BloomTalk
BloomTalk
Why Children Behave The Way They Do: Reading The Signals Adults Keep Missing
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Why do children behave the way they do?
What adults often call "bad behaviour" may actually be something deeper — a signal, a coping mechanism, a search for belonging, or an emotional need a child doesn't yet have the words to express.
In this episode of BloomTalk, Natalia sits down with Fawzia — a mom of two, leader in inclusive education, and author of "The Happy Heart, Happy Mind Handbook" — to explore what children are really trying to tell the adults around them, and why so many of those signals get missed.
Because behind every behaviour is something easy to overlook:
A child trying to be understood.
This conversation is for parents, educators, and anyone raising or working with children, asking:
What is my child actually trying to tell me?
Why do kids behave so differently at home than at school?
How are screens, social media, and apps like Roblox shaping what children feel?
What do I do when my child slams the door — or goes quiet?
How can parents and schools partner instead of pull against each other?
And how much of how I parent comes from how I was parented?
Resources Mentioned
Fawzia's book, "The Happy Heart, Happy Mind Handbook"
https://www.totojunction.com/books/the-happy-heart-happy-mind-handbook-mindfulness-for-children/
Fawzia's work, Lead Learn Educate
https://www.leadlearneducate.com
The Brain Dump worksheet (download from Fawzia's site)
https://www.leadlearneducate.com
Chapters
00:00 Cold Open
01:36 Meeting Fawzia
02:23 What Pulled Her Into This Work
03:05 When "One Size Fits All" Stopped Working
04:48 Children as Icebergs
05:38 "Did Titanic Underestimate the Iceberg?"
06:38 Tech and the Rewriting of Childhood
07:48 From the Magazine Lady to the Internet's Faces
08:16 What Parents Get Wrong About Screens
09:30 When the Phone Becomes a Babysitter
10:51 The Phone Box at Dinner
11:43 The Death of Conversation
13:41 When Friendship Lives Inside an App
14:09 The Pandemic Anxiety That Hasn't Gone Away
16:06 Why Devices After 8PM Are Dangerous
16:27 Helicopter Parenting vs Honest Checking In
18:23 "I'll Buy My Own Phone"
20:35 Look Out for the Quiet Kids
20:57 Meta & YouTube on Trial
22:24 The Hidden Cost of the Like Button
23:43 Roblox, Catfishing, and Belonging
25:42 When the App Listens Better Than You
27:36 Australia Just Raised the Age
29:02 How to Read the Signals Children Send
30:04 Listening for What Is NOT Being Said
30:41 The Slammed Door: Address the Cause
32:28 When You Don't Have the Patience to Ask Why
33:21 Why Parents Must Work on Themselves First
35:05 The Problem With "Naughty"
36:14 Why Children Need Routines More Than Rules
38:35 The Brain Dump: A Family Tool That Works
40:25 When to Hold the Line
41:50 Moving Countries: The Grief Kids Carry
44:23 Old Wounds at a New School
45:58 Why School and Home Must Partner
47:37 When a Parent Says "Bullying"
50:09 When the Parent-School Relationship Breaks
52:17 Teachers as Customer Service
54:38 Walking Into the Flame
57:02 Misbehaving — or Pushing the Boundary?
1:01:01 The Pressure to Look Like a Perfect Parent
1:02:03 Why Kids Behave Differently at Home
1:03:49 "Talk to Joe About Brushing His Teeth"
1:04:32 When Parents Enable the Behaviour
1:09:22 Throwing a Tablet at a Tantrum
1:10:55 Writing Right-to-Left: A Lesson in Unlearning
1:13:11 Restorative Practices: Discipline Without Damage
1:15:50 The Happy Heart, Happy Mind Handbook
1:18:00 Dear Grownup, Not Dear Parent
1:21:37 What Children Wish Grownups Would Understand
1:22:48 The Caning Story
1:23:49 How Childhood Trauma Shapes Our Parenting
1:26:28 The Experience That Changed Her Forever
1:28:05 Final Thoughts
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Keep Blooming!
So recently Meta and YouTube have been on trial because a child has lost her life.
SPEAKER_00If a parent is watching this, they're probably gonna be questioning, like, what does tech have anything to do with this? We think we're handing our kids the world a screen, a connection, an opportunity. But what if the thing we're giving them is the very thing pulling them somewhere we can't follow?
SPEAKER_01Our kids are very easily fooled because they're looking for that belonging. So I started to understand children as icebergs. But what we don't realize is that there is such a huge space underneath that iceberg that creates that child. What experience has changed your perspective of how adults should engage with children? I do remember a time where I was. The thing I would ask for if I was a child is provide me a safe space to be. We all respond from the place of our own childhood trauma.
SPEAKER_00And she's here to teach us how. This one's for the parents trying their best at the dinner table, for the teachers holding 20 worlds at once, and for every kid who's ever wished someone would just notice. What are these signals coming from the children? What are they trying to tell us? Or I often hear kids saying hi, Fazia. How are you? Um well thank you. Thank you so much for joining our podcast today. It's an honor having you here. Thank you. So before we dive in our conversation, tell me a little bit about yourself.
SPEAKER_01Alright, so thank you, Natalia, for having me here. Um, first and foremost, I'm a mom of two. Um, I'm an educator at heart, um, and that's driven a lot of what I do and why I'm here. So I am a leader in education and I work on inclusive education within schools. The thing I love about what I do is I go into many different schools and form relationships with so many different people that bring this practice to a complete circle to make experiences better for kids and families. What made you dive into this journey? So I was motivated by education that I've seen here. Um, my own kids were in school here. Um, and then I've seen how inclusion had evolved over the years. So at the beginning, when we first came to Dar Salam, inclusion was a thing that you may have heard of, but it wasn't practiced well. Differentiation, which means you know, teaching for different kinds of students, was a topic, but how do you actually do that in schools here? So that was something that was very new. Um, and the reason I began doing this was to bring that alive in the schools.
SPEAKER_00Is there a moment when you wanted to dive deep into your child's education? Was there something that made you say, you know what? I'm gonna actually look deeper into this. What was it exactly?
SPEAKER_01Um, so it was understanding the needs of all of our kids. Okay. Um, when I first started in education, I thought there was a one-size model that fit everybody else. You get in front of the class and you teach X, Y, Z. Everybody goes into their groups and they do it. And then when someone's not working at the same pace, or this is not happening, um, we have to figure out what that was or what makes that happen. Um, but that became more of a challenge for teachers. Um, and I evolved personally by trying to understand kids and how uh they're different, why they're different, um, and then create plans for them to conquer those differences, if I could say that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and then what that did for me as an educator was allowed me to understand, I shifted from there is one type of student that we teach to all, and shifted that thought into there are at least five or six different kinds of kids. And you know what? When those kids come into your classroom, so do their parents. So there are all these personalities that mix into your class that you have to create space and time for. So that was the thing that drove me to education was trying to understand and accommodate all of those different personalities and mindsets.
SPEAKER_00Do you mind sharing some examples on how you were able to actually accommodate those different personalities and mindset? And you also say including the parents as well.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I started to understand children as icebergs, if I could say that. Yeah. Um, you know what an iceberg looks like in the photo. You've got something at the top, it's white, it's pretty, it's small, it floats on the ice, it looks like pristine, right? Um, and then that's what we see in our kids. We see them walking around, you see they're happy or they're sad, you see what they look like, you see what they wear. You might scowl at some of the, you know, differences in their clothing or what they choose to behave like. Yeah. And behavior is one of those things too, right? So we see what they look like on the top. Um, but what we don't realize is that there is such a huge space underneath that iceberg that creates that child. And that's been the thing that pushes me to understand kids a little bit more and what drives me to push my own learning.
SPEAKER_00Are you trying to say that Titanic underestimated that iceberg? And I feel like it's a way of you also saying that there is more to kids are definitely misunderstood.
SPEAKER_01So whatever is under that iceberg, it's hard to spot, you know? Um, you've got social interactions, you have parenting, you've got, you know, homework not being done, but because of XYZ, um, all of these influences that are underneath. You've got now social media with children, you've got tech, yeah. Um, all of these things are at the bottom and they create what you're seeing at the top. So if they're mild-mannered or misbehaved or whatever, it's coming from all of those things that fuse up and create the person they are at the top.
