Why Relationships Fail—And How to Keep Yours Strong | Therapist Danielle Riele Ep. 10

Relationships aren't failing because people suddenly stopped caring.
They're failing because communication breaks down, trust slowly erodes, life gets busy, and many couples never learn how to navigate the hard seasons together.

In this episode of Broken Perspective, we sit down with licensed therapist Danielle Riele to talk about modern dating, marriage, communication, trust, parenting, first responder relationships, and the social media advice that may be doing more harm than good.
We discuss:

• Why so many couples say they've "grown apart"
• The hidden trust issues that quietly damage relationships
• Communication mistakes men and women commonly make
• Why modern dating feels harder than ever
• Social media relationship advice Danielle strongly disagrees with
• Midlife challenges, parenting, and staying connected through life's busiest seasons
• How first responder careers impact marriages and family life
• Practical ways to strengthen your relationship before it reaches a breaking point

This conversation is packed with real-world insight, practical advice, and plenty of laughs along the way.

Whether you're single, dating, married, or somewhere in between, there's something in this episode for you.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Well, to me, it's it's uh as a therapist, it it's not up to me to decide like what you should do or not do, right? I my job is to hold space for you. And to me, my job is to hold a mirror up and go, okay, this is what I'm seeing. You like it, not like it, want to do something about it. Um and if they're like, yeah, I want to do something about it, I always jokingly say, like, we're on a journey together, we're walking a path together, and I kick a rock in front of you, and the person goes, Oh my gosh, there's a rock there. I'm like, You found that. Pick it up. Let's see what's on there. Um, so it's not up to me to decide if you should do that or not do that, right? But it is going to lead you down a certain path. And if every time you don't like what somebody has to say, you go, Oh, I know my worth, I'm out of here. Might be kind of lonely because at the end of the day, a part of a long-standing relationship is working through hard shit.

SPEAKER_03 0:56

Welcome to Broken Perspective Podcast, where we challenge beliefs, learn from others, and aim to be better people.

SPEAKER_08 1:02

I'm Colby. And I'm Jeff. Today we're going to be discussing the ups and downs of modern relationships.

SPEAKER_03 1:07

Our guest today is Danielle Realli, a licensed therapist who helps couples navigate the issues that quietly destroy relationships: communication breakdowns, growing apart, intimacy struggles, trust issues, and the stress of everyday life. If you've ever wondered what separates couples who make it from those who don't, this episode is for you. Danielle, welcome to the show. Thanks for having me.

SPEAKER_08 1:33

Glad you're here.

SPEAKER_02 1:34

Thank you.

SPEAKER_08 1:34

Daigle, what are we drinking today? Ooh, I thought today would be a great day for this episode uh to break out Dust Bowl's therapist. Therapist? Dust Bowl therapist.

SPEAKER_03 1:47

Bro, how did how did you find a beer named Therapist?

SPEAKER_07 1:51

Well, I saw it and I thought it was a must must-get for today's episode.

SPEAKER_03 1:54

This is awesome. All right. So, Danielle, we have a tradition with the show where we try to crack open a new beer from different local areas to kind of shout out the local breweries in town or just try something different. Keep the show interesting. Okay.

SPEAKER_08 2:08

And we pour it and we do a terrible job every single time of the pour. Except for Dave Bass, who crushed it.

SPEAKER_03 2:15

I think we're getting better though.

SPEAKER_02 2:17

I'll take my Alani energy drink with you.

SPEAKER_03 2:19

I was gonna say, what are you drinking over there?

SPEAKER_02 2:20

Yes, it's right, Alani energy drink? Yeah, a pink slush.

SPEAKER_03 2:25

Did you try it yet?

SPEAKER_02 2:26

Not yet.

SPEAKER_03 2:27

Tell us what you think. Yeah, you're an A.

SPEAKER_02 2:30

I like it.

SPEAKER_03 2:31

Awesome. She likes it. Cheers.

SPEAKER_02 2:35

Cheers. Thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_03 2:39

Reach Go gadget arm. Let me try this real quick. All right, good stuff. Okay. Well, first and foremost, thank you so much for coming on the show. Yes, thanks for having me. Come and hang out with us. Yeah. So before we get started, um I definitely want to maybe even before the first question, if you can maybe just share with us a little bit about your background, how you ended up doing what you're doing now.

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Yeah, good question. Um, I always half jokingly say that I've been a therapist since I was a little kid. I just get paid to do it now. So um to me, uh most therapists start at a young age. We don't come from an easy background. Per se, I thought I wanted to be an attorney and took one psych class in my first uh semester of college and decided the rest was history. So I have my undergrad from San Francisco State in psych, and then I went to the University of San Francisco for my master's degree in counseling psychology. I also teach there occasionally as an adjunct professor, and then I've had my private practice for 11 years now. So and been practicing as a therapist for 16 years. So a lot of people don't know after you get your master's degree, you need 3,000 hours of client time, and then you have two state exams and then you become licensed. So usually takes four to five years. So that first five years was working towards the licensure. So it's been 16 years total.

SPEAKER_08 4:15

Excellent. What would you say your expertise is?

SPEAKER_02 4:18

I like to say my pocket is people pleasers and couples. And so within the realm of people pleasers, there's a lot of helping the helpers. So a lot of law enforcement. I'd say more law enforcement than fire, but there are some fire sprinkled in there. There's some nurse, some healthcare staff, teachers, parents, you know, a lot of moms. Um, but I have a growing population of men that I have seen more and more recently.

SPEAKER_03 4:46

And is that more unusual in traditional therapy, or is that is that like a trend you guys are seeing now?

SPEAKER_02 4:52

Uh I mean, in my practice personally, I am seeing an upward trend in more men being comfortable to come to therapy on their own, where I would say when I first started 16 years ago, that wasn't the case. So it's a a positive, I would say, yeah, overall. Um, and like I said, I've worked with couples the whole 16 years as well.

SPEAKER_03 5:13

So do you do you think that social media maybe plays a role in more men seeing guys open up? And do you think that's maybe adding to the reason why you're seeing more men come get help?

SPEAKER_02 5:28

Yeah, I think it's more normalized now, right? Where it's more normalized where it's okay to not be okay, it's okay to get help, it's okay to say I'm going to therapy. Whereas I would say even five, 10 years ago, that it wasn't. It was definitely a trend where if you went, it was almost like prohibition style, like backdoor knock, like don't let anyone know I'm here. Whereas now it's like, yeah, I go to therapy and it's helpful for me, and I don't know why I didn't start sooner. And so it's definitely changed for the positive.

SPEAKER_08 5:59

Well, your expertise is why we're we asked you to be here. Um, do you want to give a disclaimer real quick?

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Oh, yes, yes, thank you. So, my disclaimer just to appease my own anxiety is that this isn't therapy. I'm not your therapist, and this is not a substitute for therapy.

SPEAKER_03 6:16

So love it for entertainment purposes only. Yes, please.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

I am a human that happens to work as a therapist.

SPEAKER_03 6:23

Awesome, awesome. So, what would you say, maybe even with your current group that you work with, or I would imagine in your line of work, you guys have a lot of discussions with colleagues and you guys share information and trends. Uh, what are some of the trends that maybe you guys are seeing in modern relationships when it comes to, you know, just couples?

SPEAKER_02 6:43

I think in general there is a lot of trust challenges. I would say in general, uh probably 95% of people come in and say they have communication issues. So I like I'd say again, nine times out of ten. I like to let people know that I see it as like an iceberg. Whereas like the tip of the iceberg is what you see, right? And what you see is we're arguing or we're not getting along or our arguments have gotten worse. When in reality, it's the massive piece underneath.

SPEAKER_08 7:18

Like the things unsaid?

SPEAKER_02 7:20

It's the things that you don't really realize that are contributing to the arguments.

SPEAKER_08 7:23

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 7:24

And I would say more often than not, it's trust. And it's not trust in the sense of somebody is being unfaithful. It's trust in the sense of like a slow erosion of trust. I like to, my brain speaks in metaphor, so buckle up for that ride. Um, I like to think of it as like if we lived on the coast and we parked our car near the ocean, you're supposed to hose it off, right? Like the salt is gonna erode at it. But if you just kind of do it every once in a while, then you kind of forget, then you have this rust bucket that you're like, shit, I have to deal with that now.

SPEAKER_04 8:03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:03

Right. And that's kind of how I see trust. If we don't tend to it regularly, if we aren't vulnerable, if we're not checking in, then there's kind of a slow erosion that can start to happen.

SPEAKER_03 8:17

Yeah. Would you say there's a certain personality type that you tend to see these trust issues happen more with in a relationship? Like, just this is my own kind of experience or thought process. So tell me if I'm wrong. But I would imagine people who are more passive aggressive and don't like confrontation and bringing up the quote unquote elephant in the room, those sort of personality types might have a difficult time expressing the way they feel, which can maybe lead to those trust issues because they would rather just kind of be dismissive of it or be passive and not ever address it until it becomes something really big, right? And what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 8:58

Yeah. So what you're essentially describing is avoidant attachment style, is what we would say.

SPEAKER_04 9:04

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:05

And so to give like a quick little background of that, like we there is an attachment theory where zero to five years old is when we form our attachments. Think of us as like a brand new computer and our caregivers are the download of the software. And so that is projected to be how we connect with the world and even into adulthood and in marriage later on, if we don't do something about it. And so what you're describing is an avoid an attachment type. So people, it's I want to connect with you. I want to be connected, I love you, I want to be around you, I care about you. And also, I am afraid of conflicts. I am afraid of creating a bigger issue, I'm afraid of abandonment. And so I'd rather just, I'm gonna say, keep the peace and just not bring it up. And then, like you said, or like we're talking about with the car, it just erodes and then it gets pretty bad.

SPEAKER_03 10:07

Yeah. Now, do you find that to be true, that relation or that personality style, or are there other ones that also contribute to those sort of like erosion issues?

SPEAKER_02 10:18

Um, I mean, it can obviously it it depends, right? But I would say you would see, and now obviously this is not all. I'm not painting a broad brush. More often than not, we will see men be an avoidant attachment type, whereas more often than not, you'll see a woman be an anxious attachment type. And so that the anxious attachment type is the one that's like, I can't go to bed mad. We have to work through this, we have to figure this out. And we get into these matches, what we would call like a pursuer distancer situation.

SPEAKER_04 10:50

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

So typically in the example I'm giving, wife pursues and says, We can't go to bed mad, we have to talk about this. Husband's going, absolutely not. I don't want to talk about it. I want to be over it, or I don't want to be around you, or whatever it may be. But what happens is that makes the pursuer pursue more.

SPEAKER_04 11:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 11:10

Because I'm afraid you're going to abandon me. And so I want this to be okay. Those are the people, again, that are like, we can't go to bed mad.

SPEAKER_08 11:18

Yeah. So in that situation, I guess what would be, what would be your recommendation um in that because one's wanting to talk and maybe the other one's not ready to talk. And how do you how do you navigate that? Because I think that is a um a thing that a lot of relationships have is like we don't want to go to bed angry, but some things can't be resolved. And sometimes if you're tired, hungry, whatever, those things we uh I think it's pretty common knowledge that those things aren't when we're at our best.

SPEAKER_02 11:48

Exactly. Exactly. When we are dysregulated, we're going that's when things get nasty. And then what tends to happen is we come back and we start apologizing for how we behaved in the argument. And so the actual issue never gets addressed.

SPEAKER_01 12:04

Right.

SPEAKER_02 12:04

And so in those moments, for one, it's absolutely okay to go to bed, mad. I know there's probably lots of ladies out there that are gonna be pissed about that, and that's okay. Um it's all right. Uh it it's allowed.

SPEAKER_08 12:17

You don't sleep very well.

SPEAKER_02 12:18

No, you don't. But I mean, even if you're like, well, I'm sorry, well, me too, like you're still not going to bed happy, right?

SPEAKER_08 12:25

That's the best that's the best way to apologize.

SPEAKER_02 12:28

I love you anyway. Good night. And then I just we're not we didn't do anything there. So, but you know, you can go to bed mad.

SPEAKER_08 12:36

But it's better than lying or being dis dishonest and being like, yeah, everything's fine. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:42

Because that's or making it worse and fighting for hours and hours.

SPEAKER_08 12:46

Right. Especially if you have to get up in the next morning and take care of the kids and you're exhausted, like, oh, I only got three hours of sleep. Exactly. Thanks, babe.

SPEAKER_02 12:53

Yes. The whole goal is to speak to someone like you what a coworker you really love. And if you wouldn't speak to somebody else in your life like that, then why would you speak to someone you love and is your person like that? And so in those moments, I always encourage couples to take a break. Like we have to take a break. Preferably ahead of time, we already have a plan of we take 30 minutes. My rule of thumb is we really shouldn't do less than 30 minutes and we should never do more than 24 hours.

unknown 13:28

Right.

SPEAKER_02 13:28

Because beyond 24 hours, it's like, I don't even remember what we're fighting about, and it doesn't really matter. Are you still mad? I'm not really mad. And then we just move on. But what happens is here's another metaphor. It's like a pile of laundry. You can avoid it all you want, but it doesn't go away.

SPEAKER_04 13:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:45

And then the next time you have an issue, not only do you have your issue, which is a small pile of laundry, but that whole other pile of laundry comes barreling through too. Cause it's like, hey, remember these unresolved issues you didn't address? Right. Yeah. Here it is.

unknown 13:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 13:59

Yeah. They lie there waiting for you.

