Hey Smiling Strange
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Hey Smiling Strange
Evan Cohen on Digital Art and Designing Band Posters
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Evan Cohen (@evanmcohen) joins the podcast to talk about his viral artwork, creating band posters, making a living off art, and the danger of AI slop in the artworld.
I’ve known Evan for years through a mutual friend, we met when we were in college, and I’ve been following his career ever since. It has brought me a tremendous amount of hipster joy to point to a poster of his artwork hanging at a friend’s house and I get to say “oh is that Evan Cohen? Cool guy. I knew him back in college” and then I get to be all self satisfied and arrogant for a while. It’s the best.
But I am not kidding that he is a genuinely cool guy and great person, and was very happy when he agreed to be on the podcast!
Music by How Strange It Is, brought to you by Klubhouse Fantasy Sports
You might have put a tagline last week, and then this week it's like, why didn't he use the tagline? Uh, that's the order that these things were done in. I don't really understand how that works. Doesn't matter to me. Thank you to how strange it is for their song Slime. They've graciously let me use it as a podcast intro and outro song, and I think it works really well as one of those. Evan, you didn't hear that uh because we didn't play that part of the podcast, but maybe on the listen back. I am with uh Evan Cohen, who is a you're like a famous artist now, right? Can I say famous? Are you famous?
SPEAKER_01I wouldn't say that. Uh maybe on social media I have a bit of a following, but there are much, much more famous people and more talented than I am.
SPEAKER_00I, you know, uh I think you're the most famous person that I most famous artist that I knew before they were a famous artist because uh Evan and I have known each other for a long time due to a mutual friend that uh Evan went to college with. I was a high school friend with. His name is Josh Kip. I think he's actually come up on the podcast before. Actually shout it out. Hey Josh, what's up, man?
SPEAKER_01He's probably watching.
SPEAKER_00He's probably watching. I'm pretty sure. I'm almost certain Costa is gonna watch as well because he is also uh a fan of he makes little TikToks uh of drawing as well. I should have brought him in. We could have done a battle royale. Uh but yeah, I uh Evan, when was the last time? I guess I don't want to make this a Josh Kipp specific podcast, but how did you get to meet Josh Kip and how did you get to be friends with him in Skidmore?
SPEAKER_01Oh, um Josh and I met I think just through some mutual friends, yeah. Uh it's funny, after I had met him, I learned that the previous year we like had lived in the same dorm on separate floors, and we just never went to each other's floor. So um yeah, we just kind of hit it off and then we ended up living together uh junior year and then senior year, we just kind of became really tight, and we've maintained that friendship for what now almost 15 years.
SPEAKER_00Um I don't need to know that I don't need to know the numbers. The numbers are wild. It still it feels like uh it honestly feels like it was maybe like two or three years ago that I would uh I went to school in Connecticut, you guys were up in Skidmore in upstate New York, and I'd probably once or twice a year I would drive up to Skidmore to go see Josh and hang out because uh obviously love Josh, but uh even more than that, it was like after the first time I was there, I met you, I met Costa, I met a bunch of other Skidmore people whose names I'm not gonna remember right now, but every single one of them was like the nicest person in the world to me, and it it just felt like when I would show up for the most part, it it felt like I'd been going to the school for years, and you guys just were like, Oh, he's here now. This is like a new person that's part of whatever we're doing right now. It was awesome. I love those little Skidmore trips. Uh, have you been back at all since you know you graduated?
SPEAKER_01Uh a few times. I went back for not my 10 year but Josh's wife's 10-year. Um but no, I I live out in Michigan now, so it's kind of that's a bit of a trip. Um, but I still visit down in uh Beacon, New York, where I used to live. Um I'll go there every couple years because uh the brewery I worked for, that's where that is, so I'll head out there and check it out. But no, I haven't been back in a while. Um but yeah, I very nice people there, I will say. It was a very good experience and kind of taught me a lot about because I studied printmaking there. And uh, you know, surprisingly, I ended up doing something that's kind of similar. I mean, I do a lot of digital art, but printmaking is heavily involved in like understanding silkscreen and lithography and wood block relief and all these things kind of play a part into what I do still, which is kind of cool. Um, but definitely heavier on the digital side these days.
SPEAKER_00Well, yeah, I think uh I probably should have started with this, but uh Evan is obviously uh you know professionally an artist. You said you work for breweries. You have a very unique style that uh like when I moved out to Portland, Oregon about 10 years ago, Evan, I swear to God, every single house when I would go over to somebody's house, either on the wall or specifically on their fridge a lot of the times, was some drawing you had done. Some like you know, it's got this little panel thing where things kind of evolve as the panels go on. It tells like a visual story, but it's not, you know, in a graphic art style, like you know, uh graphic novel style. It's literally just the visuals tell some sort of uh I don't know, some story. You watch the paintings evolve and all that stuff. Uh, but every single person I knew had that picture up, and I gotta tell you, Evan, it made me seem really cool. Whenever I would see somebody have one, I'd be like, oh, yeah, is that Evan Cohn? Yeah, I know him. I used to uh hang out with him when I'd go visit my buddy up in Skinboard. So thank you for that. You made me seem a lot cooler than I actually am.
SPEAKER_01Um, that's that's really develop your style. Um, yeah, it just kind of happened over time. I mean, I I'm a huge fan of comics, and I'm a big fan of kind of the contemporary art scene, especially in the comic world of like digital, more simple, kind of playing around with halftone patterns and all that stuff. And um, I went to a comic book show in New York called Comic Arts Brooklyn back in like 2016. Um, and that changed my world because it made me realize that I could do comics sort of not full-time, but I could do these shows and sell online. And and so I started making comics like right after that, and started attending shows in 2018, and and really I owe a lot of it to social media because that was the the boost that I needed to get my stuff out there. And it also was a challenge for me to keep making kind of uh web comic-y stuff, you know, stuff for social media. It really pushed me to to develop my style and post every couple days, and and so over a short period of time it it really took off, and um and I just have stuck with it since and I and it was a lot of like setting parameters for myself of like because you can really do anything, so I was like, what do I actually want to do and how do I want to create this breadth of work? And a lot of that requires you to just choose things not to do. And so I do everything on the computer, I don't sketch on paper really anymore, and I do a lot of flat colors, and you know, I I developed like a language that I can do things fast and uh just kind of get my ideas out there. But it all started with comics and just seeing other comic book artists that you know, indie indie comic artists, you know, that are hustling and selling prints and pins and all that stuff. You know, you can really make a living doing it if you you know have a nice following and people won't like your work.
