"The Road to Creating Change" | NGP #06

From entrepreneurship and healthcare to public service and leadership, this conversation with West Virginia State Treasurer Larry Pack explores the experiences that shaped his journey and the lessons learned along the way. Hear perspectives on building strong teams, creating opportunities, leading with responsibility, and what it takes to move a state forward while staying grounded in faith, family, and service. This is a conversation about leadership, growth, and the road to creating meaningful change that lasts.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:22

This segment of the next Jim Patriots podcast is sponsored in support of the West Virginia tobacco quit line. If you or someone you love is ready to quit tobacco, you're just one phone call away. Train coaches are available to provide guidance, resources, and support every step of the way. 1-800 quit now for free coaching, helpful resources, and encouragement to help you break free from tobacco. That's 1-800 quit now to take the first step towards a healthier future. Mr. Pack, thank you so much for joining us. It's a pleasure and honor to have you, and welcome to the Next Gen Patriots Podcast. Um to kind of get this episode kind of started off here. We normally try to get some background information so everybody kind of gets to know you a little bit better. So, what is some of your hobbies, interests, things you like to do outside of your your day-to-day?

SPEAKER_00 1:23

Oh, sure. No, that's a great question. And again, thanks for the opportunity. We're looking forward to it. Thanks for coming all the way to Charleston. And uh I'll see you in McDowell County in a month or so. Um my um I think I think two things I like to do the most outside of here, maybe three things, is going to the gym, number one, uh hiking, and I love to read. So those are my those are my relaxation uh parts. I think the hiking part is just getting uh get into nature. Uh you know, every hike, uh you can do the same hike all the time, but it always changes, right? Do something something always different in the force. And so so I absolutely love that. Um gotta go to the gym most days and read anything that I can that I can find. I'm blessed with six children and they all give me books to read. Uh plus I read a little bit of uh other stuff. So uh I always have a book or two books going.

SPEAKER_01 2:12

Yeah. What uh what kind of hiking do you do? Do you go to like national parks, state parks, trails?

SPEAKER_00 2:17

We do about anything. So like if it's Charleston, it's uh generally Kenos State Forest. Uh Char Kanoi State Forest is uh is a is a jewel uh that people in Charleston haven't discovered yet for some reason. Uh so it's a probably 10 minutes from the Capitol, 15 at most, and a lot of wonderful hikes, and rarely do you see anybody out there. Uh we spend a lot of time in Greenborough and Monroe counties, and so my favorite hike down that direction is uh is Anthony Creek. Uh there's some trails around Anthony Creek, uh uh big uh blue bin and just absolutely just phenomenal. So a lot, you know, there's so many great places to hike in West Virginia, uh so many things outdoors. My wife and I did a lot of hiking last summer, really all around West Virginia. Uh so just love getting out into nature and love being places where cell phones don't work.

SPEAKER_01 3:05

Yeah, yeah, that's uh there's a beauty to that. Yes. Yeah, and just a clear mind from your day-to-day job. All right, so everybody has an introduction. Uh and so we basically we kind of just go through everyone's career and kind of just break it down. So kind of walk us through what was your first job like, what was your experiences, what was you doing at that time?

SPEAKER_00 3:24

Sure. So my family was uh um, I guess everybody's uh is an entrepreneur, everybody had some kind of small business, uh uncles, aunts, cousins, and so forth. Uh but my grandfather and and then my dad, they had sawmill business. So think about rough cut sawmills, not some of the fancy ones you have today. And so I grew up on a sawmill. Um and um you know, for 14, 15 years old, we didn't have a lot of uh lot of rules back in those days. So I learned to drive um by driving a log truck, um, which is that's how that's how I learned. So so you know, you you got to interact with the different people there. Uh those those those men on the mill taught me a lot about uh not only work but about life. And um it was just an absolutely great experience. Um being a young guy, you know, it was all strong back stuff, so they didn't let me on a lot of equipment, mostly because I'd probably tear it up, probably did tear a bunch of it up. But it was it was phenomenal. I did that until uh about halfway through the first year of college. Uh that's that's what we did. And so my you know, my uncles, uh, dad, older cousins, grandfather, that's what they did. In fact, my grandfather started out um in the sawmill business in Lincoln County uh in the in the 30s, and when he started in the 30s, his skidders were draft horses. His chainsaws were cross-cut saws. Real men back in those days. They were real men. Yeah, absolutely. Wow, yeah. Yeah, wow. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:54

So that was it was really uh yeah. Muscle and grit. Muscle and grit. Wow. It's crazy. Okay, so then after that, what led you into, I know that you was um you then got into accounting. What kind of got you into that?

SPEAKER_00 5:07

And so uh first year um uh first year college, uh time to start figuring out what I was gonna do in life. You know, pretty much worked at sawmill and played ball up until that point. Um and so I got I got offered a job in an accounting firm and and from a friend family friend who who could she could see better than I could that um uh there's really a lot of room with sawmill for advancement because of all the family. And so she offered me a job for counting firm. I didn't know very much about I didn't know anything about counting really. Um and she said I had to change my major to counting to get the job. So I, you know, you're you're 17, so what do you do? You just change your major one day and take that job, and then you go home and tell your parents, and I think my dad and granddad were mad at me for a while, but they eventually got over it. But that's how I started. So I worked my way through college at an accounting firm um uh entire summers 20, 20, 25 hours a week uh during college. Um once I um got out of school, uh then they hired me full-time, um, probably four or five years. By the time I was 25, 26, I was a full partner, and I just did that for 20 years and absolutely loved it. The only other thing I did during that period of time, other than have a whole bunch of kids, uh, was uh I was recorder for the city of Marmant for about six years. I got elected when I was 21, so it was my first uh first uh uh deal into politics, which is a great learning experience for a 21-year-old. Yeah, and that's that's quite the honor. So that was fun.

