Everyday Equity: Equity Across Life and Death Conversations with Jaya Saxena

What does equity look like from your first breath to your last?

In this episode, Pooja Kothari speaks with Jaya Saxena—lawyer, organizational strategist, and aspiring death doula about how equity shapes our experiences throughout life, including at the end of it.

Together, they explore the difference between equality and equity, the barriers many communities face in accessing end-of-life care, the role of death doulas and why conversations about death are ultimately conversations about how we live.

They also discuss:

• What a death doula does
• Equity in hospice and end-of-life care
• Green burials and sustainable end-of-life choices
• Simple ways to practice equity in everyday life

This episode offers a thoughtful perspective on care, community and the importance of making equity part of every stage of life.

Connect with Jaya Saxena
Instagram: @being.jaya
LinkedIn: Jaya Saxena

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Hey everybody, welcome back to Everyday Encore Ways to Make a Change. I'm your host, Pooja Kotari, and with me today is the guest whom we have been in touch for years, and I'm just so happy that you are here with me today. Jay and Sixena, it's so great to have you here. Uh, welcome. Thank you, Pooja. It is wonderful to be here. Um, Jenna is a lawyer and organizational strategist with nearly 20 years of experience evaluating legacy structures. She focuses on building cultures where belonging and equity are the standard, not an add-on. She is an aspiring death doula and community leader in Washington, D.C., dedicated to expanding social equity through more compassionate, human-centered approaches to the end of life journey. Tara, amazing. You're incredible. Uh, is there anything you'd like to add to the short introduction of so much you've accomplished in your life?

SPEAKER_00 0:57

Well, I don't know if it's so much adding. I just want to say thank you again for um inviting me and for creating this space for the conversations you have with so many friends and colleagues across the world and the work that you do. It's so important, perhaps more important now than ever before. So appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:19

So our first question is why equity? How did it become an important part of your life, of your career, of your personal life journey?

SPEAKER_00 1:32

So when I think about equity, I think about two main things. One is ensuring that each and every individual has what they need to be successful and to thrive and to live their full and best lives. I also think about the need to remove system barriers to that prevent folks from having equal access to opportunities, to have a level playing field. So to me, it's both about making sure people have what they need to succeed and thrive, and simultaneously dismantling barriers. Um, and so for me, it has shown up as a really deep commitment to ensuring that individuals have are seen, are heard, are valued through the entirety of their human experience. Uh, in my professional life, as you had said, that has meant working to dismantle structures that have been in place for years. So uh, so that we create organizations where belonging and inclusion are centered. And in my community work, as you noted, it means the advocating for social equity in a couple different ways. So one is through access to arts education. I serve on the board of a nonprofit arts um education here in Washington, D.C. Access to legal justice and to the legal system. That's another board that I'm involved with that ties back to my career as a lawyer. And then most recently, it's really been around access to death, doula, and end-of-life care and services. And like you said, the idea to me is that equity should really exist from the moment we are born to through through our end-of-life transition. Um, it's not, none of these things should be reserved for people within certain zip codes based on where they live or how much money they have. These are, especially when it comes to death work, which I'm sure we'll talk about, it really is a fundamental right to have um equity literally from one's first breath to one's last breath.

SPEAKER_01 3:52

Yeah, well how you say that. Final and hence for our audience members who may not be acquainted with death to low earth. Can you talk to us about what that is?

SPEAKER_00 4:03

Sure. So I can't take credit for this um description. I just recently had the great privilege of interviewing an author by the name of Darnell Lamont Walker. His book is Never Can Say Goodbye. Shout out to Darnell. This was a week ago, and I love the way he describes it in his book. Um, he says, simply put, a death doula is someone who accompanies a person through the dying process. We hold space for them, listen to their stories, and help them make choices that honor the way they want to leave their life. It's about realizing that in the end, what people want most is to be seen, heard, and loved. And so death doula work is really about being present at its core. It's about how do we show up? How are we present in as someone is making that transition at the end of their lives? And some people say end of life doula, some people say death doulas. Um, I think we've started to hear more and more about it. And I would like to think that's because the entire topic around death and dying is becoming less taboo or stigmatized in our society. Um, so really it's about how can we be present with people uh towards the end of their life.

