Let’s Talk Permits: The People Behind the Process

Join us for episode four of The Economic Current, where host Tiana Dunbar sits down with Kell Rowen, Mason County’s Community Development Director, for a conversation about the inner workings of the Community Development Department. Kell shares her journey into planning, what her role looks like today, and how the department has evolved over the years. The discussion offers a behind the scenes look at how the team operates, how processes have improved, and what the future may hold as new tools and technologies begin to shape the work. #MasonCountyStrong

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:03

What's going on, Mason County? My name is Tiana Dunbar, and you are tuning in to the Economic Current, your economic development podcast of Mason County. Today I am really excited to sit down with Kel Rowan, who is the community development director for Mason County. Uh especially as we start to move into construction season, the weather is getting warmer, the season's getting drier, and this is the perfect time to start building. So really thankful to have you on here today, Kel. Thank you for joining me. How are you today?

SPEAKER_01 0:33

I'm great, and thanks for having me. This is very exciting.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

I know. Something new, something great. Well, I just wanted to get started by getting to know you a little bit better. I know that we are in a director position, but we don't always start out that way. So I was born the director. Okay. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 0:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 0:52

Well, walk me through it. So what's kind of like your career path up until this point? Are were you always in Mason County? How did we get to Mason County?

SPEAKER_01 1:00

I do have a degree in I have a bachelor's in urban and regional planning. So I did start from the plan land use planning background. And my first planning job was in eastern Washington. But I did come to Mason County in 2005. So it was one of my early career moves. And as soon as I got here, completely fell in love with it. I grew up in Edmonds, Washington, so not too far away. And I did come to Mason Lake as a 12-year-old sixth grader with uh friends of my dad's had had a cabin on Mason Lake. So I remember coming here then. Um but as soon as I started working here, I thought this is my place. Even though I went to school to become an urban planner, so city, I completely fell in love with Mason County. As a kid, I I loved the woods and I played alone in the woods looking for salamanders and frogs. And I just felt like when I got here, I thought, oh, this is like my backyard from the 70s that is no longer available on the I-5 corridor. So I I really love it here. Um I did stay until the end of 09, and then I had an opportunity to go to the Port of Tacoma, and that was a really fun job. It gave me a perspective, even though the port is a public agency, it gave me the perspective from developers and commercial side because the port owns property. We leased out to commercial industrial applicants. We worked with them in through getting permits through the city of Tacoma. And so I really got a different perspective than what I was used to as a land use planner on the public side or completely public side. After the Port of Tacoma, I did a short stint with a local or one of the local consulting companies. And then there was an opportunity to come back here in 2016. So I have now been back for 10 years, as of April 1st. And I came back as a permit planner, but then became the planning manager in 2018. And then there was an opportunity once Dave Wyndham and I were working together. He was our the director of both public health and community development. I was the planning manager. But after COVID and uh just how public health grew, there was an opportunity for him to just completely take over on public health side. And then I stepped up and and became the community development director.

SPEAKER_00 3:44

So going into college to get your degree in urban planning, what was the inspiration behind that? Did you just like how cities were built or well?

SPEAKER_01 4:05

And so I was on a career path to become an engineer, and I really wanted to work in wastewater treatment facilities. I wanted to design and operate wastewater treatment. I was into water quality, you know, urban, a lot of humans living together. We need to figure out how to deal with our waste. And water is a very precious resource, I think the most precious on the planet. And so I was very interested in that. But when I was at Lazoo, heading towards that world, I then became familiar with the urban and regional planning program at Eastern Washington University. And I transferred and then I became really involved in getting a land use degree. And uh so yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:56

So were you interested in like the coursework? Did was it something that just came naturally to you? Or what like I, you know, personally I was I was drawn to the pictures and marketing and things like that. The sparkliness of things.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

