The Cloud & The Fire (Numbers 9)

Jordan and Zane talk about the Israelites following the cloud and fire of God's presence.

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SPEAKER_02 0:06

Hey everybody. Welcome to uh joining me and Jordan on one of our weekly walks. Jordan basically never stops walking, so 75% of all clear path church planning happens on a walk. And uh we're about to go on another one, and we're gonna take you with us. But we're gonna start out here by reading from Numbers 9, starting in verse 15. The holy tent was set up. It was the tent where the tablets of the covenant law were kept. On the day it was set up, the cloud covered it. From evening until morning, the cloud above the tent looked like fire. That's what continued to happen. The cloud covered the tent. At night, the cloud looked like fire. When the cloud lifted from its place above the tent, the Israelites started out. Where the cloud settled, the Israelites camped. When the Lord gave the command, the Israelites started out, and when he gave the command, they camped. As long as the cloud stayed above the holy tent, they remained in camp. Sometimes the cloud remained above the tent for a long time. Then the Israelites obeyed the Lord's order. They did not start out. Sometimes the cloud was above the tent for only a few days. When the Lord would give the command, they would camp, and when he would give the command, they would start out. Sometimes the cloud stayed only from evening until morning. When it lifted in the morning, they started out. It didn't matter whether it was day or night. When the cloud lifted, the people started out. It didn't matter whether the cloud stayed above the holy tent for two days, or a month, or a year. The Israelites would remain in camp. They wouldn't start out, but when the cloud lifted, they would start out.

SPEAKER_00 1:50

Yeah, I um I like I like this passage. It it was definitely talked about in church circles that I grew up in. I remember even in Bible college, people using the very clever uh I I don't follow the crowd, I follow the cloud. I don't know if you ever heard that one.

SPEAKER_01 2:11

But uh yeah, I vaguely remember that one. I didn't go to Bible college like you.

SPEAKER_00 2:15

So that was a very uh that was very common in our our culture. But to me, I think it's just this picture that there are these moments and seasons and times where our obedience, our following of the Lord is is quite particular. And obviously it was this wasn't like the universal mandate for Israel, Israel's way of life for all of their history, but it was definitely a a season that they were were mandated to follow God in such a particular way.

SPEAKER_02 2:57

That's true. And you know, obviously, the easiest parallel in our lives, of course, is the Holy Spirit, and that we get the opportunity to follow the Holy Spirit. And sometimes I do find that the Holy Spirit is leading me in really particular, obvious ways, sometimes less obvious to me. Although I think a lot of times when it's less obvious, it's probably because I'm not paying attention or not asking him questions.

SPEAKER_00 3:25

Yeah. Well, I I do think that there is like you preach this Sunday, you have a you have a green light to do godly things. And so I do think that there is this truth that that um, you know, the you know, the the command in the in the promised land was go and I will be with you, you know, and that and at the end of Matthew 28, uh, my presence will be with you. And so I do think that like we sort of have more of our the paths available to us that we're to follow in godliness. And so the spirit's empowered us. Um may maybe we already have a lot of like what the mandate is as opposed to needing some new direction like the cloud or the or the or the fire each day.

SPEAKER_02 4:13

Yeah, that's definitely true. I think that I think that there are many things that God has told us to do, many things that He um many things that He blesses even as we choose to do them when He didn't tell us do this or do that. But you know, I think that one of the things that interests me about this passage is the cloud and the fire. It's kind of it signifies some things about God that I have long been discovering, which is that God both reveals Himself and in some ways hides himself. I mean, like as if we don't get to know everything about him. And I think that's interesting with that symbolism of God, you know, letting people see his presence in a cloud or in fire. It's kind of this uh that there's obviously a lot of symbolism hidden within those things, but they're also just really mysterious beyond whatever they could mean to us. It's like there's God's presence hanging there in the sky. You know, I've heard theologians say maybe there's a point to this, like that the cloud maybe even shielded them from the sun, which could be harmful when you're wandering the desert for 40 years. Um, so like there could be some practical uh application to it. But that being said, I kind of think it's also just God being a great mystery.

SPEAKER_00 5:40

Yeah. Well, I I think too, like to put into context Israel, these are people who have been living in in some form of slavery for hundreds of years. And, you know, when people live in slavery anthropologically, they just they act in certain they act in certain ways and they um certain things happen to the culture. And so like we see how quick they are to we see how quick they they are to turn away to this idol. And so God is like teaching them graciously to follow him. And this is sort of this we call it temporary way that he he leads them by his presence. And I I do think that there are like analogous, in an analogous way, there are seasons in my life where God needs to lead me in in ways that are much more like I have to wait on him to speak speak things to me and or or to lead me forward. And so um, yeah, I think it can be analogous to different parts of our life where there are times where we seem to have like God's blessing and he's going with us in the things that we're doing, and then other times, um maybe even earlier in our spiritual development where we have to have to follow in a in a more uh particular sort of way.

SPEAKER_02 7:08

Yeah, and I think that obviously the most important piece of this is when God does reveal himself to you in some way that you follow immediately and wholeheartedly. Like the people there were saying, you know, no matter if it was day or night, if the cloud or the fire started to move, then they had to move, like immediately, no waiting. They just you get up and go at the moment God tells you to do something. And you know, I've long I've long been intrigued by what we see here in this passage of manifest presence or God having some kind of localized presence. Because the more we think about God, it's not that we it's not that we think that God is not other places when he manifests himself in one place, but it's that he is doing a particular work in a particular people in a particular place and um acting in such a way as to let people be aware of him. And I don't know what what all I have to say about that, but I can say that it's always something that I've wanted to be around and be part of.