SPEAKER_00It is uh a wild experience to see somebody doing something you want to do professionally, and it's just like, oh, that's like a that's like a person, that's like a normal guy, and they're just out here selling their prints, they're making friends, it's all part of a community. Uh I don't know much about uh uh the you know indie comic scene. I read graphic novels probably like one or two a year every once in a while. I need somebody to like recommend me a bunch, so if you want to name drop them, I'll write them down as we talk or whatever. But how do you feel?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I don't know. I I think there is probably one in Portland, or there's probably dozens of indie comic shows or DIY rhizograph you know conventions. I know the big one on the West Coast up where you are is Short Run, which is in Seattle. Um but yeah, I would just give it a Google and like anyone who's listening, just Google it because there's it's always a good way to meet people because people who make comics like music and they like, you know, it's just like common people, you know, you meet people that are similar to you in that at those places.
SPEAKER_00I feel like comics especially have uh and like artists and stuff like that with these conventions and stuff, it's very similar to like a DIY music scene that's most of my audience is coming from something like that, where it's like you tend to see these people over and over again. I I talk all the time about like I mean making adult friends is really hard, but part of the reason that it's hard is that you don't have these uh spaces for casual interactions. You know, like in school you sit next to somebody every day because that's where the teacher assigned you to sit. And then you have all these chances to like develop a relationship, but if it doesn't work out, like you just kind of let it go. There's no pressure. Uh I feel like you know, with these comic conventions, I'm sure you went out and showed your work in a million different places and you started to see some friendly faces, start to see some people that like you recognize as like there's a kinship there. Uh you find it as like a community-knit thing. How does that work?
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I mean, I I obviously like COVID put a damper on that, and uh I've been getting slowly back into doing shows again, but um yeah, those they're just fun and they're again very motivating, and it's cool to meet other people, especially people that you know by their Instagram name or whatever, and and now you put a face to it and you go, Oh my god, I've been following your work for so long. And um and there's also this feeling of camaraderie of like, hey, we're both like hustling, isn't that crazy? You know, someone that has been doing it for 20 years versus someone that's just starting out, we're both kind of on the same left uh level playing field. Um but uh yeah, I met a lot, I've meet a lot of cool people through that, and and certainly social media. Again, I I I it's such a cool if you use it in the right way, you know, meeting people and connecting with other artists and musicians and reaching out and not just doom scrolling. It is a very helpful tool um for getting your work out there and for getting in front of eyeballs and and certainly creative directors and art directors and all those people are on social media just like hunting for for new talent.
SPEAKER_00Um just doom scrolling themselves, you know?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And you pop up, and then yeah, but then you pop up and they're like, oh cool, I'll save that, and who knows? Yeah. A lot of my work has come from that, I think, you know, of just people coming across it on Pinterests or wherever it ends up, you know. The internet's crazy with like that, where it just kind of a web of of stuff just ends up wherever. And so yeah, you never know where a job could come from or a gig or or a sale, even. I don't know.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, it's it's you kind of have to do it all.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I I do it all. I I'm on every platform, and it's all just me, me sitting there doing it all, yeah.
SPEAKER_00Dude, I I feel like uh I mean so many people are doomers about any sort of technological stuff. Uh you know, I I talk to a lot of people about short form video because there's it's so easy to see the negatives about these things, but it is harder to see kind of the positive stuff, I think, in retrospect. Like probably when you started making, you know, uh your comics online, uh there may have been like a stigma to it. I don't know how long ago exactly you were starting this thing. But like now it's like, oh yeah, obviously, obviously he used Instagram to like promote his art. But like at a time there was uh you had to like invent that as a way to get your art out there. Like the the artists had to find a way to use this technology to create part of that com uh that community. Like you were talking about, you said uh you made a conscious decision to limit yourself to art that would play well on the canvas of digital media, social media, and it's like one, yeah. I think that's great. I love art through limitation. I think it's you know, I think that's important. You have to have some limits. Art is not everything, it's one, it's not necessarily one thing, but it's like it's playing off of those limits. But like, do you find that you've developed a relationship to social media that you would consider to be generally positive?
SPEAKER_01I'd say for the most part, I'm I'm not gonna lie and say I don't sit there and look at dumb stuff because it's entertaining, but I think uh overall, and also I'm not gonna lie and say it hasn't helped me, and I feel very lucky to have gotten in when I did, because I I imagine it's very difficult nowadays because I don't really make a lot of I make some short form animation stuff, but animation's very hard. And if you're gonna make a lot of it, it's a lot of dedication, and then you you know, where's your revenue coming from? You know, like at the end of the day, this is a job and it's it's paying my bills, and I have to like think of it that way in a bit, you know, of like how do I funnel people over here or get their attention here? Um but I think overall, yeah, I mean it's it's a game, and you play the game, and everyone has to kind of play it. I mean, I've known artists that I've consciously not had social media, and I'd love to hear, you know, 10 years later how they feel about that. Maybe they feel a lot better, you know, inside for sure. Um, but maybe they feel like they're lacking in some sort of networking with other galleries, or again, like art directors are on social media, and if you if you're not on it, how else are you gonna get their attention besides maybe pulled email or or just like by chance? I don't know. Yeah. So you have kind of have to we're in an age now where you have to get someone's attention, and wherever they are, you kind of just go and and say, Hey, I'm here, and that happens to be social media right now. Um so I look at it like that, and that's how that's my healthy way of looking at it. Obviously, like it it drives me crazy and sometimes it gives me panic attacks, but um, especially with like having as many followers as I do, it's very scary sometimes to to wonder how far this will go. And um I'm very aware of the things that I post and you know, I try to maintain a level of uh just like professionalism when it comes to social media, so um that can be hard sometimes. But um overall, I think it's been very good, and I encourage anyone to look at it that way rather than seeing it as a scary thing, especially for artists and stuff. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Oh man, I think uh you know the world is online now. Uh that's like that is uh when we were growing up, if you talk to somebody, it's like when they talk people that were online or like people that went online every day were the minority of people when we were growing up. Now it's assumed that everybody's online kind of all the time. You know, everybody every day goes online for a little bit. So it's like the world's online, you gotta put your art online. I like that you said, you know, play the game. That's how I view a lot of the stuff that I've been doing with these little short form videos. It's like, you know, I want to know how this works now. I want to know how this new world works. I've heard uh somebody describe the modern world as like the dictatorship of the now. Like everything is happening in uh in these very immediate terms, you know. And I I say that a lot. I'll make a video. I made a video last week, uh, which will date this episode, but it was about uh Limp Biscuit and Rage Against the Machine. It got like 150,000 views, and it was very big for me or whatever. And within a week it's dead. No one's watching it anymore. It's already over. And it's like, yeah, that's I mean, that's my life. I'm making these I'm making a disposable form of content, but it's like the immediacy is the important thing. Uh I like when you talk about like uh your thing is kind of a brand identity, right? You have you're talking about how many followers you have, but social media is a very personalized version of a brand. Do you find it hard to balance between like Evan Cohen the professional artist and Evan Cohen the guy posting online, you know?
