Devin McKnight of Maneka

On this episode I start a series working with Topshelf Records, who hooked me up with Devin McKnight (Speedy Ortiz, Grass is Green, and Philadelphia Collins) about his band Maneka. 

We talk about growing up in the suburbs, transitioning from high school sports into playing music, and how do you convince your parents that a career in music is actually possible. 

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:15

Hey, welcome to Hate Smile. Ooh, nailed the intro right off the bat. Welcome to Hey Smiling Strange podcast where I talk to people about music. Hopefully. Sometimes other things. I I sometimes can't stay on track. But uh the intro music, which I've forgotten to shout out in the last couple podcasts, brought to us by the band How Strange It Is. Go check them out. Uh thanks again for letting us use the music there, Jordan. And uh this is a a fun little episode. Uh for the next couple of weeks. I'm gonna be working with Top Shelf Records on uh I believe it's their 20th anniversary and just trying to, you know, work with them to promote some of their uh catalog, their library, some of the stuff that's coming out on that label. Uh and they hooked me up here with Devin McKnight of the band Monica. I said that right. Uh you just told me the name of the band, and I'm hoping I said that right. But uh Devin, how you doing?

SPEAKER_00 1:04

You got it. Um doing good. Um I didn't realize Top Shelf was twenty years old, but uh I know, almost old enough to drink. Almost, almost. Yeah. Um but yeah, no, I'm I'm doing good. I'm just uh at my at my homework. Nice situation. And where's home for you, man? Uh Philadelphia. Nice. West Philadelphia.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Are you from Philadelphia originally or you you just moved there?

SPEAKER_00 1:39

No, I'm from DC. Oh. Um I lived in New York for nearly a decade, and then um, you know, um, as a lot of people uh kind of got priced out after the pandemic. Yeah. And I got a job here. So um this is where I am.

SPEAKER_02 1:58

Nice, man. How you like in Philly so far? I know a bunch of people that have moved from Portland out to Philly, some of them came back, but uh I liked it. I was there for the first time last year, just uh well stopped on a tour, but uh it's it's a nice place. Uh a lot of the people out there are super friendly.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

Yeah, yeah. It's um it's a good it's a good place to live. I mean uh you know it's um it's different in some ways, but you know, because I've just sort of always lived on the East Coast in these in and around these cities, it's um you know, pretty uh easy for me to plug and play there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 2:43

It is nice. That's the one thing, uh just East Coast cities, man. Like you're so close to all the other cities. If you're in Philly, you could be in New York in a couple of hours, and it's like out here on the West Coast, it's just everything's an island. It's uh it feels like death stranding sometimes.

SPEAKER_00 2:59

Yeah, yeah, that is a thing, especially with touring. Um, I mean it's nice, like some some uh bands still like hit me up thinking I'm a New York band. And um at first I at first I didn't correct though, and I was just like, sure, I'll play. And then I was like, uh we we don't want this to become a thing. You know, and so um but yeah, you know, it's the type of thing where you go up for two hours or you know, drive up the the two hours, and then um the way home after the show is just too short not to drive back. So you know, we usually just come back night off.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

Honestly, that sounds kind of nice, you know. I uh I got a show coming up in a couple of weeks in Seattle, and it's like the start of some tour, and my thought process is like, yeah, it's only two, three hours, finish the show, drink a Red Bull, cruise back home, sleep in your own bed. Sleep in your own bed is just such a vibe, man. It's uh honestly one of my great one of my like joys at this point.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

But uh Yeah, I mean it's just calling you, you know, you can feel it.

SPEAKER_02 4:03

No. And the funny thing is too, it's like I sleep on my you know I got a dog, he just pushes me over. We got a king-sized bed, it's me and my wife and my dog. Dog takes up more room than I do at this point, but it's like now I'm like if I have actual freedom, if I'm like in a hotel bed, there's too much room for me. It freaks me out.

SPEAKER_00 4:19

Yeah. Well, that's usually the opposite problem, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 4:23

Oh, you'd think, man, you'd think, but I don't know. You get used to things pretty quick. But uh, yeah, man, uh I I did not know much about your music until uh Top Shelf turned me on to it, and I've just been cruising through it. Uh I listened to your first uh album today, and then uh the one that's coming out soon, or is that it's already out, right? The the newest one. Uh yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

Yeah, it's already out.

SPEAKER_02 4:46

Nice, yeah, man. Uh when did you get started doing music? How what's uh let's uh let's go back to the beginning. What's your very first memory of being alive, and then every memory you've had since then condensed to an hour-long podcast.

SPEAKER_00 4:58

Oh yes. Um first moment being alive.

SPEAKER_02 5:04

This was an icebreaker I used to use in uh when I worked at a psych hospital, and then I realized that a lot of people's first memories are kind of bad stories, so I stopped using it as an icebreaker. But if you want to tell, like uh I'm always interested.

SPEAKER_00 5:18

You know, I mean at this point I do remember preschool.

SPEAKER_02 5:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:25

Do remember preschool. Um and I remember it just being like super easy and just being like praise everything. You're just like, wow, this is pretty great. Like, I don't know what everyone's complaining about. This life thing is kind of town.

SPEAKER_02 5:45

You know, when I was listening to your music, I was like, this is a guy that really nailed preschool. Like he Jeff definitely dominated the preschool classroom scene, would be my guess.

SPEAKER_00 5:55

Yep. Yep, so much so that they started me in kindergarten early. Oh man. And yeah, then it's downhill from there, you know.

SPEAKER_02 6:04

It's uh it's always a weird thing because it's like they want to bump you up early, right? But then I don't know, being like the youngest and smallest person in the classroom all the time's gotta be fucking awful. Like I was taller than most of the people in my class because the way it worked out, I was like one of the older ones. And I gotta tell you, for sports purposes, phenomenal to be older than everybody else that you're playing against. It's wild.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

It really is, and a year makes a big difference when you're a kid. But I um yeah, you know, I wasn't necessarily the smallest person, but yeah, I was like growing up, even like through high school, it's like all the all the major landmark things, like you know, all my friends would, you know, I mean it's not like they would like be like super mean to me or anything, but they would like make fun of me because they could drive sooner, they could buy alcohol sooner, they could buy cigarettes, you know, just like stuff like that, and it was just a constant reminder of like, oh yeah, I'm a young little bitch. Uh but it's interesting though, is like I always had friends in the in the c in the class behind me.

