SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hello and welcome to the Beyond Podcast. I'm Steven. James here. And today, James, we're going to be free-forming it. We're going to uh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 0:10

Do something light up a bit. Hey. Great minds. Great minds. I want to talk about physical fitness.

SPEAKER_01 0:18

Okay. Yeah. Why, you know, physical fitness. What's where you point that out? You're right. You're right. Sorry. I do that often. I do it often. It's not loaded. You have a passion. I'll call it a passion for physical fitness. And I've known you a long time. And you've always been a fairly fit guy, but within the past decade, a little bit more than a decade, it has been a um, it has been a very serious thing for you and a passion. Um and I want you to share why.

SPEAKER_00 1:01

So to do that, I've got to tell a story. Okay. And this is a very deep and personal story for me. Oh, wow. Okay. Okay. I didn't know we were going. Yep, we're I thought we were gonna keep this light, but I've got to share the story. So go ahead. It it was about probably 13 years ago. Uh, like you said, I've always most of my life I've stayed pretty fit and been in good shape. But in my early 30s, I um I just let my fitness go for longer than I would have liked to admit. And I was traveling a lot, trying to build a career, trying to um do the things needed to provide for my family, build a lot, all that kind of stuff, right? So I was I was focused elsewhere, and I just let myself go. Eating whatever I wanted, traveling all the time, eating crap, not working out. And one summer, uh Mara was like probably less than two years old, our daughter. Uh, we were out on the lake with my bride. So it was Jennifer and I and Mara. We're in the boat. I'm driving the boat. Just cruising. Cruising, man, enjoying the day. You know, I ain't I'm not hurting anybody. No, you hurt nothing bad. Yeah. And I got in the passenger seat, there's Jennifer over there. She's got Mara in her lap. Mara's like, you know, less than two. She's got one of those big life jackets on that, you know, just suppresses everything up like this, and got her little sun hat on, and she's just doing this number right here, just kind of cruising along, having a blast. Yeah. Sun's out. I'm like, I'm gonna let I'm gonna let the old uh I'm gonna let the old chest flex a little bit. Took off my shirt.

SPEAKER_01 2:53

Here we go.

SPEAKER_00 2:54

Baywatch style boats dry, like the boat is moving, right? Moving stand up. Wow. Oh, yeah, in motion, wind blown. Take off the shirt. Yeah, give me a little flex up top, you know? Yeah, ball that sucker up, send it to the back of the boat, sit back down, boom, boom, like that. Yeah, you know what I'm saying? The vibe, dude, you are feeling it. I was feeling it, and my sweet wife looks over at me and she says, You've got man boobs. Oh no, dude. Oh no, you want to talk about hero to zero in 0.2 seconds? Bam. She literally looked at me and said, You have man boobs. And there are a few moments in my life where time stands still, everything comes into focus, and that was one of those moments where I realized if I am going to be the person that I want to be for my wife, who by the way, is like less than two years out from having a baby and sitting in the passenger seat looking amazing. And I'm over here in the driver's seat and I've got man boobs. That is unsat.

SPEAKER_01 4:15

Did you put your shirt back on?

SPEAKER_00 4:17

Oh, dude, I put, I mean, I crawled up, I crawled up under the dash of the boat, and I'm driving the boat from under the dash because I don't I don't want to be looked at. Yeah. And so in that moment, I decide. I mean, I kid you not, I remember making a conscious decision that says, no moss. I will not be the man boob guy. I launched a full force attack on man boobs, and I've never looked back. And I mean, I've had seasons where I've been more fit than others, training for races, getting burned out, taking some time off, all that kind of stuff. But in general, I have kept a high fitness level. I have um I've tried to engage and enlist others on that journey with me. I'm kind of always on the hunt for friends that have man boobs so I can wage war against their man boobs. And that's full frontal assault. Literally, literally, yeah, yeah. Full frontal assault. So that's that's half of it. The other half, and honestly, the more meaningful half is growing up. Uh, my father was I had the best dad man. He's he was amazing, uh, but he was not physically fit, had a lot of injuries, struggled with overconsumption of food. Um, and he just he was never fit, and it greatly limited the experiences that we had together and that he had. And I grew up watching that, and so the combination of that as a caution and knowing that I could easily take that path personally, and the wake-up call of Jennifer looking at me and saying, dude, you've got man boobs. Um, those two things collide into my passion for to stay fit.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Then it was on.

SPEAKER_00 6:19

Yep.

SPEAKER_01 6:21

And you've probably resisted the urge at some point to tell me that I've had man boobs.

SPEAKER_00 6:28

Well, I can neither confirm nor deny that, but I can say that I have seen a significant reduction in your um non-existent or existent man boobs over the last couple years as you've gotten serious about your fitness, which in all seriousness, man, has been awesome to watch.

SPEAKER_01 6:47

Well, I appreciate that.

