Left East to West

Avi Lewis wins Federal NDP leadership, with our Comms Pro Panel

• Nikki Hill & Tom Parkin • Episode 12

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From the Winnipeg convention centre, Nikki and Tom dig into details about the Federal NDP convention and Avi Lewis' win to become party leader.

Then, Nikki and Tom are joined by our NDP comm pro panel to talk about the challenges that lay ahead for Avi as he works to rebuild the federal NDP. Our comms pro panel is:

- Melanie RIcher, former communications director for Jagmeet Singh
- Farouk Karim, former communications director for Tom Mulcair and the Guy Caron leadership campaign, and
- Leah Ward, former communications director of Rachel Notley

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SPEAKER_07

Left east to west with me, Nikki Hill.

SPEAKER_03

And meet Tom Parkin. We're recording in Winnipeg on Sunday afternoon, just after the adjournment of the Federal NDP Convention where Abby Lewis has been announced as the party's leader in a first ballot win.

SPEAKER_07

We're actually still in the convention hall. You can probably see behind us. There's maybe a dozen people in here.

SPEAKER_03

You can hear the bang.

SPEAKER_07

You can hear a lot in the background. So sorry for that. We're also really grateful for our panel joining us after this lively weekend. So we had Leah Ward here with Tom and I. Melanie Richet was here all weekend, but had to head back to Ottawa. So she's joining us online, as is for Cream. We are going to give you details about convention that you're not going to get anywhere else and some insight and analysis from our convention panel.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, let's introduce uh before we get to our details, let's introduce our panelists a little bit more. Leah Ward is a VP at Wellington Advocacy, and they are a former director for communications for Rachel Notley in the Alberta and the Media Caucus. Melanie Richet is a principal at Burns of Strategies and the director of communications and media for former NDP leader, Jackie Singh. She's a freaking commentator. You've probably seen that working with hardcovering conventions. She was with CPAC and Why Open. Um and for Luke Kareem, who's a former ADP staff who worked in Parliament Hill, including serving as communications director for Guy Caron during his or during his leadership race. And uh he's now hosts a uh podcast called Distinct, a weekly podcast that um explains Quebec politics for the wider Canadian audience that he's a staffer at King Union postal orders and labor movements. This is a guy we're gonna have to hear from them after we break it down.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah. Yeah, so yeah, as you can see, it gets empty hall, conventions done, leaders elected. Congratulations to Avi Lewis. We understand we're gonna hear more from him. It looks like he's hitting the ground running already, pretty big calendar full of events and plans of the next few days, including a press conference tomorrow with Don Davies, who's been the interim leader of the federal NDP, delivered his last speech today in that capacity. And it's been a really busy day already in this post-leadership election period. So let's get into it. First of all, some major points about what happened here just this morning when we got our leadership remote. So there were about 100,000 members who signed up to the NDP over the election period. This morning, we're gonna give you some numbers. So there were 70,930 votes that were eligible. We won't get you into the detail of spoiled ballots and how many folks actually did vote. Avi Lewis had enough votes to win on the first ballot at 56%. So again, big congratulations. That gave Avi Lewis 39,734 votes. Heather McPherson, 20,899, Danielle Johnson, 5,159, Rob Ashton, 4,193, and then Tony McQuill at 945 votes.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. So a pretty clear win.

SPEAKER_07

Pretty clear win.

SPEAKER_03

No, no doubt about that. I think we can say decisive, yeah. Yeah, I can say decisive, and I'm sure that he is very happy about that. Um to get that kind of endorsement from the membership. Uh a couple of things I think interesting here, Nikki, and we'll go into this a lot more later. First well, I don't think we're gonna touch on the issue of participation very much. But then but then with a hundred thousand members and seventy-one percent of them turning out to vote, that's actually very high. It is, yeah uh for for these kind of races, which where often the results, regardless of party, can be about 50%. I mean, that's you know, so the the campaigns, uh the well, yeah, folks came out and voted mostly.

SPEAKER_07

Well, and I was looking at the numbers too of the ballot breakdown, and they mostly were online votes. So we have a one member, one vote system in the NDP now. And so that means that people found it easy to get online and cast those ballots because there was a quite a high number of of that on online balloting. So pretty good. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

So and I think the other thing too is what we because I don't think we're gonna get into this later with our panel, but I think, you know, there's been a lot of narrative and leaders lead up to this convention about the relevance of the NDP, momentum around it. I would argue, you know, uh having such a high turnout. We had over, I think almost pushing into 2,000 delegates here. Uh huge turnout for the election race. People obviously caring. So no matter who was winning here, I think we had a fair bit of interest in this leadership race, which makes she wasn't as observed by the mainstream media.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, and I would say is, you know, just in terms of mood, uh, you know, Abby Lewis won, but uh people voted for other candidates too. I I found the mood was pretty positive, even though, you know, some people, a lot of people, that wasn't the candidate that they voted for, but uh the mood was positive. One thing I would touch on and you know notice here is something we're gonna get into a little bit with our panelists, I think. Um Rob Ashton was perceived as being the third, but he ended up being the fourth, which is kind of puzzling. Tanil quite strong. Yeah. What do you make of that?

SPEAKER_07

You know, I am a huge Teneal Johnson fan, and I want to see her take that Powell River, uh, I think it's Power River North Island writing. I might be mixing up the names here that she ran in the federal last time. I especially loved to see her take it from Aaron Gunn. Um and uh I think they did a great job. I think there was a really cool thing we actually talked about on the show before, which was this partnership between Tanil and Tony McQuail, getting each other over the line, but also the other campaigns and supporting them. But I think Tanil was also, I believe it's the first Indigenous woman on an NDP ballot and the first indigenous person. I'm gonna get this right because we had some questions about this. The first indigenous person on a federal ballot, I think it's to the end of the process. So I think there was a great campaign about bringing her her voice as she's a social worker, but she's also really cool, great energy, someone we want to see, I think, continue in politics. And people really loved that about her. Well, and they ran a great campaign, like credit to them.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, now apparently something like um 15, I can't remember the number, but uh, I was told 15,000 people voted in the last 38 hours. Oh wow, yeah. And and I and I do I, you know, if you if you were watching on CPAC or on the news, you saw her performances she's a very compelling person.

SPEAKER_07

It was, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

You know, and and you just she's just there's just something infectious about her. Yeah. And you just I wonder whether she maybe got a last minute person. Yeah, maybe. Hey, I'm gonna vote for her. Yeah, it was a pretty impressive turnout. So now Rob's uh you know, right he's gotta be disappointed with that. But he he he centered his campaign about the labor movement, which again we'll talk about this more. But um you know that that he r he really, you know, they I don't I don't know whether he struggled because there was a polarization between him sorry, between Heather and and Abby, which didn't leave him much space. I think he maybe has campaign uh wobbled a couple times in terms of uh communication. What exactly were they saying? I think uh where where do we go?