SPEAKER_01 7:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:17

So, you know, I could uh I could uh relate to them in our you know born in 1986.

SPEAKER_02 7:26

Uh let's go, child of the 80s, baby. I'm uh December of 1989 is my birthday. And so I'm like, I technically I squeezed in, didn't even get a full month of the 80s, but I love telling people oh I'm an 80s kid, you know?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

80s um to bring it back to music. I actually um when I was six, I started playing guitar at like the local music store. And um yeah, you know, I mean I was six, so yeah, that's he he really only was able to get a little bit out of me. Um you know I I had this dinky little like nylon string guitar. Um you know, my dad ha used to ha have to help me tune it every single time. And um, you know, it was like my hands were too small. Yeah. Um you know, my parents have this video of me at like a talent show playing this like little shitty song. I don't remember what it was. But um, you know, I mean I you know you brought up sports, like I I played with sports and was like somewhat of a sports fanatic. And so, you know, that's how I got all the energy out. And um, I didn't really see music as like a an outlet in that way. Um so you know, I just um quit when I was like eight. And uh yeah, my parents were kind of just like, you know, my mom doesn't like clutter, so she was like, you know, you haven't touched this guitar in forever, blah blah blah, like what do you really want to do? Like, so you know, I was like, I'm good, I'm good on that. And so uh Yeah, it wasn't until we moved to the suburbs and like you know, I started learning uh just like music outside of like my my home. Or listening to the radio on my own or watching MTV on my own.

SPEAKER_01 9:38

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

Cause you know, I mean that was summer summer vacation was just like MTV would just be on all day. Oh, yeah. They would always play music videos and that was cool.

SPEAKER_02 9:49

Yeah, that is still cool. I just watch music videos sometimes in the background, and like every time I'll like try to find some compilation of a bunch of you know early MTV stuff, and I'm just like, I don't know. There's plenty of brain rot out there. Music videos seem like a pretty good version of brain rot, you know. It's no tongue tongue tongue soror or whatever, but uh it's still pretty good.

SPEAKER_00 10:09

It really it really is like uh low effort TV programming. Yeah. Like it doesn't take much, and I uh I stand by that it it it just seems like a silly thing not to really have now.

SPEAKER_01 10:26

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:27

Because it's just so easy. It's like a lower. Just get twenty of them and press play and just chill.

SPEAKER_02 10:34

I like I mean, uh we the only thing we're really paying for in the house right now is the YouTube premium thing, so we don't have YouTube ads, and it's like you can make your own MTV pretty quick. You just like pile together a bunch of live concert footage, a lot of music videos. Uh and it's nice. It's nice in the background, it's like just entertaining enough. There's also like, I don't know, there's a lot of stuff where I'm one of those people I kinda always have to have noise going on in a room that I'm in, because you know, you can't be alone with the thoughts, obviously. That would drive you crazy. Uh so having something like a music video where it's like if I, you know, want to drift off for a second, I have something to look at, but it's not gonna like really change my thoughts. If I'm still like working on a thought, you know, trying to figure something out. I can watch the music video, it's not gonna be like demanding my attention for plot or anything like that. The other thing I watch is this dude plays Settlers of Catan online, but I'm you know a really cool, not dorky person myself.

SPEAKER_00 11:29

I mean, it's you know, Settlers is great. Um I don't know if I'd watch somebody else play it, but it's a great game.

SPEAKER_02 11:36

Shout out the Phantom Catan. He plays uh 1v1 Settlers of Catan. He's great, man. Uh oh. I'm I'll I'll gladly give him a shout-out for whoever's listening to this thing, but uh he's my boy. Um Let's see. Uh so yeah, you said you you started getting into music as you got out into the suburbs, you started picking up on uh you kind of took ownership over what you were listening to for the first time. What was it that kind of uh broke you out? Because, you know, I remember me personally, there was like a moment I I got Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Man from my parents' CD collection, and I like put it on, I put on the song She's Leaving Home. It was like the first time it sounded like music. Before it was all just background noise. That was the first time it like hit me over the head and it like kind of changed the course. I mean, there's there's a direct line from that song to this podcast right here, obviously. Did you have a moment like that yourself or was it more gradual?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

Um well, you know, I mean you kinda gotta like consider also like as an eight-year-old, like, I'm not really like allowed to to listen to certain things. Um but I think like um, you know, like my parents didn't like listen to like rock music, for instance. So like um they um well let's see. I I heard uh um bullet with butterfly wings on the radio.

SPEAKER_02 13:09

That's a big one.

SPEAKER_00 13:10

And I was like I was like, what the fuck is this? You know, just like these sounds like sonically, I was just kind of like blown away. Um which is like an odd thing again for an eight-year-old to hear and um but then um I actually just mentioned this and like I I did like a 10 Essential Albums thing.

SPEAKER_02 13:34

Oh nice.

SPEAKER_00 13:35

And as trite as it is, uh Nevermind uh was huge. Uh my brother bought the tape.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

Never mind on tape, baby. Let's go.

SPEAKER_00 13:47

Yeah, the tapes, the the tapes were cheaper, so you could just go to like, you know, the store and you know, it might cost you seven dollars, and that's like an allowance.

SPEAKER_01 13:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:58

And uh yeah, I just I never gave it back. I just kept it. It was just like I was like hooked, hooked on I just didn't really think like because I heard like rock sounds from like Michael Jackson, um Janet Jackson, um my dad had that Living Color record, and he would play that a lot. Uh Prince had some rock sounds in it, but um, yeah, I just had heard that as sort of like this like adjacent thing sonically, and then when I sort of heard the genre, I was like, oh, this is a whole last thing, and like um, you know, it it was it was confusing, you know, like you know, I'm a young black kid in in the in the suburbs, and I'm just kinda like, well, I uh you know, this stuff's pretty cool. Um but you know, I mean the other black kids weren't really listening to that either, so um, it was a little alienating at times, but um there is that and then there is um I got my mom to take me to whatever place where we bought music, and then I bought Green Day Dookie. Yeah. And then she um insisted that I put it on on the car on the way home. I s I swear, when we got to Longview, I was just like, holy shit, like I didn't even know this song existed. Like she was like, what is this? Like, da-da-da-da-da, you know. He said like fuck and shit within like seconds.