SPEAKER_00Let's dive deep into that because I feel like there's a lot, you know, you've mentioned, and it's very confusing to we could say parents of today. So, speaking about our iceberg, right? Pretty at the top, but there's just so much at the bottom, which you've listed, one of them it, one of it being tech um, that also dives into the interactive and the social skills of a child. And we've seen that a lot these days. Can you please elaborate more about how tech has something to do with that?
SPEAKER_01Kids, when they're growing up, they look to model the way people behave, right? And it's a very subconscious action. Yeah, kids don't intentionally say, I want to be like XYZ. They see that and they want to emulate that not purposefully, but they might silently choose clothing that fits a superstar. Um, they won't choose clothing that fits their mom or dad, you know. Yeah. Um at a after a certain age, after a certain age, they become their own, right? Yeah. And that's when they start looking outward, and that's where the challenges step in. Um, you've got tech that influences them now in a way that is beyond what we used to know or that I used to know when I was younger. Um before you'd have magazines. And I remember, you know, when you go cut your hair, you'd have a lady in the magazine that I want my hair to look like that lady. But right now you've got pictures of people all over the internet. Not only is that something they look up to to model, it's also something that makes kids feel more insecure about themselves. That when you finally get that haircut or you get that outfit, that satisfaction may not be there because it doesn't look the exact same.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I mean, don't you think that's scary to expose our, you know, our youth in at the moment? What should parents do to protect their children to make sure they're safe with them using these gadgets, being in these platforms? What do you think parents should be doing?
SPEAKER_01So let's break that question down a little bit. So we've got several parts there. Um, shifting into tech. Yeah. We know that that's the way the world is going. AI is here to stay, technology is here to stay, everybody's got an iPad or a phone. Schools have had to make policies about phones, leave your phone at the door because it's become such a distraction. And this is a worldwide move. People are really looking to manage and control how kids are using the phone, but that's in school. Yeah. Um, and in school, they're using other tech to learn. Um, but as soon as they get their phones back or get back on that uh bus or car ride home or something, they get home. And then you've got that shift to the home devices. Um, and then we see this as well for our younger kids. So when we parent, what do we do when our kid is upset or maybe needs to eat something and can't sit still? Whereas before it might have been TV, now it's you're giving that child the phone to help support them through mealtime. Yeah. Um, and that becomes a habit, that becomes a crutch. Yeah. Um, and so kids are leaning towards that. So, that being said, this shift towards tech is also something that's needed because we need to learn how to responsibly balance it and understand it. I don't think we're in a space right now where we can shy away from it. And I see that you have two different moves of uh two different shifts in thinking. One, there is more a forest school approach where people are taking their kids out, and there's some curriculums that are focused on outdoor education and thinking about education of, you know, well-being as a whole and looking at naturalistic cycles. And then you've got schools which are leaning more towards the tech, um, and home that's more towards the tech as a way of either babysitting kids or uh in lieu of social time. So where the kids are not getting out, but they're looking towards their devices to help them out. Um, so the way I see that going is that we need to balance that at home. Um, that doesn't necessarily remove all devices. Um, but I do always recommend setting up a family plan um of action for how you're using tech. Are there certain times where tech is allowed? Are there certain times you take them away? Um at home, we've tried to institute a box, for example, at dinner. So when it's at dinner time, my daughter's created a box and everybody's phone goes in there. I will tell you the reality of the situation is that the phones don't go into the box. But there is now more awareness of that we shouldn't have the phones when we're sitting there to eat, right? Sometimes we go astray depending on if everybody's got a bad day. But I think as parents, we need to set those boundaries, have those rules in place, but not parents only setting those rules. You sit as a family, have a meeting. Yeah, you know, this is how we see uh tech balance running in our household and make it something that everybody could live with. Tech is here to stay. Yeah, we just have to find a way to embrace it responsibly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And I think one of the things that you've also mentioned, which is linked to tech, is the social skills. Yes. Um, we've noticed a lot of not just the youth, as well as us as adults and our parents, they're mostly focused on their phones, on their tabs. Yeah. And you don't really see a lot of interaction happening. What do you think? What advice do you give us? Yeah, you know, who are so embedded to our tech? How do we navigate actually having to talk? Like how we're talking, having conven conversations.
SPEAKER_01So let's go back to the root of that. I think, yes, the invention of the phone was a massive curse, but it's so convenient at the same time. Yeah. And we're in an information age where we are looking for things. We want it now, now, right away. Um, and I am hard pressed to find somebody that isn't looking all the time for something that they need to go out and buy or do something else. And we consider that multitasking possibly, but it's also taking attention away from things that have to happen. Yeah. Um, this kind of goes back to the balance, right? And then just creating some awareness around that because the phones are going to be here to stay. We have to be very conscious of the way we're using it, uh, be purposeful with that. Um, I've seen um when people are trying to work, they might shut off WhatsApp or turn their phone off or put it away. So you have some time that is purposely designated um for this. So if you're here in school, for example, as a parent, is your phone on? Is it off? Are you here for the meeting or are you on a call? So you have to make decisions as a parent. And the same boundaries you're putting on your kids, you set on yourself, which is hard.
SPEAKER_00That is true. And with the kids, now there are specific apps that are used because I mean Roblox. Yes. We noticed that they interact more using different apps, and it can be scary. What are some of the examples that you could share with us that parents can understand not just the pros of tech and having their kids exposed to these apps, but also the cons?
SPEAKER_01Okay, so in a post-pandemic environment, we are seeing more and more as educators this lack of social interaction. Um, and while we were very lucky here in Tanzania, we were not isolated for longer than a few months, right? But out um in other parts of the world, people were homeschooled and uh schools were online and for this went on for years. So in those years, there had been a lack of social interaction. Um, and so what did you lean towards when you needed a friend or you needed something to do? You'd have to go to your app or open up Roblox or open up some other program because the internet was still going. Yeah, just the social interaction with people didn't exist. Um, and so this shaped the way we interacted with people and with the tech that we have. I think we built a habit on leaning towards these things for acceptance, belonging, understanding, and that goes for the adults as well as the kids. Um, I think the most frightening stat I heard after you know, all of this research has come out is the increase in anxiety in our kids that has stemmed from this lack of uh social interaction and then reintroducing them back into schools. Somehow that has not improved between 2024 and 2026. You know, you've got this increase of social anxiety that consist continues to persevere. Um and we've got classes to help kids with that now. You've got uh PC classes, social classes, you've got counselors in schools. Yeah. But I see a really great response to help kids to come out of that. Yeah. Um, we do, as parents, though, have to be very conscious of that. So I'm gonna keep going back to this. Um, I also read recently that kids who are in their room after eight with their devices have a higher risk of suicide. And that's based on their exposure to the material that they're reading. And if they're unreading, watching, whatever, if it goes unchecked, um, this has a really negative impact on kids. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00But you know, our, you know, the the youth, our generation, they tend to be sensitive when I mean, even us as adults, when our privacy is being, you know, like, hey, let me see what you're looking at. Yes. How do parents navigate having to make sure that they are yes what's the word? Helicopter parenting. Helicopter parenting, yes. Um, they're not like how do parents positively reinforce checking their children's devices without having to cross specific boundaries that can make a child feel self-aware, self-cautious, again, anxious, right? Having them feel like, oh, I've done something so wrong, right? The positive reinforcements. Okay.
