“A Changed Perspective on Life: Funeral Industry and Personal Loss” | NGP #05

In this episode, we go inside the funeral industry to understand what it truly means to serve families during their hardest moments. From the day-to-day realities of the work to the deeper purpose behind it, this conversation offers a perspective most people never see.

But beyond the profession, this episode takes a personal turn—sharing a powerful story of loss that reshapes everything. It’s a conversation about life, grief, and how experience can change the way we see what really matters.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:21

This segment of the Next Gym Patriots podcast is sponsored in support of the West Virginia Tobacco Quit Line. If you or someone you love is ready to quit tobacco, you're just one phone call away. Train coaches are available to provide guidance, resources, and support every step of the way. Call 1-800-QitNOW for free coaching, helpful resources, and encouragement to help you break free from tobacco. That's 1-800-QitNOW to take the first step towards a healthier future. Mr. Hines, thank you so much for joining us and welcome to the Next Gen Patriots Podcast. It's a pleasure and honor to have you on here. And uh this is a little bit different setup than what we're normal normally do. Um this is uh out of our studio, of course, but this is a very special episode for me personally and close to my heart, uh, with a lot of the experiences and past careers I've had. And so I thought this would be perfect, uh, but also honoring Lincoln, Heinz, and the process. Uh so uh so people kind of give a little bit of a back history of you and kind of a little bit of a day-to-day, what you do, what's some of your hobbies, interests, things you do outside of your job.

SPEAKER_00 1:45

Sure, thank you for having me. Happy to be here. Um as far as uh hobbies, interests. Um I like to play golf, um, like going to the beach with uh my wife and kids. Um, I play saxophone, um, enjoy music, um, horseback riding, um, being outside. Yeah. And uh love the warm weather in summertime. Yeah, awesome.

SPEAKER_01 2:10

That's uh that's very key, key uh things that a lot of times families miss out on today's world. But uh we won't talk about your golf score. I won't ask you what it is, but uh thank you. I appreciate that. I'm sure it's better than mine. But uh, anyways, all right. So everybody has introduction, so let's kind of go through this a little bit on your career thus far and education. So you graduated from high school in 2005. Um, what high school did you graduate from? I was homeschooled. Okay. Um so graduated from American high school. Okay, nice. So then you started uh after high school working at a funeral home part-time in 2006 and began as a funeral assistant and became an intern. Um then you went to John Tyler Community College and earned an associate's degree in mortuary science. After graduation, uh, you took your national board exams and state board exams to become a licensed funeral director and embalmer in Virginia. Um and now your current job is the assistant manager and you're a licensed funeral director and embalmer um there in Virginia. Yes. So uh let's kind of take a little bit of a deep dive into this. This is quite the unique uh topic in itself, but also career that a lot a lot of people talk about. Um, so as you said you was homeschooled. Um, so what kind of led you in then after high school, getting into the funeral home industry and taking that intern position?

SPEAKER_00 3:35

Sure. Um, so dad being a pastor, um, we were, you know, of course, visiting funeral homes for visitation services of church members that had passed and and all. And so uh just kind of became interested in it, uh, not the typical profession that you'd be looking at. When I was a kid, I wanted to be an airline pilot, but that didn't quite work out. So um I was started getting interested in it. And so um uh, of course, we had a relationship with, you know, the local funeral home that did most of the funerals um in the church. And so um my dad talked to uh the owner and said that I was interested. And so it just started there part-time um when I got out of high school, and then it became a full-time um position and uh started an internship and just kind of went from there. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 4:23

Okay, so then you went to a community college. So what was that like? Was like a two-year program? Yes. Or okay. So then you graduated um from that. So did you have to go on to mortuary school or did you like was you able to do all that at the community college?

SPEAKER_00 4:37

I was able to do it all at the community college.

SPEAKER_01 4:39

Um there in Virginia? Yes. Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yes. Everything was done there. Uh and uh after graduate took my national boards and state state board exam and then became licensed. And so what's the process of schooling uh to become licensed in mortuary? Sure. So whether you go to a um community college or you go to a dedicated mortuary science school, um, you know, of course you have your, you know, basic classes, but then you go into um psychology of death and dying, um, you know, accounting, um, you know, history, uh, history of uh funeral service, uh, then you go into the technical, like the embalming and restorative art and uh things like that. And then you have to uh of course do labs. Um and you can either do that at the at the school or you can do it at a local funeral home. Wow. Um so that's how that goes. And then once you uh complete your degree, then you have to take the national boards, um, which uh consists of two exams, arts and sciences. You can take them together or take them separately. And then once you complete that, uh then whatever states you're gonna uh be working in, then you take that uh particular state's exam, and uh that's on state rules and regulations and laws and things like that.

SPEAKER_01 5:54

Now, is that through the school or is that something like that? That's that's the state. Okay.

SPEAKER_00 5:57

Once you once you finish your national uh board exams, then you go to your a particular state and go through their uh state board and take the test through there. And then once you do that, then you're licensed to practice. Wow. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:09

So it's a little bit of a process. It is. What are the what are the tests like hard level wise?

SPEAKER_00 6:15

Um well, to be honest, uh a lot of people that I was in uh school with, uh there was a lot of people failing uh the national board. So I was quite nervous about it, wondering what is it gonna be like. But basically a lot of it is um, you know, of course, some rules and things like that, but a lot of it ends up being like scenarios, um, questions like that. And so it really wasn't as bad as I thought it was. And then of course the state is your um localities' rules and regulations and yeah, um, those types of things. Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Okay, so then um, so the funeral home, I wanted to go back real quick. So the funeral home you work at currently now, is that the same one you started out at? It is not. Okay, okay. That's a different one. Okay. So then you got your state board exams, you passed all those tests. What led you to the funeral home you're at currently?

SPEAKER_00 7:08

Um, actually, I really wasn't looking, but the owner um a number of years ago, he just reached out to me and um we had lunch, and um then that same evening um uh he wanted me to come to the funeral home, and so brought my wife and children, and so we just kind of walked around, talked, and um the rest is history, and I've been there, been there ever since. It's locally owned. Uh, it's only one owner, um, no board of directors or anything like that. Wow so uh that makes it nice that one person makes the decisions on things.

SPEAKER_01 7:42

Yeah, yeah. I always I've seen this before, and and you may agree with me, but I feel like a good funeral home always brings together a community. Yes. And I don't I don't know if I don't know if our audience can see that, but I've seen that just on preference of different areas I've been to. Um, and I can see that in your area when I experience it there. It's all about community. Yeah, it is, it is, and you got to have a sense of it too, you know. And if you don't have that, then there's definitely a difference. Okay, so um we have a few segments here I want to kind of get into. Um, there's a lot of questions asked in this industry, and there's a lot of things that a lot of people don't really know about. Um, there's a lot of unknown when a loved one dies. Um, and so really, particularly in this episode, I want to hit some of those, but also go behind the scenes and uh so people kind of get a background of what it's really like. So to kind of give the set the tone, um approximately 56 to 63 million people die worldwide a year. Um over 160,000 deaths occur per day worldwide, and roughly 8,586 deaths are daily in the US. So with them stats in mind, I guess we start from the beginning. What is the process from the time the person dies till they are buried?

SPEAKER_00 8:58

Sure. Um, so it starts with the initial notification of death. Um, you know, if it's at the home, typically the family or one of the nurses will call, um, or if it's at the hospital, uh, then the staff would call us. And um, we're typically there um to bring them into our care within an hour or so, whether it's a day or night. Um, so that's how it starts. And then from there we speak to the family, talk to them whether um, you know, they're looking at a traditional service or a cremation service, and uh set up a time to go over arrangements. And then at that time, uh we go over information, uh compile uh the death certificate for them, file that for them, uh, get obituary information, um, take care of the obituary, and then talk about any type of services. Um then, of course, between um the arrangement conference and uh the services, then we take care of notifying um, you know, whether it's a cemetery, a minister, talking to the church, um, getting a grave opened, um, ordering flowers, uh, take care of everything in between that. And then we have the service. And then um at our funeral home, what we typically do is at the end, if there's flowers or things, uh, we deliver those directly to the family's home. Wow. And uh even after that, uh, we provide some aftercare um as far as um information families may need, um, you know, handling, settling the estate, um, questions like that. Um, and then typically, um, you know, as the one-year anniversary comes up, we send them information, um, send them cards, things like that. Um, so I think that's very important. And I always tell families just because the service is over, that doesn't mean we're not still here for you. And uh that's what it's all about is being there for them. Yeah. Um, because that's when things, you know, really sink in and things may really get difficult um after the service and everyone's gone. Yeah. So and of course, if they have family, that's amazing. Um, that support system, but we always want them to know that we're there for them.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

Yeah. Talk a little bit about so there's a big difference um with cemeteries. Um, so talk a little bit about that. Um, so obviously in in rural Appalachia, where I'm from, cemeteries are a little bit different from where you where you actually work. So talk a little about the process with cemeteries, kind of give us some background on that.

