SPEAKER_00 0:00

Rather that. All right. What are we talking about today, Big Steve? Welcome to the Beyond Podcast. That's what we're talking about. All right. Well, that's a quick podcast. It was a quick podcast. Thanks for joining. Um, we're talking about well, the the title was something about self-esteem. And I didn't like the title. You didn't like the title. And it was Jesus Didn't Come to Fix Our Self-Esteem. Which is true, but I just don't really like that title. I don't love that.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

And then uh But we're talking about mental health.

SPEAKER_00 0:40

We're talking about mental health. Is that right? That's exactly right. And we recorded one before this.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Yes. So we we recorded a podcast actually last week about this topic. And literally while between the beginning of the podcast and the end of the podcast, I um I my perspective on the topic and the role of therapy um it changed. And I felt like I said some things early on in the podcast that could be um would be potentially really bad advice for people or really bad um a bad position for people to align with. And so rather than go through and try to edit and cut and all that, I just said let's let's just let's re-record. Let's re-record. Let's let's go take two.

SPEAKER_00 1:43

Then let's go take two. All right, let's roll with it. I think this is this is a good one to do, and I think a lot of people will resonate with it. Um, I I do wish that we could have released that and then done another one.

SPEAKER_01 1:59

Yeah, I know, but the audio is jacked up too. So Lord, Lord did not want that podcast going out. Lord did not want that going out there, which is which is a grace to me. Um so Big Steve, why why though are we talking about this? I mean, we hear a lot about it. Um, I I still hold to the position even after last week's podcast and the week that we are in an in an overly therapeutic season as a culture, uh, specifically within the church and even outside of the church. But that's not reason enough to me, at least, for us to have a podcast about it. Why are we why are we talking about this?

SPEAKER_00 2:42

I think several reasons. One is I've dealt with it for many, many years and have delved into different issues and aspects in my own life when it comes to therapy and uh mental health. And then also we hear a lot about it from our uh our beyond alumni, folks that come with us on our trips. It is if there's one thing we can bank on, at least let's say we have 10 10 participants, at least four of them are gonna have some sort of, they're gonna mention something about mental health, anxiety, depression. Um, they're gonna mention, they're gonna mention about it. So I think it's important, and we've heard more and more about therapy um within the church. There's a there has been a therapeutic movement, you could say, towards in integrating more therapeutic language into the Christian vernacular, if I can say Christian vernacular, like you can. Okay, yeah, yeah. You can say almost anything you want to say. Yeah. Um it's kind of your podcast. I guess I can say whatever I want. Uh in addition, we do have more information than we did 50 years ago on mental health and why it happens and what can help it. Yeah. So there's a there's a lot there that I think we can talk about and we should talk about, especially as we serve young adults.

SPEAKER_01 4:19

So let's let's kick off this way. I'd like to um I'd like to try to define our term here, specifically a term around mental health, because I think we uh we hear about mental health all the time, and it kind of feels like a catch-all to me. Like it's everything from uh anxiety, depression, um disorders like schizophrenia or bipolar, and then it's even like my feelings have been hurt a lot and I'm not in a good mental place, or I don't feel safe in the environment that I'm in and my mental health is struggling, or I need a I need a mental health day away from work or school. Like I it just feels to me like this kind of catch-all phrase. And so it would be helpful to know for me and probably for people listening, what what are we specifically talking about?

SPEAKER_00 5:26

Well, when I say mental health, I think a good definition that I I think about is uh the ongoing ability to regulate emotions, think clearly, maintain perspective, form healthy relationships, act with agency, and endure stress without losing stability or yeah, without losing stability. Uh work in relationships, in relation with yourself, uh family, friends, community.

SPEAKER_01 5:57

So there were a lot of words, a lot of big words in there, but what I heard you say in my simple terminology is it's the ability to deal with challenges, struggles, hardships, um positives, negatives, and to maintain a healthy emotional baseline.

SPEAKER_00 6:18

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 6:19

Okay. I was uh I had a meeting earlier this week with one of our um co-founders of Beyond, a gentleman by the name of David Pyle, and he he got this quote from somewhere, and I tried to look it up, I couldn't find it anywhere. But he he said this um, well, he didn't say it, but the quote is this that um poor mental health is the inability to deal with the gray areas of life. And I really liked that. The more I've thought about that, the more I like that.

SPEAKER_00 6:58

Say it one more time.

SPEAKER_01 7:00

That poor mental health, like being mentally unhealthy, is the inability to deal with the gray areas of life. Right? So, so in life we have we have the extremes. So we have things that are just pure joy, pure excitement, pure happiness. Then we have the things that are pure hardship, pain, loss, suffering, trauma, right? And generally um people expect to struggle with the ex with the extreme on the pain side or the hurt, and they expect no struggle, no issues on the extreme joy side. And it's normal and perfectly regular to struggle on the extreme side of pain, hurt, discomfort, all that, right? But there's most of life is lived in the middle, in this gray area, where it's not just hi, hi, hi, awesome joy, and it's not my dog just died and my world is falling apart, pain. It's lived in the middle, and that's the gray. And our inability to process, deal with, and thrive in the midst of the gray area is what is is what would be like there's a there's a mental health challenge or issue if we can't do that. If we can't if we can't process the gray areas of life well.