SPEAKER_01So this comes in several ways, right? There's no one answer to this. Yeah. And it's simply because you've got to attack a situation from several different sides.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I think as soon as we look at bulldozing one decision, you know, and making one solution to a problem, you create a whole other problem, right? That which direction are you going? What which direction will you go in? Um, and so what I would say is when you provide your child with a device, what are the rules for those devices? Have you established them, right? And when I say rules, I mean, you know, are what apps are you allowed? What apps are you not allowed? What interactions are you allowed to have? For example, uh, strangers are off limits on your phone for calling, for messaging. Um, I know with my kids, I had said, I will check your phone every so often just to make sure things are okay. And especially if I notice that something is off. Is off. I'm reserving the right to do that, right? And my daughter was quite cheeky. So she says, I'm gonna buy my own phone so you don't have to do that. Um, and that that was something we we did allow her to do that, but the rules were the same. Yeah, because this is a safety issue. Um, we need to be able to reserve the right to look at that. Yeah. So when I say that, I don't mean that we take out their phone every day to look at everything that's on there because I also want to trust that they're also responsible. Yes. Right. And we understand that mistakes can be made. So as a parent, that's probably your biggest thing is your child will make a mistake. Are you gonna freak out? Are you gonna keep yourself in check? How are you gonna manage the way that you you handle this mistake? Right. And it's always better to err on the side of caution that when they do come out with something that, oh my God, I'm on TikTok, but I'm not supposed to be. All right. Remember when we talked about having this app on your phone? Um, what do you think should happen now? Right. And you sit down and you have that conversation because guess what? You should have known that that was a possibility, right? As soon as you open the door, it's like anything is possible. Yeah, you've been a kid yourself, you've tried to sneak some things in there, and that's what our kids will do. Um, so we have to get ahead of that. So what that first part is setting the boundaries. Yes. Understanding yourself, yes. Um, who are you as a parent? What is my reaction going to be? Um, am I gonna freak out? Am I going to stay calm? And always err on the side of staying calm because I think you want to get your child back in. Uh the moment you start creating a barrier between you and your child, yeah, um, they start to look more towards the phone and other people for acceptance because you're not accepting them. Accept them. Understand that this is something they have to do. But what are your boundaries and what lines are you willing to cross? Um, and then there are, you know, different kinds of parents who really don't check phones at all. Um, and for these, I say do that with caution. Um, but have conversations with your kids to understand what's what's what's happening. Um you going back to that iceberg thing, you know, you've got that iceberg that you're seeing at the top. Um look out for quiet kids, the ones who don't have responses or the ones who aren't saying anything. And those are the ones that you could sit down with as well and notice the silence, especially if they're not usually quiet and reach out to see what's going on.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And it is scary, you know, what you say about after eight, a lot of the youth, that is where the suicide rate um, you know, increases. Um, are you also leaning towards the manipulative state in tech when it comes to these apps? Because as we know, they are different dangers, and yes, parents need to be more aware about what's happening. So, you know, if a parent is watching this, they're probably gonna be questioning like, what does tech have anything to do with this? What does tech have anything to do with the fact that the suicide rate, you know, has become higher um after eight, you know. What is what is linked? What's the link to that?
SPEAKER_01You know, so recently Meta and YouTube have been on trial uh because a child has lost her life uh because their the parents have said it's the fault of YouTube and uh and Instagram. Um the case became about The standards that these platforms set for our children. And the reason this became such a key case is because research on their systems have found that they are looking for ways to grab the attention of children and put them in. Let's use the like button, for example. So you post something on Instagram. Uh, somebody likes your story. All right, that's great. On someone else's story, you see 500 more likes. Well, they've got more likes than you. You start to measure yourself against other people. And so it creates this vacuum of comparative rationale where I'm not as special as this other person. Um, and then you start to feel low in your self-esteem. You don't feel so good about yourself. So the reality is these platforms are great for kids to learn how to use and navigate, but the impact is on well-being. And that's where kids tend to lose themselves, right? Um and that's where we have these discussions about suicide because you're comparing yourself against someone who you think might be better. But how many times in reality do we see Instagram videos being retaken 500 times, right? The reality is life is not always perfect, but because our kids' brains are so susceptible and malleable and they're still changing, they don't understand that. They see that and think, oh my God, that's reality. But it's not, it's someone else's made-up fake reality that they've put on there.
SPEAKER_00So one of our very famous favorite apps, Roadblocks. Please, what do you think about that?
SPEAKER_01Um, so Roadblocks historically has had some challenges. Um, and that's specifically in the fact that the app is so open to kids being able to contact other people or strangers being able to contact your kids rather than the other way around. Um, so first thing is you're allowed to create your own world, right? So when we're talking about social anxiety and getting out and making friends and playing outside, you've got now an entire world you've created for yourself, well and good. But then you've got interactions online that you've created with people who you may not know. Um, and so this issue of catfishing comes up where someone might reach out to you or reach out to your children, sorry, and pretend they're someone else. Um, our kids are very uh easily fooled because they're looking for that belonging and they're looking for love and they're looking for someone to accept them. And some stranger out there, as soon as they say, Hey, that's such a great idea, or you're so nice, or you look so great, you tend to embrace that because it's very different from any other criticism that could come your way. Um, and so the program itself is like a moth to a flame for our kids because it provides a sense of belonging. I've heard um that they're trying to institute some safety protocols for that. Uh things like facial recognition when you log on to the app. I'm not sure how useful that's going to be. Um, but it is something that parents should have uh caution when kids are working online with this program. Yeah. Um and hey, instead of creating a world online, just get outside.
SPEAKER_00Go outside.
SPEAKER_01Go outside.
SPEAKER_00And I actually have a very interesting question. Um, because the child has already created their own world in this app. Yeah. And when they go back to reality, they already see the difference, like, you know, mom's not listening to me like how Jane is listening to me, or dad's not paying attention to me, like how John is paying attention to me. How do we transition them snapping back to reality and saying, that is your world in the internet? But come back, come back to reality. What do parents or what should we do as educators support?
SPEAKER_01We have to understand that that is their reality, right? Our reality as we know it is something different based on our own experience, but they're just forming their experiences. So part of that is creating a reality that in their mind is what's out there, yeah, right? So as soon as you say come back to reality, that's invalidating something that they've deemed very important. But this Roblox reality is important to me. Um, and I do think parents could also embrace that in a way to say, show me.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Let me see what this is all about. Um, and I wonder also if we can find alternatives for our apps like this, that if you do need something like that, um, to use an alternative app. But to phrase this in such a way to say your reality is not accurate, I think that's where we start to push them back into the space where they're defending themselves. That belonging thing pops up again, um, and they disappear into another world or your relationship just breaks down very slowly. Um, yeah, so we have to be a little bit careful in this time. If you haven't started using Roblox, I would just say leave it. Leave it. Don't even dive into that because it's such a world on its own. Yeah. Um, I can also see in parts of the world the age of using social media has increased. I think Australia's recently been cited as raising their age to 16. 16, yeah, which I think is phenomenal. And they've tried to have this discussion about control. Is it a matter of control that you say that you know the age limit is 16, you're not allowed, or talking to kids to allow them uh time to get space on on these platforms that they love so much? Yeah. Um, and so this is a discussion that goes both ways. Uh TikTok has just employed a group of youth uh to support safety. Um and so they're trying to balance this. So all the tech companies, they know, they know it's there. Yeah. Um, and then with the recent verdict on YouTube and Meta as well, I think that was a massive shift. Yeah. Um so now we get to see how these platforms respond to kids rather than the other way around.
SPEAKER_00And I think because they're seeing this is where our generation is leading to because tech is now our is our norm, you know.
SPEAKER_01Tech is our norm. This is where it and it's so true because it's here to stay. Yeah. There's so much though we need to learn about balance.
SPEAKER_00You know, being an educator, uh, as well as you, um, there are child behaviors that are signals that adults really miss out or are missing out. Or is it something that we should be missing out? What are these signals coming from the children? What are they trying to tell us?