SPEAKER_00 11:20

Sure. Um, so as far as uh cemeteries, you have different types. You have uh church cemeteries or uh cemeteries that are owned by the city or county, and then you have um uh cemeteries that are owned by a corporation. Um, and we have um all of those in our area. Um so uh with the cemeteries, uh a lot of times we have to go with their schedule. Um we have a couple different ones that stay typically quite busy. And so um, of course, we schedule that with them. Um some of them take care of their own setup, uh, tent, vault, things like that. And then um the church cemeteries, of course, we talk to the church to make sure everything is set, but we take care of ordering the vault and the tent and doing the whole setup uh for there. Wow. Now you guys don't actually set up that, do you?

SPEAKER_01 12:08

Like starting the vault. No, we have a vault company that we use and they take care of all that. Now I know um in Appalachia a lot of times the same as far as especially if it's a family-owned cemetery, a lot of times uh the funeral will take care of them services because there's not an actual company that does that. But uh yeah, that's really neat. There's I think a lot of times people don't realize how much work is actually put into when somebody actually passes away. Yes. I mean, it's it's clockwork at times. It is. And uh sometimes you can get in pickles.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Exactly. That's for sure. Clockwork. That's for sure. It's it's definitely different because you know, just attending a family night or a service, yeah, you know, that's one thing, but seeing, you know, what actually it involves and getting everything scheduled and um speaking to the cemetery, the minister, the vault company, getting everything coordinated, yeah, um, definitely takes takes a lot of time and effort.

SPEAKER_01 12:59

With all that, then you got to get the the body itself prepared. Exactly. Um, which is a process. And so that kind of goes into my next question. Um this is a very uh common question. What is the process of embalming?

SPEAKER_00 13:12

Sure. Um so basically, uh embalming the definition is temporary uh preservation, um, and we use uh chemicals uh to do that. Um so basically um as as the uh blood is uh taken out, then the uh chemicals are placed into the body um using uh arteries and veins, and um that's how we get the the temporary preservation, that way families have time. Um that way uh the presentation is well, and um you know whether it's a delay for uh whatever reason, that way uh the family has time to plan the service and things like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:54

What uh what was when you was in school, like was you was that something you was concerned about? Was it an excitement? I know some people view that differently. Sure. What was your thoughts going into like labs?

SPEAKER_00 14:05

Sure. That never really bothered me. Um I do know uh some fellow classmates uh ended up passing out once they got into the lab and seeing what uh all is in involved with it. Um, but it never never bothered me. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 14:22

Yeah, some people and I understand sometimes you get into um interesting situations because not everybody comes in exactly in the best best state. Um and so that definitely can get intriguing and interesting.

SPEAKER_00 14:34

Yes, but anyway, and it's definitely an art. Um it is, it is an art. Um because you're right, not everyone comes in the best condition, um, whether it's through an accident, whether it's some type of trauma. Um, you know, it can definitely be interesting.

SPEAKER_01 14:48

Tell so tell me a little bit about a lot of people have asked me this question as well. Tell me a little bit about after the embalming process. A lot of people are like, you know, what do you just slap some makeup on them? Like, how does that work? Once you get them in the casket, what happens?

SPEAKER_00 15:02

Sure. Um, so before we place them in the casket, uh of course we get clothing from the family and make sure they're ready that way. Um, you know, the funeral home has a hairdresser, um, but family members sometimes have a personal hairdresser that they want to use. And so we allow them to come in, um, make sure hair everything is, whether it's a haircut or things like that. And then um we place them in the casket. And then at that time, we typically call the family to come in and uh that way they can view and uh make sure everything looks okay and if there's any type of adjustments, things like that. Um, and uh personally what I do is uh keep things very natural. Um you know, when someone passes, you know, things do change um with the body, and we want the presentation to be as perfect as possible because that's gonna be the last uh memory that a lot of people have as far as seeing them that way. Yeah. And um death isn't always a easy or pretty thing. And you know, when someone passes, it's not always the easiest to see. And so if we can make um the individual, you know, look look better than they were, um, that is definitely something we want to do. Uh when the families say when they come in and they say, you know, they haven't looked that good in in months, um, that's what it's all about because we want that last view that they have of their loved one to to be a good mental picture, something they can they can remember. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:34

It's you're you're saying you're having that, you're you're the goal. Um well, my my goal always was you're you're having you're trying to let them say their best way of saying goodbye in the last moment. Yes. Um, and so it's kind of a bittersweet it is actually moment. And I think that's what's most rewarding about it. Yes, you know. But anyways, so what does your day-to-day look like as a licensed funeral director and embalmer?

SPEAKER_00 16:59

Sure. Um, so that can uh be a lot of different ways. Um, if uh there's no there are no services or anything, you particularly no arrangements going on um that can involve um cleaning, uh, that can involve dusting uh the selection room, dusting the caskets and urns, um, catching up on paperwork. Um and of course, you never know when someone's gonna pass when that first call is is going to happen. And so um when that happens, of course, then we go um go to the home, go to wherever the person passes, um, bring them into our care. Um, you know, if there's embalming uh to be done, then I will take care of that. Um, you know, if there's cremations to to do, um, I do that as well. Um, so you just never really know what's gonna happen during the day. There may be nothing going on, and then you get two or three calls and and your day completely changes. Yeah. So that's what always may it is always interesting. Yeah. Uh because you never know what's gonna happen. So it's definitely not a traditional nine to five, and I have my my routine and you know, like a factory or things like that. Um, so it's it could always change.

SPEAKER_01 18:10

Yeah. So w how do you mentally stay focused while consistently working around death?

SPEAKER_00 18:17

Um, it's something where it's kind of walking uh walking a fine line because uh you have to keep your job at work, but then again, if you're on call, then that comes home with you. Uh you can be um at the park, you could be at a concert, you can be at home eating dinner and the phone rings, and it could be a death call, it could be someone having questions. Um, so you never know what that's gonna be. And um, whenever I take a phone call, it might be two minutes or it might be 30 minutes later and um you know, still on. Um, but you have to try to separate things, but you always have to, at least me personally, try to put myself in someone else's shoes. And um you want to be there and if if I'm on the other side of the table, are things being done the way that I would want it to be? Yeah. And so you have to, you know, and and with our community, it's a small community. Um, and so we get to know people. Um, and of course, we're always meeting new families, but unfortunately, a lot of the families they have been there time and time again. And so you develop that relationship uh with people, and you know, you see them out at the park or see them out at a restaurant eating. Um, and I'm really thankful for that connection that we can have with people. But you also have to be able to separate that as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

One thing you said that stood out to me was you would always you you think, and it's very true, uh, you what would you want on the other side of that table? And it's quite literally, yes, you know, even with the person that has deceased, um, you know, just because someone's there laying lifeless, um, it's almost kind of like the golden rule, you know, how do you how would you want to be taken care of when you have passed? Yes. Um, and so I think I think just in that, that can be rewarding. Yes, they have someone has the family has entrusted you with their loved ones, really the remains. Um, and uh, like I said, you know, that can be a very interesting situation. Definitely. But uh so what so we keep moving on here. So what is the hardest part of being a funeral director?

SPEAKER_00 20:38

Um probably when it comes to younger people, whether it's a um child, whether it's a teenager, um seeing different situations because you never you never know when your loved one's gonna pass. And you know, we all hope that um it's when they're 85 and have had perfect health and passing your sleep. Um, but unfortunately, that doesn't always happen and we never know when our time comes. Um, so having to take care of younger ones and teenagers and um, you know, situations like that uh I think is is the hardest because um, you know, when grandma's 95 and uh she's lived a long life, you obviously don't want to lose her, but it is easier that way than whether it's a child or you know, a mother that passes away at 30 years old, things like that. Yeah. Um that's probably the hardest part of it.

SPEAKER_01 21:39

I gotta agree with you. Um one experience we had had um was a young child, he had uh had a seizure, and uh you know it quickly went downhill from that. And you know, I I consistently think of that many times, you know. A lot of times you've had all them life experiences with somebody, and it's you uh it's like mentally you're prepared because. You're not. But when it comes to child, it's uh it's rough. Yes. It's very hard. Um it's sometimes it's hard to put in words. It is. It is. Um but what is one experience that you have had that you will never forget?