SPEAKER_00 6:49

When we first reconnected after a season of not seeing each other, um you you were not physically fit. No. And um and over the last two years, I've watched you prioritize your fitness, I've watched you um engage in different you're not you're not gonna go on a long run with me. You don't run. But through rucking, climbing, kettlebells, all sorts of stuff, I've just seen you take seriously your physical fitness, and I can I can see the difference, man. Yeah, it's awesome.

SPEAKER_01 7:23

I I um I have I've never been overweight, I don't think technically, and I I was out of shape um for a few years before coming on board here, but I had started mountain biking.

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:41

I started mountain biking this was six or seven years ago, yeah, and realized just how out of shape I was. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 7:48

Well, and the reality is mountain biking is one of those things. Like if you notice, you go to the trail and you will frequently see a guy with big calves, a $6,000 bike, and a beer gut.

SPEAKER_01 8:02

And he'll smoke you.

SPEAKER_00 8:03

And he'll smoke you, but he'll keep that beer gut.

SPEAKER_01 8:05

That's right. That is so interesting to me.

SPEAKER_00 8:07

Yeah, and that and that's the nature of mountain biking in terms of uh your the cardio output for mountain biking is um actually more conducive, depending on how you ride. So there's there's certainly um, there's certainly exceptions to this. But generally speaking, most people that are out on the trail on a weekend and they're riding, the cardio output and the the way you're exercising on that bike is more conducive to building muscle, actually, than it is to strengthening your cardio. Because you're operating, you're in zone three, zone four, hammering up that hill. Yeah, bam, bam, bam, bam, just hammering. And then you get to the top, stop, take a rest, chat with the boys a bit, heart rate comes down, and then you plummet downhill, and then you're just coasting, baby. You're just riding it out. And then what do you do? Another hill. Crank, crank, crank, crank, crank back up, right? Yeah. And so if you take that, your your heart rate is coming up, it's spiking, and then it's dropping down, coming up, spiking, dropping down, versus a like on a road bike, you don't see as many road bikers with big calves and big guts. They're still riding a $6,000 bike, but that road bike, you're it's a steady, yeah, it's a steady cadence, rhythm, rhythmic turning of that zone two, zone three cardio. You're staying in that spot, you're burning fat, you're building muscle, but it's more of strengthening toning muscle than building volume of muscle. And so that's that's that's the quick explanation of why that is. Thank you, Doctor. Yeah, you're welcome.

SPEAKER_01 9:49

I I noticed when I first started mountain biking that that was my uh that's how I rode, right? Really hard uphill, coasting downhill. Now though, and this started maybe two years ago. Well, probably when I came on board. I'm throwing things at you. Um, I try to stay in zone two as much as I can to keep a cadence. A, because I go faster, right? Because I'm not going, going and then breaking really hard and then going, going, breaking really hard. I try to keep a good cadence so I go faster and uh I want that, I want that endurance. Yeah, because my fitness goals have changed from when I was in my early 20s because I lifted for a while, like heavy lifting. Um, and that was cool for a couple of years, but now my goals are completely different. I want longevity, I want longevity in life. I want to be able to, when I am 60, 65 years old, I want to be able to do some stuff. Yeah. I see guys at the climbing gym that are that old. That's a good and they're smoking these climbs. Yep. I want that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:58

Well, we just one of the things that we I just wrapped up literally last week, and we do a couple of these a year. We do them with a lot of our a lot of our trek cohorts as well. Uh, this one wasn't with a trek cohort, but I will host something called the Thousand Push-Up Challenge, where we will, it's a six-week training plan and you start wherever your baseline is. And the way I see it, and I'm not sure this, I think this actually proved out maybe to not be true this time, but generally speaking, if you can do 10 uninterrupted push-ups, then you're physically capable of starting the plan. And it's a six-week training plan that builds up to doing a thousand push-ups in a day. And so it's not, it's not one set of a thousand uninterrupted push-ups, but it's a thousand push-ups in a day. And we just had a group of 43 people, I think, that went through it. And I think of the 43, about 30 uh ended up doing good thousand push-ups in a day. And man, it was so awesome to watch because we'll do things throughout the the training plan where we will set, we'll do a one-minute max rep. So, like on day one, you do a one-minute max rep and you record and you post that number. And I mean, there's numbers that range from in the 40s to like nine or 11 or 12. Like it's a vast, it's a vast range of where people are when they start. Yeah. And then after three weeks, you do you put you do another one-minute max max rep and you post that. And you can see like a lot of people's max reps have doubled over the course of three weeks. And it is an intense training plan. Like, you're you're doing a lot of push-ups. I think at the end of the plan, you've done close to 7,000 push-ups. And then uh and then it'll be on week six, just before you do your thousand push-up challenge, like a day before you do a one-minute max rep. And you see people's one-minute max reps, and it's like 46, 54, 63, like just awesome numbers of push-ups to be able to hammer out in a minute. Yeah. And uh, and then you see people who who set a lofty goal, worked hard, trained every day, even when it wasn't fun, even when they didn't want to, and then they accomplished their goal of doing a thousand push-ups in a day. And so I love doing stuff like that. I love helping other people find success in physical fitness. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:41