SPEAKER_01 6:30

Wow, that's awesome. Okay, then you went into uh health care, specifically uh seniors. Walk us through that. What was that entail?

SPEAKER_00 6:39

I was always a little bit entrepreneurial. That that again comes from the family, so so we did a lot of different stuff while I was accounting. You know, we had some some rental apartments and uh maybe a mobile home park, and we tried we tried lots of different businesses and so forth. But eventually I got the opportunity to buy into a to a healthcare company. Um, and uh they had some some uh nursing homes or uh skilled nursing centers in southern West Virginia. Um and first I went into I thought it was a business. I was into it about a year and it became a calling, got really attached to the to the folks we were taking care of, attached to my team, and loved it so much that that's really what I did full-time for about for about 20 years. Yeah. Wow. That's amazing. We did it all around uh West Virginia, basically all points of West Virginia. Um probably the closest thing to MacDow would have been either uh Bluefield or uh Monroe County, I don't know which is which ones are the closest. Yeah. Uh but but everything from northern panhandle, eastern panhandle, and everything in in between, and plus a little bit of Ohio and Ohio. How many facilities did you guys have? So we had around 20. Uh and then we did home health and hospital stuff. So we started out with three, I'm very proud of Stone Rise. We started out with three people, and I think we were about 3,000, but um uh we just sold a business and wow and I retired. That's amazing. Yeah, we're very blessed. God really blessed us. Uh we were in all the right places. Yeah. Uh had a wonderful team. Um we you know, my job was to enable the team to make sure the team had the resources they needed to provide the care that we wanted to care, and I'd be an advocate for them. And and I think we're pretty I think we were good stewards of it, and we worked really hard to uh to take care of folks, not just when they're in our care, but just through the transitions. One of the tough things when you're older is all these transitions, you know, something happens, it's emergent, they go to the hospital. Now what's next? Um so maybe they come in and it gets rehab and the and the win is to send them back home for another season of life. Sometimes there, you know, small number of people we have to take take care of uh in the center. So there you want to make their day as good as possible. Uh so it's lots of different deals, but it's really hard. Our our medical system is is so complex that it's really hard for, I think, particularly older folks, to um to get through all these different transitions. Um you know, governments may are just way too complicated. So our job, my job again was make sure that my folks had the team, my team had the resources, resources they need, but at the same time, advocate for the elder.

SPEAKER_01 9:08

Yeah, yeah. Simplify the process a little bit. Yeah. Okay. So then uh after the elder care, you said you retired, then you uh worked with Governor Justice at the time. So what was your your job? What did you do within that administration?

SPEAKER_00 9:22

Yeah, so the last couple of years that when we were in Stonrise, I I was in the or a year and a half, I was in the House House delegates. So that was my kind of my first entry out. By that time, all six kids were out of the house. Uh, and so we thought we had a little bit more time, and so tried that. Uh but after we sold the business, then Governor Justice realized that I had a little free time. I developed a fairly close relationship with him, and he asked me to come and join him. And the way he pitched it is, hey, come work for me for a couple days a week, and let's just see if this thing works out. And he said I'll pay you a little bit of nothing, and then we'll we'll see if it works out. Well, two days a week end up being six days a week, and instead of six months, it was two and a half years, and uh a lot of different things. Uh start at just senior advisor, which is kind of a jack of all trades. This needs to be done on Tuesday, so you're gonna do this on Tuesday, that needs to be done on Wednesday, do that on Wednesday. Of course, always give him advice. Um, and that was always just between us. Here's here's what I think. He would weigh it and then he'd make the decision, and we carry out the decision. But eventually it became uh to uh chair the Washington Economic Development Authority to also be the Secretary of Revenue, uh basically led the fight for the um largest tax cut in the history, uh led the fight to bring the legislature in after the DOWS decision to to close down the abortion industry and then fight through the legislature to make sure that we got the right got the right bill. So I feel like we got a lot of wins. Yeah. Uh one thing that Governor Jesse is really good about is selling West Virginia and giving us a good vision. And so my job was to you know to carry out that vision along with the rest of the team. So we we had a good run, we had a good time, and uh, you know, it's nothing like hanging out with baby dog.

SPEAKER_01 10:58

So now, now moving on to your current position, what was that like coming into as the State Treasurer? How do you how do you feel? What was the what was the feeling of then you know pursuing the difference from that administration to now?

SPEAKER_00 11:12

Yeah, I think um I think anytime you you get into a new position, you're not sure. So even with Governor Justice, it probably took me six months to be effective, you know, just trying to figure it out. Uh with Treasurer, uh when it became available, Treasurer Moore was going to run for Congress, uh I felt like it uh fit my skill set. Uh but but until you sit in a seat, you really don't understand what you're getting into. So I spent, you know, probably the first six months just learning the programs, uh getting to meet the team and understand the team and understand what we do and so forth. And I've I've really enjoyed that. Uh we've got a wonderful team here. We've got really good systems and structures. Uh that's been really set up by the last two uh treasurers, in particular John Purdue. Um he at John Purdue took in took over right after we had a lot of issues in this in this uh uh office. In fact, uh, you know, former treasurer, if you go back far far enough, lost a lot of West Virginians money. So so I think Treasurer Purdue put together a lot of systems and good structure and good team. Uh Treasure Moore added to it, and so my job is don't mess it up and try to try to move it forward.