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, this is Rob Ashton and and again uh fake fan. He's actually uh practically a neighbor, we we say we're in the same same writing. I've known him for years. We've worked on different advocacy issues together. I he is one of those people that when you talk to him and and and I think as we think about how we talk to workers, he is someone who can go and have a conversation with a regular person about politics. Now, I also think, you know, the NDP being founded with the labor movement. We are a party that is founded with the labor movement. Maybe as well, we didn't see that translate into all our labor delegates this weekend, though. And I was talking to a number of union leaders who had, you know, a high number of credentials available, but a lower number of delegates here. So maybe there might be a bit of that as well, where people just didn't make it to Winnipeg or they didn't get those credentials underway in vote, even though again we have one member, one vote, but maybe not present in in the room as well.

SPEAKER_03

Um Abby Davis acceptance speech uh this morning after a very good speech by Don Davies. Uh Abby gave a very good speech himself.

SPEAKER_07

And another funny Don Davies speech. We all get to meet the funny Don Davies.

SPEAKER_03

Um a couple of I think we got three three uh quotes here that are kind of interesting that maybe we would just explore for a minute. Um he said he said that uh everywhere in Canada uh this is this party is united in our commitment to work with people, and no, we will not always agree on every single issue. That in a way sums up where we are at. Yeah. I I think fairly. Uh that that underlying belief, whether it's Primary or Mars Styles or Nate Nenji or Carla Beck is respectful for working with people, that's a basis. And then there seems to be some, you know, fluidity from there, shall we say. Uh he's also put out the idea of uh uh this is more challenging, maybe, but he wants to trump proof the economy by investing massively in Canadian economic independence, using the unmatched power of public ownership to ensure the fundamentals of a good life. That was part of his acceptance speech, is sort of the offer. And then finally his closing line, and I'm not sure whether you used this one before, but I liked it, and I I think it could be very effective for him. He says, I am promising that we will work towards a government that works for the many, not for the money. Yeah, everything.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think, you know, uh a speech that had been definitely, I think, tested throughout the campaign so that, you know, many, not the money was getting some good not support. I also think like we're at this time where, as and we'll talk later with our panel about some of the provincial sections and you know, where especially where the NDP is is in government provincially, we saw some additional uh moves today from where we're in opposition in response to the leadership. But I think when we go back into that investing massively in the Canadian economic dependence, we've actually seen what I would say that whether it's Carney or some of the provincial premiers, that where we're looking at how to respond to the Trump threat and building the Canadian economy, we have really been drawing back into some of the old ideas and starting with them on where we could build an economy. Like maybe what we see, and I'll be Lewis bringing here, and what he's indicating is where we need to be going when we're talking about things like a just transition or a green economy. So I think that's probably layering in here where um, you know, there is potential for the yeah.

SPEAKER_03

There's a bit of a jobs and economic agenda he actually went into more detail in the speech, and I'm sure it's a good idea. We're not gonna cover the whole speech, yeah. But he does go into a little bit more detail in the speech about how he sees this economic agenda, jobs agenda coming out. And I I I say for myself, I I think that this is obviously what you know, we can talk about redistribution, we can talk about healthcare, we can talk about all kinds of important things, but if we're not talking about jobs, that people aren't feeling like we're a party that can uh make sure they have a paycheck every Thursday, um, then we're not really uh not really a party for the working people. That's kind of the problem. So anyway, I like that I like seeing that there. Um, we want to talk about the slate issue.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, the slate. So we did, you know, coming at a convention, we wanted to do a little bit of analysis about what actually happened here, what maybe you didn't see on CPAC. So Avilis, of course, we had the leadership campaigns. Uh those were all underway. We also, I think, um, you know, traditionally at every convention there are going to be slates. Often those are really informed by our our labor partnerships as well, and in who turns out who's being put forward. I think they're thoughtfully put forward into ensuring the diversity of our party as you know, in every section that we do this. So we did have internal elections, table officers for the party, which is actually relatively small, uh, party executive, and then our federal council, which is our governing body between these conventions, because they can only bring us all together so often. Um, so the most important bodies of our party. So three of the four table officers elected from the full conventions floor, so we all got to ballot, others elected by caucuses, which were, you know, some were hours of balloting on Friday night, is only New Democrats like to do. There was a lot of like, yeah, there is a lot of calls for helping people out with food and hours. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Um but she held she she wants me to say she stuck it in to the very end. But I I'm not sure that's 100% true.

SPEAKER_07

I'm sorry, BC caucus. I got hangry. I stayed for a few votes. Um just put that into the public record now. So yeah, so I think you know, we do have our labor caucuses, women's caucus, and so on, and then regional representation. So what we also saw, which is relatively unusual, I would say, if I think back to other leadership conventions, is that we did see a slate from the Abbey Lewis campaign. They did take the three convention-elected spots. So our president, treasurer, vice president here. Um, and then we'll see, I believe today they that some of those folks were going into other meetings as we wrap the day and we've been sitting here. And so I'll probably see a pretty big mix here from across the country. But we do have the leader having brought in the three top spots from his team and folk that see he wanted there. So, you know, it does, I think, change some of the dynamic here. So you're both leader, you're starting out on your path, and then you've got a new executive who's also setting out a new path and learning the role. So we'll, you know, see see where this all goes and and wish everybody luck in in these new roles.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, yeah. And we we only touch on, we're only gonna touch on it with the panel, but there's there's been some criticism here. I think we we have to be honest to say that you know, maybe uh it wasn't necessary to run the um the full to run a slate that associated with a candidate. The other s there was another slate, but it wasn't associated with a candidate per se. Um whether that was maybe uh a little bit of overreach, whether that was really maybe creates a problem in terms of you know, now Abby has to go um, you know, nurture some relationships back again.

SPEAKER_07

So Yeah, so that's I think what we have to see. And and as as I think Abby Lewis is indicating is gonna hit that ground running. Yeah, there's also some work to do to you know repair some of these relationships. I think, you know, an observation that's been made is we, and I think we will probably talk about this a little, is you decrease in representation on the and making sure that we're a party that reflects the diversity of the country, a lot of work that's been done to build in. And I do think like it's it's a natural instinct, I think, for a leader to want their own people around them. And of course, we have staff roles at the federal level as well. There's gonna be that, I think, lean into wanting your people. And that's, you know, great. And we've certainly seen that in BC elections over elections, but you also want to make sure that you're not only bringing in your people because our party is huge. We're only at six MPs right now. There's a lot of rebuilding to do. And so you're gonna have to bring in that bigger tent, including people who were on that other slate. And actually, we should just be clear there were not only two slates, I think we had three or four different slates here, but there were two, I think, that had the majority of the votes going on. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. Um, but you know, the the typically in the NDP there there is there's assembly of somewhat of a slate, and usually it's done in a way to try and incorporate various tendencies and regions and make sure there's uh enough women and enough people for different things. And it takes a while to put that slate together. It takes a while. And I would say I don't think from what I understand talking, folks, that the Lewis campaign really turned their mind to this one until the very end. So maybe a little scrambly to try and pull it together and therefore didn't quite make the mark of the usual um balances between in representation. So um maybe they know it, right? Maybe they know it.