SPEAKER_01All right, so let's look at our kids as icebergs, right? So you've got this top of the iceberg, like we said, it's everything you see, uh, you know, and that's the thing that they want you to see. I look happy, I'm smiling, or maybe they want you to see they're miserable, um, but they wear it on their faces, right? You see their clothing, you see the friends that they're with, right? You those are the things that you see. Um, and then what's under that iceberg is all of the things that are affecting them differently. Um, and it's hard for parents to understand what that is because you can't see those things. Yeah. And when we say, hey, how was your day? We're expecting that bottom of the iceberg to suddenly pop up and shine like a rainbow up the top. And that's not how that works.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so what I do try and do is listen for quiet signals, what is not being said. Um, and that's how are they when they're with themselves, right? Um, how are they when they're with their devices? How are they when they're eating or sitting? How quiet, what kinds of conversations are they getting along with their siblings? Because that tells you a lot about what a child is going through.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so it helps to be in tune with what is not being said when it comes to behavior. Yeah. And also understanding that not all behavior is what you're seeing on the top of that iceberg. So although someone might slam a door, I think you know, you've read in the past, you've seen videos of moms and dads removing doors. Yeah. Right. Removing the locks. Yeah, removing the locks. Don't slam my door. This is my house. I run what happens in this house. You're part of the problem. Yeah. Right? Um, so instead of saying don't slam the door, maybe you need to figure out why the door was slammed in the first place. Yeah. Um, and yeah, you're right. Communication shouldn't mean slamming a door. Yeah. But at what point do you have that conversation? And so we want to wait for that moment of calm. That when you are now trying to understand that behavior, yes, I've made observations X, Y, Z, I've kept it in here. I'm waiting now for a moment. The mistake we commonly make is we want to jump at that moment, the door gets slammed. We want to get in there and resolve this issue right away because at some point our psychology tells us problems need to solve, be solved right away. Solved right away. Yeah. And that's not what works. So, in my experience with the kids that we've had at schools, with the kids who are in my own home, with our friends, with, you know, you wait for a moment when things are calm, and then you sit down with a cup of tea, cup of coffee, whatever is, you know, floating your boat at the time, ice cream, okay. Um and you talk that through. So, hey, I noticed, right? This has happened. Um, and then you let it be open for them to speak, right? I think as soon as you make judgments or we make condemning statements, um, that behavior regresses as well. And then you'll see more of that door slamming rather than understanding.
SPEAKER_00Now, I just have a an interesting question to juggle. Um, what we spoke about, the signals. Okay. Now, it comes to the transitions coming from a parent who wants to get to the bottom of why you just slammed my door when I'm trying to talk to you. Right. To the fact that I don't have the patience to actually ask why you just slammed my door, why did you just slam my door? You know? Yeah. So what do you think we as educators and also parents, how should they navigate from not being patient? Like, I don't really have time to ask you why you just slammed my door. Right. Why did you, you know? Yeah. Um, we do have parents who are like that, who don't have that patience to actually be like, you know what, I'm gonna take a deep breath. I'm gonna step back a bit. How should we do? Like, what do you think we should do?
SPEAKER_01I think what has worked for me in the past is to remember that I've had a great number of years on this earth beyond that child. And although I might have more of some moral rationale or this ability to work through these problems, our kids don't yet. And they need to be taught how to do that. Um, so as parents, I think we work on developing our own growth mindset. Yeah. How do we work through difficult issues by um looking at a problem of our own, right? Reflecting on ourselves. What are things that we want to change? Yeah. And you know, are we taking care of ourselves enough to know that we don't need to snap to make a point be heard? Um, and I think a lot of us need work on ourselves to be able to manage our kids. Yeah. Um, so I try and do that. I'm not always good at it, but it's something that we just need to keep in mind. Um, and remembering, yes, our kids are gonna make mistakes because that's their job, that's what they're gonna do. Their whole entire reason for being here is to test you just a little bit and see what, you know, push your buttons. Push your buttons a bit, see what what light lights up to you, right? Yeah. Um, and then you have to just kind of be on top of that. But it's not fair for you as a parent to say, I have to always be on my game. And so it's okay for you to also take a timeout. You need that timeout. I think you have to look at that timeout in a positive way to say if I don't take this time out now, I'm going to lose it. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Um, and that's such a conscious effort uh to be able to walk through.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. And with children having to actually show these little signals that as adults we tend to miss out most of the time. Um, most of the times you will hear, oh, this child is, and I don't, as an educator, I don't like saying the word naughty. Right. We would rather say maybe they're going through something, right? You know, and most of them's like, oh, this child is misbehaving. That's one of the signals. Right. You know. Or they're like, ah, it's just moody, it's just crying for no reason, you know. And that is a signal. But how do we know that's a signal of them maybe crying for help? Or they're going through a bad day, you know? Yeah. We would understand that because now we're getting into that point of knowing the child and accepting them as they are and not judging them. We you mean as educators. As educators now when it comes to parents, they're just like, ah, stop naughty, you know. Right, right. There are different ways where we can navigate that. Right.
SPEAKER_01Would you like to share some so I think the first thing that comes to mind is kids are routine-based creatures, right? And so when they snap at something, I think we have to understand in their environment what has changed, what has um shifted. You mentioned transitions, right? Has there been something that uh has changed? Um, and I've had parents come to me to say, you know, I need their help to do work in the house. I need somebody to wash my dishes, or I need this. You've got house help, but I think this parent or these parents are trying to institute, myself included, are trying to institute a space in their home where or a practice in their home where kids help mom. Mom is overburdened with cooking and maybe not so much cleaning, but homework and all of those things. So she needs help from the kids. But what they haven't set out is a routine to say, do each of us have a responsibility? Yeah. Um, and so this is kind of going back before your time of change, though, to set these things in place. Um, and then we'll shift forward to what happens afterwards. So this is all pre-work that has to be done. If we know these issues are popping up, we sit down, we reflect, why is this happening? Um, and then you say, okay, part of this routine in our home, something I would like to see is I need help with the dishes, I need help with cooking, I need help with whatever it is that's in your home. Maybe you have a lawn that you need to mow or whatever. You know, you need to have a flower bed created or something, right? Um, but if you just sit there and say, now, go do my dishes now, and I think you're taking away from the fact that that child has something else on their mind that they want to do. Yeah. So by setting those routines, you're creating space for them to understand, hey, I have this job, I'm gonna check this off a list, and then move on to do something else. Um, and so that transition, what I'm saying is it becomes simpler, more simple, sorry, when you have an expectation that's created. You've got boundaries that have been set in your home. Um, and then this just becomes a point of fact. Everybody's got a job. This is yours, this is mine, um, and we're working together to make this function.
SPEAKER_00Um, and something caught my eye in our conversation in our coffee table. Yeah. There is something that you have here for us. It's it's written brain brain dump. Brain dump. Yeah. Is that one of the examples that maybe we could use to help children navigate their routines and also make it an inclusive thing as a family?
SPEAKER_01So this is uh not my creation, but the brain dump is about listing all of the things that you have on your plate for that week, that day, that month, whatever that is. Um, I say if you go weekly, your memory might not stretch for an entire month. So do this possibly weekly or even daily, right? And pop this up on the fridge. Hey, this is what everybody's got going on for the week. This is where I need to step back. Um, so-and-so's got an exam coming up. There's a lot of homework that needs to be done. Maybe as a parent, I need to back away a little bit and just measure how my responses are. Am I expecting them to step in and do as many chores? Um, and also homework. Is there something I can support you with? Right. Those, all of those things can go on here as well. Yeah, the brain dump is not mine, but it's a tool that uh can be used in the home when you're talking about routines. So it's a brain dump just to throw all the things out there that you have going on and communicate with your family to let everybody else know that this is what's happening.
SPEAKER_00And it's is it also a form where we could have adults understand the signal that the child is trying to, you know, beep out?
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um it's pre-work to understanding that as well. So when you do see that they're reacting a certain way, yeah, you take your moment, you back away. I understand you've got a lot going on right now. Yeah. Um, can I help you? Yeah. Okay. Um, in saying that though, you do have to draw boundaries as an adult. I think when your kids are, you know, if you hear them speaking rudely to you, or you know, you you have to draw some lines there for that as well. Talking back. Talking back. Um, and it's great if your kids are standing up for themselves. I advocate for that 100%. But when it comes to uh behavior that is insulting, um, behavior that is manipulative or behavior that's putting other people down, you do need to draw that line. Um and maybe it's not at that moment because there is a heightened level of emotion, but that does need to then apply a consequence. And that consequence should fit what that behavior is like. So in the moment, you're not saying I'm accepting the behavior, you're saying we're gonna talk about this later. And then depending on what the behavior is, there might be a consequence applied to that. And that's quite reasonable. I think in every time that I've tried that, I find it hard-pressed that a child does not realize why that's coming to them. And because they're more calm at the time of conversation, they can sit with you and completely understand that consequence rather than doing it at the time uh where everything is uh heightened or elevated, where the emotions are higher.