SPEAKER_02 14:01

Correct. So you go, you take a break, and let's say it's 30 minutes, and now we want to be cognizant of we're not saying you need a break, you're pissed.

SPEAKER_04 14:14

Right.

SPEAKER_02 14:14

Right. The I and we statements are very helpful in a moment like that. Or if you have a code word that you can come up with ahead of time, something preferably funny.

SPEAKER_08 14:25

Well, it's a good bring some humor. 30 minutes is a good time to formulate a good argument.

SPEAKER_02 14:30

Well, yes. So yeah, it's a good thing.

SPEAKER_03 14:31

I wasn't gonna say, like, yes, that's just to apply. This is gonna be time. Like if you're like, oh, I got 30 minutes, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna come up with some really good points when we get back together here. Yeah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:42

So I love that you brought that up because I I actually have an online couples course and it's all about uh communication tips and tricks for couples. And in that, I have a Venn diagram. And in that Venn diagram, it's what you're supposed to use when you take a break. And what I ask you to do is on one circle, what is my partner actually asking for? And whether you're thinking about it, preferably you're writing it down, because to me, when we get something out, it's a release. And that is incredibly helpful, even journaling. Then the other circle is like, what was I actually asking for? And so with that, it's not about it's not about the laundry. I was asking you to see that I'm struggling with my mental load and that I need your help. That's what I was actually asking for.

SPEAKER_05 15:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 15:32

But what often gets seen is like, you just complain to me about the laundry over and over again. It's not about the laundry, just like it's not about the nail, right? You've seen that video. Yes.

SPEAKER_08 15:41

But I think what you brought up is uh uh is advice I would give when I was uh training young young officers. And it seems like in even when all the domestic violence calls that uh we have to go to as law enforcement, it's really just understanding like don't call them out of their name. Like just don't call your spouse or your or your girlfriend or your boyfriend. Don't call them out like when you start calling them a bad name, then the fight goes to that. Yes, and so it takes away you're taking away from the actual argument that you're handing.

SPEAKER_03 16:17

It becomes personal and people get it more emotional with that. Right. I can't believe you called me that, and then it's like we're not even talking about the same thing anymore. So it's like a snowball, you're adding more to the issue that we're like this me and my wife do it all the time when we start, you know, having these little and it's very rare. We actually have a really, really great relationship. I think I'm very fortunate because we both communicate openly. We've always been that way. Like, we're just like we call things out. That's right. We're not passive. Um, so it works for us, but like for what I was going with that. But um don't calling it uh by a bad name or something. Yeah, we when we get in these like bickering arguments, sometimes you all start to notice, or she will, like, we're starting to get off topic. And it's kind of like you gotta go almost do like a tactical timeout and say, like, wait a minute, what are we even arguing about again? Let's get back to that. Yes. Because we're starting to go down a tangent that like is not even helpful or relevant to what we started with. So yeah, I think it's important to recognize that.

SPEAKER_02 17:16

Yes. And I think as human beings, you know, we need the we have those basic needs of food, shelter, water, clothing, right? As a therapist, in my opinion, um, a basic need is to be seen and connected. Like as human beings, we want to be connected with other human beings. And within that connection is to truly be seen, like understand me. It's the whole idea that the word intimacy is into me see. Oh. If you break it down, I don't like that. I didn't coin it, but I learned it. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 17:51

We heard it from you.

SPEAKER_02 17:52

Yes, yeah. There you go. There you go. But it's the whole idea of like vulnerability, right? And being, but we have to have a safe environment to do that.

SPEAKER_05 18:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:02

I like to tell people like, if someone's coming up to me like this, I don't know why we're doing that, but I'm gonna do it too. I gotta stay ready, right? I don't want to get punched in the face. But if someone's coming up to you like this, not like this, we're more than likely gonna drop the fist too.

SPEAKER_05 18:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:19

But somebody's gotta change the dance. And that person that puts themselves out there in that way, that's hard. It's hard to do, especially when you've been together a while. A lot of times there's a certain dance we do. So the middle of that Venn diagram of that circular piece of like, what are they actually asking for? What am I actually asking for in the middle? Is what if anything could I have done differently?

SPEAKER_04 18:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 18:44

So we can come back and say, hey, like I could have stayed on topic there. Or I feel like my tone changed, or my facial expression. I know maybe my tone was cool, but my facial expression looked like I was big mad.

SPEAKER_08 18:59

I get in so much trouble for my face. I don't know what it is. You gotta fix your face because you can't fix it.

SPEAKER_07 19:06

It's like it's the only face I get for me.

SPEAKER_03 19:09

For me, it's the it's the classic. It's not what you said, it's how you said it. Right. Right. I get it. Like, even from my you know, law enforcement background, your tone of voice is so important. And I don't know, I struggle with it though. A lot of times I'm just like, I'm this is like my smart ass coming out. Like, usually when she brings something like that up, I'm usually like, Well, I'm sorry you interpreted the way I said it that way, but you know what? It's like I don't know how else to say it. Like, that's just me. Like you might as well just say, calm down. Relax. Relax. Works every time.

SPEAKER_02 19:41

Never in the history, right? Have I ever seen anyone go, Okay, yep, calm and down.

SPEAKER_04 19:46

Think of that.

SPEAKER_02 19:47

Calming down. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 19:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:49

In those moments, we want to say something along the lines of that wasn't my intention.

SPEAKER_05 19:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 19:56

Right. But facial expression, tone, body language can make a massive difference in how we perceive a message coming through. If I go like this and go, I don't know what you're talking about, I didn't do that, versus like, tell me more.

SPEAKER_03 20:10

Right.

SPEAKER_02 20:11

I didn't interpret it that way. Curiosity is very helpful.

SPEAKER_03 20:16

Yeah, I agree. I think the problem is, I think this is my uh perspective, but like a lot of people when you get in relationships, you're still pretty young, and like what you're describing is a life skill that really comes with time, and you don't really learn those skills of the body language and your tone of voice and the importance that that has until you've probably just dealt with society for some time, unless you were obviously brought up in a in a home where maybe your parents really were good at that.

SPEAKER_02 20:45

Yes. Well, I mean, I tell my boys, let's try that again. Let's try that again. I have three boys that are gonna be somebody's husband someday, and it's important to me as the mom, right? I can't teach you how to be a man, I'm not a man, but I can teach you how to treat a woman. Say, I hear you, you're upset, and let's try that again a little differently. And they'll be pissed and go, can you please not do that? I'm like, Yes, yes, I can.

SPEAKER_00 21:12

Yes, I can. Thank you.

SPEAKER_03 21:13

Yeah, but it's so important to instill that though, and like teach that.

SPEAKER_00 21:17

Yeah, sure. I think so.

SPEAKER_08 21:19

Well, and going to kind of what we were talking about um earlier, is one of the things my wife and I like to do, and w you know, we've probably only done it a few times over the course of the twenty-seven years we've been together, is um we'll go out on a date, and usually during the date it's like, How am I doing as a husband?

SPEAKER_02 21:38

Love it.

SPEAKER_08 21:39

And it gives uh 'cause it's a genuine ask. Like maybe I maybe I have blind spots that I don't know, and it gives her an opportunity to sit and kind of think if there's something that's been on uh her chest and be like, Oh yeah, this kind of bothers me a little bit. Yeah. Um I always have to be prepared because the next thing is the how am I doing? And it's like, well I didn't want to get into that. I just wanted to focus on me and people.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

You're doing fantastic.

SPEAKER_08 22:04

Everything is just rainbows and unicorns. Uh huh. Um, yeah. And it sometimes it feels disingenuous. It's like if I don't have a thing, I was like, no, I'm really just focused on me trying to be the best husband, best father. Um, and then just being prepared when we're both in a good mood, um, and being able to receive that and go, okay. And versus waiting till she's angry or I'm I'm upset or something like that, and then trying to listen authentically during that time.

SPEAKER_02 22:32

So we'll just far more vulnerable and we're far more productive because we're in a space where we're not emotionally elevated or dysregulated, right? And so we can say, like, I'm more open to hearing this. And I think that that's incredibly helpful, especially if you're gonna be in a monogamous ra relationship the rest of your life. This is the one relationship in our lives. There's um a woman named Esther Perrell who has a book called Mating in Captivity. And in one of those pieces, she talks about how this is the one relationship in our life where this person fulfills so many roles. Like your mom's your mom, your brother's your brother, your son's your son, your friend's your friend, right? But this person is a confidant, a co-parent, a life manager alongside of you, your lover, your friend, your life partner, right? They fulfill all these different roles in your life. And so it makes it a little more challenging, right?

SPEAKER_03 23:27

Because it's almost unfair.

SPEAKER_02 23:29

Like Yes, it kind of is a touch. And that's a part of it is recognizing that we have to sometimes let things go, or we have to be okay with not agreeing on everything.

SPEAKER_05 23:44

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 23:44

Right.

SPEAKER_02 23:45

We just don't see things the same way.

SPEAKER_08 23:47

And having the respect to understand that um they're gonna see things differently. Like my wife is going to view things differently than I view things, and having like she'll respect um my opinion when talking about raising our boys. Um, and maybe she's like, Well, that's not the way I think. It's like, well, it's because you think like a mom, and my job is to raise them. Yeah, yes, yes. Um so with you know, kind of common modern society where I think um women are taking on a bigger role of uh being breadwinners, but also trying to take on um like single mom child raising. Um how do you think because we've come across like not to be derogatory, but kind of docile men and that just okay, whatever whatever mom says, that's what we're doing. And we see it have a kind of sometimes have a negative effect on boys. Do you have any thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 24:52

Sure. I mean, I think at the end of the day, we're all modeling how to be, right? Like how to be, again, whether that's the attachment or just like in your example, how to be a man. Right. And I think as we raise children, we all often have to take a hard look in the mirror and go, do I want to do it that way? Especially when you have that mirrored back to you by them saying something to you, or your tone, or your words, or whatever it may be. I think we all have to kind of take a step back. Cause maybe some people they're like, I like that. Maybe they're like, I want my husband to be more passive or whatever it may be and let me make the decisions. And if that's how you choose to roll, then that's how you choose to roll. But I think that again, when we're parents specifically, there are people, littler people watching you, and we all often have to take a hard look in the mirror of like, ooh, okay, I'm doing that. Do I want that to continue for future generations or do I not? And I'd say when we say I don't, that's the path of most resistance because that requires taking a look in the mirror, often seeing where it came from. Because more than likely you didn't just pick it up last week.

SPEAKER_04 26:18

Right.

SPEAKER_02 26:19

It probably came from childhood or what was modeled to you, and then having to do that heavier work can be hard.

SPEAKER_05 26:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 26:28

Yeah. While talking about relationships, because I think a lot of this episode is probably gonna be geared more towards longer-term relationships, marriages, just because that's kind of what we have experience with. Sure. But I also don't want to leave out maybe some people who are in that different phase of their life, whether seeking out relationships and stuff. Like, what are your thoughts on the challenges of modern dating and relationships? And like, is dating really that much more difficult today than it used to be, or are people just getting more picky?

SPEAKER_02 27:03

Yeah, I I think dating right now is rough. Put it this way, I won't want to do it. Sound great. I've been with my husband for 20 years, and we've been married for 15, and I'm down with that. Sounds good to me. Um it it seems rough. I mean, I think that we live in a world now where we are way more brave behind a screen. So it's very easy to swipe, right?

SPEAKER_04 27:27

Yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_02 27:28

And just to go, and and we're so quick with it, right? It's like a snapshot of something or someone, and we're quick to go, nah, nah, nah. Um, and then from there, it's just there's like a series of challenges, right? It's not really organic as if you met someone out in the wild, right? Of just like starting conversation and things like that. So, I mean, to some degree, like sure, I pickiness, sure. But also, I mean, to some degree, I would challenge that in the sense of shouldn't we be? If you're gonna hang out with this person for the rest of your life, should like them.

SPEAKER_03 28:07

But it's more of the, like what I what I think is it's more of the superficial qualifiers that you see people put up front that never really give people the opportunity to show that they are a worthwhile partner. Whereas back in the day where you know you you would meet someone not from social media, you really don't have this like you didn't stalk them for six weeks before you entered a relationship. Yes. You really were forced to learn about them and really make a more informed decision. Yes. Whereas now it's like you can look at someone's looks and maybe just a real quick snapshot of how they present themselves and be like, no. Whereas maybe that person is actually like the perfect match for you. Right. You just didn't get it, give them an opportunity to go and speak at a you know a deeper level and learn about them. And so like I I personally wonder like if people are too quick to like disqualify people in relationships that would probably be amazing partners. Well, probably that they just don't get the chance.

SPEAKER_02 29:02

Yeah, probably. I mean, but it's designed that way, really, in reality, right? Like it's not we're seeing a picture. And so we're basing this snapshot judgment on, and this these apps are a lot of times meant for quick, right? Quick swipes and whatnot. It's not probably filter, right?

SPEAKER_03 29:17

Like what you're looking for.

SPEAKER_02 29:18

Right. I'm sure. Yes. Yeah, I yeah, I I mean, I don't know, but I'm I wouldn't be surprised.

SPEAKER_03 29:24

Most search programs they let you filter stuff, Daniel.

