it a lot, but most people don't and and are just trying to get through the success. Yeah. Have a successful day and. What's one thing that people can start incorporating? I actually would start with a mindset, and this is to be a little nerdy double loop learning, right?

Because mindsets drive behaviors which drive outcomes. So often if people don't like the outcomes, they go to, what behavior do I have to change? But if actually you, the mindset is what drives the behavior and the mindset I would start with is. My actions matter. My life matters. And part of why I start there is because in this world where there's so much going on and issues that feel maybe above our pay grade or out of our reach of influence, we can really start to question whether how we show up matters.

Whether we matter is a close piece to that. And so when we think about equity, it is each of our actions, our contributions can either disrupt or perpetuate an existing norm, right? Are you going to say something? Are you not gonna say something? Are you gonna let that comment go? Are you going to. Inquire as to why things seem different for these two people, even though they have the same job title.

And it boils down to can I, in the way that I show up day to day actually make a difference? And my answer. If we had another half hour, we'd dive deeper into, but the answer is yes. How we show up with dignity and respect for each person that we encounter, whether that is the person you're walking down the street.

Whether that is the person at kid drop off. The crossing guard. It actually matters in the world and the experience of the world that we are co-creating and nothing is too small to influence the way that someone else's else experiences life today. Oh listen, this episode is full of like the best quotes I've ever heard.

Can I share just some context around that? Yes. That which is, because that was like so deep. Yes. Oh I'm so honored because un writing, unlearning silence and talking about it really is my own journey of unlearning silence. You know, maybe in a different context we go deeper into that, but I, three years ago, five years ago, did not think I had a voice.

And so that you are like jotting down timestamps, saying that there are gems is wow. You know, it is. We cannot discover our own voices without action. Yeah. And so conversations like this where it's oh, that thought that was in my head that in a different context someone might have told me was crazy or off.

Off target apparently has value. Yeah, tremendous value. Tremendous. I love that. It's like. Seeing the potential just turn into kinetic energy right in front of our eyes. It's really amazing. Elaine, you're amazing. And it takes action though. Yeah, right? It can't just be in silence. And it is experimentation.

It is community. None of us live life alone or can really grow alone. And so how do we hold space for each other to continue to grow? Thank you for holding space today. Oh, and every day as I know you too. Elaine's book is unlearning Silence. How to Speak Your Mind, unleash Talent, live More Fully. This is like a must read for the decision makers.

Senior Leaders C-Suite website is elaine lin herring.com, ig and LinkedIn at Elaine Lynn Herring. Elaine e This has been like. Anyway, you all will see below this episode, all of these amazing quotes, because there's too many, and I, yeah. Thank you, Elaine. Thank you so much. It's a joy and all of you, we will see you in two weeks.

Elaine, you're the best. I want you to stay on just for a few more minutes. I'll see you all next time. 

 Thanks for joining us on Everyday Equity, everyday Ways to make a change. If today's conversation inspired you, keep the momentum going. Connect with us on LinkedIn at boundless awareness. Subscribe to our YouTube at boundless Awareness and explore more free resources to support your anti-oppression journey @boundlessawareness.com.

Remember, progress isn't about perfection. It's about showing up every day with curiosity, compassion. And the courage to do a little better. I'm Pooja Kothari, and I can't wait to keep learning and growing with you right here on everyday equity.