SPEAKER_01Uh I think they're one and the same, I believe, right?
SPEAKER_00Sort of. It's like I guess like uh the way I look at it is like posting your friend's birthday party, like you went to pictures of that, versus like you're posting your work for people to check out. Do you feel there's any difference between the two, or is that all one and the same?
SPEAKER_01Uh well I left Facebook, I I had dwindled everything down to Instagram like a decade ago. And since then I don't post any pictures of like my house or my dog or my partner or anything. You know, I I don't have that part of social media in my life anymore. So um I look at it all as just fragments of Evan Cohen the artist. So I am Evan Cohen the the marketing guy who goes on social media and posts stuff on Reddit and on Instagram or wherever, Tumblr. Like I still have a Tumblr, which is crazy. No one goes on Tumblr anymore. Um that's good. But you have to just kind of do it. I don't know. You set aside you set time aside and and when you're sitting there on the couch, just do a post or something. I don't know, you know, like you find time to do it, but um I do think it's all kind of part of the bigger picture. And like you said before, where you're having we realize like you have to pump out so much new content. You know, I was saying before, it's good to develop a style and a mentality where you can just pump out new content because that is kind of what you have to do. And if I spent a month, you know, I've never been the type of guy to spend a month on something because that that would really give me anxiety. I like to be able to sit down and finish something in a day or or less sometimes, you know, like in a couple hours, and then just move on, because it it is something that you just kind of have to and hope like one of them blows up or something, but for the most part, you just have to keep that train moving. Um and it's good for you. I think it I think in social media is it's almost like being back in school where it's it's like you you have to post on Tuesday, you know, you that's the deadline, and if you're not and whatever you have done on Tuesday, you gotta post. And that it makes you do like you know, make just make decisions that you normally wouldn't make for sure.
SPEAKER_00Oh yeah, I I love that idea. Um, because I've found my own experience on this, it's like I'll post something, and then as soon as I've posted, it's like it that I'm already on to like the next one, and you hope it blows up or something like that, but it's not like you can really do anything with something that kind of blew up. You're I guess you could like repost it or something like that. But yeah, uh when did you first start getting like real traction uh off your off your art? What was it like the first couple times you're like, oh wow, this one's like really kind of blowing up. Uh I don't know, it's a it's a unique experience. I'm sure people would like to hear about it.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um it was I was living in Beacon, New York, uh working a couple jobs. I started working for that brewery just when they Hudson Valley Brewery. They had just started out. And so I was doing labels for them, even though they weren't really packaging anything yet. But everything was kind of like DIY was hustling, selling stuff, doing like wood block printing in my garage with some friends from Skidmore, and uh started doing these comics. Like I said, I went to a comic book show and then started doing digital comics and posting them online, and then it wasn't until years later, I want to say like three or three years later, four years later, that I finally started getting some uh articles written about me on websites like Boom.com or It's NiceThat.com, which are both really good art blogs for anyone listening. And nice. Yeah, and Instagram. And I think it all kind of snowballed uh, you know, right around 2019, I started getting like bigger gigs and started doing more shows and doing a lot of printing on my own. I mean that's the thing, is a lot of what I do is self-funded too. So this has been like this ongoing project for over a decade now, where in the beginning I had no money, I had nothing. So you you do what you can and you sell a few prints and you put the money back into the next project. And you and and so slowly, one by one, I I was able to quit all my jobs and go full time. But it was a long time before I was able to do that. And um and luckily I started getting jobs like for editorial stuff, like uh New York Times, Washington Post, all those things that really like digital art. I think they cater to digital artists a lot because there's such a quick turnaround and there's a lot of back and forth of edits and stuff. And so if you're good at digital art, you can you know bang out one of those in a day or two and make pretty good money. And I started getting more of those gigs, and and so I just went full time and started doing more comics, and um the gig poster stuff really didn't take off until recently, but uh Yeah. That's been cool to see. Yeah, it's been fun. You know, I I'm just dipping my toes in it. I really don't know how to navigate it yet. I I'm still I feel very new to it. There's people that have been doing it for so long who are so much better than me at it. Um, and I feel like a newbie, but um, I'm learning and I'm I'm getting my you know uh my footing and understanding how the world works and stuff. Um so that's been cool.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean I I one of the reasons that I reached out to you is I saw you did a built-to-spill poster recently.
SPEAKER_01Uh oh no, Wilco, you mean?
SPEAKER_00Oh Wilco. Good lord. I listen, man, this is this is my I'm a music influencer, I should know these things. But yeah, you did uh you did the Wilco poster, and uh I that that's wild to me. It's like, oh hey, shoot, that's Evan, the guy I met in Skidmore is doing the Wilco poster. Uh band that has uh it seems like they have a very like um I don't know, beneficial relationship with independent artists. They have a lot of different t-shirts, they do a lot of different design work and stuff like that. Do you interact with the band at all when you're doing this stuff, or is it just all through like a marketing agency?
SPEAKER_01Most of the time it's through a creative director, you know. Uh uh any band that can afford to do posters, which is not a lot these days, and that's something I'd love to talk about, is is the economy of gig posters. I think it's fascinating. And I'm I'm like still understanding how it works because you know, to print a poster, you have to have a lot of money up front. You gotta have a pretty big uh fan base that's gonna buy a poster, you have to have a tour that's big enough with enough people, you gotta order enough prints that it's cheap enough. You know, there's a lot of factors that go into it, and so the bands that you tend to see are are bigger bands that have a lot of people working for them. Um, you know, it's rare to at least, you know, unless you're going to like DIY shows and like working directly with people, but if you're being hired for these bigger gigs, it's a lot of times there's a lot of people involved and and creative directors whose jobs are to to make merch for each tour stop or maybe for the whole tour or whatever but um it's rare to to to know if the the artist actually like looks at it you know I I did a David Byrne post recently and they posted a picture of me of of him holding my poster and that was the first time I've ever actually seen like you know the artist interacting with it which was cool.