SPEAKER_02 15:42

That was a big deal back in the day, too. Like nowadays, all the kids have the internet, so they they've heard all the swear words, but back in the day, like I still don't say uh the F word in front of my mom. I'm not gonna do that, you know? I'm her baby boy.

SPEAKER_00 15:57

It took me a while. Yeah, it took me a while. But um, yeah, yeah. So I mean, you know, though, you know, those are like pretty those are pretty big for for for anybody in that period of time. Um and you know, I'm glad that I sort of found those pretty quickly. And um, and then you know, in this in the suburbs, like every kid has like a squire stratocaster in the corner.

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Yeah, they just like come with uh wallpaper or something with that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 16:29

Yeah. And so after a while, you know, once I got to middle school, I started realizing that some of my friends were taking guitar lessons and like there are whispers of people starting bands and stuff like that. I was like, hold on a second. Wait a minute. You can do that kind of thing.

SPEAKER_02 16:50

It is wild to like go from hearing it to being like, wait a minute. It is just like a couple of power chords, and it's a wild experience to like feel the magic or whatever.

SPEAKER_00 17:01

Yep, so I uh sort of worked up the courage to you know ask my dad if I could go go back into guitar a little bit. And by this time I was like sort of high school, like ninth grade, and then um, you know, I mean I I I still was playing a lot of sports. So it was just like whenever I could. Yeah. Um and yeah, I was just kind of teaching myself there was this kind of like um I guess you wouldn't call it an app, but it was um it it was some kind of program that had tabs. It was like a library of tabs, and then I, you know, it was pretty because I had already played when I was a a little little kid, it was pretty easy for me to just you know figure out the power chords.

SPEAKER_02 17:57

That's huge. So just having like some dexterity in that situation, uh because that first six months is rough.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, yeah. So so I I kind of skipped the first three months, let's say, of struggle. Um, and then like, you know, before you knew it, I was playing part of everything Zen, you know, on guitar. Um and um, you know, like Machine Head and stuff, and like um, you know, I mean that was satisfying. Um there's a whole thing once you're in high school though, it's like um people sort of I identify with like I don't know, groups or clicks or whatever, and like not that my high school was especially like that, but it it existed. So like a lot of my friends were punks, you know, a lot of my friends were like, you know, just into weird stuff like in in uh high school band stuff like that, and um, you know, I was on the football team.

SPEAKER_02 19:04

Yeah, that's gonna be a whole different genre of music right there.

SPEAKER_00 19:07

Yeah. Well, you know, I mean I listened to like tons of rap and tons of just you know, I mean, the the team was like 90% black, so like, you know, I got all of that, you know, as well. Yeah. But, you know, I just um I didn't really have a lot of friends, you know, on the teams that I played on. And so, you know, when I left practice, I went and hung out with my nerdy will. You know, kind of.

SPEAKER_02 19:40

Yeah, you're upstanding uh young citizens, right?

SPEAKER_00 19:43

Yeah, and some of them had like really shitty punk bands and stuff like that. And um yeah, so you know, they wouldn't like really get to the point where they would like see me as somebody that played one of the instruments. Um because, you know, I guess that was for the people that like, you know, wore the Liberty Spikes and uh leather jackets and stuff, but um they let me and my two friends like rap in their bands.

SPEAKER_02 20:21

That's cool.

SPEAKER_00 20:22

And then that turned into a whole thing.

SPEAKER_02 20:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 20:25

And we were actually like pretty good. Um and then um, you know, life happens, and then we started another band.

SPEAKER_02 20:38

Well, just that that was actually that first moment you get where you're like, oh hey, this is actually pretty I remember like uh listening on uh like phone recordings to my brother and I like jamming on something and listening back and being like, that was pretty good. Listening back now, it's like it's not really that good, but like the first moment you hear it as good is another one of those things where it's just like that is a great feeling. I fucking love that. You know?

SPEAKER_00 21:03

Yeah, this is coherent, this like is like translatable, like other people are like, Well, this doesn't completely suck, and you get and you guys are in tune.

SPEAKER_02 21:13

This doesn't completely suck takes a tremendous amount of work, you know? You don't just roll out of bed and not completely suck.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you know, we're still at the age at that point where we were like, you know, one of the like uh wealthier kids had a PA system and we uh we kind of stole it from them. So we could have practice. And um it's borrowed. We gave it back.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

It's borrowed, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:42

Yeah, it was borrowed for a long time, but it was borrowed. Yeah, it was a community PA.

SPEAKER_02 21:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:48

It's a contribution then w once we um figured out what we were doing later in high school, um, you know, we had people in our band that like you know invested time. And money into equipment and stuff like that, so we didn't have to steal it anymore.

SPEAKER_02 22:04

It's so much cooler when you do though. I mean, I just uh I I learned how to play the drums entirely up by like breaking into practice spaces or like borrowing people's kits and stuff like that. It wasn't until I was twenty five that I actually had a drum set, but I've been playing for years at that point. It's just I don't know. I think there is something uh there's something about like punk and rock and roll or whatever that kind of screams like just figure out a way to do it, just be totally pragmatic about it. If if this kid's letting us borrow the PA system, we're gonna make him ask for it back. That's all it is. Is like he can get it back whenever he wants, but he's gotta ask, you know.

SPEAKER_00 22:39

Yeah, and it's you know, it's not our fault he couldn't drive and come over and take it back.

SPEAKER_02 22:45

Yeah, get that license, kid.

SPEAKER_00 22:47

Yeah, he had to ask his mom to come over and uh in her BMW and put it in. No, I love I love him still. We're still friends. He's the man. That's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_02 23:00

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 23:01

But um, but yeah, so um all through high school, yeah, I was just kind of plucking around, you know.