SPEAKER_02 29:28

It it's not designed to look at the profile, right? It doesn't say like what might be of really great benefit if you saw what someone had to say first.

SPEAKER_03 29:38

But you would be bored. You wouldn't want to read a freaking autobiography on somebody before you go on a date.

SPEAKER_02 29:42

You're just like right. It's designed that way for a reason, right? Yes. So yeah, in that sense, yes. And it's I think it's that way by design. I like to tell people who are dating, put it all out there. Like put the things on your profile to really make sure that whoever is actually trying to communicate with you that they actually want to commute communicate with you because they like what you had to say.

SPEAKER_08 30:05

Right. Be authentic. Correct. Don't just hide the thing because it's gonna be a disqualifier later.

SPEAKER_02 30:10

Correct. And then the other thing that I like to encourage people to do is so you know, the game guess who.

SPEAKER_04 30:15

Yes, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 30:16

Yeah. So, you know, like you want to have like the best questions to knock out as many people as possible, right? Like, key one is do you have facial hair? That's a helpful one, right? Just pro tip.

SPEAKER_03 30:26

But so is that a good or a bad thing?

SPEAKER_02 30:29

Well, no, it's a blow. In the game, because you eliminate so many people. I know. Is he bold? Is he eliminated? Yeah, so I always jokingly, but seriously, ask people like, think about your guess who questions to knock out the people that you really don't want to spend time with, right? Like, even if it's an off-the-wall question, if someone plays along, you're more than likely like, okay, like I want to hear more about what you have to say.

SPEAKER_03 30:56

So let me ask you this. What should some of those questions be?

SPEAKER_02 30:59

Great question. Um, I think things like I like asking questions or encouraging people, even couples that are married. Like, if you want a million bucks, what would you do with it? Or if you were an animal, what kind of animal would you be and why? Or if you had a super power, what would it be? Just something that's kind of off the wall a little bit, but it makes people come out of their shell a little bit. And if they're like, oh, I don't know, it's like, well, if you don't want to play and dream, then maybe you're not for me.

SPEAKER_03 31:28

What about politics?

SPEAKER_02 31:30

That might be a good one.

SPEAKER_03 31:32

I've had a few encounters where I talk to people in my network and they're like, oh, like me and my significant other, we don't, we never discuss politics because we just don't agree. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 31:43

I I personally feel like that would be a kind of a tough It happens, and it happens pretty frequently, and it is tough. I think at the end of the day, if you have at least some or a good chunk of aligned values, I think you'll be all right. Um, because at the end of the day, maybe we don't see eye to eye politically, but maybe we value human kindness and treating people with respect.

SPEAKER_03 32:11

Right. Well, what level of importance would you say that that is in our early relationship? Like, let's say you're 60 to 90 days into a relationship, you're like, I generally like everything about this person. I have I have no idea what they think politically, though. What would you tell someone how important it is to at least have a political discussion? I say that, it's maybe maybe it's a little bit loaded because I feel like to not have that could present a problem later down the road if you just kind of avoided it early on in a relationship. Because some of those things, political politics can be very passionate and people could have really strong opinions that lead back to their moral beliefs and their worldview. Right. And so what are what would your advice be to someone who's early in that like first 60 days of a relationship where they really like someone, but maybe they haven't had that discussion yet. How would how should they approach it?

SPEAKER_02 33:04

I think having hard conversations is important. And so whether it's about politics, whether it's about parenting, whether it's about religion, whether it's about how much family involvement we want in our lives, kind of thing. Cause like at the end of the day, to me, politics are really like we align with certain values, right? And some people aren't incredibly political, right? So if somebody is like, I don't really value that stuff, but I do value these things, then we talk about those things, right? So it really, I think, depends on how much, how important that is to you. So even the topic of being a parent, right? If it's really important for you to have kids, then you should have that conversation. Because I think that that's where we run into some snags with people that are dating, is because we're just so excited. And I just really like you, and you make me feel good, and I like how I feel when I'm around you. And so then we can kind of ignore some of those harder topics out of fear that it's not going to go well or that you're gonna say things that I didn't think you were going to say or that I don't like.

SPEAKER_08 34:07

Well, it's up to you, it will upset the other person, and then you get not all the warm joy feelings. You get something negative, and you're like, oh, this might be a deal breaker. Exactly. Because it is, I mean, it's funny that that comes up because uh my wife and I were together almost 20 years and we never talked about politics. Um, we talked about things that we value and our belief system, and it was funny. Like, we just kind of it was just one event, we're like, hey, what do you are like are you happy about this? Not happy. And again, it was the first time we'd ever talked about politics and we were together 20 years.

SPEAKER_03 34:45

So it can work, but I think what you're describing is like what she said. You speak about the values and things right that are maybe related to politics, but not the actual talking points that you hear about. Yeah, it's funny because me and my wife, so we we started dating when I was 17 and we're 38 and 39 now. So we've done it for a long time. Yeah, which I think is rare for our age group. Yes, you know. Um, but I remember like I and I didn't grow up in a political household. I grew up with a single mom who was a house cleaner, got education, worked hard. We really didn't talk politically, like everything looking in at my upbringing would say, like, oh, he's probably for sure like a Democrat. We were on welfare. It was the opposite, though. Like, we were my mom was very driven to be independent and get off of that stuff, and like, no, you should pull yourself up by your bootstraps and all that. But we never spoke politics. Never. But like the second date me and my wife had, we actually were like talking politics. I was like 17 and 18-year-olds, so stupid. Looking back.

SPEAKER_04 35:43

I'm like, why did that break?

SPEAKER_03 35:46

Yeah, yeah, you want to get wild. Talk politics. Got deep quick. Yeah, yeah. It was funny though. But like, you know, it wasn't anything crazy, but it was just like it was kind of like ideas. Like, she went to a Catholic school, I went to a public school. Sure. And so like I asked her questions about that, which I think naturally led to some of those like moral worldview questions. Yes. You know, how do you feel about certain things? And uh, I guess for me it was nice because I already knew where she stood on most things early on, versus like I I feel, and again, it's just my experience, but I feel like it'd be weird to like go 10 years or so and not know like which way someone votes. Sure. Like to me, that is like that's crazy. Like, what if it was wildly different? Like, because some topics can be really important. Right.

SPEAKER_08 36:35

Well, you know when we first started dating, I don't think the sides were so far apart. And now they're very divisive, and yeah, they were usually kind of arguing about something simple simplistic now. Now it's yeah, and now it's a little bit uh going too much too far. Um but your expertise are marriages and relationships. Uh so getting into like marriages, if things aren't going well, I guess what I guess would be your advice to um kind of start the trend of getting back on track.

SPEAKER_02 37:14

So just from a therapist perspective, I always find it incredibly beneficial when we don't come when everything's on fire.

SPEAKER_04 37:22

Right.

SPEAKER_02 37:23

Really helpful for from the therapist perspective. If like because a lot of times people like if you actually look at it, like the statistics for couples therapy is actually pretty garbage. And a lot of times it's because people come when they're like one foot out the door and just want to check a box. Well, we went to therapy and it didn't work, right? Whereas if you would have come maybe a couple years before, there may have been a chance. So I think what I like to tell people, I need two things from you. I need the willingness to try and the want to be here. And if I have those two things, like I feel like we can get through almost anything.

SPEAKER_08 38:02

And you have to have it from both parties. Correct. Because sometimes I feel like people are like, we're on the the last limb. And it's like, okay, let's go. And one person's like, I'm uh okay. I guess.

SPEAKER_03 38:15

We're the one with the issue. Why don't you go? Right. Right.

SPEAKER_08 38:18

Right.

SPEAKER_03 38:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 38:18

So we call that the identified patient. Yeah. So a lot of times you see that more in in family therapy. Like, there's four of us here. We're just here because Johnny is the bad one. We're we're all cool. We're here because of Johnny. So same thing for couples. Like, I'm just here because she wants me to be here.

SPEAKER_03 38:35

Do you see that a lot?

SPEAKER_02 38:36

Sometimes, yeah. I mean, I feel like it's less so now. Okay. I feel like now it's a little bit more like I'm begrudgingly here, but I'm here. Whereas I'd say, let's say five years ago, definitely 10 years ago, is like I'm here because she's forcing me to be here essentially, or because this is my last straw, or this is my last ditch effort kind of thing. Whereas I feel like now there may be a hint of begrudging to be there because it's hard work. But I think there's more buy-in now. I hear less and less of I don't believe in therapy. That was always my favorite thing that people would say as if I was like a some sort of psychic. Um, okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 39:22

Well that's encouraging. Yeah. Um what is some uh are you on social media fairly regularly? Yes. Okay, so uh is there any advice that you're seeing thrown around out there for couples that is actually like when you see it, like what are the things you see non-therapists throw out there, influencers, girlfriends, boyfriends, whatever. What are some of the trends that you're seeing thrown out there that is actually pretty terrible advice?

SPEAKER_02 39:47

I think just somebody who doesn't have the experience is although you may have experienced it yourself as a human being, that is very different than going through years of education and years of doing therapy work. You know, while therapists do that 3,000 hours, they're supervised. So you have to meet with a supervisor every single week to discuss all of your cases to go, what am I doing? How am I doing it? And I love the placement I was at because we did a double-sided mirror also. So I'd have my supervisor in my ear, and all of my colleagues were on an the side, other side of a mirror that they would be watching me do therapy. And so, like, no pressure.

SPEAKER_03 40:34

Yeah, that's pretty cool though.

SPEAKER_02 40:35

I'm a baby therapist, and you're watching me do this, and she's in my ear and whatnot, and you do it for six weeks. And the client got it for free because you know, it's learning. Um, but it was really, really helpful because really, in reality, nobody knows what I'm doing in there except for the person who's on the other side of the room, right? And so they're the judge and jury, if you will. But to circle back, anybody who doesn't have that background, I don't, I am very hesitant to listen to their advice. I wouldn't listen to some random person who's like, well, I know this thing about, I don't know, some sort of eczema, let's say. Yeah, but I'm not a doctor. So you should listen to me.

SPEAKER_08 41:18

So you're telling me that because Colby and I are the best husbands that have ever existed on this earth, that we're not subject matter experts on giving marital advice? Well, I don't, I'm not sure.

SPEAKER_03 41:30

To that degree, though, like I always think like I always think like, look at people's track records and their patterns, and like, is that someone you should take advice from? Like maybe someone who has even a therapist, yeah? Like, I mean, obviously you guys see a wide variety, so of course, that's like the go-to. But what if you have a trusted friend that has been in a relationship for a really long time? Like, maybe they could be great for advice because obviously they're doing something right. Yeah. Now their relationship dynamics could look very different, right? But maybe they are a go-to person. But back to the social media thing, like you see a lot of you see a lot of this nowadays. It's like, know your worth, don't settle, that kind of stuff. And that I kind of find to be a little bit like dangerous for them to put information out there because it's so easy to just be like, the second you don't like something, it's like, oh, like, I'm not gonna settle, know my worth. Like that kind of mentality, I think, can be really limiting to someone's success in a relationship. Definitely. So, what are your thoughts on when you see that kind of language on social media? Like, does it irritate you as a therapist?

SPEAKER_02 42:34

Is it well to me it's it's uh as a therapist, it it's not up to me to decide like what you should do or not do, right? I my job is to hold space for you. And to me, my job is to hold a mirror up and go, okay, this is what I'm seeing. You like it, not like it, want to do something about it. Um and if they're like, Yeah, I want to do something about it, I always jokingly say, like, we're on a journey together, we're walking a path together, and I kick a rock in front of you, and the person goes, Oh my gosh, there's a rock there. I'm like, You found that. Pick it up, let's see what's on there. Um, so it's not up to me to decide if you should do that or not do that, right? But it is going to lead you down a certain path. And if every time you don't like what somebody has to say, you go, Oh, I know my worth, I'm out of here. Might be kind of lonely. Because at the end of the day, a part of a long-standing relationship is working through hard shit.

SPEAKER_08 43:31

Right. So I think you've you've probably heard um from couples or something that they've grown apart or fallen out of love. What are your um is that a real thing or what is definitely what's the uh what's your advice for a couple that comes in and says that?

SPEAKER_02 43:49

It it it happens a lot. It happens a lot, and and that's when we go, Oh, your car is fully rested right now. That's a lot of times like what Where that's at. And a lot of times it's that midlife space where you tend to see it. So kind of where we're all at, right? Um, and so a lot of times it, you know, we're in the thick of like children a lot of times or careers, but we're not in that new phase of like having babies or getting married or buying your first house. Like it's the thick of getting kids to soccer or baseball or dance or helping them with their homework or your parents are visiting or whatever it may be. It's just there's it's very busy phase of life. And what tends to happen is for one, we grow as people as we should. We're ever-evolving human beings. And then for two, we don't continuously check in and connect with one another, which in my opinion should happen every single day. Every single day. And it's not the how was your day? Good, how was your day? Good. It's tell me something on a scale of one to 10, how good do you feel today? 10 being I feel phenomenal, one feeling I'm garbage. Tell me more about that. Or there's um a wonderful woman named Brene Brown, and she talks about she has a great video, it's really short on marriage isn't 50-50. Sometimes somebody comes and they're like, I got 10%, I am depleted. But she kind of suggests that if you're under 50% collectively, we have a plan in place. But again, we have to know that.

SPEAKER_08 45:37

Right.