SPEAKER_00 8:49

I think that works in many cases when we talk about mental health now, as far as the inability to deal with the gray areas of life. I guess my question is what happens when things that are supposed to be black and white become gray because of some kind of chemical deficiency within your brain. Right? Like when I hear gray area, I think of there's a there's a person who mentally has what they need, chemically speaking. They're not, you know, not everyone is there's nobody perfect that's gonna have the right amount of serotonin or the right amount of dopamine, what all of those. But someone who's in general, like this is where they're at, right? They're they're functioning properly, plus or minus. And they have a bad day, or they're they're they um they run into some suffering in life. And that produces kind of this gray area, right? From what I hear you saying, like it, there's this gray area that is produced because they went through some hardship, and so now they are feeling the effects of that suffering or hardship. So they are probably a little bit more depressed, they might be shutting down mentally or emotionally a little bit more, they're gonna be more irritable, or they they're gonna choose to engage in a behavior that is excessive or yeah, that's excessive um overconsumption or not consuming anything, uh thinking about food. Um that be kind of the gray area. And so they're able, but they're able to work themselves out of it without much help.

SPEAKER_01 11:10

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I I don't I think the I think the idea behind that quote or that definition is you like I would say if you're able to work yourself out of it, well then you are you are actively displaying the ability to manage that gray area. Yes, because you're able to through whatever mechanisms you use to see your way out of it.

SPEAKER_00 11:41

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 11:42

Whereas someone who had who is not able to do that, they they are stuck in the gray areas of life. Yes, yes, right. And then the other the other aspect I think is important is that when we talk about the gray area from a world like a biblical worldview perspective, I see this a lot in young adults that we serve, is there are gray areas of belief as well, or areas where what we believe or what we say believe we believe are challenged by the realities of life. And all of a sudden, what we thought was black or white, we thought it was good or bad, it becomes gray.

SPEAKER_03 12:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 12:28

Right? I understand that. Um, idea, perfect example. Like we we brush up against this one frequently, is we've uh we have young men and women who have grown up in the church. They know what the scriptures say about marriage. Their parents have been in church their whole life. Divorce is a black and white issue to them. Mom and dad are getting a divorce. And now they know that divorce is wrong and they know they love their parents and they want their parents to be happy. There's hurt, there's pain, there's a feeling of abandonment, and all of a sudden, this issue that was black and white has become very gray. And it's an inability, and the inability to deal with that in a healthy way is also, I think, the gray area, the gray areas of life that are are a challenge, they're a struggle to deal with. And so I think it I think it's both and that makes sense.

SPEAKER_00 13:36

Yeah, that makes sense. That may yeah, and I think that I I think I think that's right. And then, you know, you could go even further, and when they're in that gray gray area, yeah, how are they coping? Are they coping in a good way? Are they trying to find healing in a life and a path that leads to life, or are they using something else to take them down a path of destruction?

SPEAKER_01 14:03

Yeah. So I wanna I want to die I want to dive into that because I um I have I've never really there's one time in my life where I would say I struggled with anxiety. Um it was a short season, it was work-related pressures and responsibilities. Um, I don't know that I've ever been depressed. I mean, I'm sure I have like dipped into it, but I don't think I've ever lived in a place of depression for any length of time. Um, I don't I have a hard time being honest, relating and understanding anxiety and depression and mental health issues. And so you've been very open about your struggle with mental health. And so I just I just love to ask you a handful of questions, if you're good with that, around your own struggles and where you have found freedom, uh, where you have found help, where you still where you still struggle today, if there's areas where you do. And just because I think I think that would be helpful um because you have an experience in this area that I don't have. Um, admittedly, I do not red line on empathy as a human being. You could ask my wife. Um, that's an area of growth for me, is being more empathetic. And so even as I have people in my life that I love and care deeply about that struggle in their mental health, I have not done a good job of caring for them and being empathetic with them in that season. And so this is a growth opportunity for me, certainly.

SPEAKER_00 16:00

Okay. Fire away.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

All right. So tell us, tell me a little bit about what it looks like, what you um, what your life looked like or what your thought life looked like. Let's let's center it around there. What did your thought life look like when you were going through a struggles with anxiety and depression? Were those your struggles and what did it what did it look like?