SPEAKER_02 23:09

And uh I also played uh a lot of sports in high school, which is like now with the little people I hang out with out here in Portland, that to them is weird, and the people when I go back to the East Coast, they think it's weird that I play in bands and stuff like that. Like I don't know if this has changed that much with the younger generations, but like that what you're talking about, like my high school wasn't super clicky, but it was very definitively like if you liked this genre of music, if you were a sports kid versus like a band kid or something like that, like there were these much more rigidly defined lines, and I don't know if that's just like a developmental thing, that's like the first thing kids think of when they can start thinking about what other people like. Uh but like it did feel like a very strict line between like, oh, you play sports, you can't really be in a band, you're like a sports guy, you know.

SPEAKER_00 23:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean that that was basically the vibe, and uh I think what you're saying about the um sort of just the developmental, like, you know, our brains are not to the point where we like these these two or three things can coexist at the same time. That doesn't, you know, happen for us until like maybe college, I think.

SPEAKER_02 24:23

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:24

And so yeah, um I mean, you know, um my parents didn't know I was in a band until halfway through junior year in high school.

SPEAKER_02 24:34

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 24:35

Because I was they knew me as like the student athlete kid.

SPEAKER_02 24:39

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:40

And stuff like that, and I was like, oh, they're gonna think this is fucking weird or a waste of time. It turns out they were like, oh, that's pretty cool, man. That's awesome. You know. You know, I mean, I think um for them to take it seriously as like, oh, I want to do this with my life, that that took till, you know, college when I you know started practicing every day and you know, taking lessons and like getting better and stuff. Um but yeah, in the beginning they were like, huh, alright. At least I'm not like you know, like our friends, you know, like we weren't really into like like partying or like anything like that. Um like I like I think the worst thing that we did before like senior year was probably like vandalize stuff.

SPEAKER_02 25:32

Oh yeah, I stole a bunch of street signs back in the day, and just like if you found a butt if you found a thing of spray painting you're gonna spray paint something, you know? Uh the man with the hammer, everything's a nail, right?

SPEAKER_00 25:43

Yeah, and uh, you know, and then I think we had some paintball guns and stuff, and you know, we would go around with that.

SPEAKER_02 25:50

Gotta shoot people with paint. It's fun. It's incredibly fun. Like anyone that even the parents that are probably disciplining you for shooting paintballs at the things that you're not supposed to do, like they'll admit that it's fun as hell to do. It's like a jet ski, you know. It might be dumb, but it's great.

SPEAKER_00 26:06

We um yeah, I mean, we had a few people's parents threatened to call the police because we sh like, you know, paintballed their house for something, some stupid reason, you know. Ultimately, uh in a lot of cases, it was like this weird, like it was like a sign of affection. Yeah. For for certain friends. Yeah, I mean like we do so much that like we're gonna try to get your attention by paintballing your your front door.

SPEAKER_02 26:36

Dude, I think about that a lot as like a developmental thing as well. It's like when you first realize that like you can get attention that way, negative and positive, all you're reacting to is like the attention thing. I work with a lot of like middle schoolers every once in a while, and they'll say really mean things to you, and it's like, dude, they're just figuring out that when they say something mean, it'll have an effect on you, and all you all that you're getting is the attention. It's like I don't know. Being uh adult human is hard, just having thoughts in your head is is hard, and like it makes sense that there'd be some speed bumps in the way where the wires get crossed, and instead of just being like, Hey, do you want to hang out? You shoot paintballs at their door and it's fun, you know?

SPEAKER_00 27:15

Yeah. It's gonna get Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like I mean you kinda just want to see what happens if I do Or what happens when I don't do that, or what you know, so it's like you just kinda like try stuff out and then you know, um you hope that they can, you know, wash the egg or you know, clean ball off or or that they don't get in too much trouble. Um but um but yeah, you know, uh this is all to say that you know I think when my parents saw me and my friends playing in like a a band late in high school that like didn't suck and that like you know kids actually came to our shows and stuff like willingly. You know, they bought our crappy little demo CD that we made uh you know on our s CD burnout.

SPEAKER_02 28:13

Oh that's awesome, man.

SPEAKER_00 28:18

Yes, I mean burning CDs was the shit. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:20

But that's coming back. The kids love the burnt CDs now, like the CDs are back. They're off tapes now. Yeah. At least in Portland. Alright. So I'm done. Yeah, right? Nothing like fishing under the seat of uh your friend's car, just like trying to find a CD and then looking on the back, seeing all the scratch marks and like keeping your fingers crossed and it still works. Ooh.

SPEAKER_00 28:40

Yeah. Uh yeah, but um, you know, they saw that I was like doing something that was like semi positive and not like you know being a shithead. I think for them they were kind of like, alright, that's better than a lot of things he could be doing. So as long as he doesn't like fail out of school or do something stupid or you know, get arrested or whatever, then you know, setting the bar real high there, I guess.

SPEAKER_02 29:10

Hey, listen, man, that that sounds like uh good parenting goal to set is just like listen, keep him out of jail, make sure he's not uh wasting his life entirely. It sounds like you're the kind of guy too where it's like you wanted to do a lot of stuff. You talked about sports as like it is an energy sink, it just like focuses a ton of energy into a very like narrow point. And then for me a lot of things that was weird is like I played you know high-level competitive youth sports or whatever all the way through college, and then one day it just stops. And now the thing that I missed was that event calendar of like, oh, on Wednesday we have a game, so we're gonna practice before that, and then Wednesday will be the game, and the whole day of Wednesday will be about that. And it was only like getting back into bands and stuff and being like, oh, we have a show on Saturday, we're gonna practice on Tuesday, and like getting that rhythm back, just having those moments that kind of mark your calendar is like that Saturday is gonna be a special day. It's like that was huge for me, you know. It keeps me organized, keeps me focused, keeps me like locked in. Uh, you find a similar thing with like uh did you transition out of sports and into music in high school?

SPEAKER_00 30:15

Was this in college or um yeah, it was pretty much immediately in in college because I um you know I decided not to play in college and um you know I I suddenly didn't have anything to like do.

SPEAKER_02 30:33

It's immediate. It's immediate. You go from doing this all the time to like, oh, I'm just free? Oh, what do I do?