SPEAKER_00That's wild man.
SPEAKER_01But yeah no it's usually like you know there's there's so many gig poster artists out there that um kind of they go through the roster of of different artists and I'm just now starting to be put into that roster and it's it's been really cool. And yeah that Wilco poster was was really fun to to work on. Yeah man what was uh what was the first gig poster that you were asked to do well funnily enough when I was living in Beacon New York I happened to be working at this high school doing woodworking. It was an old high school that was turned into artist studios and one of them was a a woodworking studio and right next to it was a recording studio which is not a good place to have a recording studio next to a woodworking studio but um one day in walks Martin Courtney of real estate and we hit it off and I became good friends with him and I ended up doing some stuff early on for him. Like I did some stuff for his solo album and then I did a t-shirt and a gig poster for real estate. And so that was kind of like my I got like into Domino Records and like understood some kind of how that worked. But then it was like a lot of cold emailing and just reaching out to people before I started getting more of like into the jam band scene and kind of understanding where posters are you know like there are different scenes that have posters and and you see it when you look at like Instagram accounts that post posters and stuff. It's like the jam band scene, the rock kind of metal scene maybe like the higher end maybe like indie scene like Wilco who has like a big following you know there are it's different different genres are able to have these fan bases that want posters and it does require a lot of uh upfront costs and understanding that they're going to be sold but it is a really lucrative kind of uh thing and I think it it does pay a lot of bands bills um because nice a lot I think you know especially for jam bands like there's such a long history of collecting them and selling them on eBay and swapping them and like you know the the foil ones versus the regular ones and so there's a lot of collecting that goes on.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome.
SPEAKER_01Oh yeah like this or variant like if if you like sign up for a VIP package you could get like a variant version or something that might be worth more money. But uh yeah you kind of have to have that built-in fan base that a lot of bands maybe have but aren't ready to pull the trigger on 20 different posters with 10 20 different artists and you know that's a lot of uh upkeep I think.
SPEAKER_00Oh absolutely I I I like this point about uh because these different genres and these different uh these different genres breed different cultures and they'll have different relationships to different types of merch or something like that. Like I doubt I doubt there's a lot of jam bands that are selling like cassette tapes of their records as much as like the in the DIY scene. That's like a huge they're doing CDs now you're like they burn their own CDs. Right. Do you feel like you've had to uh you know like what is your favorite genre of music to make posters for and when you make posters for a genre or a band you don't know that well do you feel like you have to make yourself very acquainted with that band, their genre of music, the culture that's around that or do you just kind of worry about the art first and then see if they like it?
SPEAKER_01Again I'm just starting out so anyone who's a longtime poster artist who's listening to this, I apologize because I'm I'm still a newbie at this. But uh so I haven't done a lot of them. I mostly do stuff for jam bands because I think that's where a lot of the money is where where people who are attending these shows have money and again the fan base is big enough that they're they're gonna buy some so I get a lot of jam band stuff which I love. I'm a big fish fan I love the dead you know I'm I I I that's something I grew up with and I'll always have but I'd love to get more into more like I find it fascinating this is just a side note of like why more pop acts like big pop acts that tour the world why they don't do posters. You know like why doesn't a Billy Eilish have a poster at every stop they have tens of thousands of people who would be willing to buy you don't even have to you know print a thousand posters and there's a hundred thousand people that's not that hard to sell you know so that's kind of fascinating to me that there is a big part of the music industry that does a lot of t-shirts and they do a lot of that kind of merch. But when it comes to hiring artists especially people like me who aren't big name artists to do work for them I think that is like a a a a missing piece to to for some reason I I don't understand.
SPEAKER_00But I I'd love to do more so Billy Eilish Billy Eilish please hire Evan to do he'll do individual posters for every stop of your next tour.
SPEAKER_01I know you're listening to this Billy obviously you're a huge fan of the pod uh but his I mean that's kind of the that yeah I mean that's the dream less like what kind of music I kind of want to do like are you familiar with um King Gizzard? Oh yeah absolutely yeah so their artist Jason Galia who has been their artist since day one and has done 99 I think they've only really outsourced a few times to other artists but he does all of their art and that's kind of the dream is like getting paired up with someone so well friends even and just that's all you do is you just make art and you make every poster and that's because it's it's a lot of it is like finding consistency in the work. You know like bands only go on tour certain times of the year and they they hire months in advance because you have to print all this stuff and have it ready you know six months before you go on tour kind of so there's a lot of juggling of finding gigs but finding consistent gigs would be awesome and finding a job like that I mean his work is incredible and he's got such a huge following and they're they're definitely like another genre where it's like similar to a jam ban where they have such a huge universe of people that are willing to to buy their merch and support them that they can make a new poster every single stop and it will sell out and that's awesome.
SPEAKER_00Yeah those lizard people uh I'll just call them the lizard people I'm sure they call themselves the lizard people like why wouldn't you? Yeah psychedelic rock especially is is such a cool like there is a huge element of psychedelic culture and the visual media as well and I I love this idea of I had honestly I'd never even thought about like a band has a personal artist to design all of their posters but it makes sense it's like it's all part of this one larger ecosystem that is the art, the musicians themselves uh the band, the merch and all that stuff like this all makes up you know when you think of King Gizzard and the I'm not gonna say the name because I'm bad with names but uh we think of King Gizzard like this is this entity into itself that moves from city to city uh and there's all these little parts you know uh that that move with it I it would be a really sweet also just like as an artist I feel like it'd be really fun for you to like attach yourself to a project to attach yourself to a band and really get to explore everything that your art can do to like promote that in a poster or something like that. Is there a band that like would be your oh my god absolutely 100% uh would sign my life rights away to that to do this as their like full time make your plea right now maybe there's I don't know if I can do that right now that feels weird especially now that I'm like in the industry.