SPEAKER_00 16:30

Yeah, those those those those were my struggles along with um those were my main struggles. Um and to answer that question, I didn't know for a really long time that anything was abnormal because I lived with that anxiety and depression and those obsessive thoughts for so long. Um so I I as early as I remember, probably I can remember feeling it for the first time was anxiety over what people would think of me when I was gosh, I was probably in elementary school, and I would have this knot in my stomach, and I I would want to uh turn a turn away and hide. It was even then, it was hard for me to get out of bed in the morning because I would wake up and I would automatically have anxious feelings, and there was there was this sense of doom and dread that would just be a burden on my back. And I woke up that way for a really, really long time. Um and when I was younger though, I didn't I didn't really have autonomy in my life, right? So I just I just had to move forward. Dad came in and said, get out of bed, get out of bed. Yeah, it's done. Yeah, like you got it, you got it. And so um, but I was also really good at hiding it. I never, never said anything to anybody about it because I thought it was normal to have those anxious feelings, to have the um, to have those anxious feelings and to feel less than. Um and that progressed and in my teens getting on into high school, that got worse and worse because you start experiencing more life. So high school comes around, you're you start getting more responsibility. I'm starting to work, I'm thinking about dating, you know, I'm interested in girls, I have my community of friends, I'm doing on any number of different activities. I get my license, you go through all you go through all of these new things. And um with your typical teenager struggles, right? Your body's changing, your mind is changing, you're learning new things. Um, that anxiety never went away. And what what what I found would happen is that anxiety would cause me to think about certain scenarios. I would think about certain things. It might have been a conversation, it mightn't have been an event, it might be a hypothetical event, it could be uh a conversation in the past, or it might be a conversation in the future, um, it might be a hard conversation that I have to have with somebody. Um, it was it could be any number of different things that I was thinking about. The problem was I couldn't stop thinking about it. And no matter what I did, I couldn't stop. So it would it would loop over and over and over and over again and cause that anxiety to grow and grow and grow and want me to shut down. And then it would um I felt I I I and I would try to distract myself. Um, but when that distraction would stop, I would it'd come right back up and it would drive that anxiety. And then what I came to find out later, what was happening was that anxiety and those obsessive thoughts and the compulsions there to think about and ruminate were causing some of that depression, right? Because it's I'm I'm and most of the time when I was thinking, it's negative stuff, like I'm thinking about an argument I'm having with somebody, or I'm thinking about a failure of mine, or I'm thinking about something very negative, and it's generally about me. And so there was just in general a negative cloud around me at all times, and that caused me to turn inward and shut down and have that anxiety, and then that drove the depression and that rumination just wouldn't stop, it just couldn't stop, and and I didn't really know, I thought that was normal because I didn't tell. I didn't say anything to anybody, no one ever said anything to me. I thought everyone struggled with that. Um, but I didn't realize that not being able to stop thinking about it was not normal.

SPEAKER_01 21:50

So, what then provoked you to go talk to someone about it or to go? Seek some input and insight.

SPEAKER_00 22:02

So when I was 30 years old.

SPEAKER_01 22:06

So you lived, uh sorry, I don't want to, I just I don't want to run past this. Okay. So you lived your adult life, right? I get I get you had these feelings well before your adult life. Yes. But to your point, you didn't have a lot of agency over no like your day-to-day rhythms and actions during that time. Yes. Certainly not, you didn't have the freedoms you do as an adult. So from like 18 to 30, you wrestled and struggled. Like I knew you in that season. You did. And I would not have said, dude's got issues. Yeah. Like I don't I don't remember any outward symptoms or outward um indications that you were struggling at that level. But there were there was there was a 12-year season of time where that was going on. Yes. And during that time were there ups and downs, like what's better in the seasons? Absolutely. But it was it was a thread the whole time. Okay. And then you're 30, and what happens?

SPEAKER_00 23:11

Yeah. So I I I let me I'll say, let me say something about that 12 years. When you when I started having more agency, uh, I moved, I basically I did, I moved out of the house when I was 18. Um and kind of and started my own my own life. Um and when you do that, the ups and downs um could be controlled some by different mechanisms that I could pull, different levers I could pull. Um spending time with friends really did help. Um, having a community of people that loved me and cared for me, my friends, um, different getting myself out of certain environments that helps. But one of the things that that I learned to do was use substance and uh specifically nicotine and alcohol and THC to try and well, what it did was it it turned the volume down on all that stuff. And so it was this regulator for me.

SPEAKER_01 24:24

It it created a different baseline. It did, yeah. It just kind of gave you a flat Yep. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:31

And I didn't know that that's what was happening. You just knew you felt better. I just knew I felt better. And so over time that got that I used more and more and more and more and more and more. Um, and the depression really got worse and worse and worse and worse and worse throughout that because I wasn't doing anything about it.

SPEAKER_03 24:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 24:50

And more and more things were stacking up in life, more and more responsibilities were stacking up, more relationships were stacking up, more relationship failures, things that happen in life when from when you're 18 to 30. That's a there's a lot of uh formative things that happen within those those years. And um, you know, uh getting not dealing with any of those and not recognizing those and numbing those things, and uh really built up to a point to where suicide was this thing that would come up into my head. So it got 30.