I I think, you know, I grew up in the suburbs of Edmonds. So I I we had woods in behind our subdivision. So we lived in, you know, relatively not super dense, but you know, relative dense subdivision housing, but woods in the back. So I would, as a kid, I went and I played in the woods, followed streams down to Puget Sound, waterfront. And as development kept occurring and more housing going in, I saw how it's changed the perennial streams to now the streams are only running during the winter. I just saw how human-made development changed the landscape. And I became really interested in A, we are humans on the planet. We are going to impact the planet. We're not going to stop that fact. And I just thought it was really interesting that humans for probably since the beginning of time, there's a handful of humans that think about how are we going to grow and where are we going to put these people? And how are we going to deal with solid waste and sanitary waste and housing and commercial ventures and all that good stuff? And so I thought, wow, that's it's just, I hadn't, like you said, I had never thought about it. But once it presented itself to me, I thought, oh, that's really cool. I could see myself doing that. Such a natural fit.

SPEAKER_00 6:37

Yeah. Totally. Okay. Can you explain a little bit about what your day-to-day looks like?

SPEAKER_01 6:44

What is it that Cal does? That is the mystery of the day. Well, as a permit planner, you know, we just in Mason County, the majority of our permits are single-family residential. But we have a lot of commercial and sometimes smaller industrial stuff. But as the community development director, it's really about managing the people who are then doing the work. And so at the beginning, it it did take me some time. I have I have really great staff. And I give them the credit in helping me step back from that day-to-day work and putting myself into work, and here's how we're going to do this and that. To no, no, no, no. All the people who work at the community development department know what they're doing. And it's my role to make sure that they do know what they're doing. They continue to adapt to all the different changes that come from up from the state level to uh maybe the building department has an issue and they need to change some processes, or the planning department, or even the environmental health department, which is under public health, but we work together with them. So kind of coordinating cats, really. And as a director, as soon as I took that job, I realized that my number one goal for the department was taking care of the staff that work there. Because, you know, in local government, we're very limited on resources, meaning money, but resources also physical things, technology, humans, whatever. Yeah, human resources, dollar resources. And so because we have a scrappy team, I knew that the happier people are coming to work and doing their job, the better customer service we can give and help people through that permitting process, which can at times be complicated. My number one is to the staff, then it's to the customers that we serve, and then to our elected officials and folks in the community. My day-to-day changes every day. Sometimes there's quiet times now, but when I first took over, it was chaos. It was a lot of phone calls, a lot of angry people, a lot of putting out fires, fixing things. But we just managed and I really learned how to look to certain staff and say, I need your help and I need you to do this, and I need you to help me with that. And over time, it's really come together where it doesn't feel like chaos anymore. And there are things that always flare up that I need to deal with, but I can do it at a much calmer level now. And uh and really it's it's it's gotten to be where it's like it's a really enjoyable place to work. And uh I hope that feels that same way. Um, but I d I do try to make it uh a great department to work for because you know it's it most of us live in the community and we're serving our community. And I think that working at your job, it's really important for your well-being to enjoy doing what you're doing.

SPEAKER_00 10:10

I've never had to put in a permit before, so I don't really know what the process would be like. So, like, say I want to, I don't know, build a new house, because you say majority of the permits are for single family residents or things like that. So I put in a permit with you guys, and then I work with one of the permitting people who approves that, and then I get to build. Like, how's that process? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

