What The Hell Is Toxic Masculinity? And Are Women Confusing Men? EP. 5

What does “toxic masculinity” actually mean—and is it helping or hurting the conversation?

In this episode of the Broken Perspective Podcast, we dive into one of the most talked-about (and misunderstood) topics online today. From social media narratives to real-world experiences, we break down the growing tension between men and women, and ask some uncomfortable—but necessary—questions.

• Are labels like “toxic masculinity” doing more harm than good?
• Why are men feeling more hesitant in how they interact with women?
• Are unrealistic expectations shaping modern relationships?
   
  
  

This isn’t a scripted debate—it’s a raw, honest conversation between two guys trying to make sense of what we’re all seeing play out in real time.

We talk about:

• The confusion men face in today’s social climate
• The role of social media in shaping expectations
• Masculinity, femininity, and whether balance still exists
• Real-life examples of how these dynamics show up day-to-day
• What actually makes a “good man” (and why they might be overlooked)
   
  
  

Whether you agree, disagree, or fall somewhere in the middle—this episode is meant to challenge perspectives and spark real conversation.

Appreciate you all for tuning in! Be sure to share some feedback or differing perspectives. We welcome it all. For most the action, follow us on Instagram: 

https://www.instagram.com/brokenperspectivepodcast?igsh=NTc4MTIwNjQ2YQ%3D%3D&utm_source=qr

Transcript

SPEAKER_06 0:00

Welcome to Broken Perspective Podcast, where we challenge beliefs to learn from others and aim to be better people.

SPEAKER_04 0:06

My name is Colby. And I'm Jeff. Today we're going to be talking about toxic masculinity.

SPEAKER_03 0:12

What?

SPEAKER_04 0:14

Bro, what are you talking about, man? Whatever that means.

SPEAKER_06 0:18

Look, if you scroll social media for more than five minutes, you're probably going to hear it. Women don't need men, masculinity is toxic, violence is bad. But then in the same breath, it's where are all the good men at? So which one is it? Do we need more masculinity? Do we need softer men? Or is toxic masculinity just another buzzword used to describe things that we don't like? But before we get into that, Jeff, what are we drinking today?

SPEAKER_04 0:47

Today, all the way from Germany, we are going to be trying one of their Heffenweisens, the Paulenner.

SPEAKER_06 0:54

Is that how you say it?

SPEAKER_04 0:55

Yeah. Most people say Paul, but I guess it's Paul.

SPEAKER_06 0:59

Any Germans out there, please uh correct us.

SPEAKER_04 1:02

You'd have Kozak come back. He's German. All right. All right, the poor challenge. This is uh This is where we failed in so many times before.

SPEAKER_06 1:14

Patience. Take your time.

SPEAKER_04 1:17

It's not one of my virtues. Mmm. Approximately 10 hours later. But like I'm not really. We're going slow pouring and it's still creating it.

SPEAKER_06 1:28

Yeah, sorry for you guys having to wait for us to finish pouring our beers. The show will continue, I promise. Alright, cheers. Cheers, mate. Yep. And then let me get a I'll have to wait a second for that taste. So we'll see how much um trouble we can get in with this conversation.

SPEAKER_04 1:47

This is gonna some people are gonna be upset by this conversation, but we we we attack it with good intentions, but with honest and authentic uh conversation, and maybe it will uh get us thinking differently, and or maybe it'll lead people to disliking us. We'll have to wait and see.

SPEAKER_06 2:06

The key is for our audience and listeners to know we always welcome feedback. We're just a couple of dudes talking about our experiences and observations and things that maybe we find funny, or you know, so and we might have a bias on this topic.

SPEAKER_04 2:21

I think we probably do. I think we probably do. Based on the intro, probably do.

SPEAKER_06 2:26

Yeah, but uh okay, well let's jump into it. So um, this is something that we're seeing a lot on social media and online platforms nowadays, is women out there preaching that they don't need men.

SPEAKER_02 2:41

Because men are useless. In case you forgot that men are awful, do we need men? No, do we need men?

SPEAKER_06 2:47

Honestly, no, and that they can do pretty much without us. And the question is, is this pushing men like further away from women that are taking those positions? Like, what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_04 3:04

Well, I think it's you know, social media likes to do a great job of uh dividing us, and obviously to go into an extreme example of being having women uh in a very outspoken feminist movement to say, hey, we don't uh need men. And then you also see uh like a little bit of pushback on the other side of it, and um, you know, it it's brought up uh different characters who are like you know speaking on behalf of uh men a lot. So you got you, you know, your Andrew Tates and you know they're speaking up uh for for men, but I don't I don't know if it's pushing men away. I think men uh always are desirous of women, uh, but I think it it it makes it difficult for uh a lot of men, especially young men, uh to maybe take an approach, especially now. I know if if I think if women are you know outspoken that they don't need men, like that's probably not the most approachable woman. Like, why would you as a man want to sign up for that? But um at the same time, it's like how do you know those things unless you get that interaction? And let me ask you this. I mean, as a father to a daughter, right? Do you have like some sort of like are you um I don't want to say influence him, but are do you try to raise your daughter with a kind of an independent mindset where you're like, hey, listen, you don't want your daughter to be dependent and grow up to be like, I need somebody to survive. Like, how do you how do you uh as a father kind of look at the situation?

SPEAKER_06 4:47

Yeah. Well, first of all, I would say, like, I really try not to subscribe to broad labels of any kind. And this goes for like whether you're talking about races, professions, gender roles. I honestly think the whole idea of toxic masculinity and subscribe, you know, you know, asserting a label for such a broad thing is just it doesn't work very well. I think it it only serves to divide and cause like agitation for people.

SPEAKER_04 5:18

Well, it's a buzzword that always seems to be changing its its meaning. Yeah, what does that mean?

SPEAKER_06 5:23

It's absolutely a buzzword, and because a lot of the things that we could find trait-wise that are considered masculine or toxic are also traits that are really needed in society. So when it comes to my daughter though, I don't know, I teach her to be independent. I teach both my kids to be independent, I teach them to be free-thinking individuals. And as far as needing other people, like I mean, I think it's just nature that we are all different in our own unique ways, whether that's man, woman, or any other, you know, like trait you can describe. But I think we're all here to complement each other. It makes me think, and this is probably something we're gonna talk about later, but the idea of equality, I don't know what the obsession is with always trying to identify people as equal.

SPEAKER_04 6:16

Right.

SPEAKER_06 6:17

Men are very different than women in many ways, and this is something we can talk about, but like the things that guys do, our tendencies, and obviously there's always outliers, but our tendencies are very, you know, we look at patterns more broadly, we're different, we're less nurturing, we're less giving, we're less um, you know, we're we're really focused on more of like the risk taking and you know the the the more laborish jobs and things like that. More physical we're more physical than women typically are. Right. And that's not to say no women are that way, but it's just not the norm. Right. And I don't know how much that is truly a social construct, the way we operate and the way we teach children, like women should do certain roles, men should do certain roles. Right. I don't know how much that plays into it rather than it being just a natural thing. Um, but I think we're all built to complement each other. You know, it was funny. I was reading a stat the other day about like workplace injuries. 90% of workplace like fatalities are are men. Because we're doing dumb shit.

SPEAKER_04 7:23

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_06 7:24

We're doing dumb shit all the time. We take risks, we do things that women would be like, why would you do that? I think women are very much more long-term focused, or we're just kind of like the instant, this is what I'm gonna do now because it's fun, or it brings adrenaline kind of thing.

SPEAKER_04 7:39

Right. And I think I mean I would say I agree, and I I think I don't want to say like a negative, but I think women um tend to worry a little bit more uh than men do. That's why we have some of our I don't want to say like egregious behavior. Like sometimes the things we do are like that's kind of dumb because we didn't really think about the the consequences of that act. And maybe that's what they are referring to when they talk about toxic masculinity. It's yeah, it's doing dumb shit and uh not really thinking about the consequences of it. Um but I think it's also an important role um when talking about raising a a family is I think the mother oftentimes is the more nurturing, is the more concerned about things, and it's kind of a the role of the father to step in and be like, you know, let's let's just let that happen and let them learn from their own mistakes and and maybe you know, you see where it goes. You know, it's like the kid falls and scrapes his knee. I think um most women their natural instinct is to come out there and and uh scoop the child up and take care of it. And I think the masculine man would sit there and be like, he's fine, rub some dirt on it. That's at least how my dad would have spoken to me at the time. And um, you know, the mom nowadays may turn and look at the dad with says just rub some dirt on it and be like, That's stupid, it's gonna be infected. And the dad might go, hey, just leave it. He'll be fine. And so I don't know where that where that the the pluses and minuses because we're just a totality of all the things. And that's why I think it is important to have a father and a mother um raising the child. And it's not to say, I mean, you came from a single mom um household and you turned out great. My parents were split um like to my earliest memory. Um so I got to kind of see both sides of that, and there's definitely pluses and minuses that go into it. Um, and probably some of my um my more caring traits come from my mom, and some of my more destructive traits come from my dad, but my work ethic and stuff were also my toughness was also contributed to my father, and there's there's a a blessing to that.

SPEAKER_06 10:02

Yeah. Like most things in life, I think it's about balance. And so you need the nurture, but you also need the uh the tough love. Absolutely. As well. Because too much of one without the other, you you know, you don't know how to operate in a world that is let's face it, the world is not always sunshine and rainbows. The world can be a pretty tough and scary place. And if you were always coddled as a child by, you know, more of a nurturing figure, yeah. I don't know how that would set you up for success. And I think you're right to point out like you need both.

SPEAKER_04 10:33

Enabling is to me like a bad word. Um, tough love for a lot of people is a bad, a bad phrase, but to me, I think it needs to be a balance of both. Like you need to pick people up when they're struggling, have empathy for them. Uh, and I think women do that at a at a much better rate. But I think, and I think guys tend to, uh, the masculine role tends to have a more of a tough love. But yeah, having one without the other, like having all of one is is not great.

SPEAKER_06 11:06

So where do you think some of this comes from though?