SPEAKER_01 5:26

And we're thinking about uh an end-of-life doula or a death doula. What are some of the things for maybe advocacy um that a doula would do?

SPEAKER_00 5:38

Sure. So I, you know, most of us who do this work are non-medicalized professionals. Obviously, there's an entire healthcare system, right, that is there to take care of folks. But most of death doulas that is changing, but many of us are not healthcare professionals by training. So there's a whole range of services when we think. So as I said, part of it is just about how we show up, being that calm, steady presence in someone's uh life at that very um what can be a beautiful time. There's also more in the practical sense, in terms of preparing documentation, um, advanced directives, living will. Some of us are lawyers, some of us are not, but we can all serve a role in helping to make sure someone's affairs are in order if that's something that they would want. That's a much more practical aspect. There's also an element of being there for caregivers. So I have pay a patient right now whose mother or whose daughter can't be there all the time. And so when she, you know, care, we we often don't think enough about caregivers as well. So Adula is there to also provide support to caregivers if that's of interest. Um, so there's definitely a human presence being part of it. And then there's also the practical side of it. There's also the piece which you alluded to, which is ensuring that the person's wishes are heard, seen, respected. And I think that's a big part of it as well. Making sure that whatever that individual wants in terms of their end-of-life care is respected and known and communicated.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Yeah, I'm telling uh teary because I'm thinking of um one of my aunties who passed uh last Wednesday. Incredible, beautiful woman, and uh and um so this is just springing out so well I'm so sorry for the loss. Yeah. Just incredible, she touched so many uh people and wasn't added with the rest of the store cast. Oh no, that's not this when he's thinking about it and not how well we can, you know, think of her as we have this conversation.

SPEAKER_00 8:01

It is amazing to me how um when we open the door to this conversation, how much of an appetite and a yearning there is for people to be in that space. I mean, at this book event, just as an example, it was a beautiful Monday night in DC. Folks could have been anywhere. And it was a a hacked room of people just really yearning to be in community with other people and think about their own experience with grief and loss and death and dying and all of that. So I do think when we open up the door to the conversation, people really share, show up and want to want to engage.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, because you know there's there's so much mysteriousness uh around death just as an act of life, and but also as this esoteric concept that you don't only digest, or you digest maybe in parts, and it's yeah.

SPEAKER_00 8:58

For sure. I mean, I'm learning all the time. I just I took my dad last weekend to um Reflection Park, which is the only multi-faith natural burial ground in Montgomery County, Maryland. Um, there's three in the state of Maryland, and I really had no idea what natural burials or green burials are. Um, it's you know a very eco-friendly way of um honoring someone at their death. I mean, we think of bear, we think of funerals, we think of burials, we think of cremation, we think of sort of the those things. But actually, back in the in the olden days, natural barriers were a much more commonly way people were um honored at the end. And so it is something that I myself am constantly learning about, uh, which is really interesting. Can you educate us about that? I had no idea. So natural burials are eco-friendly. Um essentially, someone's body is um put in a um eco-friendly casket. So everything is biodegradable. That's one option and buried in the ground. Um, another is putting the body in a cloth shroud that is also biodegradable. So it's a type of material that is biodegradable. And you bury those individuals that way. Um, so it there's there are benefits to it. Um it might, it's probably not for everyone, but there are benefits to the environment. In particular, when we think about how the process is done, it's a very natural, organic, environmentally sustainable and friendly way of um burying someone. And so there, yeah, I think there are growing, this is again, I think more and more people are learning about these pieces, but um again, there's just three of them in the state of Maryland. And so I just didn't realize the environmental impacts of other forms of burial, whether that's cremation or burying somebody in the more traditional sense in a wooden or some other type of casket.