What's funny is my husband and I bought property, I think 2017, and then we submitted our own building permit. And I remember when we got the permit fee, and I was like, what? It cost how much? I had no idea. Even though I'd worked there for so many years, I'd never looked at fees before. And comparably, our fees are quite a bit lower than the surrounding counties, and we don't have impact fees. But anyway, I did go through the permitting process myself, and so that is different than the inside. Uh, so I have a little bit of insight to that. But we do require an appointment if you're going to submit a building permit application. We also have a lot of our building permit applications are available to apply online, so you could do that through our public portal. But if you come in with an appointment, you meet with one of our permit techs, one of our permit specialists, and they will go through the process with you, look at all of your materials, make sure you have everything that you need to submit. There's a site plan, and typically you have drawings from either an architect or an engineer. Sometimes they're hand-drawn. It kind of depends on the size of the house and and what you're what you're doing on whether or not engineering is required or not. And they'll go through, make sure that you just have everything that's required for submittal, and you would they will collect uh portion of the fees up front, which is required for the review from both planning department, building department, and our environmental health department. And then it gets uploaded into our permit tracking system, so everything is electronic. And for folks who are listening who are going to be submitting permits, you know, we love getting the electronic files either on a thumb drive or have the person that's worked on your plans email them to us. And so those get digitally uploaded into our permit system, and then there's a workflow. So the folks who are reviewing the permits, they go into the system each day and they're looking at their to-do list and reviewing it. And so it all gets done concurrently. So planning, building, environmental health, whoever else needs to see it, they could all look at it at the same time or, you know, whatever. We're not like efficient. Yeah, it's way more efficient than okay, first building, and then it goes to planning, and then this. It's all done concurrently. Our environmental health and planning departments, they coordinate with each other so that they are approving one single site plan. Uh, that's an improvement that we've had over the years that was not the case years ago. And sometimes there'd be conflicts with that. And so we are trying to do more cross-coordination so that it helps the developer, the owner, builder in the long run, so that there aren't uh conflicts that arise. Um, and then once all the reviews are done, it gets sent back to the permit text, and then the permit text let you know that it's available ready to be picked up, and then you pay the remainder of the fees, which will cover the cost of the inspections from our building department. And so then you get to start building and get your inspections, and at the end you'll get a final occupancy permit.

SPEAKER_00 14:00

When your team is reviewing these permit applications and what have you, you have, I'm assuming, federal laws, state laws, and then local laws. But how on the federal level or the state level, how does that affect how decisions are made, I guess, at the local level? So um like when it comes to permitting planning and development, how does that come into play? Great question.

SPEAKER_01 14:28

Most there are some federal things that come in, especially with s shorelines. Okay. But for the most part, and you know, federally there is the International Building Code and the International Residential Code. But then our state of Washington is where we get all of our authority. So the state will give both the building and planning departments authority and mandates on kind of minimum standards to uh for development. Okay. So on the building side, the state does adopt the IRC and the IBC, but then there are state-specific codes related to building, like the Energy Code and some other things. And then same with on the planning side. There are some federal laws that come down to clean water and different things about shoreline, but essentially the state on the planning side is telling us that we need to protect and regulate different critical areas. And so when you are developing, we're the planners are looking for are there critical areas on or near the development site, steep slopes, wetlands, streams, shorelines, et cetera. And they will look at, you know, the minimum standards on setbacks or different types of requirements for development. The state does require that we adopt our own local codes. Oh. So like under the Shoreline Management Act, under this that's a state law. Okay. We adopt the Shoreline Management or Shoreline Master Program that's supposed to be in line with the Shoreline Management Act. But it can be locally drafted. So it's unique to Mason County, but we do have to meet the minimum standards that the state sets. And so we do have, and then same with critical areas. So there's shorelines and critical areas on the planning side. And like I said, under the building with the IRC and the IBC, then there's also the local codes that we adopt under our own Title 14, which manages specific things about building and fire code. I don't want to forget we do have the fire marshal is under our department. And so building and fire marshal kind of go hand in hand when it comes to the codes.

SPEAKER_00 16:54

With that shoreline management piece, I know that one of our major industries here in Mason County is aquaculture. So I'm wondering, do you work with that industry when you're setting these plans? You know, because I'm sure they want clean water. And as we we all want clean water, right?

SPEAKER_01 17:12

Yeah, no, we do. And we and yes, so under our Shoreline Master Program, we do have an aquaculture chapter. Nice. And so we do require uh permitting. There is permit requirements for the aquaculture industry. Um and it could be anything from a statement of exemption, which is we're still reviewing the project, but perhaps it's exempt from shoreline master program permit requirements. But we're reviewing it and confirming, so like say oyster or oyster clam cultivation on a beach may be exempt from needing permits. Whereas gooey duck aquaculture, if it's a new gooey duck bed, that will require a conditional use permit under the Shoreline Master Program. So the aquaculture is definitely something that our department interacts with, the aquaculture community. And we do have one designated permit planner that any aquaculture project that comes in, then we just have one person reviewing that because it's a little, you know, it's unique to the other stuff. And so we have one designated person and so they're more of kind of an expertise in the aquaculture permits.