SPEAKER_07

They go, well, you know what this is the thing on the the list of things to look at now as you're coming out of the convention where you got to you as a new leader um and and who you need around the table with you. So I think you know, once you become leader, you tend to realize you need a lot of a bigger table. We've done a bigger table, bigger tent. If you're especially if you're gonna pull off some of the the commitments that you've made in in terms of that local strength, but you need every person who ran here at this convention probably has a role that they need to be taking, whether it's locally or provincially or at that federal and and doing some of those those relationship voting in easy.

SPEAKER_03

You might even say every person at this convention altogether. Yeah. They all need some sort of assignment to go home with.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Well, oh, should we um get into our guests and let's let's get over to our panel and uh dive into these issues a little more.

SPEAKER_07

Sounds great. Let's get into some questions.

SPEAKER_03

Okay. But it's been a long race, and there has been some damage done in getting there. So that needs to be addressed in this new role. We've got lots of details to dig into, but just just top line. Um Abby's speech talked about unity. How much of a challenge does he have ahead of him to start uh as he takes his next step? Uh let's let's Leah, let's start with you since you're right here with us a little bit.

SPEAKER_04

I think there was something quite telling about uh the speech that Avi delivered around around Unity and how he spoke about it, almost declaratively, um, and less an invitation. And I think he he's really gonna lean, he's gonna need to lean into the idea that he needs to do the outreach, that the the conversation about unity needs to be an invitation to reunite and not so much a like a statement that we are now united. You know, we saw within minutes of his election that there were statements coming out of Alberta and Saskatchewan recently again in DC. And yes, I will I'll leave it for now, but I think that's um a good indicator that we are not yet united and that work needs to be taken on seriously.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, maybe Vessi Fowler. Okay, yeah. No, I thought unity was the main message he wants to uh convey today. Now, as in love life and in politics, actions speak louder than words. So we'll see if that's followed up with action. Now the first reactions from the Western provinces are pretty clear. Uh he needs he Mr. Lewis will need to do more if he wants that unity. But there's two forces that are colliding. Mr. Lewis has a clear mandate: 56%, 70% participation rate, 1.4 million raised. So he has that mandate. It's not like it's uh it's a clear mandate. So does the government in provinces and the official opposition in provinces. So that's gonna be the clash, but he's gonna have to settle that because before talking to Canadians, you need to put your house in order.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I I the the interesting thing that that Leah pointed out too of you know, declaring versus invitation is the same thing that I had picked up on. Um I I don't think it's enough to, you know, say the ball is in their court. You're the federal leader, you have to be the bigger person. Um and you're also, to be frank, the one with with less to lose, because obviously those who are in official opposition or in government, um, it it is more of a you know, um not more important, but but the results are there. So you need to consider those carefully. Um and again, as federal leader, you're gonna have to manage a lot of those relationships. Um so so my advice to the campaign as they're mending those relationships or building those relationships is to uh you know let the past be the past and and stop, you know, trying to bring that up and be the bigger person. Be the one that's doing the outreach, be the one that's saying I want to collaborate and be the one that's saying, particularly to our friends out west, um, that I want to be a partner to help you deliver for people in Alberta and Saskatchewan, in Manitoba and British Columbia, wherever uh it be, instead of, you know, well, the door's open. If they want to talk to me, they can talk to me. I don't think that that's gonna work.

SPEAKER_03

So we're in the Winnipeg convention uh space and uh the convention's over and it's wrapped, and and so we're hearing some of the noise from the people who are taking the staging down. We're not on fire.

SPEAKER_06

We cannot see if we're on fire. Okay, so let's talk more about leadership. So obviously, something sometimes in winning you also lose something. And in losing, you're still winning something here. So for Abby coming into his first day, is I think we should take it.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, it was a far away. It was a little

SPEAKER_05

Uh one of the things that I really want to pick up on is what Leah said about um, you know, declaring that uh reunited versus uh the invitation of where you were reunited. And one of the words or one of the things that I kind of picked up on is the the the approach of the ball is in your court as it relates to to the provinces. I don't think that that's enough. You're the federal leader now, so it's it's the onus is on you to be the bigger person and to do the work needed to mend those relationships. And that will require, you know, putting feelings aside and and doing a lot of the outreach, doing a lot of the the proposals for collaboration and and not getting in the way of of the folks who are currently governing or who are about to potentially govern. Um, because the the truth of the matter is, is the stakes are bigger for them than they are for us right now because they have either government or potentially being next in line for government on the line. So um the advice that I would give to to Avi and his team is to be the bigger person, to do the outreach, and to show those folks in those provinces in a real way how uh he can collaborate to make people's lives better in those provinces.

SPEAKER_04

If I can add one thing to what Mel's saying here is that I think it it certainly wasn't said out loud, but there is a little bit of a tone between the lines that um that there was some sort of a hierarchy between the federal government and the provinces, and he needs to remember that that does not exist.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, a little more peer-to-peer, maybe.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03

Absolutely. You're not prime minister of them.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, we're yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_07

Okay, let's talk leadership campaigns. So we just had a great team here of candidates, but they're they're they're looking their win some line, obviously. Sometimes in winning, you also lose something, and in losing, you could win something. So for Abby, is there a loss that needs to be addressed? And for our other candidates, did their campaigns manage to make a point that will endure even if they didn't actually win?