SPEAKER_01 25:38

It got there, correct. Like at 30 years old. So I just want to paint a picture based on what you're telling me. 30 years old, you are uh anxious, you're depressed, you are ruminating on things that are not healthy mentally, you're using alcohol and weed to try. I mean, not even intentionally, but just like those are the numbers, those are the things that give you a a bit of relief. Yes. Um, just side side note here, since our audience is young adults, one of the biggest lies in our culture today, specifically last 15 years, in this big push to make weed legal, is that weed is this innoculous, like relatively unharmful substance that we can use at our leisure without consequence. And that's this is a separate podcast, but I will just tell you that is a lie. And that as you choose to engage in using weed, um, smoking weed, however you decide to ingest and consume it, um, you are doing harm to your body and to your mind. Um, and the longer you do it, the more compounding that harm is. And so that's a that's that's that's a free of charge public service announcement there, but that's a little pet peeve of mine because um the narratives out there around weed just aren't accurate. Uh even and and there's plenty of science to back that up. That's this isn't just James's opinion. But so you're using you're you're using alcohol, smoking dope, and it gets to the point where you're beginning to have suicidal thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 27:39

Yes, because I'm caught in this loop, this pattern in life. It's like this cycle over and over and over again. And um when when you're when you're 30, you're not old, but you got enough life under your belt to see some things go right and some things go wrong, and then kind of and the ship right again, and then kind of it's that cycle. Yeah, and you've you've had enough years that you can see that. And so when I saw that happening, that happened three times, two, three, four times in my life, you get to a point, especially if you're using the cope, and you're not understanding what's happening, where you say, Well, if this is if this is all there is, why would I do this again? Why would I just why would I go through this cycle one more time? And having those thoughts, and and I think there's a there's a difference. And I want to maybe make this clear. I'll do my best to try to articulate this. I never planned how I would do something like that. Um not like a hard written plan and was getting things ready, there, but there was a there was a thought pattern of I'd need this to go away. Nothing I do is making this go away. So what will make it go away? Oh, if I don't exist, right? And so then you fantasize like, well, what if I didn't exist? Oh, everything would go away. Right. So, and and so I'm um maybe that's called ideations. That's exactly the term. Okay, yep. Um and though that is the step towards doing something like that. That is, yeah. And I have had three people in my life do that, and um, I've seen the damage it causes. I went to all of theirs, all their funerals, I knew them, I was friends with them. Um, and so I wasn't a stranger to the next step. It was these folks were uh direct friends of mine, like we would hang out one-on-one. So being being that age, seeing the cycle, knowing that my friends have done it, me starting to have these ideations was a really hard place to be. And someone that loves me very much um talked to me because I opened up to her and said, here's where I'm at. And this is what I'm feeling, this is what's going on. And um she suggested that I go see somebody and get help. Uh, whether that was, I think it was uh go see somebody about therapy and uh medication. Maybe you should look at getting on something. And at that point, I had I was in such a spot that I I told her, I said, yes, I'll do that. I was on, I was, I was actually on the road for work at that point. So I was like, when I get home, I will go and do that. And so when I got home, I I went to go, I I I did that because I was in, I was I was in a in a pretty bad place. And I think that was a I think the Lord used that person and used my circumstances to push me to that that place.

SPEAKER_01 31:58

And that was a helpful experience? Very going going to because so we talk I talked about this in the first episode, and this is where I I feel like I I got a little off the rails. But I will say this, okay. Okay, I am highly skeptical, I know you are, of anything in the medical field, especially post-code, like anything medical field, I and mental health field in terms of the professionals that we trust to help us through these seasons and these times. And the undeniable, in my view, undeniable reality that they are incentivized financially for you to keep coming back. They're incentivized financially for you to um to to be sick. And I I wonder, I'm concerned that a lot of time healing isn't the actual outcome that we're working towards. It's it's a management plan, right? Yes. And and so that's that's my bias. Having said that, I know so many people that have benefited greatly from therapy, counseling, uh, medication. And I wholeheartedly believe that there are really, really solid, really good counselors and therapists out there that their ministry, their calling and giftedness is to care for people and to care for their mind. Right? Like we uh Romans chapter 12, one of my favorite verses do not be conformed to the patterns of this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind. Right. And that, and I do believe that God uses people to help usher us through that process of rejecting conformity to the world and renewing our minds. Um, but I'm skeptical of like there's a lot out there too that I don't think that's that's their calling or their speci, you know, their position.

SPEAKER_00 34:35

So I think we put a we can put a pin in that because I would I would say you you're you're right. That's that's gonna be that way in anything though. And I maybe that's what you're meaning. Maybe not just the medical world, but I even pastors, they want people to keep coming back, right? They teachers, like they there, there is a we have a system that rewards some folks certain things when they have returning business.

SPEAKER_01 35:15

Yeah, I mean at the yeah, at the end of the day, people will generally do what they're incentivized to do. Yeah. Right? We're generally led by our incentives. Um, and to not do that, to not let our incentives lead us, is that's that's the exception, not the rule. And so uh but what is the exception to not to not be led by what by incentives.

SPEAKER_00 35:47

So you're saying the majority of people are led by incentives, yes. And then there is a small percentage of people who actually want to do the thing they're doing because they know it's gonna help somebody.

SPEAKER_01 36:00

Um, yes, yeah, I think so. I I would say it like you can be led by your you can be value led, right? Like I've I have these set of values that set the trajectory of my life, and I operate and I make decisions based on these values, regardless of what the incentives are. And my my belief would be that's the narrow path. Yeah, those people are out there, um, but those are the minority, the majority are doing in life and in business what they are incentivized to do.