SPEAKER_00 22:17

Well, there's quite a few of those, and maybe uh one day when I retire I'll write a book and put things put things together. Um probably one of I guess probably the most memorable I I believe is is Duran services. And um, you know, you don't have to use the Hearse to take the casket to a cemetery to the to the burial. And so um, you know, a lot of people I've seen uh people use uh pickup trucks, um, use their own pickup truck. Um I have seen a casket put on the back of an 18-wheeler um of the truck, um, seen them on uh fire trucks for a fallen firefighter, um, seeing them um on the uh on a uh horse-drawn uh hearse or horse-drawn carriage. Um so seeing that probably is is one of the most memorable things um because celebrating someone life someone's life, that is that is so important to be able to remember them. Yeah. And of course, you know, there's always the interesting ones. Uh people um often ask, well, what is it like working at a funeral home and there are people in caskets, and uh, is it creepy? And what about at night? Um, does it bother you? Um, the funeral home that I first started at, um, I went in there one night, it was just me. We had a call, and I was downstairs, and I heard a door shutting upstairs, and it did it several times, and I knew it was just me in there, but I still don't know exactly what that was. Could have been a draft, you never know. But those types of things, you know, people always find is it haunted things like that, and you know, no, it's uh it's a place just like like any other building.

SPEAKER_01 24:11

Yeah. That that's uh that that will shake you in your shoes. Um yeah, that that's that would be hard to recover from. So how why do you feel there is an importance of a funeral or memorial service? Women remembering loved ones. A lot of times today and today's world, um, a lot of people don't really want to attend, even family. Uh they really don't even want to have a service, but not just as part of the grieving process, why do you feel like it's so important to have that service?

SPEAKER_00 24:45

Sure. And everyone is different. There are those that uh with their job, they may know everybody in the county. Uh, and there may be that person that works at a factory and is a loner and knows 25 people, but it doesn't matter who the person is, whether they're well known, whether they're not. I mean, every life matters. And I feel like it's important to remember that. And each service is different, each family night is different. You may have 75 people, you may be uh lined out the door and have 500. Uh, and that doesn't mean that the person that doesn't have as large a service wasn't any wasn't as important as the as the next person. But every every life matters, and um I feel like it's important to celebrate that, celebrate that life. Yeah. And for the family as well. Um, because when you don't have a service, you know, like you mentioned, it was it is part of the grieving process. Um, some people they need to see their loved one laying there as their way of coping. Some don't. They want to remember them the way they were. And there's no right or wrong to that. Each person is different. Yeah. But I I feel like it's sad to just kind of almost sweep it under the rug and um not have anything. It's sad to see to see that.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

Yeah, I mean, that was a life that lived on earth that endured hardship, yeah. Good times, and that's a celebration, you know. Uh I yeah, I feel the same way. So uh kind of moving on a little bit, talking about the grieving process. How do you think children should be exposed to death? A lot of times, um, especially today, um, you know, family or parents really don't want their kids exposed to it at all. Sure. What's your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_00 26:39

Unfortunately, death is a part of what we have to go through. Um, some experience it earlier than others, but we're all going to experience that at some point. And uh society nowadays, you're right, doesn't want to think about it. You don't want to think about your mortality and think about, you know, your your death. And a lot of times it just kind of gets put to the side, and that's something I don't want to think about. But we're all gonna experience that. And I feel like with children, um it's something they need to need to be aware of um because it's nothing to be scared about. Um, and that stigma sometimes is is there, and uh, you know, don't want to see a casket, don't want to go into a funeral home. And I get that. None of us want to experience this, but we are going to at some point. And I feel like the sooner it is um that the children are exposed to it, that I think it'll help them in the long run and not just in a state of denial. Um people ask me that, you know, and they're there are families that um they're perfectly fine with their children, grandchildren being in the room, um, but I see some where they don't even want them to step foot. And everyone has their own thoughts and that's that's their right. But I feel like the sooner that someone goes through and is aware of how things are done, I think that helps them in the long run uh to be able to cope with things. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:15

Do you feel like early on in your younger years where your father was a pastor, do you feel like that was something that that helped you cope and understand which led you to this career? Yes.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

Yes, because um, whenever there was a family night or service, I was there. And so I was never shielded from it. Uh it was just part of life and death, and that's something that you had to to go through. And so I I that's I feel like that's kind of where it started with me, and uh I was exposed to it um early on, and that's kind of how it led me to to where I am. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:52

Uh I think we both have a similar experience. Uh huh. I guess in my case, it ran in the family. Yeah. But uh anyway, so kind of moving on, so I kind of want to talk about cremation a little bit, and this is an interesting topic, yes, um, just because of how it's the the rates of it is actually starting to rise. Um, but I'm gonna go over some facts here. So over 1.5 million people get cremated in a year. Um as of 2024 to 2025, the U.S. cremation rate is projected to exceed 61 to 63 percent of all deaths, um, with projections indicating it will climb toward 82 percent by 2045. So I guess to kind of start at the beginning, what is the process of cremation?

SPEAKER_00 29:39

Sure. Um, so cremation is a little different because the medical examiner has to view uh in Virginia um to make sure everything is good and then um we can proceed. Um, and that is obviously cremation cannot be reversed. Um, so there's a little extra protection there to make sure things are done properly. Um and we have a crematory on site at the funeral home. So once uh someone is in our care, they don't ever leave our facility. Everything is done there. Wow. Um, so with cremation, um, that is done uh through fire, um, roughly 1800 to 2000 degrees is the uh typical temperature. And um after that process is done, basically you have bone that is left. And a lot of people you know don't realize that, but it's bone that remains. And so that is processed ground down, and then that's placed into whatever urn or container that the family has selected. And that process usually takes three to four hours.

SPEAKER_01 30:44

Aaron Powell What's the average cost difference between a burial and a cremation?

SPEAKER_00 30:49

So depending on what's selected, uh typically it's about uh less than about half than what a burial is. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 30:57

Typically, what is a burial as far as just uh just uh a guesstimation?

SPEAKER_00 31:02

Sure. Um depending on what you need as far as uh cemetery spaces, things like that. Um that can be anywhere from twelve to fifteen thousand uh for a burial. Wow. So I mean you're cutting that in half.

SPEAKER_01 31:14

That's yes. That's a that's a price cut. It is. Yeah. So why why do you feel cremation has become so much more popular in recent years, not just because it's cheaper? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 31:26

Sure. Um our uh cremation rate is um I would say probably 50 to 60 percent in our area. Wow. And our area has been more traditional burial. Um, but that is definitely changing. Um, and it you're right, it's not just cost, um, it's also just simplicity. Um uh some people they just want to be scattered at a place that they love, whether it's on the golf course, at the beach, um, in the mountains, um, you know, at home, at their home place. Um, so it's simplicity. Um, and then also um families don't stay in the same area like they used to. And so it's quite uh easier to uh have your loved one cremated as opposed to to coming in and doing a burial in a service. So there's a lot of different different reasons for for cremation. Yeah. And also um, you know, talking about services and things like that, um uh the time of COVID, I feel like brought that on as well. Uh, because when there were restrictions and you were limited to the number of people in a building um or at a service, um, that also changed as well as far as services and cremation. Um, because you know, with cremation, you don't have a time frame as far as a service. So if you're gonna have a service, that could be done six months a year down the road. And so um, I feel like COVID brought that on even more so, and then even sometimes the lack of services. Um, you know, when you would typically have a family night, a chapel service or a church service, and then you have a meal for the family after the service. Um, you know, during COVID, when you couldn't do that, um, I feel like people, uh, when they saw that happening and things, you know, that they couldn't do, then they started thinking, well, do I really need to do all of this? And I think that's brought about um possibly the lack of services as well as cremation.

SPEAKER_01 33:26

I wanted to talk about something here just briefly. So COVID, um, what was that like during COVID? You know, a lot of people said, you know, even after someone was deceased, the COVID was still spreadable if that person died with it. What was that experience like? Um, and how did that change what you guys were doing day to day?