SPEAKER_04 11:08

Well, I think it's like I said earlier, it to me it's just like the buzzword, it's like I'm not really sure what that means. Like the toxic mascul masculinity, just like you hear uh men being referred to oftentimes nowadays as narcissistic, like it just happens, you know, they splits uh you know, it's like I think it's like nine percent of uh people have the ability to be like named narcissistic, and but like I think they polled like a bunch of women and uh in divorces and like 50% of them are like, Yeah, my husband was narcissistic. And I'm like, I'm not really even sure what that word means anymore. Um because it just gets thrown thrown around so much. But I think it is uh detrimental because um i if if you play into that, right? Like if you're trying to adjust your behavior um in one way, shape, or form to not be this or not be that, to a label that social media. And I like we've said so much, it sucks, you know, kind of we're using a social media platform. But but it is very um it can send messages. And it's like a previous episode where we're talking about what's your North Star, what what are you figuring out, like where are you getting your guidance from? And if it's social media, it can it'll facilitate things that you already believe, and you know, the algorithms play into a certain way, so you'll just keep believing um in some of the toxic stuff that you bring into your into your head.

SPEAKER_06 12:39

Yeah, and social media is so influential today because we spend so much time on it, it's so visual. Um on the point of women, I don't I don't I don't like using these generalities even. So those who are listening today, when I say women patient with that. Yeah, when I say women today, I'm I'm really not trying to paint a broad stroke across all women. We're talking about a a specific subset of girls that are online, but they're influential nonetheless.

SPEAKER_04 13:09

They're influencers, that's their job.

SPEAKER_06 13:11

They're influencers, and they're they're preaching these things that men are listening to, young, impressionable men, boys, or women, or or rather, or other women. They're preaching these things like you don't need a man, we can do everything that a man can do. We you know, we can provide for ourselves, we can be independent, which those things saying that sounds like, well, of course, why not, right? But is that really the most healthiest mindset to have when talking about relationships and really just being successful in life? And you know, you were talking, we were talking the other day about, you know, maybe I think it was a podcast you were watching where women are always online preaching these high standards of what they want in a man, right? Like you gotta be six, yeah. Yeah, you gotta be six foot tall, you gotta make six figures.

SPEAKER_00 13:59

No, if he doesn't own a house that's over seven million dollars, I won't date him.

SPEAKER_06 14:05

Blah, blah, blah. Gotta have a six-pack. Yeah. You know, like to me, I'm like, is there such a thing as almost like toxic femininity?

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Yeah, I would say so. I mean, and again, it's we we love that we get to kind of be the controllers of what we want, right? We talked about it, like we're responsible what we want, what we're attracted to is kind of our own preference. Um so yeah, it's it's if you you know, if a woman wants to desire a guy that has to be, you know, six one, six two, it's like that's their preference. Um if they want to have these, you know, guys that make six figures and beyond have a six pack, it's like, well, most people aren't that. Most guys, it's like that's like one percent of guys get to check all those boxes. So when women are desirous of that person, what what value what makes them one percent? What are guys looking in the con, like in the the opposite? Like, what are guys looking for that are that would check that would eliminate 99% of women and leave one percent? And the the reality is I I don't think we have I don't want to say the standards, but I don't think that we have as many like check boxes that eliminate.

SPEAKER_06 15:27

Yeah. I was thinking of a funny video I see, and maybe you've seen it, I don't know, but it's on Instagram where the guy goes out with uh you don't see it initially, but he goes up to women and he's like, he's interviewing them on the street and he says, like, does height matter in a guy? Right. And initially the women are all like, yeah, absolutely it matters, blah, blah, blah. And he's like, okay, and then he pulls out a scale and he sets it down in front of him, and they get super offended. They're like, what the hell? And he's like, Well, a guy can't change his height, but a girl can change her weight.

SPEAKER_00 16:12

You're ridiculous.

SPEAKER_03 16:15

You're ridiculous.

SPEAKER_06 16:16

Like, is this a double standard of like all these things that women preach about men and what we should and shouldn't do?

SPEAKER_04 16:23

Yeah, absolutely. It's it's but I think beyond social media, I think the proximity to options um can be can be uh detrimental to people, right? Like, you know, I have family that um live in a small community or small town. Um and it's funny how many like you know, high school sweethearts are married, still happily married, have wonderful families who the children have high school sweethearts and they're married, and then you kind of come into a city. Like you look at a s a city and you know, there's so many options that I feel like that's what creates a little bit of the um some of the issues, right? Like with social media, like I imagine women just get tons of DMs, attractive women just get tons of options thrown thrown at them, even to the point of like celebrities and uh you know athletes and all these these options, and that they're like, that's what I'm looking for. Um but guys are oftentimes hunting for sex, and women are the gatekeepers of sex. And women I think oftentimes are looking for marriage, and men are the kind of the gatekeepers of marriage. So it's like they really want like it's like opposing battles and who wins in that one. And so I think women can be like, oh, I want this, this, this, this, this. Well, maybe you'll find a guy that has that's six foot three, you know, has a six-pack, makes all the money, but you can't get him to marry you. And then they're like, Well, I'm not gonna settle then for the five eight guy who makes eighty thousand because I've had a six-three guy. It's like, well, that's what you're searching for and what he's searching for in that dynamic is is different. And maybe because it there's so many options, it it kind of clouds um some of the real priorities that are important that create um long-lasting relationships and marriages.

SPEAKER_06 18:34

So are you saying women basically women control the entry point for a relationship, whereas guys kind of control the whether it's gonna go long term or not?

SPEAKER_04 18:47

I think so. Because if you look at it, and again, I'm speaking out of context, so I'd love uh any listeners to chime in on that, but you hear things about like whatever Tinder or different things where they're swiping. And guys will just swipe like yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_06 19:07

Standards are much lower.

SPEAKER_04 19:08

Right. It's like, yes, I'm swiping, yes. And then girls will be like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 19:15

And I get thousands of messages every day from attractive guys that cannot get a date, and the messages are fing.

SPEAKER_04 19:25

Well, the reason why the guys are swiping is because they're interested in the sexual part of it, and women can say no because they're probably having so many people say yes that they're like, ah, no, thanks. But then in terms of keeping those relationships, maybe the guy wants something different, and you're like, Listen, I that was too easy, I'm not interested in you, I'm looking for something different. Um, in terms of a marriage, and it's like the like I said, I think the men are often the gatekeepers of marriage, um, and that's why women are desirous of it, and then women are the gatekeepers to sex, and that's why guys will often hunt so aggressively towards that.

SPEAKER_06 20:09

Yeah, it's an interesting dynamic. It is, but it kind of shows like there are differences, like just in nature, right? If you take all the uh social constructs, if you will, out of the equation, you just look at we do operate differently, we both offer something different in terms of value. Like our value proposition is different from that of a woman's, where a woman they have comfort, you know. Typically, what when you think of a what a woman offers, right? And maybe I'm wrong, this is just me, but like they offer comfort, you know, hopefully like someone who can cultivate a peaceful home for you to come home to after battle in history or today just working hard doing some bullshit job you don't like to do, right? They offer comfort, you know, a peaceful home, the ability to nurture and raise children.

SPEAKER_04 20:57

Right. Provide a loving, warming, nurturing, empathetic. Like that's what they're their superpower is very often that. I think it's in, you know, I don't want to say in their DNA, but it's kind of they're built for that. That's why they tend to be, you know, nurses. That's why they tend to be or work in like care facilities. And I think that like it's very obvious, and I think it's ridiculous that we often turn a blind eye saying that they're not. You know, it's like you go to very often, very much like HR departments filled with women, dispatchers and law enforcement, women. Early childhood education. Yeah. Women. Women. Like I haven't when my kids went to kindergarten or like preschool, like there wasn't an abundance of dudes working there.

SPEAKER_06 21:50

Now, is that because dudes are afraid to be teachers? Or do you think it's just we don't like that role?

SPEAKER_04 21:57

I think that role doesn't fit naturally with most. Of us with most men, it doesn't fit naturally.

SPEAKER_06 22:02

Right. And do you see that as a bash on men? No, not at all. Do you see it as a negative that we don't have a bunch of guys like like why don't you or why don't we see men marching in the streets saying like we need more early childhood educators? We're underrepresented in this field.

SPEAKER_04 22:21

Yeah, I don't think most men like go on strike and got like it's just I don't I just don't think it's something But we see the the the opposite though. Yeah, I guess that's not true. I guess it just matters, it matters on what the the the topic is. It's like I think if if a man wanted to do that profession, he would just get into it. He would just be like, okay, I'm gonna just go attack it. Um I think a lot of times with um like with feminists, they uh you know they try to attack the things that are harder, the obstacles that are maybe harder to get in, because maybe it's like maybe men do put uh uh limitations on what they think uh women can do. So we take it like law enforcement or something. There's not an abundance of women in law enforcement, it's growing, and again, they add significant value to it, but there are some things that make it difficult. I mean, you've run our um physical agility test numerous times, and almost any time there's somebody who can't get over the wall, it's almost always a woman.

SPEAKER_06 23:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 23:32

And the problem is it's like if I'm fighting on the other side of that fence and you can't get over the fence, you can't help. And that's the thing. And so for like for men, that's like that, I don't, I don't like that. But for um 99% of the job, they could probably do a great job. But that one part, so I think feminists try to get in there like, no, we need more more women in that profession. Maybe they're right, maybe they're wrong, but at the same time, it's like I think for most men, especially in law enforcement, it's like, I don't care if you're a man or a woman, I just need you to be able to do the job.

SPEAKER_06 24:10

Right. And there's clearly there's men, because we're gonna get people that point out there's men out there that can't do the job either. 100%. While that is true, that is not the majority, though. And as someone who, like you just stated, has run hiring processes and physical agility exams for law enforcement. I was always like super excited when I saw girls come out and apply. And it was a breath of fresh air to see it. What was sad though is like you also stated, when there's only the one or two people who can't get over the wall and it's the one girl that's there, it kind of does suck because, well, there wasn't four or five more girls behind her that did get over the wall.

SPEAKER_04 24:53

You know? She's usually like the one or one of two that yeah, and it stands out.

SPEAKER_06 24:57

And I don't know if that I don't know if the physical side of law enforcement and what it demands is the is the discouragement for more women to apply, or is it something else? So women out there who have thoughts on this, feel free to chime in and give us your opinion or or give us feedback.

SPEAKER_04 25:16

Or maybe it goes into what we were talking about before with the kind of reckless behavior. I mean, with gunfire, it's like I have to run towards gunfire. My wife would be like, that's stupid, that's crazy. And you're like, you're right. But it sounds funny. That's not anyone that's not not that it's in front, but it's like it's what I'm here to do. Like, right, I can do that. And um that's not only my job, it's like even if it wasn't my job, that's what I would do. Um, because I don't, and maybe I'm speaking on behalf of a lot of men in our profession, it's like I don't hold my life in extreme value. I would lay down my life for others. And um not everybody would do that, but like it's like it's something that I've come to terms with and come to grips with. And again, I don't value myself high, like, but my family does. And so I I take that and I value my family and I their opinions on it. But ultimately, it's like if I if I lost my life in the line of duty tomorrow, you know, saving a kid from a a dangerous situation or you know, saving anybody, like it's just I would hope that would be an honorable way to go. And what greater gift can you give to somebody else?