SPEAKER_02 45:38

We have to tell one another that. So curiosity and vulnerability are often what flies out the window when we're in the thick of life together. And so we kind of go like this, and we can go back like this, but we do that over and over and over again as long-standing relationships, but we have to remember to come back and do that and meet one another where we are.

SPEAKER_08 46:03

So is that the same advice you'd give for like um couples that are kind of in that that uh the guy's going through his midlife crisis and the uh wife may be going through her pre-menopause phase. I don't think that's talked about enough, but I think it's an important thing that sneaks up on couples that have been together a long time. So what are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02 46:24

Yeah, I think again, curiosity and vulnerability. Like if I had to nail it down to a couple things, that's what I would say. Because and and just holding space, really, in reality. Like this is we're in the thick of it. I think when you get to a certain phase in life when people have midlife crisis, it's this realization of like, oh, I can't go back. I'm never going to be 17 again. I'm never going to, you know, go through college again. I am like, I am now going this way, not that way. And there's this realization, um, an existential moment, if you will, where it's like, oh, did I do, did I do it justice? Did I do it right? Did I, do I regret anything? And almost this like wanting to grab hold of it and go, I don't, I have so much time left. And obviously, depending on what you believe, we have one chance to do it. And so I think it kind of hits you a little bit. And then I think there's not enough support. I think there's more talk about perimetopause, but there's not, it's it's gaining traction, but it's definitely not enough.

SPEAKER_08 47:25

Because that's gonna be a wild thing. It can be a wild ride for everyone.

SPEAKER_02 47:29

Yeah, yeah. Right.

SPEAKER_08 47:30

That's a significant hormonal change.

SPEAKER_02 47:33

Right. Somebody called it cougar puberty.

SPEAKER_08 47:38

That's good.

SPEAKER_02 47:39

Uh-huh. Yeah. Right. And not and not her doing, right? Whereas like she just is going through it, right? Um, you know, I I would equate it to you guys have gone through with your wife's pregnancy, right? And sometimes that's a wild emotional ride or even a physical ride.

SPEAKER_08 47:56

But you talk about it and the like, I think it's very common. People are like, oh yeah, she's pregnant. She's gonna ask for some weird thing. She's going through. And people are like, okay, we get husbands are like, Yeah, I'm excited, but uh, okay, I'll deal with that. Right. But they don't talk about the the second part. Yeah. You know, and you're like, okay, well, how do you navigate that world?

SPEAKER_02 48:15

Right. I think it's really getting to know her where she's at as she's getting to know herself where she's at.

SPEAKER_01 48:21

Right.

SPEAKER_02 48:21

And same for him, if we're talking about like a midlife crisis, right? Like what is coming up for you? Why now? Why is this a struggle now? Like what has triggered you? But again, that's curiosity and vulnerability again. And both parties have to be willing to do that. And key piece is we have to have an emotionally safe relationship to do that. If I feel like you're gonna use this against me the next time we have an argument, I don't want to say absolutely anything to you. So that's you know, we have to have that first. We have to know that we can talk and it's safe to do so. And then when we do, again, curiosity and vulnerability, I think, are two huge ones that can help tremendously. Um, and when we hold space, it's like today I feel I don't, I don't like everybody. Today I don't I'm a cactus. Don't come near me, don't talk to me, don't take anything I say personally. I'll say that sometimes at my house. Like, I don't know why I'm mad, but I'm mad, and I think everyone should give me some space. And don't take it personally, but like, I'm big mad and leave me alone. Everyone's like, hey, okay.

SPEAKER_03 49:31

Copy that. But it's so good that you communicate it though, so people are aware. And that's the missing missing piece, I think, for a lot of these issues is like you alluded to in the beginning, is that communication component and maintaining a high degree of curiosity and willingness to address these things. And I think when people, again, like you said, go too long with being quiet or passive and yeah, you see these issues.

SPEAKER_02 49:58

And sometimes it's not their fault, right? Sometimes it's just again that busyness of life. Yeah. And then it slows down a little and you're going, Oh, I don't even really know who you are.

SPEAKER_05 50:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 50:09

Or even who you are now. And so it's really kind of taking the time to again come back together and figure out who we are and how we make it make sense.

SPEAKER_08 50:21

So in long-term relationships, um, you know, whether it's 10, 15, 20 years, uh, what do couples normally stop doing um that you know maybe make them grow a little bit further apart?

SPEAKER_02 50:37

Yeah, I love that question. Um I think it's the I think it's the curiosity for sure. Cause it's like we just assume. I know them. I've been with them 20 years. I know that about them, right? We just assume when again we're ever evolving. But I also notice um we don't play enough. Just playfulness. Like just come up and poke you or dance in the kitchen or you know, go stand out in the rain together, whatever it may be, just playfulness. I saw something speaking of social media just yesterday on social media, but it was talking about like the opposite of like moving through trauma isn't healing. It's movement, it's playfulness, it's being alive, it's just experience. And I think that we kind of lose sight of that too. And a lot of times it's in that thick of life too. Like, I don't have time to go cannonball in the pool. I don't want to cold plunge with you this morning, right? I gotta get to work, kind of thing. Whereas we let things that at the end of the day don't really matter.

SPEAKER_03 51:43

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 51:44

When like they're a bid for attention.

SPEAKER_03 51:47

Yeah, I like that thing. I think my wife would say I play too much. I'm such like a I'm such a teaser. Like, I just but I think that's what brings humor to our relationship. Yes. Because I'm really good about like it's hard. Like, I really me and my wife both, we really rarely get mad. And I think the biggest thing is we laugh at everything and we still have that ability. I I never let it go. Like, I am, I don't know. Like, I think I definitely lean towards the side of playing too much sometimes. It's like, hey, can you be serious for a second? Which is funny because I think a lot of people like just look at me in general, they don't know me and they're like, Oh, the guy's kind of serious. And I'm like, not at all. Not at all. I think it's funny how people are so different behind their their closed doors with their family.

SPEAKER_02 52:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 52:27

But um, yeah, I think being playful is definitely, definitely helpful.

SPEAKER_02 52:31

Yeah. It's a part of vulnerability too, right? Uh it's um, you guys have heard of uh and and I'm assuming not, but maybe like John and Julie Gottman or like the Gottman method. Yeah. Yeah. So they have been researching couples for 50 years. And they have, I want to say it's like over 90% accuracy that they can predict if a couple's gonna get divorced within like 15 minutes.

SPEAKER_04 52:57

Oh wow.

SPEAKER_02 52:58

Yeah. Um, and what one of the things they talk about is bids for attention and how successful couples answer bids for attention. I want to say it's 80% of the time. And so bids for attention are that playfulness.

SPEAKER_08 53:13

Bidding for attention. Yeah, I like attention.

SPEAKER_02 53:18

And it but it could be anything, right? It could be like, man, it is hot out today. And they talk about how there's three different ways we approach it. Either we turn towards, we turn away, or we turn against. So turn towards is what we want. Obviously, yeah, it's so hot. I am sweating everywhere. You know, that's turning towards. I'm engaging with you. Preferably eye contact, my body is turned towards you, things like that. Turning away is like, yeah, yeah, yeah. I gotta get to work. It's yeah, it's hot every day. It's summertime. That's this like kind of dismissive, like, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like halfway paying attention. And turning against is like, I don't care that it's hot outside. It's hot every day, it's summertime.

SPEAKER_03 53:58

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:59

So, and again, when we're so busy and stressed, it's easy to get barky like that.

SPEAKER_03 54:05

Yeah. That's usually when I like throw a uh cushioned soccer ball at my wife's face or something, you know. It's like, look alive.

SPEAKER_02 54:14

That's your bid for attention.

SPEAKER_03 54:17

I'm so bad at that. Yeah, but she knows me so well, so like she knows it's she's probably good at reflexes right at this point, huh?

SPEAKER_02 54:23

Just like grab it.

SPEAKER_03 54:24

But it's funny like having kids now, like having a daughter, because like I have a daughter and a son, but like sometimes I take some of that energy out. It's kind of nice for my wife, probably, because I take some of it out on the kids now. You know, like the other day, my one my daughter was walking in the front door, and me and my wife are sitting on the couch, and like I was holding what was it? It was uh gosh, I forgot what it was. Whatever it was, I was like, I'm gonna throw this at Julie's face, right? When she walks in and held her right between the eyes as she walks in.

SPEAKER_08 54:49

But hey, she never lets you, she never stopped talking about it.

SPEAKER_03 54:52

Yeah, no, no, she didn't. But uh, my daughter's the spinning image of me personality-wise, for the for the most part, she's a little more talkative, but she's got that Aunri, like playful kind of teasing.

SPEAKER_02 55:03

So she can appreciate something thrown at her of like a bid for attention.

SPEAKER_03 55:07

Yeah, but she'll be dramatic about it, of course.

SPEAKER_08 55:11

Now, um, one of the things that uh my wife and I made it a point to is when we had kids, um, was to make sure that our relationship was the priority. Uh, how many people would you say is it common uh in your field to have people coming in and where um all their time and energy gets a hundred percent invested in the the children and the relationships gets lost. Yes. And how do you guide them through that?

SPEAKER_02 55:40

Yeah, I I think um that happens more often than not. And you know, if you think about it, I mean, even the way how much a baby changes in the first year of life, right? You come out and you look like a little old man that can't hold up your own head to like walking, right? Yeah, right. But by the one year, they're usually walking, right? And they're totally if you have a full wardrobe change four times over that year. So your attention goes into helping this person who depends on you for survival.

SPEAKER_08 56:08

Well, as we had our doctor say early on, it's like, okay, now that they're moving, they're gonna try to commit suicide a thousand times a day. And it's your job to prevent the suicide attempts by your top boy.

SPEAKER_02 56:19

Right, right. And so, like, how do we have a deep conversation together when like he's standing on the coffee table? Right. And so it's it's challenging, but you have to get creative, but we have to know that it's there too.

SPEAKER_08 56:34

Right. That's a and that's the advice I I would give is I have seen couples really struggle when, and you know, it's usually the mom that goes a hundred percent into the kids are the everything, the sun rises and sets, and it's like, and then usually the husband gets kind of pushed off by the wayside. Um and so I would encourage people to like talk about that. Like you don't always get to choose how your kids you know, how they come out and their personalities, whatever, but you chose this person. Make sure that you guys stay the priority, your your relationship stays the priority. The kids will see it and benefit greatly from that.

SPEAKER_02 57:12

Absolutely. Key piece though is like preferably, and that's example you're giving, I would want husband to be vulnerable and say, Hey, I get that you're in the throes of motherhood and this is new to you, or it's new that we have two now or three or whatever it may be. And I need you too. And how do we figure that out? I know it's challenging. I know we don't we're pressed for time. Maybe we don't have family around or child care help, but like maybe after kids go to bed, or maybe before they wake up, maybe we try to do lunch together, maybe we have, you know, a lot of times I there's a lot of moments where I've really encouraged men specifically, put a reminder on your phone.

SPEAKER_05 57:59

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:00

And call her, text her. If you need a reminder on your phone, use technology.

SPEAKER_03 58:06

It's no excuse to your advantage. Right. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 58:08

Like use it to your advantage to wear, check in. Like it doesn't have to be four hours. We got to roll with what we got.

SPEAKER_08 58:16

Oh, the I'm thinking about you, love you text.

SPEAKER_02 58:20

Exactly.

SPEAKER_08 58:21

Money.

SPEAKER_02 58:21

Exactly. I actually have a box of cards under my office, uh my couch in my office, um, specifically for usually men. They're all blank. And so when they're in a rough spot, I'm like, let's get a card out for you, and you can take this home. And you just won, right? Like you're gonna look like the hero. You didn't have to go to the store, you didn't have to think of it and write whatever you want in it. But I have a full, I always keep it stocked to where like you can grab a card anytime.

SPEAKER_03 58:50

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_02 58:51

That's awesome.

SPEAKER_03 58:52

Um, so this next question, it might kind of ask you to give into some generalities, but we asked this because you have experience with both sexes, men and women in relationships. Are there any general or general like things that men misunderstood misunderstand more often about women and vice versa?

SPEAKER_02 59:13

Yes. I think that happens quite a bit. Whereas men tend to be very literal. Like you told me to do the laundry. And yes, she did tell you to do the laundry, but a lot of times it's the mental load that we're missing. Men often don't see that typically, obviously, not in every household, women tend to be the ones that hold that mental load of like, okay, I gotta make cookies for the teachers for the end of year, and then my mom's gotta have the this, and then I've gotta, you know, set the doctor appointment, and then I've got to sign the field trip permission slip. And I'm, you know, like in my household, I'm the only one that gets the school emails, you know. So shit like that. That men tend to forget, like, well, I you wanted my help and I did the laundry and um, or want guidance, like the direct, like the literal, like, do the laundry. Yeah. Um, whereas she's going, look around. You live here too. Find a thing to do. Um, or you know that they go to school, or you know that it's your mom's birthday. What school do they go to?

SPEAKER_07 1:00:22

Another teacher that what greater thing I can't remember?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:26

Yeah. So she's holding that mental load, right? Of like they're eight. This is their teacher, right? Um, there's that. I see that very commonly. But then for women, it's like let them.