SPEAKER_00 33:46

Sure. Um, the biggest thing was just the unknown because at that point no one really knew exactly what it was and how it could be spread. And so I remember our first COVID case at the hospital. Um, you know, the recommendation was to wear uh, you know, personal protective equipment, um, shoe covers, uh, gown, mask, um, eye protection, gloves, double glove. And so the the unknown was the hardest part because you didn't know is this something that I could get, or is it inert after a certain period of time? And so that that was the hardest part. Um, and another reason for cremation, a lot of times people just opted for that because you couldn't have a traditional service. Yeah. Um, so the first one that we had was a burial, but we um went to our crematory area, there's a uh it's enclosed, and so we put that individual straight from the cot from the hospital right into the casket and sealed it. Wow. Um, and of course, as time went on, then we had more knowledge as far as what was involved, and you know, if someone is not able to expel it, then you wouldn't be able to get it things like that. Um so it became easier um as time went on. But the initial of the unknown and everyone worried about it um definitely definitely was difficult. Was your guys' uh death uh percentage higher in that time or about the same? It was a little bit higher. Was it yes? Um, but I mean there's a lot of different factors, you know, that that could cause that. Um and then of course, you know, the concern no with wearing the mask and things, and so there was a shortage, um, shortage of um body bags, so it was a shortage of gloves, shortage of uh mask, uh, of course, at that point, um, you know, every wash your hands, hand sanitizer, and so there was even a shortage of that. And so um that that made that interesting as well.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

You know, this is gonna be a really weird comment, and especially for the audience, but until you work in the industry, you can really appreciate a very nice body bag. Yes. I have uh dealt with both, and there's a vast difference. And boy, when you go of a nice one that actually has good handles, yes, and uh has that protectant that you need. Yes. Oh man. That was definitely important to us.

SPEAKER_00 36:19

And if like I said, you know, when we didn't know about COVID and how it was, you know, spread from a deceased person, um, you know, we would uh use two bags if there wasn't a good one. Yeah. Um I I get it. Yeah. I get it. Sometimes you're like, does this really hold a person?

SPEAKER_01 36:34

Exactly. Yes, yes. It came from China? Yes, you're right. Until you deal with it, you don't know how that is. Yeah, yeah. So kind of moving on to the future of the industry. Um, where do you see the funeral industry heading to the next 10, 20 years from now?

SPEAKER_00 36:51

Sure. Um I I honestly don't know. Um, as we've kind of talked about lack of um services, things like that. Um it almost seems like death is an inconvenience to a lot of people. Um we have families that uh they call us, they live in California. My dad just passed away. Um, if you can pick up cremate, send the cremates to me, I'll sign the paperwork online. And I understand situations where that happens, but uh a lot of times death is an inconvenience. Um I've had families that you know delayed services because they were going on a cruise or they had a vacation planned or things like that. And I understand there are instances where plans can't be changed, but death doesn't come at a convenient time for any of us. Yeah. And um even with, as I mentioned, families not staying together, you have children, brothers, and sisters that are scattered all over the country and all over the world. And the service or celebration of someone's life isn't viewed as necessary or as important as it used to be. Um, of course, cremation is still going up. Um there is the uh thought as far as green burial, um, where there are green cemeteries, uh no metal, no uh man-made products. It's all natural, uh the body um just goes back into the ground naturally. Um, so that is something that people are starting to do. Um, you even have with cremanes um water soluble urns and biodegradable urns where they can be placed um into the water or uh buried and just go back naturally into the ground. So that's something that people are are like looking at, um, even as far as um you can take cremanes and make them a part of a reef um off the coast. And so there's so many different things that people are looking at, and people are looking for something different. Yeah. And um as far as a funeral home, a funeral home, of course, is necessary to uh complete death certificate, paperwork, um, filing documents, things like that. But uh another thing people are looking at is as far as um catering, things like that. Um that's kind of becoming more of a um request for families. Um so there's just so many different ways. So not so much a large uh spacious funeral home that may not be what is is needed in the future, maybe something smaller, a very small uh chapel or family room, um, things like that. So I feel like the the buildings and the structures will change um as time goes on.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

I want to go back to a few points you made. Okay, so with the green cemeteries, what's the legal process with that? I mean, that's pretty that's pretty vast differently.

SPEAKER_00 40:04

It is. It definitely is different. We have one that is uh about 30 minutes from our funeral home, and uh we've done uh quite a few burials there. And so uh what happens is um you still can have embalming, but there's no chemicals. It is a um eco-friendly type of fluid. Um so embalming can still take place, but just not the traditional fluid. Um and uh the caskets uh they have to be completely wood, um, no metal uh parts, and also um you can use a burial pouch that's biodegradable, a shroud, um, no vault is used, and um that person is placed into the ground. Um they have two options. You can either buy a space where you have that uh forever, or you can actually purchase a space that you have for 75 years, and after 75 years, and after that person has gone back to the earth, then it can be resold. And so that is another thought as far as land. Uh, because of course, cemeteries, you know, depending on how large they are and what they have as far as expansion options, they'll eventually run out of space. Yeah. And so um, that is something with green burial that you can have reusable uh spaces. Now, what's the cost cost difference with that? It's it's about the same price, uh, because that sometimes is a thought. Well, if we're going for green burial, is that cheaper? Is that gonna cost me less? Well, it not necessarily is. It's still about the same cost, it's just a different method of disposition. And this cemetery they use uh natural rock um for the uh monument. So it's not a traditional headstone, they use natural rock. Um Wow, that's amazing.

SPEAKER_01 41:55

Now, uh one thing I want to touch on is what about the embalming fluid? So you said it was eco-friendly.

SPEAKER_00 42:01

Explain that a little bit. It's it's basically just natural natural types of ingredients. Really? Um, so as far as the preservation of of an individual, that's not going to be there because chemicals obviously are different than natural ingredients. Um but it's almost um more like what the Egyptians did um with their embalming and use um you know, natural ingredients like that.

SPEAKER_01 42:29

Um that's amazing. Yeah, that's that I have not heard that method yet, but uh, I'm sure as time comes on that will be more popular. There's almost a business sense to it. 75 years? Yes. You really could uh whoever owns that could be making some good money if they're young.

SPEAKER_00 42:47

Yes, yes, and it takes time because uh it is definitely different. So that's not something that everyone is going to want to do. Yeah. So it's gonna take time, but I think eventually that will become uh more and more of a necessity. Wow.

SPEAKER_01 43:03

That that is that's amazing. So what are some things that are advancing in the funeral industry, especially with technology, that you've seen a difference?

SPEAKER_00 43:12

Sure. Um well one of the things is just simply um, you know, video and a service or streaming, uh, because during COVID, we started video in all the services um because of um capacity uh issues and and regulations. Uh so we started video and all the services, and we still continue to do that. Um, you know, that way if someone wants to go back and look at it or they can't be there physically. Um that's kind of become a thing, live streaming, things like that. And then even with technology as far as an obituary, um, because most people they are not going to uh use the newspaper nowadays, um, because it's gotten so expensive. Uh an average obituary uh can cost you six, seven, eight hundred dollars. And um Um of course the newspaper isn't quite circulated like it used to be, and people get everything on their phone, on the website, or things like that. And so um that's become um more so nowadays is you just put the obituary and I'll just text you the link and uh we're not gonna use the newspaper. So that's uh social media as far as obituaries is even uh becoming more prevalent. Wow. Wow, that's amazing. Anything within the embalming process or preservation of the body? Um not necessarily, of course. Um, you know, the type of embalming machines, um, that method can change. Um with cremation, um, the units that are used, um, they are becoming um more so with technology. Okay. Um typically with cremation, uh, takes three to four hours, and the operator checks on it periodically just to make sure everything is operating properly. But some of the new machines, everything is um computerized. Um, you can check it with an app on your phone and basically can just run itself. Um Wow. That's amazing. That's probably uh one of the biggest things with technology.

SPEAKER_01 45:08

Yeah, because that saves a lot of time and it's time efficient. Yes. Wow. That's neat. Yes. Um so how are methods changing and what is done with the body uh before and after?

SPEAKER_00 45:19

Anything besides that? Um there is one thing that uh some um states are doing is um alkaline hydrolysis, um which is liquid basically aqua cremation. And so you use um fluids and chemicals to um take care of the body. And so instead of fire um leaving just bone as remnants, uh then the chemical will leave just bone as remnants. That process takes longer, uh, depending on the machine that you have, uh, that can take 14 to 18 hours. And that is something that is not legal in a lot of states um because you have to the remnants actually have to go through the uh sewage system. And so a lot of uh local cities or counties, they're not equipped to be able to handle that type of uh disposal.

SPEAKER_01 46:15

So what what kind of machine is this?

SPEAKER_00 46:18

Uh so basically um you just put it's almost like more of like a tray where you put the individual in, and it's just like a fluid chemical bath, and uh that's where they remain until the bone is left, and then you process that um by grinding up. How new is this concept? Couple years, longer? I think it's been maybe four or five years, something like that. Um Virginia still has not adopted it. Um but you know, I think that may become something that you know we may look at, yeah. But um the cost of the machine um is several hundred thousand of dollars. And because of the time frame um of the process, that may not be something that um is really feasible for a lot of people. Um the one thing that is a plus for that is some cities or counties with a crematory, you have to have a stack um that is above the building. And so uh some cities or counties don't allow a stack um for whatever reason, whether it's uh appearances or things like that in their code. And so um with this a type of method, the only thing you would know is there would be a unit outside of the funeral home that typically looks like an AC unit. And that would be the only thing you would be able to recognize that they're doing alkaline hydrolysis. And so in that case, and if there's city requirements, that may be a good thing. Yeah, um, but yeah, the technology is just still isn't isn't there at this point.