SPEAKER_01 12:17

Yeah, yeah, keep the same pace, yeah. Okay, so I do have a question. Looking back over your career, what was one decision you made that changed everything for your career?

SPEAKER_00 12:30

I think the decision that was when when I realized from a healthcare standpoint that it wasn't a business that it was a calling. And so when I got into it, I don't think I really understood that. It looked like it looked like a business, I understood numbers and stuff like that. But once I got attached to the people, once a couple of things happened that made me really understand what the front lines looked like, I just fell in love with the front lines, fell in love with love with the people that did that, and fell in love with the people that cared. And then after that, I think I had an entirely different perspective about how to do that business and what should be done and how it how it should be done. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:11

Yeah, that's that's one thing you once you get attached and and really see the in-depth of something, ex especially with that magnitude of industry, um you definitely it comes close to your heart.

SPEAKER_00 13:22

It comes close to your heart. I feel like yeah, you know, I felt like we were the the leader in a lot of different uh initiatives in West Virginia. Uh we really tried to push the industry forward, uh, worked really hard on that, and uh I think we've got a pretty good legacy out there still uh with with a with a lot of people.

SPEAKER_01 13:38

Yeah. Okay, so as we move on here, um a lot of these these uh we have like segments, and so we'll move through here quickly. So our first segment, I kind of want to just walk through the basics, because a lot of the audience really doesn't know what the role of a treasurer is. So explain to us what is the role of a state treasurer.

SPEAKER_00 13:57

So I think a couple things to point out real quickly is every state treasurer's office, every state's treasurer has a different set of responsibilities. So with respect to West Virginia, we are the State's bank. We're we're we're a real bank, an act an actual bank. So we do the banking part for state government, uh, and it's a part that you don't really see. Nobody sees unless something bad happens. Right? So so you know, all the money coming in, all the money going out, all the money being invested, that's stuff that we do every every day. And you know, we have a huge state government, so it's a it's a really big uh big responsibility, big tour. We invest the state's money. So um we have an invest we and we have two boards to do that. We have an investment management board, and when you think about them, there's about $30 billion. We're investing the retirement funds. We got some other money, but it's mostly retirement funds, so I think teachers, state employees, judges, state police, on and on and on. Uh huge responsibility, right? Because you know, our job is to make sure that when that money, when that when that person retires, the money's there, right? And so we work really, really hard on that. We've got a wonderful team. We also have the short what we call the Bureau of Treasury Investments, that's a short-term part of our investments. So there's about 10 billion there. So that's basically the money that's the state has in all the various accounts uh that at some point they're going to need to spend.

SPEAKER_01 15:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:20

Uh so you m so you know a little bit of the rainy day fund, it may be the personal income tax fund, just a general cash flow of state government until the money gets where it's supposed to go. Uh so our job there is to get as much return we can in a safe way. Most of those earnings go back in the general fund. Okay. Uh it's kind of that monthly revenue report that the state does, it goes there. Uh unclean property is a really interesting uh part of what we do. And so that's basically monies that banks, insurance companies, oil and gas companies that businesses have, they can't find the rightful owner. So they're required to send the money to us, and then our job is to go out and try to find the rightful owner. So we've got almost 500 million, over $500 million of that money that we're trying to give back. So that when you see a like a public presentation where we hold the checks and all that stuff, it's not really so I get my, it's not because of to get get my name on it, it's to drive people to the website. So whenever we do that, it will drive more people to the to the website, and you can see that in the stats. So we try to go all around the state doing public presentations, you know, um try to hit every market at least once a quarter and kind of get that out. So that's an interesting thing. We do some re uh some retirement stuff for uh for state workers. They call it 457. So if people get to the point they can retire, they can invest more money in the retirement. We can't we we do that that part as well. We have the savings uh the college savings plans, the 529 accounts. Our job there is to our biggest job is just trying to bring awareness and get parents and grandparents to start saving money sooner. All right, start with $25, start with $50 a month, whatever it is. And so we've got 40,000 accounts, I think, in West Virginia, which is a lot. But when you think we've got about 280,000 students in K through 12, we've got a lot of room to grow. So we're continuing to push hard on that. We have a similar program for disability folks with disabilities, they call that West Virginia Able. So you so those are accounts are set up so that um, say, for example, my my my um cousin, my first cousin I'm real close to, is now passed, she grew up with Down syndrome. And so my parent, my grandparents, my aunt and aunt and uncle were always trying to figure out how to provide for her if something happened to her. And but at the same time, they didn't want her to lose the benefits that she would get. Well, you you had to go through a bunch of gyrations back in the day. The federal government a few years ago passed this, and now you can put so much money away uh to take care of that um uh family members disabled and and again not impact their benefits. So we like to work real hard at that. Most controversial thing we do is sub scholarship, educational savings account. Uh I think it's controversial because it's new.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:55