SPEAKER_08 1:00:38

That's a good book. My wife swears by that book.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:41

But it's like, but get out of the way a little bit. Or like, you know, if you're gonna die in a certain hill, like, you know, the dishwasher being put together a certain way, then that's your job. But if you really want help and that's not like it's okay, then let it be what it is. Yeah. Uh, because a lot of times there is this mentality of like, ah, it's just easier to do it myself. When in reality, then we're just stuck in a feedback loop and we're trying to get out of it. And again, that's where we got to change the dance move. So I would say those are probably the most common where men need like that directness, and then women have sometimes a harder time letting go because by the time they get to therapy, it's pretty they've been doing this for years.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:25

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

Where I've been taking this on for years, and so letting it go and trusting that you're gonna do it, and trusting that you're gonna do it in your own time too.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:35

Yeah. Which to the most women's point, speaking of my wife, like she shouldn't have to ask me to do certain things, and I know it, like, sure, because that's that's a component to that, right? It's like I I totally um sympathize with what you just said as far as men were very just like, just tell me what to do. Like, not a big deal. I'll probably do it if you just told me. Yeah, but instead, you go through these vague, different, like backdoor ways of saying things that I don't really process when I'm like, could you just tell me exactly what you want? It's kind of like the movie of the notebook. It's the movie of the notebook, right? When they're arguing when it's like, what do you want? What do you want? Right. Like, just say it.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:14

Right. What thing would help you the most? I'll do it. Yes. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:17

But what that's saying is, I need you to manage me too.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:21

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:22

Right? Like, I need you to manage me too.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:24

And in reality, because we're already managing the kids. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:27

And so it's like, ah, right? Like that's just gonna sender over the edge. And so it because you're grown adult.

SPEAKER_04 1:02:35

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:35

Right. And so it I think that happens more often than not in just again the thick of life. Even or even in those earlier years, right? Like, especially if we're talking about mom's breastfeeding. So she's the one waking up every, you know, all hours of the night and things like that. It just is easy to have that snowball.

SPEAKER_08 1:02:59

What things, um, I don't know the exact way to word this. Um do men or women you have to tell them that they really don't want to hear.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:12

That they're part of the problem.

SPEAKER_08 1:03:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:16

Especially when somebody perceives that it's like, again, like this one's the identified patient, not me. I'm just coming in here so you can tell them that they're uh the problem. Because a lot of people see me as like a referee. I am not a referee, and nor do I want to be a referee. I like to remind people, um, which is very much the case. If somebody comes to me individually, that is my client. But if there's a couple that come to me, your relationship is my client. So it's my job to point out when one of you is messing with my client.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:49

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:50

And so we each contribute. So I like to remind people, even if you say nothing at all, that's still a choice and that still contributes to a dynamic. Right. So people don't really love that.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:01

Because then we want you to tell me I'm right. Exactly. That's right.

SPEAKER_00 1:04:06

Exactly. Exactly. That is really, really hard for people to hear.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:11

Do you have a do you have a hard time? And this is more of just like just a personality question. Like, sure. And maybe you've grown better through the years, but like, do you have a hard time? Like when you see an obvious, there has to be some situations where you're like, that's obviously wrong, this is right. Like, how do you address that? Or do you have a hard time addressing that with the couple and saying, like, look, this person's right? Do you ever say that?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

I mean, it really depends on the therapeutic relationship. You know, so like if I've had we've been connected therapeutically for years, obviously the way I speak to you and the way I connect with you is going to be different than someone who is two sessions in. So a lot of times I like to say, hey, this comes from the most loving place possible. And like you're screwing it up straight up. But I do tell people over the phone, like when the initial consultation, like, I am very direct, and that is not a fit for everyone, and that is okay. It is perfectly fine if you want someone to hold space, just give empathetic statements, totally fine. And by the end of session one, you will know if I'm a fit for you or not. And I like to tell people, I'll carry the heavy stuff with you, but you gotta hold up your end. I can't want something for you more than you want it for yourself. So I am pretty direct, but that is my style. Whereas a lot of therapists, I would say, are not nearly as comfortable in having that type of style. But I think that's why my personality works well with first responders. It's because I'm gonna kind of just directly tell you like it is. I'm not going to tippy toe around it. I'm going to give it to you straight. And I also think the sailor mouth helps too.

unknown 1:05:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:05:55

Um, do you have a situation where um maybe you You see like one half, one half of the relationship for let's say a year. And they're like, Hey, well, I'm gonna bring my spouse in, and can we and maybe what they portrayed individually was not what you saw on the other other end of it.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:21

Yeah, a great question. They so technically, like, you're not, we're not so if someone wants to come in, I like to say as like a guest star. Like for one session, you can do that. And that could be that could be a parent. That could I only see adults. So it would be so if you're struggling with your sister and you want to bring your sister in, she could come in for what one session as like a guest star.

SPEAKER_08 1:06:43

Who would want to do that?

SPEAKER_03 1:06:46

I I have to be in my in the room with my sister for longer, right?

SPEAKER_08 1:06:50

So what you're saying is somebody who's been seeing you has been talking so much shit inviting you in to enjoy the shit show and I'm in person's gonna participate.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:05

And this is why, like, ethically, we're not allowed to do that. Like you aren't ethically allowed. So my rule is always two. If I've seen you twice, like we're in an individual therapeutic relationship now. Because at that point, it's not fair to the other person. Like, I am going to naturally lean your direction because I've heard way more of the story, right? And it's it's not fair to that person who's coming in as a guest star. So that's why we aren't allowed to do that. You can go from couples therapy to individual therapy if both people agree, but we can't go the other way for that reason because we started off with the therapeutic relationship only with one person.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:45

That makes sense.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:07:46

So we're not because that would be fucked.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:48

Yes, exactly. Exactly. I wouldn't want to do that. Yeah, I feel like you're being thrown to the wolves a little bit. I bet. Yes, absolutely. So we're not allowed, and again, for good reason. Yeah. The ethics are there for a reason.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:02

Um so I guess going into um Colby and I have spent years uh as first responders. Um, and you work a lot with first responders. How tell me kind of what led you into working with first responders.

SPEAKER_02 1:08:20

Yeah. So my dad was a medically retired chippy, so early years cadet, and then turned private investigator for the entirety of my life. And so he had all those beautiful character traits of a first responder as well as both of my uncles being career cops as well. So I was around it quite a bit to where it felt like a very natural fit to kind of roll into working with first responders, but again, specifically cops. I am happy to help fire. I think there's just a typical or uh affinity a little bit more for law enforcement because it's just more familiar to me.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:58

So with law enforcement, um one of the things I don't think that uh is communicated or is uh taught enough is um about being uh the spouse of a uh someone who's involved in law enforcement, working with first responders, what would you say that would be what would be some important information for uh wives of first responders?

SPEAKER_02 1:09:24

Um I think trying to hold space for them and recognizing that there are times it's it's unfortunate, you know, when I was talking earlier, like saying where we're at, right? I am prickly today, I don't want you to take anything I'm saying personally, I need some space. First responders aren't typically very good at that vulnerability. And so we're fine.

SPEAKER_08 1:09:48

We're we're allowed to be fine and angry.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:51

Fine or angry. Right, right, right. So I typically, I mean, yes, I do help the spouses of first responders, but a lot of times I'm helping the first responder. So I'm on the other end where I'm saying, you have to tell her how you feel. You have to tell her that it was a rough day. You have to say, I'm at a two.

SPEAKER_04 1:10:11

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:10:12

You have to say, I need 30 minutes. So I think it's on the other end, it's like allowing that, right? Giving space for that or recognizing that sometimes it's not going to go exactly as planned. Whereas, like, okay, it's obviously a rough day. But again, preferably the first responder is saying that.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:32

Well, because they don't know, right? They don't know what day you just have unless you communicate that when you get home. Right. Which I get from the first responder side. Sometimes you spent your whole day talking to people and explaining things. And then after this egregious call, you have to go and write a report on it.

SPEAKER_08 1:10:48

And everybody wants to know about it. So you have to tell the story eight times.

SPEAKER_03 1:10:51

Yeah, I think that was my in my career, that was the hardest part from the first responder's point of view. And going home was that my mindset, and maybe this is for the for maybe for the wives at home or spouses of first responders that they could benefit. Hearing it from me, sometimes after explaining what I just did a thousand times before I even leave shift, again, you're dealing with it on the call, you're probably explaining it to your supervisor or your partner, then you're writing it on a a death uh an arrest form for the jail. Then you go to the the uh station, then you write your report on it, and then someone asks you, Hey, how was that call? And then you tell them about it. By the time you get home, the last thing you want to do is say, Hey, honey, like I just got done doing this call and explaining it. It's really it's to me, it was kind of like, I don't want to talk about it. Like, I just I want to talk about anything other than that, or just not talk. I'm just tired of talking.

SPEAKER_02 1:11:44

Right, right. But the preference is that before you get to that space, it's your day off, and we have a plan of again, it could be that one to ten scale. It could be like with fire, we'll use that like the fire colors, right? So like I'm red, it's not good, stay away. But that they know that. And so then it's like, oh, okay. Like I can speak to my job specifically. I can't even talk about what happened in my day. I cannot, it could have been screwed. It could have been so hard because people don't come because they're like, hey, I'm doing really great and I really want to tell you about it. Right. We're in a rough spot, and I'm doing that seven times over in a day. And so when I come home, I'm like, and often what I will say is like I help people made decisions all day long. Like, I don't even want to make a decision of where we're going to dinner. If I want that for dinner, I I can't do it. I can relate to that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:38

Sounds relatable and something.

SPEAKER_07 1:12:40

I had to life coach everybody today. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:12:42

So I think I think that would be important for for spouses of those in law enforcement or this, these type of professions is like when your sole job is to help people make decisions and solve problems. Right. The last thing you want to do when you get home is solve another problem. Right. And it's not that you don't care because I think that can be from the other perspective, it could be like, well, you just don't care. Like you don't want to be involved in these decisions. And it's no, it's not that I don't care. It's that I'm just exhausted from making decisions. I don't have any care left in my tank today. Right. So maybe, maybe a couple days off, then I would probably start caring, you know, caring again.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:16

Right. But not realistic, right? It's not realistic.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:19

I generally don't care.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:20

Right. But not realistic to have a couple days off, right? Sometimes or even off from making decisions. So let's just like if we were to stick with that example and let's just say we have to tap in. Give me 30 minutes. I'm gonna attempt to regulate and then I'll come back and do the best I can. Can you make the decision about dinner? And then I will do the best I can to tap in.

SPEAKER_03 1:13:44

Right. Like, don't ask me anything the first hour I'm home. Right. Would that be fair?

SPEAKER_02 1:13:48

Yes, I think it would be fair. And I but I also think establishing that ahead of time. Because what we where we screw it up is we walk in going, I need an hour. How can I been helping people solve problems all day? I need time.

SPEAKER_07 1:14:02

But it's like you've been gone for 12 and a half hours.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:06

Right. All right, right. And the the saddest part is they're oftentimes they're so happy to see you. They're just so excited. They're like, here you are. Right. And now I want to shower you with all the love and energy. And it's like, ah, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:21

And so think about that as that slow erosion. Because I don't want to be rejected over and over and over again. So more than likely, I'm gonna try less and less and less and less.

SPEAKER_08 1:14:34

So is that what you'd say is probably the uh the biggest mistake that first responders make coming home is not bringing um, I guess, a positive energy. Or what would you say is another thing that officers could do?

SPEAKER_02 1:14:48

It's not even and you don't need to be positive, right? But just just own it. This is this is a really screwed day, and I need some time, or today was okay, and like this is where I'm at. But again, that vulnerability, I think we tend to not do it, right? And so, and this career is not a career that fosters being vulnerable and sharing your feelings. And so it's it can be challenging to come off of that. So, like therapeutically in my head, you do certain things that change your mindset to help you transition to being at home. So leaving, like taking a shower and leaving the like washing the uniform or leaving the uniform at work, or taking a shower and getting on the clothes there and leaving it behind. And imagine when you're in the shower that you're washing away all of those calls, all of the heaviness, getting rid of all of it. Or that's the first thing you do when you walk in the door. You say, hi, I love you, I'm gonna be with you in 30 minutes, and you go to your room and you do that exact thing because you'd rather do it at home, not at the station. Or you take a walk in between, or you're listening to this music that you like to listen to. So there's different forms of self-care. There's activating and there's soothing self-care and knowing the difference and knowing what you need is important too. So if I am just burnt to a crisp and I have nothing left to give, I'm going to want more soothing self-care. And if today was really anxiety-provoking, or I am really angry, or I'm frustrated, or I just felt like everything I tried to do, it didn't work, or just different dead ends, or whatever it may be. That's when we want activating self-care. So it's the idea like if I'm pretty anxious or pissed or frustrated, like if you've ever tried to read a book when you're in that space.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:48

No, that's a waste of time.

SPEAKER_02 1:16:50

We're just over and over again reading it, right? And you're like, ah, and it's more frustrating, right? Because I'm trying to give soothing self-care to someone who needs activating self-care.

SPEAKER_08 1:16:59

What's an example of activating self-care?