SPEAKER_00 8:25

Yeah. I and I I think I've always been trying to work out what does it mean to be led by the Spirit. Yeah. And and you know, like one example I could give from my own life is I knew very clearly that the Lord told me, like with the mission stuff in our community, I knew very clearly he told me to start walking in our community. It was like expand your neighboring. We I have neighbors on my street that I walk by, and I'm I've met many or most of them. Um, and I felt like the Lord just like walk. And as we began to walk through the neighborhood, we saw this motel that we felt like God like opened up the door to. We saw apartments that the Lord opened up the door to, and like the the per the only particular calling was to was to walk um and to follow him. But as it as it went, uh, you know, things like like the gospel had to become particular in those places. Like there's your general neighbor that God might be leading you to, you know, like God's leading us to love the people near us. But then once you meet those people, well, there is a particular expression of his presence to those people. Um, so I think I do think to your point, we're always like both in the in following the Lord and in and in living a Christian life, we're both like following truth that we generally know to be true and having to be obedient with specific and particular words of God for particular situations. And so I do love the story because it just brings that back to my heart, that dependence upon Him.

SPEAKER_02 10:00

Yeah, I mean, even when Jesus sent the disciples out, you know, He gave them instruction, something along the lines of don't worry about what you will say in whenever the the moments come up that you need to have the right thing to say, because I'll give you those words. And in a similar way to what you were saying, I remember, I remember when my kids were a little younger that I wanted to do to do ministry and I wanted to hang out with my kids, and so God did give me a specific way to thing to do for a while. He just said, Hey, start taking your kids to the park and and participate in whatever comes up, you know? So I'd go to the park and I'd be swinging my kids, and there'd be a dad swinging his kids next to us, and we'd start talking a little bit, and we'd have enough conversation that the dad might tell me something that was going on in their life. And whenever that happened, you know, a lot of times God would in that moment give me a word for them, some encouragement, even a prophetic word or um or a prayer for them. And so it was always a chance for God to speak, for God to do a miracle, but it had to come from like the simple obedience of, okay, God told me to start taking my kids to parks, you know?

SPEAKER_00 11:18

Yes. No, I like I like that example. I I think that the I I think the two truths we're sort of going back and forth here on is that um there's a there can be this tendency for people to over sort of emphasize needing the cloud or the fire to lead them. Yeah. And then there can be this tendency to under-emphasize the need to be led, to be led by God in really particular things. And you know, it it's very easy to dismiss either side that like we know what we're called to do, let's just do it, or we need to get his particular um call, his the what the way he's revealing his presence at a moment.

SPEAKER_02 12:11

And I think that yeah, yeah, and you know, I think that one of the most important things that I hear even whenever I talk to people who are trying to hear God, is I think that every day we should pursue God's presence and that we should ask him questions and try to listen. And then to some degree, we can't be responsible for our own hearing.

SPEAKER_00 12:35

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 12:36

Certainly we're not responsible for him speaking. And so as long as we're being diligent and humble and open to listen to God and like try to follow his presence, then I think from that point on that we just do what we feel is right, that we do what we think God would have us do to the best of our ability. And you know, we're human and we're gonna probably miss it a little bit here and there. But I mean, that's what God's mercy and grace are there to cover is that I'm not perfect and he is, and that he can, he will uh, I believe that he'll accomplish his purposes in our lives if we are just submitted and trying to live by his presence, trying to hear his voice and follow it.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

Yes, I I want to follow up with uh an encouragement that fits in line with what you taught this Sunday. You have permission, you have a green light to do godly things. Like I I would say to those that you read a text like this and you feel highly convinced that you need to not make any moves forward um until you have some specific leading of the Lord. Like, I would say that, hey, in the scripture, this is a this is a a one-time thing that God does with Israel that is analogous to what we have today in our leading of spirit, but this is a this is a one-time moment. And the and the manifestation, the cloud of the fire, was was just as clear in the staying as it was in the going. And last I checked, I don't have a fire cloud above my house. And so I don't have God. That'd be cool. I I I feel like I have permission. I don't I I I feel like I don't have the Lord um, you know, withholding me from moving forward in godly things in life. Um, if if he did send a cloud over my house, I might think that I should stay right there until something shifts. But but but you know, until then, I'm gonna keep waking up every day seeking the Lord, trying to preach the gospel, trying to go forward in the things that I do believe are godly and led by his spirit.

SPEAKER_02 14:51

Yeah, exactly. Well, I'll pray us out. Lord, I just thank you that you do want to lead us, that you have given us your presence. God, that we are not alone, that we do not have to try and figure out life alone, that you are our guide, that you are our comforter, but that you've also empowered us to be carriers of your kingdom and to be uh co-caretakers, co-laborers with you in this world. And so I pray that you would give us pure hearts and pure minds, that we would think and feel like you think and feel. And God, that we would be changed to the point that even our uh even our nature, even our inclinations are to do what you would do. But God, we also ask you for a special outpouring of your communication, God. I believe that you're always speaking, but I believe that um that we do struggle to hear a lot of times. And a lot of times that's because of ourselves, our sin, our unwillingness to listen, our unwillingness to be patient. Um but I think there's a there are a lot of reasons for that, God. So I just pray that you would open our ears and that we would hear you clearly and that your power would go with us and that we would see the miraculous workings of your kingdom, that it would come here on earth as it is in heaven. So, Lord, please be with us and teach us to follow you in spirit and in truth. Amen.

SPEAKER_00 16:27

Amen.

SPEAKER_02 16:30

Love it.

SPEAKER_00 16:31

Signing off.

SPEAKER_02 16:32

Love all of you. Fare thee well.