SPEAKER_00 30:40

Yeah. Looking back on it, I probably shouldn't have just like completely stopped. So like, you know.

SPEAKER_02 30:47

Yeah, what can you do?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

Yeah, I mean, you know, what can't you do?

SPEAKER_02 30:51

It was gonna stop at some point anyway, you know. It's it's kinda you can't be like, I'm gonna play half the games this season coach, you know.

SPEAKER_00 30:59

Yeah. Well my thing was it's like it I just didn't like it mattered so much more to the people that kept going. Yep. And you know, this is my time. It was like, you know what, I can't like go to parties with my friends, I can't be traveling all the time and be working out, and it's like not like I'm gonna go to the NFL or anything, like, you know, so it's just kind of like, damn, like, I mean, this is cool. It'd be cool to say that I'm doing this, but at the same time, like, you know, do I really like it that much, or do I do I want some like jerk coach?

SPEAKER_02 31:41

Some of them are real jerks, man.

SPEAKER_00 31:43

Some of them really suck. They're not like good people, and they have control over you. And to me, it was kind of just like, you mean there's an option where I don't have that? And so then I was kind of like, when I figured that out, I was kind of like, well, you know, maybe I'll just go to a state school and like chill, you know? And so then like I had it, I still had the guitar, and then you know, I was it it it was a rocky road, but I uh, you know, started started figuring it out, uh, started asking questions, you know, started um meeting other people that played and seeing what they did, and then started taking lessons, and um, you know, um I got to the point where uh by the end of college I was sort of like, why am I in college? I should just go to like music school or I should do something more with this because you know I'm actually getting pretty good and like sports sports helped me like understand like practice. Yeah. Like you were talking about, just like having the discipline to sit down with something like every day and do it.

SPEAKER_02 32:52

Just how much work it takes to like actually get good at you know, you can hit a shot if you're talking basketball or something, like you hit a three-pointer, hitting it in a game when there's pressure and you have to hit it, that takes a ton more practice and like just having that mentality of like, oh, if I actually want to do this, like I gotta like you were saying, you you started practicing every day. I feel like that's like I don't know, that's the way you gotta do it if you're gonna try to be, you know, where you're at, is like you gotta take yourself seriously, and part of that is just it is discipline. It you know, I I guess people don't talk about that too much with art because they want it to be like pure inspiration, but it's like inspiration plus discipline, man.

SPEAKER_00 33:30

Yeah. I mean I had some friends in high school, like you know, a lot of the friends that I played in bands with that were like pretty good at like drums and guitar and bass and stuff, like I'd be hanging around them and seeing like what they were doing and like how they got from point A to point B. And that's sort of laid a little bit of a f a framework or like a reference point so I could be like, oh, like you know, um if I want to get faster at picking, then I I probably shouldn't only do downstrokes, or like, you know that that guy looks like he knows a few skills, maybe I should like see what those are, yeah. Kind of thing. And so, you know, I was able to kind of like draw from my experiences there, um, you know, tuning. I understood that from the jump, so I didn't have to worry about that. Um stuff like that um made it easier for me to kind of jump in full steam, you know. Um and then um, yeah, I I actually by the end of college, my um, you know, my parents were like, you're not dropping out of college to go be a musician. Like that's stupid. Like But they were like, if you finish college, then we'll we'll talk. Nice. So then like I finished college and then I got I got into Berkeley and then I went there for two years. Nice. And then I dropped out.

SPEAKER_02 34:59

Yeah, but dropping out of Berkeley is rock and roll. You know, that's like that's pretty that's pretty punk.

SPEAKER_00 35:05

I mean, yeah, we had we had like things to do. You know, we were touring and like you know, and honestly, like I met everyone that I know now in my life from that experience. And you know, I didn't um I didn't go into to debt immediately. And if I had gone back, I would have started having to take out like massive loans.

SPEAKER_02 35:31

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 35:32

And so I always look back at that as being like this like really important financial decision that really wasn't based in a lot of like thought. Oh but like I'm like wow, good thing I did do that. Because the friends that I have that that stayed all four years, I mean, they they were like working jobs they didn't want to do because they were paying back loans and they're like these brilliant musicians, and I'm like, wow, I I really dodged a bullet there.

SPEAKER_02 35:59

Um I mean so debt is everything right now. It's like uh most of my free time reading is is kind of spent uh economist Michael Hudson, he just he has like four books on the history of debt going back to like Mesopotamia, and it's like uh because you know, your story right there, it's like you know, just staying out of debt gives you the freedom to do things, and it's like it doesn't really matter how good these other people were at their instrument, how much they could potentially give other people with their talents or whatever. It's like shit, man, you got interest, and that interest will accumulate, so uh pour the coffee or whatever. I don't know what it's gonna be, but they gotta do something to pay off that debt just so they can do stuff that they're already capable of doing. It's wild, man. It's a wild concept.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

Yeah, yeah, and it all depends on like, and I think Berkeley has expanded their curriculum since. Um because they're they're they're probably getting a lot of flack for like, oh, this like degree you sold me on isn't actually like leading to anything. Yeah, so like trying to find more jobs for the kids to do when they graduate was a big thing. Um but when I was there they hadn't really figured any of that out. Um yeah, so I you know, I've got like three or four friends um that started working in immediately after graduation in like the industry, but they were all like freaks. They were all like freakishly awesome at all music and recording, just like two of my friends, they became film scores and like people, but they were just like the people that would like play stuff, and you're just like, How do you just like know that? And they're like, I don't know, I'm figuring it out in in real time. You know, they're just like that. They placed out of all the class, you know, yeah classes, and it was just effortless for them to do everything, and you know, there's only three or four of those guys though.

SPEAKER_02 38:01

Yeah. That's that's one of those things that I remember thinking, like I learned a lot from sports, was just like one, there's levels to this shit. You know, you might think you're good. I was uh in high school, you know, our team was doing okay in basketball or whatever, and then all of a sudden we played a team in uh this dude Shabazz Napier, who was drafted into the NBA through windmill dunks and warm-ups, and I was like, oh, okay, alright. Yeah, no, I'm not playing college basketball. That's just not gonna happen.

SPEAKER_00 38:29

So Where is this in the country?