Uh you inspired me to do the Appalachian Trail when I was younger. You were one of the reasons I did it. Um, so James, when you were right out of high school, you and a mutual friend of ours, Steven, hiked the Appalachian Trail. Yep. You were 18, 19? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. And um, I started backpacking and climbing in probably eighth or ninth grade. Uh, we were we first started we do it with the youth group and we did it with different groups, but then we started doing it on our own because we just really liked it. And I had heard something about the Appalachian Trail, and I was like, what is that? And I ended up uh reading about it, and it was this something inside me started to get stoked. My stoke was go was getting going, you're getting fired up, yeah. And then um, I don't think I knew you had hiked it. No, I guess I I learned because we met, I was probably 16 or 17 when we met. Um, and you were as you are very uh significantly older than me. Um barely older. Okay. And I think you told me you hiked the Appalachian Trail, and then I and I was like, oh, and then the the trail just kept getting closer to me. Like it was calling me. Everything in my life was lining up to get me to do it. Uh and I graduated high school and worked for a couple of years, saved the money and did it. And you and Steven came to visit me and my friend, our friend Drew, uh, when we started it. Yeah. Um, and that was kind of the beginning of endurance stuff. So you have inspired me in many different times and places to do fitness things.

SPEAKER_00 15:39

Well, I appreciate that, man. Yeah, and and I think as it pertains to hiking and backpacking, the uh the student has become the instructor now. Um I as a matter of fact, I'll tell you what, I'll tell you what we'll do, Big Steve. Okay, what wait, what are we gonna do? I'm gonna I'm gonna issue a challenge to our audience. Okay, if if you think that you can outhike Big Steve, sign up for one of our treks, pay the fee to come train with us, we will create the opportunity for you to go head to head with Big Steve. And if you can out-hike him, we will refund your payment. I'm down. You down with that? Yeah, because and and we'll do it, we'll do it in three different categories. We'll combine three criteria, right? Number one will be um speed, weight, and distance. Yeah. All right, so you've got to be able to hike farther, faster, carrying more weight. And if you can do that, you can beat Big Steve, we will refund your tuition to train with us.

SPEAKER_01 16:54

Hey, that's great. I'm down for it. Because you, my friend, you my friend, challenge accepted, can hike with the best of them. I love a good hike. You know, though, I am not I don't know if this can be controversial. I'm not a huge fan of day hikes.

SPEAKER_00 17:12

Yeah, I'm not either. As a matter of fact, I I'm I'm more of a fan of it now that I have kids because it's something to go do quick with the kids that isn't in front of a screen. Okay. Um, but I I I agree with you. It was it was kind of an area of contention in our marriage for years.

SPEAKER_01 17:29

Be okay, because Jennifer wanted to go on day hikes and you were just like, I'm not interested.

SPEAKER_00 17:34

It just doesn't feel worth it to me. That's exactly how it feels like I'm gonna I'm gonna like pack a pack, drive to a trail two or three hours away, and hike for a few hours and then get back in the car and drive home. No, no, no, no, no.

SPEAKER_01 17:51

No, yeah, that's I that it I that it doesn't feel worth it. And I almost I would rather go on a two-week backpacking trip than like a two-day backpacking trip.

SPEAKER_00 18:04

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm with you on that. I think I think through hiking long distance backpacking ruins you on day hikes. I think you're right. I think it does. Um before we go on, what was your trail name? My trail name was TurboLax. Why is that? It's one of those dual meaning names. Okay. You know, it's like a name can have two meanings. Um I get I know what that means. Yep. That's I know what that's that's what it is. Okay, I got it, got it, got it. Yep, dual meaning name. We don't have to talk about it. So, so especially back when I hiked the Appalachian Trail, because this is like prehistoric times, right? There weren't there weren't cell phones that you're carrying with you or anything like that. And um, and let's just say that backpacking cuisine has come a long way over the last 30 years, 25 years. Um, and so when I started, like literally, we were carrying like Lipton noodles, like cup of soup type noodles and macaroni and cheese, uh, without milk or butter. Like we're it was very basic, lots of peanut butter, uh, very basic cuisine options. And I um I quickly developed an overhydrated um digestive issue, which you know manifested itself into explosive diarrhea. And if you've ever seen the the good old movie, the classic movie Dumb and Dumber, there's a scene where Harry puts uh Turbolax or Lloyd puts turbox in Harry's drink and he has explosive diarrhea. And I would go to the privy, which is the outhouse, and uh I came back and they're like, dude, you're like turbo lax, and it stuck. That was my that was my trail name. Were you upset about getting that trail name? Nah, man, I'm not. I'm listening. I'm secure in who I am, yeah. And uh I'm gonna You didn't care. I didn't love it, which is why I came up with the second meaning. Remember, I said it's dual purpose name. The second name is literally like turbo lax. I hike fast and I relax hard. Yeah. And so I would I I hike pretty quick. So I would usually, when we headed out in the morning, I would usually get finished before everybody else. Yeah. And so I was I was turbo. And then when it by the time everybody else got to the shelter, you just relax. Bro, I'm chill, I've got stuff set up, I got my book out, feet up, yeah, enjoying, enjoying the evening sun. Listen, and turbo lax. There you go. There you go. So there it is. That's the one I I kind of embraced more fully. But what what was your trail name? Mr. Easy. Oh, I like that. Mr. Easy that that kind of fits.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