Uh I and since it's new and it's a it's a sizable amount of money, um the people who are for it are very, very excited about it. Uh but then there's a whole nother group that I think there's concern how how and if does it impact public schools, and also how and if does it does it fit into the state budget. So our job there is threefold. Administer the program, um advocate for the program, we believe in it, but at the same time be very, very transparent. So all the all the policymakers, the legislature, uh the governor, uh even outside people, they know where every dime's going, what's going for, so they can make the right decisions because ultimately it's it's the legislators, legislature's um decision how much money they're going to fund every year. And they've got lots of uh lots of needs, right? But they got to make it all in the budget and make the budget balance. So we spend a lot of time doing that. And then as a chief financial officer, uh anything that has a dollar sign on it that West Virginia does, we weigh in on it. Some we uh you know, we have direct authority, but others we're given advice. And in the private sector, the chief financial officer works for the board, works for the CEO, and government and provides information to them. And our role here is we provide information to the governor, the governor's office, we provide information to the legislature, and and we try to do it in a big picture way, not get down in the nuances, but take a little longer range view, but also remind um everybody that when you say yes to spending this, you're saying no to spending something else, and just trying to get them to to reflect and and think about.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

Yeah. So what does the State Treasurer actually do on a day-to-day basis?

SPEAKER_00 19:34

Well, day-to-day basis, it's it's a leadership job. It's i it it's it's really a leadership job. It's it's setting the vision, it's it's uh not it's keeping the team motivated, uh trying to tell the team where we're going to go. Uh you know, you can tell a lot by a leader by by the team they attract, but you can tell just as much as can they retain that team. And so when I look at leaderships and look at leaders, I always watch not so much can they put a team together, but can they keep that team together? Uh, because really good people, if you don't treat them right, if you don't give them the right opportunities and the right authority, they'll leave. Yeah. And the people that stay are the ones that don't have everywhere else to go. So work real hard with the team, trying to make sure that they're doing they're going the right direction, they got the resources they need, and at the same time, you have to put the vision out there. And just remind them the people paying our salaries, uh, you know, they live in McDowell County. They live on a two-run, two-lane road somewhere. So sometimes you gotta you gotta just remember that we don't work for the suits that that are running up and down these halls. We really work for the folks that that live out in West Virginia.

SPEAKER_01 20:36

Yeah, yeah, and that's the truth, yeah. How does your office impact everyday citizens of West Virginia?

SPEAKER_00 20:43

I think being a good steward of the financial situation, right? So to making sure that the that the monies are invested properly, making sure these programs are working the right way, having a big impact and and a big weighing in on the budget issues, right? What we do in this building uh impacts West Virginians positively or negatively. Do we have, you know, do we are we are spending money prop properly? Do we have the good schools? Are we paying teachers enough? Uh have we fixed the darn roads? I mean, all that stuff impacts people's lives. Um, most people in West Virginia, when I'll when I talk to people, that's one of the reasons we travel a lot, is they they want a few things, but they don't want a lot, right? They want good schools, they want good roads, they want to make sure the safety net is appropriate, and they want to make sure that we're not in the way of jobs coming to West Virginia. And other than that, they just want left alone. Yeah. Yeah. But but trying to focus on the things we're supposed to do and then trying to weigh in on things that we're we're not supposed to do. We need to get out of because we're not very good at it.

SPEAKER_01 21:43

Yeah, yeah. What level of control or input do you have on the state budget?

SPEAKER_00 21:48

Not a lot of control, but a lot of input. I have as much input as I want to have. Right. So so when I was uh Secretary of Revenue, my job was to put the budget together.

SPEAKER_02 21:57

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 21:58

So so I did that two and a half times. Which gave me a lot of knowledge on the budget. And I probably spent more time on the budget and learning the budget than anything else when I was Secretary of Revenue. And again, it's it's you know, we have a finite amount of money. Uh we're West Virginia, right? So we're never going to have an overabundance of money. Uh our per capita income is like $50,000, $51,000, $52,000, right? So try to do that math if you got two kids, right? And and so so West Virginians are working really, really hard to pay pay the taxes. We they need to make sure that the that we run government as efficient as government can be. And so that's where I weigh in on the budget. And I spend a lot of time talking about it the but uh from state government, we've expanded over the years to doing things that we just should not be in. And so we need to con contract, could contract. Like I was at a group this morning, I got to speak to a group with respect to workers' compensation. Uh, you know, go back 20 years ago, 20 years ago, West Junior ran the workers' comp program. And we didn't get out of the workers' comp business because we were charging employers too much, and we were. We didn't get out of that business because we weren't making money, no, we were losing our shirts. We got out of the business because we couldn't pay the bills. Yeah. And no cash reserves. Uh, that's probably the biggest tax cut. We talked about the governor's justice tax cut, but that's probably from a business standpoint, a really big tax cut because we've saved employers millions upon millions of dollars. We need to do that in some other aspects of state government. We've just got too big and too bloated, and we're inefficient, and we could put those monies to use in better places.

SPEAKER_01 23:34

Yeah. So kind of moving on here, I want to talk a little bit since you are s was so successful in entrepreneurship. Um, what is the experience or feeling of making that leap into entrepreneurship?