SPEAKER_01 11:12

So totally. Well, now I know that too. And so does our audience.

SPEAKER_00 11:17

So and then last night I saw my sister and she sent me a link to composting. And I was like, wait, what? So I mean, I am always out like you can compost somebody, like what's the difference? So the whole world out there yet to be discovered.

SPEAKER_01 11:34

For sure. Um, I want to ask you a question about why equity is important in death. But before we get to that question, I think we should just remind our audience what equity actually means and the difference between equity and equality. I bought this word around equity, and it's like, let's just look at listen.

SPEAKER_00 11:58

Yeah. I mean, I think many people use the words equality and equity interchangeably. In fact, I think in the past couple years, we've there's been this undue focus on terminology. You know, whether it's D-E-N I, D-E-N-I-B, D-E-I-J, J-E-D, D I. I mean, it I B E A. I mean, we are really getting caught up in the words and the terminology. And while I think definitions are important, so we should define the difference between between equality and equity. I also don't want us to get caught up in the language so much that we lose sight of what it is we're actually trying to do here. So equality is essentially uh making sure everyone has the same thing. Um, whereas equity is about making sure people have what they need to be successful, but also dismantling the barriers. So the people have probably seen images that show the baseball field and people on different levels of stool so they can see, you know, not everyone should necessarily get the same thing because that might not need that might not be what they need to be successful and thrive. Yet everyone should have access to a level playing field. There shouldn't be barriers in place that precludes somebody from having that access to opportunity. Um, and so I think those are the differences between the two words. Yeah. I mean, you may have a, I don't know if you have, you know, from your vantage point, Pooja, and the work you do, how else you what might what else you might add to that?

SPEAKER_01 13:26

No, perfect. It's yeah, that uh different or variety of ways that people can succeed in giving the root the giving them what they need.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:37

Um okay. So why is equity important in end of life care or death?

SPEAKER_00 13:45

Oh my goodness. Um, so there's so many directions to answer this question. No, no, no, it's an important question. I mean, I I was doing some research around this, and unfortunately, I haven't been able to find research specifically around death doulas in particular. But there was a report, and we talked about this at the event, at the book event I was referencing. There was a report, and I'll bring this local to meet, which is DC, Washington, D.C. There was a report in DC from several years ago that said there was a 21-year gap in life expectancy depending on what neighborhood you live in. So depending on what late neighborhood, what your zip code is in Washington, D.C., there's a 21-year gap in life expectancy, which to me is absolutely unacceptable. And so when we think about systemic barriers in Washington, D.C., there are black and brown residents and under-resourced wards, and they are much less likely to have access to things like home hospice. Um, they're more likely to experience their final days in an institutional setting, hospital setting. And so when I think about equity and end-of-life care, I think about the reality that everyone should have access to emotional support, to community care, to death duolas, all of which are not accessible right now unless you pay out of pocket. So from an advocacy standpoint, this could be dreaming, but it would be amazing to see insurers, health insurance companies start including or covering um death dual or end-of-life services. Right now it's entirely out of pocket. So there's just a fundamental difference in how someone's end-of-life experience might be based on their racial, ethnic, or any other marginalized factors. Um, and I ultimately think it's really important that we just like in the workplace or in other settings where we're trying to dismantle systemic barriers, we should be able to do that for people who are looking for um certain types of care at the end of their lives. I mean, I really do believe that every individual should have the ability to die and end their life with dignity in a way they wish. And that's just not happening right now because of all the barriers that are in place.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah. I mean, the more you think about it, uh, we are so focused on non-disabled, most productive, most profitable groups in our society, and then we focus on getting everything from them, and we're we really devalue the I mean when you started from the top when you started, you know, equity is from birth to death, and we really devalue and friends, children. Uh we see them as if you know if you're not a productive part of our capitalist society, like, okay, you know, life care is just you know, and if you're uh disabled, uh you know, as we know, how you get treated in this society.