SPEAKER_00 36:44

So that was the beginning of my journey to understanding mental health and the different avenues I can go down to help with that process of becoming healthy.

SPEAKER_01 37:01

So thanks for thanks for sharing all that. I'm curious then where you have found success. Like where have you found success, healing, freedom from those challenges and just the mental health battles that you faced?

SPEAKER_00 37:25

Several places. Psychotherapist, my community, books, psychiatrist, and I'll I'll couple medication with psychiatrist and my relationship with Christ. What well let me say this though those first things that I mentioned, uh community, friends, therapists, psychiatry, slash medication, it helped me see my relationship with God in a different light. It helped, it helped remove some of the fog. It was uh they helped to kind of renew my mind, so to speak. Like what we were talking about, what Paul was talking about renewing of your mind. It was a way that helped me renew my mind to form a better relationship with God to help get rid of some of the false narratives and assumptions that I have, or the things that I the way I was viewing God, or the way that I was maybe over-spiritualizing certain things. It helped bring bring uh things into clarity into my life that really helped my relationship with with God. What I want to what I want to be careful about saying is I think God is above all of those things that I mentioned, therapy. I think they're all like they are all a piece of something we can use to become healthy. Um one of the most important things that I think helped me was choosing to really dig into my relationship with Christ uh through I guess different different Christian authors or books on the subject of mental health. And then also just in my personal time with the Lord, um choosing to sit with the things that sit with the things that I had learned through therapy or through community or through books and and and all of those other things that were helping me understand what was happening, being able to take all of that and sit and in my relationship with the Lord so I could change the narrative of what uh what I had believed. And and saying, okay, well, here's this old narrative, here are the things that I believed and was stuck in. And now I'm at a I'm at a healthier place and I understand some of these cycles that I was going through and some of these minds, the mindset that I was in, and the old narratives that I believed, those are starting to clear away. That fog is starting to clear. I'm starting to see that that was not normal and that's not the truth. And then coming back to God's word and seeing what the truth, what truth is, and what and what the the new way I could begin thinking about who God, who God says I am and who he is. Um when I first started digging into it, a book that really helped me was by Tim Keller called Blessed Self-Forgetfulness. And it it was a it was a it was a paradigm shift in my life. I had never heard anything like the way that he describes humility and he talks about self-esteem. Um when he how he talks about self-esteem is you know how we um in society there was a big movement probably when you and I were growing up. Um you're older than me, pretty significantly.

SPEAKER_01 42:06

So it was just just barely older than you. It's not just barely, but it's it's just a smidge older.

SPEAKER_00 42:13

I I don't think that nobody believes that. And uh so that was a big movement towards self-esteem, right? And the issue with that is it is very like it has in the name, it's self-focused, it's it's based on you. You're looking inward, and it's you who make the decision to feel better about yourself or worse about yourself. What Keller says is that humility, let's see, I'm gonna try to get this right, okay? Because it it's a little bit of a tongue twister, I think. Humility is not thinking less of yourself, but oh shoot, I had it.

SPEAKER_01 43:00

But thinking of yourself less, right?

SPEAKER_00 43:04

So humility is not thinking less of yourself, but thinking of yourself less. Yes, I'm familiar with that. And that blew my mind. God used that in my life to take the focus off of me and put it onto others and to uh put it on his kingdom, revolutionized my thinking. And that I want to be careful here, okay. That helped my depression, that helped my anxiety, that helped a lot of my obsessive thoughts, it helped a lot of my rumination, it helped so many things that it was pretty unbelievable what it did for my life.