SPEAKER_00 23:47

Well, for me, it it probably wasn't a huge leap because I was always doing something. And and in my role models, you know, again, the family, everybody was in some kind of business. And so that was what we talked about at the kitchen table, and that's what they talked about when we went fishing or hunting, about they were doing this and doing that. So I saw what my grandfather went through, what my dad went through, and the uncles went through. And so I kind of always had that, you know, that entrepreneurial thing. And both grandparents are both sides. And and what we were unique also is my grandmothers on both sides worked in the business. They ran the offices. Wow. So that's just what everybody did, right? And and so so you know, you always had this entrepreneurial spirit, uh, and it's it's really it's really interesting. One of my best friends, closest friends, uh, he grew up in a totally different thing, so he's always asking, you know, uh, how'd you figure this out? That's what we always did. And so, uh, but but I think also in addition to that, uh the 20 years of CPA, um, I I spent a lot of time trying to understand business models and understand why the dress shop on one side of the street did really, really well, but the dress shop across the street didn't perform halls, right? Lost her shirts. Yeah. And and so I always been very inquisitive about that and trying to figure out what worked and what didn't work. And then when we got the chance to do something a little bit bigger, then you just you know apply, apply those things and and and and the things that the that worked and trying to understand exactly how how that how it works. But I think other than playing ball, I've just I've done it all my life. That's that's all we all we know. Yeah. But I think from that then you you learn a lot of things like you know, we don't have a high regard for government, we don't have a har high regard for people that are in our way because business folks they they have a calling. I may not think it's a calling, but at the end of the day, they have a calling. They're drawn to whatever this is. It may be it may be a bakery, it may be a construction business, whatever it is, uh, and they just want to grow their business. Yeah. They just want to, you know, uh feed more families and hire more people. And and very few of them do it for the money. It's just, hey, this is this is what God admired me, this is what I'm good at, this is what I want to do, and I want to continue doing it. And then anybody that gets in the way, we generally have a dim view of it.

SPEAKER_01 26:11

That's the truth. That is so the truth. What was your lowest moment as an entrepreneur and how did you push through it?

SPEAKER_00 26:19

Uh lowest moment, uh there's no question, lowest moment is uh about six months a year into the uh first uh healthcare business. Uh we had a really bad occurrence at one of our centers. And um, you know, when you're when you think about health care, you're talking about fallen people, taking care of fallen people. And somebody just made up, made it made a bad mistake, and there's a really bad outcome. Yeah. Um and that I think it changed my life, I think it changed me. Uh changed my approach to things. Uh but that was no question, that was the the lowest moment. Yeah. Um still remember still remember the patient's name. Yeah. And that was almost 30 years ago.

SPEAKER_01 27:01

Yeah. Yeah. Those things tend to stick with you. Yes. What's the key to building a team that performs well and believes in your vision?

SPEAKER_00 27:10

Um, you know, the what's the what's the old uh book is uh you want to get the right people on the bus in the right seats and so forth. I think what really helped me was playing uh playing team sports. Um and so I'm an old baseball player, an old football player, but more of more of a baseball player. And you know, to have a good baseball team, it's getting people in the right positions, get them in the right batting order, um, and and just learning that. And and then when you if you think about it how how different a generally I was first baseman, you know, so it means slow. Get the ball probably slow. But between me and and my good buddy was out in center field that could run like a deer. Right. And if we switched positions, it wouldn't work. And so but but when you play baseball, and again I did that from the time I was five, you you could just see the different talents. Well that's that's that's it. Right. And then again, when you read the Bible, right, you know, and the church is made up of so many different people that God gave us all different gifts, and for us to move the church forward, we have to have everybody because everybody's got a different gift to be able to move forward the church. So so just really applying that, understanding that everybody's a little different, everybody gets motivated a little different, uh, and trying to figure out what that is and make sure they get in the right fit. Because a lot of times if you if you have to let somebody go, it's because we made a hiring mistake. Yeah. Right? We didn't ask the right question, we didn't spend enough time with them, they didn't have the proper training. Um always felt like it was generally my my mistake, my fault because we put somebody in a place they couldn't. Uh very seldom was it they just were not performing. Although we, you know, we all go in the valleys, right? We all have really tough times in life. But putting that team together, investing in that team, spending time with that team, uh, that's what I did. So I was never a um I was never sitting at a desk person. So even when we got strung out over the years, you know, I spent 50 or 60,000 miles on the road because I wanted to look at people, I want to talk to people uh on the front lines, want to see what they needed, wanted to walk those halls, want to talk to those patients. Uh, and and that's when you really know what what you need. And then I tried to train my my trick my senior leadership the same way is we've got to go talk to people, we've got to go see what they're doing, uh, we've got to make sure they got the resources to perform. We've got to make sure that nobody's working 60 hours a week because it's not sustainable. I mean leadership you can work fifty. I think people can work 45-50 and still have a uh the proper balance. We get beyond that, you know, eventually what's gonna happen, they're either gonna burn out or their spouse is gonna say enough and they're gone, right? So so just trying to make sure that everybody's got the right the right balance. And uh, you know, and our our professions are really, really important, but they're you know, they're secondary. That's the other thing, is you've got to keep the right uh the right focus. You know, what's important to all of us is our faith and family. That's that's that's one and two. And so having that right balance and the way we looked at it is when we recruited somebody to come on, we kind of adopted that family. And we became very important to that family. And so just making sure you get the you know you get everything in the right order. Uh so we we we we worked hard to be a Christian-based company. That didn't mean we didn't make mistakes, didn't mean we sometimes said the wrong things or do the wrong things, but we tried to use that as our base and tried to tried to hold to that. And um, but um that's probably good on the leadership side.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Yeah, no, that's that's a m that's great advice. Everybody's got a different viewpoint, but you know, ultimately it takes pressing through and and continually having that, you know, that go like you say, going on the front lines. And I think that's what really uh really shows a distinct difference in a leader, you know, when he's willing to get in the trenches, see what's going on, and really see what the front lines is really experiencing. Um so as we kind of move on here, I kind of wanted to get um your view a little bit more on a nationwide uh type interest. So why do you feel West Virginia is still important on a national interest level?