SPEAKER_00Higher. As an educator, um, do you mind sharing some in your journey some of the transitions that you have seen or probably have experienced, which were dealt poorly or well? Um, in any case, uh, I'd love to hear some more.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so I think one of the greatest transitions that we see uh more often in my line of work um is in movement. So moving countries, shifting schools, moving houses, um, because that involves some grieving for our kids to leave something behind and embrace something new. So managing these transitions for parents also becomes tough. I think parents look at transitions as being their job to manage. And it's not a hundred percent your job because you making decisions for your child means you're not hearing their concerns as well. You know you have to move, you have there's no issue about that. Um, but how you manage that transition becomes so important. One of the challenges that parents have is they focus on just that, the challenges. I think parents try and preempt what challenges will my child have, and so they try and fix this situation before it happens. Maybe we go visit the school first, first, we try and you know talk to the other school, my child is XYZ, and they try and explain their child, you know, in a in a way that the school could understand them. So those are challenges for parents, they're changes for the parents. Um, but instead of focusing on the challenges, I often uh try and encourage parents to look at strengths. So, what do the strengths, what are the strengths that your children have that they bring to a change situation?
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01Okay, so if they're coming to a new school, what are they looking forward to? So if they're into sports, for example, um, hey, here are this, here's the sports schedule of the new activities that are at your school. Getting them to look at things that they might be more optimistic about rather than things that would challenge them. Um, and that change has a cycle as well, right? So We know that there's going to be a point where we're introducing that change and then we're looking at the challenges is definitely part of that. Strengths is part of it as well. And then coming to this whole cycle where we revisit is this working for us? Do we need to find a different way to manage this particular situation? But the biggest thing is keeping the kids in loop with that conversation.
SPEAKER_00Is there a story that you have where specific changes and the transitions were dealt poorly?
SPEAKER_01Yes. We've had, you know, I think this happens in every school where a child may have a negative experience in a previous school. And so they've brought that negative understanding or preconception to this school. And so when we look at behavior, I often hear kids saying, Well, in my old school, they did this to me. And so we have to try and put that in the front of mind, right? So this is what happened in your old school. Can you tell me where this is happening to you right now? Yeah. And then learning from that experience and using growth mindset. So I'm always swinging back to growth mindset to learn from past failures and where we've not done well, trying to reframe that into how we can make those learning experiences and create successes from things that have failed, which is really tough.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Because we look at failure and we think, oh my God, I'm never going to do that again. But we have to reframe that. And I think that's something parents, educators, all can embrace is yes, that happened. Yeah. It's a point of fact. I totally understand. And I understand is probably the most powerful phrase you will ever say. Right? But it hits that moment so hard that it creates space now for yes, you understand. What else can we do to make this happen?
SPEAKER_00What's your take on the importance of alignment of what's happening at school and at home with both just not not just change, not just with transitions? How does that, you know, what is so important? Why is it so the alignment so important? It is so important. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01We are in partnership with one another. And I think this is the way we have to look at school and home connection, right? Um, you bring your children to school. Kids are in school for most of the day. Yes. Right? They learn from all of their peers. We talked about modeling. They learn to model certain behaviors and everything, and they go back home to you, right? Um, homework that is done at home is checked in school. These are points of fact. You know, we've got uh data points that we're trying to mark in school that you know we need some support with at home. This does not mean mom does your homework at home. That's not partnership, but partnership in communication, right? So-and-so has had a tough day, did not sleep well, what have you? You get all of those emails from parents. Yeah, and I think as schools, we've got to embrace that. You know, thank you so much for letting us know.
SPEAKER_00Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, we will keep an eye out. And so you've got the system then that kind of works with free flow of information. Yeah. Meals, have they eaten? Did they eat in school? And I know sometimes uh this is one of those things that do get missed because teachers are very busy, right? Yeah. Um, I know some teachers check lunchboxes because you tend to go the opposite end as well. And some parents do require that. But that parent uh school communication is so important in speaking about school and home partnership. If a parent has an issue, right? As as you know, it often happens. Um, my child was hit at school.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Okay, let's take that example. My child is being bullied. This is a phrase we hear all the time, right? And everything encompasses bullying, doesn't it? So if they were hit once or pushed or their toy was taken, this word bullying pops up all the time. But bullying is a very, very, it has deep meaning to it has a deep meaning to it, right? Um, but remember, as a parent, you're at home, you're not sure what happens. Yeah, you've heard this situation, and so you've come to school with the word bullying, right? So now as teachers, alarm bells go off, who's bullying in my class, yeah, right? Um, and so one of the things we've got to remember is as a school, try not to get in that defensive position, which is really hard because you want to make your school the best place that your kids want to attend. Um, but it's great to just sit back and say, I completely understand. There's that word again, right? I hear you. Um, please let me look into this because I agree with you. That's not okay. Yeah. Um, and then you don't come back with a defensive response, but um you do need to figure out what that situation is. But the the bottom line that I'm trying to get at here is as a school, then our responses should be, I get it. Um, I also know that parents don't always come in emotionally checked. Um, it is your job as a parent to defend your child. That is something that is understandable. Yeah, I don't think anybody's gonna be able to change that. Um moms get emotional, dads get emotional at the same time. We see it on emails, you see it in person. Um and so we have to really respond to that in a in a fair way. And I guess as parents as well, just keep in mind that if your school is hearing about a situation for the first time, allow them the time to investigate what that is. And remember you're in partnership. Yes. The moment you start talking at home about the school, keep that conversation in check. What are your words like? Are they positive? Are they negative? Is your child going to come to school and look at their teacher in a different way? Yeah, because of the conversations you're having in reflection of what's happening at home. Um, and so that relationship is so key to just make sure it's flowing well, um, conversations are positive, uh, and then you're you're just understanding each other with what you say, um, and I totally agree.
SPEAKER_00But we also tend to see the pitfalls that actually tend to break these connections. What are the signs that you have seen that you know that this connection or this form of alignment is actually gonna break coming from not just parents, schools, or what conversation that the child actually hears from both sides?
SPEAKER_01I think the point that this relationship, I'd like to call it a relationship. Yeah. Um, the point where this relationship breaks down is when that communication becomes either one-sided, um, accusatory, abusive. Okay. I think when we think of partnership in this relationship, we're thinking of working together. But as soon as there comes a power struggle, um, and you know, with with proprietary schools here, these are schools that you pay fees to attend. Our teachers are like customer service agents, right? They're trying to be on top of their game, they're trying to say things that are the most appropriate, trying to appease parents as much as possible. Um, but you do find parents coming in with more of a right to, well, I'm paying for this, and so this is my right. And that is fair, that is true, but your language is so important, and you're not paying to be abusive to someone. That is true, right? And that is something that breaks that relationship. I think we I have seen uh parents coming into school, swearing, getting really upset, and it's a safety concern for teachers, and this is all over the world, right? So I'm sure you've seen on the news in the States with what's happening with education um and the reaction of parents. And yes, we have the right to defend our kids, but it comes down to a giant how.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Um, but those that would say that's the the pitfall or that is something that would break that relationship down is when you stop seeing yourself as a partner and seeing that you own this process.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. Yeah. Um, to ask more about that, have you noticed that you say something that's, you know, I've seen a lot as well, that teachers now tune into their customer service, you know, likeness. Yes. Um have you seen how much that has affected an educator? What do you have to say to educators out there who have to tune into their customer service, you know, have that voice. Yeah. Robotic. And what do you have to say to have them be like, hey, you know what? You don't have to be a robot.
SPEAKER_01But in a way, you do have to be a robot, right? It's just knowing when to turn it on and when to turn it off.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Whether we like it or not, there is something called game face. Game face. And you gotta have that game face on all the time. But the same advice I would give to parents, same thing with the teacher is have an outlet. Have an outlet where you go somewhere and express that so that you could come back and put your robot back on. You know, you can get back into whatever game face you got going on, but then you have an outlet. Either you're playing a sport, um, you're going dancing, whatever that is, right? You're spending time with your family, you're you're out watching the sunset, you're taking a weekend away. Take the time for yourself because you're not gonna get that back. And that's your well-being that's being etched away. Yeah. Uh so keep your game face. That is exactly the thing that you need to do. But find an outlet for yourself.
SPEAKER_00That's why I asked it. It's because we see it so many times. We see it so many times. Yeah, like all of a sudden, like, I don't want to deal with you, but hey, you know, I need to get back to class. Oh, I'll speak to you soon. And you turn around, you're like, oh, not again, not again.
SPEAKER_01And it actually tends to have the you know, the teacher feel so not just that, every time you see that parent, you're like, oh my god, I'm gonna go to the money deal with this, you know.