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, here you are. Let's go with reversible. We'll start with you, Melanie, and we'll work backwards.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, I guess one of the big things that um I would say maybe is not something that we heard a lot in in Avi's speeches, and and maybe we heard in in in Heather's speeches is this idea of the big table or the big tent. Um, the idea of, you know, today he's no longer the leader for the people who voted for him, he's the leader for for all new democrats, and and day one really of his campaigns to go talk of his campaign to go talk to Canadians. Um and and we do this thing in our party where you know you've got to be the most progressive and you've got to agree with a hundred different things. And if you don't, sometimes it feels feels like we're telling people need not apply. Um and and one of the things that we heard from from Premier Canu, we heard from Rachel Knotley, and we've heard from others is if we want to actually deliver the things that we know are important to people to make their lives better, we gotta win. Um, and the the way that we win is we gotta go talk to people and talk to people in a way that they understand. So I think that's maybe if if we really want to find a uh a loss, and and there's some good numbers coming up from the Avi team today, so I don't think there's there's many. Um, but but that's the one thing, the one message that we didn't hear from Avi, and we perhaps heard from other teams that I thought, um, at least for this New Democrat, resonated. Um, because I may not necessarily agree, you know, with with everything that Avi put forward, but I definitely agree with a lot of it. Um but the most important thing, I guess, is the idea that the NDP makes people's lives better, and we really need to um double down on that um and to show folks or continue to show folks that that we're the ones that have their back. So I guess that's the if you were to find one loss or one improvement from the other campaigns, that's the one that I that I paid attention to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, yeah, the the the fact that the how the numbers came out put for the four other candidates was kind of surprising for me, especially for Mr. Ashton. And so maybe that will have some repercussion in the uh in the party. But what I would suggest to for Mr. Lewis is not to be too drunk with the numbers he had, not to because there's a tendency with the overwhelming win like this on their first ballot to come in to come in and to clean slate and to start with new, right? And I would suggest uh highly recommend not to do that uh for many reasons. One is experience, there's a lot of experience in the party that needs to be uh tapped into. Uh, I know there was a lot of adversarial for Mr. Lewis in the free in the last years, right? I was a staffer during the Malcare era, so I I saw that from the inside, right? I would say bravo to Mr. Lewis because usually critics of the party don't become leaders. So he did organize and he did become a leader and he put his uh his and all the action followed the word. So that's a good thing. But don't be uh use that to bring bring all those candidates uh in the fold, give them uh special roles, important roles, especially that some of them, I'm thinking of uh Ashton, uh Taniel or even McPherson, they're in places that you will need them there, and you would need those people to speak to the provincial counterparts too. So you need to bring those all these people together to make sure that because the unity part in the next weeks, next month is the most crucial part because otherwise Canadians won't listen. So he needs to put that in order first.

SPEAKER_04

Yeah, uh, I think that's such an excellent point, and especially when you mention Heather McPherson is the uh only sitting MLA or in sorry, I get steeped in provincial politics too. Uh you know, that's an that's an important um uh thing that she represents and and an asset that he can use, not to mention she was uh the closest runner up. So uh I do hope that he takes seriously the experience that she brings and and honors that. You know, if I think about sort of one of the trade-offs, I don't know that it was necessarily deliberate or maybe even an obvious trade-off at this point, more of a red flag, but we're seeing, you know, the the energy that Jugmeat was able to bring to the party party in terms of young people and people of color was really important for our movement. It enriched us, uh, it it you know gave us credibility as a national party. Uh, and it's really important to represent the diversity of this country in our party. You know, I it's on its face right now. We're seeing an executive that's mostly white. We're seeing some of that diversity is not immediately reflected. So I I won't call it a loss yet. I'm gonna say, watch that. Let's not let that go. Let's work double time over time to make sure that we preserve uh diversity in this party and a welcoming place for people of color.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah. We can't not talk about these two letters that came out. Um and there's been as well some comment from Mr. Eve, and we saw a tweet from Mark South as well, and we saw a comment from from Wob. Um but the ones I think the most concerning and we need to address it are the ones from Carla and from Heed. Uh immediately after the announcement of Abby's win, the NDP leader in Alberta, and uh put out a press release saying the direction of the Federal Party under this leader is not in the interest of Alberta. And then we had uh Carla Beck say she won't meet with him. This was in response to a request uh for uh that she said she received yesterday uh for a meeting. Um she said she will not meet with him until he reverses his position on opposing any fossil fuel development, including LNG. Okay, but um if managed correctly, can a distinction or creating a distinction between the federal and provincial parties actually be a positive for for both uh or for all? Um but maybe in that are there guardrails, are there certain lanes that people have to stay in to keep this to be a uh a safe relationship where things don't don't turn negative um and and and stay in the idea that you know Naheed's gonna do his thing, Carl's gonna do his thing, Abby's gonna do their thing, and as Abby likes to say, we're gonna disagree sometimes. Or as Heather would say, we like to find the points of agreement, which are kind of two ways of saying, uh two different ways saying the same thing. But maybe is the distinction could it be played as a helpful thing if managed correctly, Leah? What do you think? Oof.

SPEAKER_02

We solved the problem.

SPEAKER_04

We solved all the problems right here, right now. Uh look, I mean, I think Mel and I especially probably did commentary on, you know, I don't want to say opposing sides, but on different sides of this debate for years now, right? Like I don't I can't think of a single show that I did during when Rachel Knotley was the leader in Alberta and Jug Meatsing was the leader in uh federally where I didn't have to address those disagreements, right? It does not go away. And there is never not an appetite for those questions from the media. They're always looking for those angles because any kind of any new sign of tension or conflict is of interest and it blows the whole thing up and it puts pressure on both parties. I don't know that I yet feel optimistic that this could be a productive tension. And I think where I worry now uh is the more polarized nature of it. So I think when we and Mel were doing this dance uh on behalf of our respective leaders, there was at least a, well, there was often a conversation. Um there was an agreement around the workers and and sort of a respectful, um, I want to say sacred cow around the industry itself. Um in this case, we're talking about uh like a very direct uh and very explicit opposition to the fossil fuel industry. That's tougher. That's a tougher one to walk around. It's a tougher one to do the thing that Mel and I did often, and many people obviously the rest of you did as well, where you sort of focus on the agreements, where you you know stake out your ground relative to your constituencies and the people that you represent. Those were all actually very useful ways of holding that tension. This one's a bit tougher. Uh I'm not exactly sure how they navigate it.

SPEAKER_03

Since you've debated this one uh with Leah before, can it be a productive tension? Does it is there a distinction that has a difference, but it's also okay?