SPEAKER_00 31:15

Oh, it's it's it's the resources that God gave us, right? So uh uh it's it's our fossil fuel fuels, right? We we are of Saudi the Saudi Arabia of America, so whether you're talking about coal, you're talking about natural gas, you're you're talking about oil, we've got it here. And then you know you go timber and water as well. Uh we've got it all here, uh, without a doubt. And and as we see this big need for energy that's came back in the last few years and sounds like it's just really going to grow exponentially, uh this is the place people are common, right?

SPEAKER_02 31:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 31:45

Um and that's gonna make West Virginia really, really different and put us well positioned us. And in addition to, it's just our geograph geo geography. Uh sometimes we don't like all the mountains, uh, but we sure like being two two hours, two and a half hours from Charlotte in one part of the state, and you know, an hour from Pittsburgh and another part of the state, probably thirty minutes from another part of the state, and and being in that DC market. Uh so there's just so many things that that we have around us that makes it makes it a very desirous place to uh to stay. And I think our sense of community is is just is just huge. And it's something you just you can't buy, you can't duplicate, and that you know, that's that Appalachian culture. So, you know, we've got a few people that run around West Virginia and they want to dwell on the negatives, but uh we've got so many more positives than they shoe, they shoe negatives. But we are the only state in Appalachian, so we've got some of those challenges.

SPEAKER_01 32:34

Yeah, yeah. Uh I think going back to the community, I think the biggest thing is just this sense of everybody banding together. You know, if we look at the flood that hit Southern West Virginia really hard, and you really could see the band of community, just everybody pouring in the support from outside of our community. Um, that was really well, well spoken uh from everybody. But how do you how do federal financial policies like interest rates or debt management affect how you manage West Virginia's finances?

SPEAKER_00 33:05

Well, the interest uh in first of all, I think inflation impacts government as much as it impacts uh individuals. Okay. Um so the cost of providing government services is is continuing to go up. And so we've had an extraordinary amount of inflation over the past few years and it seems to be really sticky. Uh we know what that's done to households, right? The the the price of gasoline, the price of medical care, the price of food, I mean just whatever you want to talk about, the price of electricity, uh, but it's also really impacting the state. There's some places inflation kind of helps the state, but overall it's really been tougher. I mean, just paving a mile road is probably twice as much as it as it was five years ago. Uh buying an ambulance is, I think maybe three times as much as it was a few years ago. So, so you know, inflation is is caused by the federal government, uh, but when when when they cause inflation to federal government level, it costs all of us, uh, without a doubt. So just trying to figure out how to how to um react, how to how to manage through that, uh, we're much better if we get inflation down to around one and a half, two percent. Uh but this this this three and four is really making it hard to do that. And just think if you're a you're a pensioner. So you're a pensioner, the way West Union works, with your pensioner, when you retire, you get it, whatever your number is. And so say it's $3,000 a month. But there's no uh cost of inflation deal. So it's 10 years from now, it's still $3,000 a month. So we've really hurt our retirees, it's really hurting our retirees. And even my my mother's 86, and she she said a few weeks ago, she said, do you realize how hard people pay work to pay their pay the taxes? Right. So she's reminding me that people work really, really hard to pay their taxes. We need to make sure we spend it more efficiently.

SPEAKER_01 34:49

Yeah, I think that's something that a lot of people don't look at, even statewide, is is the retirement. Yeah, that's so true. Um how where do you see opportunities for better coordination between the U.S. Treasury and the state treasurers like yourself?

SPEAKER_00 35:03

Well, I I think the uh treasure uh the Secretary of Treasurer Bessett, I think he's an absolute rock star, by the way. He's he's I think he's brilliant. And and I I I think I also wish he had more than four years. Uh but I think he he's working really hard to get Washington and I think to get all the different um initial guys up there focusing on what inflation is doing to regular Americans. And he talks a lot about that. So from our standpoint, it's listening to what he's putting out, throwing in some input from from time to time. Um but these policies, these these uh where we have the the you know almost a $40 trillion debt, there's a real impact to real people. And so we have this divergence going on where um uh the higher income folks are doing way too well because so much of their wealth is based upon the stock market. Yeah. Uh but then if you're a normal person, right, and Western Union is made up of normal people, uh, they're not participating in as in much into that deal. So how do we kind of work work through that? Uh he talks a lot about AI and what's the impact of AI going to have on a typical West Virginian. And there's some good parts, but there's possibly some negative parts. So just continuing to talk about it, uh continue to communicate, continue to listen. I think one of the interesting things was is you know, the elimination of the penny, that was kind of kind of a excuse me, necessary, but also kind of interesting as well. But you know, in typical government fashion, we stopped making pennies when we finally realize it's costing us, I think, four cents to make a penny. And so when it's three cents wasn't up, two cents wasn't up, and now four cents, okay, let's stop. This is nuts.

SPEAKER_01 36:42

Yeah. Uh one thing I do want to go back to, um you mentioned the stock market and then you know the debt, uh the 40 trillion that we're in. Do you think that's going to have a way on the market or eventually cause the market to crash?