SPEAKER_01I'll take any job honestly I'll take any job I'll take any job right now. No I don't know man right there. I got to do something for Jerry Garcia recently and that was really really nice. I did uh it was a a re-release of a live album from 1991 at the Warfield in San Francisco um and that was like a dream job of course um yeah that's I've done stuff for fish I mean when I was a kid doing imagining I was doing a poster for fish was pretty wild so I've definitely checked a few things off but I I I'm I'm not greedy. I will take any job and and I love working for I do love working for other bands too because it is a challenge. I mean every band that reaches out the parameters are pretty open. You know it's surprising how there aren't a lot of things you can't do. You know it there are certain things that they say you know please don't include these things or maybe like keep it PG13 so to speak but uh you know they really leave it up to you and if you got to have some confidence in in your style and and an idea and execute it. And then it is cool to see over time all these different posters you've done for different bands and hopefully they speak to each other in a way that has a you know creates a portfolio of work that you're proud of because it is it's fun to and challenging and sometimes you're able to like the New Orleans poster I did for Wilco have like some architecture from uh New Orleans that I kind of incorporate.
SPEAKER_00So there's there's fun aspects of of the job where you can kind of tailor it to oh this is for David Byrne like what would how would David Byrne like a poster you know you you do get into the mentality of the of the artist and and of the audience too you know like a a jam band poster has a long history behind it and there's expectations that people want from it and uh you know you want to try to stick the landing the best you can while staying true to your own work and that that can be challenging but it's it's fun definitely I mean the the band poster tradition it's like this is like a American folk art tradition really uh this whole idea of like you're going to you know originally they're just a poster with the name of the band and what times this shows playing but this has evolved into a uh a part of uh American culture that is like very intricately woven in uh I love this idea of like they give you the freedom to make whatever you want uh not whatever you want obviously there's some parameters but give you some artistic leeway on that um when I make my little videos right some of the times I'm just I just come up with an idea I record a video and then I stick whatever song that is the next thing I thought of but sometimes I try to connect sometimes I'm talking about the song sometimes it's just a song that I was like listening to and over time people have told me they like trying to figure out like why I picked the song that I picked to talk about the thing that I'm talking about and try to build that connection in their own brain. I feel that kind of similarly to a lot of band posters that I've seen you'll see a poster that's just sort of a uh a an expressive form of art and it's like oh how does this relate to you know we'll take the band real estate which was uh one of the uh one of my favorite bands I always wait until it's sunny out to listen to them I can't listen to them when it's oh they're self-titled here in Pacific North when it's when it's snowy uh I love their self-titled but yeah go ahead sorry oh you're a snowy real estate guy I'm a sunny real estate guy oh sunny day real estate yeah not sunny day real estate yeah different different bands yeah I know um but uh yeah just like uh I don't know do you feel that you're creating space there between what you're doing like uh I guess you know if if somebody gives you uh like what's going with the Wilco one what was your first thought when you're like all right Wilco wants a poster did you come up with a couple of different ideas? Did you have something immediately?
SPEAKER_01Did they ask you for something in specific and just jot down some ideas maybe listen to their music if if you're feeling inspired but I always have a back catalog of ideas that I'm I'm just kind of throwing around and if it feels like it works for the the venue and the the place that it's at then it's great. And and I tend to uh tend to like make three or four sketches that I'll like send over and hope one of them works. But sometimes there's back and forth and sometimes uh they know right away or you know it's it really depends on um kind of their vision and and if they're willing to just say yeah or they they have more catered like I did a piece for or three posters for the duo Odessa do you know the the electronic uh duo um and like that was at the gorge in uh in Washington state and so it was very much like they wanted the gorge to be in the poster and they wanted it to be centered around that and so but that's cool and again part of the challenge so it's sometimes you have some you know a list of things to go from it but oftentimes it's just sit down and come up with a few ideas that you feel confident in and uh that you think will be a cool poster. You know I always try to make it about the art and the you know and like how this will look and so you know but like you know sometimes the the band can kind of overwhelm the art and I try to keep the art and the band together in a harmonious piece and and have it be something that I would want to put up on the wall and and maybe even if I wasn't at that show I would still want that piece of art. Because that's the big thing too right if a band doesn't sell out you know they have those posters for the next stop or for they put them up you know and so how do you convince someone in Seattle to buy something from Boston if they weren't at that show? And a lot of it has to do with again the fan base people just love the the artist and the art and they like the art and they want to support both and and so that's that's part of it too is creating an engaging piece while supporting the band while also helping them sell them later maybe and also you get some on the back end too sometimes as payment like I'll get you know money to be up front and then as well you get some posters to sell. And so uh that helps you know pay all the artists a little bit more on the back end. So you gotta make sure that you can sell them too. So making just a cool design that looks good in your store and so there's a lot of like things you think about that's not just like ah this is a cool idea you know sometimes not like I say not everything's a t-shirt design. I think not everything is a poster design too and so I yeah try to think about it like that. Like it's not a comic book page. It's this piece of art that's going to be hung in someone's room sort of thing.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I like that idea of like designing a poster maybe for the Boston stop that has to be sold in like Texas or something because it's like actually I remember talking to a tattoo artist a while back and uh he was saying it's like we we asked him like hey what are the tattoos people regret the least and he's like the ones that they think look cool. When people get something that has like a lot of intrinsic personal value they didn't really need a tattoo to like capture that they love their mom. You know they knew that already they didn't need the tattoo for that. But the thing where they just think it aesthetically kind of like looks pleasing and so for me it's like if I'm buying a a poster for a band I kind of don't really need it to be like oh this is when they played in Portland Oregon it's like I'm I was there. I'm well aware of that I just want the one that kind of looks uh the coolest but uh also talking about like your idea of um building for a poster you talked a lot about how your style was developed for social media at least at the beginning do you find yourself branching out in new ways as you change your medium for you know your art yeah and I I I think as I was doing a lot of social media I was also selling prints and doing books so there was a lot of physical media happening but to drive people towards that you have to make convincing social media content.