SPEAKER_06 26:39

Yeah, for sure. And going back to the the profession thing, I always wonder like what the push is to have this like great equality. You know, you hear it in law enforcement now today, like the 30 for 30. You know, like we're gonna have 30% of women or 30% of law enforcement's gonna be all women. You look at other professions too that are there's no there's not really any barriers for women to participate in, like being a mason or a a roofing person or a construction worker, or all these trades that are predominantly male dominated? Right. I don't know what the barriers are to those professions, and yet there's still 90% of those workers are men. My qu I guess my question is do women even want to work those positions? And if not, why are we pushing so hard for this equality and everything? Can we not recognize that women and men have equal value but have unequal skills, desires, traits?

SPEAKER_04 27:46

Well, yeah, I mean, it's I don't think I've ever seen a push to get women into those professions because I don't think there's a supply and demand and I don't think there's much demand. So I think that has a uh a big impact on that. Now, if there was like an abundance of women trying to get into that profession and you know, going back to law enforcement, one of the things that I think that has caused uh frustration, which again creates a little bit of a divide, or it's when the standards get lowered and you're like, okay, again, we talked about the wall, because again, that's the greatest obstacle that um that we've seen in from first hand experience that women have a difficult, more difficult time getting over the wall for whatever reason.

SPEAKER_06 28:37

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 28:38

And I gave the example it's like if I'm fighting for my life on the other side of that fence, which I have been in fights in the backyards of places and it's just me and them, and we're fighting on the ground. And it's like if they can't get there and help me, that's that's a very dangerous position to be in. Um so I need them to be able to get over that fence. I need them to be able to get over the wall. But if we're like, hey, listen, it's not that big a deal, maybe that situation never arises. Um but you so then what do cities do and what do places do? They go, well, we need more women, so we don't need them to be able to get over the wall.

SPEAKER_06 29:19

Yeah, let's cut that from the process.

SPEAKER_04 29:20

Yeah, let's cut that from the process because it's not really fair. Well, that doesn't change the fact that I need somebody to get over that fucking fence. I need somebody to get there. And so then it becomes almost I don't want to say an animosity, I'm talking totally fictitious here, but um it it does create some sort of like resentment when you're like, hey, we need this, like a city goes, hey, we need more women in this, that's fine. And you know, I've been on SWAT teams and stuff like that, where they're like, no, we're we're open to a woman being on the SWAT team, so long as we don't have to drop the standard. If they can do the standard, they can meet the qualifications that we're asking, hell yeah. And many women do that's been universally like everybody on the SWAT team was like, we will absolutely accept a woman on this SWAT team if they can do these things.

SPEAKER_06 30:14

Right. And there are many women out there nowadays that are fighting for those positions and are successful, and are getting them. Yeah, absolutely. It is hard work, but there's women doing it, right? Which is a great thing. But again, like you said, lowering standards just to make that happen, like shouldn't be an option. Correct. Shouldn't be an option. Yeah. Um, I wanted to talk about a couple things going back to how some women speak about the lack of need for men and how they're independent and all that stuff, and more specifically, and what sort of impact that has on guys out there and how they respond or interact. And I have an example that I can give to address like what I'm talking about because I think it causes confusion with how are men supposed to interact with women based upon what we're seeing on social media. So, for example, women are you know preaching the independence, they don't need men, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, my wife and I, we used to own a wood shop and we would often go to Home Depot and get supplies, like on a regular basis. Right. And there's been several occasions where my wife has come home and given me like scenarios that happened, and she's like, Could you believe that happened? And we have a discussion about it. But some of the scenarios are like this like she's struggling with plywood to put it onto a metal cart, and dudes just look at her, they acknowledge her, they just keep walking.

SPEAKER_05 31:43

Right.

SPEAKER_06 31:44

And so she thinks to herself, like, the fuck? Like, what kind of man are you to not like help me?

SPEAKER_05 31:50

Right.

SPEAKER_06 31:50

Like she would gladly take the assistance of a man coming by to help her, not because she's a woman, but just because it's the right thing to do. And we talk about this, and then sometimes the question comes up is do you think those men might not have wanted to offend you? Because there are also women out there that if you were to go over there and help them lift something, that their response could be, Oh, you think because I'm a woman, I need your help?

SPEAKER_02 32:17

I'm literally shaking right now because I just had a man approach me in a parking lot. He's excuse me, medicine. I don't know why in the hell he was approaching me or what he was trying to do. And before he, I mean, he was probably 30 feet from me when he said, excuse me, ma'am. And I turned around and I literally yelled at him and I said, Do not approach me. No male, no male should ever approach a woman in a parking lot.

SPEAKER_03 32:40

Ever. When you say a man should not ever approach a woman ever in the parking lot, how do you know that the man wasn't possibly trying to help you?

SPEAKER_06 32:50

And like how shitty would that feel as a guy who's just coming in to do the right thing and help, right?

SPEAKER_05 32:56

Right.

SPEAKER_06 32:56

So there's this confusion of like, based upon how women are presenting themselves online, of do you want masculine men? Do you want us to be there and help you out? Or should we stay back and be like, you got it? Right. You know, like it's almost like the idea of holding a door for a woman, too. Like, should we just let the door go because women don't want to be offended that they think that's traditional and we need to do that? Right. Or should we just do it because it's the right thing to do? Right.

SPEAKER_04 33:23

And that's maybe the maybe that's overthinking it. Maybe that's the influence that social media have. Like, dude, go help. Like, yeah, if they don't want it, then walk away and just put your hands up and be like, all right, good luck to you then. Um, but I've never experienced that. Like me personally, I've never experienced um offering help to somebody who clearly, even if it was an elderly person with a woman, whatever the case was, it's like you can see when somebody somebody's struggling. Yeah. I think it's always um, but maybe that's why we're having this conversation, is because some people won't step up and and do that. And who knows what their reason are. Maybe they're just people that are just maybe they're like, well, if she can't do it, I can't do it. I don't want to fail at this. And they worry about things about looking like an idiot or something. I I I can't put myself necessarily in in those shoes. Yeah. But it's gross.

SPEAKER_06 34:25

And I and I agree. I think and that's where maybe you and I are different than other guys out there that are leaning more towards the hands-off approach. The reality is though, there are guys out there that behave that way. And we've observed, I mean, this is our you know, our production studio here, and there was a time me and my wife were carrying a really large whiteboard home, like one of those big ones you put for like coaching on the wall. Same as like 200 pounds. Me and my wife are carrying it down, and she's on one end, really struggling. I'm on the other end, and I don't know who the dude was, just some random here in the building. And we're going down the stairs with this thing, and he looks at he's specifically looks at my wife, he's like, Oh, that looks heavy, you got it? And she's like, She's kind of like, she says yes, but like she's clearly struggling. And the dude just stands there while we keep trotting downstairs and doesn't help. Like you're saying, you don't get that, like you would just help because it's the right thing to do, as would I, right? But again, like time and time again, do I see these things happening? Like, guys literally will watch and not help. And it's almost like I'm giving them the benefit of doubt. Like, maybe they're not helping because they don't want to offend. Because what other reason would they not help? Are they really just that lazy of a person? Or you know what I mean? Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 35:46

You know, going back to your, you know, your initial statement about oftentimes you'll hear, and I've actually heard this um from women directly where they'll they'll they'll make mention of like where are all the good guys at? Um and what are your thoughts um when you hear or what are your reactions, because I know you've you've heard it as well, but what are your responses when when you hear um a woman say that?

SPEAKER_06 36:21

I mean, my my initial thought is the dudes are there, open your eyes. I think it goes to the point of you, of what you mentioned earlier about many women are putting these these barriers and these like high expectations of what a good man is.

SPEAKER_05 36:40

Right.

SPEAKER_06 36:41

And I don't think the the things that they're putting or labeling a good man necessarily align with what a truly good man is.

SPEAKER_04 36:50

Right.

SPEAKER_06 36:50

You know, because if we're talking about physical characteristics and traits, well, that's only going to get you so far. Whereas a lot of good men, they're all around you. Like they're they're the doers of the world, they're the guys that are just putting their head down, working, making a living, not making a spectacle of their lives, maybe not putting their emotions and their feelings all over social media. You know, they're just they're just contributing, they're there. But what many women are likely looking for, and I don't again I hate saying many women, but the one with the ones we're talking about, they're looking for that the guy that's the hard worker, the provider, the strong protector, but also handsome, funny, but also handsome, funny, six foot five, like has to hide available. Right. Well, and I think it's been said before, but like that's like probably three percent of the population that meets all that criteria.

SPEAKER_05 37:47

Right.

SPEAKER_06 37:47

So when I hear girls say, Where are the good men at, like, they're probably right in front of you.

SPEAKER_04 37:54

Right.

SPEAKER_06 37:54

They're probably right in front of you. But they don't want those guys. So so I guess really my response would be, what do you want? Yeah. Like truly, what do you? Not the superficial, I want these character traits. Like, what do you really want?

SPEAKER_04 38:08

Yeah, what like if you had to just sit there and say, like, what are the top three and most important things that attributes uh I think a lot of women would would venture to say, like, I want somebody who who makes me feel safe. Right? I think that's a that'd probably be a pretty common one. I want somebody who um can express themselves and uh communicate effectively. Like I think that would be in that realm.

SPEAKER_06 38:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 38:38

Um and then, you know, uh reliable, dependable. I think that's what they I think those would be pretty consistent, and maybe those are kind of overlap a little bit because that would kind of be safe. Um some level of ambition. Right. Has a has a purpose, whatever his purpose is, I think. But do you think nowadays that women are wanting that? But the problem is is it's hard to get past like the overall appearance. And I think when ultimately I think that's the roadblock for a lot of us is just attractiveness. Like what is the attractiveness level? I have to be attracted to this person to even give them a chance to know these things and um or to know enough about him to give them that. And that may be why where I was talking alluded to earlier about social media, it's well, there's so many attractive guys, but maybe they don't, you know, they don't fill those, they don't check those boxes, and so they don't give the people that they're not attracted to, which is fair. Like, yeah, it's I would I couldn't even imagine trying to be in a relationship with somebody that I wasn't attracted to. That'd be weird.