SPEAKER_00 36:57

I don't know that it causes crash, but it but I do think it causes inflation. Because what's happening is from a federal government standpoint, we're spending much more money than we're taking in. In other words, we're we're we're making dollars just to pay the bills and so forth. And that in itself creates inflation. The easiest way to get inflation down is we we get a balanced budget. So somehow, some way we've got to get to this balanced budget. I I think what we're doing to our grandchildren, to our great-grandchildren, you know, to my age, is absolutely horrendous, right? So we're spending money that they got to pay back. And at some point, we need to be responsible adults and and and get a handle on this. But you know, Washington's broken. Um we do a lot of uh performative stuff in DC these days. We do a lot of uh talking past each other, but we don't really seem to be able to get together to fix real problems. I mean, we can't they can't even pass a budget, right, to pay the uh some of the homeland security people, right? I mean that how how dysfunctional is is that. Yeah uh but at some point it is going to create problems. Uh I mean it's already creating problems, but at some point it could very well could could create some bigger problems. Nobody knows because we've never had this much debt before. And there's a lot of opinions about where and when. But generally when you have uh you know a bad turn, it generally happens quick. Uh and so we just need to see. But I think best it's trying to get get an answer to it and trying to get people to start focusing on it. But you know, it's been a long time since anybody's ran for Congress, ran for Senate, and said, Let me let's talk about the budget. Right. Yeah, yeah. So maybe so that when we start seeing the people running for that, we'll know that it's it's risen enough in the polls that people care about it. But right now, I think uh we just don't have a focus on that at this point.

SPEAKER_01 38:47

Yeah. One thing I wanted to go back to also, too. You mentioned AI, especially with West Virginia. What's your thoughts about data centers in West Virginia and how do you see the negative and positive effects on the West Virginia economy itself with that?

SPEAKER_00 39:01

Um we have seen there have been hundreds of data data centers built around the country, right? So, you know, we're a little bit slow getting to things. So in the last six months, probably the last year, I know we had a couple of projects um uh when we left Governor Justice office that uh uh after we left office they didn't happen. My my biggest problem with the current regulatory scheme is we've taken out local control. Yeah. There needs to be some kind of local control. Basically, the bill we pass is I understand it that basically one person gets to decide whether it's a yes or no. And that's not what we do in America, that's not what we do uh in West Virginia. So I think we've we've got to go back and revisit that bill to bring some sort of local input in it. It could be and I don't know exactly what it could be, but it could be just a just the county by county they vote. They want them, they don't want them, right? Um but somehow we have to bring the local people back back in. You know, from Western, what we one thing we just can't we we do not we can't take it when we're told what to do. And that's what this bill does, is we're told, hey, it's gonna go to this county, it's gonna go to that county, and the county commissioners have no say into right, the the mayors don't have his say into it, uh, the local planning people. I mean, there's a lot of good folks that do local stuff, uh, but they get no say at all. And and so we've got to kind of work through that to bring them back into the solution, back into the the deal. I think the other fault of that bill was that it took the money from the the potential money tax made from the counties, from st from the county school boards who are struggling these days and brought it all back to the state. I just think that's wrong. Uh we have a we have a property tax system uh that's worked for a hundred years, we need to continue to let it work. And you know, we've got four or five oil and gas counties that uh have uh lots and lots of money, they don't take any money from school funding authorities, school funding. Uh it'd be nice to have some other counties like that. Yeah. So so we'll probably talk a lot about this summer and fall about, hey, let's bring some local control back, uh, let's return the money back to the counties and cities. Um and so I think if people have more input, they'll be more accepting. But when you're told what to do, uh Western you just don't handle that well.

SPEAKER_01 41:25

Yeah. Well, there's no sense of uh checks and balances.

SPEAKER_00 41:28

There's no there's no checks and balances, there's no impact. I mean, there you know, they had this big uh meeting a few weeks ago in uh northern Berkeley County, and uh I think people were mad as much as any because they weren't consulted.

unknown 41:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:41

Right. In every other state that has data centers, as far as I understand it, they all require local input.

unknown 41:48

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 41:49

So Northern Virginia has probably 200 data centers, uh, but you still gotta go see the county commissioners or whatever they call them, and or you gotta go see the city people and and work through them. Um so we can do both. We can we can we can have data centers, we can have local control. Um we can also have it where the money stays where our property tax system says it should stay.

SPEAKER_01 42:12

Yeah, yeah. So kind of moving into the last segment here, um more so on state policies and growth. Where do you see the economic growth in West Virginia over the next five years?

SPEAKER_00 42:24

So uh a lot of it's gonna be related to the to the natural gas boom, right? So so so basically the Marcellus shell, uh, and then after that would be the Utica, eventually they'll go back down southern Southern Virginia. We've just got so much gas that people are coming to West Virginia to get it. Our goal, uh the West Virginia's goal, our challenge is to be able to use that gas in West Virginia and not send it all out by pipelines. So uh, you know, there's been a couple of natural gas power plants um announced. Uh those are good, those are great things. We're gonna use that in West Virginia, we're gonna create jobs in West Virginia, we need to keep, you know, keep that going. Uh we need, you know, they're building some more gas pipelines, so I think Newcore is going to be a big user of gas. So it's definitely gonna be driven for that. But we can't get so um kind of intoxicated or excited about those type of things that we don't continue to work on diversifying our economy. Yeah. So I think one of the really good things we did in the Justice Administration is work on diversifying it. So whether it's Newcore Time at CMC Metals, uh, Form Energy, bring in different types of businesses and different types of manufacturing into West Virginia so we can diversify. Um, you know, the fossil fuel industry is great, but it goes up and it goes down in price, it goes up and goes down in in jobs, and we've seen that in our entire cycle. If we can use those resources here, we'll be a little bit more insulated. So definitely that. And then, you know, I have a heart for for Southern West Virginia, and and we need more focus on Southern West Virginia. We need to return the focus back. So finishing those road projects, absolutely very, very important for West Virginia. Working with clean for clean water. West Virginia is interesting. So if you go to Berkeley County, they have an abundance of growth. And so they have all those growth challenges. You go to Southern West Virginia, we're we've lost so much population, and unfortunately, we'll continue to lose population. The only way we turn that around is better infrastructure. So we have to bring better infrastructure to Southern West Virginia to give those, particularly those coal counties and cities, the opportunity to grow, to get their firm footing and to get back. And I'm worried that we're kind of turning away a little bit. But those counties, those uh seven, eight counties, uh maybe there's a couple more, uh, they fueled West Virginia for almost a century. They paid the taxes that everybody else um uh were able to benefit from. We can't turn our back on them. And if that sounds a little preachy, that's probably because I heard that from Governor Justice about every other day.