SPEAKER_00 17:14

And then of course, and life care. Yeah. So it's the entire human cycle of life, right? I mean, it's at every step along the way. Um, and I even think about, you know, what happens when you don't have uh when you don't speak the language. You know, I've seen firsthand friends and family members, their experiences with the healthcare system, and I come from a family of healthcare professionals, is vastly different depending on if you have some, if you're able to advocate for yourself or you have somebody who's advocating for you. So I think of all the people who aren't able to speak the language, who might be alone navigating the healthcare system alone, um, all of those issues just make the experience vastly different, depending on on those factors. But yes, like you said, I mean, beginning from birth, all throughout, we see it in the education system. I mean, we see it in the in mass incarceration. I mean, every step along the way, there are barriers in place that make it harder for certain individuals, marginalized, black and brown, LGBTQ, people with disabilities, um, make their experience much different than than if you um that if you don't and if you don't face those barriers.

SPEAKER_01 18:31

Yeah. And there's so much um fear surrounded uh surrounding it. You know, getting I'm just thinking of, you know, when I for example, when I gave birth, I had a dual who kind of explained everything. But there was like time. You know, like clinging You know, even when I started my contractions, there's still for me, there was still time to be like, okay, so this is the next step. And like that's a massive amount of pain, but like someone's explaining to me what to expect next and what I the next step should be. And then wondering uh death doula's um mandate is what uh you know, you have your patient there and and how it walks them through about what to expect next.

SPEAKER_00 19:20

Yeah, well, that's so interesting. That's interesting you mentioned that. First of all, some insurers, I don't know if this was the case with you or not, but there are insurance birth insurers that are who are starting to cover birth doulas, which I think is amazing. And hopefully we'll see that same transition or that'll be adapted to death doulas as well. But it's interesting you say that because I do have a patient now and her daughter, the same one I'm talking about, and her daughter, um, it's it's just understanding what the experience of death is like, de, like you said, demystifying it and taking away some of the fear around it. I think we all have this image of our minds of what death is like, and it can actually be a very peaceful, beautiful, calm experience, but that's not what we normally see or hear. So in this instance, the other night, she was telling me she heard her mom what she thought was a death rattle. And a death rattle is a certain sound that someone may make oftentimes as death is approaching. They're not in pain, it's not uncomfortable, but it is a sound that can be concerning if you're not familiar with it. And so we talked about that. It turns out her mother is still here, not, you know, but she is on hospice. So, you know, her death is coming. Um, but we talked about what does a death rattle look like? What does it sound like? What are some signs? Is it okay? Like if if she's doing X, Y, or Z, does that mean it couldn't be imminent? Of course, everyone's death is different. And it might it's not, you know, cookie cutter or buy the book, but these are things to look out for. And it it does demystify it and it does bring a sense of calm that, okay, now I know what this is, and I know she's not in pain. And I think there's so that is absolutely uh it's it's similar to what you're saying in terms of helping an individual prepare for what's to come.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Yeah. I know we really don't think about all of these minutiae of what people are experiencing, and um you know, Dr. Google I think we have to take care of Right.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yes. No, Dr. Google can can definitely add to angst and anxiety, I think.

SPEAKER_01 21:41

Yeah. Um Is there something about uh and end of life doula, outright death doula that you want our audience to better understand or be more curious about? Uh, or a question that they could ask. Um, like We've got a death jeweler before. Is it the person who's passing? Is it only for the family members? What did a family member want somebody for them? Uh, but but a person who's actually going through it doesn't want that. What are some things that are special?