SPEAKER_06 40:00

Right. But does it have to be the highest level of attraction? Could it be okay? This is maybe not the typical girl that I would go for, but she is attractive, just not to the highest level. Let me give her a chance because maybe she does check the more important long-term boxes that I'm looking for.

SPEAKER_04 40:19

Right. But can and then but on the inverse, it's like that's women looking for that. Um and from the some of the studies I read, it's like those often can lead to marriages. Um but um from what I understand is a lot of times in those marriages, um, because the woman's not completely attracted to the male, that's when the the the the sex life you know diminishes. And you know, we were talking about the attributes that women are looking for. If you throw that into to men, if you're talking about that, sex is gonna be in the top two of pretty much every guy. That's an important attribute. I think as you get older, it's like peace is a huge one. Like in a in a spouse or in a relationship, it's like I want somebody who brings peace to me, and then sex is a uh the probably number two, and those might even be exchange for some, but it's definitely they're all like sex is in the top three. So then you have a a a wife who's maybe not doesn't have a sexual desire because her husband's not attracted, but how long can that relationship maintain? Right.

SPEAKER_06 41:40

And I don't think these character traits were not character traits, these traits in general that we're discussing, I don't think they're exclusive to men versus women. I think they're just most people would generally go for similar traits, like like I said, peace, being able to communicate effectively, um, you know, providing some level of like security, secure feeling. Uh the attraction level, I think that is a big component. The sexual component is is big. But maybe I'll disagree a little bit and say maybe that I don't know that that would be my top one or two. Because here's the thing what do you like? There's relationships that are out there where a spouse comes down with some major illness or injury or whatever, and could you know, like you become a caretaker almost for the other person, right? So sex is out of the equation, more than likely. Right. Could you still have a really, really deep, good, meaningful relationship and partnership with that person when they can no longer provide that for you?

SPEAKER_04 42:51

Absolutely. No, I I think, and that's a a great way of thinking about it. Um, I think yes, but what I think where I'm referring to is if one partner's depriving, like a sexual relationship it kind of reaffirms to a lot of guys that things are okay. Um so having you know the wife maybe not be interested in that, um, I think really wears on the guy's why. It's like, okay, do I feel valued? Am I am I appreciated? And sometimes just that act um kind of confirms some of that. Now, if you know somebody uh suffers some sort of horrific thing where that I can't hold that against them and you're gonna you're gonna continue to you know care for them, provide for them, and do all the different things. Like you can't get bitter. Maybe you can be bitter about the existence or that that that that's going on, but you don't hold it to the person versus the partner that's just unwilling to do that.

SPEAKER_06 43:52

And then it's more it's less about the sexual act and what you get out of it, and it's more about like the fact that you're Significant other desires you.

SPEAKER_04 44:02

Correct. I think men search for appreciation and a little bit of gratefulness. And I think that's where the feminist, you know, kind of thought process of being like, I can do everything that a man can do. And, you know, based on the economy and the housing market or whatever, it's like you almost it's so much more advantageous to have uh you know a couple that both bring in income, right? It's advantageous financially to do that. Um but with that, it's like sometimes if the uh the female half's the breadwinner and the guy doesn't feel like his contributions are being appreciated, it kind of can diminish them. And I don't know, again, if that's a sociological effect or if that's just in their DNA, like I don't know, but um I know I would probably have an issue with that. Like, not that I want my I don't want my wife to make money, like that that'd be crazy. Um, I do value her job and what she provides, but like I said in a previous podcast, like so much of my drive and my goals of being successful are really to try to keep her and impress her um and show that you know I'm providing for this family, and that's that's my why. And if I didn't have the ability to do that, I would feel somewhat diminished and be like, look, I'm not even providing for my family. Like, what kind of a man am I? And whether that's right or wrong or indifferent, that that's how my simple ass brain thinks about it.

SPEAKER_06 45:41

Yeah, but it makes sense. Like you want, you want to feel desired, you want to feel some level of not need. It's not like you want to feel needed, but you want to feel like you're contributing to someone's life and they value it. And if you had a partner who was acting like, I don't need you, right? I don't think that would feel very good.

SPEAKER_04 46:00

No, it'd be it'd be gross. My wife, bless her heart. Like, I wish if I could take a trait from her and be able to emulate it, she notices everything I do. Like everything I do, she notices. Like if I sweep, I do the laundry, she's always just thank you, thank you. I saw, oh, thank you for doing that. And sometimes I'm not as observant about that, and I can tell it bothers her. I think she's learned, but and I'm very appreciative of it. I just don't notice it as quickly as she does. She notices it, and her thanks and her appreciation uh for the things that I do, um you know, fills my bucket and it's like you're absolutely welcome. I'll do I'll endure so much bullshit. I'll endure so much hard work and blah blah blah for a thank you and appreciation on the other end of it. And I think when that gets taken away, where it's like I expect you to do this, that's then it's like, okay, it's no longer appreciated, it's expected. And that's where I think it becomes kind of gross when it's like, let's just appreciate like my expectations sometimes of in my last agency or different jobs that I've had, it's like I expect nothing from my coworkers. And then anytime they do something, I'm super appreciative of it. That way I'm always thankful. Um, but if I go, if I have it in my head, I'm like, I hope they do this, this, this, this, this. And then when they don't do it, I'm frustrated. It's like that's gross. Like I created that all in my own head um that they were gonna do all these things. And they're like, but that's their job. Like, why am I having to do all this? But it's just, you know, wiring my brain in a way that goes like, let me just be thankful for the things that people do around me. And I tend to be more happy than if I have all these expectations of all the things that I expect people to do because then it usually leads to disappointment.

SPEAKER_06 48:02

Yeah. Yeah, it makes sense though. I think that's probably a lot of our problems today is just putting these expectations that are not realistic, you know, and then getting frustrated when people don't meet them.

unknown 48:15

Right.

SPEAKER_06 48:15

It's like, why should they? Right. Like, why should they meet these expectations that we self-imposed that we felt are so important, versus just going through life and being like, you know what? Just take people for who they are, what they are, and let yourself be pleasantly surprised once in a while.

SPEAKER_04 48:33

Like I have this weird analogy, like they use the glasses half full and half empty kind of analogy. Um, and I kind of I summarize it like a steak. Like if I cook a steak and it's in the fridge or whatever, and I'm expecting to come home and eat the steak and the steak's half gone. I'm like, dude, who ate half the steak? What the hell happened to my, you know, but then it's like if I came home and there was half a steak in the fridge, I'd be like, hell yeah, look at that.

SPEAKER_06 49:00

Look, right, this is great. You'd be the guy eating the heather. Right.

SPEAKER_04 49:03

So it it all is about the expectations of you know what you what you're hoping for. It's like if you're surprised with great stuff, it's like you're excited about that. But if you have these expectations, it's gonna be this, you it's easier to fall into that disappointment.

SPEAKER_06 49:16

Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I feel like this conversation is going more from and we kind of said in the beginning, like, what is toxic masculinity? Like, it really is such a buzzword that I don't even I don't quite get it myself. Right. We're almost navigating more towards like what men and women should be looking for, right? You know, in a relationship and how we should present ourselves in the best way to not push people away.

SPEAKER_04 49:48

Except and again, the word toxic is like, what does that even mean? Like, because I do think men, like we've alluded to, can have toxic traits, especially when or the the masculinity quote unquote traits lead to abuse, like physical abuse, or there are people, you know, we were working in the professions that we have, we've seen evil people, like we've seen evil people and we've seen them victimize the people around them. But are we referring to that as his masculine traits, or is he just a shitty human being who's using you know the physical strength that he has or the aggressive strength that he has, um, the controlling strength that he has on a victim. Um and yeah, those things are they're evil. I don't I wouldn't refer to them as masculine, I would just refer to them as like that's evil because not to flip it, it's like women have a different way of quote unquote being evil. Yeah, it's usually not abusive in the physical sense, even though we have arrested numerous women on domestic violence things, but there are there are ways that women can, you know, kind of sabotage and and and do things that are very destructive to men. And again, yeah, not trying to say that like men are evil, women are evil, men are great, women are great. Like we're all just we're a totality of all the things.

SPEAKER_06 51:23

Yeah, it's kind of why I said in the beginning I hate the use of these broad labels because like traits themselves, any actions that we can take, it's not good or bad, it's neutral. It's always contextual and situational. You know, like if we go through some of these quote unquote toxic traits, like take the use of violence, for example, or aggression. If I had to guess when people hear toxic masculinity, like over-aggressiveness and dominance and violence would probably be at the top of that critique, right?

SPEAKER_04 52:02

Power control using power control.

SPEAKER_06 52:04

So, like when I think about that, I'm like, okay, surface level, I can sit here and be like, well, yeah, it's not good to be aggressive, it's not good to be violent. But then when you place it in proper context, it's like, well, is it always bad? And the best example I can give is if a law enforcement officer uses a level of violence that doesn't look pretty on a suspect who is maybe a hostage taker or committing some other heinous crime that needs to be stopped. Would you call the violence used by that officer on that suspect to save an innocent party? Would you call that violence bad and toxic? I would say no. No, absolutely. I would say it was absolutely justified and needed. So violence isn't necessarily bad. Aggression isn't necessarily bad. Those things aren't toxic.

SPEAKER_04 52:57

It's how it's in and of itself, it's it's who's on the receiving end of it. There's a lot of things.

SPEAKER_06 53:03

There's a lot of context there that needs to be considered before we can just use a blanket statement like toxic masculinity. Violence is toxic, all aggression, like it's always it's always contextual. And that's my critique on the whole idea of this toxic masculinity is like, I think it's silly to throw around these buzzwords because, like we just said, is what what does that even mean? Right. Are you describing the behavior used in a bad way? Now, if you're using, you know, if you are a guy who's asserting your dominance over a like creating a victim situation, right? Then I agree.

SPEAKER_04 53:39

Right.

SPEAKER_06 53:39

But that's not the masculinity, that's not the masculine nature or the power the guy has that's bad. It's the way he's using it. It's like a tool, like anything else, right? Like a hammer is not bad, but if you hit someone over the head with a hammer, it's bad.

SPEAKER_04 53:54

Right.

SPEAKER_06 53:54

Right? Do we say tools are toxic? No, no, that'd be stupid. But we say toxic masculinity, so I don't know. I'd be curious to hear anybody who is has ever said they agree with toxic masculinity to maybe share their perspective and maybe correct us if we're not even like approaching your viewpoints correctly. But I just don't think that the using that phrase serves any good purpose.