SPEAKER_02 38:31

This was in Massachusetts. So I didn't realize he was from Yukon and then uh uh what's funny is like you are probably the only person I've talked to in the last uh five years that knows who's your baz Napier is everybody out here that in Portland they don't really know.

SPEAKER_00 38:48

Oh yeah. I'm I'm a basketball uh freak. I just like I mean I played, but I wasn't like on you know it it was always football on track for me, but I basketball's just so easy to pick up and play.

SPEAKER_02 39:00

It's like it's always happening. You can just go to the park, you know?

SPEAKER_00 39:03

Yeah. There's there's that, and then like just the history of the sport, like the 90s were this like golden age, and then after that, there's just so much to know. Oh yeah. Like, you know, have you ever seen the memes of like people talking about like guys will just go to a bar and start naming athletes from like the year 1997 or something like that? 100%. I could do I could do that and be so content with my night, you know. It's really uh Shaz Napier is on my radar.

SPEAKER_02 39:38

Yo, shout out Shaz Napier. That was uh you were the best person I saw as a high schooler, uh and just he looked like he was flying, man. It's wild how much how athletic. And that's the thing, is like we're talking sometimes people have like an innate music talent where it's just they put a couple things together and you realize like maybe they're thinking about it a different way, maybe they're just sort of like naturally attuned to like make stuff happen with their hands or something. At a certain point, you kind of just throw your hands up and just go, it's just talent. This guy's just got some innate talent to it, and I can either be mad at it, and God knows I've spent a lot of time being very mad at talented people because it's like, man, I want that, right? Love to be able to jump that high. But like, you know, the older you get, the more you just realize, like, dude, it's just it is what it is. There's goods and bad things that happen when you are that talented, you know. Sometimes you get stuck doing stuff you maybe don't love just because you're good at it. But it's like it is wild to just be able to appreciate somebody that it's like, man, this guy is killing it right now. This is wild, this is brand new to me. I I can't even imagine what he's gonna do next, you know.

SPEAKER_00 40:39

Yeah. I mean, I I uh senior in high school, I played against uh Vernon Davis.

SPEAKER_02 40:45

Oh, let's dude. We should just name a bunch of sports players. This is a fun game. Vernon Davis, let's go!

SPEAKER_00 40:53

Yeah, he was just like uh like a man child, you know. Um he ended up going to Maryland where I I I went to college.

SPEAKER_02 41:02

Oh, nice.

SPEAKER_00 41:02

And I was just watching watching him just like destroy destroy D1 people.

SPEAKER_02 41:08

Like And you were expected to play him in high school. That's wild.

SPEAKER_00 41:13

Yeah, and he I mean, you know, he was like that to everybody though. He was like just ripped, just huge, and that's when you sort of see like uh oh, it's a good thing that I'm good at other stuff, because this guy is a freak of nature, and um, you know, that's okay. And you know, as as far as the music stuff, like you meet those people, especially at a music school, yeah, Berkeley. You meet those people every day, every every day. Somebody is good at something, like really good at something that you're not, and you you know, in your in your town where you grew up, like you might have been like the best at whatever it is that you do, but you go there and everyone else is was the best at whatever it is that they did. And the humility that you have to have to like not let that sh shatter your self-image takes a lot. You know, you kind of have to realize, okay, well, like they do that really, really well, but I can do this just because like they can play every instrument and like they have perfect pitch doesn't mean that I can't be in a band or like go on tour or like be successful. So, you know, you kind of gotta like see see where you can fit in and carry that as far as you can go. And um, you know, I think like um just like working at it and like you know, I used to do this sort of thing, like you know, I'm I'm sure you watched The Last Dance. Of course, yeah. And like how Michael Jordan used to just like make up enemies.

SPEAKER_02 42:59

Hey man, spite is a powerful motivating force. I love spite.

SPEAKER_00 43:03

Yeah, so I think a lot of that for a long time was like, you know, we keep the fire burning. Yeah. And I I would um, you know, just just try really hard, and then I realized like, oh, I have some natural talent as well. And you know, I've got something to work with, so like, you know, I'll just see how far this takes me. And um, you know, um, I think I'm doing alright, you know, like I'm no uh I don't know, I can't even think of like the the big name person in Indy Rodney.

SPEAKER_02 43:34

It's all Cameron Winter, man. It's all Cameron Winter. He's got the unlock.

SPEAKER_00 43:38

But yeah, we I actually taught uh one of the one of the geese guys.

SPEAKER_02 43:44

Well nice. They seem like nice kids, I think. I'm sure they're nice kids. I don't I don't know enough about 'em. I feel like there's a lot of talk about 'em right now, and it's like, dude, they're kids, man. Let them let 'em just be. They'll be fine. Whatever geese is, is whatever geese is gonna be, you know.

SPEAKER_00 43:58

Yeah, it's a lot. It's a lot. Um and I think it's it's a lot 'cause it's you know, they're they're Gen Z and they're kind of like confusing everybody right now. Like their identity and like what they are and what it means. Um and you know, I'm I'm gonna be honest, like I don't really completely get it, but I also think like that's what that's okay. Like it doesn't they're like pieces of shit or anything. It's just like I maybe it's just not for me, and that's fine. That's okay.