SPEAKER_01 45:01

Yeah, no, no, no. And it's the truth. It really is. What policies or actions are needed for West Virginia to reach its full potential as a state?

SPEAKER_00 45:10

I think uh if I'd say anything at all, it's it's to get our state out of the way. Um there's too many decisions in West Virginia that that are made in this building that I'm sitting in. The more of that that we can push out to to the counties, to the cities, uh the more of that that they don't need to ask anybody. I mean, when you look at uh uh our surrounding states and you're wondering why in uh Green County uh PA there's so much development, so much stuff going on there, or or you're the other side of the pen handle in in in Ohio, there's so much going on there. Uh and you say, why why is because it's easier. Yeah. It's easier. They get quicker answers, they can go faster, then that's why they're going there. It's not that they don't want to be in West Virginia. We make it really, really hard to do business because we have such a controlled uh economy and so many things you have to give permission out of the state capital. So if we could undo a lot of that, we'll go further faster.

SPEAKER_01 46:05

Yeah. Yeah. And that actually follows up right up my next question. What advice would you give people who want to build a successful career or business in West Virginia?

SPEAKER_00 46:15

I think a couple of things. Uh what we you know, we live in the greatest country in America, uh greatest country in the world, but we're also in the in the best state in America. I think that this is a is a really phenomenal place to grow a business. And and we're seeing that a lot. We're seeing a lot of small businesses all around the state uh do a lot of good things. So so I think the the opportunity is here, uh, I think the money's here, um, and it's just really trying to do everything we can to get out of the way and to help these folks. So, you know, chase your dream. Uh West Union is a really cool place to be. Uh West Juniors are loyal, so once you get a customer, they don't they don't leave you real real easy. And and I think again, one of the things for traveling around West Via is fun is to see all these small businesses stopping up, starting up. Um that's who we are. We need to do more focus there. So I do think it's a great place to raise family, to grow, to grow a business. I think our best days are ahead. We're going to continue to fight to kind of loosen the reins uh from the State Capitol to give people more opportunity. Uh but you can just see it, you can feel it. Um but there are some things we have to do here in State Capitol, and hopefully we'll get more focus on those things over the next over the next couple of years. But uh, you know, if I was starting again, this is where I'd go. I wouldn't uh uh you know I'd spent my career here. Um a lot of my friends and colleagues have, and we've uh built wonderful businesses and and did it in a place where we have a lot of uh a lot of a lot of family and wonderful, wonderful churches.

SPEAKER_01 47:45

Yeah. No place like home care.

SPEAKER_00 47:46

No place like home.

SPEAKER_01 47:47

So as we start to wrap this up, where do you see your career in the next five years?

SPEAKER_00 47:52

Well, five years ago, if you asked me that question, I would have told you that I was gonna work at Stone Rise uh until uh they carried me out the door. So that that five-year plan didn't work very well. Um so I don't I don't know. Um, you know, I'm healthy, uh we're having fun. Um my life my wife and I were very blessed with six children and four grandchildren, and uh so we like to travel, we like to go see the kids, and so I think right now we're gonna keep doing what we're gonna do. Uh, you know, God will either open doors or closing doors, and we're at peace with whatever that becomes. We love being state treasure, it's a lot of fun. Yeah, and and I think we make a little bit of a difference, so maybe we'll do this for a little bit longer, or or maybe we'll go to Anthony's Creek and go go hiking. So we'll we'll find out.

SPEAKER_01 48:36

Yeah, yeah. So in your own words, and I I have gotten this is a common question, but this is a specific question that I ask at ever at the end of every interview, um, because every person has a different perspective of it, but you can gain knowledge from each person. In your own words, how would you define success?

SPEAKER_00 48:57

Success is um i you find that in your heart. So you so you find that whether you have peace that you're that you're going direct the right direction. But it's it's not it's not money, it's not a balance sheet, it's not an income statement. Um there's always a bigger hill to climb. But really, are you having an impact on people? Uh whether whether it's your team or the people that you're serving, are you making a difference in your community? Those are things that really count. And sometimes when you look back on life, you you wonder, you know, who had the biggest impact? Was it the uh uh the guy that ran the big biggest uh business in town, or was it the third grade school teacher or the little league baseball coach? And a lot of times I think it's the third grade school teacher or the little league baseball coach.

SPEAKER_01 49:39

Yeah, yeah, I completely agree. Well, Mr. Treasurer, once again, thank you so much for joining us on the podcast. We can't see what you we can't wait to see what you're gonna do in the next uh couple of years here with West Virginia. So thank you so much. And with that, thank you guys for joining us. Uh and until next time, we'll see you guys in the next one.