Mr. Easy, yeah. Mr. Easy. Well, yeah, I know it. Came from people saying I made hiking look easy. Yeah. So if you can be good at hiking, I'm good at hiking.

SPEAKER_00 21:34

Yeah. You do make it look easy.

SPEAKER_01 21:36

So these legs just go.

SPEAKER_00 21:38

Yeah, when you have uh five and a half feet of leg under you. Yeah, that's true. It's uh that's true, it's an asset. It is an asset hiking. Not so much when it comes to flying in an airplane. No, it sucks. Yep. Um, but or doing squats or bouldering.

SPEAKER_01 22:02

But for hiking, it's great. It's an asset. Yeah, it's great. Speaking of squats um and exercises such as that, what are you what is your routine right now? Because I feel like you, I don't ever you know exactly what you're doing. Um, and maybe it depends on if you're training for something. It does. But what are you doing right now? So right your frequency.

SPEAKER_00 22:28

Yeah. So right now I am not training for any kind of long endurance event. Uh last year, Jennifer and I did a couple with some friends, did a couple of tactical games competitions, which is kind of like a combination of CrossFit and precision, precision shooting, pistol and rifle. And we loved them. And so I am more training for that right now. So that is far more functional fitness in nature. So uh push-ups, pull-ups, ab workouts, lunges, squats, and a lot of sandbag work, um, deadlift work, um, moving heavy things around is what I'm doing most of now, which is kind of contrary to the way I have typically been training the last several years, which has been far more long distance endurance focused, right? Doing ultra marathons, ultra bike races, that sort of thing. But you want to be lighter, you want to be lighter. Uh, it's still good to have a base of strength. I'm I'm a huge proponent of that. Now, I'm not going out and I'm not winning an ultra marathon, right? And so you don't see too many guys that are 6'3, 210, 215 that are winning ultras. Um, but the I love carrying some muscle around. Um, and I'm it's more important to me that I am functionally strong and fit and able to perform over a variety of different environments than that I'm the fastest guy on the trail. And so for that reason, I I don't I don't mind having weight. I don't mind uh Nick Baer uses the term hybrid athlete, and I love that because that's that's kind of my my pursuit is to be a hybrid athlete and be able to lift heavy, um, move with speed and agility for a long period of time. And so that's that's that's the heart of my training now. I'm I'm always trying to keep a base level of cardio fitness, and so I'm I'm running um three days a week, generally speaking. I haven't the last couple weeks just because of some stuff going on, but but generally I'm running three days a week. Uh, try to do at least an hour of cardio three days a week, zone two. So that's conversational pace. If you and I were running together, which you won't, but if we were, interesting, um, I would I would be able to have a conversation with you while I'm running. I'm not gr I'm not gasping for air and you know, huffing and puffing. I'm keeping a good zone two pace, building that aerobic engine, um, and then spending three to four days a week doing functional fitness. Um, the base for me is push-ups, pull-ups, sit-ups, squats. Um, every time I work out, those are a part of it. I don't, I mean, I will take rest days, but I don't take rest days from those things, if that makes sense. Um, there'll be days where I don't run or I don't work out. But if I'm working out, I'm doing those things. I I'm not a well, yeah, I worked out that muscle group yesterday, so I'm not gonna work that one out again till Thursday. Um when it comes to push-ups, squats, sit-ups, and and uh pull-ups, I'm doing those every time I work out.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

You said that your body type isn't necessarily gonna be the one that wins an endurance race. I'm not sure understand. Is there a as I was thinking about it, would someone that is shorter and much lighter in weight be who would typically win an endurance race?