SPEAKER_01 43:58

Yeah, and that so. You're hitting like what you just hit on there is the reason, probably the primary reason I'm so skeptical um when it comes to our cultural cultural approach, kind of the the the culturally accepted approach to mental health care is because I feel like and what I've witnessed is that the way we attack this mental health crisis is by saying, Hey, you need to be, you need to, you need to care for yourself. You need to talk about these things that are troubling you and bothering you. Um, you need to peel back the layers and understand where all this stuff comes from. And like, well, all that, like I don't disagree with that on the surface. But when that's all we do, when you're going every week and you're paying somebody to listen to you as you talk about how terrible your life is and how hard things are, and they're affirming what you say, and they're affirming how bad it is, and they are giving some of these ruminations and these thoughts that may actually not even be true, giving them value because that's kind of what they're incentivized to do. I don't think that's helpful. And now I'm not saying that's every therapist, I know it's not, but I I see that even in the way that we relate to each other within the body of Christ and within, especially with like I would say young adults up to you know, like your age, um, which is pretty old. But I think I think if you if you just pay attention and listen, the very nature of anxiety and depression is centered around self and centered around um what I what I feel, what I have experienced, what I need, what is fair to me. It's it's these it's these thought patterns that I I would argue are um are terrible to live in. Now, I'm not saying you never think about yourself, people are gonna go to extreme. That's not what I'm saying, but what I'm saying is is that uh uh as kill as Keller said, like when we think of ourselves less, then we're thinking about other people more. And I see this all the time in the trainings that we do. I see it all the time in long distance, like uh long distance ultra racing, long distance bikepacking, whatever. It's like the people that do well are the people that are looking for opportunities to care for the people around them, even if they're competing against them. It's like this, it's like this sneaky advantage, right? Because everybody's hurting. Everybody is sore, everybody's tired, everybody's has blisters, people's toenails are falling off, like everybody's in the pain cave. If I'm locked in my own head and I am ruminating on how bad it hurts, and how long I have left to go, and how unfair it is that the race director put this mountain in this race, and I do that, man, that is a recipe for disaster. You will turn inward, you will get overwhelmed, and you will quit. But if I'm looking around me and I'm looking at the person beside me, the person in front of me, the person behind me, and I'm saying, hey man, you got this. Come on, let's take this hill together. Hey, you need, I have an extra snack. You need some snack, don't forget to fuel, right? Just the very nature of that is I am looking outward at the people around me and looking for opportunities to serve and give and pour myself out. And that is thinking less. That is thinking of yourself less. And I think we have, I think the pendulum of self-esteem, self-care, um, personal mental health in our culture has swung too far to the side of I need to think of myself more. I need to be healthy if I'm gonna help other people be healthy. I need to be, I need to be, I need to be. These are the things that I need. And I would argue that, you know what, you probably don't need as much as you think you need to be a value, to care for and to serve somebody else, somebody else. And the very nature of that act is thinking of yourself less, which is good for your mental health. Now, correct me in that, because I'm sure I've I'm too far, right? That I've gone too far over to one side on that.

SPEAKER_00 49:52

Well, I I think you I think you swung to a certain side because you wanted to make a point, right? I don't I think there's nuance in what you're saying because for some people to get to the point where they can think of themselves less, they might have to think of themselves first to try to get to the place where they can. And that's for me is where the understanding what was happening in my brain. Yeah. Because it was I I needed help and understanding, and I needed someone else's perspective that had more training and knowledge on something than I did. Someone who could look at me and say, pretty definitively, that's not a normal way of thinking. Yeah, this isn't how you should be thinking. And I went to Christian therapist, right? So they they would they would integrate, they would integrate scripture and stuff into that, and yet they didn't just use the Bible as a prescription. It it wasn't like they they didn't tell me you need to read your Bible more, and then you're gonna be better.

SPEAKER_03 51:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 51:29

What I do believe is what we have in scripture is the way to go. Yeah, that is truth. Like scripture is truth. Yeah, and yet if we if you get a broken arm, you're gonna go to the doctor and you're gonna get a cast. Right? And there's nothing biblically against that. You know, there are things that what we talk about is that the Bible, and I'm sure there's nuance to this too, but a lot of people use it as a textbook and not a guidebook, right? And so if we use it as a textbook, we're probably gonna be picking things out of it that it was never meant to be utilized for. And yes, ultimately, this gives us the Bible and scripture, it gives us the ultimate remedy to our mental health and being in the ultimate healthy place mentally, emotionally, physically, and spiritually. We can't always get there on our own. I can read the renewing of my mind verse a bajillion times and it and then I not change.

SPEAKER_01 53:02

Yeah, and I I get that. I mean, I think I think there is a reality to the world that we live in today, specifically in the US, that is not conducive to good mental health. That is very different than it was even 20 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 53:24

That's a good point.

SPEAKER_01 53:25

And so contextually, like you are living, you are breathing, you are functioning every day in an environment that is harmful to your mental health, all of us, and so you take that reality and then you compare it with the um unique wiring and way that God has created each of us. You combine that with our experiences and the pain and stuff like that. So, like I get, I fully understand, I fully get that people um find themselves in a place where they are stuck in an unhealthy pattern as it pertains to their mental health, as it pertains to the way they see the world, the way they see their place in the world, the way they see their purpose and their value. I I totally get that. I mean, that is literally what Romans 12 says. Do not be conformed to the patterns of this world, right? And so the conformity to those patterns is gonna result in poor mental health. The very nature of a pattern is it repeats, it's a cycle over and over and over again. And so the idea of somebody with more wisdom, more knowledge, more experience than you stepping in to your life to help break that pattern, dude, I love that. That is scriptural at its core. And so I'm like, I'm all for that. Let's let's invite people in that can help us break those patterns. And if that person needs to have some letters behind their name, all right, I'm cool with that. Totally cool with that. And let's um let's understand that their role is to help break that pattern and create a framework for you to biblically renew your mind, right? Not let's let's step in, let's break that pattern, and then let's look at what the world has to offer for you to be able to find long-term healing and freedom. Because that path is not going to lead to the type of fullness of life that the scriptures talk about.