SPEAKER_01 47:57

Do you guys save is there a money cost on the business side of it? Do you guys save money doing it that process besides cremation itself?

SPEAKER_00 48:05

Um I don't know exactly what the compared cremation and alkaline drives is. I don't know those exact numbers. Okay. Um I think eventually as technology uh gets better and the cost come down, comes down, it may uh be something that's um you know more effective to do it that way. But yeah, I don't know exactly what what that is. And um probably the other thing that is changing is as far as human composting, um, you know, which is similar to green burial, um, but um you can uh you know just have a wooded area, a forest, and uh use use it like that, um, you know, whether it's a a full body or cremation.

SPEAKER_01 48:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 48:50

Um so there's a lot of lot of different things that that are coming. But um, like I said, those two options in Virginia, they're not considered a legal method of disposition. So that's the other issue, is um that does take legislative um rules and changes to be able to do that.

SPEAKER_01 49:07

Yeah, yeah, especially with it being um you had to be equipped equipped um with like the the sewer, you know. That's that's very toxic. It is, it is. Um, and you know, that that's running through people's pipes and be pretty deadly. Yes. Yeah. So I understand and get that completely. Um, what what roles do you feel like social media, because social media has changed so much, especially today. What roles do you feel like social media plays in how people grieve today?

SPEAKER_00 49:37

Well, uh, simply put, you can Google. Uh you can Google anything and everything, um, which can be helpful in some ways, but uh sometimes the information you get on there isn't uh exactly accurate. Um so that can definitely be be a good thing, but it can be a bad thing as well. Um and you know, as as I mentioned, you know, with no services, things like that, some people, well, I'm not gonna go there, but I'm just gonna watch the service. And I understand that, but just watching a service or watching a uh memorial video on social media isn't quite the same as as being there in person. And I know uh instances where you can't do that, but um, you know that that uh and the other thing also would be as far as um, as I mentioned, we do aftercare at our funeral home. And so um we actually um this year have put out an app to where people can download an app uh to the uh for our funeral home and they can fill out a um questionnaire if they want to do a pre-arrangement and we get initial information, then we reach out to them and set up an appointment to do pre-arrangements. Um and then even, you know, questions, commonly asked questions, or um, you know, what happens after someone passes, you know, things you need to handle. Uh you can get all of that on the app. Um that's awesome. So that is definitely something that can be helpful. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Yeah, I've never heard of that. That's actually a very smart method. Yes. Yeah, that's awesome. Have you guys had a good outreach with it? A good We have, we have. Okay. Yes. Yeah. Wow.

SPEAKER_00 51:22

How long has you guys been doing that? Uh it's been, I believe, uh the first of this year is when that started. Wow. That's awesome. Yes. And that's uh people have seem to seem to like that.

SPEAKER_01 51:32

Yeah. So kind of moving on to because this can be a a touchy situation, especially locally, uh, wherever you live. Um, but um, you know, looking at a good funeral home, you're entrusting so much. Yes. You know, you're with your loved one, you're trusting literally their body, but also what the service looks like, um, even at a church. Um, so what's your recommendations for when looking for a funeral home?

SPEAKER_00 52:02

Sure. Um, probably my first thing would be is to look for a locally owned funeral home. Um, there are funeral homes that are owned by a corporation, um, and they can do a service just fine, but I feel like a locally owned um is is the best option. Um, you know, say you can get a funeral at any funeral home in your area, you can get a cremation, you can buy a casket from anywhere, but it's the little things that makes the difference for for a funeral home. And um as I mentioned before, you know, we have a lot of families that have been there time and time again. And um having that reputation and you know, when they say you're the one we're gonna call, um, that is showing a lot of trust uh in us. And that's something that that I take very important. Um, it's very important to me. Um, because you're right, it it is you're they're entrusting their loved one to us. And it may sound like it's a cliche, but it's it's very important. Yeah. Because if they don't trust us, then you have a big problem. And so um, you know, it's the little things that that make a difference. Um for families. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 53:23

In your opinion, what separates a good funeral home from a bad funeral home? Sure.

SPEAKER_00 53:30

Um I think putting yourself in someone's shoes and showing real care and where it's not just a job to you. Um, that that it's your calling and that's what you're supposed to be doing. And uh we have a lot of good part-time people um that work for us and they're in the community. Um, you know, they are out doing things, they know a lot of people. And and I think that makes a difference too, is that um you see a familiar face, that helps too, because no one wants to be at the funeral home, whether it's their loved one or it's someone they know, no one wants to be there. And I totally understand that. Yeah, but our job is to make them more at ease, to make the situation better. And for me personally, that is the biggest compliment that that I can get is if a family after arrangements or after a service, when they tell me you made a hard situation easier on us, or they say, I I was worried about this, but it wasn't as bad as I thought the process, and you made it easier, and that's what it's all about. Um so you know, our I can't do it by myself. We have a lot of good part-time people and support staff, and um it's it's uh it's definitely difficult at times, but um having uh having good people makes a huge difference.

SPEAKER_01 55:05

Yeah, professional too. Yes. That makes a big difference too. What stands out to you the most about funeral homes, um, especially for the one you work at? What stands out to the most with the funeral home you work at um that you would recommend to anyone?

SPEAKER_00 55:22

Sure. Um, even um it's the little things that that make a difference. Um, you know, one thing that we do is we do a memorial blanket. Um, we use um the company out of North Carolina and we uh send a picture, and there's a lot of different options for backgrounds. Um we just um take somebody's hobby, put a picture in there, and then they send that to us the next day. And so we hang that up for the for the family or for the service. Um and little things like that um make a make a huge difference. Uh, we're the only one in the area that does that. Um even something as simple as when we uh are on a call, uh, once we have the individual on our cot, uh we make the bed and um you leave a rose on the bed. And even something as simple as that. Wow, it's uh artificial rose, but uh just little uh gestures like that, I feel like are important to show the family that we we do care. As I mentioned, you know, being uh having genuine care makes a difference. And uh we want families to know that this isn't just um we're trying to get done with your service and on to the next one. And I know it gets busy um and sometimes it's difficult, but each family is important to us and to show that care is is what makes the difference.

SPEAKER_01 56:46

Because they'll always go back and remember those little things. It'll be that rose on the bed. Exactly. It will be that that last conversation they had with you after the funeral when you give them the flowers at their house. Exactly. Those are the things that stick out. Yes, so true. So you've had quite the accomplishments in your career. Um, and a lot of people may say, How can you have quite the accomplishments, you know, in in this kind of career? But there's a lot of things um that you can accomplish, awards, many different things that are very rewarding. So in the past few years, you've had quite the opportunities uh with a few different things. So kind of walk us through how you got to that point, but also what kind of awards you got and uh currently what you're doing now.

SPEAKER_00 57:30

Sure. Um, so um, of course, you have state and national associations um that you can be a part of and you know, member of those. Um, but uh in the last few years, uh, I guess it was back in 2022, um, Governor Yuncan appointed me to be on the state board of funeral directors and bombers for Virginia. And um there are uh funeral directors that are a part, and then there are two citizen members. Um, and so having that opportunity has been uh tremendous. Um it's not always easy. Um being the board and a part of it, uh, you have to uphold the rules and regulations. Um, you have to have have the hard part of if if there's complaints from the public or things like that, we have to investigate. Um staff does an amazing job of of doing that. Um so sometimes there are hearings, you have to um bring down monetary penalties, um, fines, you have to, um, sometimes suspension of license, things like that for a director, even in even funeral home establishments. Um, so that's not always easy, but uh we have to be held accountable. Yeah um because the funeral industry, there have been some bad apples, and there's been a lot of issues. Um sure most people have heard in in Georgia and the the cremations that did not happen in the bodies found in the in the uh in the yard of the funeral home, things like that. And there's so many things that have happened over the years that can give the funeral industry a bad name, and there are some bad uh funeral directors and and those that have done done completely wrong things, but there are a lot of good funeral directors, those that care, funeral homes that care about their families. And so we have to, all myself included, be held accountable. Yeah. So that's what the board does. Um, a lot of interesting cases, things like that. But um being able to do that and see what goes on behind the scenes as far as license, licensure um, you know, applications, uh, frigate in education um providers, uh things like that, that's really been a good experience to be a part of the board. Um and then through that, I've been able to go to the International Conference, uh, which is the uh company that makes and develops the national board exams. And so being able to see what goes on with that and how they come up with the exams, uh things like that, um, has definitely been been interesting.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:15

Wow. Wow, that's actually really neat. Wow. So uh you I know you had uh recently, I don't know if it's been the last few years, you had won some awards. So talk a little bit about that. Am I or am I right or am I wrong?