SPEAKER_02 1:17:01

Um, well, I so my oldest son plays on a travel baseball team and they had this pretty solid losing streak that was happening. And you can tell these little boys that are roughly 12 years old are really getting in their head about it. So it's almost like they walked into a game just going, I'm gonna lose kind of thing. So I had them all come over. Um, they were doing little boy things, having fun, whatever it may be. Um, and I realized I'm gonna tell cops that I had kids throw eggs, but you know, like I had them throw some eggs. And we have a big open field where, you know, it's gonna decompose or some animals gonna really enjoy that egg. But I had them write down all the things they wanted to get rid of. So I gave every kid a Sharpie. They got to write down all the mindset stuff. Like I the only one I saw was one kit wrote, I I haven't hit. I had no hitting streak. And then you imagine that you're putting all that energy into that, and then you toss it and get rid of it. So writing stuff down is really helpful, hence why journaling. A lot of cops are like, Really? Really? So I'm like, okay, grab the notepad on your phone, hold down the microphone, just talk. Just talk or or just talk out loud, but get it out of your body. Get it out. Or breaking stuff that's appropriate to break.

SPEAKER_07 1:18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:24

Yeah, right. So it's like if I'm gonna get go to the dumps with this old dresser, just you know, take a hammer to it before you do. It's gotta be broken down anyway. Why not? Yeah, it's gonna be a big thing.

SPEAKER_03 1:18:36

Healthy ways to destroy stuff. Correct, yes, off the spacing with the the printer. That's a pretty building. Right. There's just yeah, they have those now. They're called like rage rooms. Yes, exactly.

SPEAKER_02 1:18:49

Exactly. I w have often recommended people to go there. Uh huh. And I often remind them though, if you start bawling after you've broken a bunch of things, that makes absolute sense.

SPEAKER_03 1:19:00

It's a sign you needed that release. Exactly. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:19:03

But really, in reality, that was the you know, the primary emotion was sadness, probably. You just it was like massed with a lot of anger in there, layers of anger, because that's appropriate for men and particularly first responders to feel.

SPEAKER_08 1:19:18

I think it's a great idea. It's one of the things that I thought about years ago. So one of my buddies asked me after one of the numerous um mass shootings, they're like, what can be done? It's like, I don't want to hear about gun control. I don't want to hear that there's nothing that can be done. And so that was my idea that I responded to. I actually gave it a good amount of thought. I was like, well, where is a good amount of a release for for men or even women that have just like they're just angry. Like some people can come back from the military and they're like, okay, I was in combat. And okay, that's where I felt alive, and that's where I felt like I was at my my best, and that's what they're built for. Like thousands of years ago, they would have been, you know, the elite of the tribe or whatever, because they're the the nomadic, like, let's kill them all. And now they're in society going, oh, let's everything need to be nice, taking control of everything. Right. It's like, okay, maybe they're 50 years old and they can't they can't fight in the UFC or go into a boxing match, or like, okay, I'm past that time. Where do I get my where do I get a release of the rage or the anger that I feel? Because everything makes you look like a psychopath.

SPEAKER_00 1:20:32

Well, jujitsu's good for that, right? Jiu Jitsu is a good one.

SPEAKER_08 1:20:35

But that's I think not that it's new, but it's it's becoming more of a a newer thing. But I felt bad for the people that's like, okay, yeah, just going and punching walls is is not okay. Everybody's gonna think you're a psychopath. Um so I am glad that they came up with something because some people probably really, really need it. Yes. Um to get that just yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:20:59

Well, everybody needs a different style of release too. Like what is good for you may not be good for you, it may not be good for me. Yes. Or even the dad. So yeah, maybe that could be a I don't know, something that people tackle in society a little bit more is like finding ways to get release from anger. Because anger is an emotion that's natural. And but when you're uh like you said, to your point, in society where you're told to suppress these things and be docile, and you should just you should just know better. Like, well, stifling down anger is a dangerous thing because it's like a pressure cooker.

SPEAKER_04 1:21:32

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:21:32

Where at some point it's gotta release. Right. And depending on your mental state, what that release looks like is kind of scary.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:39

Like well, not only that, but we tend to overlook how that comes out in physically too.

SPEAKER_05 1:21:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:21:45

Now you're not sleeping or you have digestive issues, or you have headaches, or you have muscle tension and things like that, and you're not sure why, you go to the doctor, all the labs say you're fine. A lot of times we're not connecting the two, that your body is holding on to that tension and it needs to be released. And, you know, obviously, I want to pay homage to the fact that like trauma work is different than self-care, right? Whereas, like, if there are like you did go to combat and things like that, I would probably guess that some trauma work would probably be needed. No amount of eggs is gonna really be like, you know what?

SPEAKER_08 1:22:28

Like good now. I wrote some good stuff on that egg before I threw it.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:33

That person's threshold for his release is a lot higher than those kids that you were offering the eggs for.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:39

Right, right.

SPEAKER_08 1:22:40

I don't know, a bad hitting streak, man. That's pretty rough.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:43

It is rough, especially when you're 12, you know? It's that's rough when you're 12. Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:22:49

So, this next question I'm gonna ask, because we are are and have been first responders, don't be afraid to be abrasive, don't be afraid to just call it out.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:00

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:23:00

And you said you're pretty direct. I am so I would appreciate direct answers. Okay. What are the what are the most common excuses? If you had to categorize, these are straight up excuses that are not acceptable that you hear from cops. When it when it comes to their relationship issues, what are those excuses?

SPEAKER_02 1:23:20

I I hear a lot of I I I feel like it's common to be like almost like this is how I am kind of thing. I think that is probably probably the most common. Um and also I I don't know that there is, I feel like cops do a really good job at their direct too. So they'll they'll take it. And so don't feel like there's as much excuses. By the time you walk into my door, you're ready typically to do the work. You might be a little freaked out because you've never done this before, or this is uncomfortable, or where is this journey gonna go? But I I I think that the only thing that sticks out to me is like, oh, this is how I am, or there is kind of almost like this is not what men do kind of thing. But I do feel like that has changed a lot.

SPEAKER_03 1:24:19

What do you think about blaming it on the culture of police work though? Like almost like this is an expectation that people and I'll say why I'm saying this, maybe this will help you in your assessment. I've always felt because I taught at academies as well, okay, you know, early on, and I obviously went through an academy back in 2011 and received this training and stuff, and and I think it's with good intention, so I don't want to come across as like these people suck. But like I feel like the industry and law enforcement has always done a poor job by telling officers or young cadets that this is a profession where marriages fail, drinking is common, and it's just the way it is. They always say that, and then they obviously their intentions are to tell you like, be careful of these sayings, like their intentions are are good, totally pure. But when you over over hammer into cadets, like you're probably gonna have relationship issues. It's just it's just part of the profession. You're probably gonna at some point start drinking, part of the profession. You're really ingraining in these people's heads, these young, impressionable men and women, that this is just police culture. And so what I find is that when you start drinking or you start having issues, it can be really easy to justify. And maybe I'm speaking just in general, so I could be wrong, but I could see how that could be like a justifying like thing. Like, oh, I was always taught like this is the way it's going to be. So you almost justify your own behavior, like it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. Yeah, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, like you're almost manifesting, like, oh, this is what they told me. So, like when you face those scenarios where with like a say a relationship issue or you're drinking, it's that much easier to just feel comfortable with it, like uh, I kind of expected it. It's not so foreign and not, I have the power and control to not do that. They told me it was gonna happen. Right. And like, so I I asked that because I'm like, as a as a field training officer and someone who has discussed at length a lot of these issues, I think culture and how we speak to young, impressionable men and women who are joining law enforcement. It's really important to also show the positive and like you can, you can 100% have a successful relationship, you can have a great marriage, you can have great great friendships, you can not ever turn to alcohol as an excuse to cope with the things that you see in the job. I never heard that when I was in the academy. I never heard like, hey, I'm Captain So-and-so talking to the class and saying, like, you know what, I've been married for 30 years. Um, me and my wife go out, we have great relationships. Like, I have all kinds of friends outside of law enforcement. I have these other hobbies that I do. Not once did I hear that in the academy. But it's not because they don't exist. Right. Because clearly long relationships do exist. Right. I'm a testament to that. Jeff's a testament to that and his relationship, and so many people that we know in law enforcement are testaments to having really great relationships and great, um, you know, great lives in general. Yeah. But that's not talked about in the academy. It's always watch out for drinking, you're probably gonna drink, you see some crazy shit, you're probably gonna, you're gonna stress out, you're gonna struggle, you're gonna have those issues. So, like you said, it's kind of like a self-fulfilling property.

SPEAKER_02 1:27:44

It's like a pass. Like you get this pass of if this happens, it's okay, because we see it all the time, kind of thing. And I know I know that was allowed, if you will.

SPEAKER_08 1:27:52

Yeah, and I know that was an answer to that question. Yeah, I know that it's a lot of people. I didn't hear a question on there.

SPEAKER_03 1:27:58

Yeah, so I'm curious, like Hearing that from me. Yeah. Like, does that make sense? And maybe just thinking about your own experience with serving first responders. Sure. How does that resonate with you? Can you does there any?

SPEAKER_02 1:28:11

Yeah, I think there is some of that. I mean, but there is, I feel again, I feel like by the time they get to my office, there's some willingness to take ownership. It stings. You could see it. You could see that it doesn't feel good. Like, yeah, I see that I'm kind of an ass in the way that I speak to my spouse. Or I see that I can handle that really differently, or I see that I'm really short-fused. Um and again, I mean, by the time or you stop coming, the people that aren't willing to really do the work, they'll come a little bit and then they'll stop. Because they know, I mean, you know, first or session or two, we're information gathering, I'm building rapport, I'm getting to know you. And then, you know, by session three, we're like doing some heavy lifting to some degree. And I'd say that's when rubber meets the road and it's like I had a graduate school teacher tell me that clients are like avocados, they have to be ripe. Because you try to eat an avocado before it's ripe, you try to eat an avocado after it's ripe, not so tasty. And so some people aren't ripe. And those people aren't ready to look at some of those things. But I do think that um, again, by the time they get to me, it's usually like, all right, I'm ready to look at this. It doesn't feel good and this is not easy, and I am ready to look at this.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:36

Yeah. Well, that's refreshing to hear.

SPEAKER_02 1:29:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:38

Um, yeah, no, I'm glad to hear that guys that do come to you are in that state of I want to take ownership and responsibility for what I can control. Yeah. But I've I've just always been curious because again, I only know my own perspective, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:29:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:29:52

I don't know what other guys go through and like how that's impacted them. I just always thought that in my head. I was like, looking back, because my relationship, if if I was talking to a a group of academy cadets or whatever, like the things that I would say, I feel like are far different than what I was given. And so I just always wondered like, how many guys found themselves or girls found themselves in relationships where they had an easy out because they were like, oh yeah, I expected that. That's what was told to me.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:22

Well, I also think it's probably who you surround yourself with too, right? So if like I have a friend that I'm saying these things to and I'm saying, hey, I'm struggling with this or I'm struggling with that, and they're like, yeah, that's just part of the gig, right? And they're just validating that this is your right of passage. This is just part of being a law enforcement officer, you know, that's going to go very different than if you have a friend that's like, hey, if you really value your relationship and you're screwing it up, you got to do something about it.

SPEAKER_05 1:30:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:30:51

And so I think it's surrounding yourself with people that don't always agree with you or are willing to grow and call you on your shit if you're screwing it up, I think is important. And really, no matter what profession you're doing, but especially being a first responder, because it's very easy to allow this job to really impact who you are as a person and then therefore impact your family life as well. You know, my uncle, who was an officer for his entire career, so it was I think it was 29 years, I did a couples course a couple years ago at one of the local PDs, which it was like a five-week course where we met once a week and we talked about different topics and things like that and specific to law enforcement. But I remember talking to him before I did the class. Um, I talked to him and then my other uncle has passed, but I talked to my aunt, who was his spouse. But you know what I found was interesting, neither of them had spoken to one another about it. So neither one of them had known that I had asked them these questions because they're on the retirement end of things. So I'm just curious, like looking back, like what's your perspective kind of thing. And one of the things that they both said was their values, their faith, and like making sure that their spouse and their marriage was always a priority. And I thought that it was interesting again, because they didn't communicate that, but they both answered, and one from a spouse perspective and one from the law enforcement perspective, and both had and still have on the one end successful marriage.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:29

Wonderful.

SPEAKER_02 1:32:30

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_08 1:32:32

Would you say that that's the um like as a first responder, you go out and you give oftentimes uh the public you're your best version of yourself when you're out there, you're helping people, um, you're around the PED, you're alive, you're energetic, and then you go home and sometimes your family, your wife, or your kids don't get the best version of you. Um what advice do you give to officers um to help them combat the fact that they're giving not only their safety, their energy all to people that aren't gonna be there after they retire. Right. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:33:13

Right. I think it's a great question. Um the best uh thing that I that I saw that question and I was like, you know what, this makes me think of one particular thing. And it'll circle back to first responders, I promise. Um my kids went to a co-op school for preschool, and so you have to volunteer. And when you're around a bunch of preschoolers, you gotta have a lot of patience. And this is a co-op school, so they're like painting their bodies and they're making a mess and they're jumping off stuff, and you're like, oh my gosh, there's like they're multiplying, and I have to keep them all alive and I have to be nice to them and I have to be patient with them. And you're like, ah, and then I found my husband and I would be more irritated on those days towards our own children. And this was years ago, and I remember looking at him going, why do these other children get the best versions of us? At the end of the day, we may never see these children again. And these are the ones that matter, and we get one chance to do their childhood. So why would these now I'm not saying be mean to these kids, right? Like I'm that's not what I'm saying, but give less, if you will. And I feel like that was such a positive shift in perspective for both of us. And so I think the same goes for this job. Now, it doesn't mean don't give a hundred percent, but be cognizant that we don't have to go above and beyond for everything, right? We have to have some energy left in the tank to give it to the people who, when we're on our deathbed, are gonna be standing there because it's not gonna be that call that you did on Tuesday at two o'clock. Right. They're not standing there. And so some of that is some days we can't do that. Sometimes it's just this was the day. It was a day. But that's when you really rely on that self-care and knowing what you need, speaking up about it, being vulnerable, asking for support, whether that's via peer support, friends, your spouse, asking for space, taking care of your needs. So then you have enough left in the tank to where I can come back and give to the people that matter most. Because I think what's really sad is when we realize that later in life. It's because you you can you can redo to some degree, but you can't really rewind, right?