SPEAKER_00 26:40

Generally speaking, yeah, generally speaking, that's true. Okay. Um, if you go look at the fastest ultra runners, the fastest um you know bike packers, whatever, generally speaking, they are they are not going to be 6'3, 210, 220 pounds. Um, they are generally going to be uh smaller framed, uh wiry, super strong, super tough. Don't don't don't uh don't mistake their small stature as weakness because that ain't the case at all. Um they're some of the strongest, most mentally tough people on the planet, which is why they're able to do what they're able to do. Yeah. But yeah, you know, it's just a lot of I'm a lot of weight to move around, and you know, it's just physics. Yeah, it takes the more mass you're moving, the more energy it takes to move that mass. Yeah, and so it takes more energy to move my body, which means I've got to be able to fuel at a high level to keep my body moving. Uh, it also means my body is consuming at a rapid rate. And so it's that, and then it's just the wear and tear, right? Like every time I come down on my knee, it's a it's it's there's a lot of there's a lot of G's coming down with me because I'm a big frame guy. Yeah. Um, and so I'm also I'm not I'm not a uh anybody who has trained with me or run with me or spent a lot of time with me would tell you uh I don't float. I'm not a real agile person. I uh my my my movements are more of an more of an elephant than a butterfly. And so uh that that's another reason. And part of that's my size. Certainly there are agile guys my size that are way more agile than I am, but size is a factor. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:46

That's true.

SPEAKER_00 28:48

Yeah. So what about you? What are you how how are you training? What's your current um fitness goals and practices look like?

SPEAKER_01 29:00

I want longevity. So my philosophy behind behind this has changed as I'm growing older. I'm 39. And dude, that is you're almost 40 years old. Oh, we don't have to talk about that. You know, 39 would that was that was my hardest birthday.

SPEAKER_00 29:16

I could tell you, wait till you get 40. I could tell you what's gonna happen to you when you hit 40. I'm not ready in your condition. I'm not ready. My condition, what does that mean? It didn't it didn't happen to me what happens to most people at 40 just because you're you're just kind of above and no, it's not that I just I'm able to run circles around most 40 uh just about all 40 year olds. I think there are three guys in my life that are my age that um that I would say like I'd be hard pressed to hang with them. Yeah. Um, and it's good to have those people in your life. If they can continue to push you, yeah, because I would I would get lazy without them. Um but back to you. Uh I'm just saying that, you know, things are gonna go downhill. You're gonna 40 years old.

SPEAKER_01 30:04

Listen, that's not very far away. No, I'm just kidding.

SPEAKER_00 30:07

I know in all seriousness, I feel I feel better, uh, not at 46, which is how old I am, but I felt better at 42 than I did at 36.

SPEAKER_01 30:17

Yeah, and that's that's my goal because what I've noticed about myself is as I've gotten into my upper 30s, my joints feel different, my back feels different, my body in in general feels different than it did even when I was 30, 32 years old. I don't recover as fast, and I'm stiff a lot more than I was, and and I see people my age, because I'm I'm in I'm in pretty good shape. I see people my age, and they they have so many issues, so many issues, and I our bodies are not going to get any better. I think it after I think it's 35 is I don't know if this is scientific, but for me, I felt it after 35. I started feeling like I was going down, my body was going downhill, and now I have to actively fight against it. So the big things for me are strength training for uh longevity. I want to, I want to continually strength train so my muscle mass, it's going to diminish. There's a percentage as you grow older. I can't tell you that percentage off the top of my head, but you're gonna lose that. And that's why when you see folks that are older in their 50s, 60s, 70s, if they fall, they're that's why the risk of breaking something is so much higher because they've lost muscle mass. I want to actively fight against that. I want to rage, rage against the dying.

SPEAKER_00 31:56

Your full frontal assault is against diminish diminishing muscle mass. Yep, and is against the man boobs.

SPEAKER_01 32:02

Yes. I I want mobility. I like my fight better than yours. I want mobility. Yeah, I am 6'5 and I'm 215, 220. Pure chocolate. Pure chocolate. 6'5, 215, pure chocolate, baby. I'll take it in. I'm hey, that's a fact right there. Yeah. I um I feel it in my joints. I feel it when I climb. I I especially felt it when I started climbing in my hips and in my knees and in my shoulders and in my elbows.

SPEAKER_00 32:42

So you're doing right now what old people do. Thanks Steve. What do they do? You're going on and on about all your aches and pains.

SPEAKER_01 32:49

I am. That's what old people do. I'm I'm building something, I'm building it up. I'm telling you of the philosophy behind what I'm doing. Um, so I I I want to integrate mobility, strength, and mobility. And what has done that for me is kettlebells. The move, yep, yep. The movements in that are so much different than me just benching or squatting. It is a full body movement. It's dynamic. It's dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 33:16

You're moving weight, stopping weight, yep. Controlling the swing of a heavy object.