SPEAKER_00 18:30

I'm curious, like to what extent does Mason County have like local control over permitting and the development process? Are there opportunities or limitations or flexibility within those regulations? And you said that there's kind of like these state level rules and regulations that we need to follow, but for the most part, we get to determine like what our rules are.

SPEAKER_01 18:50

Yeah. The state does set for the most part, not always, but I the state will set um, say they have new legislation and they'll about let's pick streams. Uh we're going to protect streams under the critical areas ordinance under growth management. And streams, you have to protect them. And I don't even know what the state would say as a minimum, because it's this is not a good example, because it's based on best available science. They do give us flexibility in the county on what kind of a buffer or uh how we manage the how we manage that stream, whether it's through buffer, a riparian management zone, or some other means, but we have to show that we are protecting the stream using the best available science typically put out by the state agencies. At this point in time, the Department of Fish and Wildlife has set some new guidance that we're using, but we can look for our own local uh kind of I know it's like, how do I explain this? Um how are we going to protect that stream in a way that makes sense for us, including the staff that we have and the and the technical expertise that we have? So Mason County in the planning department is is pretty small, and we do not have the staff or resources to have a habitat biologist on staff, for example. I don't know if Thurston County does, I think that they do, but definitely Pierce County has, you know, a group of habitat biologists that work within the planning department. We don't have that. And so our regulations need to reflect that. Our planners need to have the ability to protect the resources, but still understand what, you know, it needs to be logical. So if we set a standard buffer, say 100 feet from a stream, that's easier to implement than saying we're gonna manage the riparian zone by the site potential tree height over 200 years and under this soil condition, and you know, we don't have anybody go out have the ability to go out and check that. Right. And so that's not realistic for us.

SPEAKER_00 21:20

We don't want to create a backlog of things that you then have to go and like make sure that we're following these. Right. We want to make it to where it's like actually achievable. Exactly. Right.

SPEAKER_01 21:30

Yes. So the state does recognize that each jurisdiction has a different level of um staffing and resources and abilities to implement things and will give us flexibility. As long as we're following that and we can we can uh show how we are still protecting these streams within reason.

SPEAKER_00 21:54

How big is is your team?

SPEAKER_01 21:58

Uh and what is your team? Okay, our team, the community development department, is made up of the building department, planning department, our permit assistance center. Within the building department, there is the fire marshal, uh, and then we have clerical staff and myself uh and a finance person. I think there are twenty-one or twenty-two of us right now in our permit center. If you walked into our permit center, you'll see that we have three full-time permit technicians, permit specialists that will assist you with, you know, turning in those permits, asking asking questions prior to you getting to the turning in of the permit. We have clerical staff that that is there to greet folks and answer basic questions, do set up the inspections for the building inspectors. And then in our planning department, we have one person that's dedicated to doing all of the subdivisions, boundary line adjustments, anything that has to do with moving lines around, property lines, so plats, short plats. Then there are three permit planners that do all of the just your standard permitting that comes in for all of Mason County. For all of Mason County. Wow. They uh split the county up into three different geographical areas. But within that, then there's one of those permit planners does the aquaculture. So regardless of where it comes in from the county, they'll take the aquaculture permits. Another person takes all of the commercial permits. So they have their area plus all the commercial permits that come in. And then the third planner that has an area of the county, they'll take in all the shoreline permits minus the aquaculture. And then on the, oh, and then we have a code enforcement person that's dedicated just to planning issues. Uh on the building side, we have one code enforcement person that is dedicated to the uh building department, or you know, the building codes. And they work closely with the planner and the environmental health code enforcement. So the the three departments work really closely together. Often there are overlapping issues, but not always. We do have one building inspector who's dedicated to plans examining in the office. So our building inspectors are both inspectors and plans examiners. So they're examining your, you know, they're reviewing the building plans themselves, but then they'll also go out into the field. And so we do have, let's see, there's four or five, five inspectors that also do plans examining and then fire marshal. And then I have a building official. And he has been with us for about 10 years as well, maybe almost 11. And Josh Luck is has been the building official for a couple of years now. I don't even know, but he's excellent. And he started out as a plans examiner, building inspector, and is now our building official and has been doing an excellent job in really getting that side of the house very efficient on doing the plan review and the inspection. So making sure both those jobs are getting done and one's not holding up the other. And so that's been really nice to see. And then our finance person. So can't do anything without finance. No, you cannot.