SPEAKER_05

Right. I I I do I I agree with Leah. I find it, I I find it challenging to figure out just because of the very nature of the constitution of the party, um, but also the different the different factions that we're representing. But but I think at the core of this one, to Leah's point, I think um there was a relationship that existed before it turned sour. Um and then when it did turn sour, an acknowledgement, at least privately, that you know, the the federal party was at fault for that and for not doing it properly and and uh an onus of wanting to fix that. Um now, was it always easy? No, but the the the understanding that it was the you know, it was Jagmeet's onus, Jigmeet's team's onus, to continue to reach out to to Alberta, to continue to make sure um that we were trying to mend what we had broken. Um and and again, uh uh an acknowledgement that no matter what, Jagmeet was not going to make things worse. He was not going to, you know, throw punches unnecessarily. And I think this time, um, you know, as it relates to Avi, there was there's a bit of a I'm I'm proud that I made this difficult for people. I'm proud that this became difficult for folks in Alberta. Um, and I think what you're seeing now with with uh Nunchi is I'm now gonna have to continue that battle that you kind of started. Um, and and if I if I'm Carla Beck, I'm thinking the same thing. And of course, with with David Eby, with some of the comments that were made um in British Columbia and the leadership race. Um when I'm when I'm governing and and I'm you know looking to a provincial election that I may lose, um, and there's these projects that are on the line, that um there's a very sensitive ecosystem with industry and First Nations at play. Um that that's that's way harder. And and the the the plus side of even that is Jmeet still had 40 some MPs, right? When he did this, and most of those MPs were in British Columbia. We're down to six MPs. That's that's a way different conversation. You're less, again, I hate saying this, it breaks my heart saying this, the last election broke my heart, but we're less important, right? So we can't assume the same space and expect the same respect. So I think a lot of those relationships will need mending. And again, it'll be the onus on Avi for what happened previously, um, but also the onus on Avi as federal leader that he's gonna have to do the work and his team will have to do the work from a team-to-team perspective to show um the others that there's there's a um an opportunity for them to come to the table instead of it just being a challenge. And if you're able to show the opportunity to collaborate, show the opportunity for benefit, um, then I think I think that it'll be okay that there's a few things that we disagree on, but there's got to, at the very base of it, have to have a bit of a respect there. And I think that's what's lacking is people don't believe that there is a respect. So until that's shown, I think that's going to be a difficult thing to navigate.

SPEAKER_03

For just to fine-tune this of for you, um just with Judge Mead or with Tom O'Care before, the expectations were different. In a way, we come into this with different expectations because we know the positions.

SPEAKER_00

Do you think that matters in this issue with with uh Carla and then she's yeah, I think that I think what Melanie just said about where we are as a party, the uh at six MPs and the level of of uh support we have among Canadians, it in uh it's an incentive to have bold ideas and not to listen and not to be and to be bolder and to be uh defiant, right? Because I mean, if you think about electoral math, we're at like six, seven, eight, nine percent, right? 10%, 12. I saw 12 in a poll, but let's say we're at 10%. To get to 20, to to get to 10 to 20, which get us mostly to uh official status, it's hard, but it's not as hard than to get from 20 to 40 to form power. Okay. So the the the the so that's the conundrum of the NDP always to get to 20, we can get there to 20. I think there's 20% of Canadians that are open to bold ideas and to uh uh public grocery and to uh to break the telecoms and all that. I think there is if well messaged, I think there is a 20% available there. The problem then becomes how do we get from that 20 to that 40 to form power? And and that's that would that that's what the conundrum comes. Right now, Mr. Lewis is at the level where he can, and plus with the numbers he has from the leadership race, he has a clear mandate to do what he wants to do. And I I'm guessing that he was gonna it's he's gonna do that. He painted himself in the corner during the campaign. There's no nuance. Now, I always want to see a great opportunity in crisis, and the way I see it, there's a there's uh one of the strongest trope in politics is Mixon goes to China, meaning somebody who is associated with one part of one ideology, sudden not suddenly, but moves from that ideology and brings with them the people that supports him. So, what I'm saying, the to be clear of what I'm saying, I think extra resource extraction is something it's it's a zero sum, it's it's either you're for it or you're not. Like it there's no in-between, right? And I think in the short, middle, and long-term interest, national interest of the country, we're gonna have to extract resources. Now, the the question is how, right? And where I see Mr. Lewis in his political uh proposition where there could be some uh bridging is on the public participation. I think that if you can do a grand bargain, resource extraction with public participation that goes to social programs or to affordability or something like that, and you can create that sort of program, you can bring in the provinces and the federal, but Mr. Lewis will have to put some uh water in his wine, or as we say. And so he's gonna have to do that because he's really, really identified with the environmental wing of the party. But if he successfully moves a little bit, and they move a little bit, then we can have something really, really, really strong, I believe.

SPEAKER_07

Yeah, I think it's interesting because the opportunity part and looking at the EV statement, which is being from BC in the last year, since we've had the Trump administration, you know, it is a pretty big pivot into the LNG, the major projects, maybe some of where uh was different conversation when we were elected, or even in 2017 we came into power. So I do think we saw there in that EB statement, like these are the priorities we have as British, as British Columbia government. But I sort of do think another opportunity here is on the movement building side, because there is a challenge in DC now for the EB government in that environmental base, in some of the climate work that needs to happen. So there could be opportunities to integrate a bit here, but also, you know, in a third-term government, having some movement building going on can be a big asset when there is going to be a campaign in the next couple of years minimum. So, you know, there's a some threats here for everybody. Um, we're gonna talk a little bit about some of the other results. So huge support we saw for Rob Ashton from the labor movement. Great. We saw his showcase yesterday. Um, lots of union members, the Steel Workers National Union, UFCW, we had the CLC president, lots of union locals and leaders. But when we did some all this morning, it didn't actually translate to the ballot box. So what do we think happened here? I also just want to give a shout out to the fact that Rob is uh in in my home writing and I've already talked to him today and said, hey, we gotta next step is getting you to run in the federal and get rid of our conservative MP. But in today's vote, what do we actually think happened? Leah, do you want to Yeah?

SPEAKER_04

I mean, I also talked to Rob and uh and was happy to hear that he's not planning to go anywhere and hopefully we'll we'll see more of it. I think uh I think that's good for the party and and healthy for all us. So um you know, it it may have been a little bit of assumption making that folks assumed that more support existed and that kind of uh dimmed a bit of the the urgency around around getting the vote out. Uh it's hard to say on day one exactly what what might have happened, but that's probably uh one of my one of my suspicions. I think there might have also been some confusion among voters, uh members who are voting. Uh if they were if they were showing up with a demand for change, you know, that was mostly that demand for change that sat with the Avi Lewis camp. If they were there to s for some stability and uh and kind of like a continuity, okay. A continuity, yeah, then then it was kind of the obvious choice. Rob sended a little bit of both. You know, his message around the future of the party is to return to our roots. Um, probably attracted people who wanted a little bit of both, maybe weren't quite interested in seeing you know the the status quo continue, uh, but weren't ready for as dramatic a change as Avi. And and I think that just might have been a smaller pool of people, given that that was probably his strongest pitch. So a bit wedged, probably. Yeah, or or diluted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05