SPEAKER_02 44:33

You know, uh like yeah, they they got plenty of talent, they they seem like nice kids. I sing versions of their songs to my dog where I just changed a lot of the words to be about my dog, and that's sort of how I realized I kinda like that it was catchy, you know. Uh yeah, but like uh you're you're talking about like when you one of the first things you got was Nirvana, Nevermind, on uh uh a cassette, right? And I remember uh some quote I read, because I I read you know books on Nirvana back in high school because I was a dork too. Uh and he always talked about it, it's like, dude, I'm writing the music for the kids. Like I'm writing my songs, I'm writing for the version of me that wanted to learn how to play the guitar, you know? Like, and I'm like, dude, I think that's fine. I think Geese kind of does that too. They're Gen Z doesn't have the relationship to genre that millennials and Gen X had. Like, we we we were talking about it earlier, like it was pretty rigid, whereas like you weren't even allowed to like play sports and be in a band. And now these kids like they don't see any difference between lo-fi hip hop beats, uh hardcore music, and like vapor wave or something like that. You know, like that all this stuff is just yeah, it's all just in the ecosystem that they want to tap into. And it's like, cool, good for I'll I'm excited to see what they do. Even if they make something that all the kids like and I hate, it's like, well, that's the circle of life, man. That's the circle of life. I still got plenty of I will say, uh, having listened to your stuff, I'm a guy now, uh you know, I've listened, I I'm not gonna lie and say I've listened to the most music. Most of my friends have listened to more music than I have, but I've listened to a good amount, and it's hard for me to say that like, oh, this sounds like new to me. This sounds new and different. And listening to your album, it's like, man, you uh the only way I can describe it is like you go hard, man. There's a lot going on in these songs, they're loud. It just it it doesn't sound, but like every time I try to be like, well, what does this feel like to me as like a band or something like that? I can hear a bunch of different influences, but uh I don't know, do you feel like you put a lot of effort into coming up with a unique sound, or you focus more on like uh volume, noise? Like, what are you thinking about when you sit out to write a song? Uh and what sticks out when you do find something where you're like, oh, this is one that I'm gonna record. This is you know, this is a Monica song right here.

SPEAKER_00 46:58

Uh I mean, I yeah, that's kind of a loaded question. Uh I try to imagine what it would be like to play this in front of people.

SPEAKER_02 47:08

That's awesome. I think it's good to just remember that the audience is like, it's for the audience, you know? You're not just making it for yourself.

SPEAKER_00 47:16

Yeah. Well, yeah, and like, you know, I can't help it, but like, you know, maybe maybe this is the MTV in me, but like the way I consumed music back then was I could see the band and like see what they were doing. Even if they weren't literally playing, you know, I could envision like, oh, this is what this music is like. Or it's like, you know, if it's like uh Mary J. Blige, like, oh, she's like standing on a rooftop singing, it's like, okay, cool. Like, I I can connect you know the dots in my head. So for me, I was trying to imagine like, okay, so what is this gonna feel like to be presenting this? Is this gonna be like a chore to play live? Is this gonna be like boring? Is this gonna be fun? Is this gonna be this and that? And I think I I try to come at it from from that angle first, and then also like I try to just sort of like be like, do I do I like this? Like, yeah, because I don't want to come back in a year and be like, why did I you know what I mean? And just like be pissed at myself, and and I'm not I'm I'm not gonna say that hasn't happened.

SPEAKER_02 48:24

No, it's inevitable, it's inevitable. Even George Lucas doesn't even really like Star Wars, man.

SPEAKER_00 48:30

Come on, which is that's wild, you know. But yeah, it's like, you know, I'm constantly changing, but then you know, I'll like I'll log a lot of in my head, I'll log a lot of like um compliments and comments that I get on the road. Yeah. Um just seeing how different people respond to things, and I'm like, hmm, I guess that worked. You know, log that and then um, you know, when I'm because I I I have like a computer with like just a bunch of clips of riffs and parts and stuff, you know, stuff I would never use and then stuff that that is probably waiting to be used, and so you know when I ultimately I'm trying to like put something together, um yeah, it's like a like a confluence of like all those things I just mentioned. Um and um you know um I'm I'm going through the process right now actually of you know playing these songs out now for a year, even though the yeah the albums have been out for like a couple months. Um and there's some songs where I'm like I don't really like playing that. Yeah I think we don't need to do that. There's old songs where I'm like, oh yeah, like I missed that one. So um so yeah, I mean I don't know. Like I yeah, I just ultimately I would say the first thing is I just try to I try really hard to please myself.

SPEAKER_02 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Because this is the first band that I didn't have that was like so collaborative that I had to like pass a committee of opinions about like whatever the committee is me and oh yeah, you know, not that I need to be in control, but like because I am, like I need to first and foremost be the one that's like happy. So I try to just like use this as the outlet to like you know put the music in the world that like I want to see and I want to listen to. So um, so yeah, you know, I um with varying results, I think that that's what I'm doing.

SPEAKER_02 50:48

I like when uh like yeah, I feel like some people get self-conscious when they basically say it's like dude, I I'm the dictator of my own song, you know. Like I I want to have my project where I just make every individual choice, and it's like, well, dude, movies have directors for a reason, you know. If you're making one thing, having one vision for it is that generally tends to work. Yes, you can write songs as a committee, but like, I mean, even the Beatles, it was a John song, it was a Paul song, it was a George or Ringo song. Like, you know, you recognize that one person kind of represents the vision of the song, you're just doing this for yourself. Uh, and the two things that I picked up on on what you're just saying is like number one, uh it really speaks to the development of your taste in music as being part of you as a musician, right? Like, the more you've taken in, you decide like, oh, I like when this band does this, even saying like I have riffs that I know I'm not gonna use, but just because something about it I want to understand fully, uh I think that's really cool. And then ultimately, like um, I really like you talking about your relationship to feedback because I think that's one of the hardest things for a lot of people to do is to recognize that like you know uh playing with the audience is important, getting that feedback when they say this is good, um, when they say this is bad or something like that. Like my favorite uh Bill Hader uh is a director who did Barry and was on Saturday Night Live or whatever. And uh he has a quote where he's like, Yeah, whenever somebody says something doesn't work, I always take that really seriously. When they give me a fix for it, I never take that seriously because that's not their job. Their job is as an audience member to tell me when something doesn't work and it's my job to fix it. But like I like that idea of like you go seek feedback, somebody tells you it works, great, write it down, make sure that you're giving that to the audience because that's what they want. They tell you something doesn't work, you know. Alright, cool, back to the drawing board, I go figure out what what went wrong there. And sometimes you might just go, well, they were wrong. You know, the audience can be wrong. It's it's a balance between personal vision and collaborative with the audience stuff. And I feel like you have a cool, yeah, unique take on that.