SPEAKER_00 25:31

No. The most important role. Now, with that, has this team always been this size or has it grown over the years with the more development happening in Mason County?

SPEAKER_01 25:42

Yeah, let's see. Back when I left in 2009, we had, of course, we had started declining in size because of the crash in 2008. Uh Mason County actually started seeing a real slowdown in 2007. And then we had the, you know, national geo uh geographic national geographic.

unknown 26:07

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 26:08

The national, the the crash, the big crash. You know, I left in 09. I went to the port of Tacoma, but folks, there were layoffs, and at that point in time, the 2007 era, the community development department had 42 staff. Rat right around 40-something. I want to say 42, but okay. They had we had 40-something staff. By 2012-ish, I'm kind of yeah, somewhere around there. It was down to the teens. And so when I came back in 2016, I think we started building up then. So you know, I don't recall the at one point in time we did put the numbers together for the commissioners to see like how where we've historically have gone. So at 22, I think 24 was the max that I've had under me. And like I said, we are down to about, I think, 21 or 22. It started slowing down last year, we noticed. In 25, we started slowing down. And so we've had a permit tech position, a building inspector position, and a planning inspect planning position that with folks leaving, that those were left open, and I chose not to fill them last year. I'm continuing not to fill those this year just because of our permit volumes. Um but as, you know, if the economy picks back up or permitting starts picking back up, we we have those positions to fill as as needed. But right now, we're right, you know, we're not needing to do that.

SPEAKER_00 27:47

I've definitely noticed that too. Are there any tools that local governments can use to attract new development? Or are there any types of incentives or strategies to attract more permits being submitted?

SPEAKER_01 27:59

Well, luckily for us, we have the Economic Development Council, but we do not have an economic arm of our, you know, within Mason County. Some jurisdictions have, for example, the city of Shelton, it is the economic development and community development director. Um so they, you know, they plug in economic development into uh that position. We do not have that at Mason County. However, we do, and and uh my building official, so Josh Luck and I, the building official and I, are on the same page in that we you know, we see our role as assisting developers through the permit process, both on the building and the planning sides. And we understand that there are situations where folks want to do something that they just can't do. An easy example of that is subdividing property out in the rural area, where it's like you bought five acres and now you want to subdivide it into five one-acre pieces. We we can't do that. And and that's not and that's where the state kind of draws the line, where we don't have the flexibility to do that. Someone would need to go to Olympia and change legislation to allow that kind of density in the rural area. So we we are um you know, we push density to the urban growth area, so Shelton Urban Growth Area, Allen, and Belfair. But we we are very supportive of development. We want to work in partnership with not only the city, the port, the Economic Development Council, but be available to assist folks. We've worked really hard on getting our permit process. More standardized? Yes. So that we are more efficient. Gotcha. So there was a point in time that if you were to come in, submit a permit, it may take you more than six months to get back. Oh. Yeah. Right. Which may not be surprising for if you go to the city of Seattle or maybe even Thurston County. But here, you know, it was a little bit shocking. And so Josh and I have worked really hard, well, the whole entire team, but you know, our focus was to really work on our efficiencies and processes so that we are reviewing permits as efficiently as possible, which can help with development as far as predictability, timelines, timelines, and try to be as consistent as possible for folks so that they know what to expect. And that's how we support economic development. Try to let staff, you know, staff who are reviewing is like, we're not doing this to try to prevent development. We're reviewing in order to assist development. And when development is proposed that isn't going to work in that situation, let's be upfront about what that is. Don't waste your money and run into a roadblock leader. Yes. Or, you know, are there alternatives? And if there's not, sometimes there's just not. Being upfront with that and why?