SPEAKER_00And I mean, yes, it's it's our reality, it's our life, you know, it is our lives. This is teaching life, yeah. But at the same time, we also we we do tend to turn away and we're like, oh that this parent, but then we can't do that in front of the parent. No, most importantly, we can't do it in front of the child, too.
SPEAKER_01Definitely not.
SPEAKER_00Um, and I think parents also need to understand like we're humans, you know, we are human too.
SPEAKER_01And that's such a good point. I think what I've learned to do is actually embrace those hard conversations. Yeah. That has been a massive help because you know what? Those hard conversations are gonna continue to be hard.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and we want to develop empathy as well in our practice, right? Exactly. Um, and so to have that parent see what I'm going through, the only way for me to do that is to be open.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So I'm gonna be my robot self, but I'm also gonna be honest while smiling. Um, and it's in the way that you put those responses together. Yeah. So I do find I walk towards the flame just to try and embrace it to understand more because it could actually improve my practice.
SPEAKER_00It does also not just improve our practice, it also improves the relationship that we're building, not with just the parent, but with the child who just came from a different country or from a different school. Yeah. Because, okay, some parents do have that mindset saying, I am paying so much school fees. Right. You know, you have to be good to my child. My child is right, you're wrong. But the moment where you know, and I praise you for walking into that flame. Yeah. Because it just doesn't show you your strength of saying, you know, I'm gonna get this sorted with you. Yes. But it's also showing the parent, like, yes, some things did happen, yeah, but I'm here for not just you, I'm here for your child. Yes. You know, it's the child is the key priority, you know, here. Your child is priority. Yeah. And it can get exhausting, you know. We go through that transition with your child too, because we're trying to get to know you, not just your child.
SPEAKER_01And this is why teachers are probably the most courageous people on earth because they have maybe 15 to 20 human beings that they have to try and understand, remember their names, their personalities, what they like to eat, what they did on the weekend, and those parents that they're connected with as well. So we have, I don't have a very good memory, but I try and use cues, right? Or you you're really opening yourself up to helping other people. We're so brave for doing that.
SPEAKER_00We are, we're patient. You are so brave for doing that. Thank you. Um, you know, we've spoken about one of the signals of a child is misbehaving, you know. Sometimes misbehave and actually point it out as a signal that as parents or adults or educators need to kind of, you know, dive in and see that signal. But sometimes kids just misbehave for the sake of misbehaving. Yeah, you know, and how do parents need to actually now distinguish that a child is misbehaving and pointing it out as a signal, or the child is misbehaving for the sake of misbehaving. And I'm sure you've seen that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Definitely. Um, and it's we're going back to kids' jobs are to push our boundaries a little bit as they grow. Yeah. Um, what kinds of things am I allowed to do? Yeah. Can I get away with watching a little bit of extra TV or having some more tablet time? Um, and they push those, push that envelope a little bit, right? I find that one of the reasons they push is because at one point we've allowed that to happen as adults. So again, you're I'm answering your question in two parts. One is that there is this conception that um they can push and get away with pushing, and you're allowing that to happen. And then two, we're going back to that consequence where I understand you've got a lot going on, but you are not allowed to disrespect. You're not allowed to speak to me in a way that is humiliating. That's not on. Um, and you're very clear, it's a very firm voice. I am here to sit and speak with you. I am there for you. I will be there to, I'm your ride or die, right? But do not be disrespectful, and that's where you draw that line. Okay. Um, but the going back to that first point with pushing that boundary. Um for example, um, I've got maybe kids who are very sick very often. Parents tend to allow them more leniency or breaking those rules that they've previously set out of maybe I'm feeling sorry because they're in such a sad state, and so they allow that to happen. Now, the the challenge with doing that is that also becomes a habit, and you're going to have that behavior continually push. That envelope is going to keep opening and open. And then, so at what point do you break? So you as a parent need to know what your limits are, what are your boundaries, um, and set that very clearly um with your kids. So, yeah, you're right. There are times where behavior is you know what? All behavior is it's got a reason. Every single behavior has a reason, but the disrespect is not okay. Um, and being rude is not okay.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, being rude is not okay. And do you think that because they got away with it the first time? Yes, they're like, let me try and see if I can get away with it the second time. Yes. And sometimes parents tend to actually kind of let it get away.
SPEAKER_01And you know when they let it get away is when you're in a crowd full of people and you don't and you're with all your friends and you don't want to be embarrassed, and you don't have to be embarrassed, but you can say, Can I speak to you for a minute? Yeah. And you go step aside. But the moment you say, Oh ha ha ha, you know, Joe is just being really sweet right now, you're allowing that to happen. Um, and so that becomes a venue or avenue for your child to continue doing that. And this is hard because you also don't want to be that parent who's having that challenge with your kids. There's so many parents I know who just want to be on top of their game, yeah. Um, be the best that they can in this world of theirs and put on their own game face, right? Yeah. Um, and so that is uh that part is definitely a challenge.
SPEAKER_00And um with parents having to actually put their game face on, do you think it's pressure from society having to be seen as perfect? Yes, of course.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, yeah. We have to be, right? You have to have it all together, the job, the life. Um, if you are snapping just a tiny little bit, um, it it doesn't look as good on you as a person, right? So you try and keep it together. I'm sure when parents walk in and they look a little bit, you know, you are making judgments automatically in your head, right? And so those are the judgments that allow us to judge others, yeah, right? Um, and then we also feel judged. We are judging ourselves at the same time. So, in to avoid that, we try and make this nice, beautiful flower bed. Everything's okay, life is fine. Yeah, but when you go home, yeah, all hell breaks loose because you've had to save face for a couple hours at this party and now you're really annoyed.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, so save yourself, right? Don't do that, but maybe take that time aside um to have that conversation.
SPEAKER_00Um, and with that happening at home, knowing that you're, you know, having to save face, you know, in the face of public. Yeah. Um, do parents actually, if you if you have a story, do parents actually realize that it tends to affect the child at school?
SPEAKER_01The parents' reactions or the child's behavior? Both. I find that kids do behave differently at school than at home. Okay. Um, and one of the reasons is because there are certain rules at school that there aren't at home. School, you also have a very predictable routine. So when you come in, you put your bag on the hook, you go right, and you've got this very itemized list, and maybe that is displayed on a wall somewhere. So not only is it your practice every day, the timings are also listed there. So your objective for the day is clearly laid out for you. There are no uh surprises. And so kids have a safer space at school because they know what to expect.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, except for when it comes to social time, then you know this is a little bit shady because you've got to get out and make friends and deal with um other social interactions that we we need to strengthen our social skills for. Yeah. Um, at home, you're allowed more leniency, I think. You can come home, throw your stuff down, or it depends on what kind of you know, parents you have at home as well. What are your rules at home? Uh do you have those routines for coming home? Where do you put your stuff? Where do you put your shoes? Okay, something as simple as that. Do you have a shower when you come home or in the morning? Yeah, um, and and those are just routines-based things, but yeah, kids do behave a lot different in home than in school. Um, and in this partnership, I'm not sure if you've ever heard, but parents might come to you and say, Could you talk to Joe about brushing his teeth? Yeah, for example, right? Just as an example. Yeah. And I've never understood that until it clicked that this partnership, this is that parent's way of looking for help. Yeah. It's not that they're incompetent, it's that they're looking for help. And you are the person who is there to help. Take the opportunity, right? You know what? That's such a good idea. I'll speak to everybody about teeth brushing. So he's not by himself, right?
SPEAKER_00He doesn't feel excluded. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01And so that partnership works to rescue you as a parent as well.
SPEAKER_00What's your take on parents actually coming to teachers and asking them or anyone asking them for help on correcting a behavior that they're enabling?