SPEAKER_01Yeah and sometimes that is different than maybe what the product is in the end but yeah I think well there's social media has definitely shifted I started this 13 my account's like 15 years old or something so you know it was a long time before anything took off and it has changed a lot. I think video has been pushed heavily recently so for a lot of artists you see that you know these like reveal videos or uh how you know people are really interested in how to make something so yeah the product itself is no longer the as valuable as the process which has always been the case I think but now more than ever I think it's being pushed a little bit. And so yeah you know but I still I still try to maintain true to myself and post when I post and and post the things that I'm confident in and um you know even if something doesn't do well these days you just kind of keep going like like you said and but um yeah you know it it's funny you find like with the gig posters back to that first that like sometimes you kind of have to find the community that really engages with it because oftentimes it's such a widespread net that um you know I don't know how many fans of this particular band I have but I can find the community that are fans of it and share it there or it requires a little bit more extra effort of like reaching out to groups of people that are like like subreddits or Facebook group you know Facebook groups or um specific Instagram accounts or something like that. So um but it's just navigating you know comic people like comics and but it is funny like there are if you think about Venn diagrams of people that like stuff it's you know I have people that are fans of the brewery that I work for who also obviously like music and they also like art. Yeah it's not that crazy to think of you know three people three different uh groups so thankfully I I find myself sandwiched between a lot of similar interests and and people will support it even if maybe they're not uh directly involved in that and you know like I have who don't people who don't drink beer might still want to buy my art you know so that kind of thing. So it's it's cool but it's it's been getting uh definitely like different these days approaching social media and um it's it's gonna it's you know it's but it's again it's it's a challenge and it's a job and it's part of the job so uh I'm up for it.
SPEAKER_00I mean uh you know I obviously I talk a lot these days about uh social media and the the short form video as being like the dominant form of media right now really for most people they just kind of watch these little videos all the time um yeah and uh like I I latched onto when you were talking about uh how artists will make videos about how they make their art a lot these days and whenever people ask me I was like hey how do I make a video to like promote my band or something like that I always tell the same thing it's like if you're trying to sell something at the end of the day if you're trying to get somebody to do something you have to give them something first. You know it's like so that's how I kind of see it is like these people ultimately they want to sell their art but it's like all right I'll sell I'm gonna have the art there it'll be at the end of the tour. You can get it at the gift shop at the end of this video or whatever. But like here I'll give you like a little art lesson. You guys can get that that's what you get uh that's basically what I'm paying for your attention. Uh I don't know that's just one way I I try to think about it. For you specifically I've seen a couple animations of your work how do you go about animating it and do you feel a a push to work more towards animation?
SPEAKER_01Again animation is such a labor of love and to anyone that tries it it's it's exhausting and it's it's yeah uh you know everyone knows that it takes so long to do a second of animation but uh I have my little tricks that I do and and the way that I approached comics ten years ago is similar to how I approach animation and they're very like uh they they kind of speak to each other and a lot of my comics kind of lend to being animated. So that's kind of where it started was how do I take animation and break it apart and put it on paper and then kind of reverse that and make make animations out of it. And some of mine have done really well and some of them not so good. And you know it is but that's the problem is like it's such an intense investment that the payoff sometimes can be hard. But like you said you're funneling people to the thing at the end so I find animation to be a great way of uh engaging especially now that video is kind of being pushed more that it's it's a good way of getting people to to see you and to hear you and uh you know there are ways of doing it that it doesn't take forever to make it um and I love doing it. I mean if I could I would love to work on an animation for a year and make like a full thing. I don't think my personality would lend to it nor do like my finances but I applaud anyone that takes that risk and like go see uh you know go see the short form Oscars and just be like these people dedicated years of their life to this 10 minute animation and it's beautiful um but we live in a time where like everyone's kind of struggling and it's hard to like take that yeah you know I that's just the mentality I have of just how do I uh you know make a living um doing that and and right now I haven't found that recipe for animation but making short form animation is very fun and um I love doing that and and I do everything still just like in Photoshop and it's very DIY like I don't I'm not I think if someone saw how I did it they'd be like this is incorrect but I I didn't go to school for animation. I didn't go to school for digital art like 99% of what I do now is all just from trial and error. So um that's awesome. I think that's yeah it's it's been relieving to find uh that of what I the things that I choose to do have have resonated with people because it is a lot of like I don't know what I'm doing and I'm just gonna hope that people like it. And it's been it's been great. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I mean I I'm a huge believer in the DIY mentality of like just start doing stuff and and keep getting better. And you never really get over that idea in the back of your head of like oh my God, I actually don't know what I'm doing at all. Uh I think uh for you specifically, like I always thought uh when I would do see your animations, I really enjoy them because your comics have a rhythm and a flow to them that already feels very animated. They kind of play off of how things develop from one scene to the next scene. So uh I've always, you know, thought, you know, I would I would be the person that if you've got a year to do a uh an animated short at the Oscars thing, I would go watch that uh 100%.
SPEAKER_01Thank you. But no, that is great at it. That is sort of the thing though, is like I love animating and it takes such a long investment that comics are kind of a nice solution for me. It was a way to make these like longer, risky animations where things morph over time, but your brain kind of fills in the the gaps when it comes to comics. You know, you can see it all laid out on a page or two, and it doesn't have to be animated for you to understand what's happening. So it was a way for me to get that out of my system while still um feeling like I'm animating, but maybe you're just doing each frame, you know, kind of or every other thing.
SPEAKER_00Have you ever thought of uh I don't know how this is in whatever your circles are, but there's a lot of conversation about art and AI these days. But uh just looking at your comics and seeing how well they automatically sort of animate themselves, have you thought about looking into any AI tools, or is that just something you don't want to touch?
SPEAKER_01Hey, I don't want to touch that at all. No, I have no answer.
SPEAKER_00Dude, I believe it, man.
SPEAKER_01I I I ask chat GPT sometimes to like find a resource for reading something, but I I am not at all interested in AI when it comes to visual art, and I I don't really intend to use it, and thankfully I haven't seen anyone really trying to use it on my art. I've you know, you hear stories of other people, but that's the gamble that you take when you put stuff online, has always been the risk of people taking it and using it without your permission. And I've had plenty of people steal my work before. Uh, and we live in a time now where you can't even really do anything about it. Um, so it's it sucks. Uh you know, you can try, but how how are you gonna take down a company? You know, it's it's it's difficult. And so I I navigate it by just hoping for the best and refusing to be a part of it and uh uh hoping that I have a job in 10 years. I don't know. I do think there's a shift. I think there is a shift, and I'm not the first person to say this that shows like like the comic book where we started with the comic book shows and DIY art and music stuff, like that is now more than ever, at least in my life, more important, you know. So I think there is going to be a shift. Unfortunately, we're also living in a time where people are struggling, and so the shift to supporting small artists like you and I is hard. And so uh uh yeah, you know, you hope that uh there's enough people to keep us lifted up to survive whatever this is happening. Um and I do think that it is, you know, it comes in waves, and I think um there is a push for more personal, you know, handmade goods now than ever, I think.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I think too, uh I talk about this a lot with the proliferation of like my little reels, right? I think the success that I'm having on this I wouldn't have had five years ago. The fact that there's so much fake content out there, like AI-driven stuff, and there's so much like personal branded content that like you see a guy walking around just clearly walking in the park and doing a no-cuts one-minute video where he just talks, like this now stands out in a way that early TikTok it wouldn't have stood out at all, because everybody was just a guy with a phone. Uh do you think.