SPEAKER_01 33:21

Man, that's I'm using my legs a lot. I'm doing, you know, all sorts of different deep squats and mobility exercises and hips and um that. And I just really like it. It's exciting to me. It's fun to use kettlebells. So I'm doing that. Uh, it's starting to warm up. Mountain biking is gonna start again. I like to do some races. I have at least one race on the books for this year, and so I want to train for that. Um, and then climbing. So, really, those three things right now climbing, kettlebells, and mountain biking are what I'm doing. And I really like that. It's fun, it's a lot of fun. Yeah, so I want to do that. And um Amber, who is who is my girlfriend and I, uh have uh there's an adventure race coming up in September. And I I don't remember the name of the group. It's like Warrior Races or something. They put on a bunch of different adventure races throughout the year, and we're gonna do one up in Blairsville, Georgia. And it's a combination of trekking, mountain biking, and canoeing. Oh, that'll be fun. So I'm I'm uh the canoeing, mobility in my shoulders, core strength, arm strength, and then the mountain biking. And I'm just trying to integrate everything right now. So I'm I am, I know it's it's far away, but I'm I want to start really building a good base for that adventure race now.

SPEAKER_00 34:53

That's awesome. That's awesome. You know, one of the things that that you talked about when you were talking sounding like an old man talking about your aches and pains and everything. Yeah. Uh one of the things that I truly believe in and I tell people all the time, and they generally don't want to hear it. Okay. But it's the idea that uh, and I think uh I first heard this by a guy named Pat McNamara, who is like this ex like Delta Force guy. He's probably in his late 50s. The dude is super fit, just a machine. What's his name? Pat McNamara. Pat McNamara, I think is his name. Uh, but he he had this statement. I'm sure he didn't come up with it, but he's one that I heard say it, say motion is lotion. And as you think about your joints and you think about mobility, um I I remember when after I hiked through hike the Appalachian Trail, um, which is an amazing experience, but it is hard on your body. Very much so. And um I developed over the course of the years following that some real knee pain and near knee problems to the point that my knee would it would swell up after some sort of physical output. And I could barely like it would swell up so much. I mean, I I literally had had had to have had to have it drained before, fluid removed from it. It would swell up so much, I it just wouldn't function. It wasn't a function, it wasn't a matter of how tough I was, it was just a matter of it would not it would not bend. And um, I I went to the doctor, went to the orthopedist, and I'm gonna need surgery, I'm gonna need all this stuff, right? And I just did not want to do that. I did not want that. And so several years of living like that for several years, which was also, by the way, during that period of time where I got out of shape and got mamboobs. Um I, when I really got serious about fitness again, specifically about ultra endurance stuff, I read this book called Primal Endurance. And the book talks about a couple key things. One of them is the idea that a used joint, a joint that is used and active on a regular basis, is a healthy joint. And I had to push through the pain and discomfort associated with my my knee to get my knee to the place where it was functioning health healthy again. It's almost like I had to tell my body, hey, you're gonna have to figure this out because I'm gonna use that knee. And that my body said, All right, well, if we're gonna if you're gonna use it, we might as well we might as well try to try to help. Um, and it it it made a big difference of just using it. Now, I had to change the way I was using it, right? That's that zone two world. Yeah, I'm not I'm not trying to run a six-minute mile for five miles. Um, because that that is what was creating a lot of that pain and inflammation in my knee. But I can run a 10-minute mile for six miles, and it's a lot easier on my knee. And there's not all that lactic acid buildup. I mean, there's a whole there's there's remarkable science around it. So it was I had to change the way I was using it, I had to change my diet. So I was eating crap, lots of carbs, processed sugar, and all of that is inflammatory. Yeah. And when I cut out processed sugar and I reduced my carbs significantly, focused on high protein, high vegetable content diet, like a Mediterranean style diet, and I committed to that zone two cardio, I kid you not, man. It's like it was like the healing power of God unleashed on my knee, and it ceased to be an issue. And people who people who knew me and worked out with me, like I literally, I had a had a buddy, Joe, who saw that I had done one of one of the ultra races that I did. Uh, I don't remember which one it was, but he had saw that I'd done one. Uh, maybe he saw the documentary or he saw it online or something. And he called me. I hadn't heard from him in a couple years. And he calls me and he's like, hey man, I saw you did that thing. How do you how are you doing that on your knee? Like I remember when we used to go climbing or mountain biking or something, like how your knee would swell up. My knees hurt all the time. How are you doing that? And I told him, I'm like, hey man, here's here's what I've done. No surgery, no physical therapy. I changed my diet and I changed the way I worked out and I committed to pushing through the pain for a season. And it made all the difference in the world. And the number of middle-aged men, and I say this out there, not to the middle-aged men, because you guys are gonna keep doing what you're doing, you're gonna keep using your achy joints as an excuse to stay fat and out of shape, and that's fine. That's fine. You do that, but to the young men out there that are listening, I I will I will tell you that uh the more active that you stay, the more you make this a priority in this season, and the more you push through not injuries, but hurts, the more you push through being hurt. There's a difference between being injured and being hurt. The more you push through being being hurt and pain and train your body to function in light of that, the better you'll be able to perform in your 30s and 40s and 50s.