SPEAKER_01Okay, this is a great question. Yeah. Um, and something that happens more often than not. Yes. Um, as you are that partner to rescue the parent, of course, you're gonna jump on board um and you're going to try and help your parent, right? Um, what I usually do with this is set out a plan for that child, right? So if it's something about um attending drama class, okay. Okay. Um they don't want to go to drama class, they don't like acting, they're, you know, it's stage fright, right? Um, the parent might write me a note to say so-and-so can't attend drama because maybe he's unwell, or the parent then makes an excuse for the child, but yet comes to ask me, can you make sure he goes to drama class? So that for me is um is a mixed signal. So that's just an example of this partnership being on the same page. So I will help you talk to that child to make sure they go to drama by discussing all of the perks that drama has, you know, what kinds of things do you love? Um, and then using strengths to do that. But I also need to have a meeting with that parent to say, I have done this, we have done this collectively, we've had a discussion. Uh, drama supports me. Math understanding, and you know, you learn new music and you learn different skills that you could share with other people, and there are stories that you read in drama as well that you know kids could embrace. And so he or she is on board. How can you help me at home with carrying that conversation forward? And then you put that back onto the parent to take some responsibility because you've taken this action in school. So use that partnership for good as well to put some of that responsibility back onto the parent to make sure that that system flows well.
SPEAKER_00But do you think the main reason why a parent is enabling the child's behavior and actually saying, you know what, you don't have to go, and then all of a sudden going to the teacher's like, can you help me? Do you think it's a way of them making sure they don't look like a bad guy to their child? Yes, it is.
SPEAKER_01Um, but you have to walk yourself through that as a parent, right? That's something, but you're not saying that to the parent. I think by you taking the responsibility on, you're fully acknowledging, I have done everything in my power. It's your turn to assist me. Assist me, right? Um, and here's what you can do. And you give them the same strategies you've used. So now you're taking away. I think the reason that parent might enable that child is because they don't know another response. And then they don't want to see that miserable face at the end of the day. You might have to still see that miserable face at the end of the day. Um, but teach them a strategy that works for you in class in order to have them look forward to that thing in school. Are there songs that you could sing together? Right. Sorry, I just Yeah, no, no, but but are there things that them at home could sing? Could they make a dance together? Yeah, if they like to do those things, right? It it depends on what the situation is, but what is something that they could use that you are using in school that works together?
SPEAKER_00Okay. And just roughly, what if you have this conversation with the parent and they say, I don't have the time?
SPEAKER_01I understand. Um, I understand that we are all short of time. Um, but what can you do?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, right?
SPEAKER_01What can you do? Because the concern came from you. Yeah. Right. And it is a requirement that they join these classes. They're very good for them. This is in school, that is, right? Maybe there are other classes that um are not such a requirement. But if you uh share that this is again what you're doing, um, and they can't do the exact same thing. Maybe not everybody has time to dance with their child, right? Um, or sing or make up a song or something like that. But what can you do in your power from this list of things? Or is there something else that you can do? And so you leave it open. It's not my way or the highway, but it's looking at their strengths as parents and how it comes down to giving them the tools, right? Any tool. It doesn't have to be all the 10 that you've set out. Anything that they could use that is different. Yeah, the goal is that is different from the enabling behavior. You know, I'm helping you. So here, this is how you help me help you, you know, from Jerry Maguire.
SPEAKER_00Help me help you. So we've uh tried going through the fact that, you know, sometimes parents tend to ask for help while they do enable a specific behavior. Um, and one of the things that, you know, we've actually seen is that sometimes not seen, I could say more like experienced in maybe at home, is that when a parent is enabling such behaviors, the reaction that they get from the child isn't what they expect sometimes. And tech and gadgets come into that.
SPEAKER_01You mean using tech to solve a problem, a behavior problem, or maybe to take their attention away from something else? Yeah. Uh possibly boredom, or if they're annoying a parent, that is commonly happening.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And how have you seen any effects coming from that?
SPEAKER_01Um, so if that's a choice that you're going to make, um, you obviously have the consequences of that, right? That means that child is becoming more dependent on the tech, and then we find the circles back the other way where parents are then complaining, oh, they're on too much tech. But you've created the situation where you've provided, you bought the phone or you bought the device, you've given it to them. I think this is all parent-oriented, right? Um, we need to unlearn that or work that back. So if we do want to undo or not enable, as we say, um, as let me ask you a question, for example. You learn to write, you write from left to right, correct? Yes. Okay. If I change the rules on you right now in English, not Arabic or, you know, um, and I started to tell you write in English, but the rules have now changed. You're gonna start writing from right to left. How do you think you'd manage that?
SPEAKER_00I would have, I'd be anxious. I'd have a lot of pressure and because I want to perfect what you just told me.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And and there will be a period where you're going to be frustrated with me. Yeah. And why do I need to do this? And all of those questions. It's not English language to be able to do this. And you're gonna go through those, but this is now you're unlearning, and a period of unlearning must follow what you've previously taught.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and so that that's a that's a challenge, and that's something that we have to be strong enough to be able to embrace that if you're now making the choice to not have this, don't play a sometimes game where it's okay to have this and it's not okay to have this, because you yourself are making unclear boundaries and unclear rules. And your kids are gonna fall into this pattern where, well, I can push the envelope today and then get mad another day. And it's just not reliable and emotional space, right? Um, so be warned if that is a step that you're going to take, fully embrace it. Okay. Um and and design so it's not going to be cold turkey where you're cutting all of that tech. But hey, you can have it in periods of time that are this. There is a period of unlearning previous behaviors. So just be prepared for that. Um, it's not going to be your fault completely, but you know, stay solid, stay strong, help them unlearn that behavior and just know that uh you're their main support for this. So I think you got to stay calm as well as you're moving through this shift. But it is totally possible. I probably will never ask you to write in the other direction, but it's just an example to say that's the frustration that you are going to encounter when you change the rules all of a sudden. But you need to be consistent when you do that.
SPEAKER_00So, what are the other or better ways I could say where a parent can actually handle specific behavior issues instead of just throwing a you know technology or a gadget, you know, to their child to help?
SPEAKER_01So a concept we use in school that is very con uh conversational based, um, and something I take into my own practices called restorative practices. Okay. Not sure if you've heard the term, but it has grounds in uh even, you know, the penile system, for example. Um, when criminals had certain behavior, they wanted to create empathy for things that have gone wrong, right? And and yeah, these are stone cold killers, for example, but it comes out in conversation that you're able to build empathy for another person. Now, I'm it's tough to draw a linear example from stone cold killer to your child, but essentially what I'm trying to get at is developing that conversation that is focused on empathy is a great way to start refocusing on behavior. You're gonna have to face that conversation. So don't throw the tech at it. Um, you know, you where we're not going in that area. Um, as a matter of fact, I don't actually know anybody that throws tech at discipline. I think they take the tech away when it comes to discipline, but let's take the tech completely out of the equation and focus on the conversation. So restorative practices looks at um what happened exactly.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Right? Where did these things go wrong? What were you feeling at the time this happened? Um, and then you explain from your own perspective as well, because that's the empathy building, isn't it? You're trying to create that conversation that's not one-sided where you're asking, you're also sharing. Um, and you're not looking for your child to react based on your emotions because then that's not teaching anybody anything. That's called guilt. And we don't want a guilt parent either. Um, but it's developing empathy through conversation. And that's the way I would redirect the discipline.
SPEAKER_02Okay.
SPEAKER_01And even if you're providing a consequence, you can do that in a calm way. You don't have to flip out and be angry in order to deliver a consequence. You can deliver it in a calm way, you know what? This was actually uh not acceptable. Um, the way that you've treated me or whomever in the house at the time that this thing had happened. Um, this is, you know, and they that person would explain the way they feel because you can't do that. Um when you have that conversation with everybody involved, you do end up building uh a level of understanding and eventually unlearning once you come to realize what's happened. Is that what you have in your book? So my book focuses on uh it's called the Happy Heart, Happy Mind Handbook, and it focuses on mindfulness. And yes, it's in uh conversation, but it's also about understanding uh yourself. It's got some stickers in there. Um, I feel before we start understanding other people, we must know who we are as human beings, right? And as we're developing a self-concept, it's so important for us to know what our own values are. Um are we taught to love and forgive and you know be empathetic ourselves before we start requesting that from other people? And so the book is a handbook that just walks you through uh how you can do that uh and be mindful in how you live your life. And so it's for children. Um, it is tough for parents to navigate as well. We've had um a psychology uh company pick this up. Mind Matters has picked this up. Uh Miss Nadia Ahmed had uh used this for the kids. So we were very happy to see that uh used. Um, but yeah, the kids will have some time to sit and process their emotions, uh, speak about it with parents, or to keep it to themselves. That's also okay. It's just the time that they take to do it uh that's helpful.