SPEAKER_01Well, I was just curious. Do you think like um I don't know the names of these uh very famous Instagram accounts, but like there is a uh a wave of people interviewing musicians on the street and doing like, do you know this band? I don't know what that account is, but there is a push for music dialogue right now, I think. I think you're kind of in the midst of that, where uh AI and music is is a dial, you know, people are talking about that, and I think while there's a push for just talking about music and appreciating music and appreciating older music when people weren't using these tools and had to, you know, do everything rock and roll style. Um I think that you're you're kind of fitting in. Do you find that where like music discourse is very big right now?
SPEAKER_00I think uh yeah, a lot of it is uh the thing that I think is fascinating me right now is that for the last really 20 years, a lot of the push in popular music has been to consolidate down to a single artist. You get down to like one rap, you know, uh Kanye is the only person uh on stage that really matters. Everybody else is like a background dancer or something like that. And there seems to be this push, especially among like zoomers, of uh the return of bands. I think a lot of the things that happen, a lot of the dialogue around the band Geese, if you know them, is the fact that Cameron Winter could just be Cameron Winter, right? Like he very easily a lot of people like his solo album better than they like the geese stuff. But him basically saying is like, well, I want to hang out with my if I'm gonna travel around the country and around the world playing music, like I'm bringing my friends with me and I want to make a project with them. Like, and I think that is resonating with kids, especially post-pandemic, of like literally just I want to do something real, something off of a screen, something like off the computer, off of uh the digital world, with a group of people that are like actually my friends, that were like trying to overcome something together, you know. Do you uh that's sort of what I'm seeing? I don't know if you see it the same way.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, absolutely. And I think, well, like I was saying before we started that I was learning guitar, and as I navigate the guitar world and all these Instagram accounts and that do guitar lessons and famous guitarists and stuff, I feel like there's a push for learning instruments and especially guitar and bass, and there's so much out there for me to learn and to glean from that it feels like such a a great time to learn an instrument because I don't I have never taken a lesson, but I've I've taught myself quite a bit, and it's very rewarding. And and it's like it it makes me appreciate every single band that I've ever listened to now in a different way. It's like you know, it's like you you learn how to paint in school, you you take classes and you realize okay to do an oil painting, you do X, Y, and Z, and these are the steps, and then you go see a masterpiece and you go, Oh my god, like this now I understand how this was made, and it's it's this is crazy. And so with music, it's been so rewarding to have a fundamental understanding of a key and a chord change and and all of these things that like now I can listen to older music and have a huge respect for it, and it motivates me to make music, and so I think I'm hoping that Gen Z is picking up an instrument more and and doing that and just learning learning the basics, because I think that that propels you to have a greater appreciation of music overall in your life.
SPEAKER_00My uh honestly, my like my weird hope with AI, and this is uh just a thought I've had the last couple days, is like I think a lot of people thought when you know in the in the 60s they would talk about like video phones on the Jetsons, and the idea was like once we get video, everybody will do video phones, right? But what really ended up happening is people like being on the phone where you can't see each other talking. Like if I'm talking to my brother on the phone, I don't want him to know that I'm like cooking hot dogs or something like that. It doesn't feel like I'm giving him enough attention for the conversation, but having that kind of passive conversation style, that's something a lot of people like. That's what they like about phone calls. And so the technology of the video phone has primarily just gotten to very kind of bureaucratic conversations. They are for worker calls most of the time, you know? They're they're really just about something where you have to show that you're paying attention. And like a work meeting is like the kind of place where you have to pretend that you're paying attention, they gotta see your face or something like that. And I there's a part of me that kind of sees a lot of the AI art as just being kind of pushed into this area where the art doesn't really matter. Like corporate boardroom PowerPoint presentations, use as much AR art as possible. It's kind of a waste of people's time for them to do that shit. You know, they should be working on something, uh they should be, you know, learning how to play a guitar or something. I don't know. Uh and my hope is that like the AI art this idea that it's gonna come and replace human art, I think it's like, well, maybe it just will replace the kind of human art that was in itself already kind of dehumanizing and will leave more space and room for the actual artists and the actual appreciation of that art, you know. I don't know.
SPEAKER_01I uh that's you know, you got me thinking of one of my big pet peeves these days is seeing a commercial with a famous actor in it. Like a big a big name, because I've heard firsthand from many people that uh a paycheck from a commercial could pay your rent for an entire year. And so they're just handing these jobs over to people that don't need the money, that don't need the spotlight. And so I think about like, okay, so you're saying it'll replace boardroom music music, but is someone actually making that music now and are they being paid for it? And how much are they being paid for? And if they lost that gig, what are the repercussions from that? And so, you know, I think that could have a wave of there are a lot of people that just make background music and that's their job. And if that's stripped away, well, will that do the landscape of rock? Probably nothing, but it is a real person making real music that has a you know a life that they have to pay for. So it is it will, you know, no matter what, someone's gonna be you know losing their their job. But it is I don't know if it will be where you go to a concert and see an AI performer.
SPEAKER_00I mean maybe some kid, some zoomer might be able to figure out. I mean, ultimately, like the actual logical conclusion of all this is like if this much work is now been automated, and this is even buying into the idea that all the work that is currently being done is necessary work, but like you could read David Graeber's bullshit jobs on how much of that work is completely unnecessary. But it's like if this much of the work is gonna get automated anyway, uh right now we've set it up so that if it all gets automated, so many people will just lose their jobs. When the logical conclusion for like societal stability would be, well, just make the work week 20 hours. Make all work, you know, make a full-time job, the full-time benefits, you know, 20 hours or something like that a week. Now there's you've literally doubled the increase of the amount of jobs and you have you're nowhere allowed to eliminate useless jobs, you know. Like if there is a job that is truly pointless to do, even though it feeds you and and gives you like a paycheck, right now it's like you have to like beg for the useless, pointless job when in reality what's good for everybody is like just let that guy work 20 hours a week doing something actually useful and then spend the rest of the time taking care of his kid. Jesus. You know, like like go to have your life. But the problem is that we don't have the mechanism. Yeah. Well go ahead.