SPEAKER_00 1:00:28

Um no particular awards, just I thought I thought you had just being um being a part of the board um has definitely been been a thing. Um president of our local association as well. So that's probably what what it was. So uh doing that has uh you know definitely been a good experience as well. Um and and getting together to get ideas from other people um makes a big difference.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:52

Yeah. It's uh it's a quite the honor at a at a young age still, you know. There's you always can say there's plenty of qualified people, but when you're asked to be in those positions, it's definitely quite the honor. But uh all right, so to kind of move on to this next section. Um this part of the story uh and of this episode uh means a lot to me, and I know it means means a ton to you. Um, but I thought there was such a necessity behind sharing this story. Um it's not just a story, but uh truly has changed so many people's lives in the process of of everything that happened. Um and so I first off want to say thank you so much for taking the time to share that story. I know it's not always easy, um, but it's definitely something that should be heard uh and and you are his voice till to this day. Um so uh for the audience that doesn't know, um Lincoln Hines was your son uh that passed away last was it June? June June. Yes. And so kind of walk us through how it all started, um, and just kind of you know, give us a little kind of just a breakdown to kind of understand how it all unfolded.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:06

So uh back in uh 2023, um in the the earlier part of 2023, um my wife had noticed that um his neck uh there was a lot of swelling. And um I was at work and uh she had sent me a picture and she was like, Do you think we should get this checked? And I said, probably so. Um so she took him to the pediatrician, and um when he saw it, he knew something wasn't quite right. And so uh he's like, I'm going to uh get you set up at the hospital to get some scans and x-rays done. Um so we did that and um at a local hospital and um really didn't see anything going on, um, but we knew there was still some problems, so they sent us over to um cross the mountain um to the University of Virginia um to the to the children's part of that hospital. And so um did some tests, didn't know exactly what it was, thought it might be an autoimmune disease, things like that. Um and so uh after one of the tests, um uh Candace had dropped me uh back off at work uh because we'd gone uh to the appointment, and um it was maybe 20 minutes later she called me and uh she said they told us we need to come over back over. And so at that point we knew something was definitely wrong. Um he was admitted to the hospital, and it still took a day or two to get it finally figured out. Um, but um later that week that we found out that he did have um leukemia, um T cell leukemia, ALL. And um, so at that point, uh we started uh chemo treatment. Um of course it was difficult on him. He lost his hair, um, a lot of hospital visits back and forth, things like that. Um but he uh was in remission and um was was doing pretty good with it. Of course, there were checkups and appointments and things like that, and we had to be very careful um to make sure, you know, he you know didn't get sick and things like that. So we really tried to protect him um because a fever couldn't land him in the in the ER at any time. And so um, you know, we kind of went through things, you know, it wasn't normal, but it was better than it was, but um then it eventually did come back, and um because it was so aggressive, um the discussion was to get a bone marrow transplant um to try to um take care of it. And so um I have two other children, and um my other son, uh he who which is older, um, he was actually a perfect match. And so uh we started that process and uh we're planning to do that at uh Cincinnati Children's Hospital. And so uh we went up there and uh basically um was moved up there for for a while and stayed at the Ronald McDonald House, which which they were amazing. And um once we got up there, uh then we saw and they saw that it had come back. And so, of course, at that point the bone marrow transplant was not an option at that point because uh had to get him back into remission. Um, so we uh spent time up there, uh, did a treatment plan, um, and uh it was it was doing okay and uh just kept coming back. Um and so went back and forth between Cincinnati and UVA. And uh then the last time we went up to Cincinnati. Um, you know, things were looking good, and we're gonna try for the bone marrow. And then uh when we got up there that day, uh we we went, uh, they did uh labs for him, and uh we were getting ready to uh to check in and they called and said that it was back again. And so um, of course, he was uh placed in the hospital at that point, and um he went through a lot of different types of chemotherapy, some uh more more potent, more toxic than others. Um so it definitely hit him hard, and um he had a lot of a lot of hard hard moments. Um but at that point, um I guess this was into to 2025, the first part of the year, and um they said there really wasn't anything else that they could do. And so at that point, um they were able to plan and make a wish trip um for us. We went to Florida, uh, flew from Cincinnati down to Orlando, and we spent a week there. And um, then once we got back, uh the discussion was do you want to stay here or do you want to go home under hospice? And um that was a no-brainer for us. We wanted to be at home. And so uh we came home, uh I guess it was in May, and um the community they did a um parade for us. It was just supposed to be uh some of my coworkers um coming by to welcome us home. And then I get a call from uh one of the deputies from the sheriff's office, and he was like, Hey, this is what we're doing. And uh it was definitely overwhelming. We had um over 200 uh participants that uh came right by our house, um, right up our road, and uh there were motorcycles, there were jeeps, uh trucks, vehicles, uh fire trucks, uh police vehicles, uh, there was even a horse in the parade and tractors. Um, so he was able to sit on the front porch and he was able to see the whole thing. Um, so having that um community um support uh was absolutely amazing. And so he was able to to enjoy that. And um the last the last uh weekend that we had, um, hospice had come in and he wasn't doing well at all. And there was an event uh that we were going to go to uh for um pediatric cancer patients and their families, and uh was about two hours away. And that morning he woke up and he was jumping up and down and he was he was doing good, and even the hospice nurse was surprised. And she was like, Well, everything's um in order. I've contacted the local hospice um company there um if something happens, and so we were able to go have have that um that weekend. Um that last night was was hard. I think he was up pretty much all night. Um, and uh he was on um on on morphine um every hour or two, but um we were able to have that time as a family, and uh when we were headed home and uh we knew it was getting close, so we called the hospice nurse and she was gonna meet us at our house. And um we were about 15 minutes away, and he actually passed in in the vehicle. Um so um we went from there just directly to the funeral where I work at, and uh that was uh June 14th, and uh the service was June 21st of last year, and um it was it was an amazing service, nothing you want to have to go through, and nothing that we ever expected. Um but uh the the the outpouring of support um from friends um all over the country um and uh the community, um it was definitely definitely an amazing thing.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:13

Now, how old was he once he first got diagnosed with it back in 2023?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:18

It was a 2023, so uh he would have been two when he was diagnosed.

SPEAKER_01 1:10:22

Okay. Yeah. And so he was four once he once he passed. Kind of walk us through that. Um that's that's really um that's a really wholesome, wholesome moment, uh, especially him passing with you guys there. Yes. Um did you feel a sense of of sense of comfort? Um and this is gonna sound weird to some people, but did you feel a sense of comfort that you was able to take him to where really you work every day?

SPEAKER_00 1:10:50

Yes. Yeah, it it was. Um, and it's something I was you know, you know, still think about, obviously, um, every day. And um some days it is hard going in there, but um, you know, that also helps bring him closer too. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:11:10

Yeah, that's a that's a special you know, a lot of people would look at that as uh not terrifying, but you know, it's that's always in your memory, but that's that's that's really a special bond to have that. Um and you and out of all this story, what has life what has his life taught you the most about it?

SPEAKER_00 1:11:30

Well definitely that um, you know, time is short. Um and you know, you have to take the moments, cherish the moments that you have because you never know when it's gonna change. And that's something um you never want to be in this position. You never want to bond and have a connection with other families through this, but that definitely happens. And through it all, it is a good thing because um having having that support, having, you know, families that are going through it, uh being able to to to talk to people, um, you know, this is what's happening, what what happened when when you went through it, things like that. And it makes a it definitely makes a difference. Um it definitely changes your perspective because the things that maybe were a big deal and bothered you, and I can't believe this, and things like that, you know, they're not that big of a deal anymore. Um yeah, you you learn to enjoy the the little things in life, and it definitely changes changes your perspective.

SPEAKER_01 1:12:44

It probably changed your whole perspective as a parent too. Yes. Raising kids.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:48

Yes, it it does. And I mean, um Candace did the majority of his appointments uh when I was off, uh of course I would go along, or if she was doing something, I would would take him and and all. Um, but it's definitely a family effort um because our other two were right there with us. Um, Brooklyn and Austin are homeschooled. And so um, you know, when he would spend weeks in the hospital, whether it was at UVA, and then of course we went to Cincinnati, um they would do their school there. Um, so it's definitely it affects the entire family and um it definitely changes things and um they were definitely a good brother and sister to him and help take care of him and things like that. Um, but it definitely changes.