SPEAKER_00It's it's called the happy heart, happy mind. The happy heart, happy mind handbook.
SPEAKER_01I think everyone needs a handbook. Yes. So adults had asked to use this as well, and you could totally use it because it's easily readable. You can adapt it to yourself. Yeah, um, you can draw, you can write. Um, you may not use the stickers as well, yeah. Um, but the you can definitely use this. I'd use the stickers. Yep.
SPEAKER_00I'd definitely use the stickers. Well, would you sticker first? A lot of things. I'd be like, ooh, stickers. Hey, we some adults love stickers. True. It's true. Yeah. So your book is called The Happy Heart, Happy Mind Handbook. For those who are interested in the book and the brain dump, you can find the link in the description below. So I went through your handbook a bit and I noticed that it has a message not just for, you know, children. It has a message for parents too.
SPEAKER_01How does that work? There are times where kids might require an explanation for some of the things that they're doing or to understand what the concept of mindfulness actually means. So it addresses uh the parents as well in that, you know, what do they need to do to help support their kids? Could be that they need to provide some time uh for them to do that without being in a hurry, um, finding a place to work as well that's peaceful and serene, um, that has no distractions. Yeah. Um, and it's so it just provides a message for the parent and how they can support the development of mindfulness and this practice within their children.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, the first page, it has, I think it starts as dear grown-up.
SPEAKER_01Yes. So we do say dear grown up, and it's simply because you may not be working with a parent, right? It could be an aunt, an uncle, um, a foster parent as well. So whomever you're trusting, the counselor, right? Um, a teacher. So whomever you're working with this on, uh, that's the person that's going to support you. So you'll notice it doesn't say dear parent, but it addresses the grown-up who might be more capable of doing that.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Um, and it doesn't have to be the parent. Sometimes aunts and uncles are the best resources to have.
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Who might, you know, you go over to your aunts or grandmother's house, for example, right? Um, and you sit down with them to work through these things, and that's your safe space.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00And I can also, I think I could to the person using this book. I love how it's it's sections like it has something that says breathe. Yes. We do need to remember to just breathe. Take a break. In everything we do. Yes. Yeah. That is so cool.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Take a moment, find a nice place to sit, breathe, all of these opportunities in. Uh, celebrate your own growth because as you're working through, uh, there might be some questions that you find it difficult to answer. For example, um, kids don't have necessarily great relationships with everyone. Um, so if somebody does something bad to you, how often do you hear a child say, I'm never gonna forgive you, right? Or this person is not my friend. So one of the questions is on forgiveness. What do you do to work past those differences? And it's a personal reflection, right? And you know, sometimes you're not ready to answer that question. And so you could move on and maybe come back to that at a later time, but it does leave it open for all of that reflection.
SPEAKER_00And I think I could see something that says even perfection needs time for growth and practice. Yes. Okay. I love this, and I know it has stickers, it has stickers. That's plus point. Plus point for me.
SPEAKER_01For you.
SPEAKER_00Right? And some self-affirmation. Self-affirmation is very important. Yeah, it's very important, not just for kids, for adults too.
SPEAKER_01For us as well. We tend to forget that we need that sometimes. Differ different messaging though. So hopefully you're not an adult saying I am responsible, but maybe you're an adult saying I'm able to handle hard things, right? Because parenting is very hard, let's face that. Yeah, um, there's no rule book that comes with your kids. No, right? We'd love to think that and you make it up as you go. Um, but bank on the resources around you, those parents, those teachers, uh, people in religious organizations whom you trust very much, there is always somebody there who's willing to support.
SPEAKER_00If you're a child, let's say, example, you know, what would you like grown-ups to know from your point of view or perspective?
SPEAKER_01I think when grown-ups ask children questions, they expect kids to answer the same way an adult does. But kids don't process information the same way as an adult does, nor do they have the language skills to be able to produce the answers we require. Not just that, there is an element of fear, right? If you say the wrong thing, um, what will happen, right? And and hopefully by now we're in we're in a space where kids are not worried about their safety if they answer the wrong thing, but they could be worried about consequences if they answer the wrong question. Um, and so the ad the thing I would ask for if I was a child is provide me a safe space to be, provide me a safe space to respond, provide me a safe space to express what I'm feeling. I may not know yet what I'm feeling, but I require some space around me that allows me to do that. Um, for example, um, I remember when I was very young, and this was probably a strategy my old teachers used to news a long time ago. So we're not gonna dial back how many years that is, but it was a very long time ago. Um, and I also grew up on a different continent. And at that time, kids would be beaten in school, right? Where I'm from. Right now, you don't see this in international school. Um, but they would be pressurized. Why did you do this? That question of why did this happen? Why did this happen? And you're like, okay, if I answer the wrong way, one, I'm definitely gonna be spanked. Yeah, two, my mother's gonna know about it. I'm gonna be spanked again. Um, and then you know, they're never gonna live this time. And you don't have an answer for this because you don't know why. Um, and so your space becomes unsafe. But if you give me a little bit of room to just think about it a second, just to answer and in a calm way, um, that that would be my thing. That's my ask for if I would be a child, is give me a safe space to express myself. But and I think we all respond from a place of our own childhood trauma when we when we look at these things is you know, when when we look back at our own situation, it so changes how we treat our kids. And hey, you know, when we're giving our kids tech, it's probably because this is something we never had when we were growing up. And so you're this is like a totally different question, but maybe it can remerge with something else. Um, yeah, you're giving you think you're giving your kids opportunity. Yeah, you're giving your kids some kind of slavery because you're giving them something that is uh you think is an opportunity, but it's something that could probably be worse for them in the long run.
SPEAKER_00Exactly, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, we we tend to respond from a place of trauma.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, that is true. And I think, and and maybe because we have been, we have responded from a place of trauma. Have you seen a bigger change on how you raise your kids now?
SPEAKER_01I think I try and give a level of understanding and space. We're not all perfect, so I know I do get upset. Um, but I try and choose the way I respond when I'm upset. And more often than not, when bad decisions are made, I find myself locking myself in a room, um, literally like closing the door, uh, freaking out inside that room, or you know, maybe waiting for my my husband to come home and we both go lock ourselves in the room. We get mad together, um, and then we come out with a confront to say, huh. So X, Y, Z has happened. Now you've had some time to digest. Um, and that's how my response has changed when it comes to parenting.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And with what let's say your inner child would also want adults to know. That would be one of them.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, I would say that's creating a space that is safe for me to respond, for me to speak, uh, for me to share the things that I love deeply, the things I don't like at all. Um, you know, vegetables are a conversation we have all the time. Kids hate vegetables, right? Now, how do you say I'm gonna create a space for you to tell me you hate your vegetables? Exactly. I might find a way to manipulate you into eating those vegetables. Yes. Um but but it is it's an ask. But by by doing that, I am hearing you. I'm creating that space for you, but I know that you need those vegetables, right? Yeah. So it's it's a game of this tennis ball going back and forth and trying to understand one another.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. What experience has changed your perspective of how adults should engage with children?
SPEAKER_01Our experiences as children shape the way we parent, the way we work with other people, the way we converse, right? The way we live our own lives. And it could be that we are reacting from places of fear, from trauma, um, and coming to a space where we have to unlearn certain behavior, right? Um, I do remember a time where I was uh beaten in class with a cane, one of these long sticks that, yeah. And so that was feared in our class. But the reason was because I couldn't write a letter. This is my own memory. And I know there's new research that shows kids' memories are sometimes changed and manipulated as they are growing up, but this was from my memory. Now, if I look at education today, it's obviously not a practice that we would uh take into consideration. Rather, now we're looking at neurodivergence. And could there be other issues that plague and affect our children that we would be able to help them sort out? So that has shifted from history uh moving into current day. So this is something that I have learned really shaped my practices. My responses to some of the things that children don't do well or do very well uh depend on trying to understand, you know, personalities and neurodiversity is something new in the conversation, relatively um as. Old educators try and bring practices that are more friendly.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for joining our episode today. If you found this conversation valuable, don't forget to share your thoughts down below in the comments and share with a loved one or anyone who you think needs to hear this. And if you're interested in learning more information about the brain dump or the handbook, please feel free to check the description or the show notes from wherever you're listening this to. And don't forget to like, subscribe, and hit that notification bell. Until next time, keep blooming!