SPEAKER_00 22:20

Um That's a great question. Um, and I would say there are first and foremost, there are a lot of different resources available for people who are wanting to learn more about Death Doula. There are national associations like I know the, which now I'm going to miss the spelling out, but it is I-N-E-L-D-A. And there are others where there are a wealth of resources just about Death Doula, end-of-life care, what the options are, what the services are, what's available. Um I would say that it really depends. I hate this answer, and I am a lawyer, so I'm going to give it a very standard lawyer answer. I think it really depends on what an individual or their family member is looking for. Um, I think first and for it's part of it is just educating yourself that there is this survey service available. It's become, it's gotten a lot more attention in mainstream media lately. The show The Pit had an episode with a death doula who came, um, who was there, and people were talking about that. Nicole Kidman has talked about her um training to be a death doula after her mother passed. So for some reason, it's it's I don't think it's, I think people are maybe awakening to this idea. I don't think it's a trend. I hope it's not a trend. I think it's more people are awakening to this reality that the one thing we all have in common is that we will all die in a world that is so polarized and that is so divided right now. It is the one universal thing that brings us all together, irrespective of what we look like, where we're from, what our zip code is, what our income is, all of that. Um, so I think part of it is just learning that this is a resource that is out there for people who are um, they, you know, it's not even necessarily if you are very, very ill. People can get death doulas to start helping with the planning. I mean, for myself, I was I when I did my training, I do love myself in terms of what are the documents I need to have, what do they have, do I have them in place? The will, the directives, the DNRs, like, oh, what it, whatever, even just what are my wishes? I mean, what was it that I really want? After I saw this natural burial site, I was telling my sister, I'm like, I'm not even sure what I want. Like I thought I wanted, but I'm not even sure if I know. So I think part of it is even if you're not, you know, at it, it the person could simply be there to help you get things in order. Um, even if you're not, you know, hopefully you don't have some some incurable or or horrible health situation. And then, of course, yes, for an a family member who might be on hospice or palliative care, um, or individual rather, and then caregivers. And there are sensitive issues and dynamics that will often come up, especially when family is involved. Um, maybe that that could even look like a difference of opinion. You know, the individual may want certain things, the family members might disagree. That can be a tense, difficult situation. I think it's really important for the doula to know in that point, sort of what is their role and making sure that there's transparent communication. But those can definitely be harder situations to navigate. At a starting point, though, I think just knowing that this support is there. And again, going back to the accessibility piece, you know, hopefully there are ways in which more and more people will have access to this if this is something that they want or need.

SPEAKER_01 25:59

The website uh that you mentioned is INLDA, the International End of Life Doom Association. We'll put it in our show notes as I-n-el-da-da org. And um, just being on it just now, it's there's so much information here that's very accessible.

SPEAKER_00 26:16

Yeah, there's a lot of services. There's a lot I went through a program called Going with Grace by Alua Arthur. She is the uh the the founder of that organization. There are folks like Darnell Lamont Walker, who wrote his book recently. There are communities, even in Washington, D.C. There's a group called the DC Death Collective. So, I mean, there's a an abundance of information support community that's out there. Part of it is just knowing that it exists and how to find it.

SPEAKER_01 26:48

Okay, we'll link to uh Donnell Lamont Walker's book and also the website goingwithgrace.com. Um, lots of information. There's so much out there.

SPEAKER_00 27:00

There's a lot of research. It's one of those things that I, for me, even I didn't realize uh that this was an entire space, right? Then death work is an entire space. And I actually think that this is one thing I would also add when you when you asked me that question that I hadn't said, and Darnell talks about this a lot. Um for me, it was not just about death and dying. And this is what I really tell people when they say, doesn't it make you sad? And you know, all the bings. To me, it's given me a laser focus on how to live. So it's not just being an end of death, an end of death or a death doula. I think of it as being a life doula that I am learning how to live more intentionally and better and show up every day so that when my turn is up, I will have said I lived a full life. So it's not just about death and dying. It's about how are we living? And that's why I do this. Oh we can't part two is gonna be necessary. Darnell says, he I wish I wrote it down somewhere. I we talked about it when I met with him. He says it's um he what did he say? He said it's like being a life jewel and he has a beautiful way of talking about it, and I that's exactly why I do it. It's not just about how we leave the world, it's how are we showing up every day to live better.

SPEAKER_01 28:47

So actually let's connect that because um in thinking about how we are showing up what can ardent listeners do to start incorporating um uh issues with equity or thinking about um equity in their everyday life.