SPEAKER_00 56:33

Yeah, that's a good point, and one that I wanted to mention was the the therapy, medication, and all of that. I was not putting my hope that those things were going to ultimately heal me. Yeah. They were a piece of my journey to getting to a place of mental health, having having a better mental health. But it wasn't the end-all be-all. And really what it did, it was it pointed, it was pointing me to something else, because I knew I knew truth. And so I knew that this wasn't going to be the ultimate answer, and this wasn't going to fix everything in my life. It was a supplement to the real thing, to the real healing, to what is ultimately going on in my brain and what is ultimately happening in this world. And that is what Jesus and the scriptures talk about. And the whole Bible, through the, you know, from the beginning to end, that common thread of redemption, of understanding why we do the things we do, of sin, and how sin distorts relationships, and how it has destroyed really good things. And and so the the pendulum that you're talking about swinging, for me, I think, yes, the pendulum has swung so far to one side that it is promising something that cannot be delivered. That it cannot deliver. That it cannot deliver. Ultimately. Yep. And I do I do want to say one thing before we wrap up.

SPEAKER_01 58:30

Because I know we're getting a little bit more I've got one more topic. But okay, go ahead.

SPEAKER_00 58:37

We medication, I know we don't we don't have to dive, we're not gonna dive super deep on this because neither one of us are doctors, and and I don't fully understand or even pretend to understand all the ins and outs of who needs to go on medication and who doesn't. It helped me. The the the medication I took was called an SSRI. All it did, all it does was all it does is keep the serotonin that we naturally produce in your brain instead of you losing it. I was losing so much serotonin chemically, and then what that does, it's a selective serotonin re-uptake inhibitor, and it actually helps you keep it. And that was the the genesis to being able to get on the right path to be. It was almost like it showed me the right path to start walking, so then I could start, I could start seeing things a little bit differently. Um, so it it it helped me. Now I it again, it is not the thing that is going to heal me. Because even if I even if I keep my serotonin and I feel that chemically I'm balanced, I'm still a sinner and I'm broken, and I need direction and I need ultimate truth. Yeah. Just because you take medication, that doesn't mean you're fixed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:25

Yeah. I I don't know enough about that world to speak to it intelligently. What all all I know is that every time I see any kind of advertisement for an SSRI or some sort of mental health uh drug, that the quick speak, the fine print at the end of the commercial ends up in may cause severe depression. Yeah. Suicidal thoughts. Idea, like I'm like, wait, I thought that's what it was supposed to stop. And so I don't, I don't understand that world. Um, certainly I know people who who are on SSRIs or have been in the past and have a heard a variety of different experiences in that world. Um the the last thing that I would like to talk about, Big Steve, because the reality is there are there are there is a portion of our audience that struggles in mental health to the degree that they that they um they would they would maybe benefit from going and sitting across from a Christian follower of Jesus therapist that could help stand step in the gap and help break the patterns of this world that that their mind has become conformed to. There's also a group who they struggle with stress, with anxiety, with negative thoughts, with all these things, but but they're functional. They are there it's not a uh it's not a battle that has them um, you know, subdued, so to speak. But man, some tools would be great. Like how do we do how do we do this? Um, I heard this quote, I can't remember who said it, but it's the quote was hey, when we look at this next generation, it's not that they're weak. You know, they they get a they get a bad rap of being snowflakes and needing safe places and all this stuff. Well, it's not that they're weak, it's that they're they're growing up in a world of chaos. So like when you're surrounded by chaos, then specifically in the realm of narratives and um cultural movements, like there is there's so like how how do you know which way is up? And I think there's some I think there's some tools that we can offer that are for for that for the 60% that's like, yeah, I'm more anxious than I want to be. My emotions do this all the time. I struggle with negative thoughts. Man, it'd be good to have it be good to have some tools. And the the way that the way that my buddy Chad Wright says it is he says that um in general, people have an untrained mind. And I like that. Like I think, I think that is true. We train our bodies if we are going to go do something epic physically, right? Um, in the same way we train our bodies, we should train our mind. And um, but we don't much, and we don't teach that, right? And so I think one of the things that comes to mind for me is uh 2 Corinthians 10 verse 5, where Paul says, We destroy arguments and every lofty lofty opinion raised against the knowledge of God. So we're destroying arguments and lofty opinions that are circulating, that are raised up against the knowledge of God, that are contrary to the truth, contrary to the knowledge of God, and take every thought captive to obey Christ. And that idea of taking every thought captive is awesome to me because I know my thoughts. And dude, I have some crazy whacked out thoughts that are um that are not in alignment with the knowledge of God. And what scripture's teaching and what Paul is saying there is hey, we we take those thoughts captive. We bring them under our reign, we bring them under our control. That's what it means to take something captive, right? It's like you you you take control over that thing, and we take our thoughts captive to obey Christ. And so I'm curious your thoughts on that. Like, how do you view um the act? How do you practice the act of taking your thoughts captive?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:57

Now or then? Now First thing is I I recogni I I try to recognize what's happening. There there's a there's I have to be present enough to and self-aware enough to see to to think about what's going on in my brain. You have to have though a foundation to to compare it to, right? You need something to compare it to because if you don't, then that thought could be true or not true. Right? So how do you know how to how how to take it captive? And once you do, if you think about it, if you recognize what's going on in that thought, what do you compare it to? Well, you compare it to what God says. And so when I have a thought or a line of thinking and I'm caught on it, or yeah, if I'm caught on it, or it pops up, I will recognize what's happening. Now there are thoughts that go through all of our heads that we know it's not it's not something that we necessarily have to take. Oh, I'm gonna go get some food. You know, something as simple as that. Like you don't have to take that captive. Well, I'm not gonna say that because someone might need to take that captive.