SPEAKER_01 1:13:40

Now you said he his brother was a perfect match for him. What was his response to that?

SPEAKER_00 1:13:47

Um he he was nervous about it, yeah. Um, which I totally understand. Yeah. Um, but he was definitely, definitely ready to do it. Um they went through after we found that we all um got tested, and um he was he was the m perfect match. And so um he was ready to do it. Um we'd gone to Cincinnati, gone through the testing. Um that wasn't easy for him to have to do that, but he he made it through and you know they even asked him questions, things like that, just that he understood. Um so he he was ready to do it, but it just didn't quite get to get to that point.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:26

He what a what a um what an honor, but also the at such a young age, yes, yes. Wanting to do that, that speaks uh speaks volumes. Definitely that's an amazing story. Yes. How has this changed your perspective of death as a whole? You know, you've dealt with death for most all your career. How has that changed now?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:47

Um like I said, the hardest part for me has always been younger, younger people, children, teenagers, things like that. Um, those that uh had a life ahead of them and didn't weren't able to and to enjoy that. But um now losing losing a son has definitely changed um my perspective and um being able to help people. Um I actually met with a family yesterday that that lost uh lost a baby. And um I told them, I said, I I know where you're at. And uh like I said, you never want to have to bond with someone that way, but I know exactly what they're they're going through. I know exactly what's going on. And um that helps me to be able to to be there, yeah, been in their shoes and to be able to help them and you know, tell them if there's ever anything you need or need to talk about or whatever. That that's that's what I'm there for.

SPEAKER_01 1:15:53

How is this how has this affected your job as handling death uh just in general with your job?

SPEAKER_00 1:16:00

Sure. Um it's uh I have my moments. Um you know, one day's good, the next day it's not. Um and so even you know, some of the songs that we had at his service, um, you know, I hear those at services. And so uh that makes it hard sometimes, um, because I'm the funeral director, I'm the one taking care of the family, and I'm supposed to keep things together. Um had a service the other day that that had a song and it definitely got me, but thankfully I was in the music room and I had a couple minutes to get myself together and then get back out there and take care of the family. Um, so it definitely makes it harder at times, but um that's what we do.

SPEAKER_01 1:16:54

Yeah. I I kind of want to move on to this other area of this, um, because it's not just with this situation, but many situations people often uh find that they can't they can't handle death and they find it unbearable. How was you able to wrap your mind around everything and really really get to where you are now?

SPEAKER_00 1:17:16

Sure. Um God's the one that brings us through. Um because of course there's questions, you know, you ask why. I mean, from the beginning, why, why us, why him? Um, that's not how it's supposed to be. And then, of course, you know, when we got the news that you're either gonna stay here, he'll pass here, you go home under hospice, he'll be at home. And, you know, the questions continue, why do we have to go through this? Um, but with light of prayer, you just have to let it go, put it in God's hands, and that's easier said than done. And just because you do that doesn't mean that everything's perfect, you know. Um June 14th this year, of course, will be one year, and um it's not an easy thing, and it doesn't mean time time will make things better, I feel like, but it's never gonna go away. It's something that we'll always have. Um a wife and I will always have, the kids will always have, um, grandparents, uh, family, friends, it it'll always be there in different different uh levels. Yeah. But um you have to take take the bad and turn it into good. Um we had so many people that um reached out to us um in our community, you know, until you start going through this, you don't realize how many children are affected by this. Uh, you know, you you might see the um see the picture of the the child with cancer and you know has no hair, but until you're there, that's what makes, you know, that's when it brings it home. And um so many people reached out to us, so many people helped us, different organizations locally, um, nationally, and our whole goal is to turn this bad into good, um, being able to help um other families um going through this. Uh, we just had another family in our area, I believe it was early this year, where their son was diagnosed uh with cancer. And um my wife has reached out to them and um let it, you know, let them know that anything that we can do, just being a sounding board, listening, yeah, uh whatever it is. And that's what you have to do is turn this, um, turn the bad into the good. Yeah. Um we work with uh different local uh foundations as far as um, you know, doing uh fundraising, um being there to talk to families, um, you know, speak at events, um, things like that. Um uh earlier this year we went to uh our state capitol and um worked with one of the foundations and we're there for childhood uh cancer advocacy day. And so um Candace and I and the kids, we went up there, and um, that was a great experience. We were able to speak with uh different uh lawmakers um about different bills that are um going through to help uh families monetarily, things like that. Um, because it definitely is uh definitely is a hard thing to go through with so many things emotionally, um, you know, and and even with finances and all, um because the bills definitely rack up. Um you're you're into thousands and thousand thousands and even into into you know, you can get to millions as far as treatment. Um and then um when I I was fortunate to be able to take off work uh when we went to Cincinnati. And so um I'm very thankful for that that we were able to have time together and we were able to go as a family. Um, but you know, that does have the issue as far as is working all. And so um I went um, this was probably about four or five months or so without um without working. And so that definitely definitely uh takes a toll on you. But um, you know, so many different people reached out um and helped us, and um, that's something we want to do is return that return that favor.

SPEAKER_01 1:21:32

Yeah. You you talked a little bit, and I know it it already is, but we've talked outside of this how music is is so important in in everyone's life. Kind of talk a little bit how you've been able to use music now as an outlet, but also um, if I believe, if I remember correctly, you played a song, a recording at his funeral. So talk a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:21:55

Yeah, music is definitely definitely an important part um uh of life. And um I I did um recorded a song the the week um of his funeral, um uh went up and uh recorded, I played the saxophone on that and had a couple others with me. Um I would have loved to have played it in the service, but I knew there was no way that I could I could do that. Um but music definitely helps. It brings back memories, um, good and bad. And um, you know, like I like I mentioned, you know, when I hear songs and services, um, you know, sometimes I have to turn away and and wipe my eyes, but um it also brings comfort and uh and and help to you. Um so music is very important, um, kind of an outlet. Um sometimes I just time to time to get away, just start playing, and uh definitely brings a lot of comfort, a lot of memories. Yeah. Um probably one of I guess good and bad is is our trip to Disney. Um he loved it, he had a lot of fun. Um so sometimes when you hear those Disney songs, it uh it's not an not an easy thing, but it definitely brings back all the good memories. What was his favorite Disney character? Uh he loved cars, he loved Lightning McQueen. Um, that was a huge thing. And even um, you know, with The Make a Wish, uh, we were able to um go through Disney, uh, did all the parks and um you know, got some of the pictures I have of him when he met some of the characters and uh uh Buzz Lightyear and Woody and then Pluto and all those things, and you could definitely see the the joy and the smiles on his face.

SPEAKER_01 1:23:42

Yeah. Yeah. Now was he was he able like to like enjoy it pretty well, like health-wise, see a little bit of a few. He was.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:48

He was. Um Cincinnati uh children's did an amazing job getting it all together. Um we didn't, of course, plan for any of that because the hope was to get uh get him better and come home. Um but when uh we knew the way it was headed and they said what do y'all want to do? And we're like, you like to Florida. And I think it was the next day um they came in and said, You want to leave next Tuesday? And we were like, sure. And we didn't even have suitcases because we brought uh our stuff in totes so we could get uh everything in our uh room with Ronald McDonald. And so we had to go out and uh we uh bought a couple suitcases and things like that, and they got everything planned uh for us, and um it was just a the amazing time. Um, you know, it was hard because we knew um kind of the way that it was gonna go. And so it was hard to be there, but to have the memories uh was definitely tremendous. Now, how long were you guys in Cincinnati? Um, altogether, I think it was about three or four months over a period of like two visits there. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 1:24:56

Now I know you guys have, as you've already talked about, you guys work with a lot of organizations now. Um talk a little bit about that. I know there has been some new things that have come, uh come about. So kind of share a little bit about that.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:09

Sure. Um uh we're working with with one where um you know we're gonna do a Christmas program. Um, you know, in it's gonna it's named after Lincoln, and um they uh do um Christmas gifts for uh you know cancer patients and their um siblings and even the parents. And so um they do a uh list, um, get a list from the family, um, take care of all the gifts um for the entire family, and then also give them a check um to help with expenses and things like that. And so uh typically, you know, probably be you know four to six families in our in our state. Um so it's all over, it's not just in our community, but it's all over the state um that we're doing that with.

SPEAKER_01 1:25:58

Yeah. Now, how can how can people outside of this find that organization online uh through social media, website?