SPEAKER_00 29:12

Yeah. You know what's funny? I think people really want to know like what is it that I can do? You know, we talk about inclusion, we talk about these issues, we all go back to our day-to-day lives. One of the things I've learned, especially working in organizations and professional services firms, is that it's amazing and important to have the conversation. And it's also really important to give people concrete tips or takeaways or the things they can do once they leave the conversation. Um, so there are some simple things. I mean, it's this is a muscle that you strengthen or you practice, which is great. It's not a destination. We're not going to have solved all the problems, but there are things we can do in our day-to-day lives to help shape the space that we are in, the to help shape the space um that we create for others. So, I mean, it's simple things, it's being curious, um, asking questions, you know, probing, not in a way that's awkward or you know, uh inappropriate, but I have found in all of the work that I do that one of the greatest strengths that I have is being curious and just coming from a place of genuine interest in another human being. And there is so much you can learn. There is so much you can be, there are so many barriers you can break down when you just keep an open mind and um and especially those who aren't necessarily super vocal, you know, pay attention to who's speaking, who's leaning in, who's not speaking in up as much. A lot of times the quieter people have a lot to say. Um, thinking about how we spend our time and our money, you know, are we supporting locally, you know, local women-owned, or it's Pride Month, LGBQ plus owned, or, you know, what are the organizations that we are volunteering for or with? That's something that I mentioned I do. Um what are we reading? What are we consuming? What are we listening to? Are we open to other perspectives? I feel like that's even been hard for me to really be open to other perspectives, but it's important. Um, how are we diversifying who we surround ourselves by and what we are consuming? Um, in the death work space, I think there's some really important, um, a really important need to recognize how different cultures and communities have traditions around death and mourning. So it just even at this park that I was telling you about, the natural burial ground, they have a separate space for Jewish individuals and Muslim um families to preserve their cultural traditions around um burial. And so, how are we respecting and learning about cultures and um death and mourning and how that shows up in different in different parts of the world? So I actually think there's some really simple, concrete things we can do in our day-to-day life that will allow us to show up better, but that will also positively impact those around us. And if we each do that individually, the ripple effect that that can then have is huge. Sometimes I have to think about it from that perspective because otherwise it can get really overwhelming. Um, and you know, it can be like, how is I really making a difference? Or, you know, are we moving forward or are we just, you know, continuously going back? So I think sometimes it's the micro actions, thinking about your own sphere of influence. And ultimately, if each of us do that, we can change the world.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

Absolutely. You know, I I tell I also tell people when we're talking about like being luxurious, that there's questions that I actually work really well for my kids are uh what do you want to tell me about your day? And tell me more. Love it. And they fill in the blank.

SPEAKER_00 33:11

And they tell me so much more than how was your day at screen? Right. We we think we're gonna get somewhere by saying, Hey, how was your day? Like it was good, right? You know, but it's simple things. How like what how are we asking questions? Nuanced little tweaks like that can open up a world of conversation.

SPEAKER_01 33:29

Yes, yes. So I am you know when you mention look at what you're consuming, what are you reading? What podcast you're listening to, and what kind of echo chamber do you prefer to be in? Because you know, just polarized. We do prefer, I mean, that's okay. We prefer an echo chamber, but I think what's really important is to question.

SPEAKER_00 33:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 33:49

Are we questioning even the things that we agree with?

SPEAKER_00 33:52

Yeah. Can we still question us? Yes. And I think that's so important for our kids too. I mean, these are all skills that they'll need to have as they navigate the world going forward. And I wish I had a I mean, I'm still building that muscle. I'm not gonna uh say that I, you know, have easy conversations with people who have very, very different views than me. But I think it's a muscle we can strengthen, but we have to expose ourselves to those different perspectives in order to do so.

SPEAKER_01 34:20

Yeah, and that that can feel very daunting.

SPEAKER_00 34:23

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 34:24

Um And then, of course, you mentioned being intentional with how we spend our money and um and looking at what different communities do and the traditions that they follow.