SPEAKER_01 41:10

I think there's a point of contention between you and I. Please. That I'm gonna bring up. Content.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Contention away, content away.

SPEAKER_01 41:19

Um you're right about it, the the trail, the Appalachian Trail being really rough on your body. Yeah. It was it was it was pretty hard on my body, uh, particularly my ankle. See, you're smiling. I was smiling. You're smiling. Uh I went two years after the trail because I thought uh my ankle would start feeling better, right?

SPEAKER_00 41:50

So so let me do you mind if I ask a couple questions while you go, or you want me to just let you finish?

SPEAKER_01 41:54

Let me finish. Okay. Um I can do that. Can you? Okay. I see you didn't even let me. I can't even finish. Don't do that. Just carry on. Okay. I was continuing to do the level of activity that I wanted to do. I was trying to run, I was doing high impact activities, right? Um, and eventually I had to stop doing it because it was too painful to keep moving forward on this thing. So I was like, and I would let it rest and it would get to a good place. And if I tried to do higher impact activity, it would go right back to what was happening, and it would be progressive over time and get worse and worse and worse and worse. I finally was like, I think I need to go see, I need to go figure out what's going on. Because I was 21, 22, 22 years old. I'm like, this shouldn't be happening. I'm too young. Went to the podiatrist, they did a scan, uh, CT scan, and blah, blah, blah. Um, got the results, and I had developed osteoarthritis. So the cartilage, you know, your ankle joint, you have cartilage, and the cartilage had started wearing away, and usually there's that lubrication there, and the joint goes smoothly. Now they were bone to bone doing rubbing, and that's what was happening. And when I would, I would, I would, I could do exercises to kind of push them apart, and that helped a lot. Um, but the high impact, all it does is push down, like push the ankle bone and and together, right? Um and so I was like, oh man. And he said, This is I wouldn't suggest getting surgery right now. I would wait as Long as you can before getting surgery. I was like, okay, well, I'm also going to get a second opinion. So I went to a second podiatrist, did the same thing. They said the same thing. Um, and so they said, what we would suggest is you just switching, switching your activity. And that's actually, that's when I start I switched from running to road biking. That's when I started biking. And so then I started road biking, helped tremendously. And over the years, I have delved back into trying to run, and yet the ankle will get really, really bad. My ankle hurts every day. Every day it hurts. I don't, I don't, the older I've gotten, the worse it's gotten. But but it hurts every single day. And I'm not saying that like, but I'm just this is it is what it is. I've just learned to live with it. So you said there's a difference between being injured and being hurt. Where do you think I'm at?

SPEAKER_00 45:14

I don't know. Okay. Because I don't know. Like I I think you you have had an injury. Yes. Certainly. If it is still an injury, I I have no idea. I'm not I'm not qualified to make that call. I'm sure it hurts. I believe you that it hurts. Um, and I'm not suggesting that you go run on it. Um, I I I the day will come for me that I will run less and do other less impactful exercise. Okay. Because sooner or later my right knee will will say no moss. And um, and I'm aware of that. I am going to push that off as long as I can. And what I'm saying is the best way for me to get more out of my knee is to use my knee more on a regular basis. The and that that seems counterintuitive to people. Totally. Right? Like the way, the way I've I've got a buddy who is a uh orthopedic doctor that um I was talking to about about my knee. And yeah, he actually looked at x-rays of it and he was like, I don't, I don't know how you do what you do. And I asked him, I'm like, well, what like if I was a patient in your office, what would you recommend? And he was like, if you were my patient, I would tell you to keep doing what you're doing, to get every bit you can out of it. And he used the analogy of a car.

SPEAKER_01 47:06

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 47:07

And he said, he said, if you have an old car, it's got a lot of miles on it, is it better for that car to sit in your garage and not drive? Don't crank it up, don't drive it, don't use the accelerator, don't hit the brakes, just let her sit. Or is it better for you to get that car out every day and drive it around the neighborhood? Get the fluid flowing, right? Check the brakes, apply pressure, keep the car, put some gas through that thing, blow the carbon out of the like, which is better for the car? Well, any mechanic that I know would say, no, no, no, get it out, drive it. Right? Yeah. Same thing with your knee, same thing with your ankle, same thing with with your body. Now, there comes a point where you've driven that car every day for years and years and years and years and years and years, and the engine just is gonna stop functioning. Right? Like that that's gonna happen. And I will likely get to that point with my knee, and you will likely get that point to your ankle. My point is so many people take the mentality of, well, it hurts and it's not perfectly sound, so I'm gonna keep it parked in the garage and I'm not gonna drive it.

SPEAKER_01 48:34

I don't feel like I'm doing that. I don't think you are either.