I I think too, it shows the I I so think Rob properly embodies what it means to be, you know, an ally to labor, right? I think he like he means what he says, he walks the walk, he's not cosplay in any way, shape, or form. Um, but but there is still a disconnect between our party and that, right? I I think that we've seen that over the last few years of the disconnect between, you know, the NDP and our ties to labor. Um, but but I also think that there's a disconnect a little bit between labor leadership and their membership also, of like how do we make sure that we're all on the same line and we're fighting for the same things. And and I think it goes back to I I don't want to say everything's a communications problem because I'm obviously obviously a communicator and I don't want to, you know, say that the problem is because of me. But but I do think that one of the biggest problems, particularly yeah, it's well it's the research. Here we are. Yeah, the research requirement. There you go. Um, but but but one of the biggest problems, and this is not unique to the NDP. This we're seeing this, you know, for labor, we're seeing we saw with the Democrats coming out of the the US election, our our inability to talk simply with simple solutions. And it's because the problems we're faced aren't simple. But you know, I was having a uh a conversation, I'm not gonna say an argument, it was maybe a disagreement with someone, you know, in our universe about how um when Pierre Polyev came out against temporary foreign workers that we needed to stand up and say no, immigration is good. And I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. The the problem here isn't an immigration problem. The problem here is people feel like their jobs aren't secure. People are worried about temporary foreign workers because they feel precarious in their job. They feel like their jobs are secure and they don't have enough money to put food on the table. So if you're responding to that with immigration's good, you're, you know, you're racist if you don't think that immigration's good, you've totally missed the problem and you've pushed, further pushed all those people away. Instead of saying, let's talk about what you're actually worried about and let's make sure, yeah, let's make sure that we are making your jobs more secure. We're making sure that you've got better wages, we've got better protections on the job. And hey, by the way, you need help to do that. So we're gonna need immigration to come in and to back you up on the job site, but we're gonna make sure that when they are on the job site, they have the same safety training that you do, they have the same wages that you do. Do and that you're able to work together to, you know, build the project. And that's not what we're doing. Um, and I think the the the potential of Rob was really good, but but it highlights with the result a little bit still our inability to do both things, and and I think the work ahead that we need to do to kind of reconcile both those things.

SPEAKER_00

Uh I'm I think Mel hits it on the nail. I'm gonna go even further. I think it's another indicator that we might not be the party of workers, and that we need to uh wrestle with that and to uh face it because it's it's every convention, every meeting, every time uh I mean with NDPers, we're the party of workers, they're the party of workers, really. It has been a trend for the last, I would say, uh mid-90s, that workers are going getting away from left-wing parties. This is all over Western democracies. This is not only Canada. In Quebec, post-referendum 95, where the Parti Québécois has been always close to labor, it's starting to uh uh diminish. And today, if you go see uh private sector union workers, the uh that there's a problem there too, because as Melanie says, it's not only the relationship with the NDP and organized labor, it's the relationship with union representatives and their workers. I've worked in unions for 20 years, private sector, public sector, and I've seen uh how there's no more uh of that deep uh education, deep training, uh political training, uh things like that that have been gone. And it's not only the fault of unions most, yes, because they're doing the job, but it's also culturally, people, people are more individual, they're in their in their silos, there's no getting together and doing things uh to uh collectively. And that has that's society that has felt like this, and and so we have to be cognizant of that and not lie to ourselves and and uh and and uh you know, drape ourselves in the feel-good story that we are the party workers. Rob Ashton embodies a hundred percent the blue collar lunch pill, going hardworking, uh, you know, just stay out of my way, let me do the work, just give me good healthcare, good education, good retirement. I'm happy. Okay, he that's the guy we should be, that's the the person we should be representing. But how come he gets only five, six percent? And uh it's it doesn't it doesn't match. So need to address that too. We need to address union representatives too, and talk to them and go see what you're doing, are you doing training? What kind of training are you doing with your workers? And so if we want if we want to really do that and counter what poiliev is doing and the conservative are doing, and it's not only the conservative, as Melanie said, uh the Republicans, Trump with the blue-collar workers, same thing, right? All the right-wing parties in Europe right now that are popular, same thing. So we need to address that. And it's it can't be sufficient that we are the party of workers. Okay, show me what do you mean? Can you increase my salary? Can you uh help with healthcare? Can you help with my kids? Can you help with my retirement? Can you help with my job? Can we create new jobs? And and and and uh if we if we manage to be that, because we're in a context right now where we're rebuilding Canada, right? Sovereignty is back in, not only in Quebec, not only in Alberta, but Canadian sovereignty, uh, country sovereignty are back in. So, what do you need to be sovereign as a country? It's it's not rocket science. You need to be sufficient, self-sufficient. We are blessed to have all these resources in Canada and all these people with high knowledge and the workforce. So we can be sufficient on that. How many times have I heard in any NDT meetings we need to not only extract our resources, but we need to add value. We need to transform our resources here. We need to be in that. How many times how many times have I heard? How come we don't have uh more refinery for our oil? How come we can't do like value-added uh uh uh petroleum products? But all of that, but that's right now, that's the discussion we should be having right now. That's the discussion, uh discussion Carney is having with Daniel Smith. We should be having it too. What do we do? And that's something we can bridge with Nemchi, I think. But first we need to, Mr. Lewis will have to decide. Does he want to derive and get to 20%, or does he want to win and get to 40%? That's that's that's a dilemma. Obviously, the first step you need to walk before you run. So let's get back to official status, let's get back into the mid-teens, early, you know, uh small 20s in the numbers to get back in there. But eventually you have to think long term, how am I gonna build this party? And the provincial wings, not to come back to our but are super important. In 2015, I was there in the in the leader of opposition office when Rachel Notley won, was it was it if uh May, May of 2015? The it rocket fueled the support of the federal NDP. Absolutely. And so those those wins in provincial areas will help Mr. Lewis. He needs to understand that, and so that's why he needs to gab that bridge.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah, I I is you know, Fruit, I just want to second that feeling that in May when when when Rachel Notley won, it just inspired an idea of hope that you know what, we can do this stuff, right? We can win anywhere if we can win in Alberta, and that really helped uh the federal party. So, yeah, getting in the way, you've got to find a way to support them. But I I wanted to just add in a thought because I also worked in the labor movement most of my most of my career. And uh now I don't want to retire, but um, but you know, the labor movement needs somebody that they can put in front and go to the union hall to the general meeting and meet people uh who are the the the rank and phone members who is culturally not just not just in terms of what the value offer is as a policy offer, but culturally connected and talks the same language, feels the same emotions. Uh, and I think Rob really could be and still could be um uh a great representative to do that kind of B tour for Abby to keep rounding up the support for Abby if he's willing to do that. Um, but I think and I that would be wonderful, but I I also worry a little bit that what has happened here is that um, and maybe I'm wrong, but that unions didn't make much headway in selling memberships for him because there was too much already stacked against the idea of doing much for the NDP. So there's a lot of groundwork that would have to be done before you could have a candidate who did the kind of move that Rob was offering to make.