SPEAKER_00 1:26:05

Sure, absolutely. Um so uh we have the Hog Farmers Foundation in Stanton, Virginia. Okay. Um that's uh one we're working with. Um and so many different different um places. Ask Foundation. Um, they do uh a lot of uh advocacy, uh, which is the group we went with. Um and it's one of those things that um we don't know where where this will lead. Yeah. Um I don't know if that uh eventually will be starting a foundation or just being a part of others. Um I don't know what it looks like down the road, but um you know, I know everything he went with through and how strong he was, and we're definitely not gonna let that go. Um, and I know everyone has their own thoughts and ways to cope. Um, because there are some families, you know, that may say, you know, I've been through it, I don't even want to hear the word cancer, I don't want to think about it. And and I understand that. Um, you know, that if that's how they cope, then that's perfectly fine. That's what they have to do. But with us, we're like, this has been our life for the last two, three years, and uh, we're not gonna let our chance to keep his memory alive and to be able to give back and to help other families and and to be there for people and support and help. And uh that's what that's what we're gonna keep doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:27:30

Yeah. And as as a perspective, and this is a this is a hard question, but as a perspective from being his dad, um, is he that encouragement now to you? All that he persevered, you may be going through a hard time, but do you look back to that? Is he uh what you think of sometimes when you don't want to get up in the morning and you're like, but you know what? What talk a little bit kind of go through that a little bit with your thoughts behind that?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:56

Sure, sure. And being as a um young Young boy, you know, he'd when it first happened, you know, he didn't understand. Um, he kept getting stuck with needles for lab work, and um he eventually had to get a pick line put into his arm um to be able to uh receive treatment. Um and then later on he got a port um put in. And uh the Cincinnati even had to have it taken out and put another PIC line in. Um so he definitely went through it a lot of um, you know, going through different surgeries and and things like that. Um uh he had to get spinal taps. Um uh and so he had to be sedated for that every time. Um so he definitely went through it. Um, you know, and at one point he was he was just like, no, no, no. And so that's the that's definitely a hard, hard thing having hearing your your son say no, no, no, and screaming and having to hold him down as things are are being done. And um, you know, it's it's it's heartbreaking to see. Um but he he fought hard. Um he was definitely a stubborn one. Um a lot of the nurses, they really had to work um to get get uh him to like them. And uh he was definitely a character, and they, you know, they really got to, you know, got to love him. Um there'd be times we'd be staying at the hospital and uh be 10, 11 o'clock at night, and they'd take him out and let him run around the hallways. And I just kept looking, are you sure about this? It's Lincoln, it's fine. You know, he he uh he definitely uh he had a good side eye, is what uh is what people remember about him because you know you'd have a a new doctor, a new nurse come in, he'd just look at you, he'd look down, ignore you, and it was over. So you really had to work to get his attention and to get him to to like you. Yeah. Um but he he fought hard and uh he definitely persevered and uh you know the plan uh plan wasn't there for him to to get better.

SPEAKER_01 1:30:09

But um But in all of that, you you know, you look back and you say, ultimately, look what he left. You know a legacy at such a young age and a message. Yes. Um and I guess that kind of goes into my next question. You know, a lot of times you drive down the road, you might see the St. Jude sign, um, or a local nonprofit organization. What is your message uh to those out there that you know may not have ever had experienced anything like that in their life? Obviously, you guys, you know, never thought you would go through that. Yes. What's your message for supporting those foundations and and just going forth?

SPEAKER_00 1:30:45

Sure. Um it they're definitely worthy causes. And um, you know, once you go into a children's hospital or into a clinic and seeing that, and um don't ever want anybody to have to do that, but when you walk in and you see all these other children, what they're going through. And we were fortunate, um, his could have been so much worse. And um you see children that are in wheelchairs and uh can't feed themselves and so many different things, and once you see that, it definitely changes your perspective. And um and that's something that we always try to do, is we were going through it, but there are families that had it even worse. And so you got to try to keep it in perspective. Um but once once you see that, and uh, you know, it it changes changes your whole mindset. And um, these foundations, they do a good work, and it's not just um financial um help, it's um having a support system, having um, you know, we were for fortunate to have um huge sports system of family and friends, but uh there are people that don't have that, and um these different organizations and foundations that that are there for them um not just monetarily, but also having someone to be able to talk to. Um, I know in Cincinnati and the Roland McDonald house where we stayed at, um, you know, Ronald McDonald, there's no charge at all. Um they provide uh three meals a day um in their in their uh dining room. Um there's just so much they do. And you know, there were people from all over the country, all over um the world uh that was at Cincinnati for treatment. Wow. And um what these uh places do are amazing. I know locally our McDonald's, um, you know, whenever you go through, they always ask, do you want a roundup for uh um UVA children's? And I always say yes. And um we always joke and say that uh whenever we do that, whenever we did that, that that would um pay for Lincoln's snacks and the kids' snacks when they'd in clinic for hours and he'd be hooked up uh for his chemo. Um, you know, it could take six, eight, uh, ten hours. And um they even something as simple as that. And that's the thing, is it may seem like it's a very small thing, but when you're going through it, it is a big deal. Um, you know, different uh foundations they would provide um all expenses paid trips, um, like overnight trips. And um, you know, the kids, they had a blast doing that. Um, we were able to talk to other families and things like that. And um and what what he has left behind is as I mentioned with the community. Um, I still have people that I that never that I don't know who they are, never met them, and they'll come up and ask, How you're doing, um, you know, how are you? How's how's your wife? How how's the family? And um, you know, well, we saw about Lincoln, or um, you know, so-and-so told me about it. And so the outreach is there. And um as I mentioned, you know, it's it's God that brings you through. And um people have asked us, you know, well, how do you how do you do it? How did you go through it? How can you still smile with what you're going through and what you have gone through? And that's the only way we do it, but being able to to give that to other people um allow us to be able to tell his story um is definitely a legacy. He's touched a lot of a lot of people in our area, and uh we're we're thankful for that.

SPEAKER_01 1:34:37

Yeah. You talk about McDonald's a little bit. Um, briefly, talk about his his obsession with McDonald's a little bit there.

SPEAKER_00 1:34:44

Well, he uh lived off of McDonald's for a long time. He loved McDonald's, chicken nuggets. There were times he'd eat 15, 20 at a time, and uh when we were in Cincinnati, I think we were there every day if if not twice a day. And that was about the only thing that uh would satisfy him. Yeah. Um, so and actually at his service, um we had our local florist um do some arrangements, and uh I went to McDonald's and got a happy meal box, and she made an arrangement out of that, and that was right next to his casket.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:22

So that was uh was that was that his prime order was the uh the nuggets?

SPEAKER_00 1:35:26

Yes, nuggets and fries, and they were the real fries because we try to get him fries from the hospital cafeteria, and he's like, No, he's like, I want real fries. So it was it was all McDonald's, and so we all kind of got tired of it, but yeah, whatever it took for him to make him happy, that's what we were doing.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:41

Now, was he the the apples kind of guy or the yogurt? Uh he'd typically do apples.

SPEAKER_00 1:35:46

Apples, yeah, definitely apples.

SPEAKER_01 1:35:48

Okay, yeah, that's that's a sweet memory. Yes, yeah, for sure. So as we as we kind of wrap this up, um, I ask a lot of times in each interview to get a different perspective of success. Um, you've had a wide range in your career, you've dealt with a lot, um, and especially within the last couple years, you've gone through a lot. How would you define success in your own words?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:14

For me, my success as far as my career is the impact that you do leave on people and and what you do for people. Um and you know, it can just seem, you know, like a just a cliche, but it's it's so important to me is being there to help help families. And um, I always want to to do whatever I can to help them. Um whenever I see them out at the park or at a restaurant, I don't ever want it to be, oh, well, I I don't want to talk to them because this happened or I did that and I'm embarrassed. I always want it to be where I have done my best for the families. And as we've uh talked about as far as experiences and and how that shapes you, um, you know, unfortunately, you have to go through things in life and um fire does sharpen, it does uh purify, and um you have to go through things to to be made into what you should be. And so um that's that's my whole goal is to be able to be there for families, to know that I've helped them through a situation, whether it's um you know, at the funeral service, whether it's afterwards, just uh, you know, an encouragement, um, I'm praying for you, things like that. Um it's my the for me success is uh being able to take care of families and and to help.

SPEAKER_01 1:37:47

Yeah. And that's a perspective that a lot of people don't see behind, but that's uh that's the ultimate ultimate goal. Yeah. All righty. Well, Mr. Jonathan Hines, thank you so much for joining us uh on the podcast. It has been a pleasure and honor to have you, and so we appreciate you making the trip down. Uh and uh greatly, seriously appreciate it from the bottom of my heart. And uh for you guys, we hope to see you guys again. And so until next time, see you guys in the next one.