SPEAKER_00 52:56

Well, for me too, um, you know, I have bandmates that like play with me live. Um, and I think, you know, as this project progresses, I'll I'll probably you know try to find people that can contribute writing and stuff more, just so like I don't have to carry as heavy of a load. Um but you know like a few of my old bands, like you know, Grass is green or uh um to a lesser extent speedy or tease, stuff like that, like you know, there's like four or five of us. And so if you do something and someone's like, that's like the coolest thing I've ever heard, and to you you're like what this this crap, you know, or like they hear like they they hear what you're working on over a certain part, and they're like, Are you sure about that? And I'm like, I don't know, you know, I'm just I'm just riffing over here, and then so ha having that kind of like feedback just in the room with you is really helpful, and not having that, um, you kind of gotta go all over the place to find that.

SPEAKER_02 54:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 54:11

So like I'll even like ask my my like family, like my parents and my brothers who listen to like completely different music.

SPEAKER_02 54:21

That's kind of nice though.

SPEAKER_00 54:22

Just to see what they think, because they're fresh ears, you know, they don't have a lot of they're not going off of a lot, so they can like just be like, oh, that was pretty catchy, actually, you know? Yeah. And I'm just like, okay, cool. I'm on something there. Just the average person who doesn't really care about this kind of music is like, uh yeah, I could fuck with that. Like, I can I kind of like that a lot.

SPEAKER_02 54:48

Um, so so yeah, you know, I'd I I try to, you know, take in as much critique and comments and stuff as I can, um, as I can handle, because sometimes you just there's limits to humility because it is like yeah, I always think of this thing where it's like you get humility from kind of being humiliated. We were talking about like people with talent earlier, and it's like watching somebody master something that you can't get your head around uh and you've been struggling with, that is a humiliation, even if nobody knows that you feel it internally. And you walk out of it feeling a little bit more humble or whatever, but I really do like that like you're engaged with people that aren't like fully engaged with the music that you're making. They they listen to other stuff, what I would just call kind of like normal people that are out there trying to get their feedback, because you know, I think it's really easy. Like if you're a writer, you could just write for other writers, a comedian that just writes jokes for other comedians, and I think there's something important about being like, no, you know, if you're trying to make uh some types of art, you're trying to make in a universal sense. You want it to have meaning for anybody, and that's how you get really like transformative stuff, though. It's like maybe somebody that listens to stuff that your brother likes, right? Stumbles upon your music and a song that your brother helped, like, he's like, Oh, I liked this riff or whatever, and this guy now listens to it, goes, Oh, I like it too. And now all of a sudden he's got a new entryway into a genre of music and a whole new world, and it's like I think that's really important.

SPEAKER_00 56:19

Yeah, yeah. Um, I remember uh the first track on Dark Matters, the record before this one. Um I used to live with my younger brother, and um this is like during the pandemic, I think, and um I had this riff um just like on loop. I was playing it pretty loud just to hear it loudly, you know, hear how that sounds. He was like passing through my room, and he was just like, Oh, what's that? That's pretty good. And uh the song is just one riff the whole time, it's just that riff. And a lot of people have told me like over the years, like that's my favorite one that you do. And I'm just sort of like, if I hadn't like, you know, if he wasn't in the room at that moment, that probably wouldn't have been a song. That's crazy.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Yeah, I think legally then this podcast can be used as evidence for why he should get royalties off the song. So I'm sorry to have to do that for you. But uh we will be representing him in the court case. He can get like five the you know, the five cents get the point zero zero zero zero one cent per play on uh what uh uh on streaming services.

SPEAKER_00 57:40

Yeah, I'm concerned with royalties at this point in my in my career. Uh whatever those amount to. But um but yeah, I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 57:51

Um yeah, man, it's uh it's been about an hour. I've that's usually what I like to keep it. Um thank you so much for uh all this. It's it's been really cool to get to know your music. Uh are you coming out to the West Coast anytime?

SPEAKER_00 58:05

I mean, I want to. It's just yeah, you know, how am I gonna do it? Um it's weird because like I'm I'm the only one in my band that has a flexible work situation.

SPEAKER_02 58:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 58:19

Um, so I mean, I actually was talking. Do you know the man Pyle?

SPEAKER_02 58:25

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Pyle's awesome.

SPEAKER_00 58:27

Yeah, um, I was talking to a few of them and and they kind of planted the seed, like, you know, well, maybe you should just go and tour by yourself and figure out how to make that work. And I don't know, maybe I could. I don't know.

SPEAKER_02 58:42

Dude, I feel like uh I feel like having talked to you for this uh you know the last hour or whatever, there's a part of you that seems like you like coming up uh the new challenge. So it's like try to figure out a solo set or something like that. There's I feel like there's a version of you that just sits in the lab for a week, tinkers around with a bunch of stuff, and comes out with something really cool. But you know, uh also too, also coming up to the West Coast is tough, man. Like we talked about. There's uh there's a lot of space out here. Uh, but uh do you have any shows coming up on the East Coast that you want to plug? Anything else uh you want to plug here at the end?

SPEAKER_00 59:17

Oh yeah. Well, uh yeah, we're we're opening for uh remember sports and cusp at the the church in Philly here um May 7th. Um I don't know if this podcast will be out by then, but I'll put I'll make hey listen, I'm in charge of it.

SPEAKER_02 59:38

I'll put it out before uh May 7th. That sounds good.

SPEAKER_00 59:42

Cool, yeah, yeah. I mean, that'll be a cool show. Um yeah, I'm excited for that one.

SPEAKER_02 59:48

Nice, man. Yeah, and uh let's see. Uh anything else, any they can check out your music anywhere. Where where do you prefer people get your music? You have like a band camp or something where where do you actually get some money if somebody bought an album?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:04

Probably uh probably band camp.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:08

I guess we should also plug top shelf records uh set this whole thing up.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:12

Or buy them or just buy them. The physical record probably goes the longest way right now. I'm not gonna lie.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:21

Yeah, and it's the of all the media to have the physical record's the best one. It looks the best, it sounds the best. You have this nice little record collection. I love going through people's record collections. So um for sure. Well, Devin, thank you so much for coming on, man. Uh it was really nice to get to know you. And uh if I'm ever out on the East Coast, I'll hit you up. I'll probably be in Philly at some point. Uh I'll have to buy you a cup of coffee or something.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:44

But uh, awesome, man.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:47

Well, thanks. Uh I don't really know. I usually just say podcasts, uh,