SPEAKER_01I'll I'll put that back at you where I don't know if you know Rick Beato on YouTube. He's a a a boomer YouTube guy who I mean I love his his content because he invites he interviews very cool, famous musicians, and and he's a very talented musician himself, so he has a lot of uh understanding of music theory and and stuff, and he was a producer for a while, and but he's got a lot of hot takes. But um one of the hot takes he had recently was the idea of only rich kids are able to make it in the music industry right now. Oh, yeah. And and that's been not a that's not his take. I mean, that's been for a long time the understanding of like the strokes and people like that where they come from a background that allows them to take chances and risk. And I think if AI eliminates jobs and allows people to be creatives, what's gonna happen to a world of everybody being creative? I mean, right now the landscape is already terrifying when it comes to making art and music where you're up against millions of people on social media. What's gonna happen when that's billions of people? I don't know. I love the idea of everyone making art, but it dilutes the entire industry to the point where are we just trading art for oranges? I don't know. You know, it starts to it starts to become a weird I don't know, there is there is limitations, you know. It's like for a long time art was such a an exclusive club, you couldn't belong to it. And now if that club is a little bit more democratic when it comes to social media, you can like Hudson Freeman, you know, like he broke through and now he's part of the club for a minute, and that's awesome. He wouldn't have been able to do that without social media, and so uh, but again, it's the risk you're taking, and not everyone is able to take those risks right now because they have jobs, and yeah, uh, I feel very lucky to be in the position I am in, and I took that risk ten years ago, and I don't know, it could it could go away at any second, and I'm aware of that, and and so I just try to ride it out until it's over. But um, I I do fear of like as the landscape grows and more people want to become artists, what does that do to the art world in general? I don't know.
SPEAKER_00I think uh I mean that that for so many different things is gonna be like the crisis of the next hundred years, really, is like so many different uh industries are set up off of a scarcity model that no longer can, you know. This is this is like again, going back to like Marx's theory of outmoding uh production, my thoughts on this is it just kind of come down to like, well, if we if we targeted the work that is necessary for the reproduction of society, all the stuff that like if we stopped doing it in two weeks, all of society would shut down and you split that up equally among the able body, uh how many ch how many work hours does everybody actually need to work? You know, if like farming, road repair, infrastructure maintenance and stuff like that was all done by the able-bodied people, are they working eight hours a week or something like that? And then it's like, yeah, it's gonna destroy the entertainment industry, it might destroy the art industry. But the you know, the reality of it is like those don't those go back to where they already exist as like DIY scenes, and then the notoriety becomes the currency because there is a superfluous of time and energy or something like that. Um you get something of a meritocracy. The problem is in getting from where we are now into a transition of like what that might look like. There's just so many people whose lives would you know you never want to be the remainder on a math equation done by somebody that kind of controls your life, and there's so many people that right now are existing. It's like, wait, am I gonna be one of the remainders? Just one of the unaccounted for people when this thing transitions from X to Y. I I I can't do that. I have like I have mouths to feed. This is my life, man. You know, it's tough, it's scary.
SPEAKER_01I think you know that it's always been fractured. I think uh in the art world, it's you know, you can imagine it like the higher echelon gallery people and then people who work as professionals and the hustlers like me who do DIY shows and stuff. And I think these fractures are just gonna become greater and greater, and you know, just will require you to evolve a bit, and and you know, the people that support me are similar people who also make art. I don't know, you start to like realize that we're all just kind of supporting each other in this and hope that that you know elevates us to keep us going. Um, but I think you know, if as more people kind of enter the world of of creative arts, it's gonna be scary. I don't know. Like I again I can't imagine doing it now as an 18-year-old. I you know I applaud anyone that can pierce through the noise and make a statement. And unfortunately, there are like rules now, especially back to social media, of like how do you go viral or how do you get someone's attention, or how how like what are the what's the hot flavor of the month to try to get you know hop on the train? And um sometimes that works, sometimes that doesn't, but um you know, and then how do you turn that into a job? Uh like how how many people do you know that like have gone viral, and then how do you spiral that into a 10, 15, 20 year career? And and it's especially when it comes to music, it's like you know, you go play a sh, you know, if you have one hit song, how can you turn that into a hit album or a hit tour or anything? You know, that's it's scary. You know, it's it feels exciting in the moment because you're like, wow, this this is really happening, but then to yeah, like to keep it going, like we've been talking about, it's it's yeah, it's it's different. Um and and yeah, so I don't know what's gonna happen with AI man. I think it's um I think it's all really stupid. I really think it's I think it's pointless. I really do. I I yeah, there's nothing good that I've seen come of it. Uh and so until there's something convincing, besides like acting as a brilliant thesaurus or something for me, yeah. Um, I really have no uh inkling to use it for visual art right now.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, a lot of it, a lot of AI use case, I'm just like, well, if Google wasn't shitty still, like if Google was worked like it did 20 years ago, we wouldn't need any of this stuff. You could just Google it. But uh listen, uh that's been an hour. Uh and I I gotta run uh in a second. But this has been really nice, man. Thank you so much for uh for doing the podcast, man. Thanks for all the art that you make. Uh I'll give you a chance here to uh to plug anything that you're plugging whatsoever, whether it's like literally, you could just ask, hey, if any band wants uh an artist, you know, if any big enough band that can afford an artist in residency or whatever. Uh plug away, man.
SPEAKER_01Oh no. I I I appreciate anyone that is listening. Um you can check me out, Evan M. Cohen on all social media and my website, Evan M. Cohen. Um, yeah, I just love making art. I love uh listening to music. Um check out Bibio. I love Bibio. Um check out uh if you're not into the dead, I give I say give them a second chance. Uh nice and yeah, learn an instrument. I think that's now more than ever, uh when I'm done working at at night, I pick up the guitar and it's like another part of my brain that I am so happy that I you know I I didn't pick it up until I was 30. So this has been a very cool experience to feel like I'm not too old to learn a new trick. And uh it has given me a new perspective on everything, especially music. So anyone who's listening, pick up an instrument and uh check me out. Uh thank you, Kyle. It's been nice catching up, man. It's been good seeing you.
SPEAKER_00That's awesome, man. Yeah, we gotta go uh we gotta hit up Josh and see if he wants to go back to meeting or something like that. Do it. Yeah, Josh, if you're still listening. Yeah. There's a call. We gotta meet your kid. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Cool, man. Well, let's do this again sometime.
SPEAKER_00Thanks to stuff, like we got blocking.