SPEAKER_04 54:20

Right. When you were talking, and again, I don't I don't know, maybe it's on subject, maybe it's not, but it I thought of a quote that I've always liked. Um, but it uses the term violence. It's like only a person that's capable of violence can be peaceful. If you're not capable of violence, you're not peaceful, you're harmless. And I always liked that that quote because, you know, in what we do, it's like, yeah, sometimes we have to we have to go to violence. And do we want to? No. But if you're not capable of even doing that, then it's not like you're peaceful. You're just you can't do anything. You're it's like you're harmless. You're harmless, you can't do anything. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_06 55:06

Not a good thing. Let's go through a couple of the I had to look these up because before we were doing this show today, I was like, I gotta, because I really kind of naive to this whole idea of toxic masculinity, other than what I hear in social media.

SPEAKER_04 55:18

And so I looked up maybe it's probably because like people that would use that phrase probably don't openly want to come up and approach us and give us their two cents, or maybe it's like we don't spend a lot of time with people that that think that way. Like I don't I don't have a lot of like interaction with people that I would consider like feminist. Um I have you know, it's like I have interactions in my job capacity, but not like to have a philosophical conversation.

SPEAKER_06 55:50

So right. Yeah, so I had to look it up and figure out what what is even considered like like what are the main things, what are the main uh oppositions to this masculinity or toxic masculinity? And the things that it told me were uh and some of these we might even agree with, like the first one that came up was emotional repression or think of like stoicism, you know, guys not talking about their feelings. And so when I think about that one, I'm like, okay, if that's considered toxic masculinity, like telling guys or teaching guys that they shouldn't express their feelings, well, I can agree with that to a degree. Like most things, there's a time and a place. You know, and do I feel like guys should always shut down their emotions and not be open enough to talk about things that are bothering them or things that they don't like, or maybe when they feel sad, depressed, whatever. Like, no, I think you should definitely talk about those things. In fact, I would think I it is of my opinion that it's quite masculine to have the courage and the ability to speak up about how you feel. Right. But it takes some intelligence and how you how you articulate those feelings. It also takes some situational awareness and knowing when you should and should not share your emotions. For example, in law enforcement, I don't think it would be appropriate for you to, you know, on a call where you're dealing with someone else's struggle, necessarily break down and cry and start making it about you. Yeah. I think it would be completely inappropriate. Is that repressing your emotions for a time, yes. But that's not to say you shouldn't go home and talk to a friend, a spouse, a therapist about some things that were brought up. I don't think that's I don't think that's non-masculine to do that. But I again there's a time and a place for it.

SPEAKER_04 58:03

Yeah, and I think um I think we as guys probably don't do a great job of that. Like, like I talk about my friend group. Um, yeah, they'll roast you for everything. So um but also you know, women can be betrayers of that trust. You know, I think women can often say, like, oh, I want I I want somebody who is willing to open up and you know share all their feelings with me. But that makes you very vulnerable, and sometimes women don't like that. They may think they want that, and then on on the other end of that, they're like, This dude just trauma dumped me. Yeah, or even if it's just like I don't know, it's like I think it can be I think it's a protective mechan mechanism for most men. Like we were taught a lot of times by our fathers, and you know, whatever the the the code is, whatever, and you're like, okay, just keep that to yourself, keep trucking on because nobody gives a shit about our feelings. And um, I don't believe that to be true, but at the same time, if I broke down and started crying, it would it would raise some eyebrows and be like, what the fuck's going on with Jeff? Um, because that's just not in my nature. Now if I did it all the time, but like, dude, what's going on with that dude? That like so I don't know, maybe like sus society-wise, we're not prepared for that. We don't open an environment for that. Um but I also think, yeah, we um we know it's a tough world, and I think we we try to be um people of try to be people of strength. Um but when you do have sometimes a complaint or you do have a thing that really d is bothering you, who do you share that with and does it get received well or do you get attacked for it um can kind of create those um the lasting effects of whether I do it again.

SPEAKER_06 1:00:11

Do you feel like or have you experienced in your life a situation where you wanted to speak up about something a feeling that you had, and the maybe the guys that were around you your fear of their response is the only thing that kept you from saying something?

SPEAKER_04 1:00:32

Um I can't think of anything in particular, but probably. Um but also I think I've I've shared with you, um that's like one of my biggest um fears. It's like the thing unsaid. And it's not gone great for me at different places I've worked, um, because I I'm known to be a person that will speak up and say the thing um that might not be popular, but I just want to make sure everybody understands some of the uh the consequences that may be um may be there. So I I've I would say probably in my younger years, yeah, I was a little bit more apprehensive and I kept things closer to the chest and was like, no, I'm not say anything about that. Um like I wouldn't go to my friends and be like, man, I'm like in high school, like I was bullied for like an hour, and I was I wouldn't go to my friends and be like, man, that guy was bullying me. Like I wouldn't do that, though I went, I realize I have a phobia of being bullied, so we fought very shortly thereafter. I was like, I'm not gonna spend my night thinking about this, so we're fighting. Um but at the same time, um I like to just get things taken care of. So I'll I'll say the thing, and so I've become more comfortable as an adult and be like, nah, I didn't like this. That bothers me. Um, but I wouldn't want to respond emotionally because I don't think I wouldn't take that quite as seriously coming from another man. Because what like I want logical thought processes and and solutions versus an emotional response. We've seen that that oftentimes that's not the indicator of the best decision making when it's an emotional based versus a logic based. And maybe that's why we suppress some of that stuff and we're just like, nope, I'm not saying that because logically I can figure out in my head that maybe it doesn't make sense, but emotionally we're kind of torn inside because it's like I don't like that, but I don't know exactly why I don't like that so much.

SPEAKER_06 1:02:36

Yeah, but it's never really been a fear of like you are really afraid of like the response you would get. It it sounds to me it's more of you thinking my response in general wouldn't serve me very well in that moment, you know, like being bullied or whatever. And it sounds like you have more wisdom, obviously, looking, you know, looking back now. Right. You would respond differently where you would actually just say something to somebody versus, hey, let's just fight to solve it, right? Right. You know, but I think what you yeah, I think maybe it could be refreshing to some people who think that there is this toxic masculinity that guys are taught to suppress their emotions. Because that's what they're arguing, and kind of from what I'm hearing from you, is like, no, it's not necessarily the case. Like it's more of a it's a conscious evaluation on your part of should I say these things, not that I've been told I shouldn't. Does that make sense? Right. You know, and like for me, like growing up, like I certainly never was taught to not share emotions, or in fact, I grew up in a home with just two women, like my mom and my older sister, and didn't have a father. So maybe that's a unique perspective for me. And like I can't say, well, I had a father that told me to like not complain, don't cry, don't do these things. But I never cried or I never did those things, anyways. Right. You know, so I don't know if it's even a taught versus it's just naturally how men are. Like we just naturally don't like to share our emotions. So maybe my point in stating this is I don't even believe that it is a social construct that men are told to not share their emotions.

SPEAKER_04 1:04:18

Right. Well, it's like I've worked on peer sport and I've gone to some conferences and I've worked at um almost like something similar to like a West Coast trauma retreat where you have officers who've endured traumatic, very traumatic events. Um and a couple of things that help is you don't ask them like how do you feel about that? That guys don't understand really how to articulate their feelings for guys. You you very much go, like, what are your thoughts on that? And you just even the wording changes so much about how they'll respond.

SPEAKER_06 1:04:56

So, what are your thoughts on that versus how how do you feel about that?

SPEAKER_04 1:04:59

How are you feeling about that? They're like, I I don't know. What are they? I was angry, like they don't know how to express their their emotions. But if you go, what are your thoughts? They'll be like, dude, I was pissed. Like that was stupid. And then they're very much um willing to open up when you just word choice. It's amazing how much word choice matters on on things to facilitate. I've also found that, and again, I don't know why we're getting onto the like where my brain goes to get us onto this subject, but like sitting on a couch a lot of times doesn't yield the results versus taking a walk versus um you know being moving. Moving sometimes the left-right uh parts of the brain get both sides of the brain engaged, and you get um more authentic uh conversations versus you know, sitting across and be like, tell me all the things. Like guys don't really much get more defensive in that. And maybe women too. I don't know. That'd be interesting.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:01

Yeah, I think it feels like more of a formality and more awkward versus just when you're moving and being physical, you're not so hyper focused on what you're saying because your body's doing multiple things at once. So you open up a little better. Yeah, it's interesting the the word choice that you point out and how such a a simple change in the words that we use can elicit a different type of response from guys.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:28

Absolutely. But have you had any experience where maybe so as a father of a of a teenager, um what are you what do you think some of the challenges that he's gonna be in enduring um as he goes forward into high school and and and you know moving forward? Like what some are what are the concerns that maybe that this topic maybe have effect on him?

SPEAKER_06 1:06:56

For my son?

SPEAKER_04 1:06:57

Yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:06:59

Well, I mean, I think he's facing the world like we all do when we're young, and even to this day, is we're just like just just kind of reacting, experiencing how people behave around us. I don't know if it's fortunately or unfortunately with social media, they have a lot, they have a lot of things. My son will have a lot of things to like compare himself to and the way he's behaving. And I just don't know that can be good or bad, depending on what you what like you said, your guiding star, what influence is guiding your decisions and how you behave. Yeah, I guess my my hope and desire would be that my son, either through being around guys like you, guys like me, um, maybe better role models online, that my my hope is that he would be guided to just behave in a way that he always does things because they're the right thing to do, not because he's I don't want him to act out of fear. I don't think acting out of fear is ever a good response.

SPEAKER_05 1:08:07

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:08

Because you start overthinking things, you start putting these what ifs, and it can cause you to not take actions that would really benefit others, you know. So when he's, you know, navigating relationships with other girls his age, I would hope that he has the the courage and the integrity to just do what he feels is right. You know, and I don't I don't know, that'll be his own journey, right? Right. All I can hope as a father is that he has good role models around him and maybe he listens to some of the stuff that we say. I know it's not fun to listen to what your dad's advice is.

SPEAKER_04 1:08:42

Right. Or anybody else, anybody else from but but dad.

SPEAKER_06 1:08:45

But yeah, you know, I would hope that he would listen to the things and learn from our experience and you know, and just always do the right thing. I don't know. I don't I think we're so good at overcomplicating everything in life, you know, relationships, you know, our behavior, what we want. You know, this whole discussion sounds like an overcomplication of like just how to behave in a simple relationship.