SPEAKER_05

I also think like we have the issue in Ontario, we're still running, you know, three parties in Ontario and we keep having a hard time to kill the liberals every election, right? And until we do that, we're not gonna be, you know, the way that that we've been able to do successfully at West. It almost felt the same way a little bit in this leadership. Nobody knew was Heather the person to beat Avi? Yeah. Was Rob the person to beat Avi? And not also the like the the who's gonna be representing workers in opposition to um, you know, somebody saying we're we're as it relates to resource extraction. So so because there was no clear choice, it kind of also didn't seem to go anywhere, right? It didn't really seem like people were mobilizing in the same way. I think Avi was able to excite people and to mobilize people. His base was like the folks who voted for him are motivated. Whereas everybody who kind of voted for Robert Heather was almost like, I'm not sure that I'm motivated in the same way. And I also don't know who to put my vote behind, um, other than for this issue or that issue. So I also think that there's maybe some of that too. That in in your point to your point, Tom, of the um it felt like there was no point almost, or or or that it was too far ahead. I think there was some of that playing into that.

SPEAKER_04

If I can just add something into your question, Nikki, about sort of when you win, what do you lose, and when you lose, what do you win? You know, this this is really pressing on my mind right now in terms of uh the relationship with labor. And I think if Avi is smart and thoughtful, he will put someone like like Rob um in a position of like liaison or organizer or some way way to build that up. I think that's always a good sign of leadership when you sort of do an assessment on day one of where your gaps and weaknesses are and then fill them with with with people around you. Uh the th what I'm what I'm noticing too in terms of what we might have given up is experience in both speaking to directly to workers that Rob offers and beating conservatives that Heather offers. Right. So those two things are pretty key. Rob told me repeatedly throughout the campaign that he would go to events and people would approach him and say, I voted for Pierre Poiliev in the last election and I'm here. I think that we need him, we need that ability uh to get those voters back. Yeah, so absolutely.

SPEAKER_00

Let's just uh switch gears a little bit. If I can add okay, so we said he's gonna have to work with provincial leaders, man fancy. He's gonna have to work with labor. There's a third part of it that's dear to my heart, Quebec. Now, uh in his I I was happy that in his speech, now Mr. Lewis is the one that speaks the most French out of all the candidates, so that's that's gonna be helpful. But what I would suggest that first of all, in the next weeks, month or so, we're gonna have bad news in Quebec from the NDP. Like all you know, everything's uh all the signs indicate that the NDP is gonna lose his deputy uh NDP leader and uh the only MP in Quebec, uh Mr. Boulrisse. So that's gonna be another uh obstacle, another uh uh challenge that he's gonna have to face. And I would suggest maybe in the first part of I don't know what his plan is, but if I'm putting myself in the operational mold, the first the first plan of business is to get to 20%, get to official status. Maybe Quebec is not part of that in that first in that first part, right? I would not put too much energy in that to get there. But thinking long term, you need to start putting back roots in Quebec. Uh Mr. Leighton took uh from 2004 till the orange wave, it took all that work in Quebec to get there, right? So he's gonna have to uh uh uh continue working on his French. And I would suggest at least once a month, spend a couple days in Quebec. Uh reconnect with old MPs, reconnect with all the uh activists or new activists that he he brought brought along, uh new generation. I don't know, but spend some time, even though it's not going to be paying off in the short term, in the long term, once you're ready to get to the second level to power, it'd be important that that work has been done uh ahead of time.

SPEAKER_03

Okay, so let's let's just uh think about um so we're now switching from a place where Abby he took the slate, he he won, you know, uh impressively. Uh he's got him shift from being a a leader of a campaign, a candidate in a campaign, to a leader for all new democrats or all federal new democrats anyway. Um he's got probably some things in mind that he wants to achieve, and I bet you all the folks around this table here have some thoughts about some things that he wants to be able to signal, some deliverables, if you will, for the media environment to say, I have my plan of rebuilding and uh I did this and I did this and I did this. Uh one of them I is not not far down the road is the CLC convention. So what do you what do you think are the kind of things that say uh as we approach from here to summer that might be the the good news indicators that that Abby is is on the path to healing any uh wounds, to bringing the team together, the unity message that he talked about, let's start with Mel.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, um make those meetings with provincial counterparts happen. Um if if leadership in those provinces is saying no, well, how can your team build, start building those relationships? Um I remember, you know, there was a point where I can't remember who the leader in Saskatchewan was at the time, but him and Jigmeet, or they weren't talking to Jigmeet, but I was still talking to the director of communications. And it wasn't necessarily a, hey, let's have a chat, let's let's be friends. It's a hey, just so you know we're gonna talk about this thing and we're gonna do everything we can not to not to step on your ground, but just wanted to make sure you knew so that you could prepare for it in case anything kind of went sideways, right? So start at that level if you're not able to do leader to leader and do the same thing with labor. Figure out um who you should be talking to, start building those relationships, start figuring out um what our, you know, our our collaboration looks like. Um and I would say start start putting together a plan. We don't think that there's an election coming anytime soon, but it it will come. Um so figure out how are you making the choices different between you and the prime minister and you and Pierre Peliev and figure out what are those next ridings that we need to go get? Which ridings did we, you know, lose by a close margin where we've got MPs that lost and they're willing to run again? Figure those out, have those conversations and start plotting that because it will come sooner rather than later. And I would say this this may not be popular, but how are you getting to Ottawa? How are you getting your seat? How are you taking the opportunity of when media, you know, cares about us, you need to be there and you need to be able to respond. And I would say it's not enough to have one of our MPs respond. We know we we live in a world where it's leader-centric. So you have to have your leader in in the middle of that. Um so how is he going to be in Ottawa to take those opportunities? Um, I I think those are that's what I would have figured out, if not on paper. Sorry, not if not in practice what am I trying to say? If not in practice as a concept, like down on paper, here's the plan, here's how we're working towards it, and and use your champions. Um, there's a lot of people like us who do this stuff. Talk to those folks, pass your message to those folks, show the potential with us so that we can tell the good news um and and empower you know the people who are within the party to tell the good stuff that you're working on, is what I would say uh needs to start happening.

SPEAKER_03

Mel, before I bounce over for because I want to talk about the labor component, can I just ask you very specifically? We've got some signals for sure that Bob Canoe is like, I want to help this guy, right? Uh and maybe I want to appear with him. I, you know, I want to be a booster. I want to, I want, I want this, and not he's not conflicted by the the resource issue. Yeah. What do you like? How can that relationship, how can he signal this is the most you know popular premiere in Canada, how can he use that to his advantage in the next little while? Specific, kind of a, if you were to think of a of a of an advent or an idea for him.