SPEAKER_08 1:35:35

You can make amends, but you you're not rewriting the history of what happened.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:38

Right. It's never too late to do it different. Obviously, I don't want to discourage anyone from that. It's just, you know, we can have eyes wide open right now.

SPEAKER_05 1:35:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:35:47

You could start right now. You don't have to look at things and go, well, you know, there's kind of some of that mentality of like, ah, it's pretty far gone.

SPEAKER_08 1:35:55

Right. I'm gonna retire in 10 years, so I'll work on it then. Yeah. It's like nah.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:00

Yeah, that's the easy thing to do, is like always push things off. Like, oh, I'll get to that tomorrow. Right. I know I should do this, I acknowledge this, but uh too busy right now.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:10

That's what I hear about uh people going to therapy. Yeah, it's like too busy. I probably should. Yes, but do why not?

SPEAKER_03 1:36:18

Yeah, it's like a working out thing, right? Like I I know I need to work out, I know I need to do the everybody knows what they need to do. Right. But it's the the challenge in the discipline is like starting. Yes, starting somewhere, whether it's therapy, whether it's working out, whether it's eating right. Yeah. Like just starting somewhere and committing.

SPEAKER_07 1:36:35

They have to wait till a certain date, like January 1st. Oh, yeah, it's gonna sound good. It's a Monday.

SPEAKER_03 1:36:41

Yeah, uh November. Or usually it's like there's something coming up. So well, Christmas is coming up, so I know we're gonna eat a lot. So how about the first? Sure. You know, there's always something coming up. Like I used to do um like fitness coaching and stuff, and so I guess it was a running joke. Like, there's always something. Oh, it was a family birthday next weekend, so I'll start that diet you gave me after that, but then it's like after the family birthday party. Well, then it's like, oh well, Halloween's coming up, so it's gonna be a lot of candy and then Christmas. Right, like right. It's always like pushing things off, so yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:12

Right, but you hit on a key piece that it's like we can have a great week, right? If we're gonna stick to like the diet, for instance, and the weekend could be where you fuck off a little bit, and that's okay. But doesn't mean we're not aiming for perfection. What I like to remind people is like we get so excited when you get in therapy and you're like, oh my gosh, I learned all these new things. I'm gonna listen to podcasts and read these books, and I got a new journal and that has prompts in it, it's gonna be great. And then it's like, I don't know, a week or two in, you're like, yeah, I can't make it today. No, I haven't been journaling. I don't really listen to podcasts anymore. It's like just chill. Yeah, it's okay, and it's okay to get back on the horse.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:54

It doesn't have to be all or nothing.

SPEAKER_02 1:37:55

Exactly.

SPEAKER_03 1:37:56

That's the problem, is everybody's all or nothing. Exactly. It's like I'm either all in or yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:00

Yeah. Patience is important and key, and reminding ourselves that we can circle back.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:08

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:38:09

And it can be a Tuesday, not a Monday, not a first.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:12

On that note, I'm gonna ask this of both of you, including myself.

SPEAKER_00 1:38:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:38:17

These are just kind of on the fly. Because and I say this because like when I learn the most, and I think for most people, when they learn the most, it's not when you hear all the good things that you should be doing, or it's usually hearing other people's mistakes or what they could be doing better. Like that's where you learn the lessons. You know, like in law enforcement, like I could tell you how to do things properly all day long. You'll probably be like, that dude's a know it all, and just check out. But if I'm like, here's what I fucked up, or here's what I'm struggling with, but here's what I'm doing to improve it, like you'll probably take more away from it. Um so my question to you guys, both of you, and I'll I'll even I'll even begin. What is one thing in your current relationship that you could be doing better? And then what is one piece of advice that you would give to somebody that's been successful for you? And I'll begin. So, how about this?

SPEAKER_08 1:39:13

I'm gonna be thinking about my answer while you're talking.

SPEAKER_03 1:39:15

Yeah. So we got time. We got time. I could I could cut out the pauses for you guys. So right now, one of the things that I acknowledge that I could be doing better in my relationship is complimenting more. My wife's love language, and I know this, so I have no excuses, is she likes words of affirmation. I'm really bad at that. And I like saying this because I guarantee there's other people at home that are also probably bad at certain things. Like, we all have our strengths, right? We all have our weaknesses. For me, my my love language is like acts of service. So, like, I'm always like, but I always work from my own love language, right? So, like, I will do things for people and expect that to be enough. Like, well, I did all these things for you. I like, why don't you love me for that? Why don't you appreciate that? Well, the problem is other people have different things that jive with their own internal processing. Right. And so for me, like my my struggle right now, honestly, and we have talks about it in our relationship, is like I need to compliment more. Like, I need to acknowledge my wife and the things that she does. Be I'm I'm bad at that. And so that's something I'm gonna work on. Okay. One piece of advice that I can give to anybody in relationships out there is laugh. Laugh more, don't lose the humor, um, find things to make light of. Don't take things too seriously. I think it's so easy to act like not act like, but just fall in this trap of like whatever the issue is you're arguing about or stressing you out, to feel like that is like the biggest thing in the world. Like sometimes we need to step out of our own shoes and like get a 30,000-foot view and ask yourself, in the grand scheme of things, is that particular issue really that important? Or is like the way I treat the person in front of me, the one that I say I love, my family, are they more important? And so just yeah, just laugh more. Don't take things too seriously. I think that would be my piece of advice.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:23

I like it. I like it.

SPEAKER_03 1:41:26

What you got?

SPEAKER_08 1:41:28

Um for me, and it actually came up as uh on one of our dates. Uh my wife and I went out and I asked her, okay, how am I doing as a husband? And she's uh she said to me, like, sometimes I feel like I have to walk on eggshells, and the kids have to walk on eggshells around me. And I was like, What do you mean? Of course I knew what you meant, but I was like, What? Me? Um, but like I had a day off. Like I had worked like six days in a row, and I had a day off, and I get up and she's doing something, and I'm like, all right, and she's like, she told me, she was like, You're you're just you're pacing around the house. And then all of a sudden you went into the garage and started cleaning up the garage. And she was like, I know the garage is mostly my mess and the kids' mess, not yours. So then I had to stop what I was doing because I felt bad that you were spending time cleaning up my mess. Um, she's like, Can you just relax and just enjoy? Like, do you have to always find the thing and start trying to work and fix the thing? Um, because then I had to stop what I was doing. I was having a great morning. The boys were having a great morning. And then I had to stop what I was doing because I knew you were cleaning the garage and I knew that was a lot of my mess, is what she was saying. And so um so it's just letting I guess it it it's hard for me because I'm like, okay, like it it didn't bother me at all. It's just like I just like to be efficient, I like to do things and I could be uh efficient with my time. Um, but it's something that I can understand. I'm like, okay, I'll I'll let it be, and I don't always have to do something. And uh one of the things I'm working on is not always have to achieve a thing and just being comfortable in my own space and my own time and not have to have an accomplishment. Um so that is a big thing that I'm working on currently. Um and advice that just goes back to you know how it even started is just when things are good, have an honest conversation. Share what you like what you love about the other person and how they make your life great and how the things that they're doing you appreciate, but also ask them like, okay, well, how am I doing? Because like I said, we all have blind spots, and I think some people when you don't you're not vulnerable and you don't ask, um, it doesn't give the person an opportunity. And maybe there's something they're holding on to, and it's there's resentment building up because they don't feel comfortable, especially with you know, if they're walking on eggshells around me, then maybe they should I should give them an opportunity to um share that. And I take I've taken my my kids out individually to dinner and I ask them how I'm doing as a father, um, and solicit that feedback because it gives them an opportunity to share maybe what your blind spots are and things that they think. Found out that my kids uh are really bothered when I um and I'm late coming home and I don't text or call, they get worried. And I was like, why would you be worried about me? Like I've worked in much dangerous, more dangerous areas and whatnot. And I was like, okay, I work here now. And it's like you shouldn't worry about me. I'm just writing reports or approving reports or whatever. But it bothers them. And so I was like, okay, now it's just like, okay, I will spend that 30 seconds to send a text and be like, okay, I'm just working on reports, I'll be home maybe an hour late. And it alleviates a lot of their stress. And so uh for me, it's just being open and asking the question when things are good, don't just hold on to making the person speak up when things are bad.

SPEAKER_00 1:45:15

I love it. It's important.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:16

I think soliciting a uh feedback, don't assume people around you will always give you feedback.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:23

And not when we're in a rough spot, right? Like proactively like that, where it feels far safer, I imagine, right? Because nobody's upset. We're not talking about an issue, we're just enjoying one another's company. And so I imagine you're far more open. Yeah. Harder conversations or more constructive conversations can happen then. Yeah. Um, I want to be like, oh, I don't have anything that I need to work on, you guys, because I'm a therapist. So what I do.

SPEAKER_03 1:45:52

Bullshit. This is your opportunity to be yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:45:57

I my husband would disagree, I am sure.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:00

What's your husband's name?

SPEAKER_02 1:46:01

Andy.

SPEAKER_03 1:46:02

Okay, Andy, this is for you.

SPEAKER_02 1:46:04

Um I need to let go of wanting something for him more than he wants it for himself. So that is a big one for me. I like to say, I'm like, I am on this fucking really cool island out here because I've grown so much and it's super cool, and you should come. You should come. And he may not be ready. Being a therapist can be a curse and a blessing at times because you um you have to grow. You can only take someone as far as you're willing to take yourself. And so you have to continuously be working on yourself. And so when you do, I like to tell people it's like going to the optometrist, and it's like it's clearer, it's clearer, it's clearer, it's clearer, right? So you see your world so much more clearly. And so you come home and you're like, oh, I see the challenges. Like, we got to do this and we got to work on that, and this is an issue, and this and that. And he is a great sport majority of the time, but sometimes he's like, oh my gosh, like stop working right now. Cool it on the growth, lady. Um, so I think that's the biggest piece I would say is like I can see areas where you can grow and you may not be ready to see that. And it is different when it's your spouse versus a client because I am going to be really cognizant of not pushing you before you're ready. Whereas my spouse affects my life as well. So I'm like, let's do it.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:37

Do you find yourself trying to coach your husband? Oh, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:47:40

Unfortunately. Yes.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:41

We love that. That's true.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:43

We all enjoy the advice of our own spouses.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:46

It's kind of like let me show you all the ways you can improve. Perfect. Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:47:50

That's right.

SPEAKER_08 1:47:51

Thanks, Bab.

SPEAKER_03 1:47:52

I kind of feel like you could have gone deeper on that answer. Like, you think so? Yeah, I feel like that was kind of like I don't know. Digger. I thought Andy might have something different to say that you could work on.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:04

Well, I mean, it's pointing out, it's pointing out all the areas I think he should be working on.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:09

Leave me alone.

SPEAKER_02 1:48:11

He's like, I hear you, and like, come on, like kind of thing. Whereas like sometimes it's an argument, right? Where it's like he is not ready, where I think there is the best of intentions, right? Of like, I'm trying to help. I'm trying to help you, and you may not want my help because you didn't sign up for therapy with me.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:32

Okay, I really hope Andy watches this. Please go to our Instagram or YouTube and comment what Danielle can be doing better. I want I want the reality.

SPEAKER_00 1:48:41

It's not good enough.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:42

Right.

SPEAKER_08 1:48:42

That uh that Bill Bursky is like, my wife is apparently protected by museum glass and perfect in the way.

SPEAKER_07 1:48:49

And I'm just like that building with scaffoldings for 10 years.

SPEAKER_03 1:48:52

Sounds like when you go to an interview and they're like, tell me about your weaknesses and you're like I just care too much about the people around me. I try too hard. I care too much.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:04

I feel like we're not getting the like well, it's just not letting him be, right? Yeah, yeah, he needs to be have room to be himself. And that sometimes is going to be not perfect, and that is totally fine. And I don't need to consistently hold a mirror up to that.

SPEAKER_08 1:49:20

Yeah. Well, I can understand that. It's like I like in coaching or what in training or whatever, it's like you push people, push people, push people, and you're like, keep going. It's like, okay, like now I like it's exhausting. It's like maybe I'm being a maniac because I keep wanting them to achieve all the things that I can see in them. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:49:38

And it's like he may not want that, right? And I have to leave space for that of and that is incredibly hard for me.