SPEAKER_00 34:36

Yeah. And absolutely, and I think uh one of the things that I think about every day is what privilege do I have? And how can I use that to help others? I mean, there's certainly parts of my we didn't get into this, this is a whole other conversation of our identity. Some of it's marginalized, some of it's privileged. How can I use the privilege that I have, whether that's, you know, being a lawyer or, you know, what whatever it might be, to help bring others up, lift other voices. Um, and so to the extent that, because I'm very, very mindful that there are many folks who don't have um some of the things that I have access to. So how can I use that in support of others and in the community?

SPEAKER_01 35:23

Yeah, absolutely.

unknown 35:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

How can people find you? If they're interested in your work as a death duel, how can they get to know you and uh continue this composition?

SPEAKER_00 35:38

Well, right now you can find me on social media. I'm on Instagram uh at being.jia. There is another person with my name in New York that is not me. That's another story because I get mistaken for her all the time, and she's doing her own amazing thing out there. I'm also on LinkedIn as well. So right now, those are the two best ways to find me and connect with me. And I'm more than happy to talk and engage um with anyone who is interested.

SPEAKER_01 36:08

Yeah, incredible. On Instagram at beanjaya. It's not Jay's.

SPEAKER_00 36:15

Yes, exactly. Beam.j. Yes, I both. Thank you, Pooja.

SPEAKER_01 36:19

Um, it's really funny because both of us have extremely common names. And I'm sure we're mistaken for having very uh unique names, except your names were so common.

SPEAKER_00 36:29

I tell people that all the time. They're like, You're the first Jenga government, and I'm like, believe me. Jay, and I'm sure Pooja too, right? I mean, in India these names are your grands are like the Susan of the Exactly. I'm real person. And I'm sure yours gets mispronounced all the time as well.

SPEAKER_01 36:48

Yes. Yes, indeed. You know, I have my kids call me by my first name. They call me Mama, but they have said my name so many times at home. Because I never want my kids to feel like they can't pronounce my name, and I never want them to mispronounce it. So sometimes my second one, uh how is Puja mispronounce?

SPEAKER_00 37:09

I know. I could see your last name.

SPEAKER_01 37:13

I'm not quite sure I understand how you mispronounce Puja, but Yeah, sometimes people put like a Z in there, like Pooja. Okay sometimes or a light, any and then there's like a whole variety of things. But my younger one, youngest one, will say, Mama, mama, mama, and then we'll be answering, right? And finally, Pooja.

SPEAKER_00 37:33

Well, we could talk about that. I mean, there's a million things we could talk about, but the importance of getting someone's name right is a whole other thing as well. I firmly believe that we should try our very best, and we are all human and we make mistakes, to pronounce someone's name the way they wish to have it said.

SPEAKER_01 37:52

Simply. And can we just let a non-corollarity? Yeah, when you mess up somebody's name, just say oops, and try to get it right the next time, but please don't say you butchered it. It's like violent minds about my name. And it's like, do we not use that word?

SPEAKER_00 38:10

Someone once told me, someone once told me, I said, Can I pick your brain sometime? And she's like, Can you not tell me that you want to pick my brain? And ever since then, whenever I reach out to people, I'm like, I cannot say pick your brain. Never thought about it that way. But I'm like, yes, why anyone want to pick anyone's brain? But your name, pick your brain. Let's be softer words, you know.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

Yeah, nonviolent communication. Jim, it's wonderful to have you here. Thank you, thank you, thank you. You have enlightened our audience, you've enlightened me. Um thinking a lot about Ray Conte throughout this whole episode, and you know, I just value all of your work and your thoughtfulness about you know how you want to live your life and how you want to give to your community. It's it's aspirational and inspirational.

SPEAKER_00 39:09

Well, thank you, Pooja. It has been wonderful. I really appreciate all that you do. And if I can support you in any way, I'm in your corner. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 39:20

And for all of you, we can't wait to see you next week on Everyday Equity. Take care.