SPEAKER_00 48:36

Yeah. I don't think you are either. I'm so so my point, I'm not sure where the contention is between other than I would say, um, yeah, I'm not I don't know where the contention is.

SPEAKER_01 48:53

Do you want me to push past the pain to run?

SPEAKER_00 48:58

Dude, I don't care whether you run or not. I don't care at all. Listen, you since over the last year, you've done the ROP course. Yep. That's for those that don't know what that is, that is a 24-hour forced hike, especially specifically. You don't sit down for 24 hours, constant movement, constant hiking. You've completed the ROP course on that ankle. Like, I dude, that's awesome. 98% of the world would have said, No, I ain't no way I'm doing that. That's gonna my ankle's gonna hurt for 24 hours straight. You knew your ankle was gonna hurt for 24 hours straight when you went into it. I'm sure it did hurt for 24 hours straight. But you went out and did it. So, like, man, man, I don't care if you run or not. It's like, but I would care deeply if you sat on your butt eating bonbons, watching football or golf all weekend because your ankle hurts. I would care deeply about that.

SPEAKER_01 50:02

No, that's great.

SPEAKER_00 50:03

I don't want to do that. You you won't. It's not in you to do that. I won't, I wouldn't let you, but you wouldn't, you're not gonna do it anyways. Because here's because here's here's what you've learned and what I've learned. Yeah, go ahead. Is that what we do when we train our bodies physically, we benefit mentally. Like we just did an episode on mental health, and we didn't talk about this, but it's true. You train your body physically, you develop strength mentally, you develop resilience, and you it makes life better, it makes you more effective, it makes you more productive, and that like the implications spill out into all different areas of life, and so it's not even as much about being physically fit for me now, although that's very important, but it's also like most days, the hardest thing that I go through in a 24-hour period, I inflict upon myself. I think that's a healthy thing. Yeah. I I think that when I leave my house most mornings after having put myself through the ringer in a workout or a run or cold plunge or whatever, and I know that's probably the hardest thing that I'm gonna go through today. It shifts my perspective on the rest of the day. And it's things like that are these ancillary benefits of working out that are gonna keep you and I engaged in doing it. Um, and that's why it's such a such an important discipline to develop. Yep, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 52:02

Well, that was our free form. There we go. I had fun with that one. I did too. I thought that was really good. Is there anything else you feel like you want to say regarding this topic?

SPEAKER_00 52:15

No, well, yeah, actually there is. Okay. Um, I would I just encourage listeners to um the the big thing that works for me, continues to work for me. I still do it every year. I see you doing it as well. Is um I leverage what I know to be true about me to um, in a word, manipulate myself to ensure I continue on the right path as it pertains to working out. And what I know about me is that I do not want to show up in an environment unprepared and look like an idiot.

SPEAKER_01 53:03

Want to be capable.

SPEAKER_00 53:04

I know that about me. And so what I do is on the front end, every year, I pick one or two big things that I commit to and I sign up for. Whether it's a tactical games, whether it's an ultra marathon, it might be a like Chad and I have done these long distance backpacking races together. Last year it was climbing the Grand Teton. But I pick one or two things that I commit to, I spend money on, they're on the calendar. And on those days where everything in my body says, take the day off. Don't do it today. One day of not putting out isn't gonna hurt. I know that that day is coming. And that motivates me to get up and put in the work on those days where otherwise I would be lazy. And so I'd encourage people like, what is that for you? What how how can you, what you, how can what you know, what you know about yourself help you convince yourself to do the right thing and make that decision early, put it on the calendar, put some money behind it so that you're actually committed and then go do it.

SPEAKER_01 54:31

That accountability is key.

SPEAKER_00 54:33

Yep. It's it's bit it's so big for me because I don't like the idea of having a group of four guys that we go and meet at the gym every morning. Man, I would love that. That's just not reality in my stage of life. Um, and just with other things going on in my life, and so I don't have that kind of accountability. Um, but I do have the accountability of there's a taxable games on the calendar that we're committed to. There's an ultra in December that I'm committed to that I'm gonna run. Um, those things on the calendar serve as my accountability because I've told people I'm gonna do it. I've put out money to do it, and the idea of showing up not ready and unfit for that challenge is way worse to me than the pain of getting up and actually working out.

SPEAKER_01 55:34

All right. You heard it here first. That's a wrap. You heard it here first. All right, guys. We want you to subscribe. We want to keep doing this for you. Uh, we think this is important. Uh, we enjoy doing it, and we've seen people's lives and perspectives and things change, ours have in many different ways, and we want to keep doing this. Um, and one way to do that is to subscribe, and we want you to share this with a with a friend or somebody that you think would benefit from hearing some of these things, and we want to hear from you as well. Uh, we want to continue to build a community and we want to hear from you. So leave a comment.