SPEAKER_03 1:49:46

Yeah. Well, and the way you coach some people is different than way you should the way you should coach like others, right? Like I ran into that with like, you know, fitness training and all that kind of stuff back in the day. It was like, I'd go home and tell my wife, like, do this, this, and this, and she's like, I don't want you to be my coach. Like. Or it's kind of like when your kids take your kids aren't going to take advice from their parents necessarily. Right. But if they hear it from a friend's parent or someone else that's outside of your home, they might listen more. Totally. Yes. It's like your advice is not cool. Right. And because it's from you. Right. Right. So sometimes advice. It's not that the advice is bad. Right. Probably the things that you're trying to coach your husband with or motivate him or whatever. Yes. It's not bad advice. It's just it's from you.

SPEAKER_02 1:50:26

Well, it's criticism, right? It's criticism. And that doesn't feel good, right? Especially if it feels like I'm under a microscope. Right. And so I think that that is likely how he feels on a pretty regular basis. And someone not doing that in your own home constantly where you feel like you're on reality TV where someone is armchair quarterbacking your whole life. Yeah. Pretty irritating.

SPEAKER_03 1:50:52

Okay. So from your per your experience, what is a piece of advice that has been successful for you in your relationship that maybe could help somebody else?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:03

I think it's holding space and and recognizing that there's a whole other person that sees it differently and that they don't have to see it the same way as you and it is okay. And I think that um, you know, being with someone as long as we have, I mean, 20 years is a long time, and the evolution of trying to figure out how we navigate that together is hard. But the more we can hold space, um, the better it'll be. And that is definitely an area I need to work on.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:34

And when you say hold space, can you dumb that down for like a five-year-old?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:38

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:51:39

What does what does that mean, holding space?

SPEAKER_02 1:51:41

It just means that I hear you out, right? And I have empathy because empathy doesn't mean we agree. Empathy means we are attempting to see your vantage point and recognizing that again, you may not be there yet. And you may not be ready to tackle something that I think would be helpful to tackle. Because I can see something and I can be like, oh, this probably connects to your childhood or this trauma in your life or whatever it may be. And it's like, you know, that's not too cool.

SPEAKER_08 1:52:13

It's gotta be exhausting to be made to it. Yeah. Psychiatrist or law enforcement. It's gotta be just exhausting. Yeah. We're all fucked up.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:21

Yeah. 100%. 100%. Which it I don't know why I keep thinking, I'm just like, I feel like there's something more to you.

unknown 1:52:30

Oh man.

SPEAKER_02 1:52:31

Dig away.

SPEAKER_03 1:52:32

This is my maybe my law enforcement side. I'm like, I'm not getting the full story.

SPEAKER_07 1:52:36

You're meeting me halfway here. Well, wouldn't it feel better to go?

SPEAKER_03 1:52:39

Can I give therapy to the therapist? Yes, of course. No, no, this is really good. This is really good. I think um, again, I just I like to be honest and raw with with people because like the last thing I want with our with our our show and what we do is like for people to feel like we're just preaching from like I don't know, everything else academics or what's in paper, but like what works in real life. And so I just like to share kind of what our own struggles are because I feel like that is where people really will relate. Is okay, I I struggle to compliment people, I struggle to explain to my spouse why I'm doing the things that I'm doing. It's not a bad thing about you, it's just I need to feel like I'm accomplishing something, or like I'm not trying to coach you because I think you're necessarily doing anything wrong. It's just like I see more for you. And I have these expert these experiences that tell me like this would be a better way, so be open to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:33

Right.

SPEAKER_03 1:53:34

Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:53:34

Well, I like to remind him that we're both on we both want the team to win. 100%. We're we just play different positions, and I'm trying to tell you from my vantage point what it looks like, but we got to pass the ball to one another, whatever it may be, because we both want the same team to win. But again, somebody may not be ready to hear that. And again, as a therapist, you continuously do your own work, and so it's easy to see things from a very different vantage point, even yourself. And I mean, he has to listen to all the things as well. Where I come home and I'm like, this happened and then that happened, not work-related, but my own work, obviously, of learning about myself and the own my own work. But he's got to hold space for that. And I think a lot of times he's like, I don't know what to say to you. Yeah, that's fair.

SPEAKER_08 1:54:27

Yeah, anything I say can be diagnosed.

SPEAKER_04 1:54:30

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:54:31

Yeah. What kind of notebook are you keeping on me? You're saying that because of your issues back in, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:38

Okay. Last segment, because I think this conversation has gone really well, and I really appreciate it. Um, I've got a couple rapid fire questions that I want to ask you.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:47

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:47

So the only rule with this is you have to, you can't sit here and think for a long time. Like, you gotta give me 30-second answers. Some of these will be like an instant answer.

SPEAKER_00 1:54:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:54:55

You can justify it, but you have to answer it first. So don't do the whole like, I'm gonna justify it first. Okay. Okay. Who lies more? Men or women?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:08

Uh, men.

unknown 1:55:09

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:09

And why do you say that?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:11

Uh I think it's just too uncomfortable to be vulnerable. So you just like and I think women tend to exaggerate a little bit. I don't know that we want to we want to say it's lying, but women tend to be like, it was this big, right? And I was like, well, it was this big actually.

SPEAKER_08 1:55:27

Whoa, what are you guys talking about? Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:32

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:33

Men, it's hard to face these things. So yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:55:36

Okay. Next one. One word answer first. Okay. Then you can explain. Okay. Phone snooping. Is it ever justified or never justified?

SPEAKER_02 1:55:48

Uh, I I get it sometimes. I think it's a sometimes. I think it's a but if you're not a never.

SPEAKER_04 1:55:58

Not a never, yes.

SPEAKER_02 1:55:59

I have a hard time with absolutes, right? Of always or never kind of thing. I think sometimes it makes sense. Um the hard part is like your relationship's probably in a really rough spot if you feel like you have to do that.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:12

So you should be questioning the fact that you even feel the need to do that. Correct. There's already a problem. Correct. The engine light is on.

SPEAKER_02 1:56:19

Well, because you feel like that person's not being honest or transparent from the beginning, right? And if you feel the need to do that, then there's already a massive issue there.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:28

Okay. Which starts more fights? Money, sex or chores?

SPEAKER_02 1:56:37

Oof, that's a good one. Um, I'm gonna say tie between money and sex.

SPEAKER_03 1:56:42

Okay. Anything you'd like to add?

SPEAKER_02 1:56:43

Well, uh, we men and women tend to see it very differently on how money is spent as well as how often or that what sex should look like, if you will. And a lot of times we need women to feel emotionally safe in order to have sex. Men want sex to feel emotionally connected. So it's this rough tumble of how do we figure that out? Because a lot of times, you know, we need both.

unknown 1:57:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:14

Is there any universal advice you can give to that one, or is it very individual?

SPEAKER_02 1:57:18

I think intimacy starts beyond the bedroom. So if we can be intimate with one another again, with the things we're talking about today of checking in, date nights, connecting, asking deeper questions. If someone feels seen, that typically leads more towards I am willing to be intimate with you.

unknown 1:57:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:41

What's the most overrated relationship advice that you've heard?

SPEAKER_02 1:57:46

Overrated. Communication is key. Like that communication is everything.

SPEAKER_03 1:57:54

That's not.

SPEAKER_02 1:57:54

But that's overrated or I I mean it's not at the end of the day, like your communication is going to be affected by how connected you are. To me, I'd far rather you focus on your connection with one another than your communication.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:09

What's the difference?

SPEAKER_02 1:58:10

Well, I think if you feel connected to someone, you're going to communicate really differently.

SPEAKER_03 1:58:16

But don't you need to communicate to be connected?

SPEAKER_02 1:58:20

Not always. Like, as far as um there is certain research. I want to say it's Gottman, but I could be wrong. Don't quote me on that. But it's like once you're with someone for a long time, a lot of your communication is nonverbal, like 60 to 80 percent.

SPEAKER_04 1:58:34

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:35

So, like just coming up to someone who's cooking and rubbing their shoulders, right? Or holding their hand or grabbing their hand when you're out in public, or if you're driving in the car together, or just looking at them and smiling, whatever it may be. Like there's certain things you can do. Are you like, this is so stupid?

SPEAKER_07 1:58:52

No, I'm just thinking about him throwing the ball at the end.

SPEAKER_02 1:58:56

That's my love communication. Nonverbal communication. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:59:06

I'm just a kid that never grew up, you know.

SPEAKER_02 1:59:09

But that's nonverbal communication, right? Like I'm trying to bid for your attention. I want to connect with you. So I think that I mean, yes, you need communication, right? You absolutely need communication and you need to respect one another. Um, but if you don't have those things, then communication's gonna be there's different styles of communication, like you just stated. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 1:59:31

Okay. Yeah. Can men and women just be friends?

SPEAKER_02 1:59:37

Yes. I do think they can be friends. As far as just friendships, you mean? Right? Is that what you're asking?

SPEAKER_03 1:59:46

Yeah. Yeah. But like there's controversy in that question, right? Sure. Like a lot of times there is a belief that men and women who are in close friendships, more than likely it's trying to lead to something.

unknown 2:00:01

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:02

Not always, but that that is probably one angle, right? If you have a different angle, let me know. But like I think that's a common one.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:08

Um is like this is like a soft startup to a relationship who's banging like friends.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:14

If if you if Andy had a friend, sorry, Andy, if you have a f if he had a friend that was a woman, yeah, and he was like, hey, like he's spending a little bit of time hanging out. Yeah. Could they just be friends? Like, what are you and I don't mean to be really personal? I'm just trying to pin an example. Yeah, that's okay. It's a question.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:30

We can dig because you didn't like my answer earlier, so we can dig at it. You can use me for the example.

SPEAKER_03 2:00:36

You can use other examples or other experiences you have.

SPEAKER_02 2:00:39

Like, I think it depends on like so. If we were to sit with me personally and Andy has a friend that's a woman, I would want to understand the relationship dynamics. Where we start getting into, or if we stick with this example, where I would start to have an issue with it if it starts to become really emotionally connected. And what I mean by that is it starts to take away from our emotional connection. And because there are different forms of affairs, right? And um, there is an emotional affair. And for women, that tends to be far more bothersome than a physical affair. Whereas men tend to be far more bothered by the physical affair than an emotional one. But in reality, like I've seen people in my career where they have multiple partners or they have an open relationship or an open marriage, and it can work. I've seen it work. It just really strong boundaries and rules around it are what makes the difference. But again, to circle back to the question, if I knew the dynamics and I were aware of what that was looking like and it wasn't impacting my marriage, I think it can work. I also think, like, if you're married, having a relationship with that other person would be important too. So, like, if we're sticking with the example of Andy has a friend that's a woman, what's your connection with me?

SPEAKER_04 2:02:05

Right.

SPEAKER_02 2:02:06

If you want nothing to do with me, then yeah, I'm gonna be a little more bothered by that because why do you want nothing to do with me?

SPEAKER_03 2:02:12

I agree with that. Yeah, that's kind of what I was thinking too. I'm like, I think it would be weird if the spouse that has this other part other opposite gender friend is like being evasive and like you guys don't also have a relationship.

SPEAKER_00 2:02:25

Right.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:25

Right? Like you guys don't all three hang out together, at least sometimes. Right. Right? It'd be weirder if it was like, I don't even know this girl and he's friends with her, right? Never met her in person. Right. That kind of thing. Yes. What are your thoughts, Jeff?

SPEAKER_08 2:02:39

Anything bad. I just feel bad that Andy's name gets done so much. Sorry, Andy. That wasn't this wasn't understanding.

SPEAKER_03 2:02:46

He's not here to defend himself. But I mean, I feel like we're battling her for Andy a little bit. Only because like he's the underdog, he's not here to defend himself, so we have to. Sure. He's a trooper, for sure. Okay. Uh, I think this is the last one. What is one thing that happy couples do that unhappy couples don't?

SPEAKER_02 2:03:14

Make each other a priority. And make it the priority, I would say, preferably. Like if that person is I almost see it as like over time we forget that you get to hang out every day with your best friend and you get to live with them. Like, think about when you were a little kid and you got to have a slumber party with your best friend. You're like, oh yeah, this is the greatest ever. But like that's how we're supposed to feel about our spouse. And if we forget that we get to like do life every day and have a slumber party every day with your best friend, then yeah, I can start to again. There goes the rest and the slow erosion at the relationship.

SPEAKER_03 2:03:52

That's good. I like that. All right. Well, Danielle, this has been an awesome conversation. Really appreciate it. Our pleasure. Um because you are you taking current clients?

SPEAKER_02 2:04:05

Do you are you Yeah, it's there's limited space, but yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:09

Okay, where can people find you?

SPEAKER_02 2:04:11

Um, my website would probably be best. So it's just firstname last name.com. So DanielleRealli.com. R-I-E-L-E.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:19

Got it. Any professional business on social media?

SPEAKER_02 2:04:22

Um, it's UFing matter actually.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:24

UF Matter? UF and Matter. Yes. I like it.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:27

UFing matter like F-I-N-G, yeah. So the Y-O-U and then F-I-N-G and then Matter, yeah. Okay, is it on Instagram and Facebook?

SPEAKER_03 2:04:35

What is that?

SPEAKER_02 2:04:36

Instagram and Facebook, I believe. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:39

That's right.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:40

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:42

I like it.

SPEAKER_02 2:04:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 2:04:43

All right. Well, that is another episode of Broken Perspective Podcast. Thank you guys as always for sticking around, and uh, we'll catch you on the next one. See ya.