SPEAKER_01 1:07:49

There's a lot of big boys out there that need to be taking that thought captive, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:07:53

So with that in mind, having having a foundation to to in a foundation of truth to compare it to, yeah, and that for me is scripture. That for me is was built over time by engaging in scripture, in prayer, in worship, in pursuing a relationship with Jesus. And when I look at it, it's it's almost like I take it to I take it to trial or I take it in front of the judge.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:29

That's exactly it. Right?

SPEAKER_00 1:08:31

And and say, okay, let's evaluate this based on these criteria. Yep. And if it if it's if it's found not guilty, great. Yeah. If it's found guilty, then you know, there's probably several things you have to do with it.

SPEAKER_01 1:08:52

Yeah. I I I I love that you use that analogy um because I think the reality is is that most people don't know what to do with those thoughts. And when they hear something like we take every thought captive, um, they think that it's like, well, we just have to force positivity. If it's negative, we have to, we have to overwhelm it with positivity, and that'll fix it. And that's not that's not taking the thought captive. Um, they'll think that uh they'll pretend that it just doesn't exist, right? They'll feel shame for having that thought. Like, oh, I should, I should not even have that thought. That thought shouldn't even enter my mind. It's like, listen, man, if you knew some of the thoughts that came into my mind, like it's some dark, messed up stuff. That's going to happen. What God calls us to is to take that thought captive. And it is, it's like, like you said, like you put it on trial. Like that's what you do with a criminal. Somebody comes into your house and they're not invited, and they're creating chaos, you subdue that person, you lock them up, and then you put them on trial. And you figure out, hey, did you have the right to come into this house? Yes or no? No, you did not. All right. Were you helpful? Did you enter trying to be helpful to my family and our circumstance? No. No, you're you're not you're not helpful. Not helpful, you're not trying to be helpful at all. As a matter of fact, you're trying to come in and cause destruction and create harm to my family. And you put that person on trial and then you determine they're either guilty, in which case they are expelled, or they're found innocent. And listen, sometimes thoughts are found innocent or found like, no, that's a thought that I need to pay attention to, even if it doesn't bring us all joy and happiness and unicorns and rainbows, because it's a thought of conviction. It's a thought of self-reflection. Yes. That is negative, it's a negative view of my actions, but it's grounded in truth and it's helpful for correction.

SPEAKER_00 1:11:32

And we call that a lot of time the Holy Spirit. Like that is the Holy Spirit identifying things in your life that are that it's uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:40

So when I think about it, big Steve, and we we can we can land the plane on this, and maybe we just do a whole nother podcast on this eventually, uh, on how to train your mind. But when I think about it is is it true? Is it helpful? And you have to like really ask, is it helpful? Like, not helpful for my positivity, not even helpful for my mental health. Is it helpful in light of who God made me to be and is calling me to be? Because it may be a conviction that isn't doesn't feel helpful, but it's exactly what you need, right? Is it aligned with God's word, God's word? Is it aligned with who God says I am? And it is is it aligned with the promises and the truth of scripture? Um, where is it rooted? Where is this thought rooted? Is it rooted in truth? Is it rooted in fear? Is it rooted in insecurity? Right? Where is this thought rooted? And then what action aligns with it? Is it a dis action, is it found guilty or is it found innocent? And do we expel it or do we embrace it and figure out how to um how to live and act and behave in light of a good, truth-based, helpful thought or emotion? And that's easier said than done, but whether it's that framework or another framework, there are frameworks out there that are based on scriptural truth that are aligned with the God's word that can help us in our pursuit of taking every thought captive, training our mind.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:29

It's good. Well, I think that's a good place to end this episode. Um, I will say, if there are listeners out there that have been struggling with uh suicidal ideations or going down that path, uh I would encourage you to tell somebody. Yeah. Tell someone uh today in your life and get that out in the open. That is that is a way that Satan and the enemy uh they they use that to take us out of the game. And uh there's just a lot involved there, and and we want you to get help in the way that is going to help you get out of that.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:17

So and there's and you're you're walking truth, that there's freedom on the other side of it. It's the very nature of that ideation is that it feels like it's permanent, yes, and there is no solution. That's right. And that is a lie. That is a lie. And there is freedom on the other side of it. Um it's it's worth the fight.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:37

Well, if you guys enjoyed this talk and discussion, um, it would really help if you guys liked and subscribed. And we want you to share this with people you think would benefit from it. We uh really enjoy doing this. Um, coming to you guys, we learn from it and want to keep doing it. So the way to do that is to um have some subscribers, keep keep things moving along. So, like and subscribe. We want to hear from you. Uh, leave a comment. We want to interact.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:10

All right, we're out.