SPEAKER_04 1:09:09

Right. But I think what things that we never had to deal with, um that's current. We had to deal with it in our own way, but I think with technology it changes, right? Um you know, I think we've both had the experience in in high school, middle school, whatever. Uh you asked somebody out, and that was a big deal. You're putting yourself out there in a small environment, school. Everybody kind of knows everybody, you put yourself out there. Um and they may say yes, they may say no. Both have the consequences to it, good or bad. Um, but nowadays, like coaching, um, coaching these young guys, man, they they have it different. Like they have a rough go. So from stories that I've I've heard, I've been privy to, um, like there's a lot of guys that will not, will absolutely not ask a girl out. I'm like, like, no, like, why not? And they're like, here's what, here's what they're experiencing. Um, if the girl's not interested, she would almost like take a picture of him, blast it all on social media, and be like, this guy's a creeper. He tried to ask me out. Like, he had to take a uh he had to put himself out there, which is not an easy thing to do. And they put it on, he's a creeper, they they besmirched their whole character to the world, to the every to the world, not just the school. And all the dude was just try, he tried to shoot a shot.

SPEAKER_06 1:10:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:45

And so if you have a couple of people that get an example of that and hear about that or see it and witness it, they're like, fuck no, I'm not doing that. I'm not gonna be put out there like that. I just want to keep my head down and navigate. I don't want to be the social media craze of negativity that I'm this, that, and the other. But then on the flip side of that, I've also talked to um friends who had daughters who were never asked out to like a dance, like a homecoming. And they shared me like that, their daughter's like home crying because no boy would ask. And you're like, that sucks. So you have empathy on both sides of it, but it's like it's kind of like a self-destructive behavior, which one causes the other. And it's like, but but also women have been victimized by taking that chance, right? Like, so it's kind of like it's like, how do you start an authentic relationship and keep it keep it all good? It's I don't know, it's a tough world to navigate. It's I don't, I'm, I am not envious of the positions they're they're in because I could put my I can try to put myself in those shoes, and that would be a nightmare. Because I mean, I didn't go to school during that time, and I was nervous as hell about certain girls, and I was like, oh my god, like I want to ask her out, but what you know, what would the school, what would my friends think? What would all like you but then to blast it all on social media in a negative way, not just getting a rejection, but having your whole life ripped apart. And like what kind of a what kind of sabotage, what kind of evil like they can't just politely say no thank you? You know, like my gosh, how like you talk about toxic femininity, like what a what a awful response to a dude that's just trying to, you know, find some sort of companionship, and he's willing to just put himself out there and yeah, it's I it's scary.

SPEAKER_06 1:12:58

It's unfortunate. I mean, obviously I can see how that could be a fear and a valid one. But I guess just my I would go back to the whole, like the saying, you never make the shot you don't take. 100%. You know, and so my encouragement for most people and and really any risk in life would be just that you can't control outcomes in anything we do. But if deep down inside you feel compelled to take an action and you think it's for a good reason and it may benefit you, just take it. Right. Just take it. Like, yeah, you may be the victim of uh a nasty Snapchat chain that they blow up your text messages and they're showing all their friends that you asked them out, but you know what? So what?

SPEAKER_04 1:13:45

Right. But it's hard. We can say that with a mature mindset that we've we've grown up, we've been successful. And it's like, do I care as much what other people think? Again, I still care about what other people think, probably more than I should. Um but to put that um response on a teenager harder for them to do. And then if they don't care what other people think, is that empowering or is that kind of like a that's like almost like a red flag in and of itself where you're like, oh, you don't care what so you're so you're gonna be a slob?

SPEAKER_06 1:14:21

Right. No, you should always I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with caring what people think. I think that's a good thing. It it shows that you you have an awareness of what you're doing in this world. So you should you should definitely always consider what people might think, but again, going back to the core of it, if you feel like it's the right thing you do, you want to do it, it's not harming people. And yeah, it's risky, but all good things in life are risky, you know, to to obtain them. You know, you can't get the sweet nectar of a great plant without the risk of getting poisoned by one by making a mistake, right? You can't, you know, like it's just all beautiful things, all good things, they're all risky to take, you know. So my encouragement, I know it's difficult and for a kid to hear it and easier for us to say with years of experience, but take the risk. Right. Take the risk, like be smart about it. Yeah, don't, you know, don't you know, choose the words that you use, choose your approach wisely. You know, if you're gonna go ask out a girl, you know, do it in a way that you wouldn't, that you you're not like proactively embarrassing yourself. You know what I mean? Choose words that are pretty much direct and straightforward and just just ask. Worst case, yeah. She says no. Worst case, you get embarrassed, you know, whatever. But it's a risk that you have to take, you know. So that's that's my encouragement. Like, just take the risk.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:46

Well, going along to like things unsaid. Um, could you imagine like that case where you know my son or whatever, like a teenager, really liked a girl, but was too scared to take an action, right? And then they go to their tenure reunion or whatever, and you found out that that girl was into you, and right you missed it. It'd like because you weren't it'd be terrible. It'd be terrible. That would be like a worse fear, like that's why, again, not that I've experienced that, but it's like that's like a an idea where you're like, okay, that's things unsaid are way scarier. Like spending the time worrying and not taking an action, it's like taking action, at least you'll know one way or another. But taking the action is desirous and it's considered reckless behavior and considered probably a masculine trait that women actually, I think, want. They want to be sought, they want to be desired. And even if she said no, probably when she's by herself, not thinking about the the social impact of all these things, she's probably flattered. And I know it's gonna be funny for my wife to hear this story, but she always likes to make fun of me because I get hit on by gay guys a lot. And she always finds it hilarious and great. Uh, and I'm like, what do you want me to do? Like, I'm flattered, like somebody finds me desirable, it's great. Yeah, you know, I we laugh about it, and it's again, I take no disrespect by it, but it was it's always kind of a funny thing. Like, yeah, I had one, I was in, I was in college, and I always stopped by uh uh 7 Eleven and there was this like Asian guy out in front of the 7-Eleven. I was gonna go get a big gulp or something like that. And big gulp, huh? Big gulp, huh? All right, see you later. Uh so I'm walking up and he's like, excuse me. And I was like, I you know, I wasn't mature enough to handle at that time. That's why I get my extra deep voice. I'm like, yeah, what's up, man? He's like, uh, I can be discreet. And I was like, that's not that's not a that's not a the problem here. It's uh yeah, there's other things that are a problem there, not your being discreet.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:11

He took a risk though, bro. He took a risk. Yeah, he took a risk, man. Bravo to him. Uh doesn't Dio Vaughn have a thing when he's talking to like Joe Rogan or someone about being hit on by men and he's like kind of motive kind of pumps you up a little bit, makes you feel good. Oh man.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:27

Yeah, no, it's funny. Uh speaking about taking risks. Um, so I brought this. This is a delicious drink called Two Chicks.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:36

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:36

Um, it's a vodka, uh, vodka, elder flower, and pearl cocktail.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:42

That sounds very masculine. It's very masculine. So the cool thing is we're not so masculine that we can enjoy a drink called what?

SPEAKER_04 1:18:49

It's called two chicks.

SPEAKER_06 1:18:51

Uh it's got flowers on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:18:52

Oh, it's it's the can design, everything makes it so spectacular. But it's so good. It's so good.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:00

Well, uh, I'll have to try that. Let me finish this here and then uh or pour some in yours and I'll try it out of the can.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:09

We're doing all the masculine things here.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:12

Yes, we are. Yes, we are. Look at that. Two chicks. This is a very beautiful can.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:16

Oh, my friends will absolutely make fun of me. Or they did when I I pulled it out one time. Like I was like, that's so good. Try this.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:26

It's called vodka elderflower and pear cocktail. That just screams masculine. But you know what? Sometimes you have to enjoy a little bit of the softer side of life.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:38

That's so good.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:42

That is very good.

SPEAKER_04 1:19:44

That was very good. All right. But dudes will never try it because it's we will. No, we will. We will throw that out there. If somebody orders that at the bar, they're gonna be ripped apart by all their friends or whatever. But man, it's so good.

SPEAKER_06 1:19:56

Super good. Thank you for sharing that. Uh, what are some other things you could think about with toxic masculinity? One of the other things it showed was um recklessness and risk taking. Right. Good or bad.

SPEAKER_04 1:20:13

Um I don't think there's a category. Like, I there's times where risks need to be taken. Like we talked about earlier, like running towards gunfire. There needs to be people that um like climb poles and and work, you know, do something for the electric like, you know, there's so many risk um jobs, and they pay very well because um there's a very high risk, but the reward is also high. Um, and you need people to fill those jobs. At the same time, we can talk about um the violence and the different things, the different components that are are not great. And then again, you're a supportive family, like we talk about, you know, running towards gunfire. It's like, yeah, I can lose my life. My kids have to live with that, my wife has to live with that. Um, and that's hard to think about. Um, so you try not to think about it. So you try to just kind of close that part off, but at the same time, it's like we're not we're not so dumb that we don't understand that there's an inherent risk to doing dangerous things, firefighters, um military people, like there's risk involved. Um but at the same time somebody's gotta do it. And wouldn't you want people um that are of sound mind that um can be violent but choose to be peaceful um doing those things? And I I don't I can't can't really comprehend being on the under other end of that. Like, what does my wife have to think? I mean, all the times that I c I have to come home late on a SWAT op or something like that, and you know, I've gotten better at just texting her, I'm like, fine, be home shortly, like ops done. Um, because I used to not do it. I'm like, of course it right, but then I when I when I learned that my kids also it they really struggled with that. Um they still do, uh, but they really struggled with if like for some reason I'm I'm coming home late, like they're like, I hope everything's okay. I'm like, you'll know pretty fast otherwise. But at the same time, it's like what what goes on in the head is you know, there's a void of information, and people like to fill that void with their own narrative and their own thoughts. And if those thoughts aren't good, then then those are the ones that consume you.

SPEAKER_06 1:22:43

Yeah, it's a lack of communication. What do you think? I think we're in agreement that traits themselves are pretty neutral. Like aggression and violence and dominance, like a school, an active shooter scenario is a prime example of when people talk about masculine traits such as those that they deem toxic. Do you really not want those traits to exist in that scenario? I don't know anybody that would say, yeah, they don't want those traits to exist in that scenario. They want someone who can be extremely violent, quick decision making. You know what I mean? Like, so yeah, I don't know. I I would love to hear the perspective of someone who is an advocate of you know lessening masculinity and the toxicity that they you know portray on it.