SPEAKER_00 31:17

Instead of just helping them understand. Yeah. Not just no. Exactly. I appreciate that. One thing I like to nerd out about this is my this is the nerdy plug here. AI. And AI pops up everywhere. It's going to affect every industry. I don't know if you see it affecting your industry, but looking ahead, where do you see emerging technologies like AI influencing that permitting or construction process or what have you?

SPEAKER_01 31:47

I also love AI, nerding out on AI. Yes. We talk about AI in the office, and I know there are different folks that are using AI to assist with, for example, you know that there is an RCW, so the revised code of Washington, the state code, and you know, I know that there's a section in 5817, which is the subdivision code. I know it says something about XYZ, but where in that? And you can't, you know, it's hard to Google it, but you could just go into Chat GPT and ask, and then it will point you right there. So there's efficiencies that way instead of where I used to spend a lot of time searching, you know, that so that's gotten better. One of our building inspectors has been using it for plan review, and him and I are actually going to meet next week so I could see what he's, you know, how that's being helpful there. So I think it helps with the building code and how to apply it. But since I've never done that type of work, I'm not exactly sure how that works, but it's made his work more efficient. You know, we're all aware that you can never trust it 100%. It's just more of a tool. So use it as a tool and always confirm what it's telling you. Um, but it has been a time saver for especially converting maybe an email that I might want to write when I'm angry so I could say it in a in a way and then can you just make this professional? And sometimes that is helpful rather than my other rule, which is wait 24 hours and calm down before I respond or send off. Is and this is something that I'm I've been thinking about working with our IT department on, is can we make our own model where we are feeding it our own codes, forms, applications, that kind of thing. And so the point of thinking about that now is so that as staff, we're all looking at our forms, our website, and getting everything up to date and getting rid of old things, things that are no longer relevant, because of course, if you're gonna feed your AI or say your chatbot or your agent stuff and you feed it junk, it's gonna give you junk. And so I want to assume that we're gonna have an AI agent help customers. Um but before we start playing around with that, we really need to get our systems cleaned up as much as possible. Our codes are really good now. Um you know, we use Municode and that you can trust, but uh some of our forms might be outdated and we've tried to keep up on that, but you know, things happen and we'll still find old forms that always.

SPEAKER_00 34:56

Always. So one last question before we close out for the day. Do you have any feel-good stories about a situation that's come through the permitting department that you're like, yes, this is just like a beautiful story that everybody needs to know about?

SPEAKER_01 35:11

Oh, geez. You should have asked me this in advance. Because there's always good, feel-good stories, but I can't think of them off of the I hear you.

SPEAKER_00 35:20

I hear ya. Or the maybe a project that happened that was like it took it was just so hard to push through, but you guys figured it out.

SPEAKER_01 35:30

You know what? I know that there are, if you asked our permit, our permit specialists, so our permit coordinator, she's just celebrated 35 years at the county. I know she could tell you great stories, and she has told me that people will come in and want their picture taken with her or with their building permit, because they're so excited. And and you know, a lot of people who it, you know, they may build a house once in their whole life, you know, as opposed to going out and buying a house. But, you know, where you are buying your property and then you build your house. Um, it's pretty exciting. I mean, I did it myself, so it is. It's a very, very exciting thing. And so I know our permit specialists deal a lot with not only the good stuff, but some of the bad stuff. But they have stories that sound pretty awesome that I can't relay to you. That's okay.

SPEAKER_00 36:22

Maybe I'll have to hunt them down and book my coffee date with them and chat with them. Yeah. Right on. Well, thank you so much for chatting with us today. I mean, we're moving into construction season. I know it's about to be your busy season. I'm sure it's already started. I mean, the weather's great today. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 36:40

I heard that our office was busy on, I think it was Monday. I was like, oh yeah, had a nice sunny weekend, and then everybody thought of their projects and came in on Monday.

SPEAKER_00 36:50

Yeah, right on. Well, thank you again for being here today and letting me pick your brain on this. And we will catch you back here again next month. All right. Take care.