SPEAKER_05

Yeah, help me with your communication style, right? I think the the cool thing about Wob is um some may say he's pragmatic, but I don't think anybody's saying he's not progressive. Um Wob still has um, he still lives our values, he still fights for our values. He's not afraid to say the things that are maybe considered woke by others while still being pragmatic. He has an ability to um be um committed to the things, the values that make us new Democrats, while also communicating to regular folks why that's not a progressive thing, that's just being a good neighbor. You know what I mean? Like there, he has an ability to bring people in uh who may not agree with the 10-point plan. And that's what I would say. The the benefit of WAB, obviously, to to a lot of folks, the the credibility that WAB brings will be important to folks in the in the Ottawa bubble. But but outside of that, it's like, how can I take these bold ideas or the way that Avi likes to talk, which is maybe really great for a segment of our membership, but you know, if my mom and dad are watching TV at home, have no sweet clue what you're talking about, how do we take the the feeling of those ideas and communicate them in a way where my parents would would lean in and say, oh, that's a really good idea? I think Wob does that. So I think that that's uh an opportunity for for Avi and his team to maybe be inspired by some of that.

SPEAKER_07

And we saw Wob out already today having some fun around the around Avi's leadership. So, you know, maybe giving him some lessons there as well on how to talk to the public.

SPEAKER_03

What do you think? You'll get the CLC convention May the 12th or 15th. So it's um not very long, a few weeks, uh several weeks. Um what kind of you know, what kind of things do you think when he arrives there, might he want to be able to say that he's done and uh so that he's well, hopefully he'll be invited, greeted, embraced, and speak. Um but of course, you know, and it could be reception, there can be things to say, and there can be less things to say and more things to say, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, but first of all, protect Wab at all costs. Let's not make a bobbery out of him, keep him in the full. We want to keep him close because I have a big ambition for Mr. Watkins.

SPEAKER_02

Uh as does everybody else on this one ball, I think.

SPEAKER_06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

For uh for Mr. Um Yeah, for the CLC, I think it's a great opportunity to start mending the fences and bringing unity actions, uh, bringing the action to the words. What if at the CLC he announces his special advisor, labor advisor, Mr. Rob Ashton? He's gonna be my go-to guy for labor. He's gonna be the one going to talk to you guys, getting your information, your needs, what you guys want. And he's gonna be my direct link to labor. Something like that. We need something to shake up something to make sure that labor feels okay, we have somebody that we can talk to, we have a direct line and somebody that talks. Uh as you were you were, I think you were saying that uh uh previously, culturally, he understands us and we can talk to him. We don't need to put our uh uh you know gloves around him. We can we can be who we are and he understands us. I think something like that would be beneficial um to uh to to to you know to to revamp something. He has to do stuff. I'm a communication guy too, uh Melanie. So he has to do some stuff communicationly in the next few weeks because the wind is facing him right now. First day becomes leader, boom, Alberta, boom, Saskatchewan. Yeah, you know, it comes. And maybe in a month it's in Quebec. Oh, what are you gonna do in Quebec now that you're you know? So he has to answer all of these uh headwinds and try to judo that and and bring some positivity to it. And maybe if you cannot mend fences, because these are big issues. I'm talking about resource extraction, if you cannot do it right away in the short term, pivot to something else that people can grab onto. I think that the his whole uh uh uh plan on uh public participation, it's it's basically an old idea that's coming back uh you know to the forefront. But because it hasn't been talked about in a while, we need more details. We need to know how we talk about it, how does it work? I remember in 2015, I think it made the it made the cut, the platform cut, but I'm not sure. We were suggesting to put a no-frill option for a cellular option, like a$15 cellular option to to compete against the telecom and have a public option. It was uh a la mode public option, Obama did his public option, or didn't do his public option, but tried to do it. So we too we tried to do a public option, but maybe it's something like that. But you have to be uh because it's such big items. Oh, we're gonna be uh uh uh we're gonna be participating in a pipeline now, in in a mine, in a telecom. Well, it's going in a grocery store. How does it gonna work? So maybe put some uh some meat around that bone and so that people can start debating that. And so, oh, maybe that's uh that that could be called because we're in a context right now where we can we can debate those big ideas. Not only the international context, but the whole world is changing, but also the level of support of the NDP right now allows them to play with those ideas, and maybe one catches on and and it becomes nobody likes telecoms, nobody likes the big banks. So if you start with that, I think it's a good start.

SPEAKER_03

It's hard to go wrong on certain things, right? But what about a Western candidate? Is there a way to uh as uh his fruit says to judo it? I didn't know that was a verb, but that's cool. Is there a way to judo it with Carla and with uh Naheed next in the next two months, say?

SPEAKER_04

In the next two months, that feels pretty tough, right? Like I think what he needs to do, maybe I'll start where Mel started a little bit easier, which is like he should start to think through a map to soften his positions on some things or a way to find uh a place that everyone can kind of agree to disagree. And and right now it's too far away. So so I would work on that uh pretty quick if I were him. I think what might help both uh the West and Labor is uh a bit of that and also find something big and exciting that you can champion on behalf of labor that takes the attention away from the areas we disagree and and breathes some energy into something that we can all get behind. I think that's probably a good first move for him, given that the other is going to be trickier to untangle.

SPEAKER_07

I mean, I sort of think about having worked with Leighton in in 04 when I was director in BC, and just what we had to do was so hands-on every day, thinking about his schedule when he got into BC. And it was it was maximizing his time, but a lot of that was also so strategic about getting into some of these writings, helping them fundraise, but at the same time identifying potential candidates, volunteer mobilization, like just being hands-on. And, you know, Jack, when he wasn't have a seat, had more time to do that. Also, very limited resources because I had to drive him around in my beat up civic. He didn't have staff, right? We weren't fancy on buses, but it was so concerted to just do the work, get to editorial boards, have the conversations, but so much was writing focused on what they needed to get ready because we need those candidates in place. We need a you know, better result, of course, than last time, but they need. money and and I think this campaign also promised more um freedom for writing associations to go in they're gonna have to start to enact that because they don't really have a big runway till a federal election for some of that work.

SPEAKER_04

I like that I I feel like that's a little bit in the same vein in that the principle there is to offer first ask second. And I think that can strengthen the relationship with labor also with the DPs also with the provinces also with the members right what can you offer how can you show up as a service and then we build loyalty and and movement power from there.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah no we got a plane to ask you got a plane to ask all right well the planes today all the planes so we're gonna have to wrap it it's been great to have everybody here yeah thanks so much yeah yeah we'll get you all you're working hard on we this is fun our first ever panel so that was that was a fun thing to do thank you everybody maybe we should do something for the CLC we'll see yeah okay talk scene to someone bye everybody thanks for joining left east to west with hosts Nikki Hill and Tom Parkin.

SPEAKER_01

We'd love to hear your comments ratings follows and shares it helps people find us to become a left east to west community member and to help us reach even more Canadians subscribe using the link in the show notes. You can watch us on YouTube or listen wherever you get your favorite podcasts. Just search for Left East to West and subscribe I'm Doug Hamilton signing off for Left East to West