SPEAKER_04 1:23:39

Well, how do you think how do you think the different structures that we have in society contribute to that? Like, for example, um boys like men have a higher suicide rate. Um boys get in trouble a lot more than girls do in school. Um and schools, especially like the young elementary schools and whatnot, are predominantly run by women. Um teachers, most you know, early educators are women. Well, then the rules are set up by women for women and young boys. And a lot of the things that I don't have an answer for is like, okay, well, what's the response for boys that are aggressive? Because they're told their whole life, like, hey, you know, keep your hands to yourself. Okay, but boys tend to be more physical, and so then it's like, hey, there's no rough housing at school. Okay. So now what? Like, what do they do? Um, because those avenues are cut off because liability things come in, and I think we could have a whole episode on liability and how how bad that's crushing our world. Um, but ultimately it's like the protective nature of I think a lot of women who are like, I want uh no rough housing, none of this. Um, because somebody could get hurt. Like, yeah, boys can get hurt, and then there's liability associated with that. So how do you think those um those institutions create some of the um the issues that don't allow boys to have a uh healthy outlet for I guess their natural state of aggressiveness or mentality?

SPEAKER_06 1:25:37

I think it just depends on how how they're critiqued and what sort of like trouble they get into. I think by all means they should be told like there's no rough housing during the middle of class, right? Right. Like again, going back to what I said earlier, there is a time and a place for aggression, there's a time and a place for violence, there's a time and a place for all of our behaviors you can think about. So by all means, they should be able to tell those kids those things. However, if they're telling these boys that like their behavior is never okay, and if they speak to them in a way that makes them feel like what they their behavior was just like absolutely wrong in all in all facets, I mean that could be a bad thing, right? Right. But again, if they're just telling them, hey, not in class, save that for recess, right? But then save that for the football field, for PE, whatever.

SPEAKER_04 1:26:31

Like there's recesses at school nowadays where kids aren't allowed to run. Like on the blacktop, like the like no running on the blacktop. Somebody might get hurt, and you're like, what do you want these boys to do? Yeah, and then they're like the grass is off limits. You can't go onto the grass. Like, why can't they go onto the grass? Yeah, I think and those things are like those things to me create a struggle and maybe extreme, but it's like when you suppress people how they naturally are, it it can lead to um like outburst.

SPEAKER_06 1:27:02

Um yeah, I know I definitely agree. And I think that's my critique of this blanket statements of how people should behave. We're always obsessed with like saying people should behave one way, and it's like there is no one way. Where in nature do you see things that only behave one way? Like we're all different. Humans are especially different because we can respond to critique and we can think about our actions.

SPEAKER_04 1:27:38

With our education, with our knowledge, with the technology, with all the like we're we're constantly evolving versus like hey, the seagull's gonna do seagull things. Dogs are gonna be dogs, right? Dogs have different traits, um based on the breed. But then, like, as people we're like man, woman. And then even now we're making it like all that's thinking that's weird.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:03

Yeah, well, that's what I meant by everything in nature is so different. Like you said, like dogs are dogs, like you can say humans are humans, but there's so many variances. A Rottweiler, a pit bull, their tendencies and their what they enjoy. A Malinois is very different than what a pug does. Right. Or a bulldog or a labrador, you know, whatever, like a poodle. Like they're all different, just like humans.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:27

They have characteristic traits, and there's anomalies, but they still have general characteristics.

SPEAKER_06 1:28:31

Right. But then there's so many, there's also so many differences and variances, though. Same with humans, though, but to try to make us all behave the same way is just doesn't work.

SPEAKER_04 1:28:40

Right. I think one of the things that's fascinating is I know it's kind of a not a change of subject, um, but it gets like one of the things I wanted to just discuss that was fascinating to me when thinking about the topic, is so for a while I worked um for probation at a juvenile hall. And prior to me getting there, there was like an abundance of recruitment for like football players like from the local colleges. Like, okay, they graduated, they're football players line, like massive humans, massive dudes, meatheads, as most would probably refer to them in a generic terms. And then they were like, ah, let's switch this. The department's like, and then they started hiring like psychology majors. And it was very, it's a lot of small petite women. And it was very fascinating when I got there because they kind of both things like had it already occurred. So I walk into the institution and I'm like, and there would be like a six, five, two hundred and like eighty-pound dude working with like a five, three, a hundred-pound girl in the same unit, keeping things under control. And one of the things that kind of it was very unique to me is like how well that combination kind of worked. Because we had to do like room checks and stuff like that, or cell checks, and so you'd walk down the hall, and the inmates would, you know, they were having a tough time, they would they would always talk to the the psych major. I was like, oh, and then and the woman would naturally listen. Like she would listen and whatever. But then when what kept everything kind of in order was the massive human dude that was there, and it's like, oh, that guy's gonna destroy anything that gets out of line.

SPEAKER_03 1:30:39

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:40

And so it was very fascinating that how how that worked because it usually it avoided like the the female who it was again, it was fitting like super general stereotype, but kind of like what we were just talking about. You had a like an overly I don't want digressive, not what, but like a masculine man, like a huge man, and then a very feminine, loving, uh, nurturing person working together. And it really was kind of like very symbolic of like I think how the most effective homes kind of work, like the the dad can be a like an over, like like a like a presence in the home. Um, like it used to be, it's like, oh, wait till your father gets home. You're gonna hear about this, and the kid's like, oh shit. I don't like I don't want to deal with this. I'll behave better. And it's like, no, it's too late for that. You done fucked up. Um, but then the uh the female officer would basically be able to listen to their problems and resolve a lot of the things in a loving uh manner. So it was just I always thought that was a fascinating thing that I didn't really understand. Um, I didn't necessarily notice it at the time, even though it was glaringly obvious, obvious. But at the same time, it's like schools kind of do the same thing. Like they make the principal like the nice person. Everybody gets along, they shake hands, and then the vice principal, whether it's man or woman, is like theirs job to just hammer everybody. They're the they're there to learn how to be the disciplinarian, and that's like their role. So I think when we talked about earlier about having roles, um, about not being everybody being an enabler, there is a thing where it's like having a balance, having a yin and a yang, and uh, you know, it helps. Like it helps to have somebody, and you can't just have two people that are just constantly like, hey, we're gonna be the uh tough love, tough love, tough love. Being on the same page as a family is important, but also being able to flow between empathy and tough love is is a very important trait. And I think sometimes people get into their box whether like political and it's like it's extreme one or the other, and it's like both have values that they can operate with, and it leads to a better person if you can kind of hey, we're gonna show tough love, but then I'll show empathy when it's the right time to do that. And it's like, how do you balance that? Yeah. But I think that goes to masculinity versus femininity and these extremes that um I think social media takes us to to operate in extremes, and that's again, neither are healthy in and of itself. They're both they both are better when together.

SPEAKER_06 1:33:26

Together, need them both, right? Yeah, a hundred percent.

SPEAKER_04 1:33:29

But you also not to go back, it was like I'd be interested in you because you came from a single single mom. Um, what was her kind of outlook on these things? Did you ever get a to understand what her viewpoint on like was she like, oh, I'm an independent woman?

SPEAKER_06 1:33:50

Or did she Yeah, I don't think my mom ever had to say it because she just lived it. Yeah. Like, and that's my point, like just do the damn thing because it's the right thing to do. I never saw my mom talk about she never said like I want to be independent. In fact, I remember her, like, she always she wanted to have a partner in life. Like, who doesn't? If you're being honest, who doesn't want a partner in life? It makes life easier. But for her, like it just wasn't in the it just didn't work out that way for whatever reason, right? And my mom the same way, yeah. It just didn't work out, you know. But like she was very independent. She never obviously she never relied on a man. Like when my dad left after I was born, the only discussion I know they had was like she was like, I think she was hurt from what I from what I gathered, she was almost more emotionally hurt by the response that he didn't want to be a part in raising me. That she was like, like, fuck off altogether. Like, I got it. That was her mindset. So she never even tried to pursue because people always ask, like I remember like hearing her friends or like you know, my aunt or just people, or even my older sister, like, why didn't you go after them for child support? Why didn't you like why didn't you force them to contribute? And she was just like, No, why they don't want to be a part of it? I don't want them, I don't want them to be a part of it. Yeah, like so she just she very truly lived as an independent woman, like she didn't have to preach it and say it. And so I was uh I was never exposed to that, and then not having a father, it's hard for me to say like what I missed out on because I don't know any different, right? As I've gotten older, I think there are certain things in my life that I guess when I'm just interacting with other dads around me, like you or other coaches or other just just other guys around to see to see how other guys are around their kids. Sometimes I try to think back and I look at my own life and I'm like, how would I have responded if I had men like this around me? And it's interesting sometimes. I think like I definitely think there are areas in my life that I would be better had I had a father figure. I think like one of the things that I feel like I'm deficient in or I struggle with is or maybe I'm better now because I acknowledge it, but like having I don't know, like having honest conversations with people. I feel like it's a very dad thing to do. Like, sit down, son, right? We're gonna have a chat about your behavior. You know, like you said earlier, wait till dad gets home, right? I never had that wait till dad gets home. Like my mom, I can say where she was feminine, like she had some emotional outburst, very much so. When me and my sister were driving her crazy and she was at wit's end, all she could do is is like yell. Right. We I didn't fear her, she was five foot two, a hundred and like thirty pounds.

SPEAKER_05 1:37:01

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:01

By the time I was in middle school, I was bigger than her, so like I didn't fear her. So you and I I remember, and I'm not proud of it, but I remember laughing at her sometimes when she would yell at us. I would laugh. And that's sounds terrible. Like I should have got my ass kicked by a dad for doing that, right? And I think that could be a deficiency in me as an adult now is like I never had someone to tell me, Colby, that's fucking disrespectful to laugh at your mom while she's struggling. Right. She's providing, she's working hard, she's doing everything she can to raise you guys, and you sit here and laugh. Like if that was my son now, like there would be a physical, maybe not physical, but there would be a consequence greater than me just like crying and like don't do that and getting mad.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:50

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:37:51

You know? And I I didn't have that. I didn't have a father to maybe provide that level of of discipline or fear. So like I think there's areas that maybe I probably went through my there's times in my life that I probably carried a little bit of disrespect and um I don't know, just challenge people that I probably wouldn't be that way if I had a dad early on, you know, like coaching me and correcting me in those behaviors. Again, it's hard to say for sure because I don't I didn't have it, but I don't know. I see, like I said, the way you treat your son, the way other guys treat their kids, and like I see that, and I even the way I treat my son now, I'm like, I didn't have any of this, you know? So I don't know how I would be different, but I think there's some things that would be different for sure.

SPEAKER_04 1:38:41

So going along those lines, um we're talking about you know, examples being from masculine fathers, right? And that's where you're seeking, you know, you're looking at me, you're looking at other people, coaches, right? What about for lack of a better term? What about docile fathers? Like what do you know? We're talking about masculinity, but there's part of the problem, they talk about toxic masculinity, but what's the other end of that where there's feminine men that are fathers? And what does that look like? And are there examples of that? And like, how does that influence and or guys, which again, I think it's probably maybe a conversation for another day, that dads who just basically surrender all the decision making and all the things to the mom, mom only, right? And be like, whatever you want. I've been told that women are the strongest and they know all the things, I'm an idiot, as portrayed in like shows and commercials where the guy is like the dad is in there, like, I don't know how to fill the dishwasher, and the mom's like, and the kids are like, Dad, you're such an idiot, right? And like that's portrayed. That that's a real thing. If you look for it, just like anything, if you look for it, you'll see it. Um what about the guys who just take a step back and say, Mom, do everything?

SPEAKER_06 1:40:16

I think it's lazy. I think I don't think it's I don't think it's as common as maybe people would think. I don't think it's common, but I I agree. Those relationships are out there where the guys are very hands-off, more taking on a uh passive role as being a father and just kind of like, I'm here, but like don't ask me to do anything. Just I think those relationships tend to not work or they won't last because ultimately there's gonna be some some tension and frustration there from the other party. You know what I mean? Like imagine coaching a team and having an assistant coach, and you brought the assistant coach on for a reason because they have a few skills, things that you can't offer. You know, maybe you are great at one position and you can coach that, but you're like, hey, there's these other there's this other side of the game that you have a background in, only you can offer. Imagine bringing that assistant coach onto the team and they're quiet the whole season. They never they never offer any input.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:22

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:22

Well, you're gonna be like, dude, I brought you on for a reason. Like only you can offer that. You're eventually you're gonna get pissed off and replace them.

SPEAKER_04 1:41:29

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:41:30

And I think fathers that take on that role are more likely to be replaced, right?

SPEAKER_04 1:41:35

If I'm being honest. So the wife will be looking for a partner to help in that, but I think it also can be just self-destructive, right? Like, I think sometimes maybe through the things that we're talking about through social media, it's like, yeah, I can do this on my own. Um, so the guy falls into the trap. It's like, okay, if everything I suggest is like I'm an idiot and I'm not gonna do a thing, I'm gonna stop suggesting things.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:00

Right.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:01

And then maybe it doesn't, it's going astray. Like the the kids are weaning off the path, and the the dad may be sitting there just kind of lackadaisical and be like, I was told I don't know anything. I told not to do anything, I was told to take a back burner. I don't know what to do, apparently. So I'm just gonna shut the fuck up. But again, that only is probably coming from uh a person that doesn't have any masculine traits or pride or sitting there and be like, no, that's my son, or that's my daughter. Um, but I I guarantee, you know, there's women and young boys or whatever that have experienced that. And when they become adults, they're like, I I wish my my dad was different.

SPEAKER_06 1:42:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:53

And I know I can think of a couple people specifically who've I've had conversations like that with, um, where it's like the dad wasn't really involved. He just kind of was he was there, but let mom run the show, you know, in terms of the happy wife, happy, happy life. I'm just gonna stay out of it. Mom knows best, all the phrases that we're used to hearing, but didn't assume the role where it's like sometimes it's the father's role to be like, hey babe, I know that you're trying to be loving. Let's do it in a different way. Let the kid fall, let him pick himself up. It's better for them long term. Yeah, stop running to their aid every time you can. It doesn't mean you're not a loving mom. It's time for them to grow the fuck up.

SPEAKER_06 1:43:45

Yeah. Well, and I think that's the mark of a good relationship is when you can recognize when something isn't working with your sign your partner, your significant other, and you can step in and be assertive and say, hey, look, here's a different way we can try it. And you have to be able to have a different way, right? I don't think if again, like that's why I think we all balance each other out.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:10

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:10

And a woman is not more valuable than a man, and a man is not more valuable than a woman, we're equal. We're not equal in our skills. Let me be clear. What they bring to the We're not equal in our abilities. I know that sounds controversial.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:22

Well, even a man and a man aren't equal. Like if you put two people in comparison, one's gonna have pluses, one's gonna have minuses, and vice versa, in certain categories and certain times.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:31

Yeah, men and women are not equal in their skills and abilities. I said it. Like it's okay.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:37

How dare you do? We're gonna get canceled. I know, how dare I? We're canceled.

SPEAKER_06 1:44:40

But that doesn't mean we're not equal in value. Right. Like, in fact, like the more we work together and complement each other, like the stronger the value for everyone.

SPEAKER_04 1:44:50

But how many people do you think always have the humility to listen and go, okay, she knows best in this or he knows best in this? That takes respect. And ultimately that gets compromised when people aren't fulfilling maybe the expectations that are set that they maybe had. It's like, oh, I wanted a man that does this, this, this, and it's like, I don't care about this. This I don't know.

SPEAKER_06 1:45:14

And I yeah, and that's true too. And like, again, going back to I hate assigning roles and uh titles to things because how many I bet you I know for sure there's relationships out there where there is maybe the female half in parenting that they are more of like the disciplinarian, but the guy's not docile, the guy's not passive and not taking on a different role. Maybe for whatever reason, because there are all those outliers, right? There is a it is a female who has like she just naturally has that leadership dominant presence that can like accountable where the guy might just be like, you know that like hey, you know how your mom was earlier, you know? Well, here's here's why. Let me just explain why, like, this is things that she you know threw down on you.

SPEAKER_05 1:46:03

Right.

SPEAKER_06 1:46:03

You know, maybe he's just the more of the better communicator, like, and that's not a male versus female trait. I I do think in general, females tend to be the better communicators because we're so like simple-minded and we just want to like do the bare minimum. Like we see problem, we solve it, right? You know, caveman style, where women are usually better at communicating things. They're they're more like well-rounded in the communication sphere where we're just like more black and white in general.

SPEAKER_04 1:46:29

It's funny, yeah. It's funny because you say that, and you know, it's like I have to have that conversation with um my boys sometimes when they don't understand where my wife is coming from with something like that. And I a hundred percent always support her, but I also can communicate in a more uh right maybe concise way or in a way that gives a different perspective to you know their understanding of that. And you know, she has to do that for me, I'm sure. Yeah, it and it goes back to it's situational, but it's the I think the key is is always in being in support, not hey, I got your back on this. But at the same time, you know, it's like I've had situations where I'm like I have to be honest with them, they're like, hey, Beb, you were maybe you didn't handle that the best way possible, not in front of them, heaven forbid, but you sit there and just like I want her to do that to me, and be like, eh, you could have handled that better, yeah, behind the bigger. Absolutely, and then you know, but united front in front of them.

SPEAKER_06 1:47:28

Yeah, yeah, for sure. And that's what makes a relationship work, though, is being able to well, you have to be active, you have to be an active participant in the relationship and acknowledge when things aren't working, and then have the courage and the masculinity, if you will, to like address it. Right. It's not a bad thing, right? You know, in fact, it's a caring thing, it shows you care enough, you love that person enough to address it and bring it to their attention.

SPEAKER_04 1:47:52

We all have gaps, we all have blind spots, we want to fill the gaps, and uh sometimes maybe somebody at home can speak on how they do it most effectively. Um, I like to do it honestly when most things are going well. Um, like my wife and I will go out on a date and I'll just kind of like, hey, how am I doing as a father? How am I doing as a husband? Um, where are my blind spots? What am I lacking? Um, and it helps start the facilitates the conversation. Inevitably, I have to have something for her too, because I know that as soon as she's done answering it, she's gonna throw it back at me. Um, but maybe I had something on my chest that I wanted to uh to get off and I didn't want to um create a like, hey Beb, this is where you're all fucked up. Um, because that doesn't ever go well. Right. Um, but if you do it authentically and you're like, hey, listen, these are some things that I'm I'm I'm curious because we all have blind spots. Um, where is my masculinity going too far? Or, you know, where am I just lacking? And I think that's a good way to approach it if you're trying to create a united front where maybe if you're at home and going like, uh, you know, my husband and I, or my wife and I don't seem to have a united front on it. How do we remedy that? But it has to become you have to be willing to accept the criticism because ultimately you married this person. You hopefully have some semblance of respect still remaining. But even if it's criticism you don't want to hear, don't be defensive on it. Accept it analysis, give it run it through the process and be like, all right, let me take this opportunity to be to be better in whatever facet that comes in.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:36

Agree. Well, I don't think this stayed totally on toxic masculinity, but um I think we covered some good some good man shit. Some good man shit and some maybe some general advice or even just thought thoughts that people can have.

SPEAKER_04 1:49:53

Yeah. Well, it's hard to stay on toxic masculinity when we don't believe in it.

SPEAKER_06 1:49:57

That's true.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:00

I mean to be fair. Like discussing it is like, okay, I'm trying to be open minded about it, but I don't know what toxic really means in that. But I again I think bad actions are bad actions, not necessarily associated to a label like masculinity or f feminist or whatever. I think it's let's just talk about being good.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:23

Yeah. Situational. I think we already covered it, but so really like I mean my only other question was like, do are there people out there who genuinely think these masculine traits we're discussing are always bad, like as an absolute or do you at least recognize that no, it's not the it's not the actions or traits that are bad, but it's how they're used.

SPEAKER_04 1:50:45

Yeah, how they're applying them into what situation.

SPEAKER_06 1:50:47

Right. And if so, like please share your thoughts and opinion, whether this is on YouTube, our Instagram, or wherever you're seeing us, like Jeff and I both welcome the feedback. We welcome the different the differing perspectives.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:01

And maybe if it's if you have a differing perspective and you want to air it, like we're happy to have you on and allow that uh allow that conversation because how can we learn from if we don't know?

SPEAKER_06 1:51:16

Yeah. There's two quotes I wanted to end on. One of them you was very similar to what you said earlier. Um, but I think they're good quotes that kind of put a nice little bow on this discussion here. The first one is from someone you know. It is better to be a warrior in a garden than a gardener in a war. True. And then the next quote is this is the one you kind of touched on. A harmless man is not a good man. A good man is a dangerous man who has the violence under control.

SPEAKER_04 1:51:52

Agreed as well.

SPEAKER_06 1:51:54

So, guess we can end on that. This was another episode of Broken Perspective Podcast. To those of you who actually made it to the end, we really appreciate you. Hit that subscribe button. Hit the subscribe button, leave some comments, follow us on Instagram. Uh, we really enjoy the feedback. That really is the point of our show is to get a wide variety of perspectives. So, again, we appreciate you, and we'll see you on the next one.

SPEAKER